WEBVTT - Why Is Uber Under So Many Investigations?

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm pim Fox.

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<v Speaker 1>Along with my co host Lisa Bramowitz. Each day we

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<v Speaker 1>Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. Uber,

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<v Speaker 1>the scandal ridden driving a ride sharing service, is uh

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<v Speaker 1>evidently reportedly the subject of two additional, formerly undisclosed investigations,

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<v Speaker 1>and here to talk about why this company has been

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<v Speaker 1>uniquely targeted by regulators and lawmakers. I want to bring

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<v Speaker 1>in Max Chafkin, who writes for Bloomberg Business Week and

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<v Speaker 1>joins us UH, to talk a little bit about this. So, Max,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, what is it about Uber that has made

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<v Speaker 1>it subject to so many investigations? Right? So, as you said,

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<v Speaker 1>we we've learned. My colleague Eric Newcomer reported earlier this

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<v Speaker 1>morning that first of all, there is an additional criminal

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<v Speaker 1>probe that's looking into Uber's alleged theft of trade secrets

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<v Speaker 1>from Google, and another one looking at price fixing. I

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<v Speaker 1>think the answer to the question I asked of of

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<v Speaker 1>sort of what was going on and and this is

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<v Speaker 1>in the piece, but the company had kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>culture of I guess you might say rule bending, uh

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<v Speaker 1>and and and some might call it legal innovation. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's that's a term that some people inside

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<v Speaker 1>of you Uber had used might call it cheating, right, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And that's and that's something I think we've seen before

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<v Speaker 1>in the financial services industry, where these financial services innovations

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes uh, you know, push into areas of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>breaking ethical rules or even criminality. Well, Max, I wont

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<v Speaker 1>if you get to tell us about the executive ranks

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<v Speaker 1>of Uber. Who's there to actually fix the company and

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<v Speaker 1>then justify its multibillion all the valuation so so uh

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<v Speaker 1>recently Travis Kalenik Uh this this the former CEO, a

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<v Speaker 1>guy who sort of most closely associated with the founding

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<v Speaker 1>of Uber. Step down. There's a new CEO, the former

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<v Speaker 1>Expedia CEO, Dera Coastra Shah. He hope hope on getting

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<v Speaker 1>that one right, um, but on the pronunciation. But he's

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<v Speaker 1>been basically doing a an apology tour and and sort

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<v Speaker 1>of going around from to to offer, from office to

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<v Speaker 1>office to office, trying to sort of turn the page

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<v Speaker 1>and say, this is not going to be a company

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<v Speaker 1>that sort of by default bends the rules. And we're

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<v Speaker 1>learning that he is looking into some of these sort

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<v Speaker 1>of you might call them counterintelligence programs. It appears that

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<v Speaker 1>Uber had kind of almost its own personal, sort of

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<v Speaker 1>private spy service that was run by the former General Council,

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<v Speaker 1>the former Chief Security officer. Right. So, just to get

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit more specific about what the allegations are,

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<v Speaker 1>we talked about their program called Hell that that's what

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<v Speaker 1>they named, that basically tracked other competing ridesharing services where

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<v Speaker 1>they were to allow Uber drivers to go compete with

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<v Speaker 1>them more directly. They also kind of cloaked themselves sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>Uber drivers and would arrive instead of some of the

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<v Speaker 1>other competing rides sharing services. These are among uh, some

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<v Speaker 1>of the services that they provided that are being targeted

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<v Speaker 1>by regulators. Yeah, I mean when you when you take

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<v Speaker 1>a step back, you brought up Hell there. There was

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<v Speaker 1>also a program, similar program in Australia that was designed

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<v Speaker 1>to it seems like spy on maybe you might say

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<v Speaker 1>UH an Asian uh a taxi service UM. Basically in

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<v Speaker 1>all sorts of ways, it appears that that engineers inside

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<v Speaker 1>of Uber kind of broke with norms as far as

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<v Speaker 1>privacy and and uh sort of uh, you know, data

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<v Speaker 1>securities concerns. So so for instance, they were routinely uh

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<v Speaker 1>calling cabs from from Lift, a competitor, and and basically

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<v Speaker 1>trying to hire those drivers. They were routinely scraping data

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<v Speaker 1>from other services, and and this this thing called gray Ball,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a subject of another investigation. They were sort

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<v Speaker 1>of routinely trying to identify police and law enforcement officers

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<v Speaker 1>and try to make it more difficult for those people

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<v Speaker 1>to use the app, basically giving law enforcement um fake

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<v Speaker 1>data allegedly. So it's a whole bunch of it's a

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<v Speaker 1>whole swirl of things. You start to add it up,

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<v Speaker 1>and and obviously it looks like a culture of uh

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<v Speaker 1>that that's problematics at least, you know, Max said, it

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<v Speaker 1>makes me maybe considered that you know, with a hefty valuation, Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>may be considered that How is that it justified when

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<v Speaker 1>you have competitors that may offer exactly the same kind

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<v Speaker 1>of service without these legal problems? I mean, what competitive

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<v Speaker 1>advantage do they have that they got a list of

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<v Speaker 1>clients and everyone has the app, but everyone's got the

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<v Speaker 1>other app. And they're the same clients. Yeah, And I

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<v Speaker 1>mean this this gets to a pretty significant issue for Uber,

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<v Speaker 1>which is, right now, they are trying to raise money,

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<v Speaker 1>raise a big boatload of money from soft Bank, including

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<v Speaker 1>some of this money is going to buy out existing

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<v Speaker 1>shareholders in an auction, and we don't know exactly what

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<v Speaker 1>the valuation is going to be. Is it going to

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<v Speaker 1>be you know, closer to to Uber sort of on

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<v Speaker 1>paper valuation around seventy billion, or is it going to

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<v Speaker 1>be more like fifty build billion or something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>And and and the fact is that I think I

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<v Speaker 1>think investors might might be asking questions about sort of

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<v Speaker 1>how brittle is Uber's business, how how how secure? Why

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<v Speaker 1>not invest in lift or why not invest in any

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<v Speaker 1>of the other rides sharing services? Because the thing is,

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<v Speaker 1>it's supposed to be asset light, right, So you don't

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<v Speaker 1>put all your capital into the automobiles. You let the

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<v Speaker 1>drivers assume a lot of the risk. And you want

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<v Speaker 1>a valuation of a tech company, Well, there are a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of other people that can figure that out, now, right.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean if you the thing is, if you believe

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<v Speaker 1>in the business, and you believe that that these companies

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<v Speaker 1>create value, you still acknowledge the Uber is much bigger

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<v Speaker 1>than any of these other companies. It has a bigger network,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's a better known brand. Although Lift is competitive

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<v Speaker 1>in certain cities, Uber is kind of the biggest, UH

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<v Speaker 1>of these apps in most of the most of the

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<v Speaker 1>cities where rides sharing companies play. At what point, though, Max,

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<v Speaker 1>does this start to snowball where you have regulators targeting

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<v Speaker 1>the business both because of some potential infractions as well

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<v Speaker 1>as mounting opposition from taxi services that have been long standing. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>it is starting to snowball. I mean what we saw

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<v Speaker 1>in London where where regulators in London who had kind

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<v Speaker 1>of given Uber the okay, sort of we're reading this

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<v Speaker 1>news that was happening in the US about this program

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<v Speaker 1>gray Ball, which I mentioned earlier, and said hey, wait

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<v Speaker 1>a minute, we're not okay with this, and they basically

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<v Speaker 1>announced that they were taking Uber's license away. And now

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<v Speaker 1>they've sort of reopened negotiations. They're trying to negotiate a

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<v Speaker 1>new deal with Uber. Uh. There's there there rumblings that

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<v Speaker 1>the same thing could happen in Brazil. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's important to remember and and Uber was very good

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<v Speaker 1>at sort of playing local politics, like going from city

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<v Speaker 1>to city figuring out how to get their service legal

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<v Speaker 1>or basically pushing and forcing regulators hands to make it legal.

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<v Speaker 1>But each of these cities have very specific local issues,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's not like it's a done deal to any

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<v Speaker 1>any mayor anywhere around the world. If if, if he

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<v Speaker 1>or she decides it's popular to go after Uber can

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<v Speaker 1>do that, and there's not much Uber can do, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's it could potentially, especially if criminal inquiries lawsuits continue,

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<v Speaker 1>amount this won't go away. It's not like Uber is

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<v Speaker 1>legal everywhere and it's gonna be legal everywhere forever. Just quickly,

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<v Speaker 1>because I know this is slightly off topic, but you

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<v Speaker 1>also have been writing a lot about Facebook and legal issues.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you noticed that the technology industry now faces the

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<v Speaker 1>legal same legal issues that maybe the non tech world

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<v Speaker 1>had faced, you know, decades earlier. Yeah. Absolutely, And I

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<v Speaker 1>think there is an interesting sort of Facebook connection here.

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<v Speaker 1>The the Uber chief security officer, Joe Sullivan, was at Facebook,

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<v Speaker 1>and you wonder how common are these kind of internal

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<v Speaker 1>spy agencies. I mean, Uber had a lot of consumer data,

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<v Speaker 1>but it is not the only company in Silicon Valley

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<v Speaker 1>with of data that's ultra competitive that has been pushing

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<v Speaker 1>in all sorts of ways, and I think we have

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<v Speaker 1>to look at this and ask, you know, how common

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<v Speaker 1>were these practices, you know, industry wide, And I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think we know the answer yet. All right, well, we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna look to you for the answer. I think you

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<v Speaker 1>got almost you know, at least a couple next stories

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<v Speaker 1>out of that one. Thanks very much for joining us.

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<v Speaker 1>Max Chafkin is a columnist for a Bloomberg Business Week.

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<v Speaker 1>A writer for a Bloomberg giving us some details about

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<v Speaker 1>what's going on with Uber and those additional criminal investigations. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>there is a one hundred and eight year old company

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<v Speaker 1>that a lot of people in America have never heard of.

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<v Speaker 1>It is now called Mo Mochi ice Cream, and the

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<v Speaker 1>chief executive officer joins us now, Craig Burger. Thank you

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<v Speaker 1>so much for joining us. You became CEO about two

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<v Speaker 1>months ago and had previously been uh, the CFO of

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<v Speaker 1>the company. What excited you about the opportunity of leading

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<v Speaker 1>this particular company. Yeah, I think the fact that we're

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<v Speaker 1>innovation in the snacking category is everything I needed to

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<v Speaker 1>hear and see. So the company has done a phenomenal

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<v Speaker 1>job taking a very old item like mochi ice cream,

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<v Speaker 1>and have really targeted the millennial consumer to bring it

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<v Speaker 1>to the masses. So we're really changing the snacking world

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<v Speaker 1>one mochi ball at a time. All right, So can

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<v Speaker 1>you tell us what exactly is a moochi? Many people

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<v Speaker 1>may know it as a Japanese dessert. You're calling it

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<v Speaker 1>a snack the form fact. I'm sorry I have to

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<v Speaker 1>use this on my son tonight. I'm changing the world

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<v Speaker 1>one mochi ball at a time. You know, when they

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<v Speaker 1>start giving me flack about anything gone so well, they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to give you a cooler of it later on,

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<v Speaker 1>of course. And I want to just tell people how

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<v Speaker 1>it's made and and a little bit of the history

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<v Speaker 1>of the company, because if you're from Los Angeles at all,

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<v Speaker 1>you're very familiar with the heritage of this company. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>let me start. So, the company is a hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>eight years old, uh. And it was a confectionery to

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<v Speaker 1>start so, dealing in primarily Japanese bakery items. And the

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<v Speaker 1>founders invented basically mochi ice cream, which is a premium

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<v Speaker 1>ice cream surrounded by sweet rice stough uh. And that

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<v Speaker 1>brand was under the Mikawaya name and it had primarily

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<v Speaker 1>traditional Japanese flavors, So people who tried the product loved it,

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<v Speaker 1>but the awareness was very small. So then in two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand sixteen, Century Park Capital private equity out of Los

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<v Speaker 1>Angeles purchased the company, and they had this vision of

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<v Speaker 1>taking a very ethnic snack and really taking it to

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<v Speaker 1>the masses by creating a brand new brand, the Mimo

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<v Speaker 1>Mochi ice Cream brand, and coming out with more traditional

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<v Speaker 1>flavors that we know, like strawberry chocolate, cookies and cream,

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<v Speaker 1>and really targeting the millennial consumer something that had never

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<v Speaker 1>happened before. You mean, rather than red bean paste or

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<v Speaker 1>green tea mochi. Uh, they want to get more American.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm wondering, where is the market for mochi ice cream.

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<v Speaker 1>Is it simply in the big cities or is there

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<v Speaker 1>greater acceptance of more quote unquote ethnic foods in other

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<v Speaker 1>places outside of the city's okay, great question. Let me

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<v Speaker 1>start out with the market itself. So Mochi ice cream

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<v Speaker 1>falls under the frozen novelty category, which is about a

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<v Speaker 1>three billion dollar category, and that category has been flatted

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<v Speaker 1>down slightly over the last couple of years. Mochi ice

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<v Speaker 1>cream is part of that category. Mochi ice cream is

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<v Speaker 1>the category within there that it has the most growth

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<v Speaker 1>over the last year or two, primarily driven by Mymo

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<v Speaker 1>Mochi ice Cream. It's definitely a coastal brand. We started

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<v Speaker 1>out in l A and really in the last seven

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<v Speaker 1>months have blown up My Mo Mochi ice Cream nationwide.

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<v Speaker 1>But in l A, San Francisco, Seattle, and now New York,

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<v Speaker 1>we're really blowing it up. Craig, what's the biggest challenge

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<v Speaker 1>for you to expand awareness of this brand? I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>what have you been most surprised at with respect to

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<v Speaker 1>the difficulty. Well, it's pretty interesting because most people you

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<v Speaker 1>talk to have never heard of Mochi ice cream. So

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<v Speaker 1>the first thing you try and do is have them

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<v Speaker 1>try it. So you know, We've hired a marketing team,

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<v Speaker 1>We've got a strategy in place to really increase the

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<v Speaker 1>trial and awareness of the product, and part of that

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<v Speaker 1>is being done through what we call the Mochi Bar concept.

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<v Speaker 1>And we're really we're the first ice cream company to

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<v Speaker 1>break away from the ice cream freezer in the retailers

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<v Speaker 1>and go into the perimeter of the food stores with

0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:56.080
<v Speaker 1>a self serve Mochi bar, and that's a paid sampling

0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:59.920
<v Speaker 1>event because consumers are paying anywhere from a dollar fifty

0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.880
<v Speaker 1>two dollars for Amachi ball and trying it on the spot.

0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:09.319
<v Speaker 1>And it's usually the normal reaction. The first time they

0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.680
<v Speaker 1>bite into it, it's wow, that's kind of weird, and

0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.200
<v Speaker 1>then the second bite is, oh my god, I love

0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.920
<v Speaker 1>this stuff. So it's uh, it's a great thing to see,

0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's something that is really uh, taking the

0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:28.280
<v Speaker 1>stores by surprise and building overnight. Was it a conscious

0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.240
<v Speaker 1>effort to turn it into a snack as opposed to

0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.280
<v Speaker 1>a dessert and therefore the smaller form factor. Yes, so

0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.760
<v Speaker 1>we see it as a snack. You know, millennials snack

0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.319
<v Speaker 1>at least four times a day. Uh, this is a

0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:44.359
<v Speaker 1>perfect product. And ten calories per hundred and ten calories.

0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:49.840
<v Speaker 1>It's handheld, it's portable, it's grabbing go. It fits their lifestyle.

0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.600
<v Speaker 1>You know, we have fifteen or so flavors. What does

0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.360
<v Speaker 1>it cost? Uh? You know, it comes by the ball.

0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:59.600
<v Speaker 1>If you buy an e Moachi bar would be anywhere

0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.240
<v Speaker 1>from all fifty to two dollars a ball in a

0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:06.080
<v Speaker 1>six pack. The retail is about five or dollar a ball.

0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.160
<v Speaker 1>I love how targeted millennials are. They like snacks, not

0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:11.560
<v Speaker 1>desserts because deserts are too fattening, and they like it

0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:15.960
<v Speaker 1>small and they like it quick. Who right there, you go, Well,

0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.400
<v Speaker 1>you've definitely defined the market, and I think you're gonna

0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:20.400
<v Speaker 1>start eating some of these moments. I must say that

0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.360
<v Speaker 1>we gotta leave it there. Thanks very much, Craig Burger.

0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:39.320
<v Speaker 1>He is the chief executive of Momochi ice Cream. NAFTA

0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:43.320
<v Speaker 1>North American Free Trade Agreement five hundred and twenty five

0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.640
<v Speaker 1>billion dollars. That's a total amount of trade between the

0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.840
<v Speaker 1>United States and Mexico. Mexico is the number three trading

0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:54.200
<v Speaker 1>partner of the US, right after Canada, also a signatory

0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.360
<v Speaker 1>to NAFTA. Here to tell us about the renegotiation of NAFTA.

0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.000
<v Speaker 1>There's our own White House correspondent. We've got Jennifer Jacobs

0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.920
<v Speaker 1>joining us from Washington, d C. Jennifer, maybe just outline

0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.960
<v Speaker 1>exactly what is scheduled to happen today, who's going to

0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:10.160
<v Speaker 1>be there and what do they really aim to accomplish. Uh. First,

0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:14.360
<v Speaker 1>it's Jennifer Epstein of on our White House team. Just

0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.840
<v Speaker 1>wanted to make sure that's clear to that people aren't confused.

0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:22.560
<v Speaker 1>Uh if they know our voices. Um so Uh. Prime

0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.280
<v Speaker 1>Minister Trudeau is coming to the White House a little

0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:27.960
<v Speaker 1>bit later today to meet with President Trump. It's their

0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.640
<v Speaker 1>fourth meeting since President Trump took office at the beginning

0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.840
<v Speaker 1>of the year. Um. And and this is the same

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.600
<v Speaker 1>time that there are a whole bunch of uh you

0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:39.600
<v Speaker 1>know that that that we're in this fourth round of

0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.360
<v Speaker 1>trade negotiation talks. Uh, and that's happening here in d

0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:48.560
<v Speaker 1>C as well. Uh. You know, we're just anticipating in

0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.920
<v Speaker 1>the US to continue to take a pretty hard line

0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.800
<v Speaker 1>on some things that they that that they're kind of

0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:58.360
<v Speaker 1>that the U. S officials kind of expect Mexico and

0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:04.760
<v Speaker 1>Canada to be relucked into, including substantially raising the requirement

0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:09.200
<v Speaker 1>of the requirements for rules of origin for vehicles. Um,

0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:12.760
<v Speaker 1>you know what share has to be uh of the

0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:14.440
<v Speaker 1>of the vehicle has to be built built in the

0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:18.480
<v Speaker 1>United States. Jennifer and the rest of NAFTA. Jennifer, I'm

0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:25.320
<v Speaker 1>struck by President Trump versus Congress, versus his diplomats. Is

0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:30.560
<v Speaker 1>President Trump carrying the weight of a unified group of

0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:36.440
<v Speaker 1>politicians and policymakers as he renegotiates NAFTA or is he

0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.800
<v Speaker 1>increasingly isolated in some of his demands? You know, I

0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.080
<v Speaker 1>think this is a situation where in order that it's

0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:47.360
<v Speaker 1>increasingly isolated, I think it's been isolated all along. That

0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:51.880
<v Speaker 1>that while there are certainly a big populist tervor uh

0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.720
<v Speaker 1>to pull out of NAFTA, or that NAFTA the bad

0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.600
<v Speaker 1>deal and it must be renegotiated, that there are so

0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.920
<v Speaker 1>many Uh, there's so many US lawmakers who are who

0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.000
<v Speaker 1>really would not do not actually support going all the

0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:10.440
<v Speaker 1>way and getting out of NAFTA. You know, for this president,

0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.639
<v Speaker 1>seems like threats are not just threats, but are It

0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:15.600
<v Speaker 1>depends on what it is, of course, you know, if

0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:18.879
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about nukes, who knows. But uh, you know,

0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.280
<v Speaker 1>threats on something like this are threats that he seems

0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.560
<v Speaker 1>poised to follow through on, just the way he has

0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:29.840
<v Speaker 1>initiated the process of pulling out of the Paris Climate Agreement. Uh,

0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.960
<v Speaker 1>just as you know we are anticipating some kind of

0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:38.640
<v Speaker 1>reversal from the um Iran deal. Uh. These are things

0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:42.280
<v Speaker 1>where this president is willing to negotiate, was willing to

0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:46.680
<v Speaker 1>threaten uh in hopes of negotiating. Well, but what ends

0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.160
<v Speaker 1>up happening is that he just ends up pulling out

0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:53.840
<v Speaker 1>all altogether and just given up on these things, Jennifer Epstein. Uh.

0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.960
<v Speaker 1>And I also I apologize because of course I know you,

0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:58.960
<v Speaker 1>and I just want to mention also that people can

0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.679
<v Speaker 1>follow you on Twitter or your twit Twitter handle is

0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.280
<v Speaker 1>at gen x j E N E P s. And

0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:11.320
<v Speaker 1>as someone who is certainly covering historic presidency uh and

0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.240
<v Speaker 1>has a background in history with your degree from a Princeton,

0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.080
<v Speaker 1>can you just sort of step back for a moment

0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:20.080
<v Speaker 1>and tell us what do you what kind of reactions

0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.679
<v Speaker 1>or what conversations do you have with other people, uh,

0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.240
<v Speaker 1>and their reaction to this effort to renegotiate NAFTA, What

0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.360
<v Speaker 1>did they tell you? How did they react? Well? Thanks, Pim,

0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:32.800
<v Speaker 1>and don't don't worry about it. It's fine. It happens

0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:34.920
<v Speaker 1>all the time in both ways with us. We get

0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:38.800
<v Speaker 1>each other's emails all the time. UM. So I think

0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.560
<v Speaker 1>that that in the context of this, this is pretty unusual.

0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.320
<v Speaker 1>You know, this is the president who seems to be,

0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:48.280
<v Speaker 1>you know, at once attempting to fulfill some of its

0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.159
<v Speaker 1>campaign problemises, which is something that presidents trying to do

0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.960
<v Speaker 1>and oftentimes you know, get stopped up on either because

0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.639
<v Speaker 1>once they get into office they realize, you know, just

0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.119
<v Speaker 1>how untendable something is, or they just can't get the

0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 1>support from Congress something like this. The President seems to

0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:04.920
<v Speaker 1>be ignoring all of that and just trying to move

0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:09.600
<v Speaker 1>ahead in his own way without uh and necessarily getting

0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:13.400
<v Speaker 1>anybody else on board. Uh. And that just this kind

0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:17.040
<v Speaker 1>of uh, you know, indicative of his style and his

0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:21.119
<v Speaker 1>desire to be a bull in the china shop. You know,

0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.479
<v Speaker 1>I'm struck by the fact that the US Chamber of

0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Commerce Chief executive Officer Thomas Donohue was speaking in Mexico

0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:32.320
<v Speaker 1>City yesterday and said that he would fight quote like

0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:36.320
<v Speaker 1>hell to defend NAFTA if Trump tries to pull out.

0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:42.919
<v Speaker 1>I'm wondering what could be the fallout if President Trump

0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:47.320
<v Speaker 1>decides to single handedly pull out. Well, you know, it

0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.119
<v Speaker 1>would obviously, uh, you know, turn the ire of a

0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.399
<v Speaker 1>whole lot of members of Chamber of Commerce, of the

0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:56.160
<v Speaker 1>Chamber of Commerce, which is you know, the hugest uh

0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.440
<v Speaker 1>business lobby in the country. That all that that you

0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.600
<v Speaker 1>would send only have a president who's still despite having

0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:08.679
<v Speaker 1>dissolved his various councils uh seems to you know, rely

0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.360
<v Speaker 1>on that kind of support and the and the support

0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:16.119
<v Speaker 1>of the establishment mainline Republicans dwindling as they may be.

0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:19.399
<v Speaker 1>That if if they can't even rely on him to

0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.560
<v Speaker 1>kind of support their business interests, uh, you know, why

0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.480
<v Speaker 1>should they be supporting him at all? For Epstein, thank

0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:27.879
<v Speaker 1>you so much for joining us. Jennifer Epstein covers the

0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:31.520
<v Speaker 1>White House for us here at Bloomberg News and NAFTA.

0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:36.200
<v Speaker 1>Talks are going on today in Washington between President Trump

0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:42.600
<v Speaker 1>and the head of Canada. Thanks for listening to the

0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:45.720
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg P and L podcast. You can subscribe and listen

0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:49.920
<v Speaker 1>to interviews at Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whatever podcast platform

0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.880
<v Speaker 1>you prefer. I'm pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at pim Fox.

0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm on Twitter at Lisa abramowits one before the podcast.

0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:00.320
<v Speaker 1>You can always catch us worldwide on Bloomberg Radio.