Speaker 1: I am a woman. Hear me roar in numbers too
Speaker 1: big to ignore, and I know too much to go
Speaker 1: back and pretend because I've heard it all before and
Speaker 1: I've been down there on the floor. No one's ever
Speaker 1: going to keep me down again. I am strong, I
Speaker 1: am invincible, I am woman. That song from Helen Ready
Speaker 1: came out in ninety one. I was fourteen years old,
Speaker 1: and Brian, that was the beginning of my ursioning feminism.
Speaker 1: That's exciting. I was negative ten when it came out. Wait, really,
Speaker 1: it was a really meaningful moment. This was ten years
Speaker 1: before you were born. It was I'm sorry to report
Speaker 1: I'm going to reach across this desk and slap you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be the first time anyway. But yeah, that's
Speaker 1: equal rights, isn't it. But you know, I think that
Speaker 1: that song was so important to me in my formative years.
Speaker 1: That and the Mary Tyler Moore Show, because let's face it, Brian,
Speaker 1: she could take a nothing day and suddenly make it
Speaker 1: all seem worthwhile. Why are we talking about all of this? Well,
Speaker 1: at the convention in Philadelphia, we saw the first female
Speaker 1: nominee for President of the United States in history, and
Speaker 1: no matter what your politics are. That's a pretty big deal.
Speaker 1: So we wanted to get a take on what this means,
Speaker 1: how people feel about it. We went out to Times
Speaker 1: Square to talk to women and men, boys and girls
Speaker 1: about the prospect of the first female president, female president.
Speaker 1: Do you want to talk to me? So? And here's
Speaker 1: some of the things they had to say. Where are
Speaker 1: you from New York? Oh? You were, Well, how do
Speaker 1: you feel about potentially having a female president? It's everything,
Speaker 1: it's everything that we need. Doesn't mean anything to you,
Speaker 1: but I mean it's kind of surprising. Why because like
Speaker 1: if it's like the first girl, I mean, it's always
Speaker 1: a new thing. So how old are you? Okay, So,
Speaker 1: how do you think you'll feel if, in fact Hillary
Speaker 1: Clinton's elected and you watch her being inaugurated? Proud? Kind
Speaker 1: of like we could all do it too. They give
Speaker 1: you one day I could be president. Um. I think
Speaker 1: it's more significant of the person and the character rather
Speaker 1: than the person's gender. Um. When I'm looking at voting
Speaker 1: for somebody, I'm not looking at sex, race, religion, anything,
Speaker 1: looking at what they stand for and what they're doing.
Speaker 1: And so, how do you feel about you? Can you
Speaker 1: tell me who you're voting for UM, I'm winning much
Speaker 1: more towards Trump than than through for Hillary. How do
Speaker 1: you feel about it, I don't think. I don't really
Speaker 1: it's a matter. I think it's a your opportunity. Personally,
Speaker 1: I feel like how the female president will probably change
Speaker 1: the standards of you know, I don't know. I feel
Speaker 1: like it's kind of an equal in the world of
Speaker 1: men and women. We get paid less, men get paid more.
Speaker 1: So if Hillary does become president, maybe those rules were
Speaker 1: changed when everyone is kind of equal. It's not. As
Speaker 1: she's a good president, then it would be great. So
Speaker 1: her ability matters more to you than her gender. Half
Speaker 1: in half, we're excited to have the fictional feminist heroin
Speaker 1: Julia Louis dryfe is akj or anti heroin Selina Meyer,
Speaker 1: who is currently running the country, at least on HBO.
Speaker 1: Like so many Americans, I have a massive girl crush
Speaker 1: on Julia Louis dreyfuss. I first met her as Elaine
Speaker 1: on Seinfeld and I did a story on the final
Speaker 1: episode of Seinfeld, so I went to the set. We
Speaker 1: had so much fun, and in fact, she taught me
Speaker 1: some of her moves on the dance floor, which is
Speaker 1: my favorite Seinfeld episode explained so much about you on
Speaker 1: the dance floor. Hey wait a second, I'm a really
Speaker 1: good dancer. I have to work hard to look like
Speaker 1: a bad dancer. Actually, Brian, come on, but we I
Speaker 1: just I don't know. We just hit it off. And
Speaker 1: of course I'm so thrilled for her success on V
Speaker 1: because I think the show is brilliant and she is
Speaker 1: brilliant in it, and she was nice enough to let
Speaker 1: us give her a call at her house in l A. Hi, Julia,
Speaker 1: Louis Dreyfus, Hi, Katie Kurt. It's very exciting to have
Speaker 1: you joined our podcast. And by the way, it's because
Speaker 1: we're in my house. It's possible things are gonna happen
Speaker 1: while we're talking. That's okay. Like my teenager is still
Speaker 1: sleep upstairs, and so he may come down and ask
Speaker 1: for breakfast. Okay, this is a good time to teach
Speaker 1: him how to boil an egg exactly. This is Brian Goldsmith,
Speaker 1: who's a huge fan of yours I am and a
Speaker 1: huge fan of the show. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: So welcome to our little podcast. Well, thanks for having
Speaker 1: me on your little podcasts. You listen to podcasts, I do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I I think they're amazing actually, and I listened to
Speaker 1: them when I have a long drive or on a plane.
Speaker 1: What's your favorite podcast? Well, I'm a big Iro Glass
Speaker 1: and uh, this American Life fan. That's sort of what
Speaker 1: I usually go to. And then the like the Moth
Speaker 1: Series and stuff like that. Yeah, well there's so many.
Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, there's so much material out
Speaker 1: there that's actually really worthy. I don't know how people
Speaker 1: ingest all the incoming good quality stuff, right, no kidding,
Speaker 1: I mean between podcasts and all the good television that's
Speaker 1: out there on on cave boy, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: guess we should never get out of bed. I think
Speaker 1: you're right. That's how I feel sometime, honestly. But talking
Speaker 1: about good television, we have to talk about Viev. I mean, listen,
Speaker 1: it is so hilarious, Julia, and I know the creator left,
Speaker 1: and you were very insistent that you wanted to keep
Speaker 1: the show going. I feel like it's better than ever. Thanks.
Speaker 1: That's so nice of you to say, And apparently you're
Speaker 1: extremely involved in every bit of it, the writing, and
Speaker 1: when you shoot a scene, you say, why don't we
Speaker 1: do it this way or that way? In other words,
Speaker 1: you're a control freak in the best possible way. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think that's why you and I like each other.
Speaker 1: I think you're right, But I mean, obviously I think
Speaker 1: you're having still having a fantastic time. And the C word,
Speaker 1: I think was one of my favorite episodes ever. Oh really,
Speaker 1: Oh you know what my husband directed that? I know
Speaker 1: he did, which made me like it even more. Isn't
Speaker 1: that funny that that's the episode he directed? Well, I
Speaker 1: think everybody was talking about it and people just loved
Speaker 1: it so much. And when you look ahead, I mean,
Speaker 1: have have you started shooting for next season? We have
Speaker 1: started writing for next season, but not shooting yet. And
Speaker 1: so where do you you know, how do you figure
Speaker 1: out where going to take the show? Because I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people worried when she became president it
Speaker 1: was going to lose its edge because so much of
Speaker 1: the comedy was based on her being a second banana,
Speaker 1: and yet it got funnier and funnier. And and have
Speaker 1: can you give us, without a spoiler alert, any indication
Speaker 1: of how the show is going to move forward? Well? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can, in in broad terms, I mean I can
Speaker 1: say that Selina Meyer is a political animal, I mean
Speaker 1: fundamentally in her core and so that's not going anywhere.
Speaker 1: And um, and she was present for a very short
Speaker 1: period of time, and you can even make the argument
Speaker 1: that she wasn't even quite elected, you know, and so um,
Speaker 1: it's very important to her. A top priority for her
Speaker 1: is to remain relevant. Relevancy is the name of the game.
Speaker 1: So um, you know, you haven't seen the last of her,
Speaker 1: let's just put it that way. And and I think
Speaker 1: that's you know, this woman is always trying to get
Speaker 1: uphill and uh, and that will remain in place because
Speaker 1: even when she was president, she was campaigning to try
Speaker 1: to stay president, and in fact campaigning to get elected
Speaker 1: president because she wasn't. She sort of fell into it
Speaker 1: the first go round. You know, it's remarkable to me
Speaker 1: how many people I know in politics who say that
Speaker 1: VEEP is actually the most accurate depiction of what real
Speaker 1: life in elected office is actually like, not House of Cards,
Speaker 1: not the West Wing. But Veep does that thrill you
Speaker 1: or scare you or some combination of the two. I
Speaker 1: guess it's a sort of a cocktail of the two,
Speaker 1: but more thrilled me than anything else, because I feel
Speaker 1: as if we've worked very hard. I mean, we've worked
Speaker 1: really hard to keep to make a show funny first
Speaker 1: and foremost, but we've also worked really hard to keep
Speaker 1: it plausible. So so much of the behavior and storylines
Speaker 1: goes through sort of a sieve in which we say, Okay,
Speaker 1: is this plausible? Would this happen? Can this happen? Is
Speaker 1: this too broad? Is it just the right of small? Um?
Speaker 1: You know? And so I I'm I'm thrilled at that,
Speaker 1: and I do believe you know, I know it may
Speaker 1: seem as if I'm very cynical about politics and so on,
Speaker 1: it actually has, in a weird way, kind of um
Speaker 1: made me have even more respect for those people in
Speaker 1: politics who I think have remained true to their core
Speaker 1: and who haven't sort of an an elevated sense of
Speaker 1: of and correctly so, of of doing the right thing
Speaker 1: and and and sort of following an idea as opposed
Speaker 1: to just um, a single person or an ego and
Speaker 1: and and those people exist and so um, and I've
Speaker 1: had the good fortune to run into them. And of
Speaker 1: course there are plenty of people in politics who don't
Speaker 1: fall into that category, but I think there are plenty
Speaker 1: who do. So I'm not. I'm not undone by the
Speaker 1: the reality of the show. You have real political or
Speaker 1: form of political prose who contribute to the show. You
Speaker 1: have also great journalists like Frank Rich who you know,
Speaker 1: had a great proximity to power and wrote about it
Speaker 1: through the years. Um. I can't help but wonder how
Speaker 1: the juxtaposition of the Trump campaign and the craziest campaign season.
Speaker 1: I think that you and I and most people can
Speaker 1: remember how that is kind of playing out in terms
Speaker 1: of how VEEP is developing as well. Can you talk
Speaker 1: about that a little bit, Julia, Yeah, Well, I'll tell
Speaker 1: you something. What's going on in the Trump campaign. I
Speaker 1: am telling you if you were to take the actual
Speaker 1: his language, his his the sentences that he speaks and
Speaker 1: put them down on paper, or there's certain reality the
Speaker 1: realities that occurred at the Republican Convention, I e. Uh,
Speaker 1: Milania Trump plagiarizing the speech um, either wittingly or unwittingly whatever.
Speaker 1: But it's a fact. Uh, it's too broad for our show.
Speaker 1: Real life is crazier than it's too big. I'm telling you,
Speaker 1: if they had said that, I would have said, no, guys,
Speaker 1: we're not going to do this. Is this is ah,
Speaker 1: this is broad. This is like a cartoon when you
Speaker 1: come up with stuff like that slogan continuity with change,
Speaker 1: which is sort of a parody of a political consult
Speaker 1: of a slogan, And it turns out the Prime Minister
Speaker 1: of Australia basically copied it. His was continuity and change. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he changed the uh what is that conjunction or whatever?
Speaker 1: And then he got a lot of shipped for it,
Speaker 1: and then I guess he made it. He made he
Speaker 1: changed it again. But isn't that remarkable? That's one of
Speaker 1: my favorite UM moments, Julia. I mean, what do you
Speaker 1: think of this whole Trump campaign when you see it
Speaker 1: just as an American citizen? And who on the show
Speaker 1: is most like Donald Trump? You think, um on the show?
Speaker 1: I guess the person who's the most like Donald Trump
Speaker 1: on our show is Jonah Ryan, only because played by
Speaker 1: the wonderful Tim Simmons, only because he's completely um ill
Speaker 1: suited for the job of congressman and um and unfit
Speaker 1: is the word of choice these days, and and potentially
Speaker 1: mentally unstable all in one. So I would say that
Speaker 1: Jonah Ryan is as close as we can get to Trump.
Speaker 1: But he certainly wasn't fashioned after Trump? Are you being
Speaker 1: inspired by some of the things you're watching on the
Speaker 1: campaign trail? And I don't mean inspired as a person,
Speaker 1: I mean inspired as a writer and someone in the
Speaker 1: field of comedy. Well, I mean yes and no. I
Speaker 1: mean the show obviously isn't a parody. And we've created
Speaker 1: this alternate universe on our show so that parties aren't
Speaker 1: aren't defined. Uh. And that's really been an advantage, particularly nowadays,
Speaker 1: when everything is so seemingly polarized. Um, I think it
Speaker 1: gives us the opportunity to have sort of everybody can
Speaker 1: join in on the fun. I mean. The truth is
Speaker 1: is that when we meet with insiders uh and politicians
Speaker 1: and so on in d C, no matter what side
Speaker 1: of the aisle they're on, they think we're making fun
Speaker 1: of the other side. That's convenient. Yeah, it's very convenient.
Speaker 1: So um, I mean, yeah, sure, we're all uh keenly
Speaker 1: involved and watching, of course as all I would think
Speaker 1: I would hope most American citizens are, but also as
Speaker 1: comedy writers and as and given the fact that the
Speaker 1: show is political, but our goal is not to sort
Speaker 1: of scoop that stuff up and and and we never
Speaker 1: have sort of put it directly into a show. Um,
Speaker 1: although it seems to things seem to sort of parallel
Speaker 1: a lot in a weird way, almost by coincidence, as
Speaker 1: in the continuity uh, continuity with change slogan. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about your sort of political leans. I know you had
Speaker 1: your supporting Hillary Clinton. Um, and I'm curious about how
Speaker 1: you feel she's being portrayed out there in the world,
Speaker 1: and if you feel that she's being portrayed fairly, because
Speaker 1: there is you know, I'm sure you've talked a lot
Speaker 1: about sexes and both professionally, politically, etcetera. And do you
Speaker 1: think that's entering into the conversation even in a subtle way.
Speaker 1: I think it's in the conversation. And we don't even
Speaker 1: know it. For instance, we're talking about it right now,
Speaker 1: right and um, we wouldn't be talking about it if
Speaker 1: it wasn't an issue. Um, there is, there's no avoiding it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's an extraordinary achievement that she's
Speaker 1: a first female candidate for for president dominated Canada, I
Speaker 1: should say. And and at the same time, she is
Speaker 1: being seen through a lens as such. Um. And you
Speaker 1: know people talk about those pants suits and people talk about, uh, well, look,
Speaker 1: let's put it this way, a man who is I've
Speaker 1: said this before, but a man who is decisive and stern,
Speaker 1: uh is. I would say Garners a certain amount of respect,
Speaker 1: but I can't say that's the same necessarily for a woman.
Speaker 1: And I really think that's all you need to know.
Speaker 1: And you play the first female president on your show,
Speaker 1: how do you think about portraying that character You're trying
Speaker 1: to send a message in any way about now, I'm
Speaker 1: trying to be funny period, I'm not on a soapbox
Speaker 1: on this show. Having said that, though we're making fun
Speaker 1: of this reality, I mean, there has been more than
Speaker 1: more than one occasion in which uh A Meyer has
Speaker 1: said things like I don't want to identify myself as
Speaker 1: a woman because people don't like women, and as a woman,
Speaker 1: you know that, and I know that we don't like women.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I'm completely botching what the line was,
Speaker 1: but we've said a variation on that line multiple times
Speaker 1: throughout the seasons, and the word lady balls has used
Speaker 1: many times on the show. Yeah, lady balls for sure.
Speaker 1: I was asking Brian about, gee, does the show really
Speaker 1: kind of take on sexism? Uh, in a in a
Speaker 1: in a in a significant way, and we were scratching
Speaker 1: our heads and saying, not so much. It seems to
Speaker 1: be somewhat gender neutral in terms of the comedy that's
Speaker 1: part and parcel of the show. Would you agree with
Speaker 1: that except for those some exceptions, I think we do
Speaker 1: take it on. But I think we take it on.
Speaker 1: It's it's um, it's between the lines, um, And I
Speaker 1: think the very concept of the show takes it on.
Speaker 1: Now we should say there are a lot of female
Speaker 1: conservatives who are not supporting Hillary, having nothing to do
Speaker 1: with sexism, but because they fundamentally disagree with her. Oh listen,
Speaker 1: I'm not even suggesting that people aren't supporting her only
Speaker 1: because she's a woman. For those who aren't supporting her,
Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that. I'm just saying that people, Um,
Speaker 1: it's a different kind of judgment period, That's what I think. Right.
Speaker 1: In fact, she said as much talked about sort of
Speaker 1: Hillary standards, right, and think she's been very open about that.
Speaker 1: And and do you feel like that exists obviously for
Speaker 1: women in Hollywood still, there's been so much discussion in
Speaker 1: recent years about the dearth of great roles. You did
Speaker 1: a very funny skit with Tina Fey and Patricia Arquette
Speaker 1: and Amy Schumer comes up as your last effable Day,
Speaker 1: And and I think that was also about agents not
Speaker 1: allowed to swear on your podcast. Well, I don't know.
Speaker 1: You did say it the other day, and that got
Speaker 1: a lot of attention on social media. It did, did it? Really?
Speaker 1: So if I correct you and say it's called the
Speaker 1: Last fuckuble Day, maybe it'll get more bucket. Anyway, what
Speaker 1: was the question? The question was about the video? Oh, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I was just gonna say, um, is it still
Speaker 1: very frustrating to be a woman in Hollywood? Sure? I know,
Speaker 1: is that's a stupid question. I know that's it sounds stupid.
Speaker 1: But I feel like things are starting to change a
Speaker 1: little bit, or are they not. I don't know, It
Speaker 1: really depends. I mean, no, no, I mean I guess
Speaker 1: they are, just because we're sort of talking about it.
Speaker 1: And and I think there's certainly been um more movement
Speaker 1: in the world of television and cable, movement in the
Speaker 1: right direction for more gender equality and also versification. I
Speaker 1: would say, but um, certainly not in film. I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's the case. In film, and it's
Speaker 1: definitely harder to age in in show business as a
Speaker 1: woman than it is for a man. But I would
Speaker 1: say that there's a there's plenty, plenty room for improvement. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how can we change that? You know, as somebody who's
Speaker 1: about to turn sixty? Uh, that would be me, not you.
Speaker 1: I think about it. Will it ever change? Because it
Speaker 1: seems to me the preferred age of actors or newscasters
Speaker 1: even or is in their thirties and forties, right, So
Speaker 1: how do you change that? By continuing to work and
Speaker 1: setting an example, you know, and uh and having some
Speaker 1: ladyballs because um, as much as as as you can
Speaker 1: or feels appropriate. I mean, I executive produce my show
Speaker 1: and I uh call a lot of the shots and um,
Speaker 1: but that hasn't always been the case, and I'm glad
Speaker 1: it is now. And I try to hire as many
Speaker 1: capable women as as we can and and uh, but
Speaker 1: it's not easy there. I mean, it took a long
Speaker 1: time for me to get into this position, and uh,
Speaker 1: I've had to work hard to get to this moment.
Speaker 1: But maybe I'm happy to be here. I was going
Speaker 1: to say maybe because of you, though it will be
Speaker 1: easier for the women who are coming after you. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel that for me too. Yeah, you know that
Speaker 1: I had to put up with so much BS when
Speaker 1: I anchored the CBS Evening News that I feel like
Speaker 1: the women behind me don't have to deal with quite
Speaker 1: as much. I mean, there's still a certain amount of
Speaker 1: it that they're going to have to tolerate, but it
Speaker 1: just sort of gets easier. The less novel it is,
Speaker 1: the easier it becomes. Yeah, I think that's exactly right,
Speaker 1: the less novel. And uh, you know, assuming that Hillary
Speaker 1: gets elected. You know, think if you're a little kid
Speaker 1: right now, think if you're ten or twelve years old
Speaker 1: and the first president in your memories that is an
Speaker 1: African American man, and the next president is is a
Speaker 1: a female. I mean, I think how that changes your
Speaker 1: point of view on life generally. Um, I think it's enormous.
Speaker 1: We should talk about for a second your own relationship
Speaker 1: with Hillary Clinton, because she sent you a note in
Speaker 1: early Can you tell that story? I can. Well. Um,
Speaker 1: it turns out that when we we shot Veep in Baltimore,
Speaker 1: Maryland for the first four years, and um, someone who
Speaker 1: was in our makeup department also did the makeup for
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton. And this was back when she was Secretary
Speaker 1: State and so uh for Christmas. Uh, the hair make
Speaker 1: folks who are all good friends of mine gave to
Speaker 1: me a buck slip that's a secretary stayed on it
Speaker 1: and it's from Hillary Clinton and hold on him in
Speaker 1: my office. I'm gonna get it. And it says, uh, Julia,
Speaker 1: you're a great VEEP. Hope you can get gun control,
Speaker 1: immigration reform, and job creation this season. All the best
Speaker 1: Hillary Rodham Clinton. And this was in January of two thirteen,
Speaker 1: so you can imagine how thrilled I was to get
Speaker 1: this was such just amazing and you thought, wow, this
Speaker 1: show is really breaking through, Yes, exactly, And so I
Speaker 1: had it framed and loved it. And then her emails
Speaker 1: came out and uh, and a bunch of them, you know,
Speaker 1: we're put out there for public record or whatever the
Speaker 1: word is. And somebody tweeted to me, did you see this,
Speaker 1: which I had not because I really not interested in
Speaker 1: really for emails and uh, and the email is from
Speaker 1: Hillary to somebody who worked for her, saying, a friend
Speaker 1: wants me to sign something for Julia. Lewis drce Dryfe
Speaker 1: is for VEEP any ideas Lewis by the way, it
Speaker 1: is spelled l e w. I s that's not how
Speaker 1: I spelled my last name. So she's a huge fan
Speaker 1: and and her guy wrote back, let me brainstorm on
Speaker 1: this one, do some research. I confess I haven't seen
Speaker 1: the show, so it was just perfect. And so I
Speaker 1: printed this up and then I reframed this so that
Speaker 1: the buck slip and the email are next to each other,
Speaker 1: because it's it's just quintessentially, it's everything about this I
Speaker 1: love to be honest with you, and it's and and
Speaker 1: it's nothing against Hillary at all, but it does speak to, frankly,
Speaker 1: what our show Veep is very much about. And uh
Speaker 1: so it's but I was thrilled to be I mean,
Speaker 1: to have this connection and then to have this buck
Speaker 1: slip from her. It's just crazy, isn't it? When it's
Speaker 1: so funny when you say what our show is really about?
Speaker 1: What would you say your show is really about? It's
Speaker 1: obviously about not not about nothing. It's about Is it
Speaker 1: about sort of the difference between appearances and what people
Speaker 1: what's really going on behind the scenes. Yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: it's about the real huge human behavior in politics as
Speaker 1: opposed to the lofty idea of human behavior in politics.
Speaker 1: And Uh, it's what's behind the curtain. That's what it's about. Well,
Speaker 1: one small thing that the show accomplishes is it is
Speaker 1: it exposes the culture of the body man in Washington,
Speaker 1: which I think a lot of people not in politics
Speaker 1: didn't know about. Um. The Gary character is kind of
Speaker 1: the body man to the to the tenth our Um,
Speaker 1: can you sort of describe for people who haven't seen
Speaker 1: the show what that person does. Well, bodyman is a
Speaker 1: real position. It's a guy or a woman who travels
Speaker 1: to the president and sort of attends to the president
Speaker 1: every moment, so knows the president's schedule or vice president schedule,
Speaker 1: knows where what they need when they want their snack,
Speaker 1: what if they if what kind of snack they would want. Uh,
Speaker 1: they have Kleenex, they have anything is in a bag
Speaker 1: that they carry with them, throat lozenges, throat loenges, Purell, Taan, Pax,
Speaker 1: whatever you need, they've got it and it's in a bag.
Speaker 1: And it's a very very uh I'm going to say
Speaker 1: intimate position. Uh. Doug Band was body man to Clinton
Speaker 1: for many years and rose rose up to to run
Speaker 1: the Clinton foundation. At first glance, I guess you could
Speaker 1: say seemingly me ne old job, but in fact it's
Speaker 1: it's kind of just the opposite. And Tony Hale plays
Speaker 1: my body man on Veep and we have so much
Speaker 1: fun together. You have no idea. He's a great, Katie.
Speaker 1: If you manhim, I have. He is so funny. He's
Speaker 1: kind of he is that guy. He is the great
Speaker 1: And it's funny because we're very close and in a
Speaker 1: strange way, uh like, when we're working together, he's sort
Speaker 1: of that same guy to me in a weird way.
Speaker 1: I mean, not that he follows me around with the bags,
Speaker 1: but there was exactly the levivan, but there's sort of
Speaker 1: an intimacy there that is comfortable in the house to
Speaker 1: say it. Well, you have such an incredible group of
Speaker 1: people on that show, I mean every last one of them.
Speaker 1: It is such a true ensemble. And the people behind
Speaker 1: the scenes, as Katie mentioned earlier, are political pros who
Speaker 1: who have been in these positions. Do they kind of
Speaker 1: go through this script writing process with you and say, well,
Speaker 1: this could happen, this doesn't happen my past. Yes, we
Speaker 1: have these We have these political consultants who work on
Speaker 1: the show from both sides of the aisle, by the way,
Speaker 1: and uh vet our scripts so um, which is fantastic,
Speaker 1: And they go through and say exactly that this isn't plausible.
Speaker 1: You would need more secret service in this scene. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's no way this person would be allowed to enter
Speaker 1: the oval all that kind of stuff. And they've been there,
Speaker 1: They've lived and breathed it, so they know and a
Speaker 1: lot and most of the time, I would say, we
Speaker 1: we follow their advice. Sometimes we don't for the sake
Speaker 1: of comedy or telling of a story, but for the
Speaker 1: most part, we really do because it's important to us
Speaker 1: to make the things seem grounded, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: but but with this election season, it seems like the
Speaker 1: sky is literally the limit. I mean, you have Scott
Speaker 1: bo standing in front of a sign that says count
Speaker 1: at the Republican National Convention, and he's standing in front
Speaker 1: of the Oh. I mean, that would have been a
Speaker 1: perfect end van for favorite episode. Yes, it would have
Speaker 1: been an ideal ending, and we may have to revisit
Speaker 1: that moment. And then you have Donald Trump being handed
Speaker 1: a purple heart and saying, I've always wanted one of these.
Speaker 1: And this is a lot easier. I mean, can't you
Speaker 1: see a character in veep doing something like that? To me,
Speaker 1: that sounds like Selena Meyer, Yeah, exactly, who, by the way,
Speaker 1: is also unfit to be president. Um, but that would
Speaker 1: be something she might say. It's incredibly narcissistic and insensitive
Speaker 1: and and and there's there's zero understanding of the circumstances
Speaker 1: or the realities of a purple heart, but a lot
Speaker 1: like Selena Meyer. When Hillary Clinton tried to get on
Speaker 1: the subway in New York, and that was a brilliant moment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm just that MetroCard to work. Oh, it's just
Speaker 1: too favy exactly because for those of us who actually
Speaker 1: do take the subway, there's a there's a particular rhythm
Speaker 1: with which you have to swipe, and for those people
Speaker 1: who don't take the subway, it's it's kind of hard
Speaker 1: to master on your first go. And it was kind
Speaker 1: of a modern moment, a modern replay of George Herpert
Speaker 1: Walker Bush at the grocery store scanner right where he
Speaker 1: couldn't figure out sort of how much melt cost Wright
Speaker 1: being marveled at the at the scanner and its ability
Speaker 1: to detect immediately what sort of food was coming across
Speaker 1: the table, right, Well, I mean, these guys live in
Speaker 1: a bubble. Let's not let's not kid ourselves. Do you
Speaker 1: think we expect too much of our leaders. We want
Speaker 1: them to be in touch and down to earth, and
Speaker 1: we also want them to make these big decisions about
Speaker 1: Warren Peace. Um, yeah, I'm not sure down to earth matters.
Speaker 1: I think intelligence and wisdom is really the name of
Speaker 1: the game. Um, but I don't know how that cells.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, and this in this day
Speaker 1: and age, and you watch what happened with Brexit, it
Speaker 1: seems like anti intellectualism is so profoundly popular now. The
Speaker 1: guy who said don't listen to experts, expert don't know anything. Um,
Speaker 1: it's been very It's been fascinating and also unsettling to
Speaker 1: watch people dismiss anybody with any level of expertise or experience.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that's happening? I don't know. But
Speaker 1: it's not a good sign. I mean, it's happened in
Speaker 1: other times in world history, and it's it's never a
Speaker 1: good thing. So UM, striving for UM, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say. I'm kind of despondent
Speaker 1: about it. Actually, I think, let me just put it
Speaker 1: this way. Let's get out the vote. We got to
Speaker 1: get out the vote. This is what this election is
Speaker 1: all about. If we can get out the vote, I
Speaker 1: think I think Hillary will win and I'm going to
Speaker 1: um work really really hard to help get that in place. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe if she wins, she'll be a guest on the
Speaker 1: next the next veep. What do you think of that? Now,
Speaker 1: that won't work. I love her to death, but she's
Speaker 1: not getting into VIEP and neither as Donald or any
Speaker 1: of these other people. We don't put any real life
Speaker 1: people in our shows. U. We we created this alternate
Speaker 1: universe very very specifically, uh and intentionally so that um
Speaker 1: so we don't have any of that. We don't even
Speaker 1: have real journalists or or anything on our show. We've create.
Speaker 1: We've just completely made another world altogether, which I'm actually
Speaker 1: quite glad about. Otherwise we'd we'd fall into fall into
Speaker 1: areas we wouldn't want to go to. I think communically, well,
Speaker 1: maybe Larry David could be a Bernie Sanders like character. No, Katie, no, okay,
Speaker 1: if he's already done that, that's true. Brilliantly, I might
Speaker 1: add brilliantly. Obviously, I could never work for for a
Speaker 1: show like yours. I just don't have any new ideas. No,
Speaker 1: you're coming, You're you're pitching terrible ideas. But I'm my
Speaker 1: door is open if you want to pitch me other ones,
Speaker 1: I'll listen. I don't think I'm going to give you
Speaker 1: the job. I'm glad at least you're honest. Well, thank
Speaker 1: you for talking with us. This was really It's always
Speaker 1: great to talk to you. And hopefully I'll see you soon.
Speaker 1: Oh I hope so and um, thanks for having me
Speaker 1: on your show. Good luck with it. I'm psyched that
Speaker 1: you've got it. Thanks. Nice to meet you, too, Nice
Speaker 1: to meet you. Brilliant Oh my god, we created a monster,
Speaker 1: fucking monster if by you guys, talk to you. Okay,
Speaker 1: but Brian, that was so fun. I don't know about you,
Speaker 1: but I just love her. You must have a crush
Speaker 1: on her now too, right, I've always had a crush
Speaker 1: until you, Louis Drive when I was getting ready to
Speaker 1: do this interview. By the way, I think I read
Speaker 1: that all the twenty five and twenty six year old
Speaker 1: writers who are working on Seinfeld we're in love with her.
Speaker 1: So you can understand why, of course, but it's also
Speaker 1: great because I think that sometimes things happen on television
Speaker 1: and they get us ready for things happening in real life.
Speaker 1: Whether we're talking about The Huxtables, pre Bill Cosby, Controversy
Speaker 1: PS or other shows. You know, I think you've got
Speaker 1: to see it to be it, and so when you
Speaker 1: see it on television, it normalizes it. We're going to
Speaker 1: talk more about women in politics, but first we're going
Speaker 1: to take a quick break. But after that we'll talk
Speaker 1: with a reporter who's gotten some of the closest access
Speaker 1: possible to Hillary Clinton, New York Magazine writer Rebecca tray Star.
Speaker 1: But first, a word from our sponsors. Thanks so much
Speaker 1: to our sponsors. Now let's get back to the show.
Speaker 1: So we have Rebecca Treyster coming up next, and she's
Speaker 1: covering the real life version of the story on Veep
Speaker 1: of a woman running for president. And when you think
Speaker 1: about it, Selena Meyer is a little bit Hillary and
Speaker 1: a little Donald Trump. She probably has the worst qualities
Speaker 1: of both of them. How lovely and charming, But that's
Speaker 1: what makes the show so good because she's just on
Speaker 1: so many levels intensely unlikable, but This ain't cannot be
Speaker 1: said for Rebecca Tracer. She's so smart, so nice, and
Speaker 1: a great reporter for New York Magazine. She spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time on the campaign trail with Hillary Clinton,
Speaker 1: and she's written a couple of books about women in
Speaker 1: politics and women in society. And the latest is called
Speaker 1: All the Single Ladies, All the Single Ladies, but it's
Speaker 1: only just one, All the Single Yes, I'm so happy
Speaker 1: to have you here. Hi, Rebecca, Hi, I'm happy to
Speaker 1: be here. Before we talk about the great work that
Speaker 1: you've done. Um, tell me a little bit about yourself,
Speaker 1: because you are a generation younger than me. I hate
Speaker 1: to admit, what do you satan so quickly? Rebecca? I
Speaker 1: hate that? But your forty one Tell me about how
Speaker 1: you came to be interested in women's issues and why
Speaker 1: you really wanted to focus on this in your writing
Speaker 1: and your journalism. Well, I never imagined that I would
Speaker 1: focus on it professionally because the era in which I
Speaker 1: came of age. If you came of age in the
Speaker 1: Helen Ready era, I came of age in the deep
Speaker 1: frozen backlash tundra that followed. Right. So I was born
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy five, you were like in Susan Falut
Speaker 1: I was. I was in Susan Faluti Land, honestly, and
Speaker 1: so and you know, the year I went to college
Speaker 1: was the year that Katie roy Fe's book The Morning After,
Speaker 1: which sort of like you know, attacked the on campus
Speaker 1: anti date rape movement. Um, it was a very profound
Speaker 1: anti feminist moment in which I came of age and
Speaker 1: was a teenager, and it never occurred to me then.
Speaker 1: I mean, I did go to the two marches in
Speaker 1: Washington two when I was a junior in high school
Speaker 1: around reproductive rights, but somehow that was cut off from
Speaker 1: any sense of a larger women's movement. There just wasn't
Speaker 1: a sense of any kind of feminist cohesion. Um. In
Speaker 1: feminism has never been a cohesive movement. But on the
Speaker 1: other hand, there just wasn't a women's movement and it
Speaker 1: never I actually couldn't have imagined that it would come
Speaker 1: back in the way that it has wonderful ten years.
Speaker 1: It is wonderful. I mean, I'm just waiting now for
Speaker 1: the next wave of backlash. I have to say. It
Speaker 1: is wonderful. Um want want, Yeah, I know, well, it's true,
Speaker 1: it's coming. Prepare everybody gird um. Uh. It was really
Speaker 1: around two thousand three when I took a job writing
Speaker 1: for Salon, which was an internet publication. UM that I
Speaker 1: sort of just took on a flyer as I started
Speaker 1: to write a little bit from a feminist perspective on
Speaker 1: women's issues, and so there was this sort of um
Speaker 1: blossoming of a new generation of feminism. But that didn't
Speaker 1: happen until I was really in my mid to late twenties. Um,
Speaker 1: I believe I wrote some pieces about you. I believe
Speaker 1: you did. You should go back and review those pieces
Speaker 1: and I can see if I'm actually happy to have
Speaker 1: you here. I think you would be, I think, um.
Speaker 1: And but then you know, suddenly women in presidential politics
Speaker 1: became a very real reality. So I found myself in
Speaker 1: the in the during the two thousand and eight election
Speaker 1: writing about Hillary Clinton, which was the mother load, so
Speaker 1: to speak, when it came to great material. I'm curious,
Speaker 1: how is it different the coverage of Hillary Clinton from
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight to this campaign, because I've been
Speaker 1: thinking a lot about that, Rebecca. Because I was anchoring
Speaker 1: the CBS Evening News, I remember being hyper vigilant and
Speaker 1: hyper aware of sexism creeping in to the copy, creeping
Speaker 1: into the pieces, and I was sort of like the
Speaker 1: the safety patrol for feminists at CBS, at least during
Speaker 1: my tenure. And I remember feeling outraged when I don't
Speaker 1: know if you remember that one video clip where they
Speaker 1: strung together all of the really obnoxious comments about Hillary
Speaker 1: Clinton about her blouse or about her pants, or about
Speaker 1: her weight, or about her laugh or about this, that
Speaker 1: and the other thing. And I got so incensed, and
Speaker 1: I remember actually saying to her, why does Sarah Palin
Speaker 1: have an action figure and you have a nutcracker? She
Speaker 1: laughed so loud. But do you think it's changed now
Speaker 1: with the coverage of this campaign. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: been entirely ameliorated. I think it's I think it is different.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the clips that's very famous from
Speaker 1: two thousand eight is somebody on Fox News saying, she's
Speaker 1: like your ex wife standing outside of probate court. Um,
Speaker 1: somebody to take out the garbage, you know, the hectoring wife.
Speaker 1: It's like we've sharpened. There's a lot less commentary about
Speaker 1: her clothes. In many ways, I think the media has
Speaker 1: sharpened its vocabulary around sexism. I think two was a
Speaker 1: tremendous learning experience for a lot of people in the media,
Speaker 1: where they were like, oh right, those are code words
Speaker 1: for bitch the place you still see it, and people
Speaker 1: just can't help themselves. And I understand why, and we
Speaker 1: can talk about it. It's her voice. We do hear
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton screaming into a microphone. A. She's not a
Speaker 1: completely natural order. B. We are simply not used to
Speaker 1: hearing this higher register. That's what I just read. I
Speaker 1: just read a piece about this, saying that she needs
Speaker 1: to speak less from her lungs and more have more
Speaker 1: air in her stomach. And I know about this because
Speaker 1: I had to learn it as well as a broadcaster.
Speaker 1: But after an election where we have had Donald Trump
Speaker 1: and Bernie Sanders like kings of yelling that we all
Speaker 1: are sitting around wondering how we can make Hillary sound
Speaker 1: better at a microphone. So there it's both based in
Speaker 1: a kind of in a reality, which is that we
Speaker 1: that tone doesn't comfort us, right, and we need to
Speaker 1: address that. At the same time that it's like, well,
Speaker 1: men can scream at us or comforter or speak softly
Speaker 1: and warmly like Barack Obama, or slowly or they can
Speaker 1: scream and we can still find them reassuring. It was interesting.
Speaker 1: I think that there's been a reclamation project around her laugh.
Speaker 1: I noticed was that Barack Obama, who in Philadelphia last
Speaker 1: week said was I can't remember what the context was,
Speaker 1: maybe it was in his speech and he was talking
Speaker 1: about her laugh, her big laugh, and she's got this wonderful,
Speaker 1: infectious laugh uh that uh carries quite far. And sometimes
Speaker 1: it'll be surprising because you'll be in the middle and
Speaker 1: there's a joy in a earth that I think sometimes
Speaker 1: Bubba doesn't always see. Because that's one of the features
Speaker 1: of Hillary Clinton that actually people talk about all the
Speaker 1: time is how readily and how loudly she laughs. And
Speaker 1: that's what's been cast as the cackle that you know,
Speaker 1: all of it. But in fact, I think there's been
Speaker 1: a decided project amongst her friends and colleagues to say, wait,
Speaker 1: we gotta recast this laugh, branding the branding the laugh
Speaker 1: as one of the like warm and appealing and you know,
Speaker 1: one of the one of the appealing things about her,
Speaker 1: instead of something that that we're going to only hear
Speaker 1: about his off putting. So but yeah, all of this,
Speaker 1: I mean, the big issue here is, and this is
Speaker 1: part of what's radical, and it was radical with the
Speaker 1: presidency of Barack Obama and will continue to be. It
Speaker 1: is trading in all our models for what presidents look like,
Speaker 1: for what political leadership looks like. And that really does
Speaker 1: mean a national adjustment of our norms. As you say,
Speaker 1: what went through your mind, Rebecca when she came out
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia and there was this moment where it was
Speaker 1: everyone had to acknowledge this was a new chapter in
Speaker 1: American history. And just two days before that she talked
Speaker 1: about the significance of her candidacy when she was on
Speaker 1: that big jumbo screen. I'm happy for boys and men
Speaker 1: because when any barrier falls in America, it clears the
Speaker 1: way for everyone. In two thousand and eight, it seems
Speaker 1: that she really wanted to deny her gender in many ways,
Speaker 1: directly by the advice, was it pen or Dick Morris,
Speaker 1: what Mark Penn? Yeah, by a lot of people, I mean,
Speaker 1: and that wasn't a crazy piece of advice, given that
Speaker 1: we again have no model for how to run a
Speaker 1: woman successfully for the presidency and um, but it turned
Speaker 1: out to be very bad advice for two eight. Of course,
Speaker 1: we'll never forget that moment in New Hampshire when she
Speaker 1: showed some emotion in that dinner talking about how challenging
Speaker 1: it it was for her to run for president or
Speaker 1: to be criticized or something. Um, And that was completely
Speaker 1: against type and against what she was being advised to do.
Speaker 1: And that was the moment where she seemed to catapult
Speaker 1: higher up, you know, at a higher standing, right, yes, um.
Speaker 1: Part of what was happening in that period in New
Speaker 1: Hampshire was it was the most sexist media coverage that
Speaker 1: she had gotten. She had lost Iowa and it's like
Speaker 1: all of these guys, I'm using guys loosely, but it
Speaker 1: was mostly guys in television media who like had to
Speaker 1: be respectful. Ever for all this time, suddenly she was losing,
Speaker 1: and there was like a dancing on her grave. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you go back and listen to the way that
Speaker 1: for example, Chris Matthews, who I like and respect very much,
Speaker 1: and I you know, I detail this in the book
Speaker 1: that I wrote about it. A lot of people were
Speaker 1: just thrilled that Hillary was not only gonna lose, she
Speaker 1: was gonna lose early, and she was going to be humiliated.
Speaker 1: And there was all of this really premature grave dancing
Speaker 1: in those days between Iowa and New Hampshire and the
Speaker 1: moment that she cried. I mean, at the time, I
Speaker 1: was somebody who was not terrifically sympathetic to Hillary Clinton,
Speaker 1: and I had become so enraged listening to the media
Speaker 1: get excited about her impending doom, and it's it's like
Speaker 1: it had all come into focus for me. It obviously
Speaker 1: made her more vulnerable, and I think powerful women become
Speaker 1: more palatable and more appealing when they show us their vulnerabilities.
Speaker 1: But there's something else about women and crying, which is
Speaker 1: crying for many of us, is the way that we
Speaker 1: expressed that we're incredibly piste off. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: the relationship between showing emotion and anger. And by the way,
Speaker 1: I should also clarify, she didn't cry. There's not a
Speaker 1: single tear that fell from her eyes. She gets stuffy, okay,
Speaker 1: But but there was something about that. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: that it was just that we all, like our sisters,
Speaker 1: weep be right, which was sort of the red of
Speaker 1: the media. I think it was there were a lot
Speaker 1: of women in New Hampshire and they're the voters who
Speaker 1: surprisingly put her over the top. In New Hampshire, and
Speaker 1: she staged a huge surprise win in New Hampshire like
Speaker 1: the next day, and I actually think it was a
Speaker 1: lot of angry women. I sort of see it that
Speaker 1: moment as being more about anger than about like a
Speaker 1: sort of soggy vulnerability. But it is true that the
Speaker 1: moments in two thousand eight when she successfully talked about
Speaker 1: her place in history, and that she was able to
Speaker 1: do so in a way that was compelling and inspiring
Speaker 1: to people, were the moments of loss. So the greatest
Speaker 1: speech she gave in two thousand eight was the concession
Speaker 1: speech about the glass, about the glass ceiling, and about
Speaker 1: for me, I mean the parts of it that about
Speaker 1: shooting fifty women into space, which was an is incredible
Speaker 1: piece of speech writing the fiftie woman to leave this
Speaker 1: Earth is orbiting overhead. If we can blast fifty women
Speaker 1: into space, we will someday launch a woman into the
Speaker 1: White House. And although we weren't able, the shadow that
Speaker 1: highest hardest glass ceiling this time, thanks to you, it's
Speaker 1: got about eighteen million tracks in it, and the light
Speaker 1: is shining through like never before, filling us all with
Speaker 1: the hope and the sure knowledge that the path will
Speaker 1: be a little easier next time. Um. That was a
Speaker 1: beautiful speech, and she really marked her place in history.
Speaker 1: And but that was also a moment where she was
Speaker 1: no longer a threat. We do not like women who
Speaker 1: talk about how great they are, but of course that
Speaker 1: is the job of a politician running for office. And
Speaker 1: one of the things that she was free to do
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight when she lost was sort
Speaker 1: of talk about how great she was, or at least
Speaker 1: how historical she was in a way that wasn't threatening
Speaker 1: anymore because she wasn't up for the job. But don't
Speaker 1: we dislike when men talk about how great they are too?
Speaker 1: I mean I I get turned off by conceited people
Speaker 1: in general, right well, and then in a political context
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be running for office. There of course
Speaker 1: they're out there telling us that they're better than their opponent.
Speaker 1: But that's still disconcerting and hard for us to hear,
Speaker 1: or at least hard for us to feel warmly about
Speaker 1: when it's a woman. And I think it's especially true
Speaker 1: by the way. I think it's going to get easier
Speaker 1: for her now that she's in the general. That was
Speaker 1: especially true when the people she's addressing or people who
Speaker 1: are divided in their loyalties between her and Bernie Sanders
Speaker 1: in this past race, and between her and Barack Obama
Speaker 1: in two thousand eight, another person who has good politics.
Speaker 1: I mean, she you're you're dividing your natural base because
Speaker 1: everybody sort of has the same ideas about policy and ideology.
Speaker 1: And you have these two candidates who probably many of
Speaker 1: us felt warmly about in one way or another. And
Speaker 1: it's even harder to hear the woman saying I am
Speaker 1: essentially saying I'm the better candidate for this job than
Speaker 1: that guy. That is still very discomfiting for us. I
Speaker 1: would say this time around, she embraced her gender much
Speaker 1: more enthusiastically. Why well, I think she realized it had
Speaker 1: been a mistake in two thousand eight. I mean, there
Speaker 1: was there are lessons that I think she drew from
Speaker 1: Barack Obama's campaign correctly. Um. He also was very careful
Speaker 1: and had to be in terms of how he talked
Speaker 1: about race. But what he was very successful at was
Speaker 1: making this kind of emotional compact with voters, like we're
Speaker 1: making history together, We're doing this important thing. We can
Speaker 1: all feel good about ourselves because we are working towards
Speaker 1: something that is very overdue and a grave injustice in
Speaker 1: the United States, and we're working towards a small correction
Speaker 1: of it that will actually be a big correction of it. Um,
Speaker 1: it doesn't work, it's it's not a parallel set of
Speaker 1: strategies around around women's progress in the United States. But
Speaker 1: I think that she took some lesson, which is that
Speaker 1: people want to feel celebratory and good about making history,
Speaker 1: and this is making history. This country has a hard
Speaker 1: time unambivalently celebrating milestones and women's rights. It's very complicated,
Speaker 1: and it's and it's very fraught, and Hillary is walking
Speaker 1: right into that. It's also fraught because of who she
Speaker 1: is and the baggage she brings to the conversation. Absolutely
Speaker 1: she brings. But on the other hand, taking apart who
Speaker 1: Hillary is and who she's become and how she's become
Speaker 1: that way, you can't do that with also without looking
Speaker 1: at her as somebody who is formed, um by being
Speaker 1: this rather anomalous woman in an extremely male world. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's which is not to make excuses. That's not the
Speaker 1: same thing as making excuses for the various negative things
Speaker 1: about Hillary Clinton and and there are many of them. Um.
Speaker 1: But it is to say that it's not an accident
Speaker 1: that this is the candidate we got right, we didn't.
Speaker 1: It's not a passive, you know, sort of quirk of
Speaker 1: nature that this is the person who bubbled up to
Speaker 1: be the first woman president. Right to some degree, Hillary
Speaker 1: Clinton was also made by the very history that she
Speaker 1: is now campaigning to change. If that makes any sense,
Speaker 1: it does, it does, and it doesn't because I think
Speaker 1: you have to also consider the Clinton legacy and the
Speaker 1: Clinton baggage in general. It's not just Hillary Clinton. It's
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying on one level, but I
Speaker 1: also wonder if there would be the possibility of a
Speaker 1: woman without quite this much baggage, with the kind of
Speaker 1: choices and judgments that had been made in the past,
Speaker 1: to rise to the surface. Sure there will be a
Speaker 1: woman who comes after her who has none of this baggage, right,
Speaker 1: or who has a different set of baggage. But but
Speaker 1: if you look at the history of women in American politics,
Speaker 1: the first women, the first mayors, the first representatives, the
Speaker 1: first governors, um, almost all of them arrived there in
Speaker 1: one way or another via the widows mandate or taking
Speaker 1: over their father's Here, I mean, historically speaking, it was
Speaker 1: practically inevitable that the first female president was probably going
Speaker 1: to have a strong relationship to a male president. In
Speaker 1: in our history, proximity to power has been the closest
Speaker 1: that most women have gotten to power, and therefore the
Speaker 1: first women to actually break through have been the ones
Speaker 1: who started with proximal power and necessary rung on the
Speaker 1: ladder if you will, I mean, I think even if
Speaker 1: she doesn't get elected, h the mark of her political
Speaker 1: legacy is so big, both between two thousand and eight
Speaker 1: and this year, that it is already readjusted. She's helped
Speaker 1: already to readjust our eyes and ears to the idea
Speaker 1: of what somebody could look like on a presidential stage.
Speaker 1: He's not a white guy. I have to ask you
Speaker 1: about the white pants suit, because I didn't realize until
Speaker 1: recently how symbolic that was that Geraldine Ferraro wore white.
Speaker 1: For example, and there have been other examples, the Suffragets.
Speaker 1: It was it was the color of the suffragists. These
Speaker 1: suffragists wore white with gold and purple um sashes. So
Speaker 1: that was probably no mistake. Wasn't that she wore a
Speaker 1: white pant suit, which I thought looked really nice. By
Speaker 1: the way, is that wrong for me to say I'm
Speaker 1: all by the way, I should say. We we talked
Speaker 1: earlier about sort of being critical about clothes. I'm on
Speaker 1: the bandwagon for discussing clothes because that's part of the history. Again,
Speaker 1: we've never had a president who wore pant suits, who
Speaker 1: you know, had to worry about cleavage. And in two
Speaker 1: thousand eight, there was an article in the Washington Post
Speaker 1: about Hillary is clevange, but she never really bugged me,
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm glad you brought that up, because
Speaker 1: that really annoyed me, the tone and angle of that story.
Speaker 1: I don't mind sort of discussing it because it's something
Speaker 1: that people notice and think about and contemplate. But I
Speaker 1: didn't like. I just don't. I didn't like the way
Speaker 1: the person wrote that piece. That's very fair. The thing
Speaker 1: I would defend is the noting, for example, that she
Speaker 1: wore white when she accepted the nomination. And we can't
Speaker 1: be so uptight that we can't talk about it. I
Speaker 1: just wish men had more interesting garments to sport, because
Speaker 1: they're so boring. There's nothing to really talk about, and
Speaker 1: that's why, you know, when I did the CBS Evening News,
Speaker 1: a lot of people commented on my clothes and my
Speaker 1: hair and my makeup and the way I held my hands,
Speaker 1: and it was you know, there's a fine line of noticing, appreciating,
Speaker 1: even discussing, and having that be the prevalent thing that
Speaker 1: is coming for people, right And the amount of energy
Speaker 1: that you I mean, I imagine that you spent having
Speaker 1: even to listen to that stuff compared to your male predecessors,
Speaker 1: to your male colleagues. I'm sure that was also true
Speaker 1: on the Today Show. I mean, I'm pretty sure you
Speaker 1: think anybody is Do you think anybody discusses what Scott
Speaker 1: Pelley is wearing during an interview? Ever? Ever? But anyway,
Speaker 1: enough about me, Let's talk about Hillary and how she
Speaker 1: was able to just to put a button on this
Speaker 1: clothing conversation neutralize the whole discussion about what she was wearing.
Speaker 1: I read. I mean, it's so interesting to me, Rebucca,
Speaker 1: I just read a whole piece on how pants suit?
Speaker 1: Why are women wearing pants suits and men wearing suits?
Speaker 1: Pant suits? The term started to be used in the
Speaker 1: eighteen sixties, when little boys were shorts with their jackets,
Speaker 1: and there is something slightly demeaning about pants in santalizing rights,
Speaker 1: which is what we That's one of the ways we
Speaker 1: deal with women is we treat them like their children
Speaker 1: if we're going to indulge the clothes thing for more. Second,
Speaker 1: I have to say that my very favorite sartorial period
Speaker 1: for Rillery was when she was Secretary of State. She
Speaker 1: started wearing these big pattern dresses. I thought about it, like,
Speaker 1: I mean, kind of move moves I mean, and it's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, the thing about that period was that the
Speaker 1: way she was dressing and handling herself, she was so busy,
Speaker 1: and it seemed like she was so powerful and like
Speaker 1: she just didn't give a ship for me. It was
Speaker 1: her at her most sort of beautiful. If I'm going
Speaker 1: to evaluate the sartorial choices, but now I think she's
Speaker 1: so busy it's just as easy to have a set
Speaker 1: of pants suits. And she knew that if she wore
Speaker 1: a big pattern dress right now on the presidential trail,
Speaker 1: I would never hear the end of it. It would
Speaker 1: be armageddon. So you know, Hillary has very bad numbers
Speaker 1: when it comes to trustworthiness, no surprise and likability, but
Speaker 1: so does Donald Trump on the likability front. How much
Speaker 1: of the I don't trust her is a proxy for
Speaker 1: good old fashioned sexism in your view, well a lot
Speaker 1: of it. Um. I'm actually in the midst of writing
Speaker 1: a piece, um that delves into the history of distrust
Speaker 1: and women and the way that we can talk about
Speaker 1: women is fundamentally unreliable, as deceptive, um, as a way
Speaker 1: of diminishing their potential power of the history and that
Speaker 1: a little bit. I mean, I I interviewed somebody, so
Speaker 1: I'm I'm writing this piece, and I interviewed a professor
Speaker 1: who said to me for and it was such a
Speaker 1: great point. She said, whenever we talk about our dislike
Speaker 1: for women, so often it comes down to the fact
Speaker 1: that you just can't trust them in a way that
Speaker 1: goes back to the Bible. I mean, this sense that
Speaker 1: women are fundamentally deceptive and duplicitous is an extremely old
Speaker 1: theme with Hillary Clinton. You have somebody if you're just
Speaker 1: going to compare Clinton and Trump on this on this ground, right,
Speaker 1: they're all these like PolitiFact rates, you know, people's truthfulness,
Speaker 1: and if you look at the charts of sort of
Speaker 1: twenty of the most powerful politicians in the country, right now,
Speaker 1: Hillary come is in second, right below Barack Obama and
Speaker 1: just above Bernie Sanders and Jeb Bush. Interestingly as a
Speaker 1: sort of most truthful politician. Jill Abramson, who was another
Speaker 1: female first and she was the former editor of the
Speaker 1: New York Times, wrote a big piece in The Guardian
Speaker 1: about as somebody who had been in charge of all
Speaker 1: these investigations into Hillary Clinton's purported malfeasance. What she found,
Speaker 1: after having reported on it and edited pieces about these
Speaker 1: massive investigations, was that she was a fundamentally honest person. Um.
Speaker 1: And yet these allegations that she's that she's duplicit as
Speaker 1: stick to her. We just can't trust her. There's something
Speaker 1: about her we can't trust. It is irrational based on
Speaker 1: what we actually know. And we can take one story
Speaker 1: like the emails, um, you know, the fact that she
Speaker 1: did her own she set up our own server and
Speaker 1: went around and that can be our evidence, um and
Speaker 1: fair enough, except that Colin Powell also, you know, operated
Speaker 1: in similar ways with regard to the emails there. I mean,
Speaker 1: but in fairness, wasn't the FBI investigation. She didn't say
Speaker 1: I never sent classified information where there was classified information.
Speaker 1: According to COMI on seven of those email changes. I
Speaker 1: mean it's it's not quite. It's not as cut and
Speaker 1: dried as that. And that's why, in many ways, I
Speaker 1: don't know that Hillary Clinton's um dishonesty, which is and
Speaker 1: there are moments of it. I don't know that that
Speaker 1: sets her apart from politicians. Politicians are known to be dishonest,
Speaker 1: and Hillary Clinton is a politician who is sometimes dishonest.
Speaker 1: The way in which it is blown up to be
Speaker 1: the most salient feature of Hillary Clinton, I think flies
Speaker 1: in the face of rationality. Then you look at somebody
Speaker 1: like Donald Trump. Donald Trump delights in lying to us
Speaker 1: every day. He takes pleasure in it. He contradicts the
Speaker 1: thing he said the day before. He tells you something
Speaker 1: that is easily disprovable with like four seconds on Google.
Speaker 1: He it's like he practically enjoys getting away with the stuff.
Speaker 1: And when we talk when when when voters talk positively
Speaker 1: about what they like about Donald Trump, what is it?
Speaker 1: He's a straight talker. He tells it like it is.
Speaker 1: He says the things we're thinking and can't say. Right
Speaker 1: he is. There's something transparent and even though he's disliked,
Speaker 1: you're right. He also has very bad favorability numbers. The
Speaker 1: reason that people one of the reasons people say they
Speaker 1: like him is because there's something just straightforward about him.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's probably gendered in ways that
Speaker 1: are very deep and very complicated. Conversely, what we're seeing
Speaker 1: happen in the Trump campaign is fascinating in terms of
Speaker 1: it's I would say cluelessness about women's issues, as evidenced
Speaker 1: by the comments he has made recently about sexual harassment.
Speaker 1: I would say I got into television when harass was
Speaker 1: two words instead of one. It's a very good line,
Speaker 1: thank you. It always gets a laugh. I also say
Speaker 1: that gravitas is Latin for testicles. So obviously I come
Speaker 1: to this from a very unique and probably specific point
Speaker 1: of view. But I thought watching this conversation about sexual
Speaker 1: harassment of the workplace has been fascinating because I feel
Speaker 1: that I have been in a time machine and taken
Speaker 1: back to a Mad Men episode in terms of the
Speaker 1: understanding of sexual harassment by Donald Trump, when he says
Speaker 1: if Ivanka was treated like that, I think she wouldn't
Speaker 1: put up with it, or she would go get another job,
Speaker 1: or she right Um and even her brother saying similar
Speaker 1: things too tough and strong that would never happen to her. So, um,
Speaker 1: what do you think of those comments? My perspective on
Speaker 1: them is that they're probably not as clueless as we think.
Speaker 1: You know, you think they're playing Yeah, well, I think
Speaker 1: their cluelessness is part of their appeal to the audience.
Speaker 1: I think that Donald Trump takes a pride in and
Speaker 1: understands that part of his popularity is based on the
Speaker 1: fact that his worldview when it comes to gender and
Speaker 1: race is rooted in a madman or uh that is.
Speaker 1: I thought at the beginning of his campaign that there
Speaker 1: would be corrections of this stuff, And the more I
Speaker 1: see it continue, and you know, these kind of comments
Speaker 1: grow worse, the more I suspect that this is in
Speaker 1: fact what he's running on. He's not going to correct
Speaker 1: it because it's part of what makes his base love him.
Speaker 1: There was a video published on the New York Times
Speaker 1: website that that shows unedited comments from Trump supporters, and
Speaker 1: it is clear that part and they are racist epithets,
Speaker 1: sexist epithets. And what becomes clear watching at least the
Speaker 1: enthusiasm at those rallies, which are of course part of
Speaker 1: what's powering his popularity that there's excitement that there is
Speaker 1: a guy who would still be clueless about sexual harassment
Speaker 1: and take a perverse kind of pride in it, who
Speaker 1: doesn't care about sexual harassment, who does view women and
Speaker 1: black people um as subsidiary populations in some way over
Speaker 1: whom he exerts a kind of authority. That is part
Speaker 1: And so I have, yes, maybe clueless, but the expression
Speaker 1: of his cluelessness I don't think is an error on
Speaker 1: his part. I think it is part of what he
Speaker 1: is running on. Sometimes I wonder about the women's vote
Speaker 1: because I think about the wives and many of these disenfranchised, alienated,
Speaker 1: working class voters who are perhaps more traditional and live
Speaker 1: in areas that are less urban. Are we discounting the
Speaker 1: possibility that in some cases women adapt the political positions
Speaker 1: of their husbands. No, that's real. Married women vote Republican.
Speaker 1: So white women vote Republican. So is it too big
Speaker 1: a stretch to say that women are gonna come out
Speaker 1: for Hillary and she's going to do super well? Too
Speaker 1: big a stretch? The populations of women who come out
Speaker 1: for who are likely, based on past polling data and
Speaker 1: past elections, to come out for Hillary, are young women,
Speaker 1: women of color, a single lady. Married women who have
Speaker 1: just written a book about unmarried women are perhaps one
Speaker 1: of the more powerful vote blocks in the country, and
Speaker 1: one of the biggest in they were of the electorate. Um.
Speaker 1: They by many measures one Barack Obama reelection UM, and
Speaker 1: they are predicted in it's predicted that of women voters
Speaker 1: more will be unmarried than married, and they vote very left.
Speaker 1: They need a new compact with their government. They need
Speaker 1: a new set of social policies. They need things like
Speaker 1: paid leave, higher minimum wage, subsidized childcare, equal pay protections,
Speaker 1: all kinds of things that Democrats are promising. Um. Single
Speaker 1: women are likely to vote for Hillary Clinton, especially over
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, who's like a sexist ogre um, by a
Speaker 1: huge margin, probably much larger than what we saw in
Speaker 1: twelve if I were to guess, UM. But married women
Speaker 1: still tend to vote Republican by a smaller margin. Having
Speaker 1: said that, has Donald Trump changed that he may There
Speaker 1: are a lot of people who the female distaste for
Speaker 1: Donald Trump seems really high. UM. And it's hard to
Speaker 1: know and how we actually see how until we get
Speaker 1: more polling and until we see how people actually act
Speaker 1: when they go into a voting booth. Um, because I
Speaker 1: think there are some hardcore female Donald Trump supporters. She's
Speaker 1: you know, they are angry about some of the same
Speaker 1: things his male supporters are angry about. And I think
Speaker 1: that they're being underestimated. Yeah, I mean, I think that
Speaker 1: they are being underestimated. I think they're going to be
Speaker 1: very vocal, very loud, And yes, I do think. I
Speaker 1: certainly think that there's going to be a big percentage
Speaker 1: of women who vote for Donald Trump. I don't think
Speaker 1: it probably is going to be as big um as
Speaker 1: it might have been were it Marco Rubio or Jeb
Speaker 1: Bush that Hillary Clinton was running against. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: your time with Hillary Clinton on the trail and bring
Speaker 1: it full circle. You spent a lot of time with
Speaker 1: the Clinton campaign. You wrote a piece for New York
Speaker 1: Magazine all about her. Tell us something about Hillary Clinton
Speaker 1: that we don't know. Well, you know, the thing that
Speaker 1: I will say, having spent time with her is something
Speaker 1: that you probably you may not feel it, but you
Speaker 1: may have also heard it from other people have spent
Speaker 1: time with her. She's very funny, and she's immensely warm,
Speaker 1: and she's quite relaxed. And I think that those things
Speaker 1: are I just heard people putting on their brakes all
Speaker 1: over America and going what Yes. I was really struck
Speaker 1: by because for years, as somebody who had written about
Speaker 1: Hillary and written and read everything that's ever been written
Speaker 1: about her, um, I knew that there was this split
Speaker 1: between how people who know her say she is, Oh,
Speaker 1: she's funny, she has a great sense of humor, she
Speaker 1: laughs all the time, she loves her friends, versus her
Speaker 1: public perception, which is like cold, driving, ambitious, calculating, you know,
Speaker 1: can't communicate with anybody. I knew that there was this dichotomy.
Speaker 1: And then when I, you know, sort of got in
Speaker 1: and got to spend time with her, sure enough, I
Speaker 1: was like, wow, it really is true. But I think
Speaker 1: the thing that surprised me so I was like, right,
Speaker 1: she is funny, and she does laugh, and she has
Speaker 1: a great sense of humor and clearly has a terrifically
Speaker 1: warm relationship with the people who are who are in
Speaker 1: her in her circle. The thing that I didn't know
Speaker 1: was how calm she'd seen. The other thing is that
Speaker 1: she was so good at the basics of campaigning. We
Speaker 1: hear all the time about Hillary Clinton is not a
Speaker 1: natural candidate, and it's true She's not a natural orator,
Speaker 1: but the sort of handshaking, remembering everybody's name, remembering a detail,
Speaker 1: Oh I remember when we saw each other, however many
Speaker 1: days ago, how's your kid doing, how's that? Kind of
Speaker 1: glad handing retail politics. She was just absolutely smooth and capable,
Speaker 1: and it was like watching an Olympic athlete. That was
Speaker 1: also surprising to me. There was nothing awkward or chilly
Speaker 1: about her one on one or with the people that
Speaker 1: she was talking to on the trail. Are they going
Speaker 1: to unleash this? Hillary Clinton? Will she allow herself to
Speaker 1: be unleash Like Aladdin comes out of that little lamp
Speaker 1: and suddenly you're going to say, oh my gosh, she's
Speaker 1: so much different than I thought. I think that they
Speaker 1: would like to unleash her, but I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's possible on a large scale. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: one of the challenges. All this stuff is in one
Speaker 1: on one campaigning or in small groups. As soon as
Speaker 1: you put her on a stage in front of a
Speaker 1: large crowd, it becomes much more difficult. She's capable of it,
Speaker 1: but it's a much more difficult project. They won't let
Speaker 1: her talk to enough reporters to press. It's insane. Let
Speaker 1: me talk to her, let me do an interview with her.
Speaker 1: I've known her since nineteen two. I did her first
Speaker 1: interview as first lady. I'm like, just let her be herself. Obviously,
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask tough questions, duh. But I think
Speaker 1: she needs to to show that side of her. And
Speaker 1: I just don't understand why they're so reticent. I think
Speaker 1: he has put her in a put her in a
Speaker 1: venue where it will come out. I have. I have
Speaker 1: had the same frustrations for many years. I mean it's
Speaker 1: been many years that I've been asking to talk to
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton in one capass or another, and it took
Speaker 1: a really long time. Um. I think she has an
Speaker 1: antipathy toward the press, and I think, though I may
Speaker 1: understand some of it, she's had. You know, she's had
Speaker 1: a rough time of it. I always say I hate
Speaker 1: the press, that I am one, But this is an
Speaker 1: instance in which I think it would be good for
Speaker 1: everybody if she could figure out a way to get
Speaker 1: over it. And I don't. I don't see that happening.
Speaker 1: And to bring it full circle, how does she are
Speaker 1: white men of a certain age just a lost cause?
Speaker 1: At this point, Well, there's certainly not a loss cause
Speaker 1: in terms of the policies that she's putting forth. I mean,
Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about the platform and the
Speaker 1: way she's campaigning is that she's working hard for them,
Speaker 1: and you know, college educated white men are actually breaking
Speaker 1: for her. I'm talking about working classing class white men.
Speaker 1: She's having a very hard time with UM, and there
Speaker 1: are all kinds of arguments about why that might be.
Speaker 1: One of the interesting things about her campaign is that
Speaker 1: while strategically, I think there is an argument that she
Speaker 1: could sort of cut the losses on that because her base,
Speaker 1: you know, of voters of color women that that strategically
Speaker 1: the best move is to turn out the vote in
Speaker 1: those areas, she is actually choosing to really work hard
Speaker 1: for the for the working class white vote. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is she picked Tim Kane, and there are there
Speaker 1: are a lot of arguments for picking a running mate
Speaker 1: who would be both more progressive and in many ways
Speaker 1: appeal to other to other populations, to our constituencies. Um,
Speaker 1: she picked the white guy, the southern white guy. UM.
Speaker 1: Talking about raising the minimum wage, infrastructure jobs, green jobs, UM.
Speaker 1: These are all economic issues that would have a profound
Speaker 1: impact on America's white working class, whether or not she
Speaker 1: wins their votes. It is true that she's proposing policy
Speaker 1: that would hopefully be good for them, but Donald Trump
Speaker 1: is tapping into a feeling, and those are two very
Speaker 1: different things. What about Bernie bros. You know, we hear
Speaker 1: and young feminists or young women in general. Um, Madeline
Speaker 1: Albright got into a lot of trouble when she said
Speaker 1: her famous line, which I've often quoted, there's a special
Speaker 1: place in hell for women who help don't help other women.
Speaker 1: And I think young women felt that was a real affront,
Speaker 1: saying we're not going to vote for Hillary simply because
Speaker 1: she is female. Do you think that they've come around?
Speaker 1: And what about male supporters of Bernie Sanders under the
Speaker 1: age of thirty, for example, Well, by this I haven't
Speaker 1: seen the numbers post convention, but at this going into
Speaker 1: the convention, more former Bernie supporters had said that they
Speaker 1: were going to vote for Hillary Clinton than Hillary supporters
Speaker 1: said they were going to vote for Barack Obama going
Speaker 1: into the two thousand eight conventions. So I don't have
Speaker 1: a tremendous worry um that they're not going to come around.
Speaker 1: What about women under the age of thirty. You know,
Speaker 1: there there was this generational divide when it came to
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, at least in the primaries. Uh, what are
Speaker 1: you hearing from some of them? My impression is that
Speaker 1: a lot of young women are actually and I've heard
Speaker 1: from a lot of them who are Bernie supporters, who
Speaker 1: are going to vote for Hillary Clinton. I think young
Speaker 1: women are going to move to Hillary Clinton fairly quickly.
Speaker 1: I think many of them already have, and I think
Speaker 1: some of them actually were excited. Many of many of
Speaker 1: the Bernie supporting young women didn't hate Hillary Clinton. A
Speaker 1: lot of people, and it's it's very natural for young
Speaker 1: people to lean more left than older people. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's and that's part of what was being presented by
Speaker 1: the Bernie Hillary choice is that Bernie the perception was
Speaker 1: that Bernie had left or politics more radical politics. And
Speaker 1: I think it's very natural and healthy for young people
Speaker 1: to prefer radical politics. It's likewise natural and healthy for
Speaker 1: older people who have seen some of the sausage made
Speaker 1: to have perhaps a more moderate take on on the approach.
Speaker 1: And so I didn't find that generational divide a sign
Speaker 1: of like feminisms imminent demise or anything. And I do
Speaker 1: think that a vastly large percentage of all Bernie voters,
Speaker 1: and especially young women, never felt intense antipathy towards Hillary.
Speaker 1: Some of them did, some of them did, and some
Speaker 1: of them may change their minds on that, or may
Speaker 1: reluctantly vote for her, or may abstain. But and then
Speaker 1: we'll see how they feel about her if she becomes
Speaker 1: the president. You know, we'll see how everybody feels power
Speaker 1: she becomes the president. UM. But I'm not worried that
Speaker 1: young women as a population are going to stay away
Speaker 1: from the polls um in November. I actually think that
Speaker 1: many people who think they don't care, many people to
Speaker 1: assume young women don't care about electing a woman president.
Speaker 1: I believe they'll be surprised, this is my guests, by
Speaker 1: the number of women who wind up turning out to
Speaker 1: vote for her and feel pretty excited about it. Rebecca Trast,
Speaker 1: it's so fun to talk to you. It was really
Speaker 1: fun to be here. Thanks for having me. Thanks to
Speaker 1: Gretta Cone and the right Reverend John Delor for producing
Speaker 1: the show. Reverend, I wonder how many shows before you
Speaker 1: stop doing that. Thanks to Mark Phillips for our theme
Speaker 1: music and Thank you for listening. If you want to
Speaker 1: leave us a message, please do so. At let me
Speaker 1: do this part nine to four, four six, three seven.
Speaker 1: Please subscribe, rate and review the podcast. It helps other
Speaker 1: listeners to find the show. And we'll talk to you
Speaker 1: next time. Bye. We adjusted Katie's medicine this morning. It's
Speaker 1: really the single. It is the single. It is you're
Speaker 1: doing it like as Liza Vanelli. Where is that Todd
Speaker 1: the New God? Okay, I'll stop. I'm gonna be reviewing
Speaker 1: my contract right after this