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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm well, Paul, I will say I'm well to an

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Speaker 1: extent that I feel like I have to get something

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Speaker 1: cleared up for our listeners, because there are quite a

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Speaker 1: few people who, while they are proud of you that

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Speaker 1: you've taken on a new job, are concerned that this

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Speaker 1: new job that you're going to explain to me in

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Speaker 1: a second is going to make your time so limited

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Speaker 1: that you can't be with me anymore, which would be

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Speaker 1: a tragedy.

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Speaker 2: I think, oh, yeah, it's like I don't already have

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Speaker 2: enough to do.

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Speaker 1: I know, that's what I was thinking. Well, tell me

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Speaker 1: about this new gig. I know you announced it on

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Speaker 1: social media. It's been a little while, but I just

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Speaker 1: want to clear up for people. You're not going anywhere.

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Speaker 1: You're not going anywhere, Paul, right, You're not going anywhere.

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Speaker 2: I am not going anywhere, you know. Of course, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I love doing the podcasting. I like doing the true

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Speaker 2: crime media side of things, but also, as you know,

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Speaker 2: my passion is always the actual casework. And it's been

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Speaker 2: six years, you know. I retired six years ago. It's

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Speaker 2: crazy that six years has gone by so fast, you know.

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Speaker 2: And that's of course everybody knows. That's when we arrested

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Speaker 2: Joseph DiAngelo as a Golden State killer back in April

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Speaker 2: twenty and eighteen. And though I've been consulting with law

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Speaker 2: enforcement off and on over the last six years, it

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Speaker 2: was time and so I took a position as a

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Speaker 2: forensic investigator with Authoram, which is the genealogy company. I've

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Speaker 2: been so impressed with what Authoram is doing in terms

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Speaker 2: of the success that they've had, you know, solving cases

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Speaker 2: as well as identifying the Jane and John does and

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Speaker 2: then also the philosophy that they've taken and how they

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Speaker 2: approach casework, and they're looking out for the cases, and

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Speaker 2: they're looking out for the victim samples and the evidence,

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Speaker 2: and it just seemed like a good fit. So now

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Speaker 2: my role is is I will be helping law enforcement out.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll be going to their agency and sometimes I'll

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Speaker 2: be doing it remotely, helping them assess their cases and see,

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Speaker 2: you know, how they can progress it and of course

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Speaker 2: looking at you know, which cases genealogy might be able

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Speaker 2: to be used to solve the case. And then when

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Speaker 2: results come back, then I help provide the investigators with

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Speaker 2: the next steps, you know, advice on how to proceed

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Speaker 2: both from an investigative and genealogy type of set of

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Speaker 2: circumstances as well as just with other additional forensic testing

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Speaker 2: that may need to be done. Investigative advice, and so

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Speaker 2: I'll be very active on that front.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: So you know, fortunately, you know, I'll be able to

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Speaker 2: continue with podcasting. You and I will continue to be

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Speaker 2: able to you know, share stories together and hopefully hang

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Speaker 2: out in the near future.

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Speaker 1: Well, one thing that I think is one of your

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Speaker 1: secret powers is because you've been exposed to so many

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Speaker 1: cases and now will be to even more. That just

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Speaker 1: deepens the depth that you have of knowledge of all

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Speaker 1: of these crimes. And you know, one thing I always

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Speaker 1: joke about is every single thing that I say about

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Speaker 1: a crime that happened in history. I feel like you

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Speaker 1: have a case in your head that you can relate

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Speaker 1: it to, and I think that really helps listeners. So

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Speaker 1: I am all for you getting involved in all kinds

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Speaker 1: of active cases, and of course particularly it's just so

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Speaker 1: good for the communities and for you to be able

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Speaker 1: to actively help solve cases is a big deal. And selfishly,

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Speaker 1: of course, I'm happy for you to have more knowledge

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Speaker 1: to share with us, and you know, we can keep

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Speaker 1: up with what you're doing, so that's great. I'm all

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Speaker 1: for I'm going to sign off on this. Thanks for

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Speaker 1: passing it by me. I'll sign off on this. I'm

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Speaker 1: proud of you. I think that's wonderful.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Kate, thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to make sure, because you're so

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Speaker 1: busy our qua and the fish is everybody okay? Are

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Speaker 1: they lacking attention in any way?

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Speaker 2: Kor is doing good, The fish are doing good. And

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Speaker 2: if I remember from the last episode, you brought up

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Speaker 2: a dog shep.

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Speaker 1: I did. Boy, you transitioned really well from core to shep.

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Speaker 1: Shep is a I would call a big influencer in

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Speaker 1: this case. And I'll tell you why in a minute,

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Speaker 1: and you can tell me what the theory is. What

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Speaker 1: we're about to talk about are actually some questions that

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Speaker 1: I think probably do come up in contemporary cases. And

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Speaker 1: again that's why we like talking about this case like

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Speaker 1: the one of John Hassick, who I'll remind you was

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Speaker 1: found in his very tiny bed that he shared with

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Speaker 1: his wife one December night nineteen hundred in Iowa, and

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Speaker 1: he is bleeding from the head. The doctor who responds

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Speaker 1: seems to think he was hit twice, once with the

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Speaker 1: sharp end of an axe, the other with the blunt

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Speaker 1: end of the axe. Brains everywhere, blood everywhere, five young

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Speaker 1: kids in the house. His wife says, I was asleep.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea what happened. I thought it was

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Speaker 1: a stranger. She jumped out of bed so fast she

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Speaker 1: didn't even turn around to see if John was still

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Speaker 1: in bed, and came back after kind of clearing out

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Speaker 1: the house with one of the kids and found him

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Speaker 1: and he dies painfully. I'm assuming About ten hours later

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Speaker 1: and investigators come, they start looking for the weapon. The

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Speaker 1: sheriff is immediately looking suspiciously at the family. Sure, and

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Speaker 1: part of it has to do, as I teased with you,

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Speaker 1: with Shep, who was the family dog, who was devoted

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Speaker 1: and loving, barked at every single stranger he could see.

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Speaker 1: And the neighbors say that when this happened, from what

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Speaker 1: they could tell, Shep did not let out a peep.

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Speaker 1: And this sheriff says, I think you know what I'm

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Speaker 1: about to say, Paul, it had to be someone in

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Speaker 1: the family. If this dog did not bark, it was

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Speaker 1: not random stranger on the neighbor's porch. Is that legit?

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Speaker 2: Okay? So on the surface I would say yes. However,

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Speaker 2: because of my experience with the Golden State killer Joseph DiAngelo,

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Speaker 2: we had multiple victims, rape victims survivors who had dogs

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Speaker 2: who these victims swore would bark at any strange man

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Speaker 2: entering the house. But when at the time he was

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Speaker 2: known as East Air rapist, when the East Air rapists

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Speaker 2: showed up inside the house, these dogs did not bark.

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Speaker 2: In fact, some of them whimpered away. The thought is

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Speaker 2: what DiAngelo, as he possibly preconditioned these dogs ahead of

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Speaker 2: time with some sort of negative reinforcement. I mean, DiAngelo

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Speaker 2: is arrested in part shoplifting dog repellent? Is he going

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Speaker 2: and you know, spraying these pet dogs ahead of time?

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Speaker 2: So or they're now associating being sprayed with his presence

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Speaker 2: and now they they know to stay away from him

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Speaker 2: and don't behave as their owners think. Now I don't

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Speaker 2: think that's what's going on here, you know, but it's

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Speaker 2: something where just because of my experience looking at this

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Speaker 2: one case where dogs did not respond as the owner's thought,

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Speaker 2: I have to consider. You know, dogs are much more

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Speaker 2: complex animals than what we give them credit for, and

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Speaker 2: they possibly with a stranger present, recognize the danger maybe

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Speaker 2: don't respond as the owners think they would.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, my dogs bark at me. Ruby and

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Speaker 1: Bailey bark at everything. One of them barked at a

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Speaker 1: fly the other day. So my dogs would be useless

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Speaker 1: with this theory because they bark at everything. But the

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Speaker 1: sheriff has an interesting and neighbors have kind of an

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Speaker 1: interesting theory. So this is the rumor mill that of

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Speaker 1: course circulates around every town, every city that you can

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Speaker 1: think of. It doesn't matter if it's a small town

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Speaker 1: or a massive city like New York, people are going

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Speaker 1: to talk. And the observation was that shep the dog,

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Speaker 1: the famous dog now seemed unusually lethargic and quiet hours,

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Speaker 1: you know, before John's attack happened. So this is probably

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Speaker 1: coming from the kids and from Margaret, I'm assuming, but

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Speaker 1: the neighbors buy into it, and the sheriff might be

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Speaker 1: buying into it. The theory is that the dog was

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Speaker 1: chloroformed ahead of the assault by the killer. Can you

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Speaker 1: chloroform a dog? I've never heard of that before. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what would you do?

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Speaker 2: I you know, in terms of the use of chloroform,

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Speaker 2: you know, obviously this is something that you know, back

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Speaker 2: in the day, the soul that it was known, you know,

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Speaker 2: it has this anesthesia like property to it. How chloroform

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Speaker 2: would be administered to a dog, I really don't know.

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Speaker 2: You know that in the movies you typically see the

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Speaker 2: chloroform on the ring that's put over you know, victims

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Speaker 2: nose and mouth and then they instantly, you know, lose consciousness,

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Speaker 2: which isn't the way. Chloroform doesn't work that fast. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of a myth, but it most certainly is something

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Speaker 2: that does cause can cause unconsciousness in terms of if

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Speaker 2: exposed to a high enough level. If this dog is

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Speaker 2: appearing lethargic, whether it's be chloroform or some other drug.

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Speaker 2: This is typical we see in neighbor disputes, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: where you throw a drug or a poison inside some

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Speaker 2: meat and throw it over the fence. The dog's going

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Speaker 2: to eat it, and then you have the negative ramifications

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Speaker 2: of what the dog has ingested. So if SHEP is

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Speaker 2: in fact being drugged ahead of time, then that tells

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Speaker 2: me well, the offender is aware of the presence of SHEP,

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Speaker 2: is aware of Shep's predilection to bark at strangers. But

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Speaker 2: does this necessarily eliminate a family member from drugging SHEP

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Speaker 2: because this family member wants to be able to just

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Speaker 2: make sure SHEP is not going to interfere, because we

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Speaker 2: know dogs are unpredictable. You get up in the middle

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Speaker 2: of the night, you know, I get up in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the night, and all of a sudden, core

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Speaker 2: is going crazy thinking it's breakfast time, you know, And

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Speaker 2: though that's the last thing I'd want if I want

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Speaker 2: to be sneaking around doing something bad inside my own house.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't think the sheriff thinks this is

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Speaker 1: some huge conspiracy, necessarily with the little kids and with Margaret,

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Speaker 1: but you know, he is thinking this is odd. People

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Speaker 1: who came, like the doctor who came in the early

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Speaker 1: morning hours, said yeah, the dog just seemed a lot

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Speaker 1: calmer than normal. And you do have strangers showing up.

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Speaker 1: I don't think doctor Morton has been hanging out at

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Speaker 1: the Hussig's house, So you do have people showing up.

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Speaker 1: And the dog seemed a little dopey, is what people said.

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Speaker 1: That could go either way, right, I mean, you do

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Speaker 1: have either somebody who knows there's a dog. You're right,

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Speaker 1: But then we come back to why would a stranger

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Speaker 1: do this? You know, a sexual assault could be a motive,

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Speaker 1: didn't happen, robbery could have been a motive didn't happen,

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Speaker 1: And you did mention let's look at political enemies. Or

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Speaker 1: he was a jerk to his family. He was probably

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Speaker 1: a jerk to other people too, So it's kind of

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Speaker 1: open right now. But the sheriff is definitely given the

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Speaker 1: side eye to Margaret, specifically, who was laying right next

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Speaker 1: to him.

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Speaker 2: As he should, you know, And this is part of

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Speaker 2: you know, when you start dealing with this particular type

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Speaker 2: of circumstance. Margaret is inside the room in this tiny

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Speaker 2: bed right next to John. For her statement, she's asleep

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Speaker 2: and wakes up. But you have to consider, well, she

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Speaker 2: might be the killer. And this comes back to victimology,

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Speaker 2: comes back to understanding the family dynamics and that Margaret

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Speaker 2: potentially has motive. She's tired of the abuse, and so

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Speaker 2: when John's asleep, he's at the lowest risk to her

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Speaker 2: as possible. This is when she could potentially take him

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Speaker 2: out and then of course stage this scene in a way,

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Speaker 2: you know, get rid of the murder weapon wherever that

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Speaker 2: ultimately gets disposed of, and then plants with her kids.

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Speaker 2: You know, this this circumstance where she's asleep and wakes

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Speaker 2: up her clap saw the flashing light, you know, and

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Speaker 2: then she immediately goes and wakes up the kids. You know.

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Speaker 2: So this is something you have to at least pay

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Speaker 2: attention to early on in the investigation.

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Speaker 1: So I want to have a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: reminder of their ages. So Margaret is fifty seven when

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Speaker 1: this happens, and John is fifty nine. Both of these

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Speaker 1: are people who work on a farm probably are pretty

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Speaker 1: physically fit. So he certainly is capable of violence, fighting back.

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Speaker 1: You know, we talk about the domestic violence, and she

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Speaker 1: is probably equally as capable of swinging in acts. So

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Speaker 1: we're not talking about I mean, you and I are

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Speaker 1: both I'm almost in my fifties and you're in your fifties.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about old old people. We're people. They

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Speaker 1: look a little older than probably they are when we

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Speaker 1: see their photos because of just the hard life and

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Speaker 1: the hard work that they've done. But they are very

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Speaker 1: capable of violence, both of them.

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Speaker 2: No for sure. And at least you couched when you

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Speaker 2: said that I was in my fifties. You couched, just

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Speaker 2: says they're not very old. And when they're talking about

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Speaker 2: Margaret and John being in their fifties, so thank you

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Speaker 2: for that.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome.

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Speaker 2: But you know, for sure, you know, in terms of

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Speaker 2: their physical capabilities, you know, these are not decrepit individuals.

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Speaker 2: They probably are fairly robust from the decades of working

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Speaker 2: on a farm, probably much more so than the average

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Speaker 2: fifty something today. And then when you take a look

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Speaker 2: at if we're looking at is Margaret physically capable of

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Speaker 2: killing John, particularly under this set of circumstances. John's asleep,

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Speaker 2: he is, I mean, he is completely helpless in being asleep.

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Speaker 2: Margaret most certainly could swing an axe and kill him.

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Speaker 2: I don't don't have any qualms about that at all.

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Speaker 2: It's did she.

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Speaker 1: And the axe is the big concern because Doctor Dean

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Speaker 1: thinks these look like axe wounds to him. But they

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Speaker 1: need to find that weapon. So here comes more eighteen

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Speaker 1: hundreds forensics, and you can tell me what you think

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Speaker 1: about this. They search, finally they think they found it,

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Speaker 1: the family's axe. So stranger with an axe. You have

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Speaker 1: told me before that strangers sometimes use weapons that are

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Speaker 1: found on the property, not bringing anything with them. The

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Speaker 1: family's axe was discovered tossed underneath the farm's granary. Do

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Speaker 1: you know what that is? I know that's a new

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Speaker 1: term I throw at you all the time.

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Speaker 2: I I have no idea. Is this something during the

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Speaker 2: Gilded Age?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: Okay, this is.

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Speaker 1: Where you store and store a grain. And I actually

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Speaker 1: have heard that. I mean I grew up on a farm,

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Speaker 1: so I've heard that before. But this is a building

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Speaker 1: where they would have stored grain. So they find that

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Speaker 1: an axe tossed underneath it. Which is unusual because the

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Speaker 1: last known resting place of this axe was actually inside

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Speaker 1: that building. So the family says the axe was always

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Speaker 1: in the building, and now somebody has taken it, used it,

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Speaker 1: and they know that they used it because there is

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Speaker 1: some wet blood on it and a few hairs, and

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Speaker 1: you know, hairs would not have been useful necessarily in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. I don't even think they would have.

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Speaker 1: There was no microscopes to be able to put under

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Speaker 1: at that point. They would just eyeball it and say,

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Speaker 1: this person's hair. So they find an axe, it's bloody,

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Speaker 1: there are hairs on it, but people have handled it,

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Speaker 1: so it's contaminated.

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Speaker 3: Well yeah, you know, and this even today, you know,

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Speaker 3: I get into debates discussions with various forensic scientists because

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Speaker 3: what you run into is like, oh, well, here's in

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Speaker 3: this particular case of murder weapon, but it's contaminated because

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Speaker 3: other people have handled it, so we're not going to

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Speaker 3: examine it.

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Speaker 2: Just because it's contaminated doesn't mean there isn't still probative

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Speaker 2: evidence present that can be recovered. In this day and age.

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Speaker 2: Of course, you may find, you know, witnesses DNA on

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Speaker 2: the ax, maybe doctor Dean found the axe and picked

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Speaker 2: it up. You know, it's handed to somebody who handles it.

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Speaker 2: We deal with this all the time. But the killers DNA,

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Speaker 2: the killers Layton Prince could still be on that axe,

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Speaker 2: and so that it's still important and critical to process

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Speaker 2: it when we're talking modern day from this era. You know,

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Speaker 2: obviously they can't do that type of testing, but the

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Speaker 2: presence of blood and hair is significant. You know. Of

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Speaker 2: course they wouldn't be able to do any type of

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Speaker 2: species testing on the blood in the nineteen hundreds. The hair,

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Speaker 2: you know, of course, I would be does it visually

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Speaker 2: look like human hair? This is significant because we have

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Speaker 2: a homicide victim who has been who has received blows

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Speaker 2: on the head causing bleeding injuries, and typically bludgeting weapons

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Speaker 2: often will have hair that gets stuck to them. The

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Speaker 2: hair sometimes is crushed and then the crushed ends are present.

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Speaker 2: We can look at them under the microscope, you know,

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Speaker 2: but just typically when somebody's bludging the head, the murder

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Speaker 2: weapon often has a combination of blood and hair and

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Speaker 2: potentially brain matter, which I would suspect would also be

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Speaker 2: present on this axe, considering the extent of John's injuries.

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Speaker 2: But they're not necessarily looking forward that back in nineteen hundred,

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Speaker 2: but it is if they're visually saying that looks like

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Speaker 2: human hair, I think it's like, yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: This is probably the murder weapon.

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Speaker 1: Well, we have differing opinions here. One is a family

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Speaker 1: friend named Frank Keller, who looks at this and says,

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Speaker 1: there you see one of poor John's old gray hairs.

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Speaker 1: But Will, who is one of the children who was

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Speaker 1: in the house, says something different. Of course, if we

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Speaker 1: are thinking that this happened within the family, Will, in

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Speaker 1: the picture I showed you from eighteen ninety two, looks

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Speaker 1: to me to be probably eight to ten, maybe younger.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it could be six, but that was

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Speaker 1: eight years earlier. Will is probably a young teenager, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen,

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Speaker 1: maybe even seventeen. He says, well, hang on a second,

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Speaker 1: that could have been from the Thanksgiving turkey that we

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Speaker 1: had slaughtered just a couple of days before. That's where

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Speaker 1: the blood and the little bits of hair came from.

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Speaker 1: Do turkeys have gray hair? And do we believe this?

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Speaker 2: Well, we're dealing with lay people, non forensically trained, you know,

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Speaker 2: so I'm not sure that I could put any weight

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Speaker 2: on either person's assessment. But for somebody like myself, I

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Speaker 2: would be able to very easily differentiate human head hair

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Speaker 2: from anything that came from a turkey without even needing

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Speaker 2: to put it under a microscope. You know, it would

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Speaker 2: be that obvious. What was the name of the first

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Speaker 2: person who said to gray hair.

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Speaker 1: Frank Keller, who's just a family friend. Nobody with any

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Speaker 1: authority is making a comment on this. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: sheriff collect I was impressed. The sheriff did collect the evidence.

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Speaker 1: He said, you know, there is blood on the handle,

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Speaker 1: a few strands of what appears to be hair on

357
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Speaker 1: the axe's blade. He takes the hair, puts it in

358
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Speaker 1: his pocket. Not the most sanitary thing in the world,

359
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,640
Speaker 1: but at least he tried, and he wrapped up the

360
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Speaker 1: axe in newspaper and gave it to the deputy for

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Speaker 1: safe keeping. This was before fingerprinting. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what he was thinking would happen, but he at

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Speaker 1: least tried. This was as sophisticated as they would have gotten. Here.

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Speaker 1: The sheriff is trying at least.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, you know, and as I'm thinking about this,

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Speaker 2: you know, also part of assessing the axe. Is the

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Speaker 2: amount of blood staining, the type of blood patterns present

368
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Speaker 2: consistent with the injuries to John, or is it more

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Speaker 2: consistent with maybe, you know, the slaughtering of a turkey.

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Speaker 2: You know, but what do you do with an axe

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Speaker 2: to slaughter a turkey? You cut its head off? I

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Speaker 2: mean it's a very minimal use of the acts, you know.

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Speaker 2: So it's I have a hard time believing that anybody

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Speaker 2: would be confused with the blood and hair on the

375
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Speaker 2: axe as being something that had been used at Thanksgiving

376
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Speaker 2: on the turkey.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Will's theory for whatever we think of that.

378
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Speaker 1: He was trying to give an explanation. We don't know

379
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Speaker 1: why yet. We do know that the sheriff reports there,

380
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Speaker 1: his deputy comes there, the county attorney, who which I

381
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Speaker 1: will just call the prosecutor da, I mean that's what

382
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,159
Speaker 1: they would have called him. Then the county attorney, George

383
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 1: Clamer came. Everybody showed up to this farm because this

384
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Speaker 1: was going to be a big deal. It was a

385
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Speaker 1: big deal. Let me tell you about the blood and

386
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,880
Speaker 1: then I'm going to show you a map. You'll probably

387
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: be pretty pleased with here. And now you'll have to

388
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 1: put this together, so I can show you a map

389
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: that shows the building where the grain was stored, where

390
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 1: the axe should have been, and underneath it was found

391
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Speaker 1: was this axe and the path that if this is

392
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Speaker 1: a stranger, the person would have taken that night with

393
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Speaker 1: the axe in hand and then maybe left also with

394
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Speaker 1: So let me first tell you before I show you

395
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Speaker 1: the map where the blood is, because I know this

396
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 1: is interesting. The sheriff looks all over the place, the

397
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: building where the grain is stored, on the porch, the bedrooms, everywhere.

398
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Speaker 1: There are a few drops of blood on the front

399
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Speaker 1: steps of the Hussicks home, and that is it. On

400
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 1: the outside of the house, a couple of drops on

401
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 1: the front steps. He goes in and there's blood all

402
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 1: over the bed where John was and that is basically it.

403
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: There is a minimal amount of blood, he says, both

404
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: on the axe. It is not dripping with blood. There's

405
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 1: blood on it. So maybe that comes back to our

406
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: Turkey theory. But there is not a ton of blood,

407
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: just a couple of drops on the ax, just a

408
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: couple of drops on the front porch, and that is it.

409
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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, that's what I would expect. So based on

410
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 2: the description of John's injuries. He has one incisive blow.

411
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Speaker 2: I'm going to assume that that was probably the first blow,

412
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: and then he has the crushing blow, probably from the

413
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 2: back of the axe. Now, if there's only the two blows,

414
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 2: this initial blow with the blade of the axe, there

415
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 2: isn't a pooled blood source, So this is the initial

416
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: injury that could potentially cause some blood to start to pool.

417
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 2: And this is this becomes critical in terms of interpreting

418
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 2: how much blood is going to be on this axe.

419
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 2: Now this the back part of the axe struck exactly

420
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 2: where now this blood has pooled, there'd be some blood

421
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 2: that would be present on the head of the axe

422
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,959
Speaker 2: or wherever part of the acts struck in this location.

423
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: But it sounds potentially like you have the incisive injury

424
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:21,199
Speaker 2: and then above that incisive injury on a distinct area

425
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 2: of the head, separate from this initial blow is where

426
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 2: now you have the crushing blow. So now it's striking

427
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 2: in an area of the head where there may or

428
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: may not be a pooled blood source. And if this

429
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 2: is a fairly rapid these blows are in fairly rapid succession,

430
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: which is what I would suspect, is that likely there

431
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,479
Speaker 2: is probably very little blood where the axe hit the

432
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,239
Speaker 2: head that causes crushing injury. So the only blood in

433
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,479
Speaker 2: that scenario that I would expect to be on the

434
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 2: axe would be just from that very brief interaction of

435
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 2: that second blow. If the axe had been used repeatedly

436
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 2: after that, that's when you start to see a lot

437
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 2: of blood being transferred to the murder weapon and then

438
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,479
Speaker 2: cast off as subsequent blows are being done. But if

439
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 2: you just have these two blows and two distinct areas

440
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: on John's head, just because the second blow does seem

441
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 2: to crush in his skull and there's brain matter that's

442
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: coming out, and it's obviously going to be a significant

443
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 2: bleeding injury, there's going to be some transfer of blood,

444
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 2: but not significant. The drops of blood outside the house, well,

445
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: the axe after striking John in the bedroom, that's when

446
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 2: the axe is going to have the most blood on it.

447
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 2: So how come there isn't a dripped blood trail leading

448
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 2: out to the front of the house. Is the offender

449
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: holding the axe in a way like putting it in

450
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 2: his or her shirt or something which is preventing blood

451
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 2: from dripping, or are these blood drops unrelated? You know,

452
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 2: it's that's always a possibility, but that's all part of

453
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: the assessment. But I would not suspect the acts to

454
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: be completely coated in blood as a result of this scenario,

455
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: nor a whole bunch of blood spatter inside this room,

456
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 2: nor a heavy blood trail leading out of the bedroom.

457
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: This set of circumstances does not lead me to believe

458
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: this is a real bloody scene outside of the pooled

459
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 2: blood underneath John as his head wound is bleeding out.

460
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I'm often annoyed by the maps that

461
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: we are given of these crime scenes, and this is

462
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: obviously a modern map I'm about to show you, but

463
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 1: it seems very clear, and I think it's going to

464
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: be very helpful. So let me show you the map

465
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: of where everything happened, and you need to notice their

466
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: little key down below. The dots are where there were

467
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: blood spots. The asterisk is where John was laying, which

468
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: is right next to a wall, and then you've got

469
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: the pathway that the killer probably took from the bedroom

470
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: back to the building where the grain was stored, and

471
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: then the exes where the grain was stored. This just

472
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: strikes me as a very kind of complicated pathway, and

473
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: then also maybe somebody really needed to know where John was,

474
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: they'd have to be kind of familiar with the house,

475
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: I think, don't you think? Or what do you think?

476
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 2: Well, if everybody's asleep, then they can take their time

477
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 2: and kind of do a building search to find, you know,

478
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: where John's at, because we don't know that you know, this,

479
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: this map and the where these bloodstains are found doesn't

480
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: indicate anything about the offender's approach. And if we assume

481
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: that the blood stains that are on the floor as

482
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: depicted in this diagram, or a result of the offender escaping,

483
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 2: then that gives us some some ideas. After the homicide,

484
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: or after I should say, the you know, the the

485
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: violence was inflicted on John, you know where the offender went. Now,

486
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: one of the things that I want to caution on is,

487
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: you know, John stays alive for a significant period of time.

488
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 2: His wounds are being attended to, You have a physician

489
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 2: that is interacting with him. This physician is possibly getting

490
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 2: blood on him. I don't know if John is moved

491
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: at all through the house or when he dies, you

492
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 2: know how he's taken transported out of the house. But

493
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 2: oftentimes what we have to take into consideration is some

494
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: of these blood stains on the floor are due to

495
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 2: the after crime dynamics that occur. We often will have

496
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: let's say a body transported. You know, it's paramedics come in,

497
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: put a body on a gurdy and take the will

498
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: the gurdy out of the house to put in the ambulance. Well,

499
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 2: there's blood dripping off the gurney and creating a blood trail.

500
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with the offender having an

501
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: axe and having blood drip off the axe. So that's,

502
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: you know, part of my assessment and looking at this

503
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: case would be okay. So they're noting blood stains on

504
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: the floor at what point in the process where those

505
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: first notice? Was it upon the initial first responder's entry,

506
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: or is it after ten hours and John's been bleeding

507
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: and sitting up and being moved around the house and

508
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: everybody's coming and going. And I'd say, I can't even

509
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 2: attribute to these bloodstains on the floor to the offender

510
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: movements because it could be from something else. It's, in essence,

511
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: a form of crime scene contamination.

512
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: So does this tell you anything else? It doesn't tell

513
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: you about whether or not the person had to be

514
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,239
Speaker 1: familiar with the layout, because you said, you know, if

515
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: everyone's asleep, it's midnight, and it's really you know, young

516
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: teenagers and little kids. At this point, the guy could

517
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: wander around essentially, it still seems like you'd have to

518
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: have an idea about where to go. Are they upstairs?

519
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: Are they downstairs? It seems like they're on the first floor.

520
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 2: Though, right there's nothing about this that tells me the

521
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: offender had knowledge of the layout of the house. I

522
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: still think the offender target to John, probably most critically

523
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: is you know, if this axe was out here in

524
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: this granary initially, then we know the offender at least

525
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: went to the granary, grabbed the axe, then went into

526
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 2: the house, target to John, and then upon escape, discarded

527
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: the acts underneath the granary. The location where the axe

528
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 2: was discarded. Was this something that was in plane view

529
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: on the logical flight path that the offender would take,

530
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: or did the offender have to go out of their

531
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 2: way to find this hiding spot, and then why did

532
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: the offender do that? If the hiding spot is truly

533
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: sort of hidden where the offender is taking sort of

534
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: a weird route in order to find it, then that

535
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: might indicate that the offender had pre existing knowledge of

536
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: this hiding spot and may have greater familiarity with this location,

537
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: such as a family member versus a stranger boogeyman that's

538
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: just wandering around, stumbles across the axe and goes in

539
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: and kills John.

540
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: You're really pushing your luck by asking for photos. You

541
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: it jinks us, But I understand. I mean, I think

542
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: it's amazing that we even get maps in this day

543
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: and age. That's a good little map, at least to

544
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: know the layout. Let's talk about the sheriff's suspicions. He

545
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: of course asks around. Shep is alarming to him that

546
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: Shep was either doped up or Shep didn't bark. Of course,

547
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: they're looking at the family and he starts asking around,

548
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: and he finds out that they had a really difficult

549
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: relationship Margaret and John did. Neighbors said that Margaret had

550
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: confided in them about the problems that they had, that

551
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: John was abusive towards her and the kids. To me,

552
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: I will say that would have been highly unusual for

553
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: a woman to disclose that to neighbors, So this must

554
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: have been bad. Along the lines of I want to

555
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: get a divorce bad in the late eighteen hundreds early

556
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, the abuse just wouldn't have been talked about,

557
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: So he must have been really a tyrant.

558
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: I think, well, you know, in part of this, you know,

559
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: when you see this type of abuse, you know, with

560
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: the child abuse as well as the you know, domestic

561
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: violence on Margaret. You know, do these family members or

562
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: other witnesses have they seen bruises, cuts, you know, on

563
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: family members of John. You know, over the course of time,

564
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: that helps substantiate the level of abuse. You know, this

565
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: is what we will see, you know today, and oftentimes,

566
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: you know, a parent will bring a child into the

567
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: hospital saying they fell, you know, and they've got some injuries,

568
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: and then upon X ray they've got all sorts of

569
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: old healing x rays you know, to their skeleton as

570
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: a result of just chronic abuse nineteen hundred. Of course

571
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: we don't have that type of medical history. But what

572
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: stands out to me with what Margaret is saying to

573
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 2: her friends. It's one thing for Margaret to be the

574
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: target of abuse, but when it's her kids, you know,

575
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: this is this is where that's where I start going. Okay,

576
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: you know, Mama Bear is going to come out at

577
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: some point, Margaret, maybe somebody, and we see that time

578
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: and time again, that is going to absorb the abuse

579
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: over time. But when now her kids are being abused

580
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: and she's concerned about their safety and their lifestyle, she

581
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: may decide enough is enough.

582
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: And remember the neighbors had said, yes, we've had to

583
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: break up domestic violence incidences at that house, so they've

584
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: seen things. I don't have details on injuries or anything

585
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: like that, but it is pretty well known. It's documented.

586
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: She's not making this up, that this is happening. So

587
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: this is what Frank Keller, he's the one who said,

588
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: that's definitely John's hair on the axe. He said that

589
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: Margaret once said this. She said John had bundled up

590
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: his clothes and he was going to leave. That Margaret

591
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: said she wished to the Lord that he had done it.

592
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: There was no peace in this family, nor never would

593
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: be as long as he lived. And then and Frank said,

594
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: she bursted out with a kind of screaming and said,

595
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: why is it that the Lord don't remove him out

596
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: of the way, And of course he had not left,

597
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: He didn't leave, so that sounds definitely like a threat.

598
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 1: I mean, she is very publicly saying this man needs

599
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: to go. He is not a good person.

600
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I think you know, the set

601
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: of circumstances, the victimology, this appears that John likely was

602
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 2: killed by somebody within the family that had the physical

603
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: capability to do it. You know. Margaret Moll certainly could,

604
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: but the older children could as well. You know, So

605
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: as you're talking about this case, I'm kind of narrowing

606
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: this into this is more likely going to be a

607
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 2: result of the ongoing domestic violence inside the house than

608
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 2: maybe the political enemy or somebody from the outside. And

609
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: that's going to be kind of the focus of the

610
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: interview process by the early investigators in this case, at

611
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 2: least in my opinion.

612
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: Well, the county attorney is really focusing on Margaret for

613
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: a couple of reasons, and he's vocal about this. He says,

614
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: there is no way that woman is sleeping through an

615
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 1: axe attack on her husband. She is literally inches from him,

616
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: and he says that is just not the way that

617
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: she said this came out, and all of this played out,

618
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 1: that she woke up only when she heard these two

619
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: boards crashing together, and the fact that she didn't flip

620
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: over looked to see where John was to wake him

621
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: up and say, somebody's broken into this house. He does

622
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: not believe it. Now you have told me it is

623
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: absolutely possible for someone to sleep through and attack. And

624
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: remember we had the Nashville serial killer, two twins in

625
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: a bed. One was murdered right next to the other

626
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 1: one and the other one didn't hear a thing.

627
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I don't agree with that, attorney. I

628
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: think this is such a limited attack on John. You know,

629
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: two blows. The first blow probably didn't produce any type

630
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 2: of sound. The second crushing blow to the skull is

631
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: that cracking of the bone that Margaret is possibly hearing. Now,

632
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: if Margaret is a killer, she's organically experiencing this audio

633
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: sound of the axe striking in the back of John's head.

634
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 2: So she has this experience which she could weave into

635
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 2: this story of hearing two boards clap, or she truly

636
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: is just an innocent witness, if you will, that hears

637
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 2: the crushing blow to John's head and it sounds like

638
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 2: two boards clapping, but she doesn't see the offender, and

639
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,439
Speaker 2: it's like, where's she looking. I think the biggest thing

640
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 2: that the attorneys saying that I also am having a question,

641
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: is you would think that she would, after this experience,

642
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 2: be hey, John, you know something's going on inside the room,

643
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: you know, get the physical presence of the man up

644
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 2: and around to see are we safe or not? And

645
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: she doesn't do that. But it may be a result

646
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 2: of the relationship. She doesn't want to wake him up

647
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 2: because he's going to get mad at her and possibly

648
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: abuse her if he thinks that, oh, you just disrupted

649
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 2: my sleep, you know. So who knows. There's a lot

650
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 2: of dynamics going on. I mean, Margaret's in play as

651
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: the killer for sure.

652
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: Well, and to feed into that a little bit what

653
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: you just said about their relationship, the attorney says John

654
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: had a rifle in the corner of the bedroom. I

655
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: cannot believe she did not turn over and say, get up,

656
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: grab the rifle, go protect our family. It's just more

657
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: evidence in his mind that this was Margaret who did it.

658
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: I think that just refers back to when you said

659
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: that I just thought, oh, yeah, maybe she doesn't want

660
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: jo with a rifle pissed off at her for making

661
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: up some noise that didn't exist.

662
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: That is the complexity of this type of relationship, you know,

663
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 2: there's behaviors that Margaret's doing which on the surface may

664
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: seem suspicious, but at the same time, given the relationship

665
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: issues that she's in and possibly the fear for her

666
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: own physical safety, if she does, you know, wakes him up,

667
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: wakes John up, and John's upset with her. She knows

668
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 2: that she's going to be the subject of abuse, and

669
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: that could explain away her behavior. So it's hard to

670
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: assess with a lot of confidence. You know, these suspicious

671
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: behaviors by Margaret.

672
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: I think you always do this, Paul in our cases,

673
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: but I feel like, in particular, you're doing a great

674
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: job on this story, trying to play both sides. I

675
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 1: don't usually like the phrase devil's advocate, but you're going

676
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: back and forth on why you think this could be

677
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: Margaret as the offender and why we can also call

678
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 1: bs on this quote unquote suspicious behavior that the counting

679
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: prosecutor is bringing up. So I think that's great that

680
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: you're doing that.

681
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: Well. This is just you know, this is just from

682
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 2: experience looking at a wide variety of cases understanding human behavior,

683
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: and in my experience, people who are in these positions

684
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: of making decisions on whether investigators whether prosecutors or even

685
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 2: defense attorneys. They often put, in my opinion, way too

686
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 2: much weight on a set of circumstances without really considering, oh,

687
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,959
Speaker 2: there are other mitigating factors that may be the real

688
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 2: reason why somebody behaves a certain way or makes a

689
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: certain statement. It's just the reality. It's not black and white.

690
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: There's a lot of gray in real world human behavior.

691
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,479
Speaker 1: Well, tell me what you think about this. We hear

692
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: back from William Haynes, and now his wife Rinda wants

693
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: to give her input here on their relationship. William's the

694
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 1: neighbor who's there was a stranger on my front porch.

695
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: I wonder if this is the guy who did it.

696
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: But after some reflection he goes to the prosecutor and says, listen,

697
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: I have a story. Margaret came to him and said,

698
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: my husband's violent. Can you get together a group of

699
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: guys to come to the farm and scare the hell

700
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: out of John, beat him up, tell him to stop

701
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: hurting us. And William says, boy, did she want him dead?

702
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 1: He was potentially having affairs. There was abuse, And here's

703
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: the kicker for me, the pregnancy that we talked about before.

704
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: It sounds like John fancied one of Margaret's sisters and

705
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 1: wanted to marry her. But he ends up getting Margaret

706
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: pregnant and that's how he ends up being a father

707
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: to ten children. So there's a lot of mo that's

708
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 1: just a laundry list of things that this man has

709
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: screwed up.

710
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 2: It sounds like with Margaret approaching William the neighbor and

711
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 2: seeking to have a group of guys basically inflict violence

712
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: on John to scare him. Okay, now this opens up

713
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 2: a suspect pool from my perspective, an unexpected suspect pool,

714
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: where now is there somebody within Margaret's social circles that

715
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 2: would be willing to do this for her or do

716
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 2: this for some level of compensation or some form of compensation,

717
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 2: you know, in essence, she's hiring a hit man, right,

718
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: kind of in this modern day parlance, you know. But

719
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 2: back then it's like, okay, so is there somebody that

720
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: Margaret reached out to that came in and did this.

721
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 2: That's something that the sheriff is going to have to

722
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 2: march down on.

723
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,439
Speaker 1: Well, I need you to tell me if this next

724
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: thing is an actual thing. There are witnesses, So this

725
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: is a corner's inquest. At this point, there are witnesses,

726
00:41:55,080 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: including a physician, who believe that the attacker was likely

727
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: left handed. The one who held this axe, Margaret is

728
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: right handed. Do you believe that?

729
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: No?

730
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: I figured not? Okay? Good?

731
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: You know so? Well, Now, let let's say there were

732
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: many blows and I talked about this. You know, then

733
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 2: now you have subsequent blows, pooled blood source, a lot

734
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: of blood getting onto the head of the axe. When

735
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: that axe is being brought up to strike again, you

736
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 2: have cast off patterns. With multiple cast off patterns, you

737
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 2: might be able to see generally the the the arc

738
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 2: and directionality of the swing of the axe by the offender.

739
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 2: Now typically right versus left handed individuals. You know, they

740
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 2: go to their dominant side in terms of the way

741
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 2: that they swing the axe, but it doesn't mean that

742
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 2: they are locked into doing that. You know, when I

743
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 2: when I've used an axe, when I use a sledge hammer,

744
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: you know, for around the house projects, I will often

745
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: change the directionality of my swing based on what I

746
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 2: need to accomplish. And that is also what offenders do

747
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: when they commit homicides with these types of weapons. So

748
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: there is no way somebody can draw a conclusion as

749
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: to the handedness of the offender. They can just say, well,

750
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 2: the offender seemed to swing multiple times in this directionality,

751
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that that's a right handed person

752
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: versus a left handed person, because no matter what your

753
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: handedness is, you can swing an axe in either way.

754
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 1: Okay, Margaret's still in play, I think, is what you

755
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: were saying there, So that does not matter. Yeah, now,

756
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: to me, this is the most compelling physical evidence. Tell

757
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 1: me what you think about this. Margaret is wearing a

758
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: nightgown when this attack happens, and there are witnesses, including

759
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: doctor Dean and two male community members, which is important.

760
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: I suppose to know what their sex is. They come

761
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: to the crime scene, they look at Margaret's nightgown. There

762
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: are bloodstains on the right sleeve and on the back

763
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: of the nightgown. Nothing on the front, not one bit

764
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: of blood that they can see on the front. So

765
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: what do you think about that? Because the idea is

766
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: that perhaps she was there, but she was not the

767
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: one who swung the axe. She had her back turned,

768
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 1: or she was on her stomach. I mean, I don't know, you.

769
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 2: Know, Oh, I need so much more information in order

770
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:28,439
Speaker 2: to because you know part of you know, Okay, so yeah,

771
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: assessing assessing these these blood stains. Of course, you know,

772
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 2: we'd have to show Okay, these blood stains, they look

773
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: like they're fresh blood stains that they're from John versus

774
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: you know, Margaret had a bleeding injury from some prior

775
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 2: thing that she was involved with. But it's also okay,

776
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 2: the location on the sleeve and on the back, Okay,

777
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: what what do these blood stains look like? Are they

778
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 2: contact transfers? Are they drops? As I mentioned before, this

779
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 2: axe is not going to have a lot of blood

780
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: on it, you know, So this is something where I

781
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 2: would not suspect that, you know, if she's swinging the

782
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 2: axe up overhead, that there's going to be some drops

783
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,760
Speaker 2: of blood dripping down onto the back of her nightgown.

784
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 2: I just don't think that that's this set of circumstances.

785
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: But I would need to see what is present on

786
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 2: her I need to account for all of her activities.

787
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,839
Speaker 2: After John has a bleeding injury. You know, it's not

788
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 2: unusual for a loved one to go up and either

789
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 2: do a medical resuscitation or or hug they're bleeding loved

790
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,959
Speaker 2: one and getting blood transferred onto them.

791
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's wrapping his head, she's using cloths on his head,

792
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: She's doing all kinds of stuff.

793
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Or you have the physician who's attending John and

794
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: then he goes up and consoles Margaret, and he's got

795
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 2: blood on him and transfers that blood to Margaret. You know,

796
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 2: all of this is part of the complexity of Okay,

797
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 2: when are these blood stains being observed? What has happened

798
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 2: between the time of the bleeding injury to the time

799
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 2: that these bloodstains are being observed. Can I eliminate with

800
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 2: confidence all the other spurious reasons for these bloodstains to

801
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 2: say these bloodstains are entirely consistent with the killer. I

802
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: would be much more concerned if I saw a little

803
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: bit of blood spatter, some hairs on Margaret, some brain

804
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 2: matter that has, you know, spattered up onto Margaret. That

805
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 2: becomes important. A few blood stains on her nightgown right now,

806
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 2: it doesn't tell me anything.

807
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: Now, let me ask you, based on the head wounds

808
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,760
Speaker 1: that you've heard about, based on what we think happened,

809
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: would you expect the person holding the axe and doing

810
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: this with force? Would you expect if it were Margaret

811
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: that she would have some kind of blood on this

812
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: nightgown because they didn't find anything except on that sleeve

813
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: and on the back. Wouldn't she have something?

814
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 2: Paul, No, you know again this is this is going

815
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 2: back and really assessing what's going on. This is there's

816
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: two blows. First blow, there's no blood on John. It's

817
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 2: with the sharp edge of the axe. There's really not

818
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 2: going to be any possibility of blood spatter from that.

819
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: Now you have a bleeding injury with a second blow,

820
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 2: could there be some blood spatter? Possibly, it would be minimal.

821
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 2: This is where I'd be looking at the bed sheets,

822
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: at the pillow. Am I seeing emanating? You know, blood

823
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: spatter patterns coming from this injury? But the axe with

824
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: a long handle allows the offender to be a distance away.

825
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 2: Plus the broad head of the axe is a shadow

826
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 2: has a shadowing effect. It's just like a baseball bat.

827
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 2: The blood can't come directly back at the person who's

828
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 2: wielding the weapon. It's going to go out to the

829
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 2: sides and possibly underneath the handle. But with the limited

830
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 2: amount of blows to John, I am not expecting this

831
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 2: to be a blood spatter scene at all. So in

832
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 2: my opinion, I would not expect the killer to have

833
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 2: any type of spatter blood spatter onto their person, and

834
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 2: if they did, it would be minimal and it'd probably

835
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: be easily overlooked. We're talking a few tiny droplets that

836
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: would have made it back onto the killer.

837
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: Well, let me shorthand what happens here. What you're saying

838
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: is what the jury is confused by. At every turn,

839
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: the only thing that the coroner's inquest the jury said was, yes,

840
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: we do think that John died by two X blows,

841
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 1: but we have no idea who did it. We do

842
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 1: not know if it was Margaret. So they do not

843
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: recommend that Klamer, who is the county prosecutor, he wanted

844
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: to go after first degree murder chargers, and they said,

845
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: we don't think that's a great idea. He disagreed. He

846
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: goes after her anyway. He convinces the local magistrate to

847
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: issue an arrest warrant for Margaret. She's taken into custody

848
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: right after his funeral, and in April of nineteen oh one,

849
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 1: so this is five months after he is more, her

850
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: trial begins. There are five days of testimony, which is

851
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 1: a pretty decent link for her trial in that time period.

852
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: She says the same thing over and over again. I

853
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: did not do this. I have no idea what happened.

854
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: All of the kids, all nine of them, say, we agree,

855
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: we don't have any idea what happened. The defense attorney says,

856
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: you cannot prove that blood on the axe and that

857
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: hair on the axe is not turkey blood. You cannot

858
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: say definitively that it was John. Margaret and her children

859
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: say things were bad, but they were not that bad.

860
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: Mom does not want to kill dad, and that is

861
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: the defense. So, you know, we have to fight the

862
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 1: perception that women, even country women, are incapable of killing

863
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: a man. The prosecutor said, hell, yeah, she could do it.

864
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 1: She is a farm girl. She could pick up an

865
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: axe and whack this guy. She was very strong. He

866
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 1: described her as stalky and heartily built. That she had

867
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: been seen using a wood splitting axe with no problem.

868
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: And you know, this is all sort of building up

869
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: to the idea that she was abused. She was pissed off.

870
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: She had said she was pissed off to multiple people,

871
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: and now she was also humiliated because it comes out

872
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: that they were pregnant before they got married, and just

873
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 1: all of this John was miserable from the beginning, and

874
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 1: that's what the prosecutor is saying. So that is the

875
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: you know, the whole crux of the case. He doesn't

876
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: have physical evidence, but he is saying circumstantially, this woman

877
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 1: did it. Who else would have done it?

878
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I lean towards Margaret being the one responsible.

879
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: I think I definitely disagree with some of the facts,

880
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 2: if you want to call him facts that the prosecutor

881
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: is using to lay out a circumstantial case. The most

882
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 2: compelling thing, as I assess this is, is William saying

883
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 2: Margaret approached him to try to round up a group

884
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 2: of men in essence to inflict violence on John to

885
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 2: get John to stop abusing her. William, I imagine, doesn't

886
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 2: have any grudge against Margaret. You know, I'd want to

887
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 2: know what that relationship is. If he sees Margaret as

888
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 2: a friend or a good neighbor, he has no reason

889
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 2: to make something up. So that informs me, Okay, Margaret

890
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 2: is looking at somehow getting John to stop this abusive behavior,

891
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: and she's willing to have John be beat up, you know,

892
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 2: by you know, a group of men in order to

893
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 2: do that. So this this informs me that, you know,

894
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 2: her capacity for accepting John suffering is there, you know,

895
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 2: and and and rightfully so, because he's abusing her. But

896
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 2: I don't think with with their limitations back in nineteen

897
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 2: hundred to look at the physical evidence, you know, is

898
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,240
Speaker 2: you know, the acts of murder weapon. Are we able

899
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 2: to you know, demonstrate that it it truly is a

900
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: murder weapon? Are we able to demonstrate that. Let's say

901
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 2: there's a bloody ridge detail in John's blood, to show that, okay,

902
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,720
Speaker 2: the person who left that you know, got John's blood

903
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 2: on there as a result of the homicide, and it

904
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: happens to match Margaret, that would be compelling. They don't

905
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 2: have that, you know. The I think that circumstantially the

906
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 2: case just does not add up in my mind to

907
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 2: be able to take it forward at trial. I think

908
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,359
Speaker 2: there needs to be more investigation done, But I think

909
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 2: the sheriff and the prosecutor are on the right track.

910
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 2: They just don't have enough to prove the case in

911
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 2: my opinion.

912
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,479
Speaker 1: Well, the neighbor, William Haynes, who we talked about, who

913
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 1: says first there was a stranger on the porch, and

914
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 1: then he says, well, by the way, you know, Margaret

915
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: said she wanted a bunch of men to go beat

916
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: this guy up. It's supposed to testify at this trial,

917
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 1: and it would be you know, on the side of

918
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: the prosecution to talk about her anger. He has. It

919
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: sounds like a nervous breakdown, and he's actually admitted to

920
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: a mental health facility before the trial, so he can't testify.

921
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 1: It does not matter because she is convicted by a

922
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,760
Speaker 1: panel of all men, and she is given life in prison.

923
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: At least it wasn't the death penalty, which is what

924
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 1: the prosecutor wanted. But she is convicted. So what do

925
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: you think about that? You just basically said what you thought,

926
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: which is this is not enough evidence to put this

927
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: on a woman on trial right now.

928
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 2: You know, that's the hard thing is I think they

929
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 2: have the right person. I don't say that with total confidence.

930
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 2: You know, again, could it have been one of her

931
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 2: older children? Could it have been Maybe this stranger was

932
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 2: the hired hit man, right, and maybe William had a

933
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 2: greater in terms of helping arrange somebody to go in

934
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 2: to kill John than what he's admitting to, which may

935
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 2: be a reason for his mental breakdown. But you know,

936
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 2: part as we kind of talked about at the beginning

937
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 2: of the first episode. This is such a hard thing. Yes,

938
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 2: I think Margaret is likely the one responsible, either directly

939
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 2: or indirectly through having somebody come and do this, whether

940
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 2: it be one of her older children or somebody from

941
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,879
Speaker 2: the outside. But she's doing it in essence to save

942
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 2: herself and save her family, you know. And how do

943
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 2: you put somebody away for life for that. This is

944
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 2: the complexity that prosecutors are. John's asleep, he is helpless,

945
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 2: and to have somebody come and hit him on the

946
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,240
Speaker 2: head with an axe, Well, this is an egregious act

947
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 2: of violence that takes somebody's life. You can't allow that

948
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 2: type of behavior in our society. But if somebody is

949
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 2: feeling trapped and thinking I'm either going to die or

950
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 2: my kids are going to die, how do you hold

951
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:02,240
Speaker 2: it against them from taking that type of act because

952
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 2: authorities aren't doing enough to keep them safe.

953
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 1: Well, this is not the end of the story, of.

954
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 2: Course, it's not. You've been holding back again, I have.

955
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: So she's in prison for a year and then she

956
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 1: had an appeal. And there's a scholar named Patricia L.

957
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: Brian who followed this case. She says, the Iowa Supreme

958
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:29,439
Speaker 1: Court decided that she had been unfairly prejudiced by two

959
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: tiny little technical errors involving jury instruction, which trips up

960
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 1: a lot of judges. Surprisingly, there's a technical error there,

961
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:42,800
Speaker 1: and the case is overturned and she is released on bail,

962
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: and the prosecutor said, here we go again. Let's do

963
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: it again. So there's a second trial. William Haynes is

964
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: now out of the asylum. He gives testimony. But the

965
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 1: issue with William Haynes is that he gets on the

966
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: stand and he says, I lied about the strange you're

967
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 1: on the porch. So now he is quote unquote crazy

968
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 1: and he is a liar. And while at first I thought, well,

969
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: this is going to undermine her defense about a stranger,

970
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 1: I think what ends up happening is it undermines his

971
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 1: testimony when he says she told us to go beat

972
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: this guy up and told him essentially and that was it.

973
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: So this was supposed to be pretty good testimony and

974
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 1: it doesn't turn out to be good testimony for the

975
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 1: prosecution because this guy lied about something and he was institutionalized.

976
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 2: No sure, you know. And as I'm assessing William and

977
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 2: this lie of the stranger. Why is he lying about

978
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 2: the stranger because he's trying to protect Margaret. This informs

979
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: me that William, you know, looks at Margaret as a

980
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 2: as a good person, if you will you know, whatever,

981
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 2: if they have a friendship or whatever. But he is

982
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 2: in essence, he's aware Margaret is likely going to be

983
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 2: a suspect in this case. And now he is misdirecting

984
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 2: the investigation by saying, Hey, I have this stranger that

985
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 2: was on my porch in order for the investigators think, well,

986
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 2: that stranger must be the killer that had entered into

987
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 2: Margaret and John's house and killed John in his bed.

988
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,439
Speaker 2: So this gives greater veracity to William in my mind.

989
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 2: William's statement that Margaret approached him about, hey, I want

990
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 2: to have a group of men hr John, and this elevates,

991
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: in my opinion, in my assessment, Margaret's involvement in John's homicide.

992
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because the community does not think that.

993
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: The community looks at William, whose wife is divorcing him

994
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 1: at this point and charging him with cruelty. The community

995
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: looks at William and says, you lied about this stranger.

996
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: We're not sure what you if you're telling the truth

997
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: about her approaching him, about beating up John. You had

998
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: a breakdown before the first trial. Plus it seems like

999
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: you're a mean guy too. They think that he's involved

1000
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: somehow in this case, and it casts a big shadow

1001
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 1: over this second trial, which only benefits Margaret in this

1002
00:57:59,440 --> 00:57:59,959
Speaker 1: second trial.

1003
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 2: Well, sure, and I would not be surprised if William

1004
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:06,439
Speaker 2: had a role, whether he directly is. I mean, he's

1005
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 2: the killer. He's one that decided, Okay, I'm going to

1006
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 2: take John out for Margaret, or he does make the

1007
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 2: arrangement to have somebody go and take care of John

1008
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 2: per Margaret's request. But instead of well, we're just going

1009
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 2: to send John a message, it's like, well, we're just

1010
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 2: going to get rid of John.

1011
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: Now we're going to throw in another stranger. The defense

1012
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: digs up a witness, a guy named GK. Berson, who

1013
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: says he's a horseman charging past his farm from the

1014
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 1: west where the family is. And you know, this horseman

1015
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: is whipping his horse and the horse is frantically running,

1016
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: And of course the defense is insinuating that this could

1017
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: have been a stranger, maybe not William Haynes's stranger, but

1018
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 1: a stranger, this reasonable doubt, and the prosecutor response and says, well,

1019
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: this is probably just someone racing his horse at night,

1020
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: which I don't think is a great idea, but maybe

1021
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 1: this was a thing in nineteen hundred Iowa. But either way,

1022
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: this really puts some reasonable doubt in the minds of

1023
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: the jury, and things are going very differently. As you

1024
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: can tell, I'm framing this up to be a different outcome.

1025
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's again and I've said this over

1026
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 2: and over again. In any case, there's always these red herrings,

1027
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 2: and you know, you run across them during the investigator phase,

1028
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 2: and then once you kind of start proving a case

1029
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 2: against somebody, you drop pursuing these other, these other red herrings.

1030
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 2: But they're fodder for the defense, you know. And so

1031
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 2: now it's like, oh, you know, that was the real killer,

1032
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 2: the guy on the horse, this mystery man on the horse.

1033
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 2: But are they showing in nexus to the crime. No,

1034
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 2: just this is this is odd. You know, this is odd,

1035
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 2: And so now I'm going to direct the juror's attention

1036
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 2: to this mystery man. He's got to be the real killer,

1037
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 2: you know. And it's a ploy, you know, I think,

1038
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 2: you know, right now, I see where things are going

1039
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 2: in this retrial of Margaret, and I have a feeling

1040
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 2: that she gets off.

1041
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 1: She does. It's not an acquittal, but it is a

1042
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:11,439
Speaker 1: hung jury, and the prosecutor gives up and says, okay,

1043
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 1: we're not going to have a third trial. And according

1044
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 1: to the Iowa Cold Case website, Margaret never talks about it.

1045
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 1: She dies at the age of seventy, so this would

1046
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: have been, you know, thirteen, fourteen years later, and she's

1047
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 1: buried right next to John in the family plot. Wow,

1048
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 1: it is unsolved. There were no other suspects. They dropped

1049
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 1: the case, but it is still unsolved. And in this area,

1050
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: the rumors were maybe William Haynes, the liar, the crazy guy,

1051
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 1: maybe he was involved, or of course the most popular

1052
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: theory is that this was all in the family. Yeah,

1053
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 1: what a case.

1054
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 2: It's a tough one because I do think it's family,

1055
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 2: you know, just based on other cases that I'm aware

1056
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 2: of and the set of circumstances in this case. But

1057
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 2: at the same time, not necessarily upset that that Margaret

1058
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 2: didn't serve the rest of her life in prison, you know. Yeah,

1059
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 2: it's kind of it's one of those you get torn

1060
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 2: about what's going on here.

1061
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 1: I hope that this family went on and the kids

1062
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:20,439
Speaker 1: went on to live long, happy lives, terror free, free

1063
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 1: of domestic violence. And you know, I hope that Margaret,

1064
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: with all of this being true, people saying this stuff happened,

1065
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: he was not a good husband, not a good father.

1066
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 1: That I hope she was able to rest in peace

1067
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: with all of this, even if she was next to

1068
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 1: her scumbag of a husband. And I know that we've

1069
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,959
Speaker 1: talked about this. You have to solve cases. It doesn't

1070
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 1: matter who the victim is or who the killer is.

1071
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 1: They have to be solved. But I think you're right.

1072
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 1: This had the outcome that was supposed to happen. The

1073
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: prosecutor tried, he did his job. You know, who knows.

1074
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: This is law and justice. This is the way our

1075
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 1: system works.

1076
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 2: No for sure, you know. And this is you know,

1077
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 2: one of the few sets of circumstances where I ultimately

1078
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 2: have some capassion for the killer.

1079
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: Me too, Well, this case has been a big one doubleheader,

1080
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: So we need a week off. I need a week off.

1081
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: You can come back in a week, but I'm not

1082
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 1: going to be here, but I'll leave the.

1083
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 2: Camera on it's just going to be an empty mic.

1084
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 1: It'll be here, she'll do homework in here for you

1085
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 1: and you guys can have a chat. We'll have a

1086
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 1: week off and the audience will have a week off,

1087
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 1: and you know, we'll be back with another great case.

1088
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 1: I'm excited. I'm already thinking about it. We're gonna play

1089
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: Stump Pole Holes.

1090
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 2: It's a more Stump the dummy. Okay, I'm ready for you.

1091
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 1: All right, have a good break, you too. This has

1092
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production for our.

1093
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 2: Sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com

1094
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

1095
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1096
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, ali Elkin, Kate Winkler Dawson.

1097
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1098
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1099
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1100
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1101
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1102
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 1: Barry Bones pod.

1103
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1104
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote The

1105
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 2: Criminal Mind is available now, and

1106
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold

1107
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:31,479
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now.