1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,359 Speaker 1: you know. This is a compilation episode. So every episode 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 8 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. A welcome to It could 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: happen here, a show about things falling apart and also 10 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: putting things back together. Today we have an episode about 11 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: well it's this is This is kind of a big one, folks. 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: So everyone who listens to the show regularly will know that. 13 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,959 Speaker 1: There have been a rash of attacks by the far 14 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: right on drag Queen's Story hours and kind of similar 15 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: events to that. Events that are LGBT friendly, events that 16 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: also involved children have been regularly attacked all over the 17 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: United States. At the same time, there have been escalating 18 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: attacks by wingers, often the very same people, on reproductive 19 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: healthcare resources clinics that sort of thing. Um. This is 20 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: happening all over the country, but one place where things 21 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: have been particularly aggressive as of late is in New York, um, 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: New York City, and today we're going to be speaking 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: with a couple of different people who live in New 24 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: York who have been present at some of these actions 25 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: and who want to talk about what's been going on 26 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: with the far right and the attempts to defend these 27 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: people in these organizations from from right wing aggression. So 28 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: I want to introduce Talia now. Talia, you are known 29 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: to our audience. You've been on this show and some 30 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: of our other shows a couple of times in the past. 31 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Thanks for having me, and hello 32 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: to everyone who still remembers what I sound like. And 33 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: do you wanna you wanna drop your your your Twitter 34 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: and stuff up at the top here too, because you 35 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: do a lot of on the ground reporting at different 36 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: times and in this to young it's pretty simple. It's 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: Talia O t G as an on the ground UM 38 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: and yeah that's where I do my reporting on events, 39 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: analysis all that dumb ship. And then our other guests 40 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: are two New Yorker is sorry New York people, um, 41 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: who are both anti fascist activists who have been present 42 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: in the streets for a number of these recent events. 43 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: I'd like to introduce Tom and Barry. Do we want 44 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: to go around and do pronounced real quick? Here? Um, 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: I'm I'm he him, Yeah, sure, I'm she are they? 46 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: This is Tom, I'm here him and I'm she her. Awesome? 47 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: All right, Well that is so, I guess I'd like 48 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: to kind of start and and hand it over to 49 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: to Talia if she wants to give kind of an 50 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: overview of how all of this has has has gone down. 51 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: But basically we've seen. I mean, the thing that surprised 52 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: me most in the coverage that I have watched from 53 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: a distance is how aggressive and large some of the 54 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: right wing presence has been at like reproductive health clinics 55 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: in New York City. I was kind of surprised to 56 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,119 Speaker 1: see that in New York. Yes. So there's a group 57 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: in New York called NYC for Abortion Rights and they 58 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: host once monthly clinic defenses at the Planned Parenthood on 59 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: Bleaker in Lower Manhattan. UM. And they do that because 60 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: there is a church nearby the basilica of Old St. 61 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: Pat's that hosts a a coalition of anti abortion religious 62 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: zelic groups. They organized these large they're usually processions to 63 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: the Planned Parenthood where they pray outside they throw holy 64 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: water on the building. They attempt to hand out UM 65 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: propaganda and literature and intimidate people who are coming into 66 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: the clinic for necessary health services. UM. And these same 67 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: individuals have been seen attending anti vaxx rallies that the 68 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: man who leads the procession to the Planned Parenthood UM, 69 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: his name is Christopher Mansinski. He's also known as Fidelist. 70 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: And he has invaded clinics in White Plains, New York 71 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: in I think UM East Hempstead. UM. He has been 72 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: trying to revive Red Rose Rescue, which UM. People who 73 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: are familiar with the fight for reproductive rights are probably 74 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: aware that that is the primary group that invades clinics 75 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: and tries to harass patients. UM, threatens doctors and care 76 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: workers and all all sorts of things. That the main 77 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: people who lead Red Rose are either in jail or 78 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: have died thankfully. UM. And he's trying to revive that 79 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: here in New York. UM. And he has attended um 80 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: rallies organized by far right conspiracists anti vax conspiracists. UM. 81 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: And it's like, you know, he he went to d 82 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: C for the March for Life, and then he stuck 83 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: around for the my body, my choice, anti vax rallies. 84 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: It's it's very it's it's very contradictory. But we see 85 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: these same people because they're aligning on conservativism, on crystal fascism, 86 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: and we're seeing him pop up um insured spaces pretty 87 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: frequently in New York in ways that I think are 88 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: more transparent or like more easy to clock here, even 89 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: if there is like a larger density of them that 90 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: do mobilize to these specific things like clinic Crossman's Yeah, 91 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: that's um, that's a really interesting point. And that's also 92 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: what we've seen a lot in the Pacific Northwest. Um. 93 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: You know, we just had an attempt rally at a 94 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: drag Queen story our and Eugene and it was a 95 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: lot of the same old crowd who used to rally 96 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: in Portland before they got scared off of Portland. Now 97 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: I'm wondering kind of what how would you characterize the 98 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: response of the police to these events and how they 99 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: kind of have have have treated the right wing at 100 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: these well, it is about it's uh cliche as cliche comes, 101 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: because every single time, um, when I've covered clinic defenses specifically, 102 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: the police are helping move the procession along and threatening 103 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: clinic defenders with arrest on the basis that they're blocking 104 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: the roadway. Um. They are. They they essentially work as 105 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: like secondary of security. Um. Sometimes they will split off 106 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: from the other police and be like pushing and shoving 107 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: clinic defenders on their own in a way that doesn't 108 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: make any sort of strategic sense. But it's like they're 109 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: getting enjoyment from doing that. Um. It's it's the same 110 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: story over and over again. You know. We see it 111 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: in in San Diego when anti fascists were mobilizing against uh, 112 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: like Trump's supporters that were being very violent. The Trump 113 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: supporters were doing the violence, and it was the police 114 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: that were attacking the anti fascists trying to fight against 115 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: like trying to defend themselves against the far right. Um. 116 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: And we saw the same thing at Penn State just 117 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: the other night. The there was a gaggle of like 118 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: proud boys or or I think Tess Owen referred to 119 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: them as fascists in all black, who were macing the 120 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: crowd and they they you know, I didn't do anything. 121 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,679 Speaker 1: The police escorted there was an incident where a proud 122 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: boy was assaulting or like somehow there was a fight 123 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: that happened with a demonstrator and a proud boy, and 124 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,679 Speaker 1: the demonstrator the police threw the demonstrator on the ground 125 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: and then escorted the proud boy into the building where 126 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: Gavin mcinness and Alex Stein were supposed to put on 127 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: a very bad it didn't end up happening, lead him 128 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: back to his friends. Jesus Christ. Yeah, I asked that question, 129 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: and I know everybody like listening, and I know all 130 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: of you knew like what the answer was going to be. 131 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: I feel like you still have to like ask it. Um. 132 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: I am curious. The NYPD has a kind of manpower, 133 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: access to manpower, and access to surveillance equipment that, in 134 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: my experience out does most nations I've been in. And 135 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: I'm interested particularly and everyone's responses are welcome, but particularly 136 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: what what Tom and Barry might have to say about 137 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: what sort of roadblocks that provides towards organizing responses to 138 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: these events and kind of how activists have had to 139 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: adapt to that. Uh, this is Tom here. I mean, 140 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: I will say it's very clear that the NYPD constantly 141 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: monitors any sort of online space whatsoever, and I think 142 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: most people know to organize, you know, in person or 143 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: on signal with a small group of their friends, rather 144 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: than trying to get a larger group of people to 145 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: come to a thing publicly on the internet, because any 146 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: time that happens, it's like there's instantly you know, that 147 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: much larger of a police presency. Get dozens and dozens 148 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: of what's called the s RG, their Strategic Response group, 149 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: which I think probably can maybe speak on that a 150 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: little more, but they're basically the hats and bats that 151 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: come bust up protests. Yeah, definitely agree with that UM. 152 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: And I would also say that because of the sheer 153 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: volume of the vests that these exact same groups of 154 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: people who are now attacking UM drag story hours and clinics, 155 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: because we know this group already and they were having 156 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 1: on these daily anti bax rallies which objectively stopped kind 157 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: of being a thing to them, consider try to mobilize 158 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: accountable test for UM. So I think there is kind 159 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: of a large disconnect right now, which there by design 160 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: or accidentally where I think a lot of people feel 161 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: like UM, people who might attend account of protest that 162 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: is might feel like, oh no, it's just those same 163 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: idiots up to their nonsense again, you know that that's 164 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: we don't worry about that. But tell me if it's 165 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: the proud voice coming and we'll mobilized kind of protest. Um. So, 166 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 1: I honestly feel that it's sort of the mental kind 167 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: of the mental associations that we have with these familiar faces. Um. 168 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: I mean, despite the fact that it's been kind of 169 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: obviously Bond observed that the anti vax stuff is direct 170 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: pipeline and radicalization, um, platform for these more extremelyst Cristal 171 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: fascists and transford with actions, now people still can't really 172 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,479 Speaker 1: detach that, you know, this is actually serious now. So um, 173 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, I agree with what Tom said that it's 174 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: a matter of not dropping it. I'm sorry. I mean 175 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: that that gets to another kind of advantage these folks have, 176 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: which is because is of how much additional state repression 177 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: y'all are dealing with the kind of personal cost of 178 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: attending these events encountering the right is higher, both in 179 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: terms of potential risk and just kind of in terms 180 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: of the trauma incurred. I know from personal experience. I mean, 181 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: I haven't been out in the street in quite a while, 182 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: about a year at this point, and I know a 183 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: lot of other people who are in the same place, 184 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: because it just kind of you know, you can only 185 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: take so much as an individual. What are some ways 186 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: in which y'all is a community try to cope with 187 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: burnouts that you can continue to meet the pace at 188 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: which the right is doing this stuff. I mean, I 189 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 1: think it's really relying on other people, like the same 190 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: one two or three or four or five people can't 191 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: keep doing everything well, so as people start to get exhausted, 192 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: I think that it's time to you know, take a 193 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: step back, take a week off, take three weeks off, 194 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: like there have to be other people that are ready 195 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: to step up, um, you know, throughout your community, but 196 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: throughout everywhere. Yeah, and definitely I think there's going to 197 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: be more of a need to emphasize that this requires 198 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: every day and a fascists. I think in New York 199 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: City especially, we kind of fell into a traveler any 200 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: kind of public fall encounter. It was very I mean, 201 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: they looks into style and boarding, you know, very clear 202 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: that it's a cab there, black the water, things like that, 203 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: and the kinds of people that are just meaning members 204 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: that we actually do need to also show up and 205 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: saw the fascists that they're not welcoming their neighbors either, 206 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: they're not going to respond to something like that multitude 207 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: of reasons. And UH, what can you say about sort 208 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: of the numbers that you're seeing kind of on on 209 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: both sides on the ground here, what's like a normal 210 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: action looking like in terms of that? UM? I mean, 211 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: you know, just from reporting and keeping tabs on different 212 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: types of protests. In New York City, we have a 213 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: lot of UH nonprofits and more established type groups that 214 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: organize larger events UM, and those are typically just marches 215 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: for visibility and awareness UM. And when it comes to 216 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: a counter or some sort of direct action like mutual 217 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: Aid for example, UM, we see much smaller numbers. But 218 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: those numbers that I mean that I see at least 219 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: is that these are people who've built community and UM 220 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: communicate together. As opposed to seeing a flyer and showing 221 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: up just for that one day. These are people who 222 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: consistently are engaging with one another and with that space. So, 223 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: like I mentioned mutual Aid, we have UM Washington Square 224 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: Park mutually which meets every Friday, and the core group 225 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: that UM sets it up and distributes and everything is 226 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: relatively small. But the people who have shown up to 227 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: support in some capacity in the past two years that 228 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: it has been active. Um, they all know each other, 229 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: and that doesn't mean that, you know, they're like necessarily 230 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: like going to birthday parts together for um, you know, 231 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: donating kidneys to one another or something like that. It's 232 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: not necessarily like best friend groups. But it's people who 233 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: have built a sort of neighborhood in this ideology and 234 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: in this space in this time. I would also say 235 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: like these particular events have kind of brought in like 236 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: a different group of people. It's not like the same 237 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: cruise of people that we're doing other things, because there's 238 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: more kind of liberal people getting involved that are like 239 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: coming to these drag string court, drag queen story our 240 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: defenses to you know, be joyful and hold up signs 241 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: and saying and like welcome people into the library. So 242 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: that's also made it more easy to keep these going 243 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: because we've kind of got a larger revolving door of 244 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: people rather than you know, smaller groups. Yeah, that makes sense, 245 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: as like particularly is a way to not burn people out. 246 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: You know, I'm curious as to what have you seen 247 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: as far like one of the major tactics anti fascists 248 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: always uses identification UM and exposing people who are attending 249 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: these events rallying with fascist organizations. Have you noticed a 250 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: difference on how well this works for the people who 251 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: are showing up to protest like drag Queen story Our 252 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: events versus UM the people showing up at at reproductive 253 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: healthcare clinics, at planned parenthoods and such. Because it kind 254 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: of strikes me that one of those is more mainstream 255 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: maybe than the other. Although perhaps I'm being kind of 256 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: optimistic in that, but I'm wondering, does that does it 257 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: appear to be more effective against kind of one kind 258 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: of rally than it is in another kind, if that 259 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: makes any sense. So, a lot of the people who 260 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: are engaging in the clan carassments are known among their networks, 261 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: and because their goal is to present a sort of 262 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: legitimizing face for opposing abortion UM, they don't typically show 263 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: up to things that are a little bit more volatile. 264 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: But we have seen that with so it as it 265 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: happens that this the people who are harassing Drag story 266 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: Our for the most part, have been a part of 267 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: one specific core group of people that I've been monitoring 268 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: and reporting on for the past year, so I know 269 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: all of their names, which has pigeonholed them into what 270 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: they can and can't do. We had there's there's this 271 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: far right propagandist or in Levy. His brother was at ah. 272 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: He was trying to harass a drag story Hour at 273 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: the Andrew High Scale Library for the Blind and that 274 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: was an event put on for NEUROW divergent children and 275 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: he was attempting to harass that. He ended up pepper 276 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: spraying to people. And because he has known, his name 277 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: is out there, his face is known, and he is 278 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: identifiable across all social media networks. It was very easy 279 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: for those people to be able to file complaints against him. Um. Yeah. 280 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: And another thing too, is it because this one group 281 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: does all of these harassments together. They started out doing 282 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: anti vax stuff where they were going and harassing a 283 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: restaurant called Dame in Um I think it's in the 284 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 1: village or yeah, it's in the village. They were harassing 285 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: that restaurant for a while, and then they started harassing 286 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: the Health Commissioner's house and then Gracie Mansion, which is 287 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 1: where Eric Adams lives. And they were all doing these 288 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: things together. So their network was very easy to monitor 289 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: and trace UM, and so when they started harassing Drag 290 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: Story Hour, which was undeniably they were doing that as 291 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: a result of far right propaganda that was being pushed 292 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: into all of their social media spaces, trying to convince 293 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: them that Drag Story Hour is, you know, the Satan incarnate, 294 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: and they start showing up and trying to harass those 295 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: and immediately they're known. They tried to harass Um, they 296 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: tried to disrupt um aoc at a listening event she 297 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: was doing in Queens. Immediately they were known. It was 298 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: like I saw the footage and I was like, that's 299 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: Robert White, that's you know, Cliff Lee, that's our Ronan Levy. 300 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: And it's doing that because they're known. Because it's clear 301 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: that it's one group that's showing up and doing this, 302 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: trying to trying to follow the lead on what is 303 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: the trending outrage on the far right that week. It 304 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: limits the number of people who are interested in joining them, 305 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: because it's they rely on making it seem like they 306 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: are just neighbors and constituents who aren't happy with X, 307 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: y Z, and it's like, no, you're a coordinated group 308 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: of harassers. We know who you are, so that mask 309 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: being off definitely I think has helped to reduce the 310 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: willingness to grow in those harassments. But I can't necessarily 311 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: speak to the future on what would hold or like 312 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: what other people have been inspired by them, because we 313 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: have seen you not to show up in other states 314 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: to protest drag story. I were the same way that 315 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: these this little you know band harassers has been harassing 316 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: the story hours. Yeah, um yeah, sorry, just a direct 317 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: response to that that I definitely agree um that. Yeah. 318 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: We've been monitoring the movement of the main actors in 319 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: the anti backs movement for a while, but I did 320 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: want to say that it is occasionally other groups, but 321 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,959 Speaker 1: that they all have the same thing in common and 322 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: that they attached to the kind of hot topic issue 323 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: that they see happening in other cities and states. So 324 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: we did have actually like very like certainly Crystal cashis 325 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: group um uh TMP. I believe that it was called 326 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: whom you know had publicly next a rally to harass 327 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: the story. Our initially flashed onto that, um. But all 328 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: of it is kind of following national trends. Um. But 329 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: as they are initially trying to make see ur t 330 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: and schools be the thing that was a multitude of 331 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: different groups that are trying, and you know, they're looking 332 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: for something that sticks, and they're looking for something that 333 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 1: passers by any given passers by walking by will see 334 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,719 Speaker 1: their side of if they hear it. Um. But their 335 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: lack of success though, is because of their violence and 336 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: um not especially convincing and very human on sounding antics 337 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: to where it is clear that they are not actually 338 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: they're protesting what they playing themselves. They're protesting, UM. You know, 339 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: they're they're losing sympathy because eventually their signs started being 340 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: about Antifa instead of about electracy protecting the children themselves. UM. 341 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: So their own messaging kind of probably also at fault there. 342 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: But this issue is still always going to be at 343 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: risk for attracting different new Nazi groups. UM. I mean 344 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: we've seen Orlando and Ow there's a relition of Nazi 345 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: surgery together to attack story Hour. We've actually seen some 346 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 1: of that in New York. And it was just coincidence 347 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: that this crazy atax um showing to a tax story 348 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,239 Speaker 1: I was the same day. Perhaps other groups were um 349 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: say too much something. Yeah, I was just gonna say, 350 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: I mean about the you know, neo Nazis and other 351 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: areas coming in protesting these drug Queen Story Hours. I 352 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: mean that the first bigger one we did was at 353 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: Elmhurst Library. There were not only somebody who was at 354 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: a neo Nazi rally in front of Trump Tower once 355 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: we had a January six insurrectionists and I think Holly 356 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: can probably speak to those two characters a little more. 357 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: But then there was some other there was another drug 358 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: Queen Story Hour where someone from g d L showed up. 359 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: And I'm sure you're familiar with g d L, Robert right, yes, yes, yeah, 360 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: the Goyam Defense League, these guys around the hate bus 361 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: flying the swastika there. Yeah, I mean you just said swastika. 362 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: But in place people are not aware of what Goyam means. 363 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: What you need to know is the Gham Defense League 364 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: or hardcore not Zis. Yeah, like they are legitimate, straight 365 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: up neo Nazis. They fly to swastika, they go harassed 366 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: Jewish neighborhoods um in those yeah capital m Nazi. Yeah, 367 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: one of them went and harassed one of the drag 368 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: Queen story I was recently. Uh then he ran off 369 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: and said he was going to get his friends and 370 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: didn't show up with anyone else from what then, Speaking 371 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: of neo Nazis, you probably know Jovie Valve. Oh yeah, 372 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: Jovie and I had a conversation a couple of years 373 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: ago with with my good friend Goad. Yeah, your old buddy. 374 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Well, he showed up at um I believe 375 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: it was a pediatric health care facility. I don't know 376 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: if they do gender affirming care, but he was in 377 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: front of it to sign I'm sorry, I said, neither 378 00:22:55,160 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: did he? Yeah, exactly. It was literally because the clinic 379 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: had pried flags in the window. Yeah, okay, because he 380 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: was holding up a sign that said I'd rather a 381 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: Nazi than a pedophile, which is just like a nonsensible 382 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: and be like, we all know, just say you're a 383 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: fucking Nazi. Why is that the choice. It's so funny 384 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: because there's like pictures of him with the swastic netflace, 385 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: like doing the Roman salute, like everyone knows you're a Nazi. 386 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: You know, he's completely unashamed. And that's the weirdest part 387 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: about him, because you know, he learned an interesting lesson 388 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: about wearing just a you know, a maga hat in 389 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: a bar in Brooklyn a few years ago. If anyone 390 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: knows what incident I'm talking about, Oh yeah, So I 391 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: find it interesting that this actually did not deter him 392 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: from ever leaving his house again, you know, nearly losing 393 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: his entire nose, um so, and then still deciding to 394 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 1: just double down and actually start carrying the Nazi flags, 395 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: thinking it'll go better this time. Um And apparently he 396 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: just guys trying to make Nazi ship. He's trying to 397 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: make his name again in two like jovie Val is, 398 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: like he's he's expired, and he doesn't seem to realize 399 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: that he's one of You know, what I'm gonna do 400 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: is I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna have nobody 401 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: with me, and I'm just gonna be standing in front 402 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: of a closed pediatric clinic, like with a sign telling 403 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: people all they see from a distance is the word 404 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: pedophile and the word Nazi. But I mean, he did 405 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: have his one little body with him in fairness, according 406 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: to his own videos that he posted of the encounter, 407 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: and that buddy of his, whoever he was, could be 408 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: heard saying, uh something like hey man, you know I 409 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: can't fight actually got posted on Telegram and he said, Jovie, 410 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: I can't find I can't find man, I can't find 411 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: you can also hear Jovi Yeah, like what are you doing? 412 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: What are you doing? As he gets tossed into like 413 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: a construction area, and he's such an embarrassment to like 414 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: even other Nazis. They're even making fun of him online. 415 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: I mean somebody literally said that, why does jovie always 416 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: get his ass kicked? This is ridiculous. He is he 417 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 1: is the kind of he is the kind and generation 418 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:27,719 Speaker 1: of Nazi that other Nazis consider cringe like fucking Jovie 419 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: valve ate him so much. At the same time, though, 420 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: it is a little bit alarming because all of this 421 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: attention on UH figures such as Jovie Vale failing every 422 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: time and like stepping on rakes metaphorically every time he 423 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: goes outside, it does kind of open a nerving vacuum 424 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: up to like, oh what, I can be a way 425 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: better Nazi than that. So that is the part that 426 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: concerns me. If the constant attention is that, um, you know, 427 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: Jovie Val did not succeed in organizing a transphobic Nazi 428 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: rally outside of a closed pediatric clinic. Okay, I guess 429 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: that's a win. But who else sees that and sees 430 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: and thinks, oh, we can do so much better because 431 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 1: we do have a problem with unidentified Nazis throughout New 432 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: York City. There's you know, there's been increases in all 433 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: sorts of graffiti all over the subways, um Nazi literature 434 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: being put on trains and lefted places. It's, uh, you know, 435 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: so who is seeing this and how what is the 436 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: messaging exactly to say that you won't succeed if you 437 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: try this either, just because you know, Jovi keeps getting 438 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: his ship rocked, like we need you to know he will, 439 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: you will get your ship. I mean, that's the most 440 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: important thing, at least in my experience, and that is 441 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: mostly as an observer. I'm not an organizer, but I've 442 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: I've watched what's happened in the Pacific Northwest. And the 443 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: reason why these people don't rally in Portland's the way 444 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,239 Speaker 1: they used to is they were faced with consequences and 445 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: that required I mean, that was that was not a 446 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: simple process. It took fucking five years, and a lot 447 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: of people got broken bones and a number of them 448 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: got killed. But like that is that is the thing 449 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,239 Speaker 1: people like. These people's lives have to be created. And 450 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: one of the things that is a real problem is 451 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: that it's a lot easier to create people for rallying, 452 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: or it used to be. Number one, it used to 453 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: be easier to create people's lives because they were willing 454 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: to rally with Nazis. But also now the right has 455 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: succeeded in mainstreaming these two specific things, going after drag 456 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: Queen story our events and going after reproductive healthcare clinics 457 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: and the people using them, to such a degree that 458 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,640 Speaker 1: it's gotten a lot harder to ruin people's lives over 459 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: this sort of thing. That's that's true. But at the 460 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: same time, there is an increase in so many of 461 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: them who are just unabashedly that way, beset their full names, addresses, 462 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: photos they say, you know, identifying or doc see them 463 00:27:52,640 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: is not there. It's just actually almost hyeah is in vogue, 464 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: like most like a large chunk of the country is 465 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: totally fine if you're a crazy bigot. The far right 466 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: is radicalizing in a sort of gradual pace over the 467 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: course of many years. UM And what's happening with um 468 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: people who are countering them is that there is this 469 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: density of media and pundits sort of um looking down 470 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: their nose at the decorum of countering them. So you know, 471 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: we look at Penn State, UM students showed up in mass, 472 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: hundreds of them, UM significantly outnumbered the Proud Boys that 473 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: did show up, the fascist that did show up and 474 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: successfully shut the event down. But there's still this like 475 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: armchair pungentry reflex to say, oh, well, they didn't do 476 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: it right. There's no like it's not the right way 477 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: to protest. And I think, um, what Barry is sort 478 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: of Verry mentioned earlier about everyday anti fascists, and that's 479 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: again like with your neighbors and recognizing that it's not 480 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: this weird, um inaccessible, like isolated group of people who 481 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,959 Speaker 1: solely show up very militant and in black block and 482 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: they've got like all this training and all these like 483 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: slogans and slang and words, and you know, it's it's 484 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: none of that iconography. Because that is also the conservative 485 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: media i e. Andy know constantly refers to all sorts 486 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: of things as, oh, this is just antifa, and the 487 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: purpose of that is to make it seem like you 488 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: can't do that too, when in reality he uh andy 489 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: know that little ship stain. He referred to the defense 490 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: of the successful defense at the Elmhurst Library. He claimed 491 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: that it was ANTIFA militants. When I happen to know, 492 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: there was as a pastor who was there. There was 493 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: a nursing mother with her infant and her toddler who 494 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: was there. There were librarians present, and there were people 495 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: who showed up because they were in the neighborhood and 496 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: they heard that far right extremists were going to try 497 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: and grass And sure enough, just like Tom mentioned, there 498 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: was a J six insurrectionist who tried to get into 499 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: the building. I recognize, Yeah, he tried to rush in. 500 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: I recognized him. His name is Mitchell Bosh. He's best 501 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: known for getting arrested for taking a knee in a 502 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: burger king. Get arrested, okay, hoodie. Yeah, this guy tried 503 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: to rush in and I don't know how it happened, 504 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: but all of a sudden, my arm was hooked into 505 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: his arm, twisting his upper body slightly, so he didn't 506 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: have a good he didn't have good leverage to try 507 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: and burst into the building where I knew that if 508 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: he got in, he would refuse to leave until he 509 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: was physically removed by police, so then he could then 510 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,719 Speaker 1: go online and say that he was fighting for freedom 511 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: and collect bullshit donations for bullshit legal funds. So getting 512 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: all back to this though, is that the media and 513 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: like these these pundits and everything, they are complicit in 514 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: making it harder for people to build community. But people 515 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: need to understand it is literally your neighbors. It is 516 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: your local librarians, it is your UH friends, it is 517 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: your coworkers, it's regular people. The same way people showed 518 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: up to protest in they you know, oh, should I 519 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: bring a sign? Should I bring a bottle of water? 520 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: Should I bring my a d what should I bring? 521 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: And they just showed up and they mark you can 522 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: do the same thing because when you have a significant 523 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: number of people, you don't need to worry about being 524 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: militant because you outnumber them. And across the board, if 525 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: you look at data, the positions and the politics that 526 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: these people hold and the things that they're pushing are 527 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: in the significant minority of opinion. A majority of people 528 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: are totally fine with trans people. They're totally fine dregs 529 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: story our like it's not a thing. But people aren't 530 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: showing up to remind them that their opinion is the 531 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: minority and they are outnumbered. Yeah. I was going to 532 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: say I agree with that last point, And unfortunately the 533 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: problem seems to be about our kind of cultural um 534 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: inability to agree on the definition of violence and how 535 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: even though people are okay largely with queer and trans 536 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: people and protecting trans kids, UM, and they definitely do 537 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: not support Nazis, UM, they still do not think that 538 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: UM any kind of militant action, including violence against these 539 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: people is ever appropriate. UM. And just a direct response 540 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: to the Penn State thing that goes beyond punditory, even 541 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: because Penn State itself released a statement saying that UM 542 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: that it does not condone violence without saying who started 543 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: the violence, ak the Proud Boys, who are amazing people. UM, 544 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: they said that, uh, just because you don't agree with 545 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: a speaker and their right to free speech the game 546 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: UM hateful tour of Gavin mcinnesson the Proud Boys, UM 547 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: that there is no excuse for violence. So they denounced 548 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: the content of the message as well as the response 549 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: to the message. So we're kind of in this limbo 550 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: where people who have the voice to send these messages 551 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: are still playing the meat at the dinner table both sides. 552 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: Surely we can come to a peaceful resolution and then 553 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: blaming the side that actually is militantly opposed to it 554 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: and how to overcome that, I don't know, but I 555 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: do think the like Tolly also said, every day anti 556 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: fascism is a pretty good start. Yeah, I mean with 557 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: every day anti fascism, like the right does this grassritt 558 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: organizing and gets people to like tacitly agree with what 559 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: the Proud Boys and these fascist groups do. I think 560 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: there's plenty of like normal people who would tacitly agree 561 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: with what we're doing on this side of things. Um, 562 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: but I mean you look at like I think it 563 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: was a body campaigning for Maybe it was Ron de Santis, 564 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: Robert you know about this. It was like a literal 565 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: neo Nazi who got it was a Ruby Rubio and 566 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: it was the guy was a member of the He 567 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: was a Cuban fascist who was a member of the 568 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: League of the South. Like there was a journalist online 569 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: who was like this is awful. Somebody's like he's literally 570 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: a Nazi. And then you look up this journalists like 571 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: history of articles she's written, and one was like this 572 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 1: is why you should be friends with the Nazi or 573 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, but that's literally like we should be friend Nazis. 574 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: Like it's it is ridiculous how so much of the 575 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: Mazed dream is like, let's come to the table and 576 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: be polite. I mean, I really think, and I think 577 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: a lot of other people think, when it comes to 578 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 1: Nazis and fascists in the far right, you have to 579 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: make it as costly as possible, whatever that means to you. 580 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: You have to make it as costly as possible for 581 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: them so they are deterred from doing this. Organizer. Yeah, 582 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: I think that's the the most durable conclusion certainly that 583 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: I have. Seems like what y'all have experienced too and 584 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: are continuing to experience. Is there is there anything else 585 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: y'all wanted to get into about about what's been happening 586 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: in with with these events before we kind of close 587 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: out for the day. The only thing I could think 588 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: to add was that that it's not over. And um 589 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: people might think, oh, they stopped coming to Drag Story 590 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: hours for whatever reason, but they're going to find the 591 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,760 Speaker 1: next thing, the next issue, the next clinic, the next hospital, 592 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 1: the next healthcare provider. The next family was trans children. Uh, 593 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: they have dresses, they have names, they know where to go. 594 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: They're just looking for when they feel most emboldened to 595 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: do so. Um, And it's kind of it's hard to 596 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: communicate that because people think, oh, Okay, that was a 597 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: successful action. You know, we're done, We're done with them 598 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: for now. But I don't know, it's it's it's just 599 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: it's really hard to communicate the message that, like, you know, 600 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 1: it's like head on this level, this is the this 601 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 1: is the hardest thing to not just to get across 602 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 1: to people, but to kind of like actively except for yourself, 603 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: because it's it's one of the most frustrating realities of 604 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: living in our society, and there's no way to get 605 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: around it, which is that like not being eaten by 606 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: these people is the result of constant vigilance against them. 607 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: Like they win if you don't continue showing up and 608 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: one day in in in the bright blue yonder. I 609 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 1: do believe that if people continue showing up and continue 610 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: making it clear that their cause is hopeless, these people 611 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: will I'll drink themselves to death or whatever. But um, 612 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: you know that's that's not an immediate term sort of thing. No, 613 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: I know, and I mean for just my personal note, like, yes, 614 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: that is exactly the mode I'm in now. And I 615 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: mean I'm a Jewish anti fascist organizer. It's almost this 616 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: kind of history repeating itself ancestral um to keep at it. 617 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: And I'm one of many people UM in the same 618 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: kind of mindset towards not an option to rest and 619 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: wait until they you know, strike when they think we're 620 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: not looking. Yeah, but it's it's you know, obviously yeah, 621 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: I mean we have like, we have evidence that they 622 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: are looking for the next thing. We have evidence that UM. 623 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: You know, there's this one woman who got heavily involved 624 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: with UM, the anti vax group New York Freedom Rally UM, 625 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: and she would go on you know, Instagram live stream 626 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: saying a lot of like transphobic stuff. But she never 627 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 1: transferred that over onto public spaces until this week, where 628 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: she reiterated the same points that she was making in 629 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: the privacy of her home on that live stream to 630 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: her little audience. She's now saying it on a stage 631 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: that she's sharing with the candidate for governor, Lee z Eldon. UM. 632 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: She's she's repeating these same things, So it's showing also 633 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: that they are finding it. They're finding themselves more comfortable 634 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: in saying these uh bigoted things and pushing more extreme 635 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: things and expecting for their followers and their friends to 636 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: follow suit. There's people who have shown up to these 637 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: harassments of drag story art who have said directly to 638 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: me that they don't really agree with the harassment itself, 639 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: but that their friends are they're doing the harassment, and 640 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 1: so they're showing up for them, and that's a very 641 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: quick road to they are going to decide to care 642 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: about this very deeply and go very hard about it. 643 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: But what has worked is when people show up and 644 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: make it not happy and not good for them, when 645 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: their footage is ruined, when their sound bites are sucked up, 646 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,879 Speaker 1: when they are blocked from doing the thing that they're 647 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: trying to do to generate that content to feed that 648 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: like bigoted beast. When people show up, when those events 649 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: keep happening, that's a big thing is that like the 650 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: venues that host these events need to not cancel them, 651 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: because when those venues cancel, it tells the biggests that 652 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: they are winning. And what needs to happen is the 653 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: venues feeling brave to put out calls for community support 654 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: the same way that had been in Eugene. Because when 655 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: that then you put out that ask, they got hundreds 656 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: of people and they outnumbered the biggests ten to one. 657 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,240 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say I was, I'm very heartened 658 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: by like how supportive the UH people in the neighborhoods 659 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: and libraries have been, whether they're allowed to officially support 660 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: anything or not, it's been you know, nice to know 661 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: that people are happy we're there. And also I would 662 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: really love to see a name of Jovie Val stepping 663 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 1: on a rank. Now you had that image in my head. Yah, Um, 664 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:57,919 Speaker 1: was there anything else we wanted to get to? UH? 665 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:06,280 Speaker 1: Self defense is community effect defense and if people are interested. UM. 666 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,720 Speaker 1: People in New York created something called I fact Fund 667 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: where you donate funds and then people who want to 668 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: receive individual first aid kits UM can request one and 669 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: receive one for free. UM. And it was created in 670 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 1: honor of a anti fascist badass named torch Um who 671 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: is always present a UM. But yeah, if if people 672 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 1: wanted to check that out, it's UH. The Twitter account 673 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: is just at I fact Fund, I f a k 674 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: fund UM if they want to donate I think it's 675 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: uh cash app is I fact fund? I think you 676 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: know someone else could look at up to check dollar 677 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: sign fund. Oh, I'm sorry dollar signed I fact fund. 678 00:40:52,480 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: Thank you whatever. Yeah, Um, and you know it's it's 679 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: just a matter of like knowing that we keep us 680 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: safe in every sense of the word. Yeah. And I 681 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: think that's a that's a perfect note to end on. 682 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: Thank you all for your time, Thank you for continuing 683 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: to be out there in the streets. Um and everybody 684 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:28,320 Speaker 1: else get out there and make a fascist stay worse. 685 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 1: We live in an age of uprising. From Haydi to 686 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: Hong Kong, from Ecuador to Sudan, from Chile to Myanmar, 687 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: from the US to Iran, an entire generation has been 688 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: confronted with the horror of our world and took the 689 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: simple expedient of picking up a brick and throwing it 690 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: at a cop. Yet, as the uprising swept the globe, 691 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 1: there was one country where it was considered impossible. Every expert, 692 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: every policymaker, every kid on a street corner new there 693 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 1: was simply no chance of a mass street movement in China. 694 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 1: On Monday, it was unimaginable. On Friday, it was everywhere 695 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: welcome to it could happen here. What we've been watching 696 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,840 Speaker 1: for the past three weeks now is the failure of 697 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: one of the most sophisticated political regimes in human history, 698 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: a political, social, and economic regime designed specifically to stop this. 699 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,439 Speaker 1: One moment, after thirty years of repression, the national mass 700 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: street movement has returned to China. This is what it 701 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: was all about, everything from the censorship policies to union 702 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: busting to subsidize mortgages from a rising Chinese middle class. 703 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,840 Speaker 1: It was about keeping people from going back to the streets, 704 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: to make even the idea of it impossible. And yet 705 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: here we are. In one sense, the Party is little 706 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 1: to fear from this round of protests, barring an immense 707 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: intensification of violence, which at the moment seems extremely unlikely. 708 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: But in another sense, the CCP is perhaps the last 709 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: regime on earth that truly remembers the previous age of revolution, 710 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,879 Speaker 1: that remembers when the workers took Shanghai in sixty seven, 711 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: very nearly took Beijing and eighty nine. These are people 712 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: who understand that China's political system is built on shaving 713 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 1: a sleeping bear, and no matter how profitable that system 714 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: is there's always a chance that one day that bear 715 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: is going to wake up. Now the bear isn't fully 716 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 1: awake yet. We are not watching in China full scale 717 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: uprising unless you're Dan or Myanmar. But that bear the 718 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,839 Speaker 1: air too, maybe the most militant working class and modern 719 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: world has ever seen, is starting to open its eyes. 720 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: So what is the CCP currently facing. Since about November, 721 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 1: there have been widespread anti government protests in China. Unlike 722 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: anything we've seen in the last thirty year years. These 723 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: protests are everywhere. They're in Beijing, They're in Nanjing, They're 724 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 1: in Shanghai. There in guang Show, there in Shing. John 725 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 1: will get back to that one in a second. There 726 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 1: in Wuhan, reports I saw said that there were protests 727 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: at seventy seven universities. That number is almost certainly an 728 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: under account now and these student protests are not just 729 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: taking place at small colleges in the middle of nowhere. 730 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: There were protests at singh Qua University, which for an 731 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,280 Speaker 1: American audience I would compare to China's version of Harvard. 732 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,960 Speaker 1: It's the college that produces the upper echelon if the 733 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 1: Chinese ruling class. Hi Jimping graduated from there, so did 734 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: his predecessor, Hu Jintao. And the only reason that ju 735 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 1: Jintao's predecessor did not graduate from there is that that 736 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 1: guy was so old that he went to college under 737 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: the Japanese occupation. When I was originally writing this, I 738 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: had a joke here about how the only city where 739 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 1: there haven't been protest is Harbin, which is the city 740 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 1: in the absolute middle of nowhere in northern China. But no, 741 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: I googled it, and it turns out there have been 742 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: protests in bloody Harbin. For people who aren't very good 743 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: at Chinese geography, which is probably most people. This means 744 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 1: these protests are everywhere. There in the north, there in 745 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 1: the south, they're in the east, there in the west, 746 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,360 Speaker 1: they're in the far West. And it's true that a 747 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: lot of these protests are not that big, although some 748 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 1: of them are absolutely massive. But the importance here is 749 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: that this is the first time in thirty years that 750 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,839 Speaker 1: we've seen widespread national protests over a single issue in China, 751 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,319 Speaker 1: the anormity of which is compounded by the fact that 752 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,360 Speaker 1: people in the streets of cities like Shanghai are openly 753 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: calling for the fall of the CCP and Sijianping, something 754 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: that by itself can get you a decade in prison 755 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,799 Speaker 1: just for saying we can ask what these protests are 756 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: actually about. The version you see in the American press 757 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,879 Speaker 1: is that these are anti lockdown protests, are protests against 758 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 1: China's COVID zero policy, or that they're also pro democracy 759 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,799 Speaker 1: protests against the entire regime. And this is sort of 760 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,760 Speaker 1: true as far as it goes, but it doesn't capture 761 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: the core of what's going on, which is that what 762 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 1: we're seeing is a widespread fusion of labor rebellion, anti 763 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: police brutality protests, and a revolt against the authoritarian state. 764 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: The thing that's brought all of this together is the 765 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 1: CCPs COVID policy, but that's because that policy is the 766 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 1: most visible and most concentrated expression of the state's general 767 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 1: authoritarian is a bit brutal war against the working class. 768 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: We can learn a lot about what's actually been happening 769 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 1: by going back a little bit to the very start 770 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 1: of the protests. There are three specific events that sparked 771 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,239 Speaker 1: the protests, two of which are pretty well covered and 772 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: one of which has been basically ignored because of how 773 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,239 Speaker 1: long ago it happened. The first spark is essentially an 774 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,839 Speaker 1: event in its own right. This is what I would 775 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 1: call the fox Con revolts, a series of worker uprisings 776 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: against the manufacturer of the iPhone, which with a single factory, 777 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 1: controls vast portions of the regional economy of Hainan Province, 778 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,280 Speaker 1: whereas large as factory is based. The fox Con revolt 779 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,360 Speaker 1: is I'm brewing for a long time. It began essentially 780 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,720 Speaker 1: when fox Con began to impose what's called the closed 781 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,360 Speaker 1: loop system. The closed loop system was originally developed by 782 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 1: the NBA to run an NBA season during the beginning 783 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: of the pandemic. The idea is that you keep everyone 784 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,279 Speaker 1: inside a closed loop. This means that everyone in the 785 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,719 Speaker 1: production process has no contact with the outside world at 786 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: all for as long as the manufacturing cycle goes. The 787 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 1: CCP started adopting the closed loop as they hit problems 788 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 1: with their twin imperatives to both stop COVID and also 789 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,520 Speaker 1: to make sure that fox Con hit its production targets 790 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: so Apple could have enough iPhones for the Christmas rush. 791 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 1: The result was that as an October wave of infections 792 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: hit Hangan Province, where fox CON's largest factory, was located. 793 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: Two hundred thousand workers were put into a closed loop system, 794 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,240 Speaker 1: which meant they were trapped in the factory in their dormitories. 795 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,480 Speaker 1: In order to keep this factory running, fox Con needs 796 00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 1: about a hundred thousand migrant workers. The problem from capital 797 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,760 Speaker 1: perspective with MiCT workers is that they can, if things 798 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 1: get bad enough, just go home, and that's exactly what happens. 799 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: Workers inside the fox Con plant started to be quarantined 800 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 1: with people who were sick in the same dormitory. And 801 00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,840 Speaker 1: it's worth noting here that these dormitories are tiny. The 802 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:23,399 Speaker 1: conditions even outside of lockdown are atrocious, and when people 803 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,400 Speaker 1: were suddenly getting quarantined with people who were sick, workers 804 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,920 Speaker 1: essentially just said no and started to stage massive breakouts. 805 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: There are incredible videos of these trains of people like 806 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: along the road walking home as sort of hitching rides 807 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,880 Speaker 1: on people's trucks, fleeing the factory. We don't actually know 808 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: how many workers escaped, but it was enough to be 809 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,720 Speaker 1: a massive problem for Capital. Again, they need these workers 810 00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,560 Speaker 1: in order to make enough iPhones this for Christmas. Current 811 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,600 Speaker 1: estimates suggest that Apple is somewhere between eleven and fifteen 812 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,560 Speaker 1: million units behind what it needs to make the Christmas rush. 813 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,480 Speaker 1: So fox Con had the local government recruiting people to 814 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 1: go work in a factory. What they told these workers 815 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: was that if they entered the closed loop for thirty days, 816 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,040 Speaker 1: they'd be given three thousand yuan which is about four 817 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 1: hundred and fifteen dollars to live on for the next month, 818 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,360 Speaker 1: and then get paid thirty on or about four dollars 819 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: an hour, and then after the end of the next 820 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:22,160 Speaker 1: dirty days they'd get another three thousand john In the US, 821 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,000 Speaker 1: this would be a subminimum wage poverty job for a 822 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,120 Speaker 1: Chinese worker. This is a lot of money, or it 823 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: would have been had it not been for one minor problem. 824 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,600 Speaker 1: All of it was bullshit. Fox Con and the CCP 825 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,760 Speaker 1: were lying out of their asses. After workers were already 826 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,200 Speaker 1: in the closed loop, they learned that the two three 827 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: thousand yuan bonuses weren't going to be paid until March 828 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:47,600 Speaker 1: and May of next year, meaning that in order to 829 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,720 Speaker 1: get what they were promised for two months of work, 830 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,800 Speaker 1: they were going to have to work for seven months. Also, 831 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 1: the thirty U on an hour wage that they were 832 00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 1: promised was a lie. They were getting paid substantially less 833 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:04,880 Speaker 1: than that. So on Tuesday of November, workers who had 834 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: emerged from quarantine to start work only to learn that 835 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 1: they had been systematically lied to by both the governments 836 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:16,759 Speaker 1: and Chinese and Taiwanese capitalists came out of their dormitories 837 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,799 Speaker 1: and demanded that they either get their money or be 838 00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 1: allowed to leave. There's another part of this account that 839 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,080 Speaker 1: I think complicates a lot of the sort of narratives 840 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,960 Speaker 1: that we've heard about what the Chinese poster about that 841 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:29,120 Speaker 1: did not make the Western press at all, which is 842 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,920 Speaker 1: that these workers were also demanding that their bosses quote 843 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:36,560 Speaker 1: implement pandemic prevention and control measures. Um, it's not entirely 844 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,440 Speaker 1: clue what the specific demands refers to, but it seems 845 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,160 Speaker 1: to be about not quarantining sick people in the same 846 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,760 Speaker 1: dorms as healthy people, a thing that seems relatively obvious, 847 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:52,720 Speaker 1: but capitalism regardless. The product of bosses ignoring these demands 848 00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,200 Speaker 1: was several days of full scale fighting with the police. 849 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,239 Speaker 1: On November twenty three, a bunch of videos began to 850 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,319 Speaker 1: spread of work is taking those metal police barricades that 851 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 1: you see all the time in the US that are 852 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: essentially an arch with a bunch of bars and not 853 00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,399 Speaker 1: get into a flat base. You've you've probably seen these 854 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,240 Speaker 1: picking them up and straight up throwing them at cops 855 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,680 Speaker 1: or grabbing them and beating police riot shields with them. 856 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,719 Speaker 1: I have I have never seen anything like it. It 857 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,800 Speaker 1: was absolutely wild. At this point, after several days of fighting, 858 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,799 Speaker 1: after their own regular security people literally refused to show 859 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,800 Speaker 1: up to go fight these workers, and police from outside 860 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,960 Speaker 1: had to be called in. Fox Con gave up said okay, 861 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,800 Speaker 1: we will give you ten thousand yond to literally leave 862 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,839 Speaker 1: right now, please just stop, And a lot of people 863 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,040 Speaker 1: took the money and left. And in any other year, 864 00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,719 Speaker 1: in any other moment, that would have been the end 865 00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,800 Speaker 1: of it. The fox Con riots would be another episode 866 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,520 Speaker 1: in the never ending series of they tried not to 867 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,360 Speaker 1: pay us riots that are the most common one of 868 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,400 Speaker 1: the most common forms of workers protests in China. Instead, 869 00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,719 Speaker 1: on Thanksgiving Day in the United States, videos started to 870 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,400 Speaker 1: circulate of a fire in a residential block in a 871 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:09,160 Speaker 1: room Sheet, the capital of shing Jong. There are several 872 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,359 Speaker 1: videos of the fire. In one that journalists were able 873 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,400 Speaker 1: to verify, you can hear people screaming from inside the 874 00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,080 Speaker 1: building as they tried and failed to escape the flames. 875 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,320 Speaker 1: Further videos showed that cops had barricaded off the streets 876 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,960 Speaker 1: with metal wires as a way to enforcing John's one 877 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,480 Speaker 1: hundred day long lockdown, which prevented firefighters from getting to 878 00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:33,120 Speaker 1: the scene. Firefighters can be seen firing water hoses at 879 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: the building, only for the hoses arc to fall shorts 880 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,800 Speaker 1: trapped behind barricades that prevented them from getting any closer. 881 00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,640 Speaker 1: Speculation about whether the doors of the apartment building themselves 882 00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,680 Speaker 1: have been sealed shut with locks or barricaded from the outside, 883 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,279 Speaker 1: as had happened to so many other people's homes during 884 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,120 Speaker 1: the lockdown, ran rampant. One video I saw from another 885 00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,319 Speaker 1: city appeared to show workers and has met suits who 886 00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,239 Speaker 1: become known as the Big Whites, literally welding someone's door 887 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,560 Speaker 1: shut to keep them in. To make matters worse, the 888 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,600 Speaker 1: head of the roomsche city Fire Rescue department blamed the 889 00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:11,200 Speaker 1: families for their own deaths, saying quote some residents abilities 890 00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:15,200 Speaker 1: to rescue themselves were too weak. These are the videos 891 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,600 Speaker 1: the fragments of Nightmares brought to life that started the 892 00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,880 Speaker 1: mass protests. This is a revolution scene at thirty second intervals. 893 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,359 Speaker 1: Everyone is trying to beat the sensors, clips float back 894 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,640 Speaker 1: and forth between weach at, Twitter telegram back to weach 895 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:33,880 Speaker 1: hat again. Ironically, many sensors were ready home for the weekend, 896 00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,760 Speaker 1: allowing clips and posts that otherwise would have been removed 897 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:41,239 Speaker 1: immediately to circulate for hours and sometimes even days. These 898 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,000 Speaker 1: brought back the memory of the third Spark, the one 899 00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:46,800 Speaker 1: that's basically been forgotten about in the West, if anyone 900 00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:48,800 Speaker 1: even cared to know about it in the first place. 901 00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,800 Speaker 1: In September, a bus full of people with COVID and 902 00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,560 Speaker 1: Guangzho that the government was shipping to a quarantine center 903 00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,960 Speaker 1: crashed and killed twenty seven people, wounding twenty others. Condition 904 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,880 Speaker 1: in these centers, which COVID patients are often forced to 905 00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,200 Speaker 1: go to rather than quarantining in their homes, are atrocious. 906 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,120 Speaker 1: Pictures and videos circulate constantly of bathrooms covered in human 907 00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,600 Speaker 1: ship from failing drainage systems, as China's already over tax 908 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,360 Speaker 1: medical systems simply failed to keep up with the demands 909 00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,480 Speaker 1: on a place by the government, which, like the American government, 910 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,759 Speaker 1: has and continues to systematically refuse to invest in medical infrastructure. 911 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,480 Speaker 1: Intimate familiarity with these wretched conditions and the raw horror 912 00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,440 Speaker 1: at the deaths and Shing John and Guangzho sparked protests 913 00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,840 Speaker 1: across the country. In a room sheet and now seventy 914 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:40,480 Speaker 1: percent Han City under constant police occupation, Han protesters appeared 915 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,279 Speaker 1: to be moved in solidarity with the weaker families killed 916 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:46,040 Speaker 1: in the fire, and fought the police with a ferocity 917 00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,720 Speaker 1: unmatched anywhere but the migrant worker villages of Guangzho along 918 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,200 Speaker 1: the Parer River Delta, one of China's great manufacturing hubs. 919 00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,360 Speaker 1: These desperate struggles were given relatively little attention by a 920 00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:01,640 Speaker 1: Western media class enamored with the image of students carrying blank, 921 00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,040 Speaker 1: white pieces of paper to protest the censorship, a common 922 00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,919 Speaker 1: form of protests in places like Hong Kong. This time, 923 00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,919 Speaker 1: at least, they were tied to a particularly funny piece 924 00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:16,160 Speaker 1: of media censorship. As protests mounted, people started posting an 925 00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,640 Speaker 1: article version of a speech by Mao called let the 926 00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:23,759 Speaker 1: People Speak, the Sky will not Fall. Chinese censors quickly 927 00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,000 Speaker 1: ran into a classic CCP problem, which is that in 928 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,440 Speaker 1: a state whose heroes are communist revolutionaries, celebrated historical figures 929 00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,920 Speaker 1: produced an immense repertoire of slogans and quotes for subsequent 930 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,960 Speaker 1: generations and revolutionaries to draw from, which has caused the CCP, 931 00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,640 Speaker 1: at various points in time to ban the opening of 932 00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,160 Speaker 1: its own national anthem arise Ye who refused to be 933 00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,200 Speaker 1: slaves as sensors banned Let the people speak, the sky 934 00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,239 Speaker 1: will not fall. People began posting the article, but with 935 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,560 Speaker 1: the words replaced by squares. This too was also deleted 936 00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 1: and then posting simply blanks white squares themselves, which saw 937 00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,320 Speaker 1: their if auction in the students in the streets. The 938 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,160 Speaker 1: CCP in turn retreated to its traditional tactic of blaming 939 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,720 Speaker 1: the protests on foreign forces interfering in China, a claim 940 00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,000 Speaker 1: which is less incredible on a country that has rolled 941 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,360 Speaker 1: up the CIA's entire in country intelligence network at least 942 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:19,080 Speaker 1: once in the last decade. There's an incredible exchange has 943 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,319 Speaker 1: made the rounds between a cop who is telling a 944 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,240 Speaker 1: group of protesters that there are quote foreign forces around 945 00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:28,160 Speaker 1: manipulating the protests, who is immediately yelled at by a 946 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:32,240 Speaker 1: guy screaming who are the foreign forces? Marks and angles 947 00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:36,560 Speaker 1: Stalin and Lenin. Another man appears and asks, Hi, can 948 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:38,759 Speaker 1: I ask if it was foreign forces who started the 949 00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:42,719 Speaker 1: fire in Shing? John was the Guigo bus overturned by 950 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,480 Speaker 1: foreign forces. Another man grabs the mic and says, was 951 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,560 Speaker 1: everyone told to come here by foreign forces? The crowd 952 00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:54,279 Speaker 1: shouts no. He then makes an incredibly obvious point, We 953 00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,360 Speaker 1: can't even access to foreign internets. How are foreign forces 954 00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,400 Speaker 1: meant to be communicating with us? Another man says, we 955 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,840 Speaker 1: only have domestic forces, not allowing us to govern themselves. 956 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,840 Speaker 1: Where are these foreign forces from the moon? Still managing 957 00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,759 Speaker 1: these accusations to become a constant part of the protests, 958 00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:14,919 Speaker 1: with calls from protesters to stop chanting things like down 959 00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,560 Speaker 1: with the CCP, and attempts to keep the demands focused 960 00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:21,760 Speaker 1: on COVID policy like ending COVID zero. And this is 961 00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,800 Speaker 1: where things get incredibly muddled by a Western press that 962 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,240 Speaker 1: decided to stop giving a shit about COVID deaths a 963 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:31,040 Speaker 1: year ago, and a set of contrarians arguing that no, actually, 964 00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:35,320 Speaker 1: China's COVID policy is actually good. This entire debate hinges 965 00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,880 Speaker 1: on the conflation of the state of government policy of 966 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:41,000 Speaker 1: zero COVID, which is an attempt to stop all cases 967 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,040 Speaker 1: of COVID, and the actual execution of the policy, which 968 00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 1: has taken the form of a war against China's working 969 00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:50,880 Speaker 1: class and a set of draconian police state abuses. One 970 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,280 Speaker 1: thing that Western quote unquote experts have been quick to 971 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,480 Speaker 1: point out is that will the CCP has to keep 972 00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,480 Speaker 1: doing COVID zero or one point five million people will die. 973 00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,160 Speaker 1: There was a tiny bit of truth to this in 974 00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:07,560 Speaker 1: that one reason Chinese COVID restriction so so harsh is 975 00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,120 Speaker 1: that if COVID was simply let rip like it has 976 00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,240 Speaker 1: been in the US, it would go through China's largely unvaccinated, 977 00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,760 Speaker 1: rural elderly population like a chainsaw. And unlike in the US, 978 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,360 Speaker 1: if a million people died in China because the government 979 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,080 Speaker 1: fucked up a pandemic response, party officials would be getting 980 00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:25,560 Speaker 1: beaten to death in the streets. And part of the 981 00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,440 Speaker 1: reason for the crisis in China in the first place 982 00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,360 Speaker 1: is that the rest of the world gave up on 983 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,640 Speaker 1: trying to contain COVID entirely. If the rest of the 984 00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,960 Speaker 1: world had, you know, done their jobs and stamped out 985 00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,080 Speaker 1: the virus, none of us would be here right now. 986 00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,680 Speaker 1: On the other hand, no, absolutely not. You do not 987 00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,080 Speaker 1: actually need to wield people into their houses or drag 988 00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:48,960 Speaker 1: them by force out of their home so they can 989 00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,320 Speaker 1: die and bus crashes on their way to unsafe and 990 00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:55,720 Speaker 1: unsanitary pseudo hospitals with bathroom floors literally covered ship in 991 00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:59,320 Speaker 1: order to contain the pandemic. Lots of pandemics across human 992 00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,840 Speaker 1: history have contained without doing this ship just because the 993 00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,200 Speaker 1: two great world powers have decided that the COVID responses 994 00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,640 Speaker 1: are kill a million people by forcing everyone back to 995 00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:11,640 Speaker 1: work so that no one has to actually deal with 996 00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,880 Speaker 1: the political consequences of telling a bunch of unbelievably deranged 997 00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,920 Speaker 1: and heavily armed fascists no and lock two people in 998 00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,080 Speaker 1: a factory and forced them to make iPhones and then 999 00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:23,080 Speaker 1: beat the absolute shit out of them when it turns 1000 00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,960 Speaker 1: out you lied to them about their pay. Doesn't mean 1001 00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,160 Speaker 1: that there aren't other options that we could take for 1002 00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:31,760 Speaker 1: pandemic responses if we decided to stop letting a bunch 1003 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,800 Speaker 1: of venal and corrupt assholes rule us all. And this 1004 00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:37,840 Speaker 1: is something that people in China also understand. Even if 1005 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,720 Speaker 1: the Western press corps dead set on presenting their demands 1006 00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,760 Speaker 1: as if they're American anti maskers, you can tell, obviously 1007 00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:48,240 Speaker 1: the Chinese protesters are not simply a copy of right 1008 00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,160 Speaker 1: wing American fascists by simply looking at a picture of 1009 00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,840 Speaker 1: a protest and seeing how many people are wearing masks. 1010 00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:58,320 Speaker 1: China is not the US. Regular people actually do care 1011 00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,120 Speaker 1: about containing the pandemic. This is why there is a 1012 01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:03,600 Speaker 1: real pandemic response in the first place, after the government 1013 01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:06,520 Speaker 1: utterly boshed it. If you look at the actual demands 1014 01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,280 Speaker 1: of the protesters, you will see things that normally would 1015 01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,040 Speaker 1: seem more at home with liberal American protesters attempting to 1016 01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:16,400 Speaker 1: see pandemic restrictions enforced properly, things like our pandemic response 1017 01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:20,320 Speaker 1: must be based on science. But people, even people who 1018 01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,520 Speaker 1: don't want to die of a plague, do not want 1019 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,000 Speaker 1: to be horribly abused by cops or horrifically exploited by 1020 01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:29,400 Speaker 1: the state and capitalists. And that, I think is something 1021 01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:33,360 Speaker 1: we do all understand. Only time can tell what will 1022 01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:37,320 Speaker 1: happen to these protests. The government is quietly making concessions 1023 01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,120 Speaker 1: and not so quietly hunting down people who took to 1024 01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:43,640 Speaker 1: the streets. It is entirely possible that the protest will 1025 01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:48,240 Speaker 1: simply die, and that in two or three years most 1026 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,160 Speaker 1: people will have forgot they ever happened. From a sort 1027 01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:56,800 Speaker 1: of brutal materialist perspective, however, it seems unlikely. China's social 1028 01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,200 Speaker 1: system could function fine as long as growth was at 1029 01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:03,640 Speaker 1: fifteen or ten percent, or even eight percent, But when 1030 01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,760 Speaker 1: growth inevitably comes down to two percent, but the deal 1031 01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,320 Speaker 1: of keep your head down and everyone will get rich 1032 01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:13,320 Speaker 1: starts to look a lot less attractive. Covid is simply 1033 01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:17,000 Speaker 1: intensified all of the traditional contradictions in side Chinese society 1034 01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:20,360 Speaker 1: and made visible the horrors that previously had been obscured. 1035 01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,600 Speaker 1: And it seems unlikely that those contradictions will someday vanish. 1036 01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,080 Speaker 1: But here in the presence, the impossible continues, and every 1037 01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,200 Speaker 1: day it does is another day that the gates of 1038 01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:35,560 Speaker 1: possibility in h a bit further open. This espina could 1039 01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,919 Speaker 1: happened here. You can find us that happened here pot 1040 01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:41,200 Speaker 1: on Twitter or Instagram. We have a website closoned Media 1041 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:43,280 Speaker 1: dot com where you can see the sources for this 1042 01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,480 Speaker 1: In other episodes, Enjoy your week, and remember that you 1043 01:01:46,560 --> 01:02:09,840 Speaker 1: too can defeat your own ruling class. It could happen here. 1044 01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:16,520 Speaker 1: Rail Strike Edition. I'm Robert Evans, Garrison, Davis, Chris. How 1045 01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:19,240 Speaker 1: are we all? How are we all doing? How's this? 1046 01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,720 Speaker 1: We were talking about a rail strike today. We're praying, 1047 01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:26,680 Speaker 1: we're praying for it. It hasn't happened. If you're listening 1048 01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:29,040 Speaker 1: to this, you probably know the broad strokes of this, 1049 01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,320 Speaker 1: which is that the people who make the trains go, 1050 01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:34,120 Speaker 1: and by the way, trains are like a critical part 1051 01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,240 Speaker 1: of us all not starving to death or running out 1052 01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:38,640 Speaker 1: of insulin or whatever. The people who make those trains 1053 01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:40,760 Speaker 1: go have a pretty hard job and there's not a 1054 01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:43,520 Speaker 1: lot of them. And for a variety of reasons, that 1055 01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,040 Speaker 1: boiled down to companies not wanting to spend money. Uh, 1056 01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,080 Speaker 1: it's impossible for that. They don't get sick days. Um, 1057 01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,520 Speaker 1: So there were a bunch of other ship things like 1058 01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:55,400 Speaker 1: things that were shipped about the job, including pay, especially 1059 01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,760 Speaker 1: since rail company profits have been at like record levels, 1060 01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:02,520 Speaker 1: so they were threatening to strike. There were union negotiations. 1061 01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,720 Speaker 1: Some of the union leaders reached an agreement with the 1062 01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:10,280 Speaker 1: rail companies, but it wasn't it didn't include the sick days. 1063 01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:15,200 Speaker 1: So a lot of workers, potentially most of them are, 1064 01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,720 Speaker 1: we're at least willing to strike. And then Biden came 1065 01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:22,560 Speaker 1: in and had Congress basically say do the same thing 1066 01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,120 Speaker 1: Reagan did to the air traffic controllers in the eighties, 1067 01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,440 Speaker 1: where it's like, no, if you strike, it's illegal because 1068 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,919 Speaker 1: this is a too critical a service for the country. Anyway, 1069 01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:35,680 Speaker 1: that's broadly the situation. Chris, you know this a lot 1070 01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:39,640 Speaker 1: better than I, the most pro labor president, the most 1071 01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,240 Speaker 1: pro labor precord. Okay, this is I think this is 1072 01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:47,640 Speaker 1: actually like that's that's why I don't like, that's my knowledge, 1073 01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:49,680 Speaker 1: and I think that's close to a layman's knowledge. So 1074 01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:52,400 Speaker 1: I'm waiting for you to fill in the gap. All right, 1075 01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,080 Speaker 1: let's let's let's start with what Biden has actually done, 1076 01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:57,720 Speaker 1: because it's it's it's slightly different than what Reagan was 1077 01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,600 Speaker 1: doing there with the air traffic controllers. Um. Part of 1078 01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:03,040 Speaker 1: the reason everything is fucked up with the railroads is that, 1079 01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:07,560 Speaker 1: like railroads almost since their inception have had like an 1080 01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:12,120 Speaker 1: almost entirely different regulatory framework than like anything else. So 1081 01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:15,080 Speaker 1: you know, your normal strike is covered by the National 1082 01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:17,600 Speaker 1: Labor Relations Act, Right, you go through your National Labor 1083 01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,560 Speaker 1: Relations Board, you do your votes, blah blah blah blah. Uh. 1084 01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:23,160 Speaker 1: If your railroad workers are not covered by that, they're 1085 01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:26,640 Speaker 1: covered something by something called the Railway Labor Act, which 1086 01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:30,080 Speaker 1: lets Congress just be like no, fuck you, you have 1087 01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:32,320 Speaker 1: to take this contract and the other thing it does. 1088 01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:34,240 Speaker 1: I mean, there is like a it is a oh 1089 01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:37,520 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that so well before, so well before, 1090 01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,480 Speaker 1: like you know, the modern era, and Reagan did his 1091 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:43,560 Speaker 1: ship with the air traffic controllers. There was a it 1092 01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,000 Speaker 1: was written into the law that Congress could say like, yeah, 1093 01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,560 Speaker 1: you're a to a rail strike. That's really interesting, I guess. 1094 01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:50,440 Speaker 1: And it goes back to the days when they were 1095 01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:54,000 Speaker 1: literally making them out of human bones. Yeah. I mean 1096 01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:57,360 Speaker 1: it's been so it's been amended over time, and it's 1097 01:04:57,440 --> 01:04:59,200 Speaker 1: changed a bit. And there's some other stuff that happened 1098 01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,080 Speaker 1: in the nineties. After there's a there's a there's a 1099 01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:03,120 Speaker 1: failed rail strike in the nineties where Congress is also 1100 01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:05,160 Speaker 1: just like no, fuck you, you have to take this contract. 1101 01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:09,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, the the important thing about this is that like, okay, 1102 01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:13,080 Speaker 1: so in order to even potentially strike, you have to 1103 01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:16,480 Speaker 1: go through so much bullshit. It's called self help in 1104 01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,000 Speaker 1: the law. Like the people have been trying to strike 1105 01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:22,080 Speaker 1: for two years, and everything that we're seeing now is 1106 01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:25,120 Speaker 1: the product of two years of bullshit of these like 1107 01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:27,120 Speaker 1: there's all of this nonsense you have to go through. 1108 01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:29,800 Speaker 1: There's these like cooling off mandatory cooling off periods. You 1109 01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:32,800 Speaker 1: can't like, uh, you know, you have to like wait 1110 01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:34,080 Speaker 1: before you do anything else, and you you have to go 1111 01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:35,400 Speaker 1: to the next step, the next step, and the final 1112 01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,920 Speaker 1: step is Joe Biden had the choice to either let 1113 01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,120 Speaker 1: these rail workers strike and actually get the things that 1114 01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:43,320 Speaker 1: they fucking needed, or he could tell them to funk 1115 01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,240 Speaker 1: off and just eat a contract. And that that that 1116 01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:48,520 Speaker 1: that's what's happened right now, is that Joe Biden has 1117 01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:52,040 Speaker 1: just and also again with the support of both houses 1118 01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:55,680 Speaker 1: of Congress. And I also like explicitly want to mention 1119 01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:58,360 Speaker 1: here that a lot a lot of nominally socialist politicians, 1120 01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:03,080 Speaker 1: including like a lot of social Democrats vote talk about 1121 01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:05,240 Speaker 1: that too, because that that's that's another part of it. 1122 01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,400 Speaker 1: That again, so my my surface and I guess I'm 1123 01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:11,520 Speaker 1: playing playing the podcast idiot in this one, which is 1124 01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:14,960 Speaker 1: not abnormal for me. But my like layman's understanding of 1125 01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:17,640 Speaker 1: what happened with this is that, uh, there was a 1126 01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,760 Speaker 1: bill up in Congress as to whether or not to 1127 01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,800 Speaker 1: endorse this, and uh a bunch of progressives said that 1128 01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:27,760 Speaker 1: they wouldn't vote on it unless it included seven days 1129 01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:32,200 Speaker 1: of paid sick leave, including Sanders that got pushed off 1130 01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:35,680 Speaker 1: into a separate bill, and there was like some kind 1131 01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:38,080 Speaker 1: of sketchy wording about like well we won't you know, 1132 01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:42,040 Speaker 1: like I I don't, I don't understand the congressional hijinks, 1133 01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:44,520 Speaker 1: but I know they just wound up voting for the 1134 01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:49,479 Speaker 1: the negotiate like what the union had negotiated without any 1135 01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:52,760 Speaker 1: sick leaf like it. Yeah, Like it seems like it 1136 01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,240 Speaker 1: kind of provided an opportunity for a bunch of progressives 1137 01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,560 Speaker 1: in the House to vote yes on the sick leave 1138 01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:00,520 Speaker 1: knowing that it wouldn't pass the sent it and knowing 1139 01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:02,400 Speaker 1: that the strike would still get stopped. Right Like what 1140 01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:05,120 Speaker 1: am I um? I mean it's basically that like the 1141 01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,840 Speaker 1: I'm not a congress nowhere. Yeah, I mean, there there's 1142 01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:10,600 Speaker 1: a bunch of sort of hiji inks that were happening 1143 01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:13,000 Speaker 1: in Congress where there's there's a slightly different version of 1144 01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:14,680 Speaker 1: the bill in the House, and they had this whole thing. 1145 01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:19,600 Speaker 1: But okay, the House, the House one for sick leaved 1146 01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:23,400 Speaker 1: did pass with support of every Yeah, and it's three 1147 01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:27,600 Speaker 1: three Republicans. But okay, the thing I think I want 1148 01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:28,840 Speaker 1: to point out here and I want to move away 1149 01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:30,320 Speaker 1: from the sick leave thing, because the sick. That's the 1150 01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:32,200 Speaker 1: fact that these people don't have sick leave is important. 1151 01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,240 Speaker 1: This is also not like the main thing the strike 1152 01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:38,320 Speaker 1: was about, like things are, things are things are so 1153 01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:40,240 Speaker 1: much worse like things are, things are so much like 1154 01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:44,840 Speaker 1: infinitely worse than people like at all understands. Like what 1155 01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:46,920 Speaker 1: the thing that the thing that's real strike is about, 1156 01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,280 Speaker 1: if you if you go like actually talk to the 1157 01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,360 Speaker 1: people who are doing it, is that these people are 1158 01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,480 Speaker 1: on call for nine of their lives, like and and 1159 01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:57,240 Speaker 1: when I say nine percent of their lives, they're on 1160 01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:00,760 Speaker 1: call while they were asleep. They're on call constant. Uh, 1161 01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:02,400 Speaker 1: there's there's there's no way to even there's no way 1162 01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:04,200 Speaker 1: to plan a consistant sly schedule because you can just 1163 01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:07,520 Speaker 1: be on call and you know, and part part part 1164 01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:08,760 Speaker 1: of what's going on here. And if if you read 1165 01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:10,880 Speaker 1: the sort of detailed accounts, you will see a lot 1166 01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:14,480 Speaker 1: of people talking about this thing called precision scheduled railroading. Yeah, 1167 01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:20,120 Speaker 1: precision scheduled railroading was it was a great theory kind 1168 01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:26,439 Speaker 1: of that was implemented so atrociously badly. It's basically fucked 1169 01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,760 Speaker 1: like the entire economy. Um that the idea behind it 1170 01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:31,960 Speaker 1: was like you could you could schedule when like a 1171 01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,920 Speaker 1: freight railroad was going to go right, and this this 1172 01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:36,840 Speaker 1: would give you a bunch of efficiency bonuses. You could 1173 01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:40,840 Speaker 1: plan like you could schedule things around each other. Um, 1174 01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:42,960 Speaker 1: this just didn't happen people implementing it. But what they 1175 01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:48,720 Speaker 1: implemented was just this nightmarror like amalgamation of we're going 1176 01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,320 Speaker 1: to reduce a bunch of staff and then we're going 1177 01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:55,439 Speaker 1: to make these trains that have like two cars on them. 1178 01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:57,920 Speaker 1: And this has been a catastrophe. It's called monster trains 1179 01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:01,200 Speaker 1: that there's there's Justin Rosniak, who's podcast doesn't see it 1180 01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:03,479 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like a good solution to the problem of 1181 01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,559 Speaker 1: not enough guys to make trains work is make the 1182 01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:11,479 Speaker 1: trains huge. Yeah, it's like it's just denorable train crap. 1183 01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:14,680 Speaker 1: It's awful. Again, these are your tw orter trains long right, 1184 01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:16,120 Speaker 1: so if if you don't get the weight you ship 1185 01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:18,120 Speaker 1: you should write, the train will fucking fall over. They 1186 01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:20,080 Speaker 1: keep doing this this this has been happening for like 1187 01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:22,800 Speaker 1: several years now. Is there's just trains everywhere derailing. There's 1188 01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:24,880 Speaker 1: like no coverage of it. The reason, you know, you know, 1189 01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:27,160 Speaker 1: you know, you know where I knew that from Chris 1190 01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:29,680 Speaker 1: Garrison will tell you when I get when I get 1191 01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:31,800 Speaker 1: drunk or something late at night. My favorite thing to 1192 01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:35,040 Speaker 1: watch his videos of trains hitting stuff and train crashes 1193 01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:37,960 Speaker 1: are amazing to watch. It's incredible to think of all 1194 01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:40,759 Speaker 1: the human ingenuity it took to make that big, big boom. 1195 01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:44,920 Speaker 1: There's thousands of videos on YouTube of cool cargo getting 1196 01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:49,360 Speaker 1: stuck on train tracks and train happening through there yea 1197 01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:56,439 Speaker 1: boxes being pulverized in the air, they vaporized. It's so cool. 1198 01:09:57,640 --> 01:09:59,760 Speaker 1: So the downside is that one day we're going to 1199 01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:01,559 Speaker 1: have one of these trains that is run by a 1200 01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,200 Speaker 1: person who has had three hours of sleep in the 1201 01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:05,759 Speaker 1: last forty eight hours, and it's going to be caring, 1202 01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:08,599 Speaker 1: like fucking I don't know, it's gonna be carrying like 1203 01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:11,040 Speaker 1: sodium nitrate on it or some ship and it's just 1204 01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:12,960 Speaker 1: going to explode and it is going to kill enormous 1205 01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:15,439 Speaker 1: every pole. That just actually happened in Canada like a 1206 01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:18,799 Speaker 1: decade ago. But yeah, like these trains are too big. 1207 01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:21,280 Speaker 1: They're so big they don't fit in the fucking rail yards. 1208 01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:24,280 Speaker 1: Like they're so big that most the training infrastructure doesn't 1209 01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:27,519 Speaker 1: work for them. They are so everything is okay. They're 1210 01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,200 Speaker 1: they're really really really badly planned, despite the fact that 1211 01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:33,840 Speaker 1: this is supposed to be precision scheduled railroading. Like they're 1212 01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:37,160 Speaker 1: unbelievably badly planned. You have people just like being forced 1213 01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:39,639 Speaker 1: to just like sit there for twelve hours in a train, 1214 01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:42,120 Speaker 1: like waiting for the rest of like the other like 1215 01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:44,040 Speaker 1: ninety five cars that are supposed to be on this 1216 01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:46,519 Speaker 1: train to show up. You know. The whole situation just 1217 01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:48,280 Speaker 1: like it is utterly nightmares. And the ever thing about this, 1218 01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:50,280 Speaker 1: right is, if you're an engineer, right, and you're in 1219 01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:52,559 Speaker 1: one of these trains and you're sitting there for twelve 1220 01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,280 Speaker 1: fucking hours in this train, you legally can't have your 1221 01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:57,760 Speaker 1: phone because you know, I mean, this is a safety thing, right, 1222 01:10:57,760 --> 01:10:59,120 Speaker 1: And in some sense this makes sense. It's like a 1223 01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:01,640 Speaker 1: safety measure. You can't of your phone because you know, 1224 01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:03,240 Speaker 1: you can't be distracted what you're driving. But you're just 1225 01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:06,679 Speaker 1: sucking sitting on the tracks for like twelve hours, and 1226 01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:08,360 Speaker 1: you know this this this stuff is, you know, and 1227 01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:10,200 Speaker 1: the fact that the fact that people are on call constantly, 1228 01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:12,360 Speaker 1: the fact that the entire rail network is just physically 1229 01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:15,080 Speaker 1: falling apart because the other thing about these trains rise 1230 01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:16,680 Speaker 1: they make an enormous amount of money. None of them 1231 01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:18,800 Speaker 1: ever fucking show up on time. It's a disgaster. It's 1232 01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:21,240 Speaker 1: a catastrophe, like like like genuinely like part of the 1233 01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:23,639 Speaker 1: reason why we're having all these supply issues is that 1234 01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:26,080 Speaker 1: no train has fucking showed up on time in like 1235 01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:30,640 Speaker 1: four years. And it's a new contract. It's okay that 1236 01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:34,320 Speaker 1: the new contracts signed in says that workers can have 1237 01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:38,920 Speaker 1: up to three unpaid days off for medical appointments. Oh wow, 1238 01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:45,439 Speaker 1: that's something. It's a three unpaid tab stays off from 1239 01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:50,559 Speaker 1: pre made medical appointments. Yeah, none for whatever. Yeah. And 1240 01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:53,200 Speaker 1: again like like like these people are on call for 1241 01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:56,160 Speaker 1: pent of their lives. You can't even like like you 1242 01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:58,840 Speaker 1: can't schedule when you're going to sleep because you might 1243 01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:01,160 Speaker 1: be on call, and call might be you have to 1244 01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:05,360 Speaker 1: fucking like drive like several hours to a place so 1245 01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:07,400 Speaker 1: you can get on a train, and the train cannot leave, 1246 01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:09,479 Speaker 1: and the train eventually leaves like six hours later, and 1247 01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:11,320 Speaker 1: you fucking drive and then you're just like dropped off 1248 01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:13,840 Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle of nowhere and then unpaid, you 1249 01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,640 Speaker 1: have to go back to like where you live. It 1250 01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:20,120 Speaker 1: is like, like, Okay, the thing, the thing I wanted 1251 01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:25,360 Speaker 1: to get out of this is like the railroading system 1252 01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:27,920 Speaker 1: in general, that the system of freight railroading that we 1253 01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:30,440 Speaker 1: have in the US is in the midst of collapsing. 1254 01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:33,679 Speaker 1: Like it it is falling apart, It is not working, 1255 01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:37,639 Speaker 1: it is is becoming increasingly dangerous. It is I mean, 1256 01:12:37,760 --> 01:12:41,200 Speaker 1: utterly inhumane for the people working on it. And and 1257 01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:43,280 Speaker 1: you know, none of the fucking even this even the 1258 01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:46,240 Speaker 1: sick Bowl contract, like didn't do anything for it. Right, 1259 01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:48,680 Speaker 1: The only way this actually could have been resolved is 1260 01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:50,439 Speaker 1: if Joe Biden and in a fifth the Democrats and 1261 01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:52,680 Speaker 1: if Congress hadn't been fucking cowards and had let these 1262 01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:56,559 Speaker 1: people strike because these kinds of concessions like and you know, 1263 01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:58,559 Speaker 1: I also like, I don't want to let the fucking 1264 01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:00,559 Speaker 1: unions off the hook here to be because they know 1265 01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:02,880 Speaker 1: all of this. But again, most of the sort of 1266 01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:04,800 Speaker 1: like senior union people are very tight with a very 1267 01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:06,599 Speaker 1: tight with Democratic Party. This is part of why all 1268 01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:09,439 Speaker 1: of this ship was postponed till after the elections, because 1269 01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:11,200 Speaker 1: they didn't, you know, they didn't want to deal with 1270 01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:12,960 Speaker 1: this ship. They've been trying to force people to sign 1271 01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:15,800 Speaker 1: these contract too, and it's it's it's a ship show. 1272 01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:20,599 Speaker 1: It is a just absolute catastrophe on on every every level. Yeah. 1273 01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:24,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's almost as if the rail system probably 1274 01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:29,200 Speaker 1: shouldn't be run by private interests. Yeah, because there's going 1275 01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:33,240 Speaker 1: to be now a hundred hundred rail workers who are 1276 01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:36,439 Speaker 1: forced to work under these still not great conditions. Meanwhile, 1277 01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:39,320 Speaker 1: the managers and the owners of the railroads get to 1278 01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:42,439 Speaker 1: go back to just making tons of money. Yeah, and 1279 01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,559 Speaker 1: again record profits. None of this is happening. Not that 1280 01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:47,040 Speaker 1: that would make it okay, but none of this is 1281 01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:49,639 Speaker 1: happening in an environment well, well, you know, we're running 1282 01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:51,559 Speaker 1: at a loss, and we we have no money and 1283 01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:54,519 Speaker 1: no ability to like like they have. They're making hundreds 1284 01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:56,760 Speaker 1: of billions of dollars profits like this is this is 1285 01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:59,000 Speaker 1: like one of the most profitable times to run a railroad, 1286 01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:02,040 Speaker 1: and US can thence and devise more people to be 1287 01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:05,280 Speaker 1: railroad road workers if the job isn't a fucking nightmare. 1288 01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:08,080 Speaker 1: For example, what if instead of not being able to 1289 01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:10,960 Speaker 1: have their phones, we gave each of them a DVD 1290 01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:14,240 Speaker 1: player in a screen with a DVD of Step Brothers 1291 01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:16,280 Speaker 1: and they could watch step Brothers as much as they 1292 01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:18,679 Speaker 1: want while piloting a train. I think that would actually 1293 01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:22,400 Speaker 1: get I think that would cause mass mass layoff set 1294 01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:28,080 Speaker 1: a rail yard. That's that's how we get the strike. 1295 01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:31,559 Speaker 1: We include this in the next provision for destruction. I 1296 01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:35,240 Speaker 1: was I was stealthy in my accelerationist beliefs here. This 1297 01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:40,439 Speaker 1: is the fastest way he can transit infrastructure. He got 1298 01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:43,360 Speaker 1: like two years before this holding fucking implodes anyways, because 1299 01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:46,280 Speaker 1: part part of what's keeping people in the railroading system 1300 01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:49,960 Speaker 1: is that so railroading also has its own pension system 1301 01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:53,080 Speaker 1: that's like disconnected from the regular pension system, and you 1302 01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:54,800 Speaker 1: have to you have to work there for ten years 1303 01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:57,120 Speaker 1: in order to collector pension. This is why like enormous 1304 01:14:57,160 --> 01:15:00,240 Speaker 1: numbers of people just haven't left, right. People have been leaving, right, 1305 01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:02,880 Speaker 1: But there's a there's a huge number of people who 1306 01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:05,800 Speaker 1: were hiring these giant expansion in two thousand four, and 1307 01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:08,759 Speaker 1: you know, like we're two years out from that contract 1308 01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:10,200 Speaker 1: from from all these people being able to collect their 1309 01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:14,200 Speaker 1: pensions and fucking leaving. Yeah, that's it's like, this is 1310 01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:17,799 Speaker 1: the only chance I have to ever not work myself 1311 01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:21,080 Speaker 1: to death, so I have to tough it out. But yeah, yeah, 1312 01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:22,880 Speaker 1: but these those those people are those people are going 1313 01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:24,040 Speaker 1: to leave, and you know, this is this is the 1314 01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:26,240 Speaker 1: sort of like this is the sort of hammer that 1315 01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:29,040 Speaker 1: capitalism has built over its own head, which is that like, yeah, 1316 01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:33,280 Speaker 1: congratulations you you successfully flexibilized and casualized your entire workforce. 1317 01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:36,760 Speaker 1: That means that if people like don't want to do 1318 01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:39,719 Speaker 1: your shitty job, they can leave and find another job. 1319 01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:42,640 Speaker 1: And at some point, like there are there is a 1320 01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:45,080 Speaker 1: ship that in this economy that like actually does need 1321 01:15:45,120 --> 01:15:47,720 Speaker 1: to be done. But these people have been sort of 1322 01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:50,519 Speaker 1: like so blinded by just like you know, they're so 1323 01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:53,120 Speaker 1: so blinded by Lyne grow goes up. They're so blinded 1324 01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:56,600 Speaker 1: by short term profit that they really don't understand that 1325 01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:58,839 Speaker 1: at some point there's just not gonna be fucking workers 1326 01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,120 Speaker 1: to run the railroad. Yeah. I mean a lot of 1327 01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:04,439 Speaker 1: this situation is built off of and instead of being 1328 01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:06,920 Speaker 1: compared to Reagan's stuff for their traffic controllers, it's actually 1329 01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:09,640 Speaker 1: more similar to what Carter did with some with some 1330 01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:14,519 Speaker 1: airline workers. Um. Then also with the with the nineteen 1331 01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:19,240 Speaker 1: eight kind of a Railroad de Regulation act um which 1332 01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:21,280 Speaker 1: which caused would would you which gave a lot more 1333 01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:25,640 Speaker 1: power to companies to run the railroads. And that's that 1334 01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:28,880 Speaker 1: is what kind of shifted shifted things to our to 1335 01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:31,720 Speaker 1: our current, our current problem because they were they gave 1336 01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:34,920 Speaker 1: permission for these rail companies to close down lines that 1337 01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:39,000 Speaker 1: were less profitable and to set their own um freight rates. 1338 01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:42,679 Speaker 1: And it's it's not being controlled by the inter State 1339 01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:47,120 Speaker 1: Commerce Commission. Instead it's being controlled by execuity. That that 1340 01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:50,439 Speaker 1: thing's weird, right because like, on the one hand, like 1341 01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:53,160 Speaker 1: the wave of corporatesalidation that happened after that is like 1342 01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:55,200 Speaker 1: a disaster, and the fact that there's basically like four 1343 01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:58,160 Speaker 1: real like rail companies now is a disaster. On the 1344 01:16:58,200 --> 01:16:59,799 Speaker 1: other hand, like it is also true that the Interstate 1345 01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:04,559 Speaker 1: Common Board was like dogshitted his jaws, it also s yes, 1346 01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:06,920 Speaker 1: absolutely it sucked, and for a short period of time 1347 01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:12,599 Speaker 1: it actually did improve things. But now it's it's it's 1348 01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:16,560 Speaker 1: it's powers coalescing again into the very types of monopolies 1349 01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:22,040 Speaker 1: that caused the that caused railroad regulation to be necessary 1350 01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:24,799 Speaker 1: back in the nineteenth century. Like in the first place, 1351 01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:29,879 Speaker 1: um power is being consolidated again, and it's it's this vicious, 1352 01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:34,680 Speaker 1: vicious cycle that are that fundamentally puts short term profits 1353 01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:39,920 Speaker 1: above of the conditions of workers. Yeah, I think, like, 1354 01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:43,559 Speaker 1: you know, Okay, so there have been a lot of 1355 01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:45,760 Speaker 1: people talking about like what the potential solutions to this 1356 01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:50,679 Speaker 1: are in a sort of macro sense, because like, okay, 1357 01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:54,240 Speaker 1: even even even with a better contract, right, like, something 1358 01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:56,479 Speaker 1: actually has to be done in order to force the 1359 01:17:56,560 --> 01:18:00,400 Speaker 1: railroads to not fucking suck and to like actually properly 1360 01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:03,960 Speaker 1: scheduled our goddamn trains and not work if one to death. 1361 01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:06,960 Speaker 1: And you know, I want to put that it is 1362 01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:10,599 Speaker 1: worth noting like we actually did like have national nationalized 1363 01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:14,320 Speaker 1: railroad company for a while, and it was kind of 1364 01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:18,599 Speaker 1: a ship show like it. Okay, Okay, this is something 1365 01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:20,280 Speaker 1: that's also important. Think about this, Like there's a lot 1366 01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:23,080 Speaker 1: of like there's a lot of different kinds of nationalization, 1367 01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:26,920 Speaker 1: right Like there there there was a huge difference between 1368 01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:29,760 Speaker 1: a firm that's like like you know, like we we 1369 01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:32,439 Speaker 1: we we sort of technically nationalized a bunch of the 1370 01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:34,320 Speaker 1: like car companies after two thousand and eight, right we 1371 01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:37,040 Speaker 1: bailed them out, but you know, like we like when 1372 01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:38,720 Speaker 1: in that stuff, we didn't really like take it. We 1373 01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:40,960 Speaker 1: we owned, we owned like a bunch of their stock. 1374 01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:46,200 Speaker 1: We didn't like take a control and like we we 1375 01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:50,240 Speaker 1: got like Nick tonight, like proto neoliberal nationalization of the 1376 01:18:50,280 --> 01:18:52,479 Speaker 1: railroads last time, and it kind of contributed to the 1377 01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:55,479 Speaker 1: problems we have now. There was also a period where 1378 01:18:56,240 --> 01:19:00,919 Speaker 1: Conrail's union was trying to like buy like the railroad, 1379 01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:03,479 Speaker 1: so we all we almost we almost got a railroad 1380 01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:05,120 Speaker 1: system that was run by its but it was owned 1381 01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:07,559 Speaker 1: by its own union, and then the company just like 1382 01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:09,000 Speaker 1: refused to sell it to them because they were like 1383 01:19:09,040 --> 01:19:11,040 Speaker 1: waiting to hold on, we can't have a worker run railroad. 1384 01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:14,360 Speaker 1: But one thing, one thing I am interested in is 1385 01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:17,559 Speaker 1: I I don't actually know this. What would what would 1386 01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:20,920 Speaker 1: the how would how would an illegal strike actually work? Like, 1387 01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:25,400 Speaker 1: what's what's the how? What is the differences between people 1388 01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:29,000 Speaker 1: striking illegally? Now, like there's some some discussion of that, 1389 01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:31,400 Speaker 1: who knows that's actually actually happened, But what is the 1390 01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:35,280 Speaker 1: main kind of difference between that and um, the non 1391 01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:38,760 Speaker 1: illegal strow? Okay, so the big thing is okay, So 1392 01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:41,800 Speaker 1: the thing about the National Labor Relations Act, right, which 1393 01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:44,400 Speaker 1: is the thing that covers normal strikes, was that like 1394 01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:46,360 Speaker 1: and this is also true to see I sat under 1395 01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:48,080 Speaker 1: the room, but like, okay, so if you're doing a 1396 01:19:48,160 --> 01:19:51,840 Speaker 1: legal strike, you have legal protections, right, like there there 1397 01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:55,960 Speaker 1: are there are things corporations can't do to you. Um, 1398 01:19:56,160 --> 01:19:58,719 Speaker 1: like yeah, there there there's there's a bunch of stuff 1399 01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:02,080 Speaker 1: that can't Like I don't like it's it's it's a 1400 01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:04,519 Speaker 1: lot harder to just sort of fire people. The other 1401 01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:09,840 Speaker 1: thing is that also, like especially something like this, there's 1402 01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:15,080 Speaker 1: a like you you if you do if you do 1403 01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:17,360 Speaker 1: a wildcats trick like this and you you a specifically 1404 01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:20,120 Speaker 1: a strike that is like that is specifically illegal under 1405 01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:24,360 Speaker 1: this act, like you can all get fired. Um, I'm 1406 01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:27,320 Speaker 1: I think that I think they could technically arrest you. 1407 01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:29,880 Speaker 1: Like it It's it's I don't know that that part 1408 01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:34,120 Speaker 1: of it's not exactly clear to me, But yeah, I 1409 01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:37,800 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean there there's sort of like I 1410 01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:40,240 Speaker 1: feel like if if if they arrest you just for 1411 01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:42,360 Speaker 1: not going to your job, I feel like that is 1412 01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:47,000 Speaker 1: I mean that that has happened to people, Like I 1413 01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:52,799 Speaker 1: know people have been yes, like in the long history 1414 01:20:53,080 --> 01:20:57,160 Speaker 1: of labor struggles, people have been straight up killed. Um, 1415 01:20:57,200 --> 01:21:02,000 Speaker 1: but at least in you, I think it would be 1416 01:21:02,120 --> 01:21:06,559 Speaker 1: a bad look. Yeah, I mean I think Okay, So 1417 01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,040 Speaker 1: I mean I think where we're headed, and I think 1418 01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:12,040 Speaker 1: what they ought to do is just force get all 1419 01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:15,960 Speaker 1: of like the worst criminals, and I mean the murderers, 1420 01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:19,519 Speaker 1: the terrorists, all of those guys, and you make them 1421 01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:22,040 Speaker 1: run the trains. Whoever blew up all of those power 1422 01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:25,479 Speaker 1: transformers in North Carolina. You make them run the trains, 1423 01:21:25,880 --> 01:21:28,880 Speaker 1: and it'll be fine. Nothing bad will happen as a 1424 01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:33,120 Speaker 1: result of this. It'll work out perfectly well. The the 1425 01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:36,760 Speaker 1: the alternative plan and the thing that maybe these rail 1426 01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:39,479 Speaker 1: companies are just holding out for because maybe they're just 1427 01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:43,360 Speaker 1: making conditions be not great and underpaying and not giving 1428 01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:46,720 Speaker 1: sick days, is because they're waiting for trains just to 1429 01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:50,640 Speaker 1: become autonomous. They're already planning to severely cut down the 1430 01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:54,599 Speaker 1: crews that are on the trains. There's already trains in 1431 01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:59,400 Speaker 1: Australia that are a totally autonomously run that carry mining 1432 01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:04,640 Speaker 1: materials over for hundreds of miles, and that is the 1433 01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:07,439 Speaker 1: future that these that these companies want, because then they 1434 01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:10,080 Speaker 1: don't they need to pay for employees to actually run 1435 01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:14,200 Speaker 1: the train. Frustrating because like in an actual if we 1436 01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:17,000 Speaker 1: were an evening that approached a society that like dealt 1437 01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:21,800 Speaker 1: with things ethically and humanely, uh and equitably. Then this 1438 01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:24,680 Speaker 1: would be good, like because it seems like working on 1439 01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:26,680 Speaker 1: train sucks, and it would be great if we could 1440 01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:30,519 Speaker 1: automate most of that work. Uh, and then people less 1441 01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:33,320 Speaker 1: people would have to work in order to keep society running. 1442 01:22:33,320 --> 01:22:38,080 Speaker 1: But that's people don't have to work. We're just going 1443 01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:41,000 Speaker 1: to run through these people's bodies by like as we 1444 01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:44,639 Speaker 1: get up to autonomy automization, and then we will throw 1445 01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:47,280 Speaker 1: them away. Yeah, and then they will and then because 1446 01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:49,880 Speaker 1: they'll do it badly, there's going to be a disastrous 1447 01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:51,880 Speaker 1: train crash caused by the fact that they got all 1448 01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:54,240 Speaker 1: of the people off of a train hauling nitro glycerin 1449 01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:56,840 Speaker 1: or whatever, and it's going to destroy I don't know, 1450 01:22:57,000 --> 01:23:00,719 Speaker 1: duluth um, which you know, not the worst to lose, 1451 01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:04,679 Speaker 1: but I I sorry to Luke. Y'all are fucked well, okay, 1452 01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:06,960 Speaker 1: it's it's worth meesying. Like this stuff, like the automation 1453 01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:09,640 Speaker 1: stuff is already happening right like that we have right 1454 01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:11,559 Speaker 1: we have like this well and I mean it's like 1455 01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:13,559 Speaker 1: a very real sense that there's this sort of nightmare. 1456 01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:15,000 Speaker 1: Is one of the other sort of nightmare things that's 1457 01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,360 Speaker 1: going on right now, is that there are these like 1458 01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:21,200 Speaker 1: like I don't know, like driver assistance programs basically that 1459 01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:24,120 Speaker 1: are being run on trains. Now, where that are that are? 1460 01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:26,480 Speaker 1: You know that they're supposed to be like making decisions 1461 01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:30,120 Speaker 1: like for and with the drivers, but ay, they suck 1462 01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:33,560 Speaker 1: ass um be there. They're they're design. They're designed to 1463 01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:37,200 Speaker 1: basically maximize design to maximize profitability, right, And the way 1464 01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:40,080 Speaker 1: you maximize profitability is by running trains really really slowly, 1465 01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:43,040 Speaker 1: and you know that's contributing to the fact that every 1466 01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:45,400 Speaker 1: train is fucking late now and the phrases that doesn't work. 1467 01:23:45,479 --> 01:23:47,200 Speaker 1: And the third problem is that these is that these 1468 01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:50,320 Speaker 1: things keep fucking running trains off Like this is another 1469 01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:52,280 Speaker 1: reason why trains keep sucking crashing is that they suck. 1470 01:23:52,479 --> 01:23:54,519 Speaker 1: They keep they keep running trains off the tracks, and 1471 01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:56,960 Speaker 1: like you know and like that there's there's there's like 1472 01:23:56,960 --> 01:23:59,200 Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of ship here, right because it's 1473 01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:03,479 Speaker 1: like if you if you override the system, like you 1474 01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:07,280 Speaker 1: can you can get disciplined for for for overwriting the system. 1475 01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:09,040 Speaker 1: But then you have this sort of like you have 1476 01:24:09,080 --> 01:24:10,640 Speaker 1: this thing where it's like okay, so do I do 1477 01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:12,880 Speaker 1: I get disciplined for overriding system and not making the 1478 01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:14,840 Speaker 1: train crash, or do I just make the fucking train 1479 01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:19,800 Speaker 1: crash and doing the trolley problem? Yeah yeah, it's literally yeah, 1480 01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:25,200 Speaker 1: just like you love that this is just gonna inevitably 1481 01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:28,120 Speaker 1: gonna result in an exact recreation of the trolley proffle. 1482 01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:30,000 Speaker 1: It's already like this is already happening to people, and 1483 01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:32,400 Speaker 1: it's just like like it's none of the none of 1484 01:24:32,479 --> 01:24:36,719 Speaker 1: the stuff works automatic into this orphanage. I can divert 1485 01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:39,360 Speaker 1: it instead of this old folks. So it's like it's 1486 01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:42,920 Speaker 1: literally happening, like it's just like none of this stuff, Like, Okay. 1487 01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:45,559 Speaker 1: The thing that's like frustrating about this, right is okay, 1488 01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:48,320 Speaker 1: if any of the people at the sort of like 1489 01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:50,720 Speaker 1: at the level of where they're planning these trains could 1490 01:24:50,840 --> 01:24:53,439 Speaker 1: even sort of do their job right that this isn't 1491 01:24:53,479 --> 01:24:56,439 Speaker 1: even a thing that's like an inevitable contradiction between capital 1492 01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:59,680 Speaker 1: and labor. Like this is just if any of these 1493 01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:03,160 Speaker 1: people could actually fucking schedule the railroads, which is the 1494 01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:04,800 Speaker 1: thing they're supposed to be trying to do. If they 1495 01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:07,519 Speaker 1: could actually schedule when the train was supposed to go 1496 01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:09,599 Speaker 1: and when it was supposed to leave, you wouldn't have 1497 01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:11,960 Speaker 1: these problems because then all of the people who worked 1498 01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:14,760 Speaker 1: there would also be told when the fucking train was 1499 01:25:14,840 --> 01:25:17,120 Speaker 1: leaving and they could schedule around it. But no, they 1500 01:25:17,160 --> 01:25:19,360 Speaker 1: can't fucking do it because they're too fucking lazy, they're 1501 01:25:19,360 --> 01:25:21,160 Speaker 1: too fucking stupid, and they don't want to spend the 1502 01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:23,400 Speaker 1: money to actually make any of these systems fucking work, 1503 01:25:23,880 --> 01:25:26,080 Speaker 1: And so the consequence is just this bullshit. And then 1504 01:25:26,120 --> 01:25:28,960 Speaker 1: also because again and this is everything like that, like 1505 01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:31,639 Speaker 1: capital is also really falling down on the job here, 1506 01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:34,240 Speaker 1: because like the rest of capital needs to get their 1507 01:25:34,240 --> 01:25:36,320 Speaker 1: ship together and force the railroad to do something, because like, 1508 01:25:36,600 --> 01:25:38,599 Speaker 1: it's your asses on the line too, if this railroad 1509 01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:41,840 Speaker 1: then collapses. But because of because of the sort of 1510 01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:45,200 Speaker 1: immediate amount of money that that that these these shitty 1511 01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:47,120 Speaker 1: rail companies that pumped into Congress, they were able to 1512 01:25:47,160 --> 01:25:49,800 Speaker 1: buy people off, and the rest of capital was just like, yeah, 1513 01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:51,760 Speaker 1: we don't care. That's like three years out, we don't 1514 01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:54,040 Speaker 1: have to care about this ship. It's like guys like 1515 01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:57,360 Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders is fighting to save capitalism, right, These people 1516 01:25:57,400 --> 01:26:00,479 Speaker 1: are trying to save you from yourselves, and you know 1517 01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:03,320 Speaker 1: you won't won't even let That's that's their entire job, 1518 01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:08,240 Speaker 1: though of course it's like, yeah, what what what is 1519 01:26:08,280 --> 01:26:11,280 Speaker 1: happening here? Is that like is liberalism is running an 1520 01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:14,880 Speaker 1: acceleration is program to like cause the American American infrastructure 1521 01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:17,320 Speaker 1: to fall apart, and social democracy is attempting to save 1522 01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:20,880 Speaker 1: capital from itself, and capital was like literally fuck you 1523 01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:25,160 Speaker 1: eat ship. No, it's it's i've i've. I'm reading right 1524 01:26:25,160 --> 01:26:29,280 Speaker 1: now in interview with a railroad Workers United member and 1525 01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:32,400 Speaker 1: they're they're talking about how like there's this plan to increase, 1526 01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:37,880 Speaker 1: uh increase their pay over the next five years, and 1527 01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:41,599 Speaker 1: he's there, like he says that lots of the railroad 1528 01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:44,439 Speaker 1: workers that he's talked to as a part of the 1529 01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:48,000 Speaker 1: union is saying, like people are willing to work for 1530 01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:50,519 Speaker 1: less money and take a job at like an Amazon 1531 01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:53,719 Speaker 1: factory or like a trucking job because at least those 1532 01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:57,400 Speaker 1: offer slightly more consistent hours, and like, yeah, like it's 1533 01:26:57,439 --> 01:27:00,920 Speaker 1: it's at least you when you're not working, you're not working. Yeah, 1534 01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:02,840 Speaker 1: And I just wanted to mention that because because we 1535 01:27:02,840 --> 01:27:04,920 Speaker 1: were bringing up like how these people are getting not 1536 01:27:05,040 --> 01:27:07,160 Speaker 1: very good pay, which is which is true, but for 1537 01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:09,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people it isn't even just to pay 1538 01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:13,599 Speaker 1: question it's it's it's just overall working conditions and like 1539 01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:16,800 Speaker 1: when you're thinking about moving to an Amazon factory instead 1540 01:27:16,840 --> 01:27:21,439 Speaker 1: because they have better working conditions, like oh god, yeah, 1541 01:27:21,439 --> 01:27:27,760 Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, they've they've managed to create like 1542 01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:30,800 Speaker 1: one of the worst systems that is imposed on like 1543 01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:34,120 Speaker 1: any worker in the country. Like it is. It is 1544 01:27:34,400 --> 01:27:38,639 Speaker 1: genuinely stunning. And right now again they're they're getting bailed 1545 01:27:38,680 --> 01:27:40,439 Speaker 1: out that people are by the fact that people are 1546 01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:44,000 Speaker 1: stuck in because they want their pensions. But like, but 1547 01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:46,240 Speaker 1: as soon as a people are done and we start 1548 01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:48,200 Speaker 1: moving to more autonomous things, then it's not it's not 1549 01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:50,640 Speaker 1: going to be worth it. I know, media companies have 1550 01:27:50,720 --> 01:27:53,559 Speaker 1: spent decades trying to convince kids to work for trains, 1551 01:27:53,560 --> 01:27:56,679 Speaker 1: with Thomas the Train chuggington for for decades and decades, 1552 01:27:56,720 --> 01:27:59,720 Speaker 1: you've tried to send train propaganda to these kids, and 1553 01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:02,200 Speaker 1: I I don't think I don't think they're gonna buy it. Yeah, 1554 01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:05,080 Speaker 1: did you guys know that in Thomas the Tank Engine, 1555 01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:08,640 Speaker 1: canonically World War Two happened and canonically all of the 1556 01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:15,240 Speaker 1: diesel engine signed sided with the Nazis. Well, that doesn't 1557 01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,760 Speaker 1: first today and that is official. Thomas the Tank in 1558 01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:24,960 Speaker 1: Jin Laura. I wonder how many other zoomers will um 1559 01:28:25,240 --> 01:28:27,800 Speaker 1: symbolize with me on this. I recently found out that 1560 01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:32,040 Speaker 1: Thomas the Train wasn't just the uncanny train segments that 1561 01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:34,800 Speaker 1: used to have live action actors in like little inter 1562 01:28:34,920 --> 01:28:40,720 Speaker 1: cut scenes, because it was fucked up because by the 1563 01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:43,320 Speaker 1: time Thomas the Train was airing on television when I 1564 01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:45,800 Speaker 1: was a kid, all of those were re edited. They 1565 01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:48,840 Speaker 1: had they had, they had no live actions segments at all. 1566 01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:51,920 Speaker 1: It was all the weird stop motion animation, which is 1567 01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:54,479 Speaker 1: still very uncanny, with like the faces. But I had 1568 01:28:54,479 --> 01:28:56,280 Speaker 1: no idea until like a year ago that there was 1569 01:28:56,320 --> 01:28:59,519 Speaker 1: live action actors in the original additions of Thomas the Train. 1570 01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:03,800 Speaker 1: Fletely oblivious. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad we could have 1571 01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:07,840 Speaker 1: this important union discussion. I am too. I'm gonna I'm 1572 01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:10,240 Speaker 1: gonna admit to you all right now. There was a 1573 01:29:10,280 --> 01:29:13,280 Speaker 1: moment earlier where Chris You kept saying that that the 1574 01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:16,599 Speaker 1: owners of the railroads were blinded, and I very nearly 1575 01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:18,840 Speaker 1: went into a bit where I just started reading the 1576 01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:21,960 Speaker 1: lyrics to Bruce Springsteen's Blinded by the Light. But I 1577 01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:25,519 Speaker 1: didn't do it. I didn't do it that I'm glad 1578 01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:29,080 Speaker 1: we were saved from that. That's that's that's because everybody, nobody, 1579 01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:31,559 Speaker 1: nobody gets the lyrics to that one, right because of 1580 01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:34,439 Speaker 1: the Manford Man's earth band version, which makes it sound 1581 01:29:34,439 --> 01:29:37,479 Speaker 1: like he's saying douche when he's really saying deuce and 1582 01:29:37,560 --> 01:29:39,880 Speaker 1: talking about an engine, which is why it would have 1583 01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:42,760 Speaker 1: been relevant to railroads. But none of you all would 1584 01:29:42,760 --> 01:29:45,320 Speaker 1: have gotten that, and you would have fucking made a 1585 01:29:45,360 --> 01:29:48,040 Speaker 1: big thing about it on Reddit. So to hell with 1586 01:29:48,080 --> 01:29:52,599 Speaker 1: you all. Anyway, support rail workers if they do an 1587 01:29:52,600 --> 01:29:54,800 Speaker 1: illegal strike, make sure we set up things so that 1588 01:29:54,880 --> 01:29:58,680 Speaker 1: they get protected and they get food and things to 1589 01:29:58,960 --> 01:30:04,400 Speaker 1: fight cops, go make rail way. I mean, people like, 1590 01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:06,840 Speaker 1: just keep it, keep an eye on what's going on, 1591 01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:09,800 Speaker 1: and if it happens, there will be ways. There will 1592 01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:13,160 Speaker 1: be ways to support these through the US government, Like 1593 01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:15,360 Speaker 1: I don't know things of this nature. Yeah, I mean 1594 01:30:15,360 --> 01:30:17,760 Speaker 1: that would be that, that would be nice. But if 1595 01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:19,800 Speaker 1: we got to put a pin in that, you know, 1596 01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:22,320 Speaker 1: keep an eye on the situation and if these people 1597 01:30:22,360 --> 01:30:25,360 Speaker 1: go on strike, there will be community resources and whatnot 1598 01:30:25,439 --> 01:30:28,559 Speaker 1: popping up to support the wildcat strike. It's the thing 1599 01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:31,560 Speaker 1: that's happened before. Wildcat strikes have a long history in 1600 01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:34,880 Speaker 1: this country too, um, you know, and we will we 1601 01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:38,200 Speaker 1: will be collecting resources if that happens, for ways people 1602 01:30:38,240 --> 01:30:41,240 Speaker 1: can help with the wildcatters. So this is a thing 1603 01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:44,479 Speaker 1: to have on the old, on the old noggain as 1604 01:30:44,520 --> 01:30:49,240 Speaker 1: we as we lurch forward into the holidays and uh 1605 01:30:49,640 --> 01:30:55,080 Speaker 1: possibly gigantic labor battle we'll see. And I like people 1606 01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:58,280 Speaker 1: in the UK have been doing rail strikes, uh like 1607 01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:01,960 Speaker 1: for a good part of this year, like they've been, 1608 01:31:01,960 --> 01:31:04,479 Speaker 1: they've been. There's been on and off rail strikes for 1609 01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:06,600 Speaker 1: most of for like, for like the most of the 1610 01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:11,360 Speaker 1: past few months. Um, it's possible, except again they're they're 1611 01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:13,400 Speaker 1: they're they're British, so they stopped doing the strike when 1612 01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:19,519 Speaker 1: the queen died. Well of course, so look, look there's 1613 01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:24,200 Speaker 1: certain realities that can't ever be a clipstograph. Here's the 1614 01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:26,600 Speaker 1: here's the thing. We have thrown off the shackles of 1615 01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:29,680 Speaker 1: the anglos are where a rail strikes stops for no one, 1616 01:31:31,080 --> 01:31:34,960 Speaker 1: al right except for the most pro labor president, Joe Biden. Alright, 1617 01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:37,880 Speaker 1: And that's the episode. It's the episode. And remember, if 1618 01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:41,320 Speaker 1: you see a diesel train, it is a Nazi. You 1619 01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:58,880 Speaker 1: you were obliged to punch it. Welcome to Dake bap 1620 01:31:59,000 --> 01:32:03,679 Speaker 1: in here a podcast at it happening somewhere else, you know. Okay, 1621 01:32:04,120 --> 01:32:07,040 Speaker 1: the theme, the theme of the show has gone slightly 1622 01:32:07,840 --> 01:32:11,200 Speaker 1: slightly off the rails since it was first conceived. However, Comma, 1623 01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:14,920 Speaker 1: I do think this is something that is very important 1624 01:32:14,920 --> 01:32:17,960 Speaker 1: to talk about, which is getting some more sort of 1625 01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:23,200 Speaker 1: background information and an understanding of what the history of 1626 01:32:23,280 --> 01:32:25,479 Speaker 1: sort of labor in general protest is in China as 1627 01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:28,120 Speaker 1: we look at a certain the sort of current protest 1628 01:32:28,200 --> 01:32:30,880 Speaker 1: wave that is going on there. And with me to 1629 01:32:30,920 --> 01:32:33,479 Speaker 1: talk about this is Eli Friedman, who teaches at Cornell 1630 01:32:33,600 --> 01:32:36,680 Speaker 1: University and is the author of the book The Urbanization 1631 01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:39,839 Speaker 1: of People, The Politics of Development, Labor, markets, and Schooling 1632 01:32:39,880 --> 01:32:42,240 Speaker 1: in the Chinese City. So, Eli, welcome to the show. 1633 01:32:43,040 --> 01:32:45,960 Speaker 1: It's good to be here. Yeah. So I'm excited to 1634 01:32:46,040 --> 01:32:53,240 Speaker 1: talk with you about this um partially because I think, Okay, 1635 01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:59,439 Speaker 1: so insofar as you've gotten sort of mainstream coverage of it, 1636 01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:03,000 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of focus UM in term in 1637 01:33:03,080 --> 01:33:04,680 Speaker 1: terms of this sort of current way of protests, There's 1638 01:33:04,720 --> 01:33:07,559 Speaker 1: been a lot of focus on like the A four 1639 01:33:07,640 --> 01:33:13,000 Speaker 1: paper stuff and people sort of you know, hanging signs, up, 1640 01:33:13,160 --> 01:33:15,960 Speaker 1: and as as the coverage has gone on, there's been 1641 01:33:16,880 --> 01:33:20,080 Speaker 1: a lot less about the fox con stuff. There's been 1642 01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:23,519 Speaker 1: a lot less about the broader trajectory of what protests 1643 01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:25,400 Speaker 1: has looked like in China in the last twenty years, 1644 01:33:26,040 --> 01:33:29,120 Speaker 1: as everyone sort of like immediately reaches back for their 1645 01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:35,479 Speaker 1: stock tienem in comparisons. I think you're very good. Yeah, yeah, 1646 01:33:36,120 --> 01:33:40,599 Speaker 1: So I guess I guess we could in some sense 1647 01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:42,880 Speaker 1: start with genomen because I think this is this is 1648 01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:47,639 Speaker 1: has nothing really to do with it. But I guess 1649 01:33:47,720 --> 01:33:50,840 Speaker 1: we could start with why why are the chan in 1650 01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:55,000 Speaker 1: comparisons bad? And why is everyone still reaching for them 1651 01:33:55,400 --> 01:34:00,760 Speaker 1: thirty years later? Yeah, I mean they're there's maybe a 1652 01:34:00,840 --> 01:34:07,080 Speaker 1: couple of reasons why. So. Um, the the the unsympathetic 1653 01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:09,160 Speaker 1: take on it is that you have a lot of 1654 01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:12,960 Speaker 1: people outside of China, particularly in the United States, who 1655 01:34:13,640 --> 01:34:16,840 Speaker 1: hope for things to go poorly in China as part 1656 01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:22,920 Speaker 1: of our imperial competition. And so UH was a bad 1657 01:34:23,040 --> 01:34:26,320 Speaker 1: year for China, whichever side of of that movement you 1658 01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:30,799 Speaker 1: you were on UH, and so they believe that it heralds, 1659 01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:33,000 Speaker 1: you know, that the downfall of the Communist Party, and 1660 01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:36,080 Speaker 1: you know, therefore America can march into the rest of 1661 01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:39,880 Speaker 1: the century without any real competitors, so that that is 1662 01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:43,280 Speaker 1: a real thing, right um. And that I think the 1663 01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:49,559 Speaker 1: somewhat more sympathetic take on this is that the Chinese government, 1664 01:34:49,640 --> 01:34:54,479 Speaker 1: and particularly under Stigent Ping, sets a ridiculously high standard 1665 01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:59,880 Speaker 1: for what qualifies as social stability. Right. So minor d 1666 01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:06,040 Speaker 1: deviations from um absolute harmony as conceived of by this state, 1667 01:35:06,160 --> 01:35:09,160 Speaker 1: which means you know, no street protests, it means relatively 1668 01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:12,000 Speaker 1: little descent online. And to the extent that you do 1669 01:35:12,200 --> 01:35:15,439 Speaker 1: see forms of collective action, they remain pretty small scale 1670 01:35:15,840 --> 01:35:19,600 Speaker 1: and fractured um. And so when you see deviations from that, 1671 01:35:19,760 --> 01:35:22,960 Speaker 1: that suggests that, well, they've kind of lost control because 1672 01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:26,759 Speaker 1: they do want to maintain this, you know, absolute image 1673 01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:31,080 Speaker 1: of placidity um. And if we look at the whole 1674 01:35:31,320 --> 01:35:34,680 Speaker 1: sequence of events that led up to where we are now, 1675 01:35:35,520 --> 01:35:38,519 Speaker 1: I think we have to trace it back. Well, there's 1676 01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:40,680 Speaker 1: a bunch of things, but one of them is the 1677 01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:45,320 Speaker 1: setone bridge protest um, which is just a single person 1678 01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:49,000 Speaker 1: hanging banners off a bridge in Beijing, um, and a 1679 01:35:49,080 --> 01:35:53,960 Speaker 1: single person hanging banners or holding signs in any other 1680 01:35:54,479 --> 01:35:57,000 Speaker 1: big city around the world does not create that kind 1681 01:35:57,120 --> 01:36:00,200 Speaker 1: of a stir, right. I mean, you know, you you're 1682 01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:02,880 Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. Or Or you're in Berlin or 1683 01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:05,720 Speaker 1: or Tokyo or whatever. You know, nobody cares, right, so 1684 01:36:06,200 --> 01:36:07,880 Speaker 1: that but that just shows a little bit of a 1685 01:36:07,960 --> 01:36:09,920 Speaker 1: crack in the system, and so then people let their 1686 01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:15,000 Speaker 1: imaginations kind of run wild. Um. And we're clearly not 1687 01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:19,320 Speaker 1: in a nine situation right now. It's not inconceivable that 1688 01:36:19,439 --> 01:36:22,280 Speaker 1: it would develop in that way in the future. Um. 1689 01:36:22,640 --> 01:36:25,280 Speaker 1: At the same time, I don't think it's particularly likely 1690 01:36:25,400 --> 01:36:27,120 Speaker 1: for for all sorts of reasons. And we can get 1691 01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:30,560 Speaker 1: into that if you want. Yeah, I mean one of 1692 01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:35,120 Speaker 1: the things that I think, I don't know one of 1693 01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:37,919 Speaker 1: the things that I've been looking at with these protests 1694 01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:42,360 Speaker 1: versus eight nine. I partially it's just the sort of 1695 01:36:42,400 --> 01:36:45,479 Speaker 1: class composition is just very very different. Like there are 1696 01:36:45,560 --> 01:36:48,360 Speaker 1: student protests, but it's it's they're like these these the 1697 01:36:48,360 --> 01:36:51,560 Speaker 1: students now, like are not the nine nine students, Like 1698 01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:53,280 Speaker 1: this is just if this is a very different sort 1699 01:36:53,320 --> 01:36:55,920 Speaker 1: of like it's's very different student body. It's a very 1700 01:36:55,960 --> 01:36:59,160 Speaker 1: different like the class competition of those people are different. 1701 01:36:59,240 --> 01:37:01,800 Speaker 1: The experience that they've had in the Chinese system is 1702 01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:05,280 Speaker 1: very different, and then also, I think someone more interestingly 1703 01:37:05,479 --> 01:37:08,080 Speaker 1: is like, it's it's not the same working class that 1704 01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:11,960 Speaker 1: showed up in because that class doesn't really exist anymore. 1705 01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:16,400 Speaker 1: And yeah, and I guess that that's another part of 1706 01:37:16,800 --> 01:37:19,679 Speaker 1: this that I think, I don't know. There is definitely 1707 01:37:19,720 --> 01:37:21,960 Speaker 1: extent to which these protests are weird, in that it 1708 01:37:22,160 --> 01:37:25,439 Speaker 1: is like it's it's it's it's a bunch of people 1709 01:37:25,479 --> 01:37:27,640 Speaker 1: in different places who are protesting about the same thing 1710 01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:30,840 Speaker 1: which hasn't which you know, hasn't really happened for a 1711 01:37:30,920 --> 01:37:34,479 Speaker 1: long time. But also like I don't know, there seems 1712 01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:36,080 Speaker 1: to be this reluctance to talk about the fact that 1713 01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:39,880 Speaker 1: there have been like not in significant protests in the 1714 01:37:39,960 --> 01:37:42,200 Speaker 1: last thirty years, like especially in the nineties, there are 1715 01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:46,120 Speaker 1: these huge protests against sort of like the industrialization, like 1716 01:37:46,160 --> 01:37:49,120 Speaker 1: the destruction of sort of the Chinese welfare system. And 1717 01:37:49,720 --> 01:37:53,120 Speaker 1: I guess one of the things I'm interested, I don't 1718 01:37:53,160 --> 01:37:57,240 Speaker 1: know it asking you more about is like there's there's 1719 01:37:57,240 --> 01:38:03,320 Speaker 1: a kind of jectory of what urban sort of protest 1720 01:38:03,360 --> 01:38:06,800 Speaker 1: has looked like and like as as as the sort 1721 01:38:06,840 --> 01:38:10,040 Speaker 1: of like as the Chinese working classes like increasingly become 1722 01:38:10,479 --> 01:38:13,400 Speaker 1: a sort of vigrant working class and so yeah, I 1723 01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:16,960 Speaker 1: guess we could jump off from there to also also 1724 01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:18,840 Speaker 1: I guess because that's the other thing is like Chinese 1725 01:38:18,840 --> 01:38:21,720 Speaker 1: cities are very different now than they were thirty years ago, 1726 01:38:21,760 --> 01:38:23,760 Speaker 1: which is the thing that is both incredibly obvious and 1727 01:38:23,920 --> 01:38:31,679 Speaker 1: also like people don't really seem to understand very well. Yeah, 1728 01:38:32,200 --> 01:38:33,640 Speaker 1: let's see, there's a lot in that question. Maybe we 1729 01:38:33,680 --> 01:38:37,080 Speaker 1: should circle back around to the question of the class 1730 01:38:37,120 --> 01:38:41,320 Speaker 1: composition of the students and the workers today in comparison 1731 01:38:41,360 --> 01:38:43,280 Speaker 1: to nineteen eighty nine. But first let's just talk a 1732 01:38:43,320 --> 01:38:46,000 Speaker 1: little bit about the sequence of labor protests over the past. 1733 01:38:46,360 --> 01:38:50,559 Speaker 1: And there is a lot of me going through stuff there. Yeah, 1734 01:38:50,600 --> 01:38:55,200 Speaker 1: I mean, all all really important insights um, each deserving 1735 01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:57,360 Speaker 1: a little bit of their own attention. So you know, 1736 01:38:57,520 --> 01:39:02,639 Speaker 1: after nine, Uh, there's this big divergence in the UM 1737 01:39:03,320 --> 01:39:06,200 Speaker 1: in in the opportunities that are afforded to the two 1738 01:39:06,320 --> 01:39:09,599 Speaker 1: constituent groups that were in Tanneman Square and other places 1739 01:39:09,680 --> 01:39:12,040 Speaker 1: around China. So you have the students and you have 1740 01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:14,080 Speaker 1: the workers, right, and there's there's other people, but like 1741 01:39:14,160 --> 01:39:18,120 Speaker 1: that's the sort of the social backbone of that movement. Uh. 1742 01:39:18,200 --> 01:39:21,679 Speaker 1: The students basically get this deal with the state, which 1743 01:39:21,920 --> 01:39:26,320 Speaker 1: is they demand compliance and political acquiescence in exchange for 1744 01:39:26,479 --> 01:39:31,200 Speaker 1: which they will enjoy a couple of generation, a couple 1745 01:39:31,280 --> 01:39:35,120 Speaker 1: of decades of unbelievably fast growth. And if you are 1746 01:39:35,160 --> 01:39:38,920 Speaker 1: graduating with a degree from one of these elite universities 1747 01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:41,840 Speaker 1: in Beijing or even not super elite universities and in 1748 01:39:41,920 --> 01:39:43,840 Speaker 1: other cities, there's a pretty good chance that you're going 1749 01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:46,400 Speaker 1: to experience upwards social mobility, that you'll be able to 1750 01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:48,840 Speaker 1: buy an apartment that you know, you will feel more 1751 01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:52,720 Speaker 1: materially secure than was the case for your parents, right, UM, 1752 01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:55,479 Speaker 1: I think that that deal is coming undone right now, 1753 01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:59,080 Speaker 1: which explains the students that we say out in the street, UM, 1754 01:39:59,280 --> 01:40:01,120 Speaker 1: but in any of and that that certainly was the 1755 01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:04,920 Speaker 1: case for for you know, for about thirty years after UM, 1756 01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:07,879 Speaker 1: or at least you know, twenty five years after after tenement. 1757 01:40:08,320 --> 01:40:11,200 Speaker 1: The workers who were in the square in nineteen nine 1758 01:40:11,479 --> 01:40:18,080 Speaker 1: had almost diametrically opposed social trajectory because immediately thereafter UH 1759 01:40:18,280 --> 01:40:22,320 Speaker 1: they were subjected to a brutal regime of privatization, of dispossession, 1760 01:40:22,439 --> 01:40:25,280 Speaker 1: of theft of public property. They were thrown out of 1761 01:40:25,439 --> 01:40:27,680 Speaker 1: these jobs that they had believed they were going to 1762 01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:30,800 Speaker 1: have forever. It was called the Iron Rice bul Um. 1763 01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:33,240 Speaker 1: One of the main architects of that was Johnsman, who's 1764 01:40:33,240 --> 01:40:35,920 Speaker 1: just died. He along with Drew g So I saw. 1765 01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:38,439 Speaker 1: I saw a great quote where someone was like, this 1766 01:40:38,560 --> 01:40:41,120 Speaker 1: is basically China, George W. Bush, where everyone's remember again 1767 01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:43,479 Speaker 1: fondly because things are so bad now. But oh my god, 1768 01:40:43,600 --> 01:40:47,040 Speaker 1: this guy was awful, Like dying dying right now is 1769 01:40:47,080 --> 01:40:50,479 Speaker 1: maybe the best thing he ever did. Like yeah, and 1770 01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:54,040 Speaker 1: it really is a testament to how bad things are now. 1771 01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:58,519 Speaker 1: But he is I think, um, the most neoliberal anyway 1772 01:40:58,560 --> 01:41:01,200 Speaker 1: of China's leaders, more so than than dung shopping in 1773 01:41:01,320 --> 01:41:04,479 Speaker 1: some important ways. Uh. And so you know that old 1774 01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:06,799 Speaker 1: working class who was told that they were the masters 1775 01:41:06,920 --> 01:41:09,560 Speaker 1: of the nation, um, you know under Jungs them in 1776 01:41:09,600 --> 01:41:12,880 Speaker 1: front in the late nineties, they were just they were 1777 01:41:12,920 --> 01:41:16,240 Speaker 1: just subjected to these real subsistence crises. And in response 1778 01:41:16,320 --> 01:41:20,280 Speaker 1: to that, actually the largest mobilizations to have happened since 1779 01:41:20,400 --> 01:41:23,600 Speaker 1: nineteen nine occurred in the like nineties and really the 1780 01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:26,080 Speaker 1: early two thousands. In some cases, you have these protest 1781 01:41:26,160 --> 01:41:28,320 Speaker 1: movements with many tens of thousands of people out on 1782 01:41:28,360 --> 01:41:32,280 Speaker 1: the street resisting privatization, resisting the theft of their pensions, 1783 01:41:32,920 --> 01:41:36,400 Speaker 1: um and and basically this you know, private profiteering and 1784 01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:40,600 Speaker 1: theft of public property. And I think that even the 1785 01:41:40,640 --> 01:41:43,439 Speaker 1: protests that we've seen in the last a week or 1786 01:41:43,479 --> 01:41:45,960 Speaker 1: two are are still not on the scale of those 1787 01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:50,360 Speaker 1: worker uprisings that we saw twenty years ago. Yeah, which 1788 01:41:50,360 --> 01:41:52,840 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, like part part of the reason 1789 01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:54,639 Speaker 1: why we are where we are now is that those 1790 01:41:54,640 --> 01:41:56,760 Speaker 1: people lost. And I think that's been one of the 1791 01:41:56,840 --> 01:42:00,320 Speaker 1: other sort of themes of like Chinese protests. Lie. I mean, 1792 01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:02,240 Speaker 1: I think like like some some of the local ones 1793 01:42:03,160 --> 01:42:06,040 Speaker 1: like when, but the large scale ones have kind of 1794 01:42:06,160 --> 01:42:10,120 Speaker 1: just been like just like really just been getting owned 1795 01:42:10,200 --> 01:42:13,880 Speaker 1: for the last like twenty really like thirty years. Like 1796 01:42:14,000 --> 01:42:19,640 Speaker 1: it's it's been kind of a bleak march. And I mean, 1797 01:42:19,720 --> 01:42:22,040 Speaker 1: I actually I want to circle back around a bit, 1798 01:42:22,160 --> 01:42:24,160 Speaker 1: talk a bit more about the d industrialization, because I 1799 01:42:24,160 --> 01:42:28,120 Speaker 1: think this is a thing that like really is badly understood, 1800 01:42:28,240 --> 01:42:31,840 Speaker 1: especially on the left. Um. The other thing I wanted 1801 01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:34,400 Speaker 1: to talk about in that is, Okay, so you have 1802 01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:37,519 Speaker 1: this massive wave of privatization, you have this industrialization, and 1803 01:42:37,560 --> 01:42:39,280 Speaker 1: can we talk a little bit of also about how 1804 01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:42,040 Speaker 1: like for the people for the people who held on 1805 01:42:42,200 --> 01:42:45,200 Speaker 1: and say on the industries, what the transformations happen inside 1806 01:42:45,240 --> 01:42:50,280 Speaker 1: there was like because I think that's also like not understood. Well, yeah, 1807 01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:56,080 Speaker 1: so you have two prosessies. One is um the they 1808 01:42:56,120 --> 01:42:58,680 Speaker 1: talk about as a smashing the iron rice ball, right, 1809 01:42:58,760 --> 01:43:02,920 Speaker 1: and and that involved of two process. One is just unemployment. 1810 01:43:03,160 --> 01:43:05,840 Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of um efforts to try 1811 01:43:05,880 --> 01:43:08,560 Speaker 1: to estimate how many people lost their jobs. It is 1812 01:43:08,680 --> 01:43:12,719 Speaker 1: very hard. Political scientists named Dirthy Salinger wrote an article 1813 01:43:13,200 --> 01:43:15,880 Speaker 1: called why It's impossible to know how many unemployed people? 1814 01:43:15,920 --> 01:43:18,280 Speaker 1: There are some something to that effect. Um, but certainly 1815 01:43:18,280 --> 01:43:20,360 Speaker 1: tons of millions of people lost lost their jobs and 1816 01:43:20,439 --> 01:43:22,519 Speaker 1: we're just kind of thrown out into the market. And 1817 01:43:22,600 --> 01:43:24,519 Speaker 1: it's worth remembering that they're thrown out into the market 1818 01:43:24,640 --> 01:43:27,559 Speaker 1: largely in regions where the market was not at all dynamic, right, 1819 01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:30,080 Speaker 1: so in the northeastern part of the country, which did 1820 01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:32,880 Speaker 1: not have the booming economy of Guangdong Province or you know, 1821 01:43:33,040 --> 01:43:36,439 Speaker 1: jong Su Province or places like that. Um. So, so 1822 01:43:36,560 --> 01:43:39,519 Speaker 1: there were those people. People also probably know that there 1823 01:43:39,560 --> 01:43:41,599 Speaker 1: are still a lot of state on enterprises and something 1824 01:43:41,680 --> 01:43:43,800 Speaker 1: like a quarter to you know, maybe a third of 1825 01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:46,840 Speaker 1: China's economy is still accounted for by state on enterprises, 1826 01:43:47,320 --> 01:43:52,040 Speaker 1: but those enterprises have increasingly come to function like capitalist enterprises, 1827 01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:54,439 Speaker 1: at least with respect to the labor relations. They still 1828 01:43:54,479 --> 01:43:56,800 Speaker 1: receive a lot of subsidies from the state. They still 1829 01:43:56,960 --> 01:44:00,720 Speaker 1: enjoy um monopolies, right, so they you know, they don't 1830 01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:05,360 Speaker 1: face competition from other firms, at least domestically UM, and 1831 01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:08,799 Speaker 1: like monopoly based firms in capitalist countries, they offer somewhat 1832 01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:13,000 Speaker 1: better UM pay and somewhat better benefits to their core workforce. Right. So, 1833 01:44:13,120 --> 01:44:16,040 Speaker 1: I mean, if you think of of GM or four 1834 01:44:16,160 --> 01:44:18,040 Speaker 1: in the middle of the twentieth century in the United States, 1835 01:44:18,160 --> 01:44:20,200 Speaker 1: or you can think about Facebook or Google today, you know, 1836 01:44:20,280 --> 01:44:23,479 Speaker 1: these companies that are also basically enjoy monopoly position. Their 1837 01:44:23,520 --> 01:44:27,320 Speaker 1: core workers enjoy, you know, somewhat better pay. Right. But 1838 01:44:27,479 --> 01:44:29,920 Speaker 1: the other thing that's happened is they have increasingly come 1839 01:44:29,960 --> 01:44:34,640 Speaker 1: to be surrounded by a very large contingent of temporary 1840 01:44:34,760 --> 01:44:38,680 Speaker 1: and flexible workers, right um, and so in in in 1841 01:44:38,800 --> 01:44:41,280 Speaker 1: many of these state owned firms, UM, more than fifty 1842 01:44:41,760 --> 01:44:45,559 Speaker 1: of the employees are what they call in China dispatch workers. Right, 1843 01:44:45,800 --> 01:44:47,880 Speaker 1: they don't enjoy any of those same benefits they don't 1844 01:44:47,920 --> 01:44:51,920 Speaker 1: enjoy the same job stabilities um, and they eat in 1845 01:44:52,200 --> 01:44:55,800 Speaker 1: eat in response to market fluctuations and profitability. Those are 1846 01:44:55,800 --> 01:44:58,880 Speaker 1: always the first ones to be let let go, right. 1847 01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:01,759 Speaker 1: So you know, the fact that they are state owned, 1848 01:45:01,920 --> 01:45:05,760 Speaker 1: I think matters to some extent um, but when But 1849 01:45:05,880 --> 01:45:08,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that the old labor regime from you know, 1850 01:45:08,760 --> 01:45:12,360 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies has kind of continued unchanged. Like they 1851 01:45:12,400 --> 01:45:14,920 Speaker 1: are being these firms are being subjected to market pressures 1852 01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:17,360 Speaker 1: and that's reflected and how they treat labor. Yeah, I 1853 01:45:17,400 --> 01:45:19,680 Speaker 1: mean that's something that like if if if you, if 1854 01:45:19,720 --> 01:45:22,960 Speaker 1: you listen to and Ping like actually talk about what's 1855 01:45:22,960 --> 01:45:26,360 Speaker 1: going on. He just constantly, every every like two speeches 1856 01:45:26,439 --> 01:45:28,760 Speaker 1: that he gives there is a line about how like 1857 01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:32,679 Speaker 1: the economy is directed by the market, and like, yeah, 1858 01:45:33,320 --> 01:45:35,519 Speaker 1: he's very clear about it, and in some ways he's 1859 01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:38,360 Speaker 1: he's like very Reganite, like he's just like, we don't 1860 01:45:38,360 --> 01:45:41,320 Speaker 1: we don't want what these lazy people just enjoy welfare benefits, 1861 01:45:41,479 --> 01:45:43,680 Speaker 1: like they believe in the power of the market to 1862 01:45:43,760 --> 01:45:47,080 Speaker 1: discipline people. There's no question about it. Yeah, And I 1863 01:45:47,120 --> 01:45:52,439 Speaker 1: guess the other sort of consequence of this is China's 1864 01:45:52,479 --> 01:45:55,200 Speaker 1: enormous market worker population. And that's definitely another thing I 1865 01:45:55,240 --> 01:45:56,880 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about because that was another round of 1866 01:45:56,920 --> 01:46:01,160 Speaker 1: protest happens in two thousands. That's about uh, this giant 1867 01:46:01,320 --> 01:46:04,519 Speaker 1: fight over household registration that I guess was the last 1868 01:46:04,600 --> 01:46:08,800 Speaker 1: kind of successful, like really mass protest thing in China. 1869 01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:12,280 Speaker 1: We talked about that a little bit. Yeah, I mean, 1870 01:46:12,400 --> 01:46:16,519 Speaker 1: there haven't been the same scale of of collective protests 1871 01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:19,080 Speaker 1: by migrant workers. But um, you know, just as a 1872 01:46:19,160 --> 01:46:22,160 Speaker 1: little bit of background, you have the old state state 1873 01:46:22,200 --> 01:46:25,760 Speaker 1: owned working classes kind of declining or subjected to the 1874 01:46:25,840 --> 01:46:28,720 Speaker 1: market pressures that we're talking about, and so unrest um 1875 01:46:28,920 --> 01:46:32,360 Speaker 1: in that sector becomes a little bit less significant over 1876 01:46:32,360 --> 01:46:34,760 Speaker 1: the course of the two thousands. But that's happening at 1877 01:46:34,800 --> 01:46:37,640 Speaker 1: precisely at the same time that the working class in 1878 01:46:38,200 --> 01:46:41,360 Speaker 1: the private firms is increasingly constituted by these rural urban 1879 01:46:41,439 --> 01:46:45,160 Speaker 1: migrant workers. When they come to the city's they are 1880 01:46:45,320 --> 01:46:48,040 Speaker 1: treated essentially a second class citizens and don't have guaranteed 1881 01:46:48,040 --> 01:46:54,360 Speaker 1: access to all kinds of social services healthcare, pensions, education, etcetera. Um, 1882 01:46:54,680 --> 01:46:57,280 Speaker 1: and so there is a lot of mobilization. I mean, 1883 01:46:57,479 --> 01:47:01,439 Speaker 1: you know, the the Juko household system, household registration systems 1884 01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:04,240 Speaker 1: still exists, and it still has an important role in 1885 01:47:04,360 --> 01:47:11,560 Speaker 1: structuring people's UM classed experiences. UM, but it's it's a 1886 01:47:11,600 --> 01:47:13,720 Speaker 1: little bit less coersive than it used to be. So 1887 01:47:13,840 --> 01:47:16,680 Speaker 1: in two thousand three, there was this famous case UM. 1888 01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:21,320 Speaker 1: A migrant named Soon You're goung Um was taken into custody, 1889 01:47:21,760 --> 01:47:23,920 Speaker 1: as frequently happened, you know at the time, like police 1890 01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:25,920 Speaker 1: would just ask people for their papers on the street 1891 01:47:25,960 --> 01:47:29,560 Speaker 1: if they looked suspicious, and they had a thing in 1892 01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:32,880 Speaker 1: place at the time called custody and repatriation where they 1893 01:47:32,880 --> 01:47:35,080 Speaker 1: would take you into custody and they would they would 1894 01:47:35,080 --> 01:47:37,920 Speaker 1: repatriate you back to your village. Right, So very similar 1895 01:47:38,240 --> 01:47:42,639 Speaker 1: you know to like ice rates against Chinese people. Yeah, yeah, 1896 01:47:42,880 --> 01:47:44,640 Speaker 1: like they had even this is I think one of 1897 01:47:44,680 --> 01:47:48,760 Speaker 1: the things about like, insofar as you can make comparisons 1898 01:47:48,800 --> 01:47:51,160 Speaker 1: between like the Chinese system of the Soviet systems like that, 1899 01:47:51,240 --> 01:47:52,599 Speaker 1: that's one of the few things that was I think 1900 01:47:52,880 --> 01:47:55,639 Speaker 1: kind of similar, is that you do have these very 1901 01:47:55,720 --> 01:47:58,240 Speaker 1: intense into well okay, it's simultaneous that you have these 1902 01:47:58,320 --> 01:48:02,120 Speaker 1: very intense like internal restrictions on migration, but also very 1903 01:48:02,160 --> 01:48:03,760 Speaker 1: similar to the U S system. It's like the the 1904 01:48:04,000 --> 01:48:07,559 Speaker 1: economy is based on everyone breaking these things, that's right. 1905 01:48:07,960 --> 01:48:13,040 Speaker 1: Simultaneously it's illegal, yeah, yeah, right, exactly, Like there's no 1906 01:48:13,320 --> 01:48:16,760 Speaker 1: illegal immigration to the United States, but the economy would 1907 01:48:16,760 --> 01:48:20,000 Speaker 1: obviously collapse without undocumented workers. And it's exactly the same 1908 01:48:20,040 --> 01:48:22,760 Speaker 1: in China. Like, you know, they're like, we we know 1909 01:48:22,920 --> 01:48:25,000 Speaker 1: that these people are here, we know that our economy, 1910 01:48:25,080 --> 01:48:28,080 Speaker 1: particularly the coastal cities, is completely dependent on them, but 1911 01:48:28,680 --> 01:48:30,920 Speaker 1: we're still gonna have cops ask you for your papers 1912 01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:32,559 Speaker 1: on the street, and if they don't like you, they can, 1913 01:48:32,720 --> 01:48:34,880 Speaker 1: you know, round you up and send you home. In 1914 01:48:35,000 --> 01:48:37,639 Speaker 1: this in this particular case back in two thousand and three, 1915 01:48:37,760 --> 01:48:40,920 Speaker 1: the guy they got, it's like he was the quote 1916 01:48:40,960 --> 01:48:44,599 Speaker 1: unquote wrong guy because he was actually a university student 1917 01:48:45,160 --> 01:48:49,720 Speaker 1: and they they they detained him and killed him. And 1918 01:48:50,040 --> 01:48:51,760 Speaker 1: so when this came out and they're like, oh, they 1919 01:48:51,880 --> 01:48:53,920 Speaker 1: killed a college student. Like if had they killed a 1920 01:48:54,000 --> 01:48:56,960 Speaker 1: normal migrant worker, that would be one thing, but he's 1921 01:48:56,960 --> 01:48:59,840 Speaker 1: a college student. So so that created a big fuss 1922 01:49:00,040 --> 01:49:01,800 Speaker 1: and as a result, you know, they actually got rid 1923 01:49:01,880 --> 01:49:05,240 Speaker 1: of of the tention and repatriation, which is good, um there, 1924 01:49:05,520 --> 01:49:08,479 Speaker 1: And so migrant workers today when they're on the streets 1925 01:49:08,520 --> 01:49:10,640 Speaker 1: in the big cities are are not likely to you know, 1926 01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:13,360 Speaker 1: just have cops randomly asked them to see their papers. 1927 01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:16,560 Speaker 1: But they're still subjected to all kinds of social discrimination 1928 01:49:16,680 --> 01:49:21,240 Speaker 1: and definitely, um, you know, institutional discrimination. Yeah, So okay, 1929 01:49:21,240 --> 01:49:23,800 Speaker 1: we're sp speaking of institutional discrimination. We're going to take 1930 01:49:23,840 --> 01:49:25,560 Speaker 1: an ad break and then we will come back and 1931 01:49:25,640 --> 01:49:29,320 Speaker 1: talk or about this. So I enjoy some ads from 1932 01:49:29,360 --> 01:49:33,120 Speaker 1: companies who are probably benefiting from all of this, and 1933 01:49:33,680 --> 01:49:37,560 Speaker 1: we're back. So okay that That's another thing that I 1934 01:49:37,920 --> 01:49:39,880 Speaker 1: I do want to sort of, I guess, use this 1935 01:49:39,960 --> 01:49:43,960 Speaker 1: to push us forward a little bit, which is that, okay, 1936 01:49:43,960 --> 01:49:47,160 Speaker 1: this this is obviously skipping a lot of riots in 1937 01:49:47,240 --> 01:49:50,080 Speaker 1: til USand and eleven. But one of the big things 1938 01:49:50,280 --> 01:49:52,879 Speaker 1: about the COVID restrictions that I don't think people understand 1939 01:49:53,880 --> 01:49:57,560 Speaker 1: has been how bad it's been affecting megicant workers and 1940 01:49:57,840 --> 01:50:00,040 Speaker 1: the extent to which, you know, because one one of 1941 01:50:00,080 --> 01:50:01,680 Speaker 1: the things about the House of Registration system is like, 1942 01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:03,519 Speaker 1: as best I can tell, this is this is the 1943 01:50:03,600 --> 01:50:06,360 Speaker 1: way a lot of like a lot of resources in 1944 01:50:06,479 --> 01:50:09,200 Speaker 1: terms of like here's how you're getting food haven't being 1945 01:50:09,240 --> 01:50:10,960 Speaker 1: distributed and if you know, if you're in a place 1946 01:50:11,080 --> 01:50:13,719 Speaker 1: that's not weird house. The registration is just like, well, okay, 1947 01:50:14,360 --> 01:50:16,439 Speaker 1: the state's not giving you your food, how are you 1948 01:50:16,520 --> 01:50:19,479 Speaker 1: going to deal with this stuff? And yeah, they're not 1949 01:50:19,560 --> 01:50:22,840 Speaker 1: doing that. That that that That's been a big thing that, like, 1950 01:50:24,120 --> 01:50:25,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, a lot of this has been me 1951 01:50:25,840 --> 01:50:29,280 Speaker 1: being upset with the media coverage of these protests because 1952 01:50:29,640 --> 01:50:32,200 Speaker 1: like people will just say COVID zero and then not 1953 01:50:32,400 --> 01:50:38,000 Speaker 1: explain what the actual consequences of this are. So, yeah, 1954 01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:39,880 Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could talk about sort of 1955 01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:44,240 Speaker 1: specifically how how the lockdowns, especially as lockdowns have gone on, 1956 01:50:44,479 --> 01:50:47,719 Speaker 1: have been affecting my co workers, and then how that's 1957 01:50:48,000 --> 01:50:50,920 Speaker 1: and yeah, okay, well so we'll start start there before 1958 01:50:50,960 --> 01:50:54,080 Speaker 1: I jump into a question with seven parts. I mean, 1959 01:50:54,160 --> 01:50:56,679 Speaker 1: I do think it's really important to understand why people 1960 01:50:56,720 --> 01:50:59,400 Speaker 1: are opposed to zero COVID, and sometimes for people outside 1961 01:50:59,439 --> 01:51:02,360 Speaker 1: of China, they think back to the spring of when 1962 01:51:02,720 --> 01:51:04,840 Speaker 1: you know, in the United States, we had like libertarians 1963 01:51:05,080 --> 01:51:07,479 Speaker 1: with guns being like in the lockdown, like we want 1964 01:51:07,479 --> 01:51:10,360 Speaker 1: our freedom, Like it is not that for all sorts 1965 01:51:10,400 --> 01:51:13,439 Speaker 1: of reasons, um and and the way to get at 1966 01:51:13,760 --> 01:51:17,360 Speaker 1: why it's different is to understand some of the classed 1967 01:51:17,880 --> 01:51:21,679 Speaker 1: differences that zero COVID has has entailed. And I should 1968 01:51:21,680 --> 01:51:24,240 Speaker 1: just say it's been pretty terrible for everybody, including rich people, 1969 01:51:24,360 --> 01:51:25,880 Speaker 1: and like you know, we can we can feel some 1970 01:51:25,960 --> 01:51:29,400 Speaker 1: sympathy for them to UM, but but it's had some 1971 01:51:29,600 --> 01:51:34,800 Speaker 1: particularly nefarious consequences for for migrant workers. This became really 1972 01:51:34,840 --> 01:51:37,600 Speaker 1: clear in the Shanghai lockdown. It's also worth noting that 1973 01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:40,760 Speaker 1: there are three hundred million migrant workers in China. So 1974 01:51:40,840 --> 01:51:43,760 Speaker 1: this is not like this this is like half the 1975 01:51:43,800 --> 01:51:47,640 Speaker 1: population of Europe like so many people are talking about here. 1976 01:51:47,720 --> 01:51:52,040 Speaker 1: It's it's it's almost an America sized population of people 1977 01:51:52,360 --> 01:51:55,240 Speaker 1: who are not living where their household registration is. And 1978 01:51:55,600 --> 01:51:58,080 Speaker 1: so the basic thing is, as you were just sort 1979 01:51:58,120 --> 01:52:01,960 Speaker 1: of saying that when they're is a lockdown and you're 1980 01:52:02,000 --> 01:52:05,920 Speaker 1: a migrant worker, you you kind of don't exist from 1981 01:52:06,320 --> 01:52:09,080 Speaker 1: the states, or you might exist, but like you might 1982 01:52:09,160 --> 01:52:11,640 Speaker 1: also be overlooked from the perspective of the state. So 1983 01:52:11,760 --> 01:52:15,000 Speaker 1: one very concrete way that this UM screwed people over 1984 01:52:15,760 --> 01:52:18,280 Speaker 1: was in these hard lockdowns, you're not allowed out of 1985 01:52:18,320 --> 01:52:22,519 Speaker 1: your house and you're dependent on the neighborhood committee, which 1986 01:52:22,600 --> 01:52:25,280 Speaker 1: is which is connected to the state. It's kind of 1987 01:52:25,320 --> 01:52:27,240 Speaker 1: the lowest level of the state. You were dependent on 1988 01:52:27,360 --> 01:52:29,679 Speaker 1: them for the delivery of everything that you need to survive, 1989 01:52:29,920 --> 01:52:33,920 Speaker 1: right critically food and medicine. Yeah, can back up and 1990 01:52:33,920 --> 01:52:36,040 Speaker 1: say something about this. This is something This is something 1991 01:52:36,240 --> 01:52:39,679 Speaker 1: very very different than the American lockdowns, which is like, well, okay, 1992 01:52:40,160 --> 01:52:43,160 Speaker 1: it depends on a like it it depends on a 1993 01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:45,519 Speaker 1: on on like a province of profit s basis. Like 1994 01:52:45,600 --> 01:52:48,920 Speaker 1: I know, my family was in Mogolia. They like in 1995 01:52:49,000 --> 01:52:51,919 Speaker 1: the Mogolia like you you just you like. The lockdown 1996 01:52:52,040 --> 01:52:53,800 Speaker 1: isn't like you don't go to work. The lockdown is 1997 01:52:53,840 --> 01:52:56,479 Speaker 1: you cannot leave your house like you can. You can say, 1998 01:52:56,479 --> 01:52:59,000 Speaker 1: I think I think their lockdown, their first one was 1999 01:52:59,520 --> 01:53:02,000 Speaker 1: one person in their house once a week can leave 2000 01:53:02,040 --> 01:53:04,639 Speaker 1: to go get groceries. But it's like it's not like yeah, 2001 01:53:04,680 --> 01:53:08,080 Speaker 1: like it's it's you, like you physically cannot leave. You 2002 01:53:08,120 --> 01:53:09,680 Speaker 1: will be if you attempt to leave, you will be 2003 01:53:09,760 --> 01:53:13,160 Speaker 1: prevented from doing so. And this means that you don't 2004 01:53:13,479 --> 01:53:17,519 Speaker 1: really have an independent way of like getting food or 2005 01:53:17,600 --> 01:53:21,320 Speaker 1: like going shopping or yeah, like getting I don't know, 2006 01:53:21,400 --> 01:53:25,560 Speaker 1: like toilet paper, like yeah, not toilet resonates with with 2007 01:53:25,680 --> 01:53:28,680 Speaker 1: Americans in our in our toilet paper shortage of but 2008 01:53:29,160 --> 01:53:31,000 Speaker 1: I mean in some cases, like people would actually just 2009 01:53:31,240 --> 01:53:34,200 Speaker 1: be literally chained into their apartments, right, So like this 2010 01:53:34,400 --> 01:53:37,040 Speaker 1: is not whatever people in in in the U s. 2011 01:53:37,160 --> 01:53:39,080 Speaker 1: Or even even in parts of Western Europe, you know, 2012 01:53:39,120 --> 01:53:41,560 Speaker 1: where the lockdowns were a little bit more intensely police like, 2013 01:53:42,200 --> 01:53:44,760 Speaker 1: it is not that it is a qualitatively different thing. 2014 01:53:45,000 --> 01:53:47,840 Speaker 1: And so yeah, you're completely dependent on the state. So 2015 01:53:48,400 --> 01:53:51,240 Speaker 1: therefore it's really really important that the state know that 2016 01:53:51,360 --> 01:53:54,280 Speaker 1: you are there and that the state feels itself to 2017 01:53:54,360 --> 01:53:58,080 Speaker 1: be tasked with your survival and if you're a migrant worker. 2018 01:53:58,520 --> 01:54:00,800 Speaker 1: So so one of the very greet ways that this 2019 01:54:01,280 --> 01:54:03,920 Speaker 1: effective migrant workers is that a lot of them live 2020 01:54:04,120 --> 01:54:06,960 Speaker 1: in informal housing, even in the biggest cities, even in 2021 01:54:07,000 --> 01:54:09,439 Speaker 1: place like Shanhai and Beijing, because those are the only 2022 01:54:09,520 --> 01:54:12,040 Speaker 1: places that they can live as far as the state's concerned, 2023 01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:15,519 Speaker 1: Like that informal housing might not exist, they are very 2024 01:54:15,640 --> 01:54:19,280 Speaker 1: very frequently more people living in those dwellings than are 2025 01:54:19,400 --> 01:54:22,160 Speaker 1: sort of legally accounted for. So you know, like there's 2026 01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:24,400 Speaker 1: ten people living in an apartment that's supposed to be 2027 01:54:24,520 --> 01:54:26,840 Speaker 1: for for you know, a family of three, and so 2028 01:54:26,960 --> 01:54:29,960 Speaker 1: they deliver three people's worth of food, but there's actually 2029 01:54:30,040 --> 01:54:33,720 Speaker 1: ten people living there. That's a subsistence crisis, right. Um. 2030 01:54:33,840 --> 01:54:37,160 Speaker 1: You know, the medical stuff is just like astonishing and 2031 01:54:37,360 --> 01:54:39,440 Speaker 1: very harrowing. I mean, you know, just people just dying 2032 01:54:39,440 --> 01:54:41,680 Speaker 1: in their apartment because like they can't get insolent or 2033 01:54:42,160 --> 01:54:44,840 Speaker 1: all kinds. I know, I know people whose family died 2034 01:54:44,880 --> 01:54:46,800 Speaker 1: because they had cancer and they couldn't get treatment for 2035 01:54:46,840 --> 01:54:52,760 Speaker 1: it because yeah, yeah, like yeah, it's disaster. Yeah. So 2036 01:54:53,120 --> 01:54:56,200 Speaker 1: so that's that's the situation. That's one of the problems 2037 01:54:56,240 --> 01:54:58,360 Speaker 1: with them for the migrant workers. And then in the 2038 01:54:58,520 --> 01:55:01,000 Speaker 1: very intense lockdowns at least in in Shanghai, back in 2039 01:55:01,240 --> 01:55:04,360 Speaker 1: in the spring of this year. Um, you know, they 2040 01:55:04,400 --> 01:55:06,600 Speaker 1: also can't leave. So like one option would be like okay, 2041 01:55:06,640 --> 01:55:08,600 Speaker 1: will you go back to the place where you do 2042 01:55:08,800 --> 01:55:11,360 Speaker 1: have your household registration, you know, back in the village 2043 01:55:11,360 --> 01:55:12,880 Speaker 1: and you have a piece of land and like you 2044 01:55:12,960 --> 01:55:17,280 Speaker 1: can survive. They couldn't leave, right, there's no transportation, um, 2045 01:55:17,480 --> 01:55:19,720 Speaker 1: And so they were trapped in this situation where they 2046 01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:23,600 Speaker 1: couldn't work, the government wasn't you know, delivering them food, 2047 01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:25,400 Speaker 1: and they couldn't go to some place some other place 2048 01:55:25,440 --> 01:55:28,480 Speaker 1: where they could get food. And so you know, there's 2049 01:55:28,520 --> 01:55:30,400 Speaker 1: been a lot of attention to these recent protests, which 2050 01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:33,360 Speaker 1: are extremely important and qualitatively different. But even back in 2051 01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:37,440 Speaker 1: in April, we saw food riots, like in Shanghai, a 2052 01:55:37,520 --> 01:55:40,480 Speaker 1: group of group of migrant workers just like requisitions like 2053 01:55:40,600 --> 01:55:43,120 Speaker 1: a truck full of cabbage, you know, and just started 2054 01:55:43,200 --> 01:55:45,520 Speaker 1: like tossing cabbages to people on the street because people 2055 01:55:45,600 --> 01:55:49,680 Speaker 1: were like literally starving. So I mean, yeah, so there's 2056 01:55:49,680 --> 01:55:53,480 Speaker 1: a real problem for the bigrant workers. And on that note, 2057 01:55:53,600 --> 01:55:56,120 Speaker 1: this has been nic could happen here? Join us tomorrow 2058 01:55:56,200 --> 01:55:58,400 Speaker 1: for part two of this episode. We'll be talking more 2059 01:55:58,480 --> 01:56:03,560 Speaker 1: about lockdowns, similar problems with workers and this all going 2060 01:56:18,680 --> 01:56:20,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Dick It Happened Here, the podcast that you're 2061 01:56:20,880 --> 01:56:24,440 Speaker 1: listening to right now. It's your host, Christopher Long, and 2062 01:56:24,800 --> 01:56:27,000 Speaker 1: we are back with part two of our interview with 2063 01:56:27,120 --> 01:56:30,840 Speaker 1: Eli Friedman about the reason protests in China. I want 2064 01:56:30,840 --> 01:56:34,360 Speaker 1: to go back and talk about lying flat and that 2065 01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:39,240 Speaker 1: whole kind of I don't know, movement discourse that was 2066 01:56:39,320 --> 01:56:43,520 Speaker 1: happening last year, because it seems like the kind of 2067 01:56:44,040 --> 01:56:45,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if nihilism is the right word, but 2068 01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:49,720 Speaker 1: this kind of like collective understanding that the whole sort 2069 01:56:49,760 --> 01:56:51,960 Speaker 1: of bargain of the Chinese social system of you know, 2070 01:56:52,000 --> 01:56:54,600 Speaker 1: and this was to some extent extended to everyone, right, 2071 01:56:54,760 --> 01:56:58,000 Speaker 1: like the bargain of the Chinese social system of everyone 2072 01:56:58,040 --> 01:57:00,160 Speaker 1: everyone keep your head down while get rich together, or 2073 01:57:00,560 --> 01:57:03,760 Speaker 1: it suddenly became clear that this just wasn't gonna happen. 2074 01:57:04,520 --> 01:57:06,760 Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, I think like, in some 2075 01:57:06,920 --> 01:57:09,320 Speaker 1: sense it's possible to sort of like, you know, you 2076 01:57:09,400 --> 01:57:11,640 Speaker 1: can you can put on your sort of like hard 2077 01:57:11,720 --> 01:57:14,160 Speaker 1: materialist hat and you can like look at like the 2078 01:57:14,360 --> 01:57:16,200 Speaker 1: number of hammers banging out, and you can just look 2079 01:57:16,240 --> 01:57:18,120 Speaker 1: at the show of Chinese GDP graph of the last 2080 01:57:18,160 --> 01:57:21,480 Speaker 1: decade and be like, okay, well so eventually like when 2081 01:57:21,600 --> 01:57:23,800 Speaker 1: what what what it hit like two percent? Eventually we 2082 01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:27,160 Speaker 1: were going to have protests. But yeah, I guess, I 2083 01:57:27,240 --> 01:57:29,760 Speaker 1: guess I I wanted to talk a bit about like, yeah, 2084 01:57:29,960 --> 01:57:33,000 Speaker 1: what lying flat was? We covered this on the show 2085 01:57:33,120 --> 01:57:34,720 Speaker 1: a long time ago when it was happening, but and 2086 01:57:34,760 --> 01:57:37,880 Speaker 1: then also sort of how that attitude shift was important 2087 01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:40,720 Speaker 1: or wasn't important. I don't know, Maybe it wasn't. I 2088 01:57:40,840 --> 01:57:46,800 Speaker 1: think it was, but yeah, I think it's very important. Right, So, yeah, 2089 01:57:46,960 --> 01:57:50,000 Speaker 1: you can't just be a crude materialist and like mechanically 2090 01:57:50,080 --> 01:57:52,880 Speaker 1: read social protest off of some chart of you know, 2091 01:57:52,960 --> 01:57:57,400 Speaker 1: falling profitability or something like that. Um, but there it 2092 01:57:57,560 --> 01:58:01,760 Speaker 1: is a cultural expression of real fundamental changes in the 2093 01:58:01,880 --> 01:58:04,800 Speaker 1: organization of the Chinese economy. Uh. You know, we already 2094 01:58:04,840 --> 01:58:07,480 Speaker 1: talked about how the post eighty nine generation was like 2095 01:58:07,960 --> 01:58:09,600 Speaker 1: you go to college and like you come out and 2096 01:58:09,800 --> 01:58:12,520 Speaker 1: you know you'll you'll be middle class right on average, 2097 01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:15,720 Speaker 1: And that's just not at all the case anymore. And 2098 01:58:16,120 --> 01:58:19,400 Speaker 1: young people in China and and older people, middle aged 2099 01:58:19,440 --> 01:58:21,480 Speaker 1: people you know, who are who have children, who are 2100 01:58:21,520 --> 01:58:25,839 Speaker 1: who are going through the system, um, feel immense pressure 2101 01:58:26,120 --> 01:58:29,960 Speaker 1: in like immense competition in all spheres of life, beginning 2102 01:58:30,120 --> 01:58:33,080 Speaker 1: from a young age in elementary school, all the way 2103 01:58:33,120 --> 01:58:35,800 Speaker 1: up through high school, through the super competitive and intense 2104 01:58:35,960 --> 01:58:41,320 Speaker 1: university admissions process, and then after graduating university and getting 2105 01:58:41,320 --> 01:58:43,440 Speaker 1: a job, and then getting a job that can you know, 2106 01:58:43,920 --> 01:58:46,280 Speaker 1: um uh, you can earn enough money to be able 2107 01:58:46,320 --> 01:58:48,680 Speaker 1: to afford an apartment. And so here we have to 2108 01:58:48,760 --> 01:58:51,640 Speaker 1: understand you know, the cost of housing and all of 2109 01:58:51,680 --> 01:58:55,120 Speaker 1: the other costs associated with social reproduction. So the like 2110 01:58:55,240 --> 01:58:58,160 Speaker 1: the cost of care workers. Right, middle class people in 2111 01:58:58,240 --> 01:59:02,000 Speaker 1: places like Shanghai and Beijing expect to have domestic workers, um, 2112 01:59:02,160 --> 01:59:03,920 Speaker 1: you know, looking after their children. They expect to be 2113 01:59:03,960 --> 01:59:06,480 Speaker 1: able to hire tutors who can um you know, and 2114 01:59:06,560 --> 01:59:10,600 Speaker 1: comtutor their children in English or in math um. And 2115 01:59:10,960 --> 01:59:15,480 Speaker 1: so just people feel under unbelievable pressure. And this is 2116 01:59:15,560 --> 01:59:17,920 Speaker 1: in a situation. The part of the reason that the 2117 01:59:18,840 --> 01:59:21,080 Speaker 1: pressure has is really ramped up is that there are 2118 01:59:21,160 --> 01:59:24,800 Speaker 1: fewer good paying jobs. You know, youth unemployment now in 2119 01:59:24,960 --> 01:59:29,800 Speaker 1: China is around um and so one of the responses 2120 01:59:29,840 --> 01:59:32,080 Speaker 1: to that is just forget about it. We're you know, 2121 01:59:32,200 --> 01:59:35,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna lie flat, We're gonna we're gonna reject all 2122 01:59:35,280 --> 01:59:39,160 Speaker 1: of this. There's different expressions, and I don't actually the 2123 01:59:39,760 --> 01:59:41,960 Speaker 1: sort of like you know, sociologists and me is like, well, 2124 01:59:42,000 --> 01:59:43,800 Speaker 1: we don't actually have numbers to know how many people 2125 01:59:43,880 --> 01:59:46,480 Speaker 1: are are lying flat, and like that is true, Like 2126 01:59:46,640 --> 01:59:48,520 Speaker 1: maybe most people are still just going to work and 2127 01:59:48,920 --> 01:59:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, doing their job. But there's enough you know, 2128 01:59:51,720 --> 01:59:54,680 Speaker 1: stories and certainly in terms of cultural residence of people 2129 01:59:55,160 --> 01:59:58,200 Speaker 1: just doing the bare minimum at work or working for 2130 01:59:58,320 --> 02:00:00,960 Speaker 1: short periods of time, earning just enough money to survive 2131 02:00:01,520 --> 02:00:04,320 Speaker 1: and not worrying about meeting those kind of social expectations 2132 02:00:04,440 --> 02:00:08,000 Speaker 1: around buying a car, buying an apartment, getting married, having kids, 2133 02:00:08,080 --> 02:00:10,560 Speaker 1: because people just see it as as kind of it's 2134 02:00:10,600 --> 02:00:13,480 Speaker 1: kind of hopeless. Um. And so I think that's a 2135 02:00:13,480 --> 02:00:16,960 Speaker 1: really important backdrop, because we have to understand at some 2136 02:00:17,200 --> 02:00:20,040 Speaker 1: level that these protests are about a sense of hopelessness, 2137 02:00:20,280 --> 02:00:24,120 Speaker 1: right be at economic opportunities, be at the political system 2138 02:00:24,160 --> 02:00:26,600 Speaker 1: where cigent being is going to rain as long as 2139 02:00:26,640 --> 02:00:29,200 Speaker 1: he wants, or be at zero COVID where you know, 2140 02:00:29,240 --> 02:00:30,960 Speaker 1: at any given moment, you're gonna be locked inside your 2141 02:00:31,000 --> 02:00:32,440 Speaker 1: apartment and you're not gonna be able to see your 2142 02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:35,680 Speaker 1: friends or or do anything. So um, yeah, So I 2143 02:00:35,680 --> 02:00:39,160 Speaker 1: think it's very relevant. Yeah, and I wanted to I 2144 02:00:39,280 --> 02:00:42,040 Speaker 1: guess also too. This is something I talked about on 2145 02:00:42,080 --> 02:00:44,920 Speaker 1: this podcast a lot. But I need to like drill 2146 02:00:44,960 --> 02:00:49,240 Speaker 1: into people's heads, like just the sheer amount that people 2147 02:00:49,280 --> 02:00:53,560 Speaker 1: in China are working, just like like the number of hours, 2148 02:00:53,640 --> 02:00:55,960 Speaker 1: a number of days a week, the the amount of 2149 02:00:56,040 --> 02:00:59,360 Speaker 1: effort that is being put in is like it it is, 2150 02:00:59,440 --> 02:01:01,680 Speaker 1: it it is. It is a level of rowser plus 2151 02:01:01,760 --> 02:01:06,880 Speaker 1: value extraction that like like like most places in the 2152 02:01:07,000 --> 02:01:10,000 Speaker 1: world haven't seen in like a quarter, like in like 2153 02:01:10,160 --> 02:01:13,480 Speaker 1: half a century. It is like or even longer than that, 2154 02:01:13,640 --> 02:01:18,280 Speaker 1: Like it is, it is a a truly stunning like 2155 02:01:18,680 --> 02:01:21,240 Speaker 1: there's a truly stunning level of exploitation in terms of 2156 02:01:21,280 --> 02:01:23,840 Speaker 1: things like nine six, in terms of the people who 2157 02:01:23,880 --> 02:01:25,720 Speaker 1: are working schedules that are way worse than that, who 2158 02:01:25,800 --> 02:01:29,160 Speaker 1: don't really ever get like talked about because they're not 2159 02:01:29,240 --> 02:01:31,280 Speaker 1: tech workers or they're not people who have sort of 2160 02:01:31,440 --> 02:01:39,240 Speaker 1: like a platform Chinese society. Yeah, it's it's extremely normalized, 2161 02:01:39,760 --> 02:01:42,840 Speaker 1: you know, I mean like thing which which first of all, 2162 02:01:43,480 --> 02:01:46,360 Speaker 1: it is maybe worth mentioning that China legally has a 2163 02:01:46,440 --> 02:01:48,680 Speaker 1: forty hour work week. You're only allowed to work thirty 2164 02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:51,800 Speaker 1: six hours of overtime a month, right, so probably you know, 2165 02:01:52,040 --> 02:01:53,920 Speaker 1: not more than forty nine or fifty hours a week. 2166 02:01:54,120 --> 02:01:57,600 Speaker 1: That's that's like the legal the legal standard. Nobody even 2167 02:01:57,680 --> 02:02:01,120 Speaker 1: remotely pretends like that is a thing in any industry. 2168 02:02:01,240 --> 02:02:04,920 Speaker 1: There's legal debates about like whether it applies to professional 2169 02:02:04,960 --> 02:02:08,120 Speaker 1: white collar you know, salaried workers or not. But um, 2170 02:02:08,720 --> 02:02:11,040 Speaker 1: you know, when the n S thing came out and 2171 02:02:11,240 --> 02:02:14,560 Speaker 1: there was a pretty cool i think movement based mostly 2172 02:02:14,640 --> 02:02:18,400 Speaker 1: online among tech workers, it was it was great, it 2173 02:02:18,480 --> 02:02:22,520 Speaker 1: was very inspiring, and also every single blue collar worker, 2174 02:02:23,840 --> 02:02:26,840 Speaker 1: like we've been waiting the United six for decades, you know, 2175 02:02:27,600 --> 02:02:31,080 Speaker 1: um and so so it is, it is very normal 2176 02:02:31,200 --> 02:02:35,320 Speaker 1: across these these different kinds of of stratum for sure. Um. 2177 02:02:36,360 --> 02:02:38,480 Speaker 1: One of the cool things about nine six is people 2178 02:02:38,960 --> 02:02:41,600 Speaker 1: were we're revolting against it and saying like this is 2179 02:02:41,600 --> 02:02:45,280 Speaker 1: an unacceptable way to live. And again it comes back 2180 02:02:45,280 --> 02:02:47,120 Speaker 1: to this whole thing of like all of these feelings 2181 02:02:47,200 --> 02:02:50,240 Speaker 1: of you know, these enhanced pressures right where it's just 2182 02:02:50,360 --> 02:02:52,320 Speaker 1: like how do I live in this city? How do 2183 02:02:52,400 --> 02:02:55,360 Speaker 1: I find like decent housing? Like if you know, if 2184 02:02:55,400 --> 02:02:57,160 Speaker 1: I want to have like a social life, which is 2185 02:02:57,200 --> 02:02:58,960 Speaker 1: the thing that some people in their twenties want to have, 2186 02:02:59,200 --> 02:03:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, how do I do that? It's impossible under 2187 02:03:02,600 --> 02:03:09,000 Speaker 1: those circumstances. Um. So so again, like you can't read 2188 02:03:09,040 --> 02:03:12,680 Speaker 1: these movements mechanically off of these these uh, these structural changes. 2189 02:03:12,760 --> 02:03:14,680 Speaker 1: But like that is a thing that has been happening 2190 02:03:14,720 --> 02:03:18,920 Speaker 1: that is unresolved. It's not at least for the you know, 2191 02:03:19,040 --> 02:03:22,160 Speaker 1: the blank paper protesters, the kind of the more elite 2192 02:03:22,240 --> 02:03:26,240 Speaker 1: students and stuff. They haven't specifically articulated um, their grievances 2193 02:03:26,920 --> 02:03:31,520 Speaker 1: as labor demands. Um. But it's it's at least an 2194 02:03:31,560 --> 02:03:34,920 Speaker 1: important backdrop to what's happening today? Yeah, and I think 2195 02:03:34,960 --> 02:03:40,520 Speaker 1: it's remember like how I think I think this was 2196 02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:46,320 Speaker 1: like mide twenty night keeen. I'm trying to remember when 2197 02:03:46,360 --> 02:03:49,400 Speaker 1: I when I saw this specific video. But there there, there, 2198 02:03:49,480 --> 02:03:51,400 Speaker 1: there there was a video from the Hong Kong protests 2199 02:03:51,600 --> 02:03:53,960 Speaker 1: that was like it's almost it was it was like 2200 02:03:54,080 --> 02:03:56,920 Speaker 1: literally one of these classic like like sort of Twitter things, 2201 02:03:57,000 --> 02:03:58,080 Speaker 1: but like what do you want out? What do you 2202 02:03:58,120 --> 02:03:59,800 Speaker 1: want to do after the revolution, And it was like 2203 02:04:00,760 --> 02:04:03,160 Speaker 1: most of it was like I want to start a bakery, 2204 02:04:03,880 --> 02:04:06,680 Speaker 1: like I want to work in a library. And it 2205 02:04:07,960 --> 02:04:10,960 Speaker 1: strikes me that there's these things that get subsumed under 2206 02:04:11,080 --> 02:04:12,600 Speaker 1: you know when when when when you see a pro 2207 02:04:12,680 --> 02:04:15,440 Speaker 1: democracy movement, right when when you see you know, like 2208 02:04:15,600 --> 02:04:18,080 Speaker 1: the sort of well, I I guess that there's something 2209 02:04:18,080 --> 02:04:21,880 Speaker 1: interesting to hear about the like like day one of 2210 02:04:22,000 --> 02:04:23,920 Speaker 1: the protests, there were a lot of videos that we're 2211 02:04:23,960 --> 02:04:26,080 Speaker 1: talking about Iran and that kind of seemed to like 2212 02:04:26,840 --> 02:04:29,440 Speaker 1: like the very early videos were about sort of solidarity 2213 02:04:29,560 --> 02:04:32,560 Speaker 1: with the protests in a room she and then like 2214 02:04:33,640 --> 02:04:35,200 Speaker 1: it was like it was like specifically tying that to 2215 02:04:35,320 --> 02:04:39,080 Speaker 1: Iran and then to sort of pro democracy demands and 2216 02:04:39,120 --> 02:04:42,480 Speaker 1: then later on you get the sort of like like 2217 02:04:42,680 --> 02:04:47,120 Speaker 1: the Shanghai like down with the party, Downianping, like we 2218 02:04:47,160 --> 02:04:49,640 Speaker 1: went to bocracy and free speech stuff. But it strikes 2219 02:04:49,680 --> 02:04:52,320 Speaker 1: me that like a lot of the times when you 2220 02:04:52,400 --> 02:04:55,280 Speaker 1: see people making those demands, it's because they think that 2221 02:04:55,480 --> 02:04:57,840 Speaker 1: like you know, it's like there there there's a whole 2222 02:04:57,920 --> 02:05:00,560 Speaker 1: set of of like things that they things that they 2223 02:05:00,600 --> 02:05:03,080 Speaker 1: believe about the future and about what will happen in 2224 02:05:03,160 --> 02:05:05,960 Speaker 1: the future that are like not articulated in the demands, 2225 02:05:05,960 --> 02:05:07,600 Speaker 1: but if you talked about if you talk about them, 2226 02:05:07,840 --> 02:05:09,560 Speaker 1: like if you talk to people about what they think 2227 02:05:09,680 --> 02:05:12,640 Speaker 1: is going to happen after that, there's this whole sort 2228 02:05:12,680 --> 02:05:14,800 Speaker 1: of like opening up of social stuff that they think 2229 02:05:14,880 --> 02:05:17,920 Speaker 1: will be like the necessary results of like the end 2230 02:05:17,960 --> 02:05:19,760 Speaker 1: of the one party state. And it's like, you know, 2231 02:05:19,800 --> 02:05:21,480 Speaker 1: I don't want him, Like I don't know. I had 2232 02:05:21,520 --> 02:05:24,840 Speaker 1: this debate a lot with like like there there's kind 2233 02:05:24,840 --> 02:05:26,800 Speaker 1: of like Chinese international student you get in the US 2234 02:05:26,920 --> 02:05:29,760 Speaker 1: who like comes to the US and it's like immediately 2235 02:05:29,800 --> 02:05:32,160 Speaker 1: like enormously enamored with the US. It's it's it's sort 2236 02:05:32,200 --> 02:05:34,680 Speaker 1: of the mirror image of how we have a bunch 2237 02:05:34,680 --> 02:05:37,040 Speaker 1: of people who are like incredibly enamored with the Chinese state, 2238 02:05:37,960 --> 02:05:39,640 Speaker 1: and then you get people who come here and are 2239 02:05:39,680 --> 02:05:43,440 Speaker 1: like incredibly enamored the American state, and it's like, well, yeah, okay, 2240 02:05:43,920 --> 02:05:47,160 Speaker 1: this politician will see you and they will talk to you. However, Comma, 2241 02:05:47,520 --> 02:05:49,280 Speaker 1: in about two years they will be voting to throw 2242 02:05:49,320 --> 02:05:54,080 Speaker 1: you in prison. So like, but like obviously, like both 2243 02:05:54,360 --> 02:05:56,760 Speaker 1: people in China understand the Chinese system sucks and that 2244 02:05:56,840 --> 02:05:59,080 Speaker 1: the promises that people like in the US believe about 2245 02:05:59,080 --> 02:06:00,560 Speaker 1: it are fake, and then people in the U s 2246 02:06:00,640 --> 02:06:02,760 Speaker 1: understand that you can get a multiparty democracy and things 2247 02:06:02,800 --> 02:06:06,040 Speaker 1: because still be absolutely shit. But yeah, yeah, you know, 2248 02:06:06,200 --> 02:06:09,120 Speaker 1: it strikes me that there's a lot of stuff sort 2249 02:06:09,120 --> 02:06:12,000 Speaker 1: of embedded in in these demands that are like not 2250 02:06:13,320 --> 02:06:16,560 Speaker 1: really explicitly articulated until later. And then that's also, I guess, 2251 02:06:16,600 --> 02:06:19,480 Speaker 1: been a hard part about these protests that like, I 2252 02:06:19,520 --> 02:06:21,400 Speaker 1: don't know, it's hard to get information out. You can 2253 02:06:21,440 --> 02:06:23,920 Speaker 1: get shortened views with people. Mostly what you're getting are 2254 02:06:24,000 --> 02:06:30,320 Speaker 1: like thirty seconds of footage of people yelling at a cop. Right, yeah, yeah, 2255 02:06:30,320 --> 02:06:32,640 Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot going on. Like if you 2256 02:06:33,120 --> 02:06:36,920 Speaker 1: have this one, this tiny little opening, and then instantly 2257 02:06:37,160 --> 02:06:39,600 Speaker 1: you have protests in like all of these cities all 2258 02:06:39,640 --> 02:06:44,080 Speaker 1: over the country, dozens of universities, protests among you know, 2259 02:06:44,200 --> 02:06:47,800 Speaker 1: working class migrants, like middle class people in Shanghai, like 2260 02:06:48,200 --> 02:06:51,280 Speaker 1: you know, all across the country. Like that suggests that 2261 02:06:51,960 --> 02:06:55,040 Speaker 1: people have a variety of sets of grievances and they're 2262 02:06:55,080 --> 02:06:58,440 Speaker 1: kind of funneling them through this this meta narrative around 2263 02:06:58,560 --> 02:07:00,960 Speaker 1: ending the lockdown, which is not to minished the significance 2264 02:07:01,000 --> 02:07:03,680 Speaker 1: of the actual lockdowns, which are are called causing real 2265 02:07:04,200 --> 02:07:07,160 Speaker 1: human suffering. But there's definitely a lot going on, and 2266 02:07:07,480 --> 02:07:09,920 Speaker 1: you know, one of the big ones is what's happening 2267 02:07:09,960 --> 02:07:14,280 Speaker 1: in shin Jong, Like it's we still don't really know 2268 02:07:14,840 --> 02:07:18,160 Speaker 1: how Weakers are feeling about all of this. The fact 2269 02:07:18,240 --> 02:07:20,800 Speaker 1: that like all of the all the Protestants in the 2270 02:07:20,840 --> 02:07:24,080 Speaker 1: big Eastern cities are about commemorating what happened in ermchi 2271 02:07:24,680 --> 02:07:27,680 Speaker 1: uh in a fire that killed mostly if not exclusively, weaker. 2272 02:07:27,720 --> 02:07:31,280 Speaker 1: It's like that that that deserves to be talked about. Um, 2273 02:07:32,400 --> 02:07:34,760 Speaker 1: we don't really know how Like the Han people on 2274 02:07:34,840 --> 02:07:36,880 Speaker 1: the streets in the Eastern cities, like if they're thinking 2275 02:07:36,960 --> 02:07:41,160 Speaker 1: about this this backdrop of you know, massive repression, surveillance 2276 02:07:41,240 --> 02:07:45,720 Speaker 1: and mass internment of of weakers and other Moslim minorities. Um, 2277 02:07:46,520 --> 02:07:49,360 Speaker 1: but that's another thing. Uh And and I think the 2278 02:07:49,440 --> 02:07:51,840 Speaker 1: same thing goes for the treatment of migrant workers in 2279 02:07:52,360 --> 02:07:55,040 Speaker 1: in fox Con and these other um blue collar workers 2280 02:07:55,080 --> 02:07:57,120 Speaker 1: who were put into the closed loop. Like to what 2281 02:07:57,320 --> 02:08:01,280 Speaker 1: extent our urban um Han people still kind of willing 2282 02:08:01,320 --> 02:08:04,240 Speaker 1: to go along with sacrificing migrant workers and treating them 2283 02:08:04,280 --> 02:08:07,240 Speaker 1: as as as second class citizens or is there a 2284 02:08:07,240 --> 02:08:11,160 Speaker 1: possibility of developing some real sense of of solidarity um 2285 02:08:11,360 --> 02:08:14,400 Speaker 1: with ending not just the closed loop, but ending you know, 2286 02:08:14,640 --> 02:08:18,280 Speaker 1: like kuko based discrimination, ending the camps in Shinjong, you know, 2287 02:08:18,360 --> 02:08:20,960 Speaker 1: I mean, you can kind of spin out from there 2288 02:08:21,040 --> 02:08:23,560 Speaker 1: if if you are interested in thinking about what it 2289 02:08:23,600 --> 02:08:26,200 Speaker 1: would mean to democratize China in like a in a 2290 02:08:26,400 --> 02:08:29,360 Speaker 1: robust sense of the word, I think points out of 2291 02:08:29,440 --> 02:08:31,480 Speaker 1: everything about these protests that are complicated, right, which is 2292 02:08:31,560 --> 02:08:35,960 Speaker 1: that like they are cross class in a lot of ways. 2293 02:08:36,920 --> 02:08:40,240 Speaker 1: But I don't know, it seems to me like the 2294 02:08:40,280 --> 02:08:44,520 Speaker 1: way they're manifesting is very much down class lines. Like Okay, 2295 02:08:44,520 --> 02:08:47,520 Speaker 1: I genuinely don't understand what's going on in Guangzho that 2296 02:08:47,600 --> 02:08:49,320 Speaker 1: like every single video I see at a Gwangho is 2297 02:08:49,400 --> 02:08:52,360 Speaker 1: like seventy people throwing bottles at a cop, and like 2298 02:08:52,520 --> 02:08:55,200 Speaker 1: every video I see out of like Shanghai is like 2299 02:08:55,680 --> 02:08:58,240 Speaker 1: six people holding a piece of paper. But it very 2300 02:08:58,320 --> 02:08:59,920 Speaker 1: much seems like, you know, like when when it when 2301 02:09:00,000 --> 02:09:02,240 Speaker 1: when when the cops are getting to like these these 2302 02:09:02,280 --> 02:09:04,600 Speaker 1: sort of like these working class neighborhood these neighborhoods that 2303 02:09:04,640 --> 02:09:08,280 Speaker 1: are like a informal housing, these neighborhoods that are full 2304 02:09:08,280 --> 02:09:11,200 Speaker 1: of migrant workers. There were these really really intense conflicts 2305 02:09:11,240 --> 02:09:14,360 Speaker 1: with the police in ways that like kind of aren't happening. Well, 2306 02:09:14,360 --> 02:09:16,480 Speaker 1: I mean, okay, that's because the kind of stuff seems 2307 02:09:16,480 --> 02:09:17,840 Speaker 1: to be happening in a room sheet and I think 2308 02:09:17,880 --> 02:09:20,400 Speaker 1: it's happening there partially because you know, this is like 2309 02:09:21,240 --> 02:09:23,160 Speaker 1: well okay, I don't know off thought in my head 2310 02:09:23,200 --> 02:09:25,800 Speaker 1: whether it's more militarized than Tibet, but like one of 2311 02:09:25,840 --> 02:09:28,200 Speaker 1: the most militarized, like one of the most heavily police 2312 02:09:28,240 --> 02:09:31,240 Speaker 1: places in China. And then also people are just really 2313 02:09:32,000 --> 02:09:35,960 Speaker 1: like the the the immediate and palpable anger seems to 2314 02:09:36,000 --> 02:09:38,280 Speaker 1: be the highest there because you know, I mean, like 2315 02:09:38,760 --> 02:09:41,920 Speaker 1: like it you're you're going to be more piste off 2316 02:09:41,960 --> 02:09:44,000 Speaker 1: when it's people in your city or like you know, 2317 02:09:44,280 --> 02:09:48,040 Speaker 1: you you maybe were like three blocks away from this fire. 2318 02:09:49,040 --> 02:09:53,120 Speaker 1: Yeahs like these people. But yeah, one of one piece 2319 02:09:53,200 --> 02:09:57,040 Speaker 1: about about urch is that they've been in some form 2320 02:09:57,080 --> 02:09:59,520 Speaker 1: of lockdown for like a hundred days, you know. Yeah, 2321 02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:02,560 Speaker 1: so that's not and and part of that has to 2322 02:10:02,680 --> 02:10:05,120 Speaker 1: do with the fact that it is this colonial setting 2323 02:10:05,240 --> 02:10:07,040 Speaker 1: where they feel like they can do things to people 2324 02:10:07,120 --> 02:10:08,960 Speaker 1: that they can't do in Beijing and Chong like people 2325 02:10:09,520 --> 02:10:10,880 Speaker 1: are not going to do that, right, It's just like 2326 02:10:11,240 --> 02:10:14,080 Speaker 1: it's inconceivable. Um, there's obviously a lot of Han people 2327 02:10:14,120 --> 02:10:18,440 Speaker 1: in An She is actually a majority Han, now yeah, 2328 02:10:18,480 --> 02:10:21,520 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, um that that sounds right to me, 2329 02:10:21,840 --> 02:10:25,600 Speaker 1: and shin Jong is increasingly Han as well, although I 2330 02:10:25,720 --> 02:10:29,000 Speaker 1: believe we are still constitute a plurality. So you know, 2331 02:10:29,400 --> 02:10:34,360 Speaker 1: there's just like each the lockdowns kind of filtered down 2332 02:10:34,440 --> 02:10:37,720 Speaker 1: to these different localities and into different communities with their 2333 02:10:37,760 --> 02:10:40,560 Speaker 1: different social and class compositions in different kinds of ways 2334 02:10:40,600 --> 02:10:42,880 Speaker 1: and have different kinds of effects. Right, So you can 2335 02:10:42,920 --> 02:10:45,600 Speaker 1: put people in lockdown in shin Jong for a hundred 2336 02:10:45,720 --> 02:10:48,200 Speaker 1: days and they're going to be really pissed when they 2337 02:10:48,240 --> 02:10:50,480 Speaker 1: get out. In the case of Guang Joe, you know, 2338 02:10:50,880 --> 02:10:52,800 Speaker 1: this was also part of the sequence that I think 2339 02:10:52,880 --> 02:10:55,040 Speaker 1: has been written out of the official narrative. It's not 2340 02:10:55,200 --> 02:10:57,840 Speaker 1: it wasn't just fox Con. You had the initial fox 2341 02:10:57,960 --> 02:11:01,440 Speaker 1: Con escape in in October early in November, and then 2342 02:11:01,480 --> 02:11:04,160 Speaker 1: you had these pretty intense riots that happened in Guangzho. 2343 02:11:04,600 --> 02:11:07,720 Speaker 1: But those were in these urban villages, so called urban villages, 2344 02:11:08,240 --> 02:11:13,480 Speaker 1: largely informal housing, very densely populated, that are overwhelmingly migrant workers. 2345 02:11:13,560 --> 02:11:16,400 Speaker 1: In this case, it was mostly people from Hubei Um, 2346 02:11:16,520 --> 02:11:19,960 Speaker 1: which is which is where Wuhan is and Um and 2347 02:11:20,160 --> 02:11:23,520 Speaker 1: so you know, just those migrant communities were put into 2348 02:11:23,560 --> 02:11:26,440 Speaker 1: lockdown in Guangho. So if you were over in yeah, 2349 02:11:26,480 --> 02:11:29,560 Speaker 1: if you over in Tianaha District, which is the sort 2350 02:11:29,600 --> 02:11:33,040 Speaker 1: of the the newer like fancier part of Guangho with 2351 02:11:33,120 --> 02:11:35,960 Speaker 1: lots of high rises, um, you know, those places were 2352 02:11:36,000 --> 02:11:40,440 Speaker 1: not under lockdown. And so they they put the migrant communities. 2353 02:11:40,520 --> 02:11:43,160 Speaker 1: And I saw some like really not nice stuff, you know, 2354 02:11:43,240 --> 02:11:45,040 Speaker 1: people just being like oh yeah, you know. The the 2355 02:11:45,080 --> 02:11:47,160 Speaker 1: local Guanggo people on the other side of the river 2356 02:11:47,480 --> 02:11:49,920 Speaker 1: are just like going about their life and and they're 2357 02:11:50,120 --> 02:11:52,440 Speaker 1: they're okay with what's happening to the migrants, and the 2358 02:11:52,520 --> 02:11:55,880 Speaker 1: migrants were, as is the case in some of these 2359 02:11:55,920 --> 02:11:59,280 Speaker 1: earlier lockdowns, actually facing real subsistence crisis, like they didn't 2360 02:11:59,320 --> 02:12:01,400 Speaker 1: have enough food to eat, and they couldn't leave to 2361 02:12:01,480 --> 02:12:05,200 Speaker 1: try to get food. Um. So that's why you saw 2362 02:12:05,320 --> 02:12:07,720 Speaker 1: these super intense riots, and that's why you see them 2363 02:12:07,760 --> 02:12:10,280 Speaker 1: confronting the police and you know, screaming at them, throwing 2364 02:12:10,320 --> 02:12:13,640 Speaker 1: things at them. You see tear gas, all of these things, 2365 02:12:13,840 --> 02:12:15,520 Speaker 1: I think. So, I think that's the only place I've 2366 02:12:15,560 --> 02:12:19,080 Speaker 1: seen tear gas so far, like a room. I'm not 2367 02:12:19,680 --> 02:12:21,400 Speaker 1: there may have been a video, I don't I don't 2368 02:12:21,440 --> 02:12:24,320 Speaker 1: remember specifically by the room sheet, but definitely like going 2369 02:12:24,640 --> 02:12:28,280 Speaker 1: only place I've seen that level of repression. Yeah, yeah, no, 2370 02:12:28,360 --> 02:12:30,280 Speaker 1: it was. It was. I mean, you know, the Jung 2371 02:12:30,360 --> 02:12:32,640 Speaker 1: Joe Fox con was probably the most violent and the 2372 02:12:32,720 --> 02:12:36,360 Speaker 1: larger scale. Um, but you know that was it was 2373 02:12:36,400 --> 02:12:39,000 Speaker 1: a little bit different Gwangjoe. It's kind of like smaller streets. 2374 02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:41,960 Speaker 1: They're fighting, you know, street by street. So um yeah, 2375 02:12:42,000 --> 02:12:44,680 Speaker 1: so they have a different experience of people in Shanghai. Again, 2376 02:12:44,760 --> 02:12:47,400 Speaker 1: not to minimize their demands, and I think it's it's 2377 02:12:47,440 --> 02:12:51,880 Speaker 1: important for people to find points of commonality, um against 2378 02:12:51,960 --> 02:12:55,400 Speaker 1: this policy. Um, but it's you know, it's not like 2379 02:12:55,520 --> 02:12:58,160 Speaker 1: that if if you're if you're a middle class person 2380 02:12:58,600 --> 02:13:01,919 Speaker 1: Han person in Shanghai, which is again not to minimize 2381 02:13:01,960 --> 02:13:04,800 Speaker 1: the very real difficulties that those folks have been facing 2382 02:13:04,840 --> 02:13:08,000 Speaker 1: as well. Something this kind of you know, I think 2383 02:13:08,000 --> 02:13:09,720 Speaker 1: that there there's there's like another group of people who 2384 02:13:09,760 --> 02:13:12,240 Speaker 1: should probably talk about a little bit, which is like 2385 02:13:12,800 --> 02:13:16,080 Speaker 1: this sort of downwardly mobile class a business owners who 2386 02:13:16,120 --> 02:13:18,120 Speaker 1: have been kind of just getting a dilated by the lockdowns. 2387 02:13:18,160 --> 02:13:20,360 Speaker 1: And does that that happen in the US too, although 2388 02:13:21,000 --> 02:13:27,760 Speaker 1: the Chinese version of it seems they're like less marginally 2389 02:13:27,840 --> 02:13:31,960 Speaker 1: less absolutely psychotic, like they haven't tried, they haven't tried 2390 02:13:32,040 --> 02:13:36,160 Speaker 1: to like kidnap a governor yet, Like they're not like 2391 02:13:36,240 --> 02:13:41,880 Speaker 1: they're not as fascist as their American counterparts. Yeah, but 2392 02:13:42,080 --> 02:13:44,000 Speaker 1: it's it's it seems it seems like there's a kind 2393 02:13:44,000 --> 02:13:47,280 Speaker 1: of interesting I don't know, there's there's a class dynamic 2394 02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:49,320 Speaker 1: that kind of reminds me of occupy and that you 2395 02:13:49,440 --> 02:13:52,960 Speaker 1: have this sort of like kind of tenuous alliance between 2396 02:13:53,720 --> 02:13:56,760 Speaker 1: like some some parts of the working class, these elite 2397 02:13:56,840 --> 02:14:00,760 Speaker 1: students and like this downwardly mobile middle class. But it 2398 02:14:00,880 --> 02:14:04,800 Speaker 1: strikes me that, you know, I mean, the the sort 2399 02:14:04,800 --> 02:14:07,120 Speaker 1: of defining thing about occupying I think, like the defining 2400 02:14:07,200 --> 02:14:09,720 Speaker 1: thing about the whole sort of two thousand eleven doesn't 2401 02:14:09,720 --> 02:14:12,680 Speaker 1: thirteen wave of protests, was that, like it was it 2402 02:14:12,800 --> 02:14:15,120 Speaker 1: was really really easy to get people together into a 2403 02:14:15,160 --> 02:14:18,040 Speaker 1: physical space, and when when you were in that single 2404 02:14:18,120 --> 02:14:20,080 Speaker 1: physical space, it was like, yeah, it's not it's not 2405 02:14:20,120 --> 02:14:23,400 Speaker 1: like classes appeared, but it was like, you know, it was, 2406 02:14:23,520 --> 02:14:25,280 Speaker 1: it was, it was. It was it was a way 2407 02:14:25,320 --> 02:14:29,520 Speaker 1: in which sort of like classes were mixing and you 2408 02:14:29,560 --> 02:14:31,880 Speaker 1: could form this new kind of like identity based around 2409 02:14:31,920 --> 02:14:33,440 Speaker 1: like what you're doing in this place. And it doesn't 2410 02:14:33,480 --> 02:14:36,360 Speaker 1: really seem like that's possible here. It really seems like, 2411 02:14:37,880 --> 02:14:39,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, like there's this huge like you know, 2412 02:14:40,920 --> 02:14:43,520 Speaker 1: this this this is a protest that is like happening 2413 02:14:43,560 --> 02:14:44,840 Speaker 1: in a lot of different places at the same time. 2414 02:14:44,880 --> 02:14:49,440 Speaker 1: But it's like it doesn't. Yeah, the segments they don't 2415 02:14:49,440 --> 02:14:50,880 Speaker 1: and they don't they don't really have a sort of 2416 02:14:51,000 --> 02:14:53,920 Speaker 1: like cohesive social identity that in a way that you 2417 02:14:54,400 --> 02:14:57,680 Speaker 1: could get out of a bunch of people being in 2418 02:14:57,760 --> 02:15:00,720 Speaker 1: the same place. Yeah. No, I think that's right. I mean, 2419 02:15:00,760 --> 02:15:05,560 Speaker 1: they're spatially segmented. Um. Something someone pointed out on Twitter 2420 02:15:05,640 --> 02:15:08,280 Speaker 1: I can remember who. But they're drawing comparisons to the 2421 02:15:09,400 --> 02:15:12,840 Speaker 1: protests and the kind of the physical arrangements where people 2422 02:15:12,880 --> 02:15:16,000 Speaker 1: are living and so particularly given you know, the online censorship, 2423 02:15:16,120 --> 02:15:18,040 Speaker 1: like that's been really important. So you have these worker 2424 02:15:18,080 --> 02:15:20,760 Speaker 1: dormitories and fox Con like you can organize by actually 2425 02:15:20,800 --> 02:15:23,840 Speaker 1: talking to people with student dormitories, right, Um, and then 2426 02:15:23,840 --> 02:15:26,520 Speaker 1: you have much smaller protests among the you know, the 2427 02:15:26,560 --> 02:15:30,000 Speaker 1: middle class people who are able to circulate things online. 2428 02:15:30,040 --> 02:15:32,120 Speaker 1: And so the consequence of that is is they are 2429 02:15:32,160 --> 02:15:36,200 Speaker 1: pretty segmented. And I think you know, everyone has their 2430 02:15:36,240 --> 02:15:39,240 Speaker 1: own grievance with zero COVID, but these grievances are actually 2431 02:15:39,280 --> 02:15:42,400 Speaker 1: pretty different. Right. So the fox Con workers don't like 2432 02:15:42,480 --> 02:15:44,880 Speaker 1: the closed loop management system where you know, where they 2433 02:15:44,920 --> 02:15:48,520 Speaker 1: can't leave, where where they're subjected to unsafe conditions, etcetera. Um, 2434 02:15:48,720 --> 02:15:51,680 Speaker 1: you know, the petty bourgeoise like they don't like the 2435 02:15:51,760 --> 02:15:54,160 Speaker 1: fact that there's no foot traffic, you know, coming into 2436 02:15:54,160 --> 02:15:57,160 Speaker 1: their shops. Right. And UM, I don't know if you 2437 02:15:57,200 --> 02:15:58,960 Speaker 1: saw the video of the guy like kicking down the 2438 02:15:59,000 --> 02:16:03,280 Speaker 1: wall with a soup latal and yeah, specifically yeah, I 2439 02:16:03,320 --> 02:16:06,160 Speaker 1: mean it was. It was very theatrical and dramatic and 2440 02:16:06,480 --> 02:16:09,120 Speaker 1: uh and a great video you know in terms of 2441 02:16:09,280 --> 02:16:12,480 Speaker 1: like the class position, and yeah, you can see how 2442 02:16:12,520 --> 02:16:16,920 Speaker 1: it can kind of capsize into fash quickly. Um. And 2443 02:16:16,960 --> 02:16:19,160 Speaker 1: then like the students, you know, they want to be 2444 02:16:19,200 --> 02:16:22,080 Speaker 1: able to live normal student lives and like leave their dormitories. 2445 02:16:22,160 --> 02:16:24,040 Speaker 1: And that's the thing that I think students anywhere can 2446 02:16:24,280 --> 02:16:26,800 Speaker 1: associate with. So it's like, yeah, they're all against the 2447 02:16:26,880 --> 02:16:28,880 Speaker 1: zero COVID policy, but then it's kind of like what 2448 02:16:28,960 --> 02:16:32,160 Speaker 1: are their politics after that? And I think if if 2449 02:16:32,280 --> 02:16:35,200 Speaker 1: this is going to open up, um, you know, some 2450 02:16:35,320 --> 02:16:37,880 Speaker 1: kind of more expansive political vision, like, it's gonna be 2451 02:16:37,959 --> 02:16:40,959 Speaker 1: hard to maintain that like that unity. Right. The students 2452 02:16:41,000 --> 02:16:43,960 Speaker 1: are already talking about like you know, censorship, freedom of speech, 2453 02:16:44,240 --> 02:16:46,520 Speaker 1: those things which I support, I think are very good. 2454 02:16:47,320 --> 02:16:49,680 Speaker 1: You're probably not gonna get the petty bougeoisie to like 2455 02:16:50,040 --> 02:16:52,680 Speaker 1: risk arrest and violence with the cops, you know, over 2456 02:16:52,800 --> 02:16:55,760 Speaker 1: like holding up a blank white piece of paper, um, 2457 02:16:56,320 --> 02:16:58,400 Speaker 1: you know. And then the micrant workers have another whole 2458 02:16:58,440 --> 02:17:01,439 Speaker 1: set of things you know, around like basic like health infrastructure, 2459 02:17:01,600 --> 02:17:03,720 Speaker 1: like you know, can they get access to decent healthcare 2460 02:17:03,760 --> 02:17:06,080 Speaker 1: in the places where they're where they're living, and that's 2461 02:17:06,120 --> 02:17:08,080 Speaker 1: not going to resonate to the same extent with the students. 2462 02:17:08,160 --> 02:17:11,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, the one I think about a lot was 2463 02:17:12,040 --> 02:17:13,800 Speaker 1: like that there there's a video going around it this 2464 02:17:13,879 --> 02:17:15,680 Speaker 1: guy being like I don't care about politics, I just 2465 02:17:15,760 --> 02:17:17,400 Speaker 1: want to go to the movies, and I was like, 2466 02:17:17,520 --> 02:17:20,800 Speaker 1: this is the most American person in China, Like this 2467 02:17:20,920 --> 02:17:22,840 Speaker 1: is the one person that I'm like, okay, like that, 2468 02:17:23,000 --> 02:17:24,800 Speaker 1: you know, and and like that there is that kind 2469 02:17:24,879 --> 02:17:26,240 Speaker 1: of sort of like I just I just want to 2470 02:17:26,280 --> 02:17:29,600 Speaker 1: live my normal life like thing that's happening. And then 2471 02:17:29,680 --> 02:17:32,800 Speaker 1: that that I think is a kind of recognizable American impulse. 2472 02:17:32,840 --> 02:17:34,600 Speaker 1: But then you have the stuff that's like did you 2473 02:17:34,600 --> 02:17:36,560 Speaker 1: see did you see those pictures that were going around 2474 02:17:36,920 --> 02:17:40,320 Speaker 1: of like the hospitals they were putting vgicant workers in 2475 02:17:40,400 --> 02:17:42,840 Speaker 1: were just like the entire bathroom floor is just like 2476 02:17:43,200 --> 02:17:47,200 Speaker 1: covered in poop and like no, awful. Yeah, it's like 2477 02:17:47,240 --> 02:17:49,840 Speaker 1: the whole whole bathroom floors is just flooded. There's like 2478 02:17:50,000 --> 02:17:53,560 Speaker 1: just like the the the you can't flush toilet paper 2479 02:17:53,600 --> 02:17:55,560 Speaker 1: down it, so there's just these like mountains of toilet 2480 02:17:55,600 --> 02:17:58,920 Speaker 1: paper and I think like, yeah, it's awful like that 2481 02:17:59,000 --> 02:18:01,000 Speaker 1: the difference between the people whose things are like I 2482 02:18:01,080 --> 02:18:03,240 Speaker 1: want to go to the movies and the people who's 2483 02:18:03,280 --> 02:18:06,840 Speaker 1: demand is like please stop locking me in this like 2484 02:18:07,480 --> 02:18:09,200 Speaker 1: like people like you know that that was I guess. 2485 02:18:09,200 --> 02:18:12,800 Speaker 1: I guess the other sort of lost thing that seemed 2486 02:18:12,840 --> 02:18:14,600 Speaker 1: to be pretty big in Chinese social media that I 2487 02:18:14,640 --> 02:18:18,040 Speaker 1: don't that wasn't talked about much here was the uh 2488 02:18:18,280 --> 02:18:21,640 Speaker 1: there was this bus that capsized that killed like twenty 2489 02:18:21,720 --> 02:18:24,920 Speaker 1: seven people who were being taken like to a facility 2490 02:18:24,959 --> 02:18:27,280 Speaker 1: to specifically to hold, like you know, this is like 2491 02:18:27,360 --> 02:18:30,040 Speaker 1: what one of one of these sort of like I 2492 02:18:30,120 --> 02:18:32,200 Speaker 1: don't I don't even really want to dignify them by 2493 02:18:32,200 --> 02:18:36,560 Speaker 1: calling them hospitals because they're like like just a complete 2494 02:18:36,640 --> 02:18:39,680 Speaker 1: disaster um. But where were people were being held like 2495 02:18:40,000 --> 02:18:43,680 Speaker 1: held because they had yeah, yeah, and I don't know, 2496 02:18:43,920 --> 02:18:46,240 Speaker 1: it seems like that there's a really big sort of 2497 02:18:46,440 --> 02:18:49,320 Speaker 1: like you know, I mean, I guess it's like like 2498 02:18:49,400 --> 02:18:52,920 Speaker 1: the the protests are reflecting all of all of the 2499 02:18:53,000 --> 02:18:57,080 Speaker 1: sort of like existing classified in Chinese society in ways 2500 02:18:57,160 --> 02:18:59,440 Speaker 1: that I think are are pretty obvious if you look 2501 02:18:59,520 --> 02:19:02,920 Speaker 1: at it, which I guess in some sense, like this 2502 02:19:03,680 --> 02:19:06,160 Speaker 1: this does strike me as the most gentlemin esque thing 2503 02:19:06,360 --> 02:19:08,560 Speaker 1: we look. The most unuminous thing about it is the 2504 02:19:08,600 --> 02:19:11,560 Speaker 1: way that the media has been like specifically covering the 2505 02:19:11,640 --> 02:19:14,960 Speaker 1: grievances of exactly like two groups of people, which is 2506 02:19:15,000 --> 02:19:18,440 Speaker 1: like the students and like and then all of the 2507 02:19:18,520 --> 02:19:22,600 Speaker 1: labor stuff has just vanished after about day two. Yeah, yeah, 2508 02:19:22,680 --> 02:19:28,480 Speaker 1: yeah for sure. Um. And I mean I don't have 2509 02:19:28,600 --> 02:19:32,880 Speaker 1: much optimism that that that the coverage will um, but 2510 02:19:33,200 --> 02:19:38,520 Speaker 1: you know, there there is an experience, um that middle 2511 02:19:38,560 --> 02:19:41,800 Speaker 1: class people I think have had pretty acutely going back 2512 02:19:41,840 --> 02:19:45,240 Speaker 1: at least to the Shanghai lockdown, of this realization that 2513 02:19:45,320 --> 02:19:49,400 Speaker 1: there actually are no limits on state power, right, and 2514 02:19:49,520 --> 02:19:52,040 Speaker 1: that to them was kind of like a shock. You know. 2515 02:19:52,120 --> 02:19:53,760 Speaker 1: They're like, oh, like I thought I was just gonna 2516 02:19:53,760 --> 02:19:55,280 Speaker 1: be able to go about my life like as long 2517 02:19:55,320 --> 02:19:57,520 Speaker 1: as I didn't you know, demand to be able to 2518 02:19:57,680 --> 02:20:00,200 Speaker 1: vote for the president. Like I can have a job, job, 2519 02:20:00,280 --> 02:20:02,840 Speaker 1: I can um, you know, go eat hot pot or 2520 02:20:03,040 --> 02:20:04,840 Speaker 1: you know, get whatever kind of delicious food I want. 2521 02:20:04,879 --> 02:20:08,760 Speaker 1: Living in these big cities, can travel internationally. You know, 2522 02:20:08,920 --> 02:20:12,360 Speaker 1: all of these things are you know more or less Okay, Um, 2523 02:20:12,959 --> 02:20:14,680 Speaker 1: there's been lots of you know there's lots of other 2524 02:20:14,720 --> 02:20:17,879 Speaker 1: people in training society for him, that's never been the experience, right, 2525 02:20:18,000 --> 02:20:22,360 Speaker 1: most importantly the minorities and the workers and the migrant 2526 02:20:22,360 --> 02:20:26,080 Speaker 1: workers who have always you know, experienced that raw and 2527 02:20:26,240 --> 02:20:30,000 Speaker 1: unchecked power of the state. And so you know, does 2528 02:20:30,280 --> 02:20:33,600 Speaker 1: does this have the capacity to kind of bring them together? 2529 02:20:34,080 --> 02:20:35,720 Speaker 1: You know, it's going to be extremely difficult to do, 2530 02:20:35,840 --> 02:20:39,000 Speaker 1: especially because there aren't like spaces for political organizing and 2531 02:20:39,120 --> 02:20:42,880 Speaker 1: working through these differences in a constructive way. Yeah, I mean, 2532 02:20:43,040 --> 02:20:45,560 Speaker 1: I will see. The one thing that kind of that 2533 02:20:45,680 --> 02:20:48,960 Speaker 1: strikes me is something that like is just different about 2534 02:20:49,000 --> 02:20:51,800 Speaker 1: this cycle is that, like I don't know, I don't, like, 2535 02:20:51,959 --> 02:20:55,600 Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever seen in my lifetime outside 2536 02:20:55,640 --> 02:21:00,200 Speaker 1: of like really tiny maoist sex like people openly calling 2537 02:21:00,280 --> 02:21:02,800 Speaker 1: for the downfall of the government, like just in in 2538 02:21:03,080 --> 02:21:05,880 Speaker 1: a kind of like a large systemic way, and like 2539 02:21:06,000 --> 02:21:10,000 Speaker 1: it it seems like, I don't know, maybe maybe the 2540 02:21:10,040 --> 02:21:13,879 Speaker 1: censors will sort of get control back, but it really 2541 02:21:14,000 --> 02:21:16,520 Speaker 1: seems like there's been this kind of floodgate that's opened 2542 02:21:17,360 --> 02:21:21,640 Speaker 1: where suddenly, like there's a there's a brief moment where 2543 02:21:21,680 --> 02:21:24,480 Speaker 1: like it suddenly became possible to talk about things where 2544 02:21:24,640 --> 02:21:26,360 Speaker 1: you know, like like two months ago, it was like 2545 02:21:26,920 --> 02:21:29,400 Speaker 1: one guy laid aside on a bridge and like this 2546 02:21:29,560 --> 02:21:30,840 Speaker 1: was this was like the biggest thing that had ever 2547 02:21:30,840 --> 02:21:33,400 Speaker 1: happened in Chinese society whatever, etcetera, etcetera. And then suddenly, 2548 02:21:33,480 --> 02:21:36,160 Speaker 1: like you know, you just have people on the streets 2549 02:21:36,200 --> 02:21:39,039 Speaker 1: are shrun high, like just chanting stuff that wasn't even 2550 02:21:39,160 --> 02:21:42,120 Speaker 1: on that banner, and like, I don't know, like it 2551 02:21:43,000 --> 02:21:47,119 Speaker 1: really seems like like it's it's not like they've actually 2552 02:21:47,240 --> 02:21:49,360 Speaker 1: like fully lost control of the country or anything like, 2553 02:21:49,400 --> 02:21:50,960 Speaker 1: they're not even close to that, but it's it's like 2554 02:21:51,840 --> 02:21:55,000 Speaker 1: the sort of like the sort of regime of terror 2555 02:21:55,080 --> 02:21:56,959 Speaker 1: and fear that had been in place to keep people 2556 02:21:57,000 --> 02:21:58,600 Speaker 1: from doing this kind of stuff has fallen off a 2557 02:21:58,680 --> 02:22:02,600 Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah. I mean, I I'd be very curious 2558 02:22:02,680 --> 02:22:05,600 Speaker 1: to know what the vibe is like in China, and 2559 02:22:05,800 --> 02:22:08,680 Speaker 1: obviously I have not been there for a while. Um, 2560 02:22:09,440 --> 02:22:12,760 Speaker 1: but like, and this is wildly speculative, and if you 2561 02:22:12,800 --> 02:22:15,280 Speaker 1: have any Chinese listeners who want to correct me, I 2562 02:22:15,400 --> 02:22:18,080 Speaker 1: would be glad to have some more information about this. 2563 02:22:18,200 --> 02:22:21,960 Speaker 1: But my feeling from Hofar is that you know, like 2564 02:22:22,120 --> 02:22:25,280 Speaker 1: she Jinping is just like you can't you can't say 2565 02:22:25,320 --> 02:22:28,720 Speaker 1: anything about him, and that even in like private spaces, 2566 02:22:29,280 --> 02:22:32,720 Speaker 1: you know, people just like don't feel like the ability 2567 02:22:32,840 --> 02:22:36,320 Speaker 1: to kind of imagine something different and like that has 2568 02:22:36,400 --> 02:22:39,400 Speaker 1: been changed. Like I don't think we're going to see 2569 02:22:39,400 --> 02:22:41,880 Speaker 1: a lot more people on the streets chanting down to 2570 02:22:42,480 --> 02:22:45,280 Speaker 1: down with the Communist Party like that's you know, it's 2571 02:22:45,280 --> 02:22:47,400 Speaker 1: a risky it's a risky thing to do. But I 2572 02:22:47,480 --> 02:22:49,480 Speaker 1: do think that like now, at least people know that 2573 02:22:49,560 --> 02:22:52,280 Speaker 1: there's other other people in the country that are thinking 2574 02:22:52,360 --> 02:22:55,240 Speaker 1: the same things that they're thinking. And then at least 2575 02:22:55,360 --> 02:22:58,920 Speaker 1: within you know, like you know, face to face interactions, 2576 02:22:59,360 --> 02:23:01,560 Speaker 1: that people might be a little bit more willing to 2577 02:23:01,680 --> 02:23:04,600 Speaker 1: kind of say like, oh, like these protests happened, that 2578 02:23:04,680 --> 02:23:07,440 Speaker 1: was pretty crazy, Like let's talk about that, um and 2579 02:23:07,640 --> 02:23:10,160 Speaker 1: so so so that to me is optimistic. UM. And 2580 02:23:10,240 --> 02:23:12,760 Speaker 1: I do hope that more of this organizing can take place, 2581 02:23:13,320 --> 02:23:15,480 Speaker 1: you know, offline, because I think that's the only safe 2582 02:23:15,520 --> 02:23:18,520 Speaker 1: way to do it. Um. So So, yeah, I I 2583 02:23:19,520 --> 02:23:22,560 Speaker 1: think something has changed significantly, and you see it here, 2584 02:23:22,800 --> 02:23:24,880 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I've been teaching Chinese students for 2585 02:23:24,959 --> 02:23:28,320 Speaker 1: ten years. Um, there's no question that people are interested, 2586 02:23:28,800 --> 02:23:31,600 Speaker 1: um in talking about things now in a in a 2587 02:23:31,680 --> 02:23:33,760 Speaker 1: more open way than was the case a couple of 2588 02:23:33,879 --> 02:23:35,720 Speaker 1: years ago. And like Herett Cornell, we had we had 2589 02:23:35,720 --> 02:23:39,480 Speaker 1: a little vigil for um Fer and she as well, 2590 02:23:39,840 --> 02:23:42,440 Speaker 1: and people were chanting, you know, down with Hi Jin 2591 02:23:42,480 --> 02:23:45,160 Speaker 1: ping Um, which is kind of like okay, you're you know, 2592 02:23:45,240 --> 02:23:47,480 Speaker 1: you're the good New York Like it's not dangerous. Well, 2593 02:23:47,600 --> 02:23:50,920 Speaker 1: I think students feel it to be dangerous, And definitely 2594 02:23:51,480 --> 02:23:53,200 Speaker 1: a month or two ago would have felt it to 2595 02:23:53,320 --> 02:23:56,680 Speaker 1: be quite dangerous. So yeah, and I guess we probably 2596 02:23:56,720 --> 02:24:00,760 Speaker 1: shouldn't like completely downplay the fact that like the CCP 2597 02:24:01,000 --> 02:24:04,760 Speaker 1: has international networks in a way that's like the way 2598 02:24:04,800 --> 02:24:06,720 Speaker 1: it tends to get covered in the press is very 2599 02:24:06,879 --> 02:24:09,720 Speaker 1: sort of like this kind of like right wing fear mongering. 2600 02:24:09,760 --> 02:24:12,400 Speaker 1: But was like, no, these people do exist, and like, yeah, 2601 02:24:12,480 --> 02:24:15,120 Speaker 1: like it is possible for you to like tweet something 2602 02:24:15,160 --> 02:24:17,960 Speaker 1: while you're in the US and then like someone in 2603 02:24:18,080 --> 02:24:20,040 Speaker 1: China finds out about it and things start to go 2604 02:24:20,200 --> 02:24:22,960 Speaker 1: very badly for you very quickly, And that's for sure, 2605 02:24:23,120 --> 02:24:25,960 Speaker 1: Like that's that's that's a real danger that yeah, and 2606 02:24:26,400 --> 02:24:30,280 Speaker 1: regardless of how many spies there are, how pervasive they are, 2607 02:24:30,480 --> 02:24:33,760 Speaker 1: like it is a real experience, real fear of the 2608 02:24:33,840 --> 02:24:37,640 Speaker 1: Chinese students here have right, they don't feel comfortable. You know, 2609 02:24:37,840 --> 02:24:40,600 Speaker 1: they might feel more comfortable speaking openly here than they 2610 02:24:40,680 --> 02:24:44,119 Speaker 1: do actually within China, but they still don't feel totally free, 2611 02:24:44,240 --> 02:24:47,760 Speaker 1: and and that is a very widespread sentiment. I guess, 2612 02:24:48,040 --> 02:24:51,640 Speaker 1: sort of enclosing, I don't know, my, I don't think 2613 02:24:51,680 --> 02:24:56,560 Speaker 1: anyone can really have much of an analysis that's better 2614 02:24:56,640 --> 02:24:59,360 Speaker 1: than them guessing about what's going to happen next, because 2615 02:25:00,080 --> 02:25:04,200 Speaker 1: this already was something that like two weeks ago, like 2616 02:25:04,320 --> 02:25:07,320 Speaker 1: if you'd ask anyone, like anyone in China or outside 2617 02:25:07,320 --> 02:25:09,840 Speaker 1: of China who wasn't like I don't know, like in 2618 02:25:09,920 --> 02:25:12,119 Speaker 1: the following Gong or something, whether whether they were suddenly 2619 02:25:12,160 --> 02:25:14,959 Speaker 1: going to be large deal like protested China, everyone would 2620 02:25:14,959 --> 02:25:18,600 Speaker 1: have been like, are you nuts? But yeah, I'm wondering 2621 02:25:18,640 --> 02:25:23,240 Speaker 1: how what you think is going to happen next? I 2622 02:25:23,280 --> 02:25:25,880 Speaker 1: don't know. My my, my sort of tentative read of 2623 02:25:25,959 --> 02:25:30,920 Speaker 1: it was like, it seems like I don't know. It's 2624 02:25:30,959 --> 02:25:32,680 Speaker 1: it seems to me that for for a very very 2625 02:25:32,840 --> 02:25:36,120 Speaker 1: long time, the Chinese political system was specifically set up 2626 02:25:36,120 --> 02:25:38,520 Speaker 1: to stop this, like like this was this was the 2627 02:25:38,600 --> 02:25:40,440 Speaker 1: exact thing. It was. It was designed to make sure 2628 02:25:40,440 --> 02:25:42,840 Speaker 1: there would never be another sort of like like that 2629 02:25:42,920 --> 02:25:46,120 Speaker 1: there would never be a large well you know, we 2630 02:25:46,160 --> 02:25:48,280 Speaker 1: don't know how how long this is going to go on, right, 2631 02:25:48,320 --> 02:25:49,920 Speaker 1: but there was there was never there was never supposed 2632 02:25:49,959 --> 02:25:53,800 Speaker 1: to be another street movement that was like coordinated between cities, 2633 02:25:54,200 --> 02:25:56,920 Speaker 1: that was large and that had real political demands. And 2634 02:25:57,720 --> 02:26:01,000 Speaker 1: you know, I like, I I don't know. Maybe maybe 2635 02:26:01,000 --> 02:26:02,879 Speaker 1: I could, I could be the most brog I've ever been, 2636 02:26:02,959 --> 02:26:06,520 Speaker 1: but I cannot imagine this like this specific round of 2637 02:26:06,560 --> 02:26:11,840 Speaker 1: protests really like challenging the government at all, Like I 2638 02:26:11,920 --> 02:26:15,560 Speaker 1: don't know, some something something would have to like I 2639 02:26:15,600 --> 02:26:17,520 Speaker 1: don't know, like aliens would have to like descend from 2640 02:26:17,560 --> 02:26:20,960 Speaker 1: the sky or something like. I don't know. I don't like, 2641 02:26:21,080 --> 02:26:22,280 Speaker 1: I don't I don't think they can do it. But 2642 02:26:22,959 --> 02:26:25,760 Speaker 1: the frequency at which these kinds of things break out 2643 02:26:26,800 --> 02:26:29,320 Speaker 1: has been increasing steadily for the past probably twenty or 2644 02:26:29,360 --> 02:26:31,000 Speaker 1: thirty years. I mean in the nineties are sort of 2645 02:26:31,040 --> 02:26:34,160 Speaker 1: a low point for this stuff. But you know, like 2646 02:26:34,360 --> 02:26:38,080 Speaker 1: if if you're if you're in a country like Ecuador, right, 2647 02:26:38,440 --> 02:26:43,720 Speaker 1: You've seen like two pretty large scale like mass street 2648 02:26:43,800 --> 02:26:48,480 Speaker 1: movements in like three years, right, And you know it's 2649 02:26:48,520 --> 02:26:50,000 Speaker 1: it's it's, it's, it's. It seems to be sort of 2650 02:26:50,160 --> 02:26:53,600 Speaker 1: broadly the there's there, there's, there's been this sort of 2651 02:26:53,720 --> 02:26:57,160 Speaker 1: like the decaying economic conditions are combined with this like 2652 02:26:57,320 --> 02:27:01,640 Speaker 1: the general decaying ability of the state to prevent like 2653 02:27:01,879 --> 02:27:05,160 Speaker 1: a subsequent movement from from unfolding. And so I don't know, 2654 02:27:05,280 --> 02:27:08,160 Speaker 1: Like I I my senses that this one's not gonna 2655 02:27:08,160 --> 02:27:10,360 Speaker 1: do anything, but we might see another one of these 2656 02:27:10,440 --> 02:27:15,440 Speaker 1: in like three years or something. Yeah, I don't think 2657 02:27:15,560 --> 02:27:18,000 Speaker 1: we're going to see this movement in the in the 2658 02:27:18,080 --> 02:27:21,320 Speaker 1: weeks and months to come to like cohere into this 2659 02:27:21,560 --> 02:27:26,040 Speaker 1: like massive politically potent force that has the capacity to 2660 02:27:26,360 --> 02:27:30,480 Speaker 1: either continue to exert demands on the central state or 2661 02:27:30,680 --> 02:27:32,840 Speaker 1: threatened state power. Like, I don't think that that's going 2662 02:27:32,879 --> 02:27:36,400 Speaker 1: to happen. Um, I do think. I think I think 2663 02:27:36,440 --> 02:27:39,520 Speaker 1: the first thing is to acknowledge and to chalk up 2664 02:27:39,600 --> 02:27:43,520 Speaker 1: the victories that have already been Um one, So Fox 2665 02:27:43,920 --> 02:27:45,760 Speaker 1: foxne workers got paid, you know, they went out the 2666 02:27:45,920 --> 02:27:49,840 Speaker 1: rioted like Fox's like, here's ten thousand un for you 2667 02:27:49,920 --> 02:27:52,360 Speaker 1: to leave that even for you to do your job right, 2668 02:27:52,480 --> 02:27:54,480 Speaker 1: so like, and those were workers that came in after 2669 02:27:54,560 --> 02:27:56,520 Speaker 1: the other workers escaped so they have been there in 2670 02:27:56,600 --> 02:27:59,040 Speaker 1: quarantine for like a couple of days. Rioted got ten 2671 02:27:59,080 --> 02:28:02,320 Speaker 1: thousand un which is almost U S. Dollars like they 2672 02:28:02,440 --> 02:28:06,440 Speaker 1: so so they did really well. Um And but I 2673 02:28:06,520 --> 02:28:09,480 Speaker 1: think more broadly, you know, around the zero COVID, the 2674 02:28:09,560 --> 02:28:12,680 Speaker 1: government has already made changes. They will never acknowledge we're 2675 02:28:12,720 --> 02:28:15,920 Speaker 1: doing this because people protested, like that's not how they operate. 2676 02:28:16,440 --> 02:28:19,280 Speaker 1: But um, you know, they said, Okay, we're actually gonna 2677 02:28:19,320 --> 02:28:21,800 Speaker 1: get more serious about vaccinating people, which is what they 2678 02:28:21,879 --> 02:28:24,360 Speaker 1: need to do in order to have sort of an 2679 02:28:24,440 --> 02:28:28,320 Speaker 1: exit strategy. There have been some some signals, low key 2680 02:28:28,400 --> 02:28:31,120 Speaker 1: ones about further loosening. I mean, I think that there's 2681 02:28:31,120 --> 02:28:32,760 Speaker 1: a real question about how they go about doing this 2682 02:28:32,920 --> 02:28:34,879 Speaker 1: because if they just let it rip tomorrow, like actually, 2683 02:28:35,120 --> 02:28:38,320 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of people will die. Yeah. So like 2684 02:28:38,480 --> 02:28:40,560 Speaker 1: I think what they need to do is they need 2685 02:28:40,600 --> 02:28:42,800 Speaker 1: to vaccinate people, and they need to build a real 2686 02:28:42,879 --> 02:28:46,560 Speaker 1: public health infrastructure that includes migrant workers. But you know, 2687 02:28:46,720 --> 02:28:50,280 Speaker 1: that's we'll see if that happens. So so I think 2688 02:28:50,280 --> 02:28:52,880 Speaker 1: that those are already victories like which which we should 2689 02:28:53,080 --> 02:28:55,400 Speaker 1: which you know, we should take account of. And I 2690 02:28:55,480 --> 02:29:00,200 Speaker 1: think moving forward, the ability to repress like the the 2691 02:29:00,920 --> 02:29:04,400 Speaker 1: street demonstrations should not be under underestimated, like the state 2692 02:29:04,480 --> 02:29:07,440 Speaker 1: has immense resources at its capacity. I don't think that 2693 02:29:07,480 --> 02:29:09,960 Speaker 1: we're going to continue to see people chanting, you know, 2694 02:29:10,040 --> 02:29:12,800 Speaker 1: down with the Communist Party in the streets regularly. Um 2695 02:29:12,959 --> 02:29:15,040 Speaker 1: So I think that they'll be able to at least 2696 02:29:15,080 --> 02:29:17,760 Speaker 1: push that down a little bit and maybe with some concessions, 2697 02:29:17,800 --> 02:29:20,400 Speaker 1: people will be satisfied. You know, the guy who just 2698 02:29:20,440 --> 02:29:21,720 Speaker 1: wants to be able to go to the movie, like 2699 02:29:22,000 --> 02:29:23,920 Speaker 1: next year this time, there's a good chance he will 2700 02:29:24,000 --> 02:29:26,720 Speaker 1: just be able to go to the movies. To kind 2701 02:29:26,720 --> 02:29:29,560 Speaker 1: of continue with my labor centric perspective, though, I think 2702 02:29:29,600 --> 02:29:32,440 Speaker 1: it's going to be harder for for workers. I think 2703 02:29:32,480 --> 02:29:34,160 Speaker 1: it's going to be harder for them to repress that 2704 02:29:34,640 --> 02:29:36,800 Speaker 1: as long as the closed loop management systems are in 2705 02:29:36,879 --> 02:29:39,440 Speaker 1: effect and lockdowns are happening. I mean, it just puts 2706 02:29:39,600 --> 02:29:43,440 Speaker 1: insane demands on these workers, and there were revolts against 2707 02:29:43,520 --> 02:29:46,400 Speaker 1: it when it first happened in Shanghai back in April, 2708 02:29:46,800 --> 02:29:49,680 Speaker 1: uh and I think that those will continue to exist. 2709 02:29:50,440 --> 02:29:52,400 Speaker 1: Um but I think we'll probably see this kind of 2710 02:29:52,520 --> 02:29:58,160 Speaker 1: reversion to what's existed for the last couple of decades, 2711 02:29:58,160 --> 02:30:01,800 Speaker 1: which is lots of you know, small scale, somewhat manageable 2712 02:30:01,879 --> 02:30:06,120 Speaker 1: and localized protests. The question is, like, does this kind 2713 02:30:06,160 --> 02:30:10,320 Speaker 1: of open up, um the possibility of politicization, which we 2714 02:30:10,400 --> 02:30:14,440 Speaker 1: have not really seen since nine um in a in 2715 02:30:14,480 --> 02:30:17,400 Speaker 1: a robust way at least, And so does this kind 2716 02:30:17,440 --> 02:30:20,280 Speaker 1: of open up some of those possibilities so those local 2717 02:30:20,480 --> 02:30:22,960 Speaker 1: protests can begin to to speak to each other with 2718 02:30:23,080 --> 02:30:27,200 Speaker 1: some sort of common language. UM, and and coher some 2719 02:30:27,280 --> 02:30:29,960 Speaker 1: kind of political force that's harder for the state to tame. UM. 2720 02:30:30,720 --> 02:30:33,160 Speaker 1: We'll see. Yeah, And I guess I guess the other 2721 02:30:33,240 --> 02:30:36,680 Speaker 1: sort of X factor here is like can can can 2722 02:30:36,760 --> 02:30:41,680 Speaker 1: the CCP get the growth rate above like five? But yeah, 2723 02:30:41,920 --> 02:30:44,800 Speaker 1: like yeah, I I I don't. I don't know how 2724 02:30:44,840 --> 02:30:47,400 Speaker 1: they do it like that. I don't know, like I 2725 02:30:47,720 --> 02:30:51,200 Speaker 1: I short of like short of like actually just letting 2726 02:30:51,320 --> 02:30:54,880 Speaker 1: all of the sort of like like all all of 2727 02:30:54,959 --> 02:30:58,160 Speaker 1: the sort of like slack and excess capacity just get 2728 02:30:58,440 --> 02:31:00,560 Speaker 1: like you know, just just like intention like tanking the 2729 02:31:00,720 --> 02:31:02,959 Speaker 1: entire economy and just like running all of these sort 2730 02:31:03,000 --> 02:31:04,640 Speaker 1: of unprofitab business in the ground. Like yeah, I don't, 2731 02:31:04,640 --> 02:31:06,720 Speaker 1: I don't see how they do that. And that does 2732 02:31:06,760 --> 02:31:08,280 Speaker 1: seem to me, like you know, to be a kind 2733 02:31:08,320 --> 02:31:12,600 Speaker 1: of like the sort of like looming horizon over. I 2734 02:31:12,640 --> 02:31:14,440 Speaker 1: mean this and this is really true of everyone, like 2735 02:31:14,520 --> 02:31:19,160 Speaker 1: the the sort of looming horizon over. Like every government 2736 02:31:19,320 --> 02:31:21,360 Speaker 1: in the world has been that the growth rate has 2737 02:31:21,360 --> 02:31:24,960 Speaker 1: been collapsing for like the last forty years. And China was, 2738 02:31:25,080 --> 02:31:26,680 Speaker 1: you know, trying to change the comedy was like the 2739 02:31:26,800 --> 02:31:31,160 Speaker 1: last thing that was really driving in and that's like 2740 02:31:31,280 --> 02:31:35,400 Speaker 1: not really true anymore. It's it's a disaster. I mean. 2741 02:31:35,520 --> 02:31:37,680 Speaker 1: And then even even without COVID, it was sort of 2742 02:31:37,760 --> 02:31:42,240 Speaker 1: like not going great. I mean, it wasn't like you know, 2743 02:31:42,280 --> 02:31:45,360 Speaker 1: I mean, it hadn't reached like it hadn't like reached 2744 02:31:45,400 --> 02:31:48,240 Speaker 1: like you know, like recession or i hadn't really reached 2745 02:31:48,240 --> 02:31:52,320 Speaker 1: like sort of post industrialized country levels of like here's 2746 02:31:52,320 --> 02:31:54,280 Speaker 1: your two percent growth every year, be happy with it, 2747 02:31:54,400 --> 02:31:58,600 Speaker 1: but like I don't know, yeah, but but the growth, 2748 02:31:58,800 --> 02:32:01,880 Speaker 1: I mean this is maybe like another whole conversation, but 2749 02:32:02,040 --> 02:32:05,640 Speaker 1: like the growth has become less effective, right, It's just 2750 02:32:05,959 --> 02:32:09,240 Speaker 1: it's this like investment led growth. It's there, there's massive 2751 02:32:09,280 --> 02:32:13,560 Speaker 1: growth in debt and they can you know, build another bridge, 2752 02:32:13,560 --> 02:32:16,440 Speaker 1: build another airport, building. I mean, they're not building the 2753 02:32:16,520 --> 02:32:20,000 Speaker 1: apartment blocks as much anymore. But they do that they 2754 02:32:20,040 --> 02:32:22,400 Speaker 1: can prop up the growth a little bit, right, But 2755 02:32:22,840 --> 02:32:25,880 Speaker 1: like the fundamental problem that they've been unable to address 2756 02:32:26,000 --> 02:32:28,680 Speaker 1: is like increasing domestic consumption and having a more equitable 2757 02:32:28,760 --> 02:32:30,560 Speaker 1: model of growth, And the reason that they can't do 2758 02:32:30,640 --> 02:32:33,240 Speaker 1: that is fundamentally a political problem, Like they can't figure 2759 02:32:33,240 --> 02:32:36,520 Speaker 1: out a way to give working class people more money 2760 02:32:36,879 --> 02:32:40,480 Speaker 1: and to give them some social protections, um and like 2761 02:32:41,200 --> 02:32:44,760 Speaker 1: until they resolve that political problem, Like I just don't 2762 02:32:44,920 --> 02:32:47,640 Speaker 1: see them being able to deal with with that economic problem. 2763 02:32:47,720 --> 02:32:49,600 Speaker 1: So that means you are going to continue to have 2764 02:32:49,800 --> 02:32:53,440 Speaker 1: this kind of ongoing forms of stagnation. Zero COVID really 2765 02:32:53,560 --> 02:32:55,720 Speaker 1: hurts it a lot more. Of course, the geo political 2766 02:32:55,800 --> 02:32:58,959 Speaker 1: conflict with the US and and Biden, you know, trying 2767 02:32:59,000 --> 02:33:02,000 Speaker 1: to economically unique at them like that doesn't help. And 2768 02:33:02,080 --> 02:33:04,640 Speaker 1: then the demographics of you know, like all of these 2769 02:33:04,720 --> 02:33:07,760 Speaker 1: things are making making their lives much more difficult. And 2770 02:33:07,879 --> 02:33:12,360 Speaker 1: so one way to interpret what's happened um under under 2771 02:33:12,480 --> 02:33:16,160 Speaker 1: zero COVID is the expansion of a massive and terrifying 2772 02:33:16,280 --> 02:33:20,000 Speaker 1: surveillance state that will allow them to weather whatever political 2773 02:33:20,120 --> 02:33:24,400 Speaker 1: storms are coming in the future. Yeah, and I guess 2774 02:33:24,400 --> 02:33:26,960 Speaker 1: I don't know well well well, well, well well we'll see, 2775 02:33:27,040 --> 02:33:29,320 Speaker 1: we'll see whether that works for them. I am somewhat 2776 02:33:29,360 --> 02:33:33,160 Speaker 1: skeptical in that, like I don't know, like good luck, 2777 02:33:34,320 --> 02:33:37,000 Speaker 1: actually terrible luck. I hope it goes badly for them, 2778 02:33:37,120 --> 02:33:41,880 Speaker 1: the worst of luck. Yeah. So, Eli, thank you so 2779 02:33:42,000 --> 02:33:44,840 Speaker 1: much for coming on the show. Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Yeah. 2780 02:33:44,920 --> 02:33:47,880 Speaker 1: And okay, where where can people find you and find 2781 02:33:48,200 --> 02:33:51,680 Speaker 1: the stuff that you do? Uh well, I'm on Twitter 2782 02:33:52,200 --> 02:33:55,600 Speaker 1: as long as it's still there, um Eli D Friedman 2783 02:33:56,160 --> 02:34:02,920 Speaker 1: And uh yeah, I'm on the Internet. I don't know, 2784 02:34:03,000 --> 02:34:05,080 Speaker 1: that's that's the main place. Come if you're in Ithaca, 2785 02:34:05,240 --> 02:34:08,000 Speaker 1: come on by, all right. Yeah, this this has been 2786 02:34:08,040 --> 02:34:12,400 Speaker 1: Make it Happen here, drag every government into perpetual and 2787 02:34:12,520 --> 02:34:18,240 Speaker 1: terminal crisis until it stops existing. Hey, we'll be back 2788 02:34:18,320 --> 02:34:21,520 Speaker 1: Monday with more episodes every week from now until the 2789 02:34:21,560 --> 02:34:24,080 Speaker 1: heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is 2790 02:34:24,080 --> 02:34:26,760 Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 2791 02:34:26,800 --> 02:34:29,680 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 2792 02:34:29,879 --> 02:34:31,600 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart radio app, 2793 02:34:31,600 --> 02:34:34,800 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 2794 02:34:34,840 --> 02:34:37,520 Speaker 1: find sources for it Could Happen here updated monthly at 2795 02:34:37,560 --> 02:34:40,760 Speaker 1: cool Zone media dot com slash sources, Thanks for listening.