WEBVTT - Bone Valley Q&A with Gilbert King and Kelsey Decker - Hosted by Maggie Freleng 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:03.080 Hello, y'all. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.600 I'm Maggie Freeling, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and the host 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.399 of Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling, And this is a 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:13.080 bonus episode of Bone Valley. So I'm here with Gilbert 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.680 King and Kelsey Decker and I'm going to ask them 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.480 some of my questions, some of your questions all about 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:23.840 the behind the scenes of Bone Valley. So, Gilbert and Kelsey. 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:25.439 Hello, Hey, Maggie, how you doing. 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:27.720 I'm good. How are y'all good? 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:28.400 Really good? 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.680 So one of my first questions is, as someone who 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:35.560 has done projects like this, it takes a lot of time. 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:38.640 But you guys started working on this quite a while ago. 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:41.080 So can you tell me when you started working on 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:43.040 this how much time you spent in Florida? 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:44.080 What was that like? 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.199 Yeah, I'll say it took us over four years to 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:49.559 do this. So you know, obviously we worked through COVID 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:51.960 and so that that sort of slowed us down. There 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:53.880 were a few things that slowed us down. We were 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.279 trying to reach Jeremy Scott and he was constantly being 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:00.120 put in disciplinary confinement, and then with COVID, so there 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:02.120 we were a lot of waiting around as well. But 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:04.840 I would say we kept ourselves pretty busy with this. 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:06.880 We had the extra time. We were a lot of waiting, 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.040 so we just tried to do more and more research 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.520 and just keep digging. And so that was our experience. 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:12.920 Why it took so long. 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.600 Right, and because I remember at one point you said like, oh, 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:17.839 this is a letter, you know, from our first letter 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:20.039 to Jeremy, and like, what was it twenty nineteen you 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:21.959 wrote him or twenty eighteen. 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:23.479 Yeah, I think it was like I think the first 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:25.760 time we wrote him was like early twenty twenty, like 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.400 during the pandemic, and he didn't respond for seven months, 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:30.720 and I think we sent out a bunch of letters 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:32.400 finally just started writing back to us. 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:34.800 So and you guys moved to Florida. 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:37.319 Go ahead, Calsey, you can tell about the big movie 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:38.240 with your pickup truck. 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:42.640 Yeah, yeah, I mean we moved to Florida for about 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:47.600 three months. So it was the summer of twenty nineteen. Yeah, 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:50.400 I have, yeah, summer of twenty nineteen, so we were 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.960 there for a few months. We are kind of like 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:58.000 home base. There was Saint Petersburg. We weren't entirely sure. 0:01:58.080 --> 0:01:59.880 We wanted to spend all of our time in like, 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.000 but we were making the drive back and forth quite 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:07.720 a bit. But yeah, it was it was an interesting 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.840 start to like the real reporting in the case, just 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:12.960 you know, being down there in the midst of it. 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:16.120 So it's kind of important to do that, you know, 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:18.800 when I did my podcast Murder and Alliance, which was 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:22.079 investigating a wrongful conviction. I pretty much lived in Ohio 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:25.400 for a good year. Did locals know you guys? 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:26.160 Like, what was that? 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:26.440 Like? 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:29.840 Yeah, we would run into the same people our home 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.320 base a lot of times. We would drive It was 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:34.560 about forty five minutes from Saint Pete to Lakeland, and 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.840 our home base became the Lakeland Public Library, and they 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:39.520 actually gave us a room in there that we would 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.079 use for interviews. So it worked out really well. And 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.120 there's also some a lot of research to do in 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.720 Lakeland from you know, historical research that was right in 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.720 the library. But I remember that as just being a 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:51.880 lot of fun and every morning, like just getting up 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.919 and you know, drinking coffee on the way, going across 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.799 the Skyway bridge and just driving to Lakeland and just 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.120 like doing prep in the car for the interview is 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.040 that we have to do that day and I just 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:05.160 it was really a fun like commute to actually have 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.680 to do that, and I think, yeah, we started running 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:09.800 into a lot of people that we'd known. There was 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:11.840 one point, I don't know if you remember this Kelsey, 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:13.880 where I was kind of not paying attention and I 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.200 almost ran over a guy around one of those lakes, 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:21.680 and he was like, I just spoke. I did a 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.799 talk down there, some legal talk, and we made eye 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:26.960 contact and I knew I know him, and I sent 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:28.600 him a little quick email. I said, hey, sorry, I 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:30.400 think I just tried to run you over, and he 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:31.800 was like, I knew that was you. 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:32.959 Don't worry about it. 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:38.480 So listeners do want to know, though, if Gilbert, your 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:43.160 familiarity with Florida from your other book, Devil and the Grove, if. 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.680 Any of those connections helped you with this case. 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:48.600 Yeah, I would. I would definitely say they did. You know, 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.040 there's a lot of people like I did two books 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.400 down there, so I've spent about fifteen years down there 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:55.480 in this part of central Florida, and so. 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:56.520 A lot of people know me. 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:59.440 And I think there's like a benefit to having some connections, 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.000 Like you know, sometimes we'll be writing something and trying 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.160 to figure out something in terms of like a Supreme 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.920 Court Florida's Supreme Court decision, and I'm not really entirely 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.640 sure what the you know, what to make of the decision, 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.120 And like there are I'm friendly with some of the 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:15.520 Florida Supreme Court justices, so I can actually call them 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.440 up and say, hey, can you explain your opinion in 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:20.440 that particular case. And so there's a lot of that 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.920 local stuff that I think really paid off. And same 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.080 with just having going down there and speaking all the time, 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:28.560 I run into a lot of people that I know, 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:30.120 and they seem more eager to help me. 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:36.400 I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely So Kelsey, this was all 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.200 really new to you. You were pretty much just out 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.600 of college and now you're eyeballs deep in a really 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:48.680 crazy wrongful conviction case, murder case, another murder case. 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.200 What was all this like for you? 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:54.719 You know, I just kind of had to take it 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:59.239 a day at a time sometimes because yeah, every phase 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:03.520 of this project was something just entirely new for me. 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:09.799 But you know, having having Gilbert there there was always support. Yeah, 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.479 he was my cheerleader every step of the way. So yeah, 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.440 I mean it was an amazing experience. Like first job. 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:21.280 I think this is you know, maybe kind of a 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:23.839 dream job for a lot of people, and here I am, 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.880 like right out of college, just diving right into it. 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:28.960 So I felt very lucky in a lot of ways. 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.599 But there were definitely moments where I felt I was 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.840 in a little over my head having to kind of 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.359 learn some of the stuff as I went along. But 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:43.120 here I am, I made it, and I am, you know, 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.719 really happy I've been able to see it through to 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.120 the end. And yeah, I mean I just care so 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.360 much about the story. It was something I just you know, 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.360 was very motivated to continue learning and committing to and 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:58.120 putting everything I could into it. 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:02.599 So how did your relationship the two of you? How 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.440 did it change over the course of four years? I 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:09.320 mean that's a long time. And Kelsey, again, like you 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:11.880 were very new, so I'm sure by the end you 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:13.600 were a rock star investigator. 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:15.240 But so how did it all change? 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:16.000 Yeah? 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:17.680 Well, I think, you know, part of the thing with 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:19.560 this is like I have a lot of researchers and 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:21.680 they're based in New York, and they're actually guys who 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.240 are older than me, and like it just for them 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.320 to just upend themselves and move down to Florida was 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:28.839 just not going to happen for them. You know, they 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.279 had families, they have commitments, and and so you really 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.880 need somebody who has the flexibility to do something like this, 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:38.920 and so I think Kelsey came in as a researcher. 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.520 Basically I had a couple different projects going, and I 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.320 remember specifically I was trying to decide, like there was 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:47.800 a TV thing, a new book, and I was trying 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:51.000 to prioritize, and then Leo's case came across my desk 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:53.359 and Kelsey started looking into it, and I remember there 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:55.480 was a moment I said, well, Kelsey, like what what 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.279 do you think I should prioritize what project? And I 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.159 remember her specifically saying like, well, it looks like there's 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.880 an innocent man in prison that one. And it just 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.240 like this moment of clarity, like yeah, of course we 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:08.440 have to do that one. And so that was really 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.679 an inspiration to get going. And you know, Kelsey started 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.720 as a researcher, but because like we decided to pivot 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.840 to a podcast while we were down there, you know, 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.320 she had to learn all the audio recording and sort 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.160 of was all self taught, and so like she's moving 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.920 through this going from researcher to you know, audio recordists 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.920 to producer and all these different skills that she had 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.000 to learn for this job. So I really need somebody 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.560 flexible in, somebody who's not afraid of learning. 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:36.160 And she was it. 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.040 Wow, would you agree with all that, Kelsey? 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:43.200 I guess, so yeah, I didn't have much to lose 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.360 with upending my entire life and going down to Florida 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:48.320 and learning everything on the job. 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:51.160 Well, were you nervous like to go down just like 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.280 you and Gilbert that he's a terrifying human, but like 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.080 you know, I'm you didn't know him that well, Like, 0:07:57.240 --> 0:07:59.880 was that weird to start off, just like the two of. 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:03.000 You, Yeah, it was. It was a little weird, but 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.880 we fell into like a rhythm pretty quickly. I mean 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.880 by that time, we'd already we were already both like 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:15.200 very invested in this case and this story. So yeah, 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:18.200 I mean we we were so obsessed with it at 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:22.040 that point. We were talking about it constantly, and so 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:26.720 like it felt pretty natural after a little time passed. 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.880 And I'm actually I was born in Florida, so also, 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:34.679 like the landscape there was kind of familiar to me. 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:37.040 I have some family down there, so there was like 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.640 a little bit of familiarity in that aspect as well. 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:42.520 Well, that's what I was going to ask you. So 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.840 where were you both like coming from? You were coming 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.440 from New York, Gilbert, is that are you from New York? 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:50.760 Yeah, I'm originally from upstate New York, but I've been 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:52.240 in I've been in New York for the last thirty 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.760 something years, so yeah, I'm a New Yorker. But yeah, 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:57.960 you know, and I'm really used to Florida. I think 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.280 there was some you know, weird things of like when 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.760 we were like basically roommates for a couple months, and 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.199 like I think Kelsey was like, am I supposed to cook? 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:09.480 Is that part of my chob realize like he doesn't cook. 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:10.800 He just eats out all the time. 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:11.800 It's true. 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:17.480 Yeah New York, Yeah exactly, but but yeah, I just 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.080 it was it was it was an adjustment, especially but 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.760 once we built into the schedule and like we'd stay home, 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.160 do all the phone calls, do all the prep work there, 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:27.200 and then just go out in the field in Lakeland, 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:28.920 And it was really nice to be able to get 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.000 away from Polk County and just be working outside of 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.560 Polk county because I don't really like working in the 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.480 counties that, you know, because then people start snooping around 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:39.960 and they know where you are, and you see them 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:41.760 around and they know where you are. I didn't want 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:42.160 to deal with. 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:47.080 That, so right, right, So so getting to the case, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.440 did you go into this skeptical of his innocence? I mean, 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.520 I know this came across your desk from a very 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:59.080 reputable person, a former judge. You know, honestly, did you 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.040 go into it thinking, Okay, this is an innocent man 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:02.360 or how did you guys go into this? 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.160 Were you ever skeptical of his innocence? 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.000 I'm always skeptical, and even though this came to me 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.199 through a judge, I just it's not that I don't 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.440 trust anybody, but I just have to like know for 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.720 myself that I'm going into something that I know enough 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:18.920 about it. And so there were months that went by 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:22.440 where it was just research, and you know, it did 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.760 help that Judge Cup was vouching for him. But I 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.160 think I try to put a timetable on this. I 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.520 think it was, you know, at least weeks before I said, 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.160 it really looks like this guy could really be innocent, 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:36.559 and you know, from reading from the transcript, it was 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:41.199 pretty obvious to me that he was not rightfully convicted. 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.160 But once we got down there and met Leo and 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.160 started doing our own real deep research on it, it 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:47.959 was pretty clear. 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:49.480 To us that we were dealing with an innocent man. 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:51.480 Kelsey, would you agree. 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:55.000 With that, Yeah, definitely. I mean I think before we 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:57.959 met Leo for the very first time, we tried to 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.080 read everything we could get our hands, and so we 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:05.080 had a really good understanding of yeah, of like how 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:08.800 the trial went, what evidence was there, but you know, 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:12.439 you never you never really know, like everything doesn't come 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.560 out in court. He could be wrongfully convicted and not 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.200 necessarily be innocent. I think there is a little bit 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:20.480 of a distinction there. 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.360 Yeah, go distinction then for listeners. 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:27.680 Sure, yeah, Gilbert might be better at explaining this. This 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:31.839 is a distinction. Judge Scott Cupp drew, you know, the 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.040 very first time I met him, and probably the first 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.800 time Gilbert spoke to him as well, that you know, 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:43.040 stuff can go wrong at trial, like prosecutors can do 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.480 shady things, and it can somebody can be convicted on 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.240 bad evidence or I don't know, Yeah, I mean, things 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:55.400 can go wrong. But maybe they actually did do the crime, 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.920 or maybe they had some knowledge of it or something 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:02.760 like that. This in Leo's case, he wasn't there. He 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.679 didn't do it, he didn't know anything about it, which 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.400 I think is where at least Judge Scott cup would 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:10.560 draw the line it like, you know, he's innocent, he 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.880 didn't know anything about it, he wasn't there. But yeah, 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:17.640 so we had all of that, all of the documentation, 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.760 that information and going into meet Leo, and then I think, 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:25.920 you know, that first meeting, after hearing him speak, that 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:29.200 kind of really solidified things for us that it was like, 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.360 it was really hard for us to kind of wrap 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:37.760 our head around how he could be guilty after that 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:38.440 first meeting. 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.640 So, yeah, that's a really good point. And I think 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.000 sometimes you can get to a point where the prosecutor 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.959 just doesn't prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt, but 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:49.160 you know, a person can still be guilty. And so 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:50.960 that was one of the things that I was trying 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.720 to always consider. But I think what made this case 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:58.000 really interesting is you have this other person involved in 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.040 this who is actually confessed to the murder, and so 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:04.120 the investigation starts to go to him too, and I 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:08.120 remember just specifically having a thought like if Leo, if 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.240 I ever catch him lying to me, or if he 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.760 was trying to mislead me or being really not transparent 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.840 about certain things, that's going to lead to more skepticism. 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.200 And I just to devote this much time and energy 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.920 to a case that could fall apart on me. You know, 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.319 I think back on the NAACP and when they were 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.520 doing these cases in the forties and fifties, they couldn't 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:30.920 afford a single loss. So when they were going down 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.400 there and defending innocent people, they had to make sure 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.200 that that person was innocent because a loss would be 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.920 too damaging. And you certainly don't want that coming back 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.640 on us. But you know, once we were aware of 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.600 who Jeremy Scott was and we started investigating him, it 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:48.079 became not only a problem, you know, a situation where 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.080 Leo's not only innocent, but it's this guy. This guy 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.600 did it, And that was what was really intriguing to us. 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:57.959 I'm Maggie Freeling checking in with Gilbert King and Kelsey 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.199 Decker from Bone Valley and we will be right back. 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:02.959 Hi. 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.920 I'm Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for Good. 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.720 Podcasts Home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs, 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.480 and many other great podcasts. Today, we're asking you, our listeners, 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.080 to take part in a survey. Your feedback is going 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.320 to help inform how we make podcasts in the future. 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.240 Your complete and candid answers will help us continue to 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:26.320 bring you more insightful and inspiring stories about important topics 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.000 that impact us all. 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To learn more about the 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.840 War on drugs, listen to the War on Drug Podcast 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.400 on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:07.440 One of the more powerful moments for a lot of 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.320 listeners was in chapter two when you go to the 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:11.400 evidence room together. 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.800 What was that like and why was that so emotional? 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:17.280 Particularly for you? Kelsey? 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:21.040 Yeah, So, I think by the time we went and 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:25.720 viewed those photos, we'd already been down in Florida for 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.960 a couple months. We'd spoken to Leo a number of times, 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:33.200 we'd spoken to you know, a lot of the people 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:38.400 you hear in the podcast already. So you know, by 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:42.840 that point, I was pretty deep into the story, and 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.880 you know, I felt like I did have kind of 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.480 a sense of who Michelle was, and you know she 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:55.600 by that point, you know, she really felt like somebody 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.680 I knew to some degree, and I think just going there, 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.560 like I knew some of what we were going to 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:08.440 be seeing, but I don't know, it's it's just it's 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:15.359 hard to be prepared for, you know, actually seeing the 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:25.800 violence and yeah, I don't know, just the the trauma 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:29.280 and the violence of all of it. Just really the brutality. 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.720 It just I don't know, it really hit. 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:32.879 Me, the brutality of it. 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.920 And there's just also something about, you know, going through 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:41.000 and having this lead up to the evidence. They showing 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:45.080 us all the physical evidence that the plywood that's resting 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.560 on her body, we're seeing the downy bottle that was 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:52.000 smeared with blood, and then you start seeing clothing to clothing. Yeah, 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:54.159 that starts when you start seeing all the bloodstains on 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.320 that and the and the tears and the rips from 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.720 the knife, and then you know, the finally they bring 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.000 out the pictures from the autopsy, and you know, it's 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.680 just you feel like you've seen pictures of her. Now, 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:08.920 you've talked to her family members, You've talked to Leo, 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.879 you talk to Michelle's brother, and it's just hard to 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.040 get that out of your head. And I think, you know, 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:18.879 we're always doing debriefings and just keeping the recorder going, 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.160 and I think just we got back to the car 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.159 and like Kelsey made it through all of that, the 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.400 whole evidence room, but I think it's just like sort 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:27.760 of snuck up on her and hit her. I don't know, 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.000 but you held off through the whole through the whole 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.240 evidence room, but it was just you know, you got 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.000 away from it and that's where it hit you, I guess. 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:37.919 But I think sometimes it's the processing, you know, like 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.400 I tell our producers, like when I'm doing these interviews, 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.200 you know as a journalist, Gilbert and Kelsey, now you'll 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.479 know too, like you just sometimes have this wall up 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.080 to get through it. And then it's after the fact 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.240 when I go back and i'm transcribing and I'm listening 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.760 to the interview that I'm like, oh, now I'm processing it, 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:57.480 and it's really hitting what was said or what you're 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:58.000 looking at. 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.119 Definitely, that's a really good point That happens to me 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:02.600 a lot too, And I'm sort of, you know, you're 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:04.879 in the moment, but you're asking questions, you're thinking of 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:06.680 things to ask, you're trying to get into the flow 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:08.520 of the interview, and you're in a different space, and 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:10.520 then you go back and listen to it. We had 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:14.119 the same experience with Jeremy just going back and listening 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.480 to it. It just it sounded even more powerful than 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:18.840 it did when we were there in person, just hearing 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.879 his voice crack and the pain and torture that he 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.000 was feeling. It almost like flew by me a little 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:26.080 bit while we were in the room. 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:28.440 But boy, well sometimes it does. 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:30.760 And that's like for listeners to know, Like when you're 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:32.800 in that room, you're really like, well, I got to 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.159 get this question, and is my tape recorder working? Like 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.719 it is very hard to do eighty thousand things and 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.119 focus on the interview and process it all at once. 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:45.560 So yeah, definitely what listeners are hearing is very crafted, 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:46.440 for sure. 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:48.879