Speaker 1: Hello, y'all.
Speaker 2: I'm Maggie Freeling, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and the host
Speaker 2: of Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling, And this is a
Speaker 2: bonus episode of Bone Valley. So I'm here with Gilbert
Speaker 2: King and Kelsey Decker and I'm going to ask them
Speaker 2: some of my questions, some of your questions all about
Speaker 2: the behind the scenes of Bone Valley. So, Gilbert and Kelsey.
Speaker 3: Hello, Hey, Maggie, how you doing.
Speaker 1: I'm good. How are y'all good?
Speaker 3: Really good?
Speaker 2: So one of my first questions is, as someone who
Speaker 2: has done projects like this, it takes a lot of time.
Speaker 2: But you guys started working on this quite a while ago.
Speaker 2: So can you tell me when you started working on
Speaker 2: this how much time you spent in Florida?
Speaker 1: What was that like?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll say it took us over four years to
Speaker 4: do this. So you know, obviously we worked through COVID
Speaker 4: and so that that sort of slowed us down. There
Speaker 4: were a few things that slowed us down. We were
Speaker 4: trying to reach Jeremy Scott and he was constantly being
Speaker 4: put in disciplinary confinement, and then with COVID, so there
Speaker 4: we were a lot of waiting around as well. But
Speaker 4: I would say we kept ourselves pretty busy with this.
Speaker 4: We had the extra time. We were a lot of waiting,
Speaker 4: so we just tried to do more and more research
Speaker 4: and just keep digging. And so that was our experience.
Speaker 4: Why it took so long.
Speaker 2: Right, and because I remember at one point you said like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is a letter, you know, from our first letter
Speaker 2: to Jeremy, and like, what was it twenty nineteen you
Speaker 2: wrote him or twenty eighteen.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it was like I think the first
Speaker 4: time we wrote him was like early twenty twenty, like
Speaker 4: during the pandemic, and he didn't respond for seven months,
Speaker 4: and I think we sent out a bunch of letters
Speaker 4: finally just started writing back to us.
Speaker 1: So and you guys moved to Florida.
Speaker 4: Go ahead, Calsey, you can tell about the big movie
Speaker 4: with your pickup truck.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean we moved to Florida for about
Speaker 5: three months. So it was the summer of twenty nineteen. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I have, yeah, summer of twenty nineteen, so we were
Speaker 5: there for a few months. We are kind of like
Speaker 5: home base. There was Saint Petersburg. We weren't entirely sure.
Speaker 5: We wanted to spend all of our time in like,
Speaker 5: but we were making the drive back and forth quite
Speaker 5: a bit. But yeah, it was it was an interesting
Speaker 5: start to like the real reporting in the case, just
Speaker 5: you know, being down there in the midst of it.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of important to do that, you know,
Speaker 2: when I did my podcast Murder and Alliance, which was
Speaker 2: investigating a wrongful conviction. I pretty much lived in Ohio
Speaker 2: for a good year. Did locals know you guys?
Speaker 1: Like, what was that?
Speaker 6: Like?
Speaker 4: Yeah, we would run into the same people our home
Speaker 4: base a lot of times. We would drive It was
Speaker 4: about forty five minutes from Saint Pete to Lakeland, and
Speaker 4: our home base became the Lakeland Public Library, and they
Speaker 4: actually gave us a room in there that we would
Speaker 4: use for interviews. So it worked out really well. And
Speaker 4: there's also some a lot of research to do in
Speaker 4: Lakeland from you know, historical research that was right in
Speaker 4: the library. But I remember that as just being a
Speaker 4: lot of fun and every morning, like just getting up
Speaker 4: and you know, drinking coffee on the way, going across
Speaker 4: the Skyway bridge and just driving to Lakeland and just
Speaker 4: like doing prep in the car for the interview is
Speaker 4: that we have to do that day and I just
Speaker 4: it was really a fun like commute to actually have
Speaker 4: to do that, and I think, yeah, we started running
Speaker 4: into a lot of people that we'd known. There was
Speaker 4: one point, I don't know if you remember this Kelsey,
Speaker 4: where I was kind of not paying attention and I
Speaker 4: almost ran over a guy around one of those lakes,
Speaker 4: and he was like, I just spoke. I did a
Speaker 4: talk down there, some legal talk, and we made eye
Speaker 4: contact and I knew I know him, and I sent
Speaker 4: him a little quick email. I said, hey, sorry, I
Speaker 4: think I just tried to run you over, and he
Speaker 4: was like, I knew that was you.
Speaker 3: Don't worry about it.
Speaker 2: So listeners do want to know, though, if Gilbert, your
Speaker 2: familiarity with Florida from your other book, Devil and the Grove, if.
Speaker 1: Any of those connections helped you with this case.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would. I would definitely say they did. You know,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of people like I did two books
Speaker 4: down there, so I've spent about fifteen years down there
Speaker 4: in this part of central Florida, and so.
Speaker 3: A lot of people know me.
Speaker 4: And I think there's like a benefit to having some connections,
Speaker 4: Like you know, sometimes we'll be writing something and trying
Speaker 4: to figure out something in terms of like a Supreme
Speaker 4: Court Florida's Supreme Court decision, and I'm not really entirely
Speaker 4: sure what the you know, what to make of the decision,
Speaker 4: And like there are I'm friendly with some of the
Speaker 4: Florida Supreme Court justices, so I can actually call them
Speaker 4: up and say, hey, can you explain your opinion in
Speaker 4: that particular case. And so there's a lot of that
Speaker 4: local stuff that I think really paid off. And same
Speaker 4: with just having going down there and speaking all the time,
Speaker 4: I run into a lot of people that I know,
Speaker 4: and they seem more eager to help me.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely So Kelsey, this was all
Speaker 2: really new to you. You were pretty much just out
Speaker 2: of college and now you're eyeballs deep in a really
Speaker 2: crazy wrongful conviction case, murder case, another murder case.
Speaker 1: What was all this like for you?
Speaker 7: You know, I just kind of had to take it
Speaker 7: a day at a time sometimes because yeah, every phase
Speaker 7: of this project was something just entirely new for me.
Speaker 5: But you know, having having Gilbert there there was always support. Yeah,
Speaker 5: he was my cheerleader every step of the way. So yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean it was an amazing experience. Like first job.
Speaker 5: I think this is you know, maybe kind of a
Speaker 5: dream job for a lot of people, and here I am,
Speaker 5: like right out of college, just diving right into it.
Speaker 5: So I felt very lucky in a lot of ways.
Speaker 5: But there were definitely moments where I felt I was
Speaker 5: in a little over my head having to kind of
Speaker 5: learn some of the stuff as I went along. But
Speaker 5: here I am, I made it, and I am, you know,
Speaker 5: really happy I've been able to see it through to
Speaker 5: the end. And yeah, I mean I just care so
Speaker 5: much about the story. It was something I just you know,
Speaker 5: was very motivated to continue learning and committing to and
Speaker 5: putting everything I could into it.
Speaker 2: So how did your relationship the two of you? How
Speaker 2: did it change over the course of four years? I
Speaker 2: mean that's a long time. And Kelsey, again, like you
Speaker 2: were very new, so I'm sure by the end you
Speaker 2: were a rock star investigator.
Speaker 1: But so how did it all change?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Well, I think, you know, part of the thing with
Speaker 4: this is like I have a lot of researchers and
Speaker 4: they're based in New York, and they're actually guys who
Speaker 4: are older than me, and like it just for them
Speaker 4: to just upend themselves and move down to Florida was
Speaker 4: just not going to happen for them. You know, they
Speaker 4: had families, they have commitments, and and so you really
Speaker 4: need somebody who has the flexibility to do something like this,
Speaker 4: and so I think Kelsey came in as a researcher.
Speaker 4: Basically I had a couple different projects going, and I
Speaker 4: remember specifically I was trying to decide, like there was
Speaker 4: a TV thing, a new book, and I was trying
Speaker 4: to prioritize, and then Leo's case came across my desk
Speaker 4: and Kelsey started looking into it, and I remember there
Speaker 4: was a moment I said, well, Kelsey, like what what
Speaker 4: do you think I should prioritize what project? And I
Speaker 4: remember her specifically saying like, well, it looks like there's
Speaker 4: an innocent man in prison that one. And it just
Speaker 4: like this moment of clarity, like yeah, of course we
Speaker 4: have to do that one. And so that was really
Speaker 4: an inspiration to get going. And you know, Kelsey started
Speaker 4: as a researcher, but because like we decided to pivot
Speaker 4: to a podcast while we were down there, you know,
Speaker 4: she had to learn all the audio recording and sort
Speaker 4: of was all self taught, and so like she's moving
Speaker 4: through this going from researcher to you know, audio recordists
Speaker 4: to producer and all these different skills that she had
Speaker 4: to learn for this job. So I really need somebody
Speaker 4: flexible in, somebody who's not afraid of learning.
Speaker 3: And she was it.
Speaker 1: Wow, would you agree with all that, Kelsey?
Speaker 5: I guess, so yeah, I didn't have much to lose
Speaker 5: with upending my entire life and going down to Florida
Speaker 5: and learning everything on the job.
Speaker 2: Well, were you nervous like to go down just like
Speaker 2: you and Gilbert that he's a terrifying human, but like
Speaker 2: you know, I'm you didn't know him that well, Like,
Speaker 2: was that weird to start off, just like the two of.
Speaker 5: You, Yeah, it was. It was a little weird, but
Speaker 5: we fell into like a rhythm pretty quickly. I mean
Speaker 5: by that time, we'd already we were already both like
Speaker 5: very invested in this case and this story. So yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean we we were so obsessed with it at
Speaker 5: that point. We were talking about it constantly, and so
Speaker 5: like it felt pretty natural after a little time passed.
Speaker 5: And I'm actually I was born in Florida, so also,
Speaker 5: like the landscape there was kind of familiar to me.
Speaker 5: I have some family down there, so there was like
Speaker 5: a little bit of familiarity in that aspect as well.
Speaker 2: Well, that's what I was going to ask you. So
Speaker 2: where were you both like coming from? You were coming
Speaker 2: from New York, Gilbert, is that are you from New York?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm originally from upstate New York, but I've been
Speaker 4: in I've been in New York for the last thirty
Speaker 4: something years, so yeah, I'm a New Yorker. But yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, and I'm really used to Florida. I think
Speaker 4: there was some you know, weird things of like when
Speaker 4: we were like basically roommates for a couple months, and
Speaker 4: like I think Kelsey was like, am I supposed to cook?
Speaker 4: Is that part of my chob realize like he doesn't cook.
Speaker 4: He just eats out all the time.
Speaker 5: It's true.
Speaker 4: Yeah New York, Yeah exactly, but but yeah, I just
Speaker 4: it was it was it was an adjustment, especially but
Speaker 4: once we built into the schedule and like we'd stay home,
Speaker 4: do all the phone calls, do all the prep work there,
Speaker 4: and then just go out in the field in Lakeland,
Speaker 4: And it was really nice to be able to get
Speaker 4: away from Polk County and just be working outside of
Speaker 4: Polk county because I don't really like working in the
Speaker 4: counties that, you know, because then people start snooping around
Speaker 4: and they know where you are, and you see them
Speaker 4: around and they know where you are. I didn't want
Speaker 4: to deal with.
Speaker 2: That, so right, right, So so getting to the case,
Speaker 2: did you go into this skeptical of his innocence? I mean,
Speaker 2: I know this came across your desk from a very
Speaker 2: reputable person, a former judge. You know, honestly, did you
Speaker 2: go into it thinking, Okay, this is an innocent man
Speaker 2: or how did you guys go into this?
Speaker 1: Were you ever skeptical of his innocence?
Speaker 4: I'm always skeptical, and even though this came to me
Speaker 4: through a judge, I just it's not that I don't
Speaker 4: trust anybody, but I just have to like know for
Speaker 4: myself that I'm going into something that I know enough
Speaker 4: about it. And so there were months that went by
Speaker 4: where it was just research, and you know, it did
Speaker 4: help that Judge Cup was vouching for him. But I
Speaker 4: think I try to put a timetable on this. I
Speaker 4: think it was, you know, at least weeks before I said,
Speaker 4: it really looks like this guy could really be innocent,
Speaker 4: and you know, from reading from the transcript, it was
Speaker 4: pretty obvious to me that he was not rightfully convicted.
Speaker 4: But once we got down there and met Leo and
Speaker 4: started doing our own real deep research on it, it
Speaker 4: was pretty clear.
Speaker 3: To us that we were dealing with an innocent man.
Speaker 1: Kelsey, would you agree.
Speaker 5: With that, Yeah, definitely. I mean I think before we
Speaker 5: met Leo for the very first time, we tried to
Speaker 5: read everything we could get our hands, and so we
Speaker 5: had a really good understanding of yeah, of like how
Speaker 5: the trial went, what evidence was there, but you know,
Speaker 5: you never you never really know, like everything doesn't come
Speaker 5: out in court. He could be wrongfully convicted and not
Speaker 5: necessarily be innocent. I think there is a little bit
Speaker 5: of a distinction there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, go distinction then for listeners.
Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, Gilbert might be better at explaining this. This
Speaker 5: is a distinction. Judge Scott Cupp drew, you know, the
Speaker 5: very first time I met him, and probably the first
Speaker 5: time Gilbert spoke to him as well, that you know,
Speaker 5: stuff can go wrong at trial, like prosecutors can do
Speaker 5: shady things, and it can somebody can be convicted on
Speaker 5: bad evidence or I don't know, Yeah, I mean, things
Speaker 5: can go wrong. But maybe they actually did do the crime,
Speaker 5: or maybe they had some knowledge of it or something
Speaker 5: like that. This in Leo's case, he wasn't there. He
Speaker 5: didn't do it, he didn't know anything about it, which
Speaker 5: I think is where at least Judge Scott cup would
Speaker 5: draw the line it like, you know, he's innocent, he
Speaker 5: didn't know anything about it, he wasn't there. But yeah,
Speaker 5: so we had all of that, all of the documentation,
Speaker 5: that information and going into meet Leo, and then I think,
Speaker 5: you know, that first meeting, after hearing him speak, that
Speaker 5: kind of really solidified things for us that it was like,
Speaker 5: it was really hard for us to kind of wrap
Speaker 5: our head around how he could be guilty after that
Speaker 5: first meeting.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, that's a really good point. And I think
Speaker 4: sometimes you can get to a point where the prosecutor
Speaker 4: just doesn't prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt, but
Speaker 4: you know, a person can still be guilty. And so
Speaker 4: that was one of the things that I was trying
Speaker 4: to always consider. But I think what made this case
Speaker 4: really interesting is you have this other person involved in
Speaker 4: this who is actually confessed to the murder, and so
Speaker 4: the investigation starts to go to him too, and I
Speaker 4: remember just specifically having a thought like if Leo, if
Speaker 4: I ever catch him lying to me, or if he
Speaker 4: was trying to mislead me or being really not transparent
Speaker 4: about certain things, that's going to lead to more skepticism.
Speaker 4: And I just to devote this much time and energy
Speaker 4: to a case that could fall apart on me. You know,
Speaker 4: I think back on the NAACP and when they were
Speaker 4: doing these cases in the forties and fifties, they couldn't
Speaker 4: afford a single loss. So when they were going down
Speaker 4: there and defending innocent people, they had to make sure
Speaker 4: that that person was innocent because a loss would be
Speaker 4: too damaging. And you certainly don't want that coming back
Speaker 4: on us. But you know, once we were aware of
Speaker 4: who Jeremy Scott was and we started investigating him, it
Speaker 4: became not only a problem, you know, a situation where
Speaker 4: Leo's not only innocent, but it's this guy. This guy
Speaker 4: did it, And that was what was really intriguing to us.
Speaker 2: I'm Maggie Freeling checking in with Gilbert King and Kelsey
Speaker 2: Decker from Bone Valley and we will be right back.
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Speaker 2: One of the more powerful moments for a lot of
Speaker 2: listeners was in chapter two when you go to the
Speaker 2: evidence room together.
Speaker 1: What was that like and why was that so emotional?
Speaker 1: Particularly for you? Kelsey?
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, I think by the time we went and
Speaker 5: viewed those photos, we'd already been down in Florida for
Speaker 5: a couple months. We'd spoken to Leo a number of times,
Speaker 5: we'd spoken to you know, a lot of the people
Speaker 5: you hear in the podcast already. So you know, by
Speaker 5: that point, I was pretty deep into the story, and
Speaker 5: you know, I felt like I did have kind of
Speaker 5: a sense of who Michelle was, and you know she
Speaker 5: by that point, you know, she really felt like somebody
Speaker 5: I knew to some degree, and I think just going there,
Speaker 5: like I knew some of what we were going to
Speaker 5: be seeing, but I don't know, it's it's just it's
Speaker 5: hard to be prepared for, you know, actually seeing the
Speaker 5: violence and yeah, I don't know, just the the trauma
Speaker 5: and the violence of all of it. Just really the brutality.
Speaker 5: It just I don't know, it really hit.
Speaker 1: Me, the brutality of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: And there's just also something about, you know, going through
Speaker 4: and having this lead up to the evidence. They showing
Speaker 4: us all the physical evidence that the plywood that's resting
Speaker 4: on her body, we're seeing the downy bottle that was
Speaker 4: smeared with blood, and then you start seeing clothing to clothing. Yeah,
Speaker 4: that starts when you start seeing all the bloodstains on
Speaker 4: that and the and the tears and the rips from
Speaker 4: the knife, and then you know, the finally they bring
Speaker 4: out the pictures from the autopsy, and you know, it's
Speaker 4: just you feel like you've seen pictures of her. Now,
Speaker 4: you've talked to her family members, You've talked to Leo,
Speaker 4: you talk to Michelle's brother, and it's just hard to
Speaker 4: get that out of your head. And I think, you know,
Speaker 4: we're always doing debriefings and just keeping the recorder going,
Speaker 4: and I think just we got back to the car
Speaker 4: and like Kelsey made it through all of that, the
Speaker 4: whole evidence room, but I think it's just like sort
Speaker 4: of snuck up on her and hit her. I don't know,
Speaker 4: but you held off through the whole through the whole
Speaker 4: evidence room, but it was just you know, you got
Speaker 4: away from it and that's where it hit you, I guess.
Speaker 2: But I think sometimes it's the processing, you know, like
Speaker 2: I tell our producers, like when I'm doing these interviews,
Speaker 2: you know as a journalist, Gilbert and Kelsey, now you'll
Speaker 2: know too, like you just sometimes have this wall up
Speaker 2: to get through it. And then it's after the fact
Speaker 2: when I go back and i'm transcribing and I'm listening
Speaker 2: to the interview that I'm like, oh, now I'm processing it,
Speaker 2: and it's really hitting what was said or what you're
Speaker 2: looking at.
Speaker 4: Definitely, that's a really good point That happens to me
Speaker 4: a lot too, And I'm sort of, you know, you're
Speaker 4: in the moment, but you're asking questions, you're thinking of
Speaker 4: things to ask, you're trying to get into the flow
Speaker 4: of the interview, and you're in a different space, and
Speaker 4: then you go back and listen to it. We had
Speaker 4: the same experience with Jeremy just going back and listening
Speaker 4: to it. It just it sounded even more powerful than
Speaker 4: it did when we were there in person, just hearing
Speaker 4: his voice crack and the pain and torture that he
Speaker 4: was feeling. It almost like flew by me a little
Speaker 4: bit while we were in the room.
Speaker 1: But boy, well sometimes it does.
Speaker 2: And that's like for listeners to know, Like when you're
Speaker 2: in that room, you're really like, well, I got to
Speaker 2: get this question, and is my tape recorder working? Like
Speaker 2: it is very hard to do eighty thousand things and
Speaker 2: focus on the interview and process it all at once.
Speaker 2: So yeah, definitely what listeners are hearing is very crafted,
Speaker 2: for sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know, we did so much prep for
Speaker 4: that in that interview, just by the way, you know,
Speaker 4: and it was I think it was clearly the best
Speaker 4: interview we've ever done. Like it was the last one
Speaker 4: we did, basically, but it was the best one. I
Speaker 4: think we were so prepared for and we were just
Speaker 4: working off each other and he was being so responsive
Speaker 4: to both of us. It was a really incredible thing
Speaker 4: to go back and listen to that and think, Wow,
Speaker 4: I cannot believe we got all that out of them.
Speaker 1: Are you still in touch with Jeremy?
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's really difficult to reach again. He wrote me
Speaker 4: a letter. It was a couple of months ago. I
Speaker 4: hadn't heard from him a long time. It was a
Speaker 4: really short message and he said, you know, dear mister King,
Speaker 4: I don't hold a grudge against you for doing this story.
Speaker 4: I wish you the best, but the monster in me
Speaker 4: is coming out and I'm going to be locked up
Speaker 4: for a long time.
Speaker 3: And I was like, what is this?
Speaker 4: You know, this was a short note that I got
Speaker 4: from him and then found out like a couple days
Speaker 4: later he was involved in some kind of altercation with
Speaker 4: a weapon and he got moved to a different prison
Speaker 4: and put in solitary confinement. Don't really know the details
Speaker 4: of it, but he's locked up for a long time,
Speaker 4: so I don't know, you know, that's kind of a
Speaker 4: life he's led in prison. It's extraordinarily violent, extraordinarily impulsive,
Speaker 4: he gets moved around constantly, there's psychiatric issues.
Speaker 3: But I do try to stay in touch with him.
Speaker 4: And we just got another letter from him last week
Speaker 4: and so he was writing again. So I'm going to
Speaker 4: stay in touch with him. I think I'm the only
Speaker 4: one who's writing to him.
Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you about that, because I'm sure
Speaker 2: there's a lot of listeners who are going to go,
Speaker 2: why he's a violent, horrible, murderous person.
Speaker 1: Why stay in touch with him?
Speaker 4: You know, I don't know a really great answer to that,
Speaker 4: other than he is a human being, and he exposed
Speaker 4: part of himself and it's you know, really came clean
Speaker 4: about the nightmares that he has and the punishment that
Speaker 4: he's feeling in the torture he's having. And I do
Speaker 4: believe that he's trying to help himself by clearing his
Speaker 4: conscience of this. And also I think he's trying to
Speaker 4: help Leo. And I just see that as something admirable,
Speaker 4: and Leo is thankful for it. And basically we follow
Speaker 4: Leo's lead on a lot of these kind of moral
Speaker 4: and ethical decisions.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's definitely something I care about,
Speaker 5: Like I don't I do want to stay in touch
Speaker 5: with Jeremy, I know, like I never want to downplay
Speaker 5: all of the harm he's caused. But I feel for
Speaker 5: Jeremy too, like he's he's had it really rough, he
Speaker 5: really never had a chance in life, and as much
Speaker 5: harm as he's caused, I still feel like, I don't know,
Speaker 5: he deserves a little compassion, and I you know what, Yeah,
Speaker 5: I agree with Gilbert. He's trying to tell the truth,
Speaker 5: I think, and I think he's genuine and he's remorseful,
Speaker 5: and I don't know, I want him to know that
Speaker 5: that's not going unnoticed. Like I want him to know
Speaker 5: that he's doing a good thing and he's doing the
Speaker 5: right thing, and he should be proud of that.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, that's probably why all of us
Speaker 2: are on this network, because not only are we journalists,
Speaker 2: but we're also humans and we recognize is the humanity
Speaker 2: in people. And I think all of us would agree
Speaker 2: that nobody is defined by the worst day of their life.
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, I think that's really beautiful
Speaker 2: that you guys put in Jeremy's story and took so
Speaker 2: much care to show that he was once a kid
Speaker 2: and you know, he became a product of his environment,
Speaker 2: which is really, really tragic, and I really appreciate you
Speaker 2: guys putting that in there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think you know, he's taken responsibility for
Speaker 4: his acts. He's confessed to all the murders he's committed.
Speaker 4: He knows he's not ever getting out of prison. He
Speaker 4: really shouldn't get out of prison. He's extraordinarily violent and impulsive.
Speaker 4: But you know, it doesn't mean we still can't care
Speaker 4: for him and wish for him the best in the
Speaker 4: rest of his days. And the fact that he has
Speaker 4: nobody to talk to, and you know, I'm the only
Speaker 4: one he's writing to. You know, that comes with some
Speaker 4: kind of responsibility. You know, I'm I don't want to
Speaker 4: be his best friend, but I do want to be
Speaker 4: there and talk to him and listen to him, and
Speaker 4: you know, who knows what else he'll say.
Speaker 2: Sure, speaking of Probably one of the craziest things besides
Speaker 2: the actual killer confessing to the murder that someone else
Speaker 2: is in prison for, is that you come across another
Speaker 2: murder while investigating Michelle's murder. Where is that investigation at will?
Speaker 2: Anyone Jeremy ever be prosecuted for that.
Speaker 4: You know, this is maddening to me because we went
Speaker 4: several times to the Ossiola County Sheriff's office with our
Speaker 4: evidence and with our letters where Jeremy started taking responsibility
Speaker 4: for killing this cab driver, Joseph Lavere. It wasn't just
Speaker 4: his confession. We had other evidence that we put together,
Speaker 4: stuff that didn't even make it into the podcast because
Speaker 4: you know, we didn't really feel the need to expand
Speaker 4: on this forever after he confessed. But we've brought it
Speaker 4: in a couple times. We brought it into the State
Speaker 4: Attorney's office, and they basically have just refused to investigate it,
Speaker 4: which I just find flabbergasting. Actually, it's clear evidence they
Speaker 4: have a confession, and they basically doubled down in their
Speaker 4: response by saying that we believe that we prosecuted the
Speaker 4: right guy in dan Odie, but he wasn't convicted by
Speaker 4: the jury, but we still think he's the murderer. And
Speaker 4: you know, for me, that's annoying because these prosecutors are
Speaker 4: always talking about finality and the justice system. You got
Speaker 4: to respect the jury's verdict, but here they are smearing
Speaker 4: a man who's been quitted and calling him a murderer
Speaker 4: because it doesn't fit their narrative.
Speaker 3: I don't know why they're.
Speaker 4: Not investigating it. It's just it's beyond me to understand
Speaker 4: why they're doing that.
Speaker 1: Have you talked to Joseph Laver's family.
Speaker 4: You know, that's been a really tricky thing. We've tried
Speaker 4: tracking him down. I've sent messages. They're scattered all over.
Speaker 3: It was a broken family.
Speaker 4: Joseph had gotten divorced about a year before he was murdered,
Speaker 4: and so the family just kind of scattered. He had
Speaker 4: a young son at the time, who's maybe one or
Speaker 4: two years old, and tried to find him, but he's
Speaker 4: locked away in jail as well, and they just haven't
Speaker 4: been able to reach him. So we haven't had any
Speaker 4: luck trying to get Lavera's family, and there's some other
Speaker 4: reporters who have tried too and have not been able
Speaker 4: to reach him. But that's definitely something we're going to
Speaker 4: continue to pursue because I don't believe justice has been
Speaker 4: served in that case.
Speaker 2: So, Kelsey, something listeners want to know about is you
Speaker 2: were always asking Gilbert about his feelings. Why did you
Speaker 2: do that? Was that just instinctual, like what was up
Speaker 2: with asking Gilbert about us feeling?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I suppose it was kind of instinctual, like, you know,
Speaker 5: I had a feeling that we were there on the ground,
Speaker 5: we were doing the work, and you know, in some
Speaker 5: ways the listener is going to look to us to
Speaker 5: kind of interpret what's going on and what we're seeing
Speaker 5: and finding out, and some of that is sharing what
Speaker 5: we're feeling and how we're processing it. And yeah, you know,
Speaker 5: Gilbert started to get the hang of it. You know,
Speaker 5: it didn't come incredibly natural for him, but but we
Speaker 5: made some progress there, I think, And yeah, it was
Speaker 5: it was a learning curve.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean I imagine Gilbert and your other reporting.
Speaker 2: No one's usually putting a mic in your face and saying,
Speaker 2: how do you feel about this?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: I hate You know, there's that line in that Departed
Speaker 4: where they say where talking about Freud says that the
Speaker 4: Irish or immune.
Speaker 3: To therapy, it just doesn't work on the Irish.
Speaker 4: That's who I feel is like, what are you asking
Speaker 4: me my feelings for?
Speaker 3: Who cares?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's an awkward thing, and you know, there's
Speaker 4: also a lot of compartmentalization that I tried to do
Speaker 4: in this kind of stuff, Like, if you get really
Speaker 4: emotional and thinking about the humanity and the pain and
Speaker 4: all these waves of violence in the story, it can
Speaker 4: really kind of paralyze you. And so I always kind
Speaker 4: of put that stuff in the back and just try
Speaker 4: to be in the moment with this stuff. And so
Speaker 4: I think it was kind of funny when Kelsey's asking
Speaker 4: me these questions about my feelings and I'm just you know,
Speaker 4: doing logistical stuff and just yeah, I didn't really ever
Speaker 4: get the hang of it. Just awful at those kind
Speaker 4: of stuff.
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny because listeners seem to think you loved
Speaker 2: answering and talking about your feelings, so surprise listeners who
Speaker 2: did not. So so people love Bone Valley and it's
Speaker 2: been my favorite podcast of the year. Why do you
Speaker 2: think so many people are responding to Bone Valley? You know,
Speaker 2: there's a million podcasts out there about cases, murders, wrongful convictions.
Speaker 1: Why are people resonating with Bone Valley.
Speaker 4: You know, I'll just take a quick stab at it,
Speaker 4: but I think it comes back to the work you
Speaker 4: did with Suave when it has heart.
Speaker 3: Suave has heart, that story has a lot of heart.
Speaker 4: And I think you know that was in our heads too,
Speaker 4: Like we wanted to tell a story with heart, and
Speaker 4: we want it to be you know, emotional, not just
Speaker 4: a true crime like procedural.
Speaker 3: We wanted you to care about the people.
Speaker 4: And I think because we spent so much time with
Speaker 4: our subjects and got to know them so well and
Speaker 4: they were so comfortable talking, that you begin to care
Speaker 4: about people like Chrissy, not just Leo, but just people
Speaker 4: in the story. And I don't know, I just think
Speaker 4: there's a human and emotional connection to this story that
Speaker 4: felt real while we were working on it the whole time.
Speaker 2: Well, and that goes back to you know, the whole
Speaker 2: being compassionate to Jeremy. You know, if you had just
Speaker 2: treated him like a subject and not a human, I
Speaker 2: highly doubt we would be where we are with any
Speaker 2: of the information you got from him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's true.
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, like it's just I don't
Speaker 4: think there's much interesting in black and white good versus evil.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of those gray areas, and you know,
Speaker 4: Leo has his own gray areas, right, It's really in
Speaker 4: the beginning, it's really hard to feel sympathetic for him.
Speaker 4: When you hear all this, you know, bad character evidence
Speaker 4: coming in and he's talking about, you know, his relationship
Speaker 4: with Michelle. It's not a perfect relationship. They're a young couple,
Speaker 4: they have their issues. It gets a little volatile at times.
Speaker 4: So Leo's not like the fuzzy bunny of wrongful convictions
Speaker 4: and Jeremy. You know, Leo doesn't think Jeremy's the monster
Speaker 4: he was looking for. And I think that's what really
Speaker 4: makes it interesting.
Speaker 5: M h.
Speaker 2: How do you how do you think, you know, how
Speaker 2: does Leo feel about Jeremy now today.
Speaker 6: Leo is.
Speaker 5: I think Leo is very grateful that Jeremy is telling
Speaker 5: the truth and that Jeremy is trying to do what
Speaker 5: he can to correct this injustice. And I think, you know, Leo,
Speaker 5: Leo cares about Jeremy as another human being. I think,
Speaker 5: you know, kind of like us. Leo sees Jeremy as
Speaker 5: somebody who who deserves respect for being a human. And
Speaker 5: you know, despite all of the terrible things he's done,
Speaker 5: and I know that Leo still prais for Jeremy and
Speaker 5: thinks about Jeremy, And yeah, I don't know, I don't
Speaker 5: know what else to add to that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think it's just a testament to Leo's
Speaker 4: character and you know who he is as a person.
Speaker 4: You know, in the prison, he's like extraordinarily educated. Now
Speaker 4: he's a mentor to a lot of young inmates who
Speaker 4: come in the jails. The prison looks to him to
Speaker 4: sort of guide people who are having a difficult time.
Speaker 4: He served as a mentor. There's times when we've talked
Speaker 4: to him and we talk about getting out and he'll say, like,
Speaker 4: I'm not sure I can actually leave this place because
Speaker 4: there's so many people counting on me.
Speaker 3: It's like a family.
Speaker 4: And we've talked to so many people that who've echoed
Speaker 4: that to us, and it's just so natural for him
Speaker 4: to actually even care about Jeremy's mental well being and
Speaker 4: spiritual health.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely so. Has Leo heard the podcast.
Speaker 4: No, he's not able to hear the podcast, which is
Speaker 4: really interesting to us because he he's getting every day,
Speaker 4: he gets people coming into him like guards, administrators, outside contractors.
Speaker 4: He works in maintenance at the prison he's at and
Speaker 4: so he has a lot of dealing with the outside
Speaker 4: world and you know he I talked to him on
Speaker 4: the phone just the other day, and you know, he said, Gilbert.
Speaker 4: Everybody I know is telling me they listen to the podcast,
Speaker 4: and guards are coming up to me and they're saying,
Speaker 4: you know, I always thought that you were someone who
Speaker 4: didn't seem like they belonged here in prison. But now
Speaker 4: that I know your story and I know that you're innocent,
Speaker 4: I just want to hug you and tell.
Speaker 3: You I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: And you know that has meant so much to Leo
Speaker 4: to get that kind of affirmation, because you know, these
Speaker 4: guys don't talk about their cases, especially with outsiders. You know,
Speaker 4: it's just like not done. And now these guys are
Speaker 4: listening to this podcast and realizing, you know, that Leo's innocent,
Speaker 4: and you know, he says, he's been getting so many
Speaker 4: updates from like on visitation days, like other inmates. Families
Speaker 4: on the outside are listening and they want to meet
Speaker 4: him and you know, tell him good luck, and they're
Speaker 4: how sorry they are, and it's just really moving. I
Speaker 4: think he's finally finally getting like the kind of feedback
Speaker 4: that you know, he's always wanted, that people believe in
Speaker 4: his innocence.
Speaker 5: I think it's really validating for him, even though he
Speaker 5: can't listen to it. It's kind of some of the
Speaker 5: feedback is kind of trickling down to him, and so
Speaker 5: he's able to, you know, feel some of that. And
Speaker 5: we're glad he's he's able to feel a little bit
Speaker 5: of it, because after all this time and all he's
Speaker 5: put into it, it's kind of crazy he can't actually
Speaker 5: listen to it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 4: I know that his sister has been reading like the
Speaker 4: transcripts to him from like the last episode, and he
Speaker 4: said he got all choked up about the concert.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: Gilbert came to the concert and he had hurt never
Speaker 4: heard that before, and I said, yeah, it's it's one
Speaker 4: thing on the page, but it's one thing to actually
Speaker 4: hear it, you know. Like I think I read that
Speaker 4: part four times.
Speaker 3: And I couldn't get through it without like breaking up.
Speaker 4: And I think on the fourth one, I there's a
Speaker 4: little bit of a break in my voice.
Speaker 3: And we said, oh, Les, go with that one. It's
Speaker 3: it's realistic. You can't.
Speaker 4: You can't get through this, so you might as well
Speaker 4: just be there.
Speaker 2: It's all honest, Gilbert Kelsey, I'm just going to pause
Speaker 2: you for a second. I think we're going to take
Speaker 2: a quick break and we will be back with more
Speaker 2: questions for you guys, do not go anywhere.
Speaker 3: Sounds good.
Speaker 5: Sounds good.
Speaker 2: So Gilbert listeners want to know, are you going to
Speaker 2: write a book about this, because they know how impactful
Speaker 2: Devil in the Grove was and they want to know
Speaker 2: if you plan to do something similar.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's something I think about. I'm a
Speaker 4: big believer in the power of podcasts and what they
Speaker 4: can do to right or wrong. And you know, a book,
Speaker 4: I've never gotten this kind of reaction from many of
Speaker 4: my books before, Like this kind of reaction I'm seeing
Speaker 4: from like all these people writing me, and it's just
Speaker 4: amplified and exponentially, and so, you know, there's a lot
Speaker 4: of a lot of material that we couldn't get into
Speaker 4: the podcast.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: One of the things is we were trying to do
Speaker 4: this parallel narrative that I sort of fantasized about doing.
Speaker 4: Is like Jeremy on one side Leo and eventually they
Speaker 4: you know, meet somewhere and yeah, but it just it
Speaker 4: didn't work on the audio side. I think it could
Speaker 4: work on the written side. But there's so much, so
Speaker 4: many characters who didn't make it into the podcast. Some
Speaker 4: detectives it just it just quite didn't quite fit. We
Speaker 4: had a we have over nine hours, but still it
Speaker 4: was it was a it was a labor to get
Speaker 4: that down.
Speaker 3: I you know, I believe that.
Speaker 1: And so four years of work absolutely.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And we went in some directions that you know,
Speaker 4: we just like the conviction and tegatory review units we did.
Speaker 4: We interviewed several conviction and tegative review units. We went
Speaker 4: in that direction, what does it take to overturn it?
Speaker 4: And it just sort of felt like it was taking
Speaker 4: us out of the immediate story of Leo and Jeremy
Speaker 4: and Michelle's death. So we just sort of put that
Speaker 4: stuff to the side. But there's a lot more there
Speaker 4: that we didn't really really need in the podcast or
Speaker 4: didn't seem to work, But I think it would work
Speaker 4: in a book.
Speaker 3: So it's something I'm thinking about, but I haven't decided.
Speaker 5: Am I allowed to say that Leo is also contemplating
Speaker 5: doing some writing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, He's talked about it.
Speaker 5: I am envisioning some sort of collaboration between Gilbert and Leo.
Speaker 5: That's what I'm That's what I'm hoping for.
Speaker 3: I would love something like that.
Speaker 4: He's a superb writer. I mean he can reduce you
Speaker 4: to tears with his emails and letters. I mean, he's
Speaker 4: just such a thoughtful, emotional guy. There's things that he
Speaker 4: says sometimes that you know, like I don't really pick
Speaker 4: up until I hear it later and go, wow, did
Speaker 4: he just really say that? Like he's just a really
Speaker 4: interesting storyteller. And it transfers to the to the written
Speaker 4: page when he writes too. So I would be honored
Speaker 4: to do something like that.
Speaker 1: Wow, we will hold our breath.
Speaker 2: And listeners also want to know is the gang getting
Speaker 2: back together for another podcast?
Speaker 1: Another case?
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know how to answer that.
Speaker 4: We have a couple of cases that were really interested
Speaker 4: in we haven't really had a chance to explore them.
Speaker 3: I would love to.
Speaker 4: I think that this team that I was working with,
Speaker 4: it just made this podcast so much better. Everybody brought
Speaker 4: in their individual skills and.
Speaker 3: Just raise the bar.
Speaker 4: When I look at some of the origin scripts that
Speaker 4: I wrote for this while I was just waiting around
Speaker 4: for things, I said, well, I might as well start writing.
Speaker 4: They are so bad compared to what we had now
Speaker 4: when we had collaboration, like with Kara and Britt and
Speaker 4: Kelsey and Rucks, everyone came together and just sort of
Speaker 4: made everything better and it was honestly, it was a
Speaker 4: dream team. I don't know, if Kelsey is like your
Speaker 4: your first time experiencing any kind of collaboration, you must
Speaker 4: think it's always going to be like this, But I'm
Speaker 4: telling you what we had was really really special. In
Speaker 4: everybody who's being on the same pages.
Speaker 5: I can recognize that. And yeah, I would love for
Speaker 5: the team to come back together for a second season
Speaker 5: or another story or something, so certainly open to that.
Speaker 5: But if that happens, the plans are still being worked out.
Speaker 1: So the ultimate question is what is the status of
Speaker 1: Leo's case? Right now? People are asking does he have
Speaker 1: appeals left?
Speaker 2: Someone else asked, you know, the autopsy said that the
Speaker 2: killer was left hand, and did is Jeremy left handed?
Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be important for you know, some sort of appeal?
Speaker 1: What's going on?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I'll just address the left handed thing
Speaker 4: because it is interesting and Jeremy is left handed, and
Speaker 4: you know, I think there's a case to be made,
Speaker 4: like how do you stab in a car? The first
Speaker 4: we didn't really try to speculate so much about what
Speaker 4: exactly happened in the car. Because I think once we
Speaker 4: believe all the blood was found outside the car, that's
Speaker 4: where her blood had pooled. I believe that she was
Speaker 4: killed outside of the car, and you know, she was
Speaker 4: stabbed in both the front and the back of her torso,
Speaker 4: and so clearly, like you can't really tell where Jeremy
Speaker 4: might have been kneeling or standing when he was doing this,
Speaker 4: and so to speculate about his left handedness, I don't
Speaker 4: think it's really relevant or even something that you could
Speaker 4: prove in this particular case.
Speaker 5: So we've asked, we asked the crime scene expert about that,
Speaker 5: and apparently, like unless you know the exact position of
Speaker 5: how somebody was standing or kneeling as this happened, it's
Speaker 5: hard for that to be real evidence of anything. So unfortunately,
Speaker 5: even though it is Jeremy is left handed, I'm not
Speaker 5: sure that that really can prove anything.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and as far as the case goes, I mean,
Speaker 4: he's literally legally out of options. His last appeal had failed.
Speaker 4: They appealed it to the Florida Supreme Court, which refused
Speaker 4: to hear it, and so he's unless there's some discovery
Speaker 4: of new evidence, which really seems kind of unlikely at
Speaker 4: this point, because you have physical evidence linking Jeremy to
Speaker 4: the scene, and you have multiple confessions, detailed confessions, I'm
Speaker 4: not sure what else can arise. You know, I think
Speaker 4: the crime scene was gone over in such a sloppy manner.
Speaker 4: There was evidence that was left behind that probably could
Speaker 4: have linked Jeremy there as well. I'm thinking particularly this
Speaker 4: box of cigarettes that was like right not far from
Speaker 4: the bloodstains. Jeremy said he was smoking afterwards before he
Speaker 4: moved the body.
Speaker 3: We asked him what kind of cigarettes he smoked? Marlborough.
Speaker 3: He would never have known that.
Speaker 4: Granted it's a common brand, but there's only one pack
Speaker 4: of cigarettes near those bloodstains, and the police photographed it
Speaker 4: as if it was evidence, but apparently never collected it. Right,
Speaker 4: And so there's a lot of evidence from the crime
Speaker 4: scene that you know, Jeremy said, you know, he wrapped
Speaker 4: her in in a plastic tarp and dragged her down there. Well,
Speaker 4: if you look at the crime scene photos, you can
Speaker 4: see several plastic tarps right there in the bushes, in
Speaker 4: the garbage, and it.
Speaker 3: Was never collected.
Speaker 4: So I don't know, you know, you're ever gonna get
Speaker 4: that again. And there's not like some video camera in
Speaker 4: a tree back in nineteen eighty seven. So I don't
Speaker 4: know where there's going to be any new evidence that's
Speaker 4: going to be more significant than having your fingerprints and
Speaker 4: multiple confessions linking you to the crime.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but just to clarify, Leo's really his only two
Speaker 5: options are being released on parole or some clemency after
Speaker 5: and of course with parole that's not the same as
Speaker 5: an exoneration. So even if he is released on parole,
Speaker 5: he will still be considered a guilty man.
Speaker 1: And does he have a parole date.
Speaker 5: I don't think there's a date so far, but there
Speaker 5: should be a hearing some time around March.
Speaker 4: Right, and you know that's going to be that's going
Speaker 4: to be an interesting hearing. I'm curious if the state
Speaker 4: is going to show up again because the last three
Speaker 4: times that Leo has had parole, and you know, he's
Speaker 4: he's served his minimum sentence of twenty five years. He's
Speaker 4: a model inmate. He's started programs. He says to us,
Speaker 4: you know, I had to invent programs to graduate from
Speaker 4: in prison. He has like no disciplinary record.
Speaker 3: He's just he's the model inmate.
Speaker 5: Yah. Right, I think it's been like sixteen seventeen years
Speaker 5: since he's been written up for any sort of disciplinary thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's and all minors stuff that never happens in prison, right,
Speaker 4: But his refusal to apologize and take responsibility for killing
Speaker 4: Michelle is what's keeping him behind bars. And every time
Speaker 4: he's up for parole, the parole commissioners seem ready to
Speaker 4: release him, but then the state attorney or an assistant state
Speaker 4: attorney shows up, throws out the autopsy pictures and says,
Speaker 4: never apologize, never said I'm sorry, and the commissioners just
Speaker 4: sort of flip and change their opinion and deny his parole,
Speaker 4: and it's well, will this.
Speaker 1: Time be different?
Speaker 2: Now that you know we have again Jeremy confessing on
Speaker 2: tape to you guys, do you think this time could
Speaker 2: be different?
Speaker 3: I think that the.
Speaker 4: Public awareness of Leo's case could be different. I think
Speaker 4: there could be, you know, a media scene at his parole,
Speaker 4: like expecting him to be paroled. I think I think
Speaker 4: I know a lot of people in Florida who's told
Speaker 4: me they want they plan on attending that, and I
Speaker 4: wouldn't be surprised if there's a large crowd there to
Speaker 4: see Leo get parole, but you.
Speaker 3: Know, it remains to be seen.
Speaker 4: Does the State Attorney's office want to continue to resist
Speaker 4: this and to fight this and to sort of double
Speaker 4: down on Leo? I think that will be a really
Speaker 4: interesting question because that parole is coming up in you know,
Speaker 4: just a few months.
Speaker 2: Well, I was, I guess, you know, one of the
Speaker 2: questions people keep asking is why is the state's attorney
Speaker 2: office so adamant on keeping this person in prison when
Speaker 2: we have someone confessing, we have the evidence, you know
Speaker 2: everything you guys have said, what is going on?
Speaker 4: You know, it's just I think it's just this culture
Speaker 4: of protecting convictions and you know, this finality that's sort
Speaker 4: of built into the system. There's political reasons for it.
Speaker 4: They don't like to lose convictions sometimes. You know, in
Speaker 4: this particular case, the assistant state attorney who prosecute is
Speaker 4: no longer alive. He was also Jeremy's prosecutor, and so
Speaker 4: it's complicated. You know, why is this guy going into
Speaker 4: an office by himself, without a tape recorder and a
Speaker 4: witness and interviewing Jeremy about this particular crime. It's just like,
Speaker 4: I think it's completely unethical, and so I think They're
Speaker 4: not only having to defend the conviction of Leo, but
Speaker 4: now they have to defend their office because we're accusing
Speaker 4: their office of of certain unethical behaviors. And so I
Speaker 4: think it's just sort of a way of doubling down.
Speaker 4: Just Oh, it's just guys promoting a podcast. It's just
Speaker 4: the you know, the media, don't listen to them. We
Speaker 4: know what we're doing. They're completely opposed to conviction Integative
Speaker 4: Review units in Polk County. You know, they told Kelsey
Speaker 4: in an interview that, you know, we get it right,
Speaker 4: you know, we don't need the Conviction Integative reviewunonit like
Speaker 4: they do in Tampa and Jacksonville.
Speaker 2: That is just so arrogant and just like anyone who
Speaker 2: says that, it's like people who are like, I'm not racist,
Speaker 2: they're probably racist.
Speaker 1: If you need to announce you're not racist.
Speaker 2: Like, we don't get it, we don't get it wrong,
Speaker 2: you probably are getting it wrong right.
Speaker 4: And one of Teresa Hall, we interviewed from the Conviction
Speaker 4: Integative Union in Hillsborough County, and she was like, you know,
Speaker 4: if if a plane falls out of the sky, there's
Speaker 4: going to be an investigation because we don't want that
Speaker 4: to happen again. If a doctor, a surgeon loses a
Speaker 4: patient on the table that shouldn't die, we want an investigation.
Speaker 4: We want to make sure that that doesn't happen again.
Speaker 4: With lawyers who are dealing with life and death issues
Speaker 4: for some reason, lawyers who sue airlines and you know,
Speaker 4: sue doctors and hospitals, but they don't want their own
Speaker 4: work looked at. It doesn't make any sense. We know
Speaker 4: that they get cases wrong. We have a very healthy
Speaker 4: record of exonerations in this country of people who are
Speaker 4: wrongly convicted and released from death row. So you are
Speaker 4: getting it wrong. Why are you afraid of an investigation?
Speaker 2: Well, and to be clear for listeners, it is particularly
Speaker 2: designed that way by prosecutorial immunity qualified immunity. So just
Speaker 2: so listeners know, this isn't a fluke. It is designed
Speaker 2: so they cannot be held accountable, right, And that's.
Speaker 4: To me is like the most disgusting part of this
Speaker 4: thing is like, you know, we looked into the history
Speaker 4: of the of the tenth State Attorney's Office, and you know,
Speaker 4: we found some cases of the wrongful convictions, and we
Speaker 4: found evidence that state attorneys were hiding exculpatory evidence from
Speaker 4: the defense, and I just thought about that, like if
Speaker 4: and these guys, by the way, they get their name
Speaker 4: mentioned in a Florida Supreme Court opinion, they don't lose
Speaker 4: their job.
Speaker 3: They can continued to.
Speaker 4: Prosecute after doing this, and you know, sending someone to
Speaker 4: prison for the rest of their life wrongfully, there's no consequences.
Speaker 4: I was thinking if I was to say, I'm writing
Speaker 4: a book like Devil and the Grove and I find
Speaker 4: a legal document where all the Groveland boys like confess
Speaker 4: to their lawyers and said, we did this, you got
Speaker 4: to get us off. And I said, well, that doesn't
Speaker 4: fit my narrative.
Speaker 3: I'm hiding that.
Speaker 4: I'm going to put that in a box and never
Speaker 4: see it and not have it affect my narrative. You know,
Speaker 4: if I got caught doing that, my book would be
Speaker 4: pulled from the shelves and I wouldn't get.
Speaker 3: Another publishing contract.
Speaker 4: Right, So I have more accountability than the State Attorney's
Speaker 4: office does. And so this whole thing about the integrity
Speaker 4: of the courts being more important than you know, the
Speaker 4: court of public opinion, I don't buy it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So obviously this podcast got a lot of people
Speaker 2: riled up.
Speaker 1: How can they help Leo?
Speaker 5: Well, we do. We do have a petition out there.
Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure it is on the Lava for Good website.
Speaker 5: It is a change dot org petition that is was
Speaker 5: put together by the Innocence Project of Florida, who represent Leo.
Speaker 5: And so what you know, they're calling for, what we
Speaker 5: are supporting the call for is a transfer of Leo's
Speaker 5: case to one of these districts that has a conviction
Speaker 5: integrity review unit, because we think if somebody is able
Speaker 5: to really take, you know, a look at the full case,
Speaker 5: at all the evidence that, you know, everything that's come
Speaker 5: forward over the years, they'll see exactly what we know,
Speaker 5: which is that Leo is innocent and that Jeremy Scott
Speaker 5: killed Michelle Schofield. And you know, we're hoping that some
Speaker 5: sort of independent review can happen. And so the petition, signing,
Speaker 5: the petition, getting more attention for that is kind of
Speaker 5: what we're we're putting our energy towards right now. I
Speaker 5: don't know what else, Gilbert, you you're a little more
Speaker 5: tuned into this at this point.
Speaker 4: No, I mean, right now, that seems to be the
Speaker 4: thing the stage that we're working for is like, we're
Speaker 4: just sort of supporting the Florida Innocence Project's efforts to
Speaker 4: get this petition signed. I believe that there will be
Speaker 4: other things that will come up as this sort of
Speaker 4: aftermath of Bone Valley sort of develops. I think, you know,
Speaker 4: it could be in any direction, but we're waiting. There's
Speaker 4: a lot of people listening to this in Florida, and
Speaker 4: a lot of people have reached out and said they
Speaker 4: want to help and they want to do something about this.
Speaker 4: And that was very much the feeling I had with
Speaker 4: Devil and the Grove of when people started coming up
Speaker 4: to me saying we're going to do something about this,
Speaker 4: and suddenly this political movement began, and sure enough, then
Speaker 4: it comes across the desk of the governor at the time,
Speaker 4: and that's when the pardon started.
Speaker 3: So hopefully enough people will.
Speaker 4: Listen and that kind of you know, grassroots effort will
Speaker 4: begin again.
Speaker 2: I don't know if this will surprise you guys, but
Speaker 2: a lot of people want to help Jeremy as well.
Speaker 2: They want to send him stamps. Will you be able
Speaker 2: to put out his mailing address so people can do that.
Speaker 4: You know, we're working on that right now there's Jeremy's
Speaker 4: in a different situation than Leo because he's in the
Speaker 4: solitary confinement and he's not allowed to nobody's allowed to
Speaker 4: receive stamps anymore. They cut that back at the at
Speaker 4: the Department of Corrections in Florida, so all the mail
Speaker 4: has to go to this one clearing house in Tampa
Speaker 4: and then it gets delivered to the various prisons and
Speaker 4: Jeremy gets a copy of whatever letter you'd send. We're
Speaker 4: trying to figure out a way because I've had a
Speaker 4: lot of people contact me saying they want to put
Speaker 4: some money in his canteen. They heard about, you know,
Speaker 4: how broke he was and he couldn't buy soap, and
Speaker 4: they just wanted to reach out and help. And so
Speaker 4: we're trying to figure out a way to have maybe
Speaker 4: a middle person be the collector of this, and we
Speaker 4: just haven't been able to solve it yet, but we
Speaker 4: are working on it.
Speaker 2: So if people want to stay updated on you know,
Speaker 2: the petition, how to contact Jeremy, where do they go?
Speaker 5: So with the petition, if you signed the petition, you
Speaker 5: will receive updates if you know if there are any
Speaker 5: updates posted to the petition, you will be notified that
Speaker 5: if you sign it, so that is also motivation to
Speaker 5: sign the petition so you can get those kind of updates.
Speaker 5: But we're also Gilbert and I are both on Twitter
Speaker 5: and are updating with whenever stuff comes through. Also Lava
Speaker 5: for Good. If you follow Lava for Good on social media,
Speaker 5: they're definitely going to be posting any updates related to this.
Speaker 5: So yeah, just you know, be on the lookout for
Speaker 5: stuff on social media and with the petition.
Speaker 4: Hey, Maggie, I have a question for you. What are
Speaker 4: you working on right now? What do you have going on?
Speaker 2: Well, we are working on season two of Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 2: with Me Maggie Freeling, and that is going to launch
Speaker 2: January ninth, and you can find that in the regular
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction feed with me and Jason and.
Speaker 1: I'm very excited. This season is just some of the
Speaker 1: most egregious cases.
Speaker 2: We're really focusing on women, so everyone should listen and yeah,
Speaker 2: I can't wait.
Speaker 3: That's great.
Speaker 1: Gilbert Kelsey, thank you so much for talking with me.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening, Thank you for answering listeners questions,
Speaker 2: my questions.
Speaker 1: We really appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Oh, Maggie, thanks so much. It's such a pleasure to
Speaker 4: actually do an interview with.
Speaker 3: You and really talk to you.
Speaker 1: Well, you interviewed me last time, so this has been