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Speaker 1: Hello, y'all.

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Speaker 2: I'm Maggie Freeling, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and the host

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Speaker 2: of Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling, And this is a

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Speaker 2: bonus episode of Bone Valley. So I'm here with Gilbert

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Speaker 2: King and Kelsey Decker and I'm going to ask them

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Speaker 2: some of my questions, some of your questions all about

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Speaker 2: the behind the scenes of Bone Valley. So, Gilbert and Kelsey.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Hey, Maggie, how you doing.

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Speaker 1: I'm good. How are y'all good?

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Speaker 3: Really good?

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Speaker 2: So one of my first questions is, as someone who

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Speaker 2: has done projects like this, it takes a lot of time.

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Speaker 2: But you guys started working on this quite a while ago.

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Speaker 2: So can you tell me when you started working on

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Speaker 2: this how much time you spent in Florida?

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Speaker 1: What was that like?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll say it took us over four years to

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Speaker 4: do this. So you know, obviously we worked through COVID

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Speaker 4: and so that that sort of slowed us down. There

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Speaker 4: were a few things that slowed us down. We were

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Speaker 4: trying to reach Jeremy Scott and he was constantly being

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Speaker 4: put in disciplinary confinement, and then with COVID, so there

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Speaker 4: we were a lot of waiting around as well. But

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Speaker 4: I would say we kept ourselves pretty busy with this.

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Speaker 4: We had the extra time. We were a lot of waiting,

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Speaker 4: so we just tried to do more and more research

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Speaker 4: and just keep digging. And so that was our experience.

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Speaker 4: Why it took so long.

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Speaker 2: Right, and because I remember at one point you said like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is a letter, you know, from our first letter

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Speaker 2: to Jeremy, and like, what was it twenty nineteen you

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Speaker 2: wrote him or twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it was like I think the first

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Speaker 4: time we wrote him was like early twenty twenty, like

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Speaker 4: during the pandemic, and he didn't respond for seven months,

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Speaker 4: and I think we sent out a bunch of letters

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Speaker 4: finally just started writing back to us.

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Speaker 1: So and you guys moved to Florida.

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Speaker 4: Go ahead, Calsey, you can tell about the big movie

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Speaker 4: with your pickup truck.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean we moved to Florida for about

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Speaker 5: three months. So it was the summer of twenty nineteen. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: I have, yeah, summer of twenty nineteen, so we were

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Speaker 5: there for a few months. We are kind of like

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Speaker 5: home base. There was Saint Petersburg. We weren't entirely sure.

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Speaker 5: We wanted to spend all of our time in like,

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Speaker 5: but we were making the drive back and forth quite

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Speaker 5: a bit. But yeah, it was it was an interesting

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Speaker 5: start to like the real reporting in the case, just

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Speaker 5: you know, being down there in the midst of it.

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Speaker 2: So it's kind of important to do that, you know,

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Speaker 2: when I did my podcast Murder and Alliance, which was

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Speaker 2: investigating a wrongful conviction. I pretty much lived in Ohio

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Speaker 2: for a good year. Did locals know you guys?

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Speaker 1: Like, what was that?

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Speaker 6: Like?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we would run into the same people our home

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Speaker 4: base a lot of times. We would drive It was

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Speaker 4: about forty five minutes from Saint Pete to Lakeland, and

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Speaker 4: our home base became the Lakeland Public Library, and they

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Speaker 4: actually gave us a room in there that we would

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Speaker 4: use for interviews. So it worked out really well. And

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Speaker 4: there's also some a lot of research to do in

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Speaker 4: Lakeland from you know, historical research that was right in

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Speaker 4: the library. But I remember that as just being a

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Speaker 4: lot of fun and every morning, like just getting up

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Speaker 4: and you know, drinking coffee on the way, going across

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Speaker 4: the Skyway bridge and just driving to Lakeland and just

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Speaker 4: like doing prep in the car for the interview is

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Speaker 4: that we have to do that day and I just

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Speaker 4: it was really a fun like commute to actually have

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Speaker 4: to do that, and I think, yeah, we started running

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Speaker 4: into a lot of people that we'd known. There was

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Speaker 4: one point, I don't know if you remember this Kelsey,

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Speaker 4: where I was kind of not paying attention and I

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Speaker 4: almost ran over a guy around one of those lakes,

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Speaker 4: and he was like, I just spoke. I did a

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Speaker 4: talk down there, some legal talk, and we made eye

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Speaker 4: contact and I knew I know him, and I sent

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Speaker 4: him a little quick email. I said, hey, sorry, I

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Speaker 4: think I just tried to run you over, and he

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Speaker 4: was like, I knew that was you.

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Speaker 3: Don't worry about it.

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Speaker 2: So listeners do want to know, though, if Gilbert, your

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Speaker 2: familiarity with Florida from your other book, Devil and the Grove, if.

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Speaker 1: Any of those connections helped you with this case.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I would. I would definitely say they did. You know,

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of people like I did two books

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Speaker 4: down there, so I've spent about fifteen years down there

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Speaker 4: in this part of central Florida, and so.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people know me.

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Speaker 4: And I think there's like a benefit to having some connections,

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Speaker 4: Like you know, sometimes we'll be writing something and trying

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Speaker 4: to figure out something in terms of like a Supreme

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Speaker 4: Court Florida's Supreme Court decision, and I'm not really entirely

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Speaker 4: sure what the you know, what to make of the decision,

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Speaker 4: And like there are I'm friendly with some of the

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Speaker 4: Florida Supreme Court justices, so I can actually call them

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Speaker 4: up and say, hey, can you explain your opinion in

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Speaker 4: that particular case. And so there's a lot of that

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Speaker 4: local stuff that I think really paid off. And same

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Speaker 4: with just having going down there and speaking all the time,

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Speaker 4: I run into a lot of people that I know,

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Speaker 4: and they seem more eager to help me.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely So Kelsey, this was all

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Speaker 2: really new to you. You were pretty much just out

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Speaker 2: of college and now you're eyeballs deep in a really

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Speaker 2: crazy wrongful conviction case, murder case, another murder case.

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Speaker 1: What was all this like for you?

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Speaker 7: You know, I just kind of had to take it

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Speaker 7: a day at a time sometimes because yeah, every phase

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Speaker 7: of this project was something just entirely new for me.

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Speaker 5: But you know, having having Gilbert there there was always support. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: he was my cheerleader every step of the way. So yeah,

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Speaker 5: I mean it was an amazing experience. Like first job.

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Speaker 5: I think this is you know, maybe kind of a

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Speaker 5: dream job for a lot of people, and here I am,

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Speaker 5: like right out of college, just diving right into it.

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Speaker 5: So I felt very lucky in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 5: But there were definitely moments where I felt I was

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Speaker 5: in a little over my head having to kind of

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Speaker 5: learn some of the stuff as I went along. But

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Speaker 5: here I am, I made it, and I am, you know,

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Speaker 5: really happy I've been able to see it through to

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Speaker 5: the end. And yeah, I mean I just care so

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Speaker 5: much about the story. It was something I just you know,

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Speaker 5: was very motivated to continue learning and committing to and

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Speaker 5: putting everything I could into it.

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Speaker 2: So how did your relationship the two of you? How

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Speaker 2: did it change over the course of four years? I

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Speaker 2: mean that's a long time. And Kelsey, again, like you

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Speaker 2: were very new, so I'm sure by the end you

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Speaker 2: were a rock star investigator.

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Speaker 1: But so how did it all change?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think, you know, part of the thing with

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Speaker 4: this is like I have a lot of researchers and

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Speaker 4: they're based in New York, and they're actually guys who

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Speaker 4: are older than me, and like it just for them

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Speaker 4: to just upend themselves and move down to Florida was

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Speaker 4: just not going to happen for them. You know, they

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Speaker 4: had families, they have commitments, and and so you really

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Speaker 4: need somebody who has the flexibility to do something like this,

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Speaker 4: and so I think Kelsey came in as a researcher.

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Speaker 4: Basically I had a couple different projects going, and I

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Speaker 4: remember specifically I was trying to decide, like there was

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Speaker 4: a TV thing, a new book, and I was trying

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Speaker 4: to prioritize, and then Leo's case came across my desk

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Speaker 4: and Kelsey started looking into it, and I remember there

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Speaker 4: was a moment I said, well, Kelsey, like what what

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Speaker 4: do you think I should prioritize what project? And I

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Speaker 4: remember her specifically saying like, well, it looks like there's

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Speaker 4: an innocent man in prison that one. And it just

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Speaker 4: like this moment of clarity, like yeah, of course we

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Speaker 4: have to do that one. And so that was really

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Speaker 4: an inspiration to get going. And you know, Kelsey started

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Speaker 4: as a researcher, but because like we decided to pivot

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Speaker 4: to a podcast while we were down there, you know,

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Speaker 4: she had to learn all the audio recording and sort

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Speaker 4: of was all self taught, and so like she's moving

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Speaker 4: through this going from researcher to you know, audio recordists

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Speaker 4: to producer and all these different skills that she had

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Speaker 4: to learn for this job. So I really need somebody

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Speaker 4: flexible in, somebody who's not afraid of learning.

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Speaker 3: And she was it.

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Speaker 1: Wow, would you agree with all that, Kelsey?

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Speaker 5: I guess, so yeah, I didn't have much to lose

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Speaker 5: with upending my entire life and going down to Florida

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Speaker 5: and learning everything on the job.

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Speaker 2: Well, were you nervous like to go down just like

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Speaker 2: you and Gilbert that he's a terrifying human, but like

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm you didn't know him that well, Like,

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Speaker 2: was that weird to start off, just like the two of.

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Speaker 5: You, Yeah, it was. It was a little weird, but

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Speaker 5: we fell into like a rhythm pretty quickly. I mean

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Speaker 5: by that time, we'd already we were already both like

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Speaker 5: very invested in this case and this story. So yeah,

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Speaker 5: I mean we we were so obsessed with it at

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Speaker 5: that point. We were talking about it constantly, and so

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Speaker 5: like it felt pretty natural after a little time passed.

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Speaker 5: And I'm actually I was born in Florida, so also,

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Speaker 5: like the landscape there was kind of familiar to me.

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Speaker 5: I have some family down there, so there was like

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Speaker 5: a little bit of familiarity in that aspect as well.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's what I was going to ask you. So

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Speaker 2: where were you both like coming from? You were coming

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Speaker 2: from New York, Gilbert, is that are you from New York?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm originally from upstate New York, but I've been

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Speaker 4: in I've been in New York for the last thirty

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Speaker 4: something years, so yeah, I'm a New Yorker. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: you know, and I'm really used to Florida. I think

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Speaker 4: there was some you know, weird things of like when

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Speaker 4: we were like basically roommates for a couple months, and

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Speaker 4: like I think Kelsey was like, am I supposed to cook?

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Speaker 4: Is that part of my chob realize like he doesn't cook.

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Speaker 4: He just eats out all the time.

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Speaker 5: It's true.

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Speaker 4: Yeah New York, Yeah exactly, but but yeah, I just

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Speaker 4: it was it was it was an adjustment, especially but

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Speaker 4: once we built into the schedule and like we'd stay home,

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Speaker 4: do all the phone calls, do all the prep work there,

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Speaker 4: and then just go out in the field in Lakeland,

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Speaker 4: And it was really nice to be able to get

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Speaker 4: away from Polk County and just be working outside of

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Speaker 4: Polk county because I don't really like working in the

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Speaker 4: counties that, you know, because then people start snooping around

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Speaker 4: and they know where you are, and you see them

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Speaker 4: around and they know where you are. I didn't want

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Speaker 4: to deal with.

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Speaker 2: That, so right, right, So so getting to the case,

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Speaker 2: did you go into this skeptical of his innocence? I mean,

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Speaker 2: I know this came across your desk from a very

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Speaker 2: reputable person, a former judge. You know, honestly, did you

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Speaker 2: go into it thinking, Okay, this is an innocent man

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Speaker 2: or how did you guys go into this?

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Speaker 1: Were you ever skeptical of his innocence?

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Speaker 4: I'm always skeptical, and even though this came to me

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Speaker 4: through a judge, I just it's not that I don't

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Speaker 4: trust anybody, but I just have to like know for

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Speaker 4: myself that I'm going into something that I know enough

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Speaker 4: about it. And so there were months that went by

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Speaker 4: where it was just research, and you know, it did

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Speaker 4: help that Judge Cup was vouching for him. But I

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Speaker 4: think I try to put a timetable on this. I

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Speaker 4: think it was, you know, at least weeks before I said,

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Speaker 4: it really looks like this guy could really be innocent,

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Speaker 4: and you know, from reading from the transcript, it was

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Speaker 4: pretty obvious to me that he was not rightfully convicted.

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Speaker 4: But once we got down there and met Leo and

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Speaker 4: started doing our own real deep research on it, it

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Speaker 4: was pretty clear.

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Speaker 3: To us that we were dealing with an innocent man.

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Speaker 1: Kelsey, would you agree.

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Speaker 5: With that, Yeah, definitely. I mean I think before we

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Speaker 5: met Leo for the very first time, we tried to

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Speaker 5: read everything we could get our hands, and so we

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Speaker 5: had a really good understanding of yeah, of like how

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Speaker 5: the trial went, what evidence was there, but you know,

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Speaker 5: you never you never really know, like everything doesn't come

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Speaker 5: out in court. He could be wrongfully convicted and not

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Speaker 5: necessarily be innocent. I think there is a little bit

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Speaker 5: of a distinction there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, go distinction then for listeners.

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Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, Gilbert might be better at explaining this. This

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Speaker 5: is a distinction. Judge Scott Cupp drew, you know, the

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Speaker 5: very first time I met him, and probably the first

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Speaker 5: time Gilbert spoke to him as well, that you know,

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Speaker 5: stuff can go wrong at trial, like prosecutors can do

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Speaker 5: shady things, and it can somebody can be convicted on

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Speaker 5: bad evidence or I don't know, Yeah, I mean, things

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Speaker 5: can go wrong. But maybe they actually did do the crime,

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Speaker 5: or maybe they had some knowledge of it or something

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Speaker 5: like that. This in Leo's case, he wasn't there. He

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Speaker 5: didn't do it, he didn't know anything about it, which

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Speaker 5: I think is where at least Judge Scott cup would

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Speaker 5: draw the line it like, you know, he's innocent, he

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Speaker 5: didn't know anything about it, he wasn't there. But yeah,

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Speaker 5: so we had all of that, all of the documentation,

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Speaker 5: that information and going into meet Leo, and then I think,

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Speaker 5: you know, that first meeting, after hearing him speak, that

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Speaker 5: kind of really solidified things for us that it was like,

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Speaker 5: it was really hard for us to kind of wrap

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Speaker 5: our head around how he could be guilty after that

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Speaker 5: first meeting.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, that's a really good point. And I think

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Speaker 4: sometimes you can get to a point where the prosecutor

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Speaker 4: just doesn't prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt, but

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Speaker 4: you know, a person can still be guilty. And so

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Speaker 4: that was one of the things that I was trying

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Speaker 4: to always consider. But I think what made this case

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Speaker 4: really interesting is you have this other person involved in

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Speaker 4: this who is actually confessed to the murder, and so

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Speaker 4: the investigation starts to go to him too, and I

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Speaker 4: remember just specifically having a thought like if Leo, if

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Speaker 4: I ever catch him lying to me, or if he

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Speaker 4: was trying to mislead me or being really not transparent

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Speaker 4: about certain things, that's going to lead to more skepticism.

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Speaker 4: And I just to devote this much time and energy

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Speaker 4: to a case that could fall apart on me. You know,

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Speaker 4: I think back on the NAACP and when they were

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Speaker 4: doing these cases in the forties and fifties, they couldn't

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Speaker 4: afford a single loss. So when they were going down

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Speaker 4: there and defending innocent people, they had to make sure

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Speaker 4: that that person was innocent because a loss would be

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Speaker 4: too damaging. And you certainly don't want that coming back

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Speaker 4: on us. But you know, once we were aware of

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Speaker 4: who Jeremy Scott was and we started investigating him, it

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Speaker 4: became not only a problem, you know, a situation where

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Speaker 4: Leo's not only innocent, but it's this guy. This guy

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Speaker 4: did it, And that was what was really intriguing to us.

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Speaker 2: I'm Maggie Freeling checking in with Gilbert King and Kelsey

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Speaker 2: Decker from Bone Valley and we will be right back.

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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 6: I'm Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for Good.

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Speaker 6: Podcasts Home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs,

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Speaker 4: Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is

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Speaker 4: a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers

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Speaker 3: Across the country.

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Speaker 4: As a foster mom, Christina came into contact with the

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Speaker 4: War on drugs when she saw how it was ripping

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Speaker 4: apart the family she worked with. She witnessed how kids

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Speaker 4: were affected and how mothers wanted something better for their families,

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Speaker 4: Dent started a nonprofit called End It for Good because

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Speaker 4: she knew there was a better solution to help these families.

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Speaker 4: She's working to end the War on Drugs in Mississippi

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Speaker 4: War on drugs, listen to the War on Drug Podcast

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Speaker 4: on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: One of the more powerful moments for a lot of

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Speaker 2: listeners was in chapter two when you go to the

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Speaker 2: evidence room together.

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Speaker 1: What was that like and why was that so emotional?

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Speaker 1: Particularly for you? Kelsey?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So, I think by the time we went and

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Speaker 5: viewed those photos, we'd already been down in Florida for

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Speaker 5: a couple months. We'd spoken to Leo a number of times,

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Speaker 5: we'd spoken to you know, a lot of the people

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Speaker 5: you hear in the podcast already. So you know, by

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Speaker 5: that point, I was pretty deep into the story, and

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Speaker 5: you know, I felt like I did have kind of

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Speaker 5: a sense of who Michelle was, and you know she

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Speaker 5: by that point, you know, she really felt like somebody

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Speaker 5: I knew to some degree, and I think just going there,

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Speaker 5: like I knew some of what we were going to

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Speaker 5: be seeing, but I don't know, it's it's just it's

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Speaker 5: hard to be prepared for, you know, actually seeing the

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Speaker 5: violence and yeah, I don't know, just the the trauma

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Speaker 5: and the violence of all of it. Just really the brutality.

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Speaker 5: It just I don't know, it really hit.

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Speaker 1: Me, the brutality of it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: And there's just also something about, you know, going through

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Speaker 4: and having this lead up to the evidence. They showing

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Speaker 4: us all the physical evidence that the plywood that's resting

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Speaker 4: on her body, we're seeing the downy bottle that was

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Speaker 4: smeared with blood, and then you start seeing clothing to clothing. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that starts when you start seeing all the bloodstains on

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Speaker 4: that and the and the tears and the rips from

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Speaker 4: the knife, and then you know, the finally they bring

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Speaker 4: out the pictures from the autopsy, and you know, it's

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Speaker 4: just you feel like you've seen pictures of her. Now,

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Speaker 4: you've talked to her family members, You've talked to Leo,

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Speaker 4: you talk to Michelle's brother, and it's just hard to

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Speaker 4: get that out of your head. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 4: we're always doing debriefings and just keeping the recorder going,

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Speaker 4: and I think just we got back to the car

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Speaker 4: and like Kelsey made it through all of that, the

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Speaker 4: whole evidence room, but I think it's just like sort

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Speaker 4: of snuck up on her and hit her. I don't know,

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Speaker 4: but you held off through the whole through the whole

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Speaker 4: evidence room, but it was just you know, you got

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Speaker 4: away from it and that's where it hit you, I guess.

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Speaker 2: But I think sometimes it's the processing, you know, like

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Speaker 2: I tell our producers, like when I'm doing these interviews,

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Speaker 2: you know as a journalist, Gilbert and Kelsey, now you'll

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Speaker 2: know too, like you just sometimes have this wall up

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Speaker 2: to get through it. And then it's after the fact

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Speaker 2: when I go back and i'm transcribing and I'm listening

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Speaker 2: to the interview that I'm like, oh, now I'm processing it,

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Speaker 2: and it's really hitting what was said or what you're

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Speaker 2: looking at.

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Speaker 4: Definitely, that's a really good point That happens to me

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Speaker 4: a lot too, And I'm sort of, you know, you're

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Speaker 4: in the moment, but you're asking questions, you're thinking of

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00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,680
Speaker 4: things to ask, you're trying to get into the flow

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Speaker 4: of the interview, and you're in a different space, and

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Speaker 4: then you go back and listen to it. We had

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Speaker 4: the same experience with Jeremy just going back and listening

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Speaker 4: to it. It just it sounded even more powerful than

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Speaker 4: it did when we were there in person, just hearing

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Speaker 4: his voice crack and the pain and torture that he

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Speaker 4: was feeling. It almost like flew by me a little

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Speaker 4: bit while we were in the room.

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Speaker 1: But boy, well sometimes it does.

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Speaker 2: And that's like for listeners to know, Like when you're

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Speaker 2: in that room, you're really like, well, I got to

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Speaker 2: get this question, and is my tape recorder working? Like

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Speaker 2: it is very hard to do eighty thousand things and

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Speaker 2: focus on the interview and process it all at once.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, definitely what listeners are hearing is very crafted,

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Speaker 2: for sure.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know, we did so much prep for

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Speaker 4: that in that interview, just by the way, you know,

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Speaker 4: and it was I think it was clearly the best

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Speaker 4: interview we've ever done. Like it was the last one

405
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Speaker 4: we did, basically, but it was the best one. I

406
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,679
Speaker 4: think we were so prepared for and we were just

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00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,920
Speaker 4: working off each other and he was being so responsive

408
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 4: to both of us. It was a really incredible thing

409
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,120
Speaker 4: to go back and listen to that and think, Wow,

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00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 4: I cannot believe we got all that out of them.

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Speaker 1: Are you still in touch with Jeremy?

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00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's really difficult to reach again. He wrote me

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Speaker 4: a letter. It was a couple of months ago. I

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Speaker 4: hadn't heard from him a long time. It was a

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Speaker 4: really short message and he said, you know, dear mister King,

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Speaker 4: I don't hold a grudge against you for doing this story.

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Speaker 4: I wish you the best, but the monster in me

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Speaker 4: is coming out and I'm going to be locked up

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Speaker 4: for a long time.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, what is this?

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Speaker 4: You know, this was a short note that I got

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Speaker 4: from him and then found out like a couple days

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Speaker 4: later he was involved in some kind of altercation with

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Speaker 4: a weapon and he got moved to a different prison

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Speaker 4: and put in solitary confinement. Don't really know the details

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00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 4: of it, but he's locked up for a long time,

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Speaker 4: so I don't know, you know, that's kind of a

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Speaker 4: life he's led in prison. It's extraordinarily violent, extraordinarily impulsive,

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Speaker 4: he gets moved around constantly, there's psychiatric issues.

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Speaker 3: But I do try to stay in touch with him.

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Speaker 4: And we just got another letter from him last week

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Speaker 4: and so he was writing again. So I'm going to

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Speaker 4: stay in touch with him. I think I'm the only

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Speaker 4: one who's writing to him.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you about that, because I'm sure

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of listeners who are going to go,

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Speaker 2: why he's a violent, horrible, murderous person.

438
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,200
Speaker 1: Why stay in touch with him?

439
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 4: You know, I don't know a really great answer to that,

440
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 4: other than he is a human being, and he exposed

441
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 4: part of himself and it's you know, really came clean

442
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 4: about the nightmares that he has and the punishment that

443
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 4: he's feeling in the torture he's having. And I do

444
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 4: believe that he's trying to help himself by clearing his

445
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 4: conscience of this. And also I think he's trying to

446
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 4: help Leo. And I just see that as something admirable,

447
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 4: and Leo is thankful for it. And basically we follow

448
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 4: Leo's lead on a lot of these kind of moral

449
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 4: and ethical decisions.

450
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's definitely something I care about,

451
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 5: Like I don't I do want to stay in touch

452
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,120
Speaker 5: with Jeremy, I know, like I never want to downplay

453
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 5: all of the harm he's caused. But I feel for

454
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 5: Jeremy too, like he's he's had it really rough, he

455
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 5: really never had a chance in life, and as much

456
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 5: harm as he's caused, I still feel like, I don't know,

457
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 5: he deserves a little compassion, and I you know what, Yeah,

458
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,159
Speaker 5: I agree with Gilbert. He's trying to tell the truth,

459
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 5: I think, and I think he's genuine and he's remorseful,

460
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:40,400
Speaker 5: and I don't know, I want him to know that

461
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,959
Speaker 5: that's not going unnoticed. Like I want him to know

462
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 5: that he's doing a good thing and he's doing the

463
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,640
Speaker 5: right thing, and he should be proud of that.

464
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 2: I think, you know, that's probably why all of us

465
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 2: are on this network, because not only are we journalists,

466
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 2: but we're also humans and we recognize is the humanity

467
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 2: in people. And I think all of us would agree

468
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 2: that nobody is defined by the worst day of their life.

469
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, I think that's really beautiful

470
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 2: that you guys put in Jeremy's story and took so

471
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 2: much care to show that he was once a kid

472
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 2: and you know, he became a product of his environment,

473
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 2: which is really, really tragic, and I really appreciate you

474
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 2: guys putting that in there.

475
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think you know, he's taken responsibility for

476
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,160
Speaker 4: his acts. He's confessed to all the murders he's committed.

477
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 4: He knows he's not ever getting out of prison. He

478
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 4: really shouldn't get out of prison. He's extraordinarily violent and impulsive.

479
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 4: But you know, it doesn't mean we still can't care

480
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 4: for him and wish for him the best in the

481
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 4: rest of his days. And the fact that he has

482
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 4: nobody to talk to, and you know, I'm the only

483
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 4: one he's writing to. You know, that comes with some

484
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 4: kind of responsibility. You know, I'm I don't want to

485
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 4: be his best friend, but I do want to be

486
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 4: there and talk to him and listen to him, and

487
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 4: you know, who knows what else he'll say.

488
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 2: Sure, speaking of Probably one of the craziest things besides

489
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 2: the actual killer confessing to the murder that someone else

490
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 2: is in prison for, is that you come across another

491
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: murder while investigating Michelle's murder. Where is that investigation at will?

492
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 2: Anyone Jeremy ever be prosecuted for that.

493
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 4: You know, this is maddening to me because we went

494
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,239
Speaker 4: several times to the Ossiola County Sheriff's office with our

495
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 4: evidence and with our letters where Jeremy started taking responsibility

496
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 4: for killing this cab driver, Joseph Lavere. It wasn't just

497
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,719
Speaker 4: his confession. We had other evidence that we put together,

498
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 4: stuff that didn't even make it into the podcast because

499
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 4: you know, we didn't really feel the need to expand

500
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 4: on this forever after he confessed. But we've brought it

501
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 4: in a couple times. We brought it into the State

502
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 4: Attorney's office, and they basically have just refused to investigate it,

503
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 4: which I just find flabbergasting. Actually, it's clear evidence they

504
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 4: have a confession, and they basically doubled down in their

505
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 4: response by saying that we believe that we prosecuted the

506
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,959
Speaker 4: right guy in dan Odie, but he wasn't convicted by

507
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 4: the jury, but we still think he's the murderer. And

508
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,199
Speaker 4: you know, for me, that's annoying because these prosecutors are

509
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 4: always talking about finality and the justice system. You got

510
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 4: to respect the jury's verdict, but here they are smearing

511
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 4: a man who's been quitted and calling him a murderer

512
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 4: because it doesn't fit their narrative.

513
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 3: I don't know why they're.

514
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 4: Not investigating it. It's just it's beyond me to understand

515
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 4: why they're doing that.

516
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: Have you talked to Joseph Laver's family.

517
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 4: You know, that's been a really tricky thing. We've tried

518
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 4: tracking him down. I've sent messages. They're scattered all over.

519
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 3: It was a broken family.

520
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 4: Joseph had gotten divorced about a year before he was murdered,

521
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 4: and so the family just kind of scattered. He had

522
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 4: a young son at the time, who's maybe one or

523
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 4: two years old, and tried to find him, but he's

524
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 4: locked away in jail as well, and they just haven't

525
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 4: been able to reach him. So we haven't had any

526
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 4: luck trying to get Lavera's family, and there's some other

527
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 4: reporters who have tried too and have not been able

528
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 4: to reach him. But that's definitely something we're going to

529
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 4: continue to pursue because I don't believe justice has been

530
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 4: served in that case.

531
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: So, Kelsey, something listeners want to know about is you

532
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: were always asking Gilbert about his feelings. Why did you

533
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: do that? Was that just instinctual, like what was up

534
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: with asking Gilbert about us feeling?

535
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, I suppose it was kind of instinctual, like, you know,

536
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 5: I had a feeling that we were there on the ground,

537
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 5: we were doing the work, and you know, in some

538
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 5: ways the listener is going to look to us to

539
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 5: kind of interpret what's going on and what we're seeing

540
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 5: and finding out, and some of that is sharing what

541
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 5: we're feeling and how we're processing it. And yeah, you know,

542
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 5: Gilbert started to get the hang of it. You know,

543
00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 5: it didn't come incredibly natural for him, but but we

544
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 5: made some progress there, I think, And yeah, it was

545
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 5: it was a learning curve.

546
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean I imagine Gilbert and your other reporting.

547
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 2: No one's usually putting a mic in your face and saying,

548
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 2: how do you feel about this?

549
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 3: No?

550
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 4: I hate You know, there's that line in that Departed

551
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 4: where they say where talking about Freud says that the

552
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 4: Irish or immune.

553
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 3: To therapy, it just doesn't work on the Irish.

554
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 4: That's who I feel is like, what are you asking

555
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 4: me my feelings for?

556
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 3: Who cares?

557
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's an awkward thing, and you know, there's

558
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 4: also a lot of compartmentalization that I tried to do

559
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 4: in this kind of stuff, Like, if you get really

560
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 4: emotional and thinking about the humanity and the pain and

561
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 4: all these waves of violence in the story, it can

562
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 4: really kind of paralyze you. And so I always kind

563
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 4: of put that stuff in the back and just try

564
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 4: to be in the moment with this stuff. And so

565
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 4: I think it was kind of funny when Kelsey's asking

566
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 4: me these questions about my feelings and I'm just you know,

567
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 4: doing logistical stuff and just yeah, I didn't really ever

568
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 4: get the hang of it. Just awful at those kind

569
00:27:59,480 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 4: of stuff.

570
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny because listeners seem to think you loved

571
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 2: answering and talking about your feelings, so surprise listeners who

572
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 2: did not. So so people love Bone Valley and it's

573
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 2: been my favorite podcast of the year. Why do you

574
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 2: think so many people are responding to Bone Valley? You know,

575
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: there's a million podcasts out there about cases, murders, wrongful convictions.

576
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: Why are people resonating with Bone Valley.

577
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 4: You know, I'll just take a quick stab at it,

578
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 4: but I think it comes back to the work you

579
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 4: did with Suave when it has heart.

580
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 3: Suave has heart, that story has a lot of heart.

581
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 4: And I think you know that was in our heads too,

582
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 4: Like we wanted to tell a story with heart, and

583
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 4: we want it to be you know, emotional, not just

584
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 4: a true crime like procedural.

585
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: We wanted you to care about the people.

586
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 4: And I think because we spent so much time with

587
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 4: our subjects and got to know them so well and

588
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 4: they were so comfortable talking, that you begin to care

589
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 4: about people like Chrissy, not just Leo, but just people

590
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 4: in the story. And I don't know, I just think

591
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,719
Speaker 4: there's a human and emotional connection to this story that

592
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 4: felt real while we were working on it the whole time.

593
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: Well, and that goes back to you know, the whole

594
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: being compassionate to Jeremy. You know, if you had just

595
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: treated him like a subject and not a human, I

596
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: highly doubt we would be where we are with any

597
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: of the information you got from him.

598
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's true.

599
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, like it's just I don't

600
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 4: think there's much interesting in black and white good versus evil.

601
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 4: There's a lot of those gray areas, and you know,

602
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 4: Leo has his own gray areas, right, It's really in

603
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 4: the beginning, it's really hard to feel sympathetic for him.

604
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 4: When you hear all this, you know, bad character evidence

605
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 4: coming in and he's talking about, you know, his relationship

606
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 4: with Michelle. It's not a perfect relationship. They're a young couple,

607
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 4: they have their issues. It gets a little volatile at times.

608
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 4: So Leo's not like the fuzzy bunny of wrongful convictions

609
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 4: and Jeremy. You know, Leo doesn't think Jeremy's the monster

610
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 4: he was looking for. And I think that's what really

611
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 4: makes it interesting.

612
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 5: M h.

613
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: How do you how do you think, you know, how

614
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: does Leo feel about Jeremy now today.

615
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 6: Leo is.

616
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 5: I think Leo is very grateful that Jeremy is telling

617
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:22,479
Speaker 5: the truth and that Jeremy is trying to do what

618
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 5: he can to correct this injustice. And I think, you know, Leo,

619
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 5: Leo cares about Jeremy as another human being. I think,

620
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 5: you know, kind of like us. Leo sees Jeremy as

621
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 5: somebody who who deserves respect for being a human. And

622
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 5: you know, despite all of the terrible things he's done,

623
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 5: and I know that Leo still prais for Jeremy and

624
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 5: thinks about Jeremy, And yeah, I don't know, I don't

625
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 5: know what else to add to that.

626
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think it's just a testament to Leo's

627
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 4: character and you know who he is as a person.

628
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 4: You know, in the prison, he's like extraordinarily educated. Now

629
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 4: he's a mentor to a lot of young inmates who

630
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 4: come in the jails. The prison looks to him to

631
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 4: sort of guide people who are having a difficult time.

632
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 4: He served as a mentor. There's times when we've talked

633
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 4: to him and we talk about getting out and he'll say, like,

634
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 4: I'm not sure I can actually leave this place because

635
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 4: there's so many people counting on me.

636
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 3: It's like a family.

637
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 4: And we've talked to so many people that who've echoed

638
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 4: that to us, and it's just so natural for him

639
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 4: to actually even care about Jeremy's mental well being and

640
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 4: spiritual health.

641
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely so. Has Leo heard the podcast.

642
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 4: No, he's not able to hear the podcast, which is

643
00:31:54,360 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 4: really interesting to us because he he's getting every day,

644
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 4: he gets people coming into him like guards, administrators, outside contractors.

645
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 4: He works in maintenance at the prison he's at and

646
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 4: so he has a lot of dealing with the outside

647
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 4: world and you know he I talked to him on

648
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 4: the phone just the other day, and you know, he said, Gilbert.

649
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 4: Everybody I know is telling me they listen to the podcast,

650
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 4: and guards are coming up to me and they're saying,

651
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 4: you know, I always thought that you were someone who

652
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 4: didn't seem like they belonged here in prison. But now

653
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 4: that I know your story and I know that you're innocent,

654
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 4: I just want to hug you and tell.

655
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 3: You I'm sorry.

656
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 4: And you know that has meant so much to Leo

657
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 4: to get that kind of affirmation, because you know, these

658
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 4: guys don't talk about their cases, especially with outsiders. You know,

659
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 4: it's just like not done. And now these guys are

660
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 4: listening to this podcast and realizing, you know, that Leo's innocent,

661
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 4: and you know, he says, he's been getting so many

662
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 4: updates from like on visitation days, like other inmates. Families

663
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 4: on the outside are listening and they want to meet

664
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 4: him and you know, tell him good luck, and they're

665
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 4: how sorry they are, and it's just really moving. I

666
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 4: think he's finally finally getting like the kind of feedback

667
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 4: that you know, he's always wanted, that people believe in

668
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 4: his innocence.

669
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 5: I think it's really validating for him, even though he

670
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 5: can't listen to it. It's kind of some of the

671
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 5: feedback is kind of trickling down to him, and so

672
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 5: he's able to, you know, feel some of that. And

673
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 5: we're glad he's he's able to feel a little bit

674
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 5: of it, because after all this time and all he's

675
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 5: put into it, it's kind of crazy he can't actually

676
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 5: listen to it.

677
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is.

678
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 4: I know that his sister has been reading like the

679
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 4: transcripts to him from like the last episode, and he

680
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 4: said he got all choked up about the concert.

681
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 3: You know.

682
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 4: Gilbert came to the concert and he had hurt never

683
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 4: heard that before, and I said, yeah, it's it's one

684
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 4: thing on the page, but it's one thing to actually

685
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 4: hear it, you know. Like I think I read that

686
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 4: part four times.

687
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 3: And I couldn't get through it without like breaking up.

688
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 4: And I think on the fourth one, I there's a

689
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 4: little bit of a break in my voice.

690
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 3: And we said, oh, Les, go with that one. It's

691
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 3: it's realistic. You can't.

692
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 4: You can't get through this, so you might as well

693
00:33:59,120 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 4: just be there.

694
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: It's all honest, Gilbert Kelsey, I'm just going to pause

695
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: you for a second. I think we're going to take

696
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,240
Speaker 2: a quick break and we will be back with more

697
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 2: questions for you guys, do not go anywhere.

698
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 3: Sounds good.

699
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 5: Sounds good.

700
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: So Gilbert listeners want to know, are you going to

701
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: write a book about this, because they know how impactful

702
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 2: Devil in the Grove was and they want to know

703
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: if you plan to do something similar.

704
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's something I think about. I'm a

705
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 4: big believer in the power of podcasts and what they

706
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 4: can do to right or wrong. And you know, a book,

707
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 4: I've never gotten this kind of reaction from many of

708
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 4: my books before, Like this kind of reaction I'm seeing

709
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 4: from like all these people writing me, and it's just

710
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 4: amplified and exponentially, and so, you know, there's a lot

711
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 4: of a lot of material that we couldn't get into

712
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 4: the podcast.

713
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 5: You know.

714
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 4: One of the things is we were trying to do

715
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 4: this parallel narrative that I sort of fantasized about doing.

716
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 4: Is like Jeremy on one side Leo and eventually they

717
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 4: you know, meet somewhere and yeah, but it just it

718
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 4: didn't work on the audio side. I think it could

719
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 4: work on the written side. But there's so much, so

720
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 4: many characters who didn't make it into the podcast. Some

721
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 4: detectives it just it just quite didn't quite fit. We

722
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 4: had a we have over nine hours, but still it

723
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 4: was it was a it was a labor to get

724
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 4: that down.

725
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 3: I you know, I believe that.

726
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: And so four years of work absolutely.

727
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, And we went in some directions that you know,

728
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 4: we just like the conviction and tegatory review units we did.

729
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 4: We interviewed several conviction and tegative review units. We went

730
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 4: in that direction, what does it take to overturn it?

731
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 4: And it just sort of felt like it was taking

732
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 4: us out of the immediate story of Leo and Jeremy

733
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 4: and Michelle's death. So we just sort of put that

734
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 4: stuff to the side. But there's a lot more there

735
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 4: that we didn't really really need in the podcast or

736
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 4: didn't seem to work, But I think it would work

737
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 4: in a book.

738
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 3: So it's something I'm thinking about, but I haven't decided.

739
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 5: Am I allowed to say that Leo is also contemplating

740
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 5: doing some writing.

741
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, He's talked about it.

742
00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 5: I am envisioning some sort of collaboration between Gilbert and Leo.

743
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 5: That's what I'm That's what I'm hoping for.

744
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: I would love something like that.

745
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 4: He's a superb writer. I mean he can reduce you

746
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 4: to tears with his emails and letters. I mean, he's

747
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 4: just such a thoughtful, emotional guy. There's things that he

748
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 4: says sometimes that you know, like I don't really pick

749
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 4: up until I hear it later and go, wow, did

750
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 4: he just really say that? Like he's just a really

751
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 4: interesting storyteller. And it transfers to the to the written

752
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 4: page when he writes too. So I would be honored

753
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 4: to do something like that.

754
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: Wow, we will hold our breath.

755
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: And listeners also want to know is the gang getting

756
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: back together for another podcast?

757
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 1: Another case?

758
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know how to answer that.

759
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 4: We have a couple of cases that were really interested

760
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 4: in we haven't really had a chance to explore them.

761
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 3: I would love to.

762
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 4: I think that this team that I was working with,

763
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 4: it just made this podcast so much better. Everybody brought

764
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 4: in their individual skills and.

765
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 3: Just raise the bar.

766
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 4: When I look at some of the origin scripts that

767
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 4: I wrote for this while I was just waiting around

768
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 4: for things, I said, well, I might as well start writing.

769
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 4: They are so bad compared to what we had now

770
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 4: when we had collaboration, like with Kara and Britt and

771
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 4: Kelsey and Rucks, everyone came together and just sort of

772
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 4: made everything better and it was honestly, it was a

773
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 4: dream team. I don't know, if Kelsey is like your

774
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 4: your first time experiencing any kind of collaboration, you must

775
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 4: think it's always going to be like this, But I'm

776
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 4: telling you what we had was really really special. In

777
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 4: everybody who's being on the same pages.

778
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 5: I can recognize that. And yeah, I would love for

779
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 5: the team to come back together for a second season

780
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 5: or another story or something, so certainly open to that.

781
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 5: But if that happens, the plans are still being worked out.

782
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: So the ultimate question is what is the status of

783
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: Leo's case? Right now? People are asking does he have

784
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: appeals left?

785
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 2: Someone else asked, you know, the autopsy said that the

786
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 2: killer was left hand, and did is Jeremy left handed?

787
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be important for you know, some sort of appeal?

788
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 1: What's going on?

789
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I'll just address the left handed thing

790
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 4: because it is interesting and Jeremy is left handed, and

791
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 4: you know, I think there's a case to be made,

792
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 4: like how do you stab in a car? The first

793
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 4: we didn't really try to speculate so much about what

794
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 4: exactly happened in the car. Because I think once we

795
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 4: believe all the blood was found outside the car, that's

796
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 4: where her blood had pooled. I believe that she was

797
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 4: killed outside of the car, and you know, she was

798
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 4: stabbed in both the front and the back of her torso,

799
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 4: and so clearly, like you can't really tell where Jeremy

800
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 4: might have been kneeling or standing when he was doing this,

801
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 4: and so to speculate about his left handedness, I don't

802
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 4: think it's really relevant or even something that you could

803
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 4: prove in this particular case.

804
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 5: So we've asked, we asked the crime scene expert about that,

805
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 5: and apparently, like unless you know the exact position of

806
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 5: how somebody was standing or kneeling as this happened, it's

807
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 5: hard for that to be real evidence of anything. So unfortunately,

808
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 5: even though it is Jeremy is left handed, I'm not

809
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 5: sure that that really can prove anything.

810
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, and as far as the case goes, I mean,

811
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 4: he's literally legally out of options. His last appeal had failed.

812
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 4: They appealed it to the Florida Supreme Court, which refused

813
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 4: to hear it, and so he's unless there's some discovery

814
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 4: of new evidence, which really seems kind of unlikely at

815
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 4: this point, because you have physical evidence linking Jeremy to

816
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 4: the scene, and you have multiple confessions, detailed confessions, I'm

817
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 4: not sure what else can arise. You know, I think

818
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,760
Speaker 4: the crime scene was gone over in such a sloppy manner.

819
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 4: There was evidence that was left behind that probably could

820
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 4: have linked Jeremy there as well. I'm thinking particularly this

821
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 4: box of cigarettes that was like right not far from

822
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 4: the bloodstains. Jeremy said he was smoking afterwards before he

823
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 4: moved the body.

824
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 3: We asked him what kind of cigarettes he smoked? Marlborough.

825
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 3: He would never have known that.

826
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 4: Granted it's a common brand, but there's only one pack

827
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 4: of cigarettes near those bloodstains, and the police photographed it

828
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 4: as if it was evidence, but apparently never collected it. Right,

829
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 4: And so there's a lot of evidence from the crime

830
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 4: scene that you know, Jeremy said, you know, he wrapped

831
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 4: her in in a plastic tarp and dragged her down there. Well,

832
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 4: if you look at the crime scene photos, you can

833
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 4: see several plastic tarps right there in the bushes, in

834
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 4: the garbage, and it.

835
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 3: Was never collected.

836
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 4: So I don't know, you know, you're ever gonna get

837
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 4: that again. And there's not like some video camera in

838
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 4: a tree back in nineteen eighty seven. So I don't

839
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 4: know where there's going to be any new evidence that's

840
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 4: going to be more significant than having your fingerprints and

841
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 4: multiple confessions linking you to the crime.

842
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, but just to clarify, Leo's really his only two

843
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 5: options are being released on parole or some clemency after

844
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 5: and of course with parole that's not the same as

845
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 5: an exoneration. So even if he is released on parole,

846
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 5: he will still be considered a guilty man.

847
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: And does he have a parole date.

848
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 5: I don't think there's a date so far, but there

849
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 5: should be a hearing some time around March.

850
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 4: Right, and you know that's going to be that's going

851
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 4: to be an interesting hearing. I'm curious if the state

852
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 4: is going to show up again because the last three

853
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 4: times that Leo has had parole, and you know, he's

854
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 4: he's served his minimum sentence of twenty five years. He's

855
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 4: a model inmate. He's started programs. He says to us,

856
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 4: you know, I had to invent programs to graduate from

857
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 4: in prison. He has like no disciplinary record.

858
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 3: He's just he's the model inmate.

859
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 5: Yah. Right, I think it's been like sixteen seventeen years

860
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 5: since he's been written up for any sort of disciplinary thing.

861
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's and all minors stuff that never happens in prison, right,

862
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 4: But his refusal to apologize and take responsibility for killing

863
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 4: Michelle is what's keeping him behind bars. And every time

864
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 4: he's up for parole, the parole commissioners seem ready to

865
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 4: release him, but then the state attorney or an assistant state

866
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 4: attorney shows up, throws out the autopsy pictures and says,

867
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 4: never apologize, never said I'm sorry, and the commissioners just

868
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 4: sort of flip and change their opinion and deny his parole,

869
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 4: and it's well, will this.

870
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:21,280
Speaker 1: Time be different?

871
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: Now that you know we have again Jeremy confessing on

872
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 2: tape to you guys, do you think this time could

873
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 2: be different?

874
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 3: I think that the.

875
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 4: Public awareness of Leo's case could be different. I think

876
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 4: there could be, you know, a media scene at his parole,

877
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 4: like expecting him to be paroled. I think I think

878
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 4: I know a lot of people in Florida who's told

879
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 4: me they want they plan on attending that, and I

880
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 4: wouldn't be surprised if there's a large crowd there to

881
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 4: see Leo get parole, but you.

882
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 3: Know, it remains to be seen.

883
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 4: Does the State Attorney's office want to continue to resist

884
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 4: this and to fight this and to sort of double

885
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 4: down on Leo? I think that will be a really

886
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 4: interesting question because that parole is coming up in you know,

887
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 4: just a few months.

888
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: Well, I was, I guess, you know, one of the

889
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 2: questions people keep asking is why is the state's attorney

890
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 2: office so adamant on keeping this person in prison when

891
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 2: we have someone confessing, we have the evidence, you know

892
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: everything you guys have said, what is going on?

893
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 4: You know, it's just I think it's just this culture

894
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 4: of protecting convictions and you know, this finality that's sort

895
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 4: of built into the system. There's political reasons for it.

896
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 4: They don't like to lose convictions sometimes. You know, in

897
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 4: this particular case, the assistant state attorney who prosecute is

898
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 4: no longer alive. He was also Jeremy's prosecutor, and so

899
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 4: it's complicated. You know, why is this guy going into

900
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 4: an office by himself, without a tape recorder and a

901
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 4: witness and interviewing Jeremy about this particular crime. It's just like,

902
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 4: I think it's completely unethical, and so I think They're

903
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 4: not only having to defend the conviction of Leo, but

904
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 4: now they have to defend their office because we're accusing

905
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 4: their office of of certain unethical behaviors. And so I

906
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,439
Speaker 4: think it's just sort of a way of doubling down.

907
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 4: Just Oh, it's just guys promoting a podcast. It's just

908
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 4: the you know, the media, don't listen to them. We

909
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 4: know what we're doing. They're completely opposed to conviction Integative

910
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 4: Review units in Polk County. You know, they told Kelsey

911
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 4: in an interview that, you know, we get it right,

912
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 4: you know, we don't need the Conviction Integative reviewunonit like

913
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 4: they do in Tampa and Jacksonville.

914
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: That is just so arrogant and just like anyone who

915
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 2: says that, it's like people who are like, I'm not racist,

916
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: they're probably racist.

917
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: If you need to announce you're not racist.

918
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: Like, we don't get it, we don't get it wrong,

919
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,399
Speaker 2: you probably are getting it wrong right.

920
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 4: And one of Teresa Hall, we interviewed from the Conviction

921
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 4: Integative Union in Hillsborough County, and she was like, you know,

922
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 4: if if a plane falls out of the sky, there's

923
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 4: going to be an investigation because we don't want that

924
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 4: to happen again. If a doctor, a surgeon loses a

925
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 4: patient on the table that shouldn't die, we want an investigation.

926
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 4: We want to make sure that that doesn't happen again.

927
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 4: With lawyers who are dealing with life and death issues

928
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 4: for some reason, lawyers who sue airlines and you know,

929
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 4: sue doctors and hospitals, but they don't want their own

930
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 4: work looked at. It doesn't make any sense. We know

931
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 4: that they get cases wrong. We have a very healthy

932
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 4: record of exonerations in this country of people who are

933
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 4: wrongly convicted and released from death row. So you are

934
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 4: getting it wrong. Why are you afraid of an investigation?

935
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: Well, and to be clear for listeners, it is particularly

936
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 2: designed that way by prosecutorial immunity qualified immunity. So just

937
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: so listeners know, this isn't a fluke. It is designed

938
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: so they cannot be held accountable, right, And that's.

939
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 4: To me is like the most disgusting part of this

940
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 4: thing is like, you know, we looked into the history

941
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 4: of the of the tenth State Attorney's Office, and you know,

942
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 4: we found some cases of the wrongful convictions, and we

943
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 4: found evidence that state attorneys were hiding exculpatory evidence from

944
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 4: the defense, and I just thought about that, like if

945
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 4: and these guys, by the way, they get their name

946
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 4: mentioned in a Florida Supreme Court opinion, they don't lose

947
00:45:58,840 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 4: their job.

948
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 3: They can continued to.

949
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 4: Prosecute after doing this, and you know, sending someone to

950
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 4: prison for the rest of their life wrongfully, there's no consequences.

951
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 4: I was thinking if I was to say, I'm writing

952
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 4: a book like Devil and the Grove and I find

953
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 4: a legal document where all the Groveland boys like confess

954
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 4: to their lawyers and said, we did this, you got

955
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 4: to get us off. And I said, well, that doesn't

956
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 4: fit my narrative.

957
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 3: I'm hiding that.

958
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 4: I'm going to put that in a box and never

959
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 4: see it and not have it affect my narrative. You know,

960
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 4: if I got caught doing that, my book would be

961
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 4: pulled from the shelves and I wouldn't get.

962
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 3: Another publishing contract.

963
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 4: Right, So I have more accountability than the State Attorney's

964
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 4: office does. And so this whole thing about the integrity

965
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 4: of the courts being more important than you know, the

966
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 4: court of public opinion, I don't buy it.

967
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, So obviously this podcast got a lot of people

968
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 2: riled up.

969
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: How can they help Leo?

970
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 5: Well, we do. We do have a petition out there.

971
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure it is on the Lava for Good website.

972
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 5: It is a change dot org petition that is was

973
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 5: put together by the Innocence Project of Florida, who represent Leo.

974
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 5: And so what you know, they're calling for, what we

975
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:13,240
Speaker 5: are supporting the call for is a transfer of Leo's

976
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 5: case to one of these districts that has a conviction

977
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 5: integrity review unit, because we think if somebody is able

978
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 5: to really take, you know, a look at the full case,

979
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 5: at all the evidence that, you know, everything that's come

980
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 5: forward over the years, they'll see exactly what we know,

981
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 5: which is that Leo is innocent and that Jeremy Scott

982
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 5: killed Michelle Schofield. And you know, we're hoping that some

983
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 5: sort of independent review can happen. And so the petition, signing,

984
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 5: the petition, getting more attention for that is kind of

985
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 5: what we're we're putting our energy towards right now. I

986
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 5: don't know what else, Gilbert, you you're a little more

987
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 5: tuned into this at this point.

988
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 4: No, I mean, right now, that seems to be the

989
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 4: thing the stage that we're working for is like, we're

990
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 4: just sort of supporting the Florida Innocence Project's efforts to

991
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 4: get this petition signed. I believe that there will be

992
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 4: other things that will come up as this sort of

993
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 4: aftermath of Bone Valley sort of develops. I think, you know,

994
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 4: it could be in any direction, but we're waiting. There's

995
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 4: a lot of people listening to this in Florida, and

996
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 4: a lot of people have reached out and said they

997
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 4: want to help and they want to do something about this.

998
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 4: And that was very much the feeling I had with

999
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 4: Devil and the Grove of when people started coming up

1000
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 4: to me saying we're going to do something about this,

1001
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,879
Speaker 4: and suddenly this political movement began, and sure enough, then

1002
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 4: it comes across the desk of the governor at the time,

1003
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 4: and that's when the pardon started.

1004
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 3: So hopefully enough people will.

1005
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 4: Listen and that kind of you know, grassroots effort will

1006
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 4: begin again.

1007
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 2: I don't know if this will surprise you guys, but

1008
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 2: a lot of people want to help Jeremy as well.

1009
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: They want to send him stamps. Will you be able

1010
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 2: to put out his mailing address so people can do that.

1011
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 4: You know, we're working on that right now there's Jeremy's

1012
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 4: in a different situation than Leo because he's in the

1013
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 4: solitary confinement and he's not allowed to nobody's allowed to

1014
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 4: receive stamps anymore. They cut that back at the at

1015
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,439
Speaker 4: the Department of Corrections in Florida, so all the mail

1016
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 4: has to go to this one clearing house in Tampa

1017
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 4: and then it gets delivered to the various prisons and

1018
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 4: Jeremy gets a copy of whatever letter you'd send. We're

1019
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 4: trying to figure out a way because I've had a

1020
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 4: lot of people contact me saying they want to put

1021
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 4: some money in his canteen. They heard about, you know,

1022
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 4: how broke he was and he couldn't buy soap, and

1023
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 4: they just wanted to reach out and help. And so

1024
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 4: we're trying to figure out a way to have maybe

1025
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 4: a middle person be the collector of this, and we

1026
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 4: just haven't been able to solve it yet, but we

1027
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 4: are working on it.

1028
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 2: So if people want to stay updated on you know,

1029
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: the petition, how to contact Jeremy, where do they go?

1030
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 5: So with the petition, if you signed the petition, you

1031
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 5: will receive updates if you know if there are any

1032
00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 5: updates posted to the petition, you will be notified that

1033
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 5: if you sign it, so that is also motivation to

1034
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 5: sign the petition so you can get those kind of updates.

1035
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 5: But we're also Gilbert and I are both on Twitter

1036
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:14,280
Speaker 5: and are updating with whenever stuff comes through. Also Lava

1037
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 5: for Good. If you follow Lava for Good on social media,

1038
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 5: they're definitely going to be posting any updates related to this.

1039
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 5: So yeah, just you know, be on the lookout for

1040
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 5: stuff on social media and with the petition.

1041
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 4: Hey, Maggie, I have a question for you. What are

1042
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 4: you working on right now? What do you have going on?

1043
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,240
Speaker 2: Well, we are working on season two of Wrongful Conviction

1044
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 2: with Me Maggie Freeling, and that is going to launch

1045
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 2: January ninth, and you can find that in the regular

1046
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction feed with me and Jason and.

1047
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: I'm very excited. This season is just some of the

1048
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 1: most egregious cases.

1049
00:50:52,920 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 2: We're really focusing on women, so everyone should listen and yeah,

1050
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 2: I can't wait.

1051
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 3: That's great.

1052
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: Gilbert Kelsey, thank you so much for talking with me.

1053
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening, Thank you for answering listeners questions,

1054
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 2: my questions.

1055
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: We really appreciate it.

1056
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 4: Oh, Maggie, thanks so much. It's such a pleasure to

1057
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 4: actually do an interview with.

1058
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 3: You and really talk to you.

1059
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: Well, you interviewed me last time, so this has been