Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing,
Speaker 1: the oldest known recording of the country's oldest orchestra, the
Speaker 1: New York Philharmonic. I'm no outside observer when it comes
Speaker 1: to the film. I'm on the board. I think it's
Speaker 1: central to the life of this city, and I believe
Speaker 1: that today's guest has positioned it better than ever for
Speaker 1: the challenging years ahead. When Alan Gilbert took over as
Speaker 1: conductor and music director in two thousand nine, he knew
Speaker 1: the line he had to walk. Be new enough to
Speaker 1: stay vital, traditional enough to stay solvent. A familiar Stravinsky
Speaker 1: tour to Force, for example, tends to sell many more
Speaker 1: tickets than a piece by a living composer. Frequent concert goers,
Speaker 1: after all, average sixty years old. Almost one third say
Speaker 1: they'd go less often if programs included more contemporary music.
Speaker 1: If anyone could thread that needle, it was Gilbert, the
Speaker 1: son of two former New York philm violinists. He'd literally
Speaker 1: grown up with the institution, but his heart beats to
Speaker 1: newer edgy or music that's legram macabre. Gilbert's first big
Speaker 1: project with the philm it was a hit, sold out
Speaker 1: the entire run huge reviews. He showed it was possible
Speaker 1: the Philharmonic can evolve and triumph, but some of his
Speaker 1: later modern programs met with smaller crowds and internal opposition.
Speaker 1: Last year, Gilbert announced he was phasing himself out of
Speaker 1: the job. Directing an ensemble as technically perfect as the
Speaker 1: philm poses at least one unexpected challenge. In a way,
Speaker 1: I would almost say that it's to keep them from
Speaker 1: being too professional to remember how how it feels to
Speaker 1: share the experience of playing music together, as if it
Speaker 1: were the first time. I remember the first time I
Speaker 1: played in an orchestra. It must have been dreadful. It
Speaker 1: was the Juilliard Pre College Orchestra and I was the
Speaker 1: last chair of second violinist. I just squeaked into the
Speaker 1: best orchestra in pre College, and we were reading Bram's
Speaker 1: Third Symphony for the first time. And it's one of
Speaker 1: the hardest pieces to play, and and it had to
Speaker 1: have sounded, you know, wretched at this first reading, but
Speaker 1: I was so thrilled. It was so exciting to hear
Speaker 1: the entire group playing the same piece, and I thought
Speaker 1: it was probably the greatest thing that it ever happened,
Speaker 1: as you know, in the history of orchestras, and that
Speaker 1: sense of enthusiasm and discovery and freshness is um is
Speaker 1: difficult to preserve. The schedule that the New York Philharmonic
Speaker 1: maintains is just ridiculous. Do you recommendly do less, absolutely
Speaker 1: less music, more time, more time off. It's kind of
Speaker 1: like being on a hamster wheel um that just keeps
Speaker 1: keeps going on and on. And I've said this many
Speaker 1: times and I really believe it. New York is the
Speaker 1: toughest music market in the world and has a constant
Speaker 1: parade of the greatest orchestras coming through and the next
Speaker 1: greatest orchestras coming through, all bringing their a game. People
Speaker 1: don't play in New York on tour unless they have
Speaker 1: prepared as well as they possibly can. They play in
Speaker 1: their programs, they try them in different venues. Finally they're
Speaker 1: ready for the big time in New York. They play
Speaker 1: in New York and they and they tried to knock
Speaker 1: it out of the park. The New York Philharmonic plays
Speaker 1: every week in New York normal for rehearsal, schedule, new
Speaker 1: program next week for rehearsals, new program. I guarantee you.
Speaker 1: If we gave the New York Philharmonic schedule book to
Speaker 1: any other orchestra in the world and say, okay, you
Speaker 1: play this, people's perceptions of the relative merits of orchestras
Speaker 1: would would shift. I mean, if you can achieve something
Speaker 1: incredibly artistic after a lot of hard, hard work, great
Speaker 1: more power to you. But the fact is that the
Speaker 1: New York Philharmonic is playing under a much more challenging circumstances.
Speaker 1: Why why is the Philharmonic so extensive? Why there are
Speaker 1: a lot of challenges that are just inherent in the
Speaker 1: in the situation that surrounds the New York Philharmonic. There's there, um,
Speaker 1: you know, their demands to generate revenue, to always have
Speaker 1: ticket sales, and they're fixed costs that are are being
Speaker 1: paid all the time, whether or not the orchestra play
Speaker 1: space of this space, and for the musicians themselves, and
Speaker 1: and and um it's I guess efficiency. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: not in the business office. Uh, you know, thankfully for
Speaker 1: you know, everyone involved. But um, but the fact is
Speaker 1: that people look at the schedule and say, oh, look
Speaker 1: at this law. We could do another concert here, So
Speaker 1: you know, let's see maybe this is the place we
Speaker 1: could do a benefit concert, or maybe if we have
Speaker 1: we have one rehearsal and one concert, what can we
Speaker 1: do with one rehearsal one concert? And the idea is to,
Speaker 1: you know, to use the orchestra to the extent possible
Speaker 1: allowed by the contract. And when that kind of thinking starts,
Speaker 1: to to forget to take over. But even creep in Um,
Speaker 1: the artistic health of the orchestra and the sort of
Speaker 1: call it esthetic integrity of the musicians is not the
Speaker 1: first These are not the first things that are being considered.
Speaker 1: The number of notes that they played. We did dust
Speaker 1: Rheingold Complete. I mean, that's just like ridiculous. It's two
Speaker 1: and a half hours of incredibly hard music. And then
Speaker 1: we did Moller's Seventh Symphony, which is like unbelievable, be difficult.
Speaker 1: And then we just jumped immediately into Um into the
Speaker 1: Parks program, which is also hard. Divorce a New World
Speaker 1: and symphonic dances from West Side Story sounds easy when
Speaker 1: the sourcier plays it. It's one of the hardest pieces
Speaker 1: to play. Gershwin in American in Paris, and we also
Speaker 1: had a concert up at St. John the Divine for
Speaker 1: Memorial Day mall or fourth Symphony thrown in. I mean
Speaker 1: it's it's it's yeah, it's hard now. Um obviously, um,
Speaker 1: everybody knows your story, first native New Yorker to lead
Speaker 1: the orchestra, and your family and your mom and dad
Speaker 1: being the orchestra, you being the little kid with the
Speaker 1: banning everybody's passports. Go ahead, No, no, no, it's just
Speaker 1: I've just fond memories when I when I think back,
Speaker 1: I knew everybody in the orkstra and you everybody's name,
Speaker 1: and uh, I remember sitting on the plane. Do you
Speaker 1: remember Mattel Electronics Football? That was like the first video game,
Speaker 1: and it was like these little red blips that didn't
Speaker 1: even move, but the next one would light up as
Speaker 1: the ball went and stuff. It was certain, by today's standards,
Speaker 1: unbelievably rudimentary, but I love that game, and so did
Speaker 1: Roland coll Off. He was the principal timpanist, so he
Speaker 1: we would play this game together and then later on
Speaker 1: it became the Rubik's Cube, and and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I would hang out with with the orchestra, and it's
Speaker 1: amazing to think that it's come to this. You started
Speaker 1: playing an instrument, you were how old. Um, I always
Speaker 1: had a violin Um from the time I was really
Speaker 1: really little. West or other people. Well, you know, we
Speaker 1: have a kind of violent, happy family. Um. My parents
Speaker 1: were both are both violinists, and my father's father was
Speaker 1: a violinist, and and his brother is a horn player,
Speaker 1: but he also studied the violin, and his sister as
Speaker 1: a pianist, but she also studied the violin. And my
Speaker 1: sister is a violinist. It's a bit let's not even
Speaker 1: get into it. It's you know, it's it's. It is
Speaker 1: what it is. But I did not want it. I mean,
Speaker 1: kids don't just take up an instrument for the most
Speaker 1: part when they're really little, unless their parents try to
Speaker 1: try to set up something. But it's it's. Um. I
Speaker 1: think it's cuts both ways. It's certainly helpful, and I
Speaker 1: think it's served me very well to have come from
Speaker 1: a musical family and to have been around the world
Speaker 1: that I actually inhabit full time now. But that was
Speaker 1: that was what I knew growing up. But if you
Speaker 1: are self motivated and have to do it on your own,
Speaker 1: that also can lead to a certain kind of strength.
Speaker 1: When did you understand that you were good, that you
Speaker 1: could really really play. How old we when someone said
Speaker 1: to you, you really good? You know. I went to
Speaker 1: Juilliard pre college. Certainly they were more dazzling violinists around,
Speaker 1: so I never thought I was one of the best.
Speaker 1: But I could play, and and I knew that, you know,
Speaker 1: if I wanted to, I could become a professional violinist.
Speaker 1: That was something that, yeah, I knew I was good
Speaker 1: enough to earn a living. And the one difference I've
Speaker 1: noticed more than anything with between people who come from
Speaker 1: musical families and people who come from families in which
Speaker 1: nobody is a musician is many of those people are
Speaker 1: told by their parents, Oh, it's a it's a risky profession.
Speaker 1: You know, you should go into something that's more secure,
Speaker 1: more where you know, income is more guaranteed, you know,
Speaker 1: don't you know They imagine the life of bohemian musician
Speaker 1: who's you know, scraping to get by just from day
Speaker 1: to day. I never once doubted that I could make
Speaker 1: a living, at least to get by as a musician,
Speaker 1: because I saw what my parents didn't. It just didn't
Speaker 1: occur to me that music wasn't a viable profession. If
Speaker 1: you see what I mean, to Fields. Well, I went
Speaker 1: to Fieldston, but Juilliard pre College was a Saturday weekend program. Um.
Speaker 1: So when you leave Fieldston, where do you go? I
Speaker 1: went to Harvard I um, um, not no, not, I
Speaker 1: just went for Harvard. I you know, I wanted to
Speaker 1: go and I thought it would be an exciting place
Speaker 1: to be. And it was because there there are a
Speaker 1: lot of very passionate people who were you know, whatever
Speaker 1: they're doing, they're doing it because they're really interested and
Speaker 1: in you. The conversations you would hear at the in
Speaker 1: the dining room were about anything, you know, ranging well,
Speaker 1: I was. I finally graduated as a music concentrator, but
Speaker 1: that was more convenience than than the fact that it
Speaker 1: was really what I wanted to study. At Harvard, I
Speaker 1: did get a good education in music theory and composition
Speaker 1: and history and things like that. Um, it's almost not
Speaker 1: at all performance at Harvard. Um. You know, people would
Speaker 1: joke with a certain degree of accuracy that at Harvard
Speaker 1: music was meant to be um seen and not heard.
Speaker 1: But I was also studying violent and we organized many concerts.
Speaker 1: But I was what I really was interested in was
Speaker 1: English and poetry, and I took as many courses in
Speaker 1: in in those subjects as I could. Finally, since I
Speaker 1: was just because of the distribution and because I was
Speaker 1: pretty lazy student, actually, it just made more sense to
Speaker 1: graduate as a as a music concentrator. Curtis exactly right.
Speaker 1: And all this time you're still performing, You're still playing
Speaker 1: the violin, and you have a sense at some point
Speaker 1: that you you said that, you know, although you knew
Speaker 1: you could make a living at him and get a
Speaker 1: seat at some ensemble around the world, that you knew
Speaker 1: you weren't the greatest wind does conducting enter the conversation?
Speaker 1: My dad is a good conductor, and um, you shouldn't
Speaker 1: get the idea that he was this kind of fierce,
Speaker 1: you know, tiger dad, you know, compelling me to pursue conducting,
Speaker 1: because it wasn't like that at all. But he did
Speaker 1: show me certain basics of conducting technique, the patterns of
Speaker 1: moving your arms for beating four and in three, and
Speaker 1: how to start beethoven Fifth Symphony, which is a challenging
Speaker 1: start because it starts with the rest. There's the first
Speaker 1: impulses of silence, you know, pop up up that there's
Speaker 1: a impulse. That's a tricky thing to conduct actually, even
Speaker 1: though it's you know, the iconic moment in music UM,
Speaker 1: so I had some sense of what conducting was about.
Speaker 1: And when I was in pre College, because I was
Speaker 1: the concertmaster in my senior year UM, there were rehearsals
Speaker 1: that uh, the conductor asked me to take over, so
Speaker 1: I did string sectionals conducting the orchestra. It was kind
Speaker 1: of lucky the way I first actually student. At the
Speaker 1: time I first stood in front of an orchestra, there
Speaker 1: was a guest conductor for one of the programs at
Speaker 1: the Pre College orchestra did and it was conducted by
Speaker 1: a guy by the name of Ronald Bronstein. And because
Speaker 1: of scheduling issues or for whatever reason, the next rehearsal
Speaker 1: after his concert, in other words, the first rehearsal of
Speaker 1: the next cycle for the next for the next program
Speaker 1: was going to be conducted by our regular conductor, Roger
Speaker 1: Nirenberg Um, but he couldn't get back for that one rehearsal.
Speaker 1: So Ronald Um, instead of starting to rehearse Rogers program,
Speaker 1: decided to give some of the students in the orchestra
Speaker 1: the chance to conduct. And it happened that my sister
Speaker 1: was walking down Broadway and ran into him and he
Speaker 1: told her what he was planning to She was all
Speaker 1: in the orchestra and um, she said, oh, I bet
Speaker 1: my brother would be interested in that. Just this is
Speaker 1: your Bernstein Carnegie Hall moment, well in a way, on
Speaker 1: an incredibly small scale, and uh, you know, I gave
Speaker 1: him a call and he said, yeah, okay, you're lucky.
Speaker 1: There's one more slot you can prepare the first moment
Speaker 1: of Divortox six Symphony. And I worked with my dad
Speaker 1: for two or three days and I had my moment
Speaker 1: in front of the orchestra and it was completely new
Speaker 1: and completely terrifying. And after that, you know, sometimes these
Speaker 1: first moments with with a new experience are so crucial
Speaker 1: and they really determine the direction that you end up going.
Speaker 1: Could either go, you know, one direction, or if it doesn't,
Speaker 1: if the experience is negative or difficult or scary in
Speaker 1: the wrong way, you end up completely giving up. But
Speaker 1: he said something to me after, and I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was hyperbole or just kind of he
Speaker 1: was throwing words around, and he said, you know, if
Speaker 1: I had my way, I'd kick out the entire class
Speaker 1: at Yard and I'd put you in the conducting class there.
Speaker 1: He said, you have talent, and I was like wow.
Speaker 1: So when I went to Harvard, then I had had
Speaker 1: this experience of of conducting, and almost right away when
Speaker 1: I got there, I auditioned to be assistant conductor of
Speaker 1: the Harvard Back of Orchestra, which I got. I think
Speaker 1: I was lucky. It was unusual for a freshman to
Speaker 1: get a position like that. But because of that, I
Speaker 1: actually got to conduct the orchestra and performance and do
Speaker 1: rehearsals and things, and using the videotape from one of
Speaker 1: those performances, I applied to Tanglewood for the summer conducting
Speaker 1: program at Tanglewood with Sachos and Gustav Meyer, and I
Speaker 1: got in, and uh so I was able to start
Speaker 1: studying there. The big crossroads for me came when I
Speaker 1: was getting ready to graduate from college and I was
Speaker 1: planning to go to a conservatory, and I had to
Speaker 1: really decide while I go as a violence or as
Speaker 1: a conductor um And I decided to apply as a
Speaker 1: conductor because I figured sort of what I already had thought.
Speaker 1: I you know, I'm a decent violinist. I could I
Speaker 1: could make a living as a violinist, even if I
Speaker 1: don't go study at a conservatory. Now, um, let's just
Speaker 1: see how how the conducting thing goes. So I ended
Speaker 1: up getting into Curtis and I went to Curtis for
Speaker 1: three years, and then I continued with the same teacher
Speaker 1: otto Vene Mueller at Juilliard. I got my master's degree. Um,
Speaker 1: so Curtis and then Juilliard after that. Yeah, I can't
Speaker 1: complain about my education, and I have no academic stone unturned. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was conducting during those two periods as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Curtis and and drew itard. Although I did study violin,
Speaker 1: it was it was wonderful. I got to a new
Speaker 1: steer sharply in the direction of conducting. And I was
Speaker 1: Curtis and Juilliard. I was a conducting conducting student. But
Speaker 1: while I was at Curtis, I studied violin with Yosha Brodsky,
Speaker 1: one of the great violent teachers who was there at
Speaker 1: the time. And I also um auditioned to be on
Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Orchestra substitute musician lists. And just because of
Speaker 1: the way things were the those years, there were a
Speaker 1: lot of openings. I think a couple of people were
Speaker 1: on sick leave. There were people out on maternity leave
Speaker 1: or whatever. And I played basically full time in the
Speaker 1: Philadelphia Orchestra while I was studying at Curtis as a violinist,
Speaker 1: you know, for me, as a non pro if you will,
Speaker 1: but a devoted fan of that music, someone will play
Speaker 1: the fourth movement of the mallor ninth almost three minutes
Speaker 1: longer than someone. I mean, some people just squeeze the
Speaker 1: hell out of the adagios and so forth. In my mind,
Speaker 1: what a conductor does only only based it on that,
Speaker 1: on that information and those numbers, on those downloads that
Speaker 1: you decide the pace that it's played, Is that correct? You?
Speaker 1: You play it your way. I think that tempo is
Speaker 1: the single most important attribute or characteristic of an interpreterpretation.
Speaker 1: Early on, there was no separate profession of conductor. Very
Speaker 1: often the composer would lead the performance, or maybe the
Speaker 1: first violinist. The concertmaster would guide things along, but essentially,
Speaker 1: if a pulse was kept, people could play along. Jean
Speaker 1: Baptiste Lulli, the French composer, actually famously killed himself, supposedly,
Speaker 1: so the story goes, because what they did is not
Speaker 1: wave a stick in the air, but actually he beat
Speaker 1: a beat his staff on the floor and apparently he
Speaker 1: missed and impaled his foot with the staff and he
Speaker 1: contracted and he ended up. Yes, so it's a hazardous
Speaker 1: profession even today. But back then I guess it could
Speaker 1: have been worse. But as music got more complicated, it
Speaker 1: became more useful and maybe even necessary for there to
Speaker 1: be an outside person who was not playing an instrument,
Speaker 1: could listen, who could listen and guide everybody. And the
Speaker 1: idea of a modern conductor with that kind of mythical status,
Speaker 1: this kind of mystical presence, who would shape the music
Speaker 1: and come up with an interpretation. Um, you know, when
Speaker 1: it was the composer himself in the idea was to
Speaker 1: present the piece. But then when when you know, Mendelssohn
Speaker 1: started performing the music of Bach, and when list started
Speaker 1: doing other composers music, the idea was to come up
Speaker 1: with a personal take, and and it became a thing. Um.
Speaker 1: And now obviously with some very complicated music, tricky meters
Speaker 1: and stuff, the idea of you know, just giving people
Speaker 1: an indication of where the is, for example, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's that would be really really hard for an orchestra
Speaker 1: to do. If not impossible without a conductor, and it
Speaker 1: becomes an esthetic even philosophical question, what an interpretation is? Um?
Speaker 1: I try to find the right tempo at every moment,
Speaker 1: right tempo? What is the right tempo? You're you know,
Speaker 1: you're pointing out that there are many different ways you
Speaker 1: can do it, but something it's different for different people.
Speaker 1: It's different for different situations. Since there's a better way
Speaker 1: to play it, well, you have to find the tempo
Speaker 1: that's absolutely right for you, that is completely organic for
Speaker 1: your relationship with the piece. And that's what I do
Speaker 1: when I study. I'm trying to digest the music to
Speaker 1: the point where if I open the score randomly to
Speaker 1: any page, I get an immediate and visceral kind of
Speaker 1: reaction to the notes I see on the page, and
Speaker 1: I have the sense that this is how they have
Speaker 1: to go. And then you have to sell it to them,
Speaker 1: and then well what happens is it's interesting when you
Speaker 1: know a piece that well, as you're conducting it, you
Speaker 1: don't have to consciously do anything. It comes out that way.
Speaker 1: The gesture takes care of itself. Yeah, and that's what
Speaker 1: you were or in rehearsal. Do they ever say to
Speaker 1: you we would, I would like to play it another way.
Speaker 1: They don't do that. Sure, they do that absolutely, especially
Speaker 1: if there's a solo. And that's what makes it fun
Speaker 1: because the chemistry and the kind of give and take
Speaker 1: of you know, it's like a it's like a vessel
Speaker 1: with with two two chambers, and the kind of the
Speaker 1: fluid can kind of shift back and forth. And the
Speaker 1: idea is sometimes you give you give over a little
Speaker 1: bit of the lead to the soloist who's playing a solo,
Speaker 1: and you react to it. But it's all together, and
Speaker 1: that solos will feel differently about the solo, even if
Speaker 1: they have their own interpretation, if you will, based on
Speaker 1: your presence and your physicality. And so it's if you see,
Speaker 1: you know, great jazz combo playing like we just had
Speaker 1: Winton the other day and was so interesting to watch
Speaker 1: them play together because you can tell that even though
Speaker 1: they're improvising, they're completely affecting each other. And when one
Speaker 1: person does something, they react to it and they emphasize
Speaker 1: a certain impulse or you know, clicking the beat, and
Speaker 1: then that intern inspires the one who made the first move,
Speaker 1: and it's this constant feedback loop that also happens with
Speaker 1: music that's written down. I've done the same piece with
Speaker 1: two different orchestras in consecutive weeks, and although my interpretation
Speaker 1: hasn't dramatically changed, the way the piece ends up coming
Speaker 1: out is very different. Is everybody doing the exact same thing,
Speaker 1: but in their own way. Some of them seem to
Speaker 1: be ahead of the beat and some of them need
Speaker 1: to be on the beat. Yeah, that's a very that's
Speaker 1: a very interesting observation because it's it's absolutely true with
Speaker 1: some conductors orchestras will tend to make a sound that's
Speaker 1: closer to where it seems as if the it's called
Speaker 1: the ixtus of their beat. That's sort of the click
Speaker 1: where the beat actually happens. There's there's either greater or
Speaker 1: lesser delay from that. It depends on the the quality
Speaker 1: of the gesture. And it's very hard to describe why
Speaker 1: that works and how that works. It's also according to
Speaker 1: the orchestra, certain orchestras play closer to the beat than
Speaker 1: than than others. Like the Cleveland Orchestra, for example, tends
Speaker 1: to play closer to the visual you know, where the
Speaker 1: beat looks as if it is than the New York Philharmonic.
Speaker 1: A lot of European or German rictors just play even
Speaker 1: more behind the beat. And this is where it gets
Speaker 1: interesting because it's about tempo, it's about rhythm. It's also
Speaker 1: about sound quality. If you imagine a sound that goes
Speaker 1: that's like right there, there's no delay, yeah, or if
Speaker 1: it's that you know that there's a kind of delay
Speaker 1: and it can't it can't possibly start edit such a
Speaker 1: determinate time. Um. I remember when I first played in
Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Orchestra. I was early. I came in my
Speaker 1: I made a sound before the other musicians because there
Speaker 1: is more delay there. So I would see Ricardo Boud
Speaker 1: you give a gesture and you go boom, and I'll
Speaker 1: go boom right there, and everyone else would wait and
Speaker 1: the sound would would come out later and uh, after
Speaker 1: a while, I didn't have to make that that calculation
Speaker 1: and that adjustment. And it's different from the New York
Speaker 1: Film Institutional. Yeah, it's not a conscious thing. It's not
Speaker 1: that it's not like they talk about it. But it's
Speaker 1: the culture of sound. It's the tradition of of the
Speaker 1: way they they collectively create rhythm and sound. I remember
Speaker 1: seeing Herbert from Cary on conduct the Vienna Philharmonic, and
Speaker 1: it was und I've never seen anything like this. How
Speaker 1: far ahead of the sound his beat was. It looked
Speaker 1: like he was almost in the next measure they were playing.
Speaker 1: They were playing schubert Unfinished Symphony. He was beating along,
Speaker 1: and I swear I couldn't see any connection between Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was like, you know, he was already on the
Speaker 1: plane and they were still getting to the airport or something.
Speaker 1: It was so bizarre, but they played so beautifully. So
Speaker 1: an orchestra that has a kind of more precise way
Speaker 1: of making sound will tend not to play so far
Speaker 1: behind the beat. Generally speaking, orchestras and France, which were
Speaker 1: very precise in the way they approach with them and
Speaker 1: maybe not quite as as voluptuous in the sound quality
Speaker 1: that they make essay for example, a German orchestra, they
Speaker 1: tend to play closer to the beat. And then when
Speaker 1: I first conducted the Philadelphia Orchestra, the first beats I
Speaker 1: conducted with the Philadelphia Orchestra, the sound came so much
Speaker 1: later than I expected. I almost fell off the stage
Speaker 1: because it was such a shock. I gave a beat
Speaker 1: and they didn't play. And then what seemed like an eternity.
Speaker 1: Later the sound came back to me perfectly together. It
Speaker 1: was really bizarre. When you do this kind of work,
Speaker 1: you have to have this keen, almost mathematical aptitude just
Speaker 1: to fit all these scrabble tiles in your skull every
Speaker 1: day of all these notes. And when you talked about entrances,
Speaker 1: you know, I think to myself, what if there's more
Speaker 1: than one entrance, or what are the entrances all fall
Speaker 1: on top of each other? Who gets picked? You know,
Speaker 1: they make their entrances whether you give them a or not,
Speaker 1: because you know they know where they are and they're
Speaker 1: counting you being an entrance for it's from multiple they
Speaker 1: know it's for all of it. It's not it's not
Speaker 1: to make sure that they play. It's to help them
Speaker 1: enter in the way that you want them to and
Speaker 1: with the spirit and with the character that you want.
Speaker 1: But they don't. You don't need to look at them
Speaker 1: to play, and there's no way you don't always even
Speaker 1: even certain entrances from one concert to the next, you'll
Speaker 1: either give you'll give them a look or not. Um
Speaker 1: it's very comforting if a player is counting a lot
Speaker 1: of rest to get your eye, a couple of measures
Speaker 1: before and then confirmation that it's time for them to
Speaker 1: play at at A at A at the correct moment.
Speaker 1: Outgoing New York Philharmonic conductor Alan Gilbert, this is not
Speaker 1: like Baldwin and you're listening to. Here's the thing, one
Speaker 1: of the living composers who's work Gilbert brought to New
Speaker 1: York audiences is that's a peck of Solmonon. The concert
Speaker 1: this spring where Gilbert conducted solon In's l A Variations
Speaker 1: is just one example of his difficult balancing act. Slonon
Speaker 1: is a great conductor in his own right too, currently
Speaker 1: at the Philharmonia or Orchestra in London. But on here's
Speaker 1: the thing. He told me he's frustrated that there's so
Speaker 1: much more attention paid to conductors than two composers. I
Speaker 1: had a really kind of illuminating experience in l A
Speaker 1: some years ago. I was I was at Starbucks, actually
Speaker 1: queuing from a coffee, and there was a guy in
Speaker 1: front of me who asked whether I was so and so,
Speaker 1: and I said, yes, I am, and he said he
Speaker 1: was also a composer. And he told me that he
Speaker 1: had written a couple of songs from Madonna and you know,
Speaker 1: these huge names and his name doesn't appear anywhere, and
Speaker 1: I thought, so, it's not only a classical music book
Speaker 1: on here more stories from my talk with that's a
Speaker 1: peka salon and had here's the thing dot Org. A
Speaker 1: few years ago, I collaborated with Alan Gilbert on a
Speaker 1: program where the Philharmonic performed famous film scores live to picture.
Speaker 1: It was exhilarating from me, but I worried it would
Speaker 1: feel like just another concert for Gilbert. I needn't have.
Speaker 1: I had never done that, and that was that was
Speaker 1: so great. We were terrified to pitch that to you.
Speaker 1: By the way, well, I'm happy with the ones I
Speaker 1: chose to do. I mean, certainly the two. And then
Speaker 1: I mean, there's such great films, first of all, and
Speaker 1: the way music is used is so integral to the
Speaker 1: whole artistic product. Two thousand mom was great. It was,
Speaker 1: I mean, and it was one of the hardest things
Speaker 1: that I've ever done, because essentially you have to coordinate
Speaker 1: because Kubrick was such a genius. I mean, it was
Speaker 1: no accident when certain moments in the film visually happened
Speaker 1: in relation to the music. You know, when the spaceship
Speaker 1: shows up, you know, the boom, something has to happen there,
Speaker 1: and if you're not, if you don't hit that that
Speaker 1: mark mark exactly right, you you know, you're taking away
Speaker 1: from the from the impact and the value of the film.
Speaker 1: So I really worked very hard. And whoever had prepared
Speaker 1: the score, maybe it worked for them, but they were
Speaker 1: there were time marks all through the score, but they
Speaker 1: weren't right actually, So I literally spent act going through
Speaker 1: and figuring out how how to mark my score, and
Speaker 1: I tried to the best of my ability. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm no professional in the world of cinema, but I
Speaker 1: tried to really identify which moments were crucial and which
Speaker 1: moments there was some play because you know, if if
Speaker 1: you know, if you have one moment where I say,
Speaker 1: you know, horn starts to play and that's where you know,
Speaker 1: the sun shows up or whatever, and the uh in
Speaker 1: in in the movie, Okay, you know you have to
Speaker 1: hit that. But then there may be you know, twenty
Speaker 1: seconds in which is not so crucial. And that made
Speaker 1: it possible to figure out how to paste those say
Speaker 1: twenty seconds in order to end up at the right
Speaker 1: place without it feeling too metronomic. It's difficult. You want
Speaker 1: it to sound natural and you want it to sound
Speaker 1: as if it's your own interpretation. Um, but it also
Speaker 1: has to fit with the film. And what I had
Speaker 1: to practice during the rehearsals was how to either make
Speaker 1: up time or give time back, because, um, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes you're ahead, you know there are time marks, and
Speaker 1: you say, okay, I'm a little bit ahead, and the
Speaker 1: ones where it doesn't matter, then you know you have
Speaker 1: to slow it down. You can't just suddenly slow it down,
Speaker 1: because then it will sound like a discontinuity in the music.
Speaker 1: You have to know, Okay, if I slow down this much,
Speaker 1: then I'll and by the time, you know, five measures later,
Speaker 1: then we'll be able to hit hit the next mark.
Speaker 1: And that sort of interaction is completely different from what
Speaker 1: we do usually. Because you know, something slows down a
Speaker 1: little bit in the concert, that's okay, that's what happened,
Speaker 1: and you don't have to try to make it up.
Speaker 1: You know, you're not trying to end the piece in
Speaker 1: the exact same amount of time that you did it
Speaker 1: the night before. If it's a little slower the next night,
Speaker 1: no big deal. But that doesn't work with the movie
Speaker 1: You Can't End. Two minutes later in the movie right
Speaker 1: hit four of the big five orchestras in my development,
Speaker 1: I was really really lucky to see how these all
Speaker 1: wonderful orchestras were worked so differently from each other. And
Speaker 1: then your first major appointment is in Sweden. Was in Sweden,
Speaker 1: I started working as a guest conductor um and uh
Speaker 1: Stockholm Royal Stockholm Filharmonic was looking for a chief conductor
Speaker 1: and I didn't even know it at the time, and
Speaker 1: I conducted the orchanal. They invited me back for a
Speaker 1: essentially a tryout week because I hadn't worked with There
Speaker 1: were a lot of regular musicians who didn't play my concert.
Speaker 1: It was a summer concert, so people were on leave,
Speaker 1: and so they brought me back as soon as possible,
Speaker 1: which was earlier the next season, and I did a
Speaker 1: huge program. We did a done Juan of Strauss and Mozart,
Speaker 1: Obo Control and the writer Spring in fact, and uh,
Speaker 1: I guess that went well enough that they asked me
Speaker 1: to be their chief conductor. So I took out a
Speaker 1: position there and I was there for eight years and
Speaker 1: uh yeah, then landed in New York. Who contacts who
Speaker 1: says to you, we'd like to talk to you. Um.
Speaker 1: There were conversations kind of um before I was invited
Speaker 1: to be music director about a completely different setup that
Speaker 1: was being imagined, involving another conductor who would have been
Speaker 1: the music director and and what what I would have
Speaker 1: been as some kind of principal conductor or some other
Speaker 1: lesser title. But the idea was that there would be
Speaker 1: two of us, and and I would have conducted a
Speaker 1: lot of Was that a conductor that they talked about,
Speaker 1: somebody who liked it, admired and you would comolutely know
Speaker 1: we we we And it was It was a very
Speaker 1: exciting opportunity for me because I wasn't angling to become
Speaker 1: music director of the your flow. What happened, Um, well,
Speaker 1: that fell apart. They couldn't afford that person. No, just
Speaker 1: let's leave it at it fell apart, um, And so
Speaker 1: then you know, I guess they went back to the
Speaker 1: drawing board. And sometime later they you know, they called
Speaker 1: zarn Mate called me up and who made that? It
Speaker 1: was a czarin who drove that? Who drove that? You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know the internal workings, They don't know one
Speaker 1: about it to tell you, well, I mean, did you
Speaker 1: want to know. Essentially, the way it works is that
Speaker 1: a lot of people get together and there's a search
Speaker 1: committee that's made up of musicians and board members and
Speaker 1: administrators and sometimes some outside people. Um. I don't actually
Speaker 1: know exactly who was on the search committee that ended
Speaker 1: up choosing me, but obviously there was a critical mass
Speaker 1: of consensus that was your champion. Yeah, apparently, which I
Speaker 1: will always always appreciate and I'll never forget the the
Speaker 1: phone call. And this is an absolutely true story. I
Speaker 1: was traveling in Japan with my family and I had
Speaker 1: at the time two young children. Um, it was eight
Speaker 1: years ago, so Estro was three. I think it was
Speaker 1: nine years ago, so he was even two, and knowing
Speaker 1: it was three year or something like that, and they
Speaker 1: had finally fallen asleep. We had had a torturous night,
Speaker 1: you know how it is with jet lag, just you know,
Speaker 1: for for us, but for little kids it's impossible. And
Speaker 1: they had finally fallen asleep, and I got a call
Speaker 1: from Zarin Maytown just after they had fallen asleep, and
Speaker 1: he said, well, Alan, i'd you know, like to invite
Speaker 1: you to be our next music director. And I said,
Speaker 1: that's great, Sar but my kids just fell asleep. I
Speaker 1: can't talk to you now, and thought it was it
Speaker 1: was my mind, but my wife and I were so
Speaker 1: happy that they had fallen asleep, and and so I
Speaker 1: just you kno, hang up, and I said, guess what.
Speaker 1: They just asked me to be music director. And we
Speaker 1: were like trying to contain ourselves. But yeah. Then I
Speaker 1: called him back and we had a scene in a
Speaker 1: movie where guys like, more than being the music director
Speaker 1: of the Philharmonic, I want my kids to go to sleep. Totally. Well,
Speaker 1: we all know the madness of that moment of that.
Speaker 1: How did you feel? You know, I had a sense
Speaker 1: that it was it was in the air, but I
Speaker 1: absolutely didn't expect it, and you can't. You can hope
Speaker 1: for something like that, but you you know, it's ridiculous
Speaker 1: to expect it. Um. I was thrilled because obviously it's
Speaker 1: a great orchestra and it's my hometown orchestra. And to
Speaker 1: be able to work with them on a regulation home
Speaker 1: as well, because both your parents. So when you arrive
Speaker 1: and you begin, whether you had any preconceptions or not,
Speaker 1: what reality sinks in once you have the job, you
Speaker 1: get the job, and you come and then what I
Speaker 1: have to say, I was pretty prepared, um because of
Speaker 1: my very close connection and knowledge of the orchestra over
Speaker 1: the years, and I pretty well, I mean I'm not
Speaker 1: just patting myself on the back about this, but I
Speaker 1: I called it pretty well what the trajectory of my
Speaker 1: time at the Philharmonic would would be. I did to
Speaker 1: to Kisa eight years when when we started, it's turned
Speaker 1: out to be exactly eight years um. And I knew
Speaker 1: that there would be ups and downs and and some
Speaker 1: some more challenging periods. Um. What was what was nice
Speaker 1: and and surprising in a good way was that some
Speaker 1: of the kind of call it out of the box
Speaker 1: initiatives that I started, we're really accepted by the orchestra
Speaker 1: and by the community around the orchestra, things like the
Speaker 1: Contact series and the the production of Grahama Cora that
Speaker 1: we did in my first season. I mean that was
Speaker 1: completely news. It was like nothing the orchestra had had
Speaker 1: done or tried trying before. And that was really important
Speaker 1: for me to have a success with those things early on,
Speaker 1: because that gave me, that bought me time, that gave
Speaker 1: me cred um, and it made it possible to continue
Speaker 1: to try to do other things, not for people who
Speaker 1: don't understand this completely. What the orchestra plays. There's a
Speaker 1: committee that this, it's that, or you decided both. At
Speaker 1: the end of the day. You could sort of simplify
Speaker 1: the the equation and say that I decide. Theoretically, as
Speaker 1: music director, I have the power to decide everything. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't think that would be a good way to
Speaker 1: go about it for a lot of reasons. It's too
Speaker 1: difficult to take, take too much time. Uh, it's too
Speaker 1: complicated because so many pieces have to fall into place.
Speaker 1: If you have guests and artists involved, and you almost
Speaker 1: always do, they have to be engaged. The contract has
Speaker 1: to be written, the schedule has to be organized. Guest
Speaker 1: factor and what they want to play absolutely guest conductors.
Speaker 1: So when Yo Yo or somebody like that comes here,
Speaker 1: you don't say to them you're gonna play this. They
Speaker 1: tell you what they like to play. Well, it's not
Speaker 1: that simple. I mean, it's a conversation with someone like
Speaker 1: yo Yo, who's a good friend of mine. We'll talk
Speaker 1: about it and and I'll say, hey, would you think
Speaker 1: about you know, playing this piece? And He'll say, either, yes,
Speaker 1: for sure, I'd love to do that, or I'm not
Speaker 1: so interested in doing that, you know, would you consider this?
Speaker 1: Or it's a give and take. Um, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, you want people to be happy about
Speaker 1: what they're doing here. Different music directors function in different ways, though,
Speaker 1: I've guess conducted at certain orchestras where the music director
Speaker 1: will say, hey, do whatever you want, and so I'll
Speaker 1: suggest a program and if it works with their season,
Speaker 1: and if it's a piece that they haven't played too recently,
Speaker 1: they'll accept it. Other music directors will say, no, guest
Speaker 1: conductor can do broms. I'm the only conductor who will
Speaker 1: do broms with the orchestra, for example, or all the
Speaker 1: Maller symphonies are just saved for me. And that's not
Speaker 1: it's not you that I've never operated that way. I
Speaker 1: think it's good for for the orchestra to experience music. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, similar music with different points of view. But
Speaker 1: just as I, just as I don't favor or classical repertoire,
Speaker 1: equally I'm assuming you don't either. And is there a
Speaker 1: point where you're scripting and you're writing the program for
Speaker 1: the year that you sit there and say, man, I'm
Speaker 1: not really to feel that great about this, but something
Speaker 1: we should play. Absolutely, you're in the fortunate position as
Speaker 1: music director that you don't have to do anything you
Speaker 1: don't want to do. But but the way I've tried
Speaker 1: to program is to combine things in meaningful ways, to
Speaker 1: create fresh contexts for pieces to shine with the greatest
Speaker 1: possible residence. And I happen to believe that UM showing connections,
Speaker 1: for example, between Beethoven and music that was written centuries later,
Speaker 1: can be illuminating. Another thing that I noticed, you know
Speaker 1: as a as a as a concert goer, is that
Speaker 1: there's times that the maestro yourself included obviously, is on
Speaker 1: the podium with no sheet music. And do do you
Speaker 1: conduct with no score because you just know it so well?
Speaker 1: Is that what the difference? Yeah, I mean there's there's
Speaker 1: a lot of music that I can do without the score,
Speaker 1: and I in a way I would have to say
Speaker 1: I prefer to do music without the score. UM, but
Speaker 1: I don't feel compelled to do music without the score.
Speaker 1: There's there's some conductors who, maybe just because I can,
Speaker 1: or maybe because I think it's important, UM, insist on
Speaker 1: doing everything without the score. It shouldn't matter just because
Speaker 1: you have the score there doesn't mean that you don't
Speaker 1: have to know it as well, but you have to
Speaker 1: know it in a different way. If you're going to
Speaker 1: conduct without the scores, you have to make sure you're
Speaker 1: not going to make mistakes and you really remember what's
Speaker 1: what's going on. Um. I'm lucky I'm able to learn
Speaker 1: pieces easily and conduct without the score. But I do
Speaker 1: so much music. Sometimes it's just more comfortable to have
Speaker 1: the music there. Now I'll be there and I'll watch
Speaker 1: this music performed by whoever is conducting, whoever the ensembles,
Speaker 1: and it means that sometimes it crushes me, just overwhelms me.
Speaker 1: Does that happen to you? Do you ever perform music?
Speaker 1: And not that you have that kind of um plainly
Speaker 1: visible reaction, but just sometimes does it just overwhelm you? Absolutely? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean there are times when I really, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of um conducting Divorce, our New
Speaker 1: World Symphony, which we've all done how many good scenes
Speaker 1: sometimes and it's just such a fantastic piece. It's just
Speaker 1: so exciting and so natural and heartfelt and beautiful and
Speaker 1: so well written for the orchestraener saying, damn, this is
Speaker 1: unbelievable that we get to do this. And then we
Speaker 1: did the symphonic dances from West Side Story by Bernstein,
Speaker 1: one of the greatest composition of the twentieth century, you know,
Speaker 1: and then in American Parents, as I said, these are
Speaker 1: three pieces that were premiered by the New York Philharmonic.
Speaker 1: How cool is that? I mean, how what Orkstra can
Speaker 1: say that? It's just, you know, three iconic works, all
Speaker 1: brought to life by the New York Philharmonic, And here
Speaker 1: I am conducting the New York Philharmonic in those very
Speaker 1: three pieces. Now, music directors most nights of the year,
Speaker 1: it's very difficult to him this, this this last stretch
Speaker 1: leading up to you know, these last concerts that I'm
Speaker 1: doing in New York City have been crazy. They've been tributes,
Speaker 1: and I've been out just about every single night. And
Speaker 1: you know, my kids understand what's going on. But you know,
Speaker 1: they say, very recently they said, you know, when are
Speaker 1: you not going to be going out? You know, are
Speaker 1: you going out again? And it's not only the nights,
Speaker 1: it's just everything else. There's so many things that go
Speaker 1: along with the responsibilities of being a music director. Meetings, planning, things,
Speaker 1: and and just like unlike least stuff, you know, decide
Speaker 1: you know, writing a letter to this person or or
Speaker 1: or thanking this donor. I'm all really worthwhile things that
Speaker 1: obviously have to be done. Um. But with American Orchestra,
Speaker 1: the music director, Frankly has so much power that there's
Speaker 1: certain things that won't happen unless I weigh in on them.
Speaker 1: So it really gums up the works if I don't
Speaker 1: if I don't act on things. So there's a kind
Speaker 1: of constant drip of just little things that have to
Speaker 1: be taken care of. And I'm really not going to
Speaker 1: miss that. Um and then I'll but I'll be around.
Speaker 1: I'm connecting the Juilliard Orchestra in a concert and sometime
Speaker 1: maybe January, and I'll be here just about every month, uh,
Speaker 1: teaching at Juilliard for a few days at a time.
Speaker 1: And uh, I mean I'm a New York, New Yorker
Speaker 1: at Hart and stuff, you know. I actually I am
Speaker 1: not happy about about the move. Nora's Kaisa. Kaisa has
Speaker 1: become more a New Yorker than I think I am. Actually,
Speaker 1: she's she's really taken to the city and loves it,
Speaker 1: and I think she'll miss it, maybe even more than
Speaker 1: she realizes. People have written some very very kind things
Speaker 1: about you and your revolution in this job. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: had the smart one with the brilliant critics. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: only ones with with with dealing with women, and and
Speaker 1: they and all of them used the same kind of
Speaker 1: hot buns, grand macab and things you tried that they
Speaker 1: thought were very admiring of and your devotion to new music.
Speaker 1: And they said some very very kind things about you.
Speaker 1: And when you leave here, what's your feeling like if
Speaker 1: you had just in a in a in a paragraph
Speaker 1: you look back on it and it was what to you?
Speaker 1: I think the orchestra is playing better than every I
Speaker 1: think they sound incredible. I think I can take some
Speaker 1: credit for that. And there's a kind of kind of
Speaker 1: attitude about the shared experience that the musicians have really
Speaker 1: cooperating and supporting each other and helping each other to
Speaker 1: sound as good as possible. A spirit of collegiality and
Speaker 1: mutual support that is fresh. I didn't I don't think
Speaker 1: it was as strong before um and the willingness of
Speaker 1: the musicians to take risks and go outside of the
Speaker 1: usual box of what is asked of musicians has been
Speaker 1: incredible and really gratifying. I mean, the things that we've
Speaker 1: been doing that they do without batting an eye now
Speaker 1: would have been unthinkable. And not that that what was
Speaker 1: before was was bad or not, you know, or anemic
Speaker 1: in any way. You left the institution in better shape
Speaker 1: artistically than when you found. It means a lot to
Speaker 1: hear you say that, Alec. I think what all arts organizations,
Speaker 1: orchestras for sure, but not just orchestras, need to do
Speaker 1: is to really think hard about what their purpose is
Speaker 1: and what we're trying to accomplish and what we stand for.
Speaker 1: And if you really believe strongly enough, then then you
Speaker 1: should find the courage to make it happen and take
Speaker 1: whatever risks are necessary because it is. It is about art,
Speaker 1: and it is about the human condition. And these are
Speaker 1: very lofty things to say, but really that's why we
Speaker 1: do it. Alan Gilbert, the New York Philharmonic's groundbreaking former
Speaker 1: music director, I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to here's
Speaker 1: the thing