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Speaker 1: Hi, it's Jorge and Daniel here. And this holiday season,

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Speaker 1: if you're looking for a gift for yourself, for a friend,

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Speaker 1: or for your your family, why not get him the

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Speaker 1: Gift of Answers about the Universe. To check out our

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Speaker 1: new book Frequently Asked Questions about the Universe, you can

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Speaker 1: find details at Universe f a Q dot com. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for supporting the podcast. Happy holidays everyone, Hey or hey?

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Speaker 1: Do you think that our universe is well suited to us?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, some of it seems so

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Speaker 1: staggeringly beautiful to our eyes, you know, like stars, the galaxies,

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Speaker 1: even like the drama of the black holes. That's true,

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Speaker 1: it's definitely something we can appreciate, but also sometimes seems

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Speaker 1: like the universe is kind of alien to us. I

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Speaker 1: think the universe is here first, so technically we are

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Speaker 1: the eighteen Yeah, but you know, sometimes the way that

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Speaker 1: it works is so bizarre and so strange that I

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Speaker 1: wonder if we're ever going to understand it, if our

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Speaker 1: minds are suited to it, maybe that's what makes it

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Speaker 1: especially suited to us. What do you mean? You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like the perfect puzzle to keep us entertained. For

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Speaker 1: attorney it's like that toy you put in front of

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Speaker 1: a toddler. Why you need to get some work done.

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Speaker 1: It's like the TV for human toddlers. Maybe Steve Jobs

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Speaker 1: created the universe. Hi, I'm poor Hammad, cartoonists and the

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Speaker 1: creator of PhD comics. Hi I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist,

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Speaker 1: and I'm constantly amazed at the strangeness and the bonkers

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Speaker 1: nous of the universe that we live in. Do you

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Speaker 1: think the universe is bonkers? Like it is bonkers or

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Speaker 1: it was made bonkers or made by a bonkers I

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Speaker 1: won't speak to the mind of the creator if one exists,

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Speaker 1: but it does continue to astound me how strange and

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Speaker 1: how weird the univer is, and the fact that it

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Speaker 1: is weird, that it seems strange, that it's counter to

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Speaker 1: our expectations because we are part of the universe, So

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Speaker 1: why doesn't it feel intuitive to us? Well, you know

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Speaker 1: what I always say, if your expectations are not being met,

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Speaker 1: maybe you should change your expectations, Daniel, I should try

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Speaker 1: the Scandinavian approach. Just expect to be disappointed all the

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Speaker 1: time and then be pleased when you're not, or expect

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Speaker 1: to be surprised. You know, it's only weird because you

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Speaker 1: think it's weird because it doesn't mean but really, really,

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Speaker 1: the universe was here first, so that's true. Maybe the

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Speaker 1: universe thinks we're weird. We are kind of bonkers after all.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to our bonkers podcast. Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe,

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Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio in which we have

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Speaker 1: no idea what the universe thinks of us, but we

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Speaker 1: do dive deep into what human minds think about the universe,

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Speaker 1: the questions we have about the way it works. At

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Speaker 1: the tiniest scale of frothing buzzing quantum particles to the

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Speaker 1: very biggest scale of galaxy formations and the entire fate

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Speaker 1: of the universe. We question the very nature of reality,

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Speaker 1: peel it back to see what's going on underneath, and

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Speaker 1: we explain all of it to you, at least as

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Speaker 1: far as we understand. Yeah, because it is a pretty

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Speaker 1: big universe, and there's a lot that seems very puzzling

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Speaker 1: and perplexing to us. It's, you know, wonderful and amazing

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Speaker 1: and beautiful it seems sometimes but also a little bit

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Speaker 1: terrifying and powerful and sometimes even dangerous. It sometimes seems

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Speaker 1: amazing that we even live here. You know, we could

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Speaker 1: have been wiped out by a supernova nearby, or could

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Speaker 1: be that with small changes in the nature of the particles,

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Speaker 1: we couldn't have had the chemistry we need for life

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Speaker 1: to happen. Sometimes it seems like a lot of things

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Speaker 1: had to go just right for us to evolve and

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Speaker 1: to survive. Yeah, and if we hadn't been here, who

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Speaker 1: would be asking these questions? Daniel, That's the main question.

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Speaker 1: Probably some better looking, smarter version of us. If that's yeah, impossible,

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Speaker 1: but we just disproved that theory or improbable at least.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it is a pretty amazing universe. And sometimes

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Speaker 1: you have to wonder, like, how did it come to

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Speaker 1: be like that? And how coming it came to be?

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Speaker 1: And we are here and we are looking at it

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Speaker 1: and wondering how it works. That's right, and that is

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Speaker 1: one of the deepest questions in physics. We are often

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Speaker 1: asking how do things work? What's going on with these particles?

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Speaker 1: But underlying that there is a question standing in the

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Speaker 1: wings waiting for an answer, and that question really is

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Speaker 1: why this universe? Why is the universe of this one

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Speaker 1: and not some other one? Could it have been a

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Speaker 1: different universe, or is this the only possible way for

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Speaker 1: universe to exist? What does it mean that we ended

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Speaker 1: up in this universe? Well, for thankful that we are

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Speaker 1: in this universe, I guess, or that this universe is

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Speaker 1: here for us. But to understand these questions sometimes you

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Speaker 1: kind of have to look outside of physics to think

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Speaker 1: about the new ways in which you might answer these

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Speaker 1: types of queries. That's right, And when we look to biology,

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Speaker 1: for example, we find a very compelling and very powerful,

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Speaker 1: very broadly useful argument for understanding why creatures exist and

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Speaker 1: have certain traits. When we look at, for example, the

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Speaker 1: beaks of birds and ask like, why do they have

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Speaker 1: that shape? We get the answer when we look at

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Speaker 1: the nuts they eat or they bug that they have

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Speaker 1: to pick up. They seem to be very well suited

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Speaker 1: to their environment and for a reason. Yeah, So to

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Speaker 1: be on the podcast really asking the question is the

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Speaker 1: universe the result of natural selection? All right? We're asking

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Speaker 1: some big questions. Did they hear? I know that's sort

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Speaker 1: of mind blowing to imagine, Like the universe is a

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Speaker 1: bird on an island somewhere picking on bugs. I thought

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Speaker 1: we were the birds, aren't we the birds. I think

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Speaker 1: we might be the bugs and or the nuts, like

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Speaker 1: the nuts are we're wondering how some some things are

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Speaker 1: are suited to eat us. No, we are the birds,

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Speaker 1: and when physics is the nuts and we're trying to

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Speaker 1: crack it open. Oh boy, I'm getting lost in these

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Speaker 1: analogies here. I know I'm driving you nuts, But it

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Speaker 1: is a fun idea to wonder if the universe could

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Speaker 1: have been other ways, and if the universe that we

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Speaker 1: ended up when is this way because of some sort

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Speaker 1: of process that guides the formation of universes to end

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Speaker 1: up at one that sort of works. WHOA you mean

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Speaker 1: like the evolution of universe is multiple universes over countless time,

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Speaker 1: somehow changing and evolving. Yeah, that's the idea. We have

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Speaker 1: talked about multiverses and many times on this podcast. But

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Speaker 1: this is sort of like a different take. Instead of

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Speaker 1: imagining the universe is actually many universes all sort of

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Speaker 1: rolled up into one grand idea, this is like maybe

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Speaker 1: our universe is in competition with other universes on some

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Speaker 1: sort of like meta universe playing field. WHOA like an

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Speaker 1: African savannah but for universes. And then there's some kind

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Speaker 1: of predator, some universe predator, some universe eating. I think

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Speaker 1: I saw that on an episode of the new show

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Speaker 1: Look what can eat an entire universe? Exactly right, and

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Speaker 1: so maybe Marvel got it right. As usual, they can

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Speaker 1: do no wrong. Well, this is a kind of a

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Speaker 1: mind bogging question, big ideas here, and so we were

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Speaker 1: wondering how many people out there had thought about the

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Speaker 1: universe as evolving and or as being the result of

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Speaker 1: something like natural select. So Daniel went out there as

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Speaker 1: usual and ask people on the internet what they thought

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Speaker 1: of this question. That's right, and so thank you to

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Speaker 1: everybody who's willing to entertain my crazy questions without the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to think about it or to prepare. If you'd

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Speaker 1: like to participate for a future episode, we would love

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Speaker 1: to hear your voice on the podcast. Just to write

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Speaker 1: us an email, no special equipment required. Shoot us an

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Speaker 1: email two questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com. So

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Speaker 1: think about it for a second. If someone asked you

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Speaker 1: what is cosmological natural selection? What would come to mind

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Speaker 1: in your brain? Here's what people had to say. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna say those bodies orbiting around a star that have

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Speaker 1: the most stable gravitational orbits last the longest. Every star

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Speaker 1: for itself, may the strongest in the universe survive and

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Speaker 1: the weakest universal objects becomes space test well, I guess

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Speaker 1: planet stars, gallessies, etcetera. Survival of the fittest would apply

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Speaker 1: to another star is more likely to pass on positive traits.

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Speaker 1: Does that have an influence on the next generation stars.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's a theory that explains why there are no

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Speaker 1: medium sized black holes by using an analogy from evolution.

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Speaker 1: Maybe there were some conditions in the environment that made

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Speaker 1: them go extinct, while the supermassive black holes with you

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Speaker 1: today lived on and appropriated. Assuming that's the thing they

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Speaker 1: can do, all right. Nobody said in African Savannah with

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Speaker 1: the universes, nobody talked about something eating universes. It's a

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Speaker 1: pretty crazy idea to encapsulate in just three words, cosmological

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Speaker 1: natural selection. So we didn't give them a whole lot

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Speaker 1: to go on. It seems like people didn't trigger something

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Speaker 1: big in their heads. Like most people stuck to stars

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Speaker 1: or galaxies as maybe evolving, but nobody thought about the

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Speaker 1: universe evolving. It's sort of too crazy, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: sort of too big an idea to even leap to

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Speaker 1: from this concept. It's sort of bold. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I like that. I like that about bold ideas. Like

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Speaker 1: for as you hear about someing, you think, what, that's great.

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Speaker 1: Hold on a second, maybe that makes a little bit

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Speaker 1: of sense. That's the nice thing about crazy, big ideas.

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Speaker 1: I guess. You know, even ideas like the multiverse, at

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Speaker 1: some point, you know, seem crazy and insane, and but

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Speaker 1: now people seem to kind of accept it, and some

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Speaker 1: people even assume it's true, like people like Marvel. That

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Speaker 1: you can't necessarily turn that around. Just because some ideas

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Speaker 1: which now make a lot of sense once seemed crazy

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that every crazy seeming idea will eventually make sense,

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Speaker 1: right right, right. Sense only works one way, It only

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Speaker 1: makes sense, it makes sense one way. There are a

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Speaker 1: lot of crazy seeming ideas that we don't talk about

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Speaker 1: it anymore because they still seem crazy right the whole,

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Speaker 1: Like the universe is like turtles and turtles all the

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Speaker 1: way down on top of some elephants or something that

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Speaker 1: also seemed bonkers. But that doesn't mean it's true. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: it's gotta have some legs, it's got to solve some problems,

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Speaker 1: it's got to open up avenues for exploration, and it's

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Speaker 1: got to sort of hang together mathematically. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: turtles do solve all problems you think about it, and

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Speaker 1: they have legs and they do have legs. Yeah, although

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Speaker 1: they do it kind of slowly, so I mean we're

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Speaker 1: still waiting for those turtles. All right, Well, to step

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Speaker 1: us through this, Daniel, this big idea, what is the

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Speaker 1: cosmological natural selection? So cosmological natural selection is a really

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Speaker 1: fun creative idea by a physicist named Lee Smollen, a

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Speaker 1: theoretical physicist, and it's in solution to what physics calls

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Speaker 1: a fine tuning problem, which is just a fancy way

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Speaker 1: of saying, like, why is the universe the way that

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Speaker 1: it is, because it seems like it could have been

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Speaker 1: lots of other ways. So before we dig into how

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Speaker 1: he tries to answer that question, let's make sure we

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Speaker 1: have like a good grasp on what the question is.

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Speaker 1: What is the problem we're trying to solve. Why is

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Speaker 1: the tricky to understand that the universe is this way

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Speaker 1: and not some other way? Right? Because you know, as physicist,

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Speaker 1: you've been sort of drilling down on the equations that

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Speaker 1: make the universe work, and at some point you come

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Speaker 1: upon something that you're like, you can't explain, like it

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Speaker 1: just seems to be the way it is, because it

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Speaker 1: seems to be the way it is, Like you can't

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Speaker 1: really explain why pious three point one four or the

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Speaker 1: cosmological constant is is X. Right, that's exactly right. You know.

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Speaker 1: The grand goal of physics is to summarize everything we see,

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Speaker 1: all phenomena, all matter, all energy, all forces in terms

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Speaker 1: of one concept, you know, like maybe a single equation

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Speaker 1: that we could write onto a T shirt. And so

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Speaker 1: we've made a lot of progress there. We have a

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Speaker 1: few equations. They don't quite fit onto a T shirt,

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Speaker 1: but they're kind of beautiful and compact, and you know,

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Speaker 1: they describe a portion of the universe that we understand

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Speaker 1: that we've explored. Well, it depends on the size of

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Speaker 1: your your T shirt. Just get a bigger T shirt,

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Speaker 1: Like I said, just adjust your expectations of what a

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Speaker 1: T shirt uh is or how many people can fit in.

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Speaker 1: It might solve your problem. That's right. If we go

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Speaker 1: to micro font and then it's no problem. We can

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Speaker 1: describe the whole universe on a T shirt. But currently

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Speaker 1: we have this model of particles and their interactions. We

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Speaker 1: call it the standard model, and as you say, there

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Speaker 1: are parts of it that we don't understand, you know,

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Speaker 1: not just the structure, but there's lots of questions about

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Speaker 1: the structure of you know, like why are their copies

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Speaker 1: of these particles electron, Muan, Tau, but also just we

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Speaker 1: find numbers in these equations, and those numbers have no

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Speaker 1: explanation that we can find. They are just numbers, and

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Speaker 1: the theory doesn't tell us what those numbers have to be.

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Speaker 1: We have to go out and measure them. One of

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Speaker 1: these numbers, for example, as you say, is the cosmological constant,

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Speaker 1: this rate at which the universe seems to be expanding.

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Speaker 1: We don't know why that number is what it is.

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Speaker 1: We have no theoretical prediction for what it should be.

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Speaker 1: It's just like a placeholder, like a parameter. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of like you're in the control panel for the universe

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Speaker 1: and it just has these knobs. You know. The structure

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Speaker 1: of the universe is this control panel, and you could

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Speaker 1: turn the values of these parameters up or down and

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Speaker 1: maybe get different universes that follow the same basic laws

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Speaker 1: of physics. But you know, with different settings on those knobs, right,

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Speaker 1: they seem like arbitrary, like somebody came in before you

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Speaker 1: and adjusted to those dials, and then you came in

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Speaker 1: and you're like, why did you set these dials? Yes, exactly,

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Speaker 1: we have no explanation and for why these numbers are

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Speaker 1: where they are. And you might be tempted to think

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Speaker 1: about numbers like this speed of light because we don't

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Speaker 1: know why the speed of light is the speed of light,

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Speaker 1: you know, why isn't it not faster or slower. It's

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Speaker 1: a little tricky because the speed of light has units

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Speaker 1: on it, right, it's meters per second. So the actual

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Speaker 1: number there depends on the units you choose. If you

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Speaker 1: change the meter or change the second, you get a

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Speaker 1: different number. So physicists like to focus on dimensionless numbers.

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Speaker 1: You can rearrange all these constants of the universe in

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Speaker 1: ratios and whatever to get rid of the units in

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Speaker 1: unit with pure numbers numbers that just are. And you know,

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Speaker 1: if all those numbers were one, we'd be like, cool,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. Where if all those numbers were ten

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Speaker 1: or something, it would make sense. But they're all really different.

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Speaker 1: Some of them are really small, some of them are

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Speaker 1: really large, and we just have no explanation for them. So,

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Speaker 1: as you say, they seem kind of arbitrary, and we wonder,

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Speaker 1: you know, like could they be different? Could you have

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Speaker 1: had another universe with different values of those numbers? And

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Speaker 1: we think through like what the physics could be like.

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Speaker 1: But the physics would be really really different in the

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Speaker 1: universe would be totally different from the one we see.

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Speaker 1: And so we wonder, like, why are these values what

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Speaker 1: they are? They seem to be sort of just right

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Speaker 1: to give us the universe that we have. So these

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Speaker 1: are like ratios, I imagine it would be like saying,

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Speaker 1: what is the rate at which the universe is expanding?

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, there's seven point four seven percent

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Speaker 1: and so that's that's a dimensionless constant to write a percentage.

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Speaker 1: So is that what you mean? Like ratios of like

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Speaker 1: the number of so and so particles through so and

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Speaker 1: so other particles. Yeah, that kind of thing. So one

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Speaker 1: of the most important dimensionless constant is called the fine

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Speaker 1: structure constant. It includes the speed of light and the

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Speaker 1: charge of the electron and planks constant. And if you

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Speaker 1: change that number, then physics changes because that affects like

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Speaker 1: how strongly. Electrons and pausit trying to repel each other,

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Speaker 1: and you know the distances at which things feel these

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Speaker 1: kinds of forces. Other important ones are ratios of the

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Speaker 1: masses of the particles, like why is the muan so

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Speaker 1: much heavier than the electron? Why is the top corks

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Speaker 1: so much heavier than everything else? You know, if you

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Speaker 1: change those numbers, you also really change how physics work,

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Speaker 1: you know, like what if the electron wasn't the light

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Speaker 1: just leapt on? What if we had muans in our

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Speaker 1: bodies instead of electrons because muans were lighter mass, Like

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Speaker 1: that would really change everything, right, But you're you're really

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Speaker 1: sort of asking two questions, right, aren't you. Like you're asking,

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Speaker 1: for example, in the case of the electron, like what

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Speaker 1: is the mass of the electron the way it is?

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Speaker 1: And also why is the mass of the other cousins

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Speaker 1: of the electron you know a certain number of times

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Speaker 1: dead mass with the electron? Yeah, exactly. And so there's

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Speaker 1: lots of different ways you're going to arrange these things.

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Speaker 1: But fundamentally, we're looking at a set of numbers, and

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Speaker 1: those numbers control the way the universe is, and we

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Speaker 1: don't know why those numbers are what they are, and

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Speaker 1: you know, as you said earlier, one possible explanation is,

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Speaker 1: we know if those numbers were different, who would be

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Speaker 1: here asking that question? And that's a popular answer, and

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Speaker 1: it goes by the name of the anthropic principle. It

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Speaker 1: just says that if the numbers were different, you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: get humans and you wouldn't get intelligence, and nobody would

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Speaker 1: be asking. So only in a universe where things happen

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Speaker 1: to work in just this way do you have people

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Speaker 1: to ask that question? So you want to ask that

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Speaker 1: question when it's possible, And that's sort of like a

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Speaker 1: circular explanation, but a lot of people like that answer.

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Speaker 1: Sort of like my kids asking why is our house

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Speaker 1: designed that way? It's like they are just born into

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Speaker 1: the house. Been born in a different house, they would

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Speaker 1: be asking a different question about that house. Yeah. Or

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Speaker 1: it's like kids asking, you know, why am I here?

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Speaker 1: Why was I created? And not some other kid? You know, like, well,

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Speaker 1: if I had had a different kid, because you know,

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Speaker 1: you've been conceived in a different moment, that kid might

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Speaker 1: be asking the same question, or you know, have different

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Speaker 1: interests or whatever, ask a different question. Right, Basically, you

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Speaker 1: want to tell your kids they're not special. Of course,

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Speaker 1: my kids are special. Everybody else kids I don't know about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like anthropic parenting. And my complaint with this

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Speaker 1: is that it's sort of like giving up. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of like saying there is no explanation, look no further,

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Speaker 1: Whereas what I like in science is when you're always

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Speaker 1: trying to dig deeper. You're always saying, there must be

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Speaker 1: a reason for this to happen. Let's look deeper, because

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Speaker 1: it's possible that there is a deeper sir. Right, We

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Speaker 1: certainly don't have the final theory of physics. We know

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Speaker 1: that our description of particles and their interactions is flawed

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Speaker 1: and limited, because we know, for example, it breaks down

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Speaker 1: if you have really really high energies. Our theory just

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Speaker 1: doesn't work. And so we know we need some sort

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Speaker 1: of deeper theory. And so maybe you know there is

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Speaker 1: some deeper explanation one we just haven't found yet, that

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Speaker 1: explains these values and says these values have to be

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Speaker 1: certain numbers, like, there's not arbitrary. It only works if

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Speaker 1: they are these numbers. We just don't quite see the

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Speaker 1: full picture yet, And so I don't like the entropic answer,

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Speaker 1: because I always want to strive for that deeper understanding, right,

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Speaker 1: Like maybe you'll dig deeper into the equations and find

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Speaker 1: that if the electron had half the mass that it

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Speaker 1: does right now, it just doesn't make for a logical

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Speaker 1: universe or like a universe dead. You know, it gives

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Speaker 1: you tupiles to equal seven, Like that's what you want.

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Speaker 1: You wanted to boil it down to one question and say, look,

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Speaker 1: if you change this, then you wouldn't it wouldn't logically work, right,

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Speaker 1: because that's kind of the only alternative when you say,

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Speaker 1: like it's think things have to be a certain way,

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Speaker 1: like not being able to be a certain way mean

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Speaker 1: that it would be illogical. Yeah, And people are looking

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Speaker 1: for a theory of the universe that's self consistent, right,

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Speaker 1: So the sort of philosophical implication there is that only

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Speaker 1: self consistent universes can exist. And so maybe there's a

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Speaker 1: reason why those other values of those numbers make for

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Speaker 1: some inconsistency, and there you need to have some sort

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Speaker 1: of physics principle we haven't yet discovered, right that shows

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Speaker 1: us why those things would be inconsistent, you know, And

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Speaker 1: we don't have that, but we can sketch the sort

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Speaker 1: of like rough idea. You know, maybe for example, string

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Speaker 1: theory is correct, and at the basic level the universe

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Speaker 1: are these little, tiny vibrating strings and they can only

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Speaker 1: vibrate in certain ways and because of their basic fundamental nature,

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Speaker 1: and that leads to certain properties that we then measure,

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Speaker 1: you know, at our scale, which have to come out

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Speaker 1: this certain way, and that you just can't have an

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Speaker 1: electron with a different charge, and you can't have them

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Speaker 1: you want with four times as much mass as the electron.

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Speaker 1: You have to have the numbers that we have now,

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Speaker 1: and it comes out of some deeper logic that we

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Speaker 1: just don't know yet. So we don't have that theory yet,

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Speaker 1: but you know, you can imagine that kind of theory existing, right.

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Speaker 1: But that is still satisfy you though as a physicist,

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Speaker 1: like did you say, Well, that's just the way the

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Speaker 1: universe is, and it has to be that way because

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Speaker 1: of the way the universe is. I'll never be satisfied,

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Speaker 1: absolutely not when we get that answer that explains all

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Speaker 1: the mysteries we see today. There will just always be

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Speaker 1: more questions. And that's what I don't like about the

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Speaker 1: anthropic principle because it stops you from asking that next

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Speaker 1: round of questions, whereas I feel like science is this

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Speaker 1: cycle of digging every deeper into the most basic questions.

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Speaker 1: And you know, even if we exhaust physics and we

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Speaker 1: get just one single theory that describes the whole universe,

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Speaker 1: will always have philosophy because we can always ask like, well,

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Speaker 1: what does it mean? Man? What does it mean? And

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Speaker 1: that's one potential way to answer why the universe is

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Speaker 1: the way it is, Why those numbers are all the

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Speaker 1: way that the numbers that they are. Maybe there's some

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Speaker 1: asked yet to be discovered, you know, equation or theory

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Speaker 1: that explains them all that makes them want to be

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Speaker 1: those numbers or makes them have to be those numbers.

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Speaker 1: But then there's another theory about what could explain them, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And another way to approach this problem is to say,

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Speaker 1: maybe the values aren't arbitrary, maybe they are random, Like

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Speaker 1: maybe it's possible to have different universes with different values,

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Speaker 1: and all the universes would all the different values exist.

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Speaker 1: This is the multiverse explanation to say that maybe all

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Speaker 1: those possible universes are out there with these different values

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Speaker 1: of the parameters, and there's different physics in each one,

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Speaker 1: and this just happens to be the one that we

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Speaker 1: are in, right. It's like you walk into a control room.

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Speaker 1: You see all the knobs turning to a certain number

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Speaker 1: for all the values of the universe, and you're like,

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Speaker 1: why are they like this? And the answer is sort

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Speaker 1: of like, well, that's because there's another control room next

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Speaker 1: to you with the value said a little bit different,

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Speaker 1: and next to that one is another control with the

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Speaker 1: value said a little bit different at up to infinity.

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Speaker 1: That's sort of an explanation, and it doesn't answer questions like,

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Speaker 1: you know, well, who chooses those values? Or is it

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Speaker 1: truly random like quantum mechanically random, or is it like

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Speaker 1: systematic where you get one universe for every possible value?

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Speaker 1: Are there an infinite number of them? There's so many

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Speaker 1: questions opened up by that, and unfortunately, it's pretty difficult

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Speaker 1: to probe that kind of theory, like where do you

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Speaker 1: go from here? You know, if those universes exist or not?

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Speaker 1: You know, can we ever discover them? No? Can we

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Speaker 1: interact with them? No? So can we prove fundamentally that

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Speaker 1: they exist? Folks like Sean Carroll would argue that you

429
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 1: can sort of implicitly prove they exist if you demonstrate

430
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 1: that it's the only way to make sense of the universe,

431
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 1: that our theory of physics requires that they exist, and

432
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: it's the only theory that you can develop. It's a

433
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 1: bit weaker than actually finding them and exploring them. But

434
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: you know, it's an argument to suggest that the multiverse

435
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 1: might be real because I guess that would sort of

436
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: explain why we have the one we have is that

437
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 1: it's just like a random role to die, although you

438
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,159
Speaker 1: could you make the argument that you know, the universe

439
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,399
Speaker 1: only role to die ones like does it have to

440
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 1: roll to die an infinite number of times? It's a

441
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 1: great question and one it's hard to probe. But what

442
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 1: we can do is look at the numbers that we

443
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 1: have and ask are they likely? Is this a likely arrangement?

444
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 1: And here we're get into really fuzzy territory. But physicist

445
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: look at the numbers we have and they feel weird

446
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 1: about them. They're like, the cosmological constant is very small,

447
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 1: and these other numbers seem kind of large, and why

448
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: is gravity so so weak? And you know why all

449
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,719
Speaker 1: the forces have such a different strengths, And they make

450
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 1: these really handwavy arguments that suggest that the numbers we

451
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 1: have are somehow improbable or unnatural, and it's more likely

452
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 1: to get a different set of values, and that makes

453
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 1: our universe seems sort of like weird on this like

454
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: multiverse landscape. And I don't know if that's an argument

455
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 1: against the multiverse exactly, but it suggests that you might

456
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 1: need some sort of mechanism to explain why we have

457
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,360
Speaker 1: these numbers. And if this is the only one, then

458
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: you know, the universe are really unlucky or lucky, depending

459
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 1: on your point of view. I think that the universe

460
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: is totally lucky to have us, at least you, Daniel.

461
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,360
Speaker 1: At least we're lucky to have you. All right, Well,

462
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: we have this big question about why the universe is

463
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: the way it is. There are some theories, but they

464
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 1: are a little bit unsatisfying, and so there's sort of

465
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: a new or emerging idea that's is really interesting and

466
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: it's all about evolution. So let's get into that. But

467
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: first let's take a quick break. All right, Daniel, what

468
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 1: does it all mean? Man? Why are we here? Why

469
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: is the universe way it is? What does it seem

470
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: so suited to us? For us to be comfortable in

471
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 1: our houses. Here having a conversation about the way it works. Yeah, exactly.

472
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: Maybe we are just the beaks of those birds, perfectly

473
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 1: evolved to fit into the trees and grab out those grubs.

474
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 1: And you know, that's the inspiration, is that we see

475
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: in biology that it's not random that animals are well

476
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: suited to their environments, that they're very fine tuned, right,

477
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: And they're fine tuned for a reason. There's a mechanism there.

478
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 1: Natural selection operates by enhancing those that are well suited

479
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: right and killing off those that are not, And so

480
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: you're more likely to end up with ers that are

481
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,719
Speaker 1: well suited to the environment. So the environment then shapes

482
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: the nature of the critters. And so the idea was,

483
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: take that and can we use that to explain sort

484
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: of how we find the universe to be fine tuned?

485
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 1: Is there some mechanism we can use to explain how

486
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 1: the universe itself selected these values? So in this analogy,

487
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: in this idea to explain why the universe is the

488
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: way it is, somehow like the universe has been evolving

489
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: in some environment and it's sort of arranged itself or

490
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 1: it came to be the way it is now because

491
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: of some natural selection process that that's kind of the idea, right, Yeah,

492
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: But it's not being selected for us or for physics

493
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: that makes sense, or for physicists or for cartoonists. Is

494
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: being selected for universes with lots of black holes in it? What? Yeah?

495
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: So the basic idea is maybe universes can give birth

496
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,959
Speaker 1: to other universes by creating new universes inside their black holes,

497
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: and that would tend to give you lots of universes

498
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: that have lots of black holes in them. You would

499
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: ended with more universes that have lots of black holes

500
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: than universes that don't have lots of black holes. And

501
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: so maybe our universe is fine tuned to have the

502
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: sets of parameters you would need to give you universes

503
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: with lots of black holes. WHOA, Okay, I feel like

504
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: you just introduce a lot of crazy ideas here, Like,

505
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: first of all, like universe giving birth to other universes,

506
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 1: don't you need to universes? Is this a mono biological birth?

507
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: What do you call those animals that can just split

508
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: off and just butt off? A sexual reproduction? Yes, that's right, yes? Right?

509
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: Is the universe a sexual Yeah? It could be that

510
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: universe is reproduce in lots of different ways. We're open

511
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: minded on this podcast, but the idea is not totally bonkers.

512
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 1: It comes from the recognition that there's a connection between

513
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: what happens inside a black hole and what happens at

514
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: the beginning of our universe, and that connection is a singularity. Right.

515
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: We know that our universe started with a singularity that's

516
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,959
Speaker 1: this crazy dense moment when the universe is like infinitely

517
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 1: dense and then expanded out really rapid that we call

518
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 1: that the Big Bang. And we know that there's a

519
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: singularity at the heart of black holes, or we think

520
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: there is according to general relativity. And so this idea says, like,

521
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: maybe every singularity at the heart of a black hole

522
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: is actually a singularity to create a new universe. WHOA,

523
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: But then I guess. So then the idea is that

524
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: the universe that is created inside of a black hole

525
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: exists within the black hole, or does it grow out

526
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: and take over its parent universe exists within the black hole.

527
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: So the idea is that instead of imagining inside a

528
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: black hole, you have like a dead singularity that's just

529
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: like super dense point that instead you have something dynamic

530
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: that it's a bounce instead of like just to collapse

531
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: into a singularity that matter collapses, you get this moment

532
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: of great density, and then you get a new expanding

533
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 1: region of space time within the black hole and never escapes.

534
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: You can't see it from the outside of the black hole,

535
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: but that maybe inside black holes we have this region

536
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: of expanding space time began with the singularity of infinite density,

537
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: just like our universe, and so it's sort of like

538
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: this bounce moment where it collapses into a singularity and

539
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: then starts expanding out again, expanding but still inside of

540
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: the black hole, still inside the it's like a little

541
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: bubble inside of the black hole of regular space. And

542
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: this sort of connects to an idea we talked about

543
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: recently about whether black holes actually are black holes, and

544
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 1: we talked about how these objects, whatever they are, are

545
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: in regions of very warped space time, which means that

546
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: their time slows down dramatically. So when you're looking at

547
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: a black hole, instead of looking at something which is

548
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: sort of like a dead singularity, you might be looking

549
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: at something dynamic which is collapsing and then going to

550
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: bounce back. But it's just super duper slowed down, so

551
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: that what takes micro seconds and its time takes billions

552
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 1: or trillions of years for us. So this is sort

553
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 1: of a similar idea to say, maybe black holes are

554
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: not just like static little dense objects collecting more mass,

555
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: but there are this bounce where you come to a

556
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: point a great density and then start expanding out into effectively,

557
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: what's a new universe inside each black hole? WHOA, But

558
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: then wouldn't that mean that each universe is like bounded

559
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: or finite, you know, like it has a limited amount

560
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: of energy to it, whereas you know, it seems like

561
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: our universe has almost it looks almost infinite, and it

562
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: has almost infinite amount of energy. How did all this

563
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: stuff that we're living in come from, like a tiny

564
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: black hole for example? Yeah, exactly. That would mean that

565
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: there is a bound on the universe, But we don't

566
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 1: know if our universe is bounded. With some of our

567
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: theories of cosmology suggests that it should be infinite. It

568
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: would be most natural if it were infinite, but we

569
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: just don't know that, and we can only see a

570
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: limited part of the universe. The portion of the universe

571
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: we can see now is about ninety three billion light

572
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: years wide, and we just don't know what's beyond that.

573
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: And we also know that our universe is expanding, and

574
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: the mechanism for that is totally unexplained. So it is

575
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: possible that our entire universe is inside some like mega

576
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: black hole that's just unimaginably wide. Okay, So then the

577
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: idea is that in our universe, or basically any universe,

578
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: whenever there's a black hole, it's sort of creating a

579
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: whole new kind of universe, and those new universes are

580
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: the same or slightly different than the parent universe. They're

581
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: slightly different. So when you create a new universe inside

582
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: a black hole somehow, and this is like where the

583
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: magic happens, the laws of physics tweak a little bit,

584
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: like that process of bending space time and that singularity

585
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: somehow changes the fundamental constants of that universe a little bit.

586
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: And this part of the theory is extremely fuzzy because

587
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: like we don't have a mechanism to understand how that

588
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: might happen. It's just like a what if. And so

589
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: in that way, you can sort of like explore different

590
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: possible universes. You can in one universe create lots of

591
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: babies with different sort of properties, the same way that

592
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: in natural selection, if a spider has a thousand offspring

593
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: and they're all a little bit different than the ones

594
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: that are best suited to survival, will continue. So in

595
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: this model, you create lots of baby universes in law

596
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: two black holes and the ones that are more likely

597
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: to create more black holes within them. So now black

598
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: holes within black holes are more likely to create more universes, right,

599
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: and so you can just call those black holes turtles,

600
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: and it is sort of turtles all the way. Now,

601
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: I think a big question here is you know, like

602
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: in natural selection and regular biological evolution, you have DNA,

603
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: and that makes sense that like your DNA changes a

604
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: little and then your kids carry on that DNA that's

605
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: changed a little bit. But like you said, there's sort

606
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: of no known way in which like that new universe

607
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: we will have different constants, right, Like, like why would

608
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: it have different constants if it's being born in the

609
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: in the universe with certain laws and certain constants. Yeah, absolutely,

610
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: that's not something we understand. And you're right, Like for

611
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: natural selection, we understand the mechanism of it, right, you

612
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: have the genetic code which is then modified. And so

613
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: in this case we have no explanation for how that happens,

614
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: no mechanism for it. You know, maybe the fundamental constants

615
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: of the universe are ord in some deep process and

616
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: the creation of a singularity disturbs that process. Really just speculating,

617
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: and the theory itself has not been fleshed out. We

618
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: don't have any sort of like DNA like mechanism that

619
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: explains where these parameters are like stored and how they

620
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: might be modified by a singularities. Really just speculation, But

621
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: you know, physics works this way. Sometimes we're like, let's, uh,

622
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, put a bunch of dots down, and we'll

623
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: come back later and connect to those dots. But let's

624
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: see how far we can get with sort of a

625
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: string of big ideas, and you know, we'll circle back

626
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: and filling some of the crucial details later. All right, Well,

627
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: so then the basic ideas that you know, our universe

628
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: makes a whole bunch of black holes, and each of

629
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: those black holes has a universe, and some of the

630
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: our baby universes make more black holes, and some of

631
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: them don't make a lot of black holes, and so

632
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: the ones that make more black holes are then going

633
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: to have their own kid universes who are also good

634
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: at making black holes, and some of them will make

635
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: more black holes. And eventually, don't you get to a

636
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: universe that's all black holes. And that's the idea that

637
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: this process is more like to give you universes that

638
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: are likely to have black holes, and so you should

639
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: end up with universes where the numbers are fine tuned

640
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: to sort of maximize black holes. And so that's the

641
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: argument at least Moan makes is he says, I'm looking

642
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: at the parameters, and it seems to me like if

643
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: you change some of these parameters, you end up with

644
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: fewer black holes in the universe. And so maybe our

645
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: universe is sort of like at the maximum black holiness. Oh,

646
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 1: I see, that's the idea that somehow, maybe we're at

647
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: the maximum black hole capacity, Like this is the most

648
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: that any universe can make of black holes. That's sort

649
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: of the argument, and we'll talk later about whether that's

650
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: actually true. But you know, it's got to maximize something,

651
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: and it's interesting this idea that it doesn't maximize us, right.

652
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: I like this idea because it's not anthrocentric. It's not

653
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 1: like the universe was created for us. It's like, oh,

654
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: it turns out we're a byproduct of the universe being

655
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: optimized for something totally different, which is production of black holes.

656
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: And that's pretty cool. And you know, it's interesting how

657
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: many black holes there are right there, black holes everywhere.

658
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: Every galaxy is a super massive black hole in it.

659
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: Stars are collapsing in the black holes all the time.

660
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: It does seem like the fate of our universe, as

661
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: you say, is to end up as a huge string

662
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: of black holes. And so it does kind of feel

663
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: like we are a maximal black holiness and we should

664
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: rename the podcast to maximal black Holiness. That has a

665
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: better ring to it. Maybe. All right, well, let's get

666
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: into what does it all mean, man, and is this

667
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: theory right or is it totally bonkers? But first let's

668
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: take another quick break. All right, we are talking about

669
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,959
Speaker 1: cosmological natural selection, the idea that the universe somehow evolved

670
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: to be the way it is and that's why it

671
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: is the way it is. We talked about how maybe

672
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: the universe is the way it is because we're at

673
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: like optimal black hole making capacity of the universe, and

674
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: so that's why the universe is the way it is

675
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: and not some other way. Yeah. So I so I

676
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: question was, why do we think that we're an optimal

677
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: maximal black holiness or black hole making capacity, Like couldn't

678
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: it feels like there's a lot of rooms still left

679
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 1: in the universe for to make more black holes? Yeah,

680
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: how would you make our universe black holier? I don't know,

681
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 1: I just poke a bunch of holes in it, you know,

682
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: Like why not? Like could in the universe be such

683
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: a way that they pop up more randomly or something.

684
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: It's really interesting to think about. And you know, it

685
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: takes some of these parameters like the mass of the

686
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: strange cork for example, you know, relative to the mass

687
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: of the other corks. It's interesting because that actually does

688
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: help determine the number of black holes in our universe

689
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: because it creates an opportunity for matter to form something

690
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: that's not a black hole, that's a neutron star. Like

691
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: if you have not enough stuff in your star, then

692
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: sometimes when it collapses, it doesn't form a black hole.

693
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: Instead it forms a neutron star. And it forms a

694
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: neutron star because gravity isn't powerful enough to overcome the

695
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: nuclear force. Is that are preventing the collapse, and that's

696
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: partially controlled by the mass of the strange cork. You know,

697
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: what happens inside a neutron star is not something that

698
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,439
Speaker 1: we understand very well. It's the strong force at work,

699
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: zillions of bluons back and forth all the time. But

700
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: these things are very sensitively dependent on the masses of

701
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: the corks that are involved. And so, for example, if

702
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: you increase the strange cork mass, if we were in

703
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: a universe where the strange cork mass was larger than

704
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: those forces would be more powerful and lots more stars

705
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: would collapse into neutron stars instead of black holes. So

706
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: you tweak this parameter, you get fewer black holes in

707
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: our universe. But then wouldn't that work the other way

708
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: to like, if you decrease the strange cork mass, and

709
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: you would get more black holes. So why isn't the

710
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: mass of the strange cork smaller if we are an

711
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: optimal black hole making capacity? And that's one of the

712
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: main criticisms. Lee Smolin came up with this argument, and

713
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: he suggested that a lot of these parameters are tuned

714
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: for black holes. But then other people came and looked

715
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: at these parameters, like, actually, it's not that hard to

716
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: make universes that are black holier Joe Silka, famous astronomer,

717
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: tweaked the parameters and he came up with a universe

718
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: that could make ten thousand times more black holes than

719
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: our universe. And you know, number one is you decrease

720
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: the strange cork mass, and number two is you crank

721
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: up the strength of gravity. Right, so it tends to

722
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: collapse things faster. You don't want to crank it up

723
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: too much, right, You want a large number of black holes,

724
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: not just like a single black hole. So you've gotta

725
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: left stuff spread out a little bit and then collapse

726
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,959
Speaker 1: into a lot of black holes. M oh, I see

727
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 1: you're saying things are being like this for a number

728
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: of black holes, not like, let's make a giant black hole,

729
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 1: because if you do, then that means you only have

730
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: one offspring. Kind of That's right. As fun as that sounds,

731
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: let's make a giant black hole, it's maybe not the

732
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: best plan if your goal is to have lots and

733
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: lots of baby universes, not just one mega baby, right,

734
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: But I guess you also don't want to have you know,

735
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 1: lots and lots of or like an infinite number of

736
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: tiny baby black holes right or small tiny sort of

737
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: easy to evapp for a black holes, you want like

738
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 1: a good number of significant black holes as your children exactly.

739
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 1: If your black holes are too small, then they will evaporate,

740
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: as you say, because black holes are not completely black,

741
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: they give off a little bit of energy, and they

742
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: give off more energy the smaller they are, so smaller

743
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: black holes are more likely to evaporate away into nothingness.

744
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: So you need to be big enough that they can

745
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: be sustained that they can keep gobbling things. So you

746
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: don't want one mega black hole, you don't want an

747
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: infinite number of tiny ones. There is a little bit

748
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: of a balancing act to play there. So the basic

749
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: ideas that maybe all those control maps in the universe,

750
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: all those numbers that we can't explain, are the way

751
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: they are because somehow they maximize the universe's conditions for

752
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 1: making the right, the most and best kind of black

753
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: holes exactly. And that doesn't argue that the universe has

754
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: to be maximized for black holiness, to suggest that there

755
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: are lots of universes out there, but there are more

756
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: that are close to this maximum because they tend to

757
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: produce more. And so if you're gonna randomly choose among

758
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: uni versus to be in that you're more likely to

759
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: end up in the universe that's closer to the maximum.

760
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: Oh I see, yeah, because I was wondering, like in

761
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: this idea of the universe evolving or universe is evolving,

762
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: there's no natural selection process really, right, There's no like

763
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: predator killing off weak universes or you know, something destroying

764
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 1: the universes that don't make a lot of black hole.

765
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: It's more like you're more represented in the population of

766
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: all the universes that exist if you're good at making

767
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: black holes. Yeah, everybody can make as many babies as

768
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: I can, and then it's just a race to have

769
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: the most babies. Nobody's eating anybody else's babies. But if

770
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: you're gonna randomly pick somebody to be you're gonna end

771
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: up in a family that makes more babies. Right, So

772
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: there's like an infinite savannah out there in some universe Africa.

773
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 1: There are no predators. You know, you can multiply as

774
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: you see fit. But the animals or universes that are

775
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: good at multiplying, they're just gonna be more overrepresent they're

776
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 1: going to basically take over the savannah, right, this infinite savannah.

777
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: And so then that means that we are if we

778
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,439
Speaker 1: are going to this in the universe, we're more likely

779
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: to exist in the universe that's good at making baby

780
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: black holes. That's the argument. And you know, there's a

781
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: lot of steps there and a lot of questions, but

782
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 1: it's sort of the structure of it interesting. So then

783
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: it's still sort of tentative. And so what are some

784
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: criticisms I guess, or what does it all means do

785
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 1: to have any interesting implications if it were true? Yeah,

786
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: there aren't criticisms of it. People argue that we're not

787
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 1: actually that close to maximum black hole production, as I say,

788
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: people to tweak the parameters and done some simulations and

789
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 1: suggested that you could get many, many more black holes

790
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: than you have in our universe. And you know, the

791
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: thing about this argument is that it's impossible to disprove

792
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: that way. You could say, oh, well, this is the

793
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: way the universe works. We're just a little bit unlucky.

794
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: We're close to the maximum, we're not necessarily at the maximum.

795
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 1: We're gonna get the best parents have pretty pretty good

796
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: parents we're not in the biggest family, but you know,

797
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: we're not doing too bad. But it does definitely weaken

798
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: the argument. It would be a more compelling argument if

799
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: we were like right at the maximum and you have

800
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: this good argument to suggest that certain values of all

801
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: these univer as parameters overwhelmed everything else, than so the

802
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 1: universe should be totally dominated by numbers very very close

803
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: to the optimal values. So that's not exactly the case. Well,

804
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: I guess that counter argument to that counter argument is that, like,

805
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: maybe we don't really know if we are optimized for

806
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: optimal black hole of production. Maybe we are, which just

807
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: don't understand the universe well enough to say, like, no,

808
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: this is this is the best number of black holes.

809
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 1: If we had ten thousand more black holes, you know,

810
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: the universe wouldn't be sustainable, or those black holes wouldn't

811
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: be good enough to make other universes, do you know

812
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: what I mean? That's certainly a good point. We don't

813
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: know how to stimulate the whole history of the universe

814
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: and accurately predict the number of black holes, so these

815
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: simulations are approximations, and there's lots we don't understand about

816
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: the evolution of the universe, big deals about you know,

817
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: what is dark matter and how the universe is expanding

818
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: and why and when. So there's definitely a lot of uncertainty,

819
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: they're sure. And this also has consequences about the like

820
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: the faith of the universe, right, like maybe that means

821
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: that the universes don't implode eventually. Yeah, and this idea

822
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: is not Actually that new sort of been developing over

823
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 1: a few gades, and it was sort of more in

824
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: vogue when people thought that the universe was going to

825
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: end in a big crunch, when we thought that maybe

826
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: gravity was so powerful that it was going to bring

827
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: the whole universe back together into another singularity that like

828
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: inside black holes, you have this like cycling bounce theory

829
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: a singularity and then expanding space time like a big

830
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: bang and then come back to a singularity. Because people

831
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: like this idea that every universe starts with a singularity

832
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: and ends with a singularity that connects it to like

833
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: what's happening inside a black hole. But now we know

834
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: that the universe is less likely to do that because

835
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: we discovered twenty years ago that the universe is expanding

836
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: and that expansion is accelerating, so it seems like a

837
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: big crunch is less likely to be in our future,

838
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: so that takes a little bit of the shine off

839
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 1: of this theory. You know, more likely in the future

840
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: of our universe is not one big crunch, but as

841
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: we said earlier, lots and lots of very widely distributed

842
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: black holes, as each sort of local clump of gravitationally

843
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: dominated matter falls into a mega black hole which is

844
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: super separated from all the other clumps of matter which

845
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 1: is falling into their own black holes. So you end

846
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 1: up with like a universe with lots and lots of

847
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: black holes in it and nothing else. I see. You're saying,

848
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: like this new theory, but natural selection assumes kind of

849
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 1: a bouncy universe. But we are not seeing that the

850
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: universe is bouncing. We've seen that it's expanding forever. It's

851
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: expanding forever. Yeah, and we are going to end up

852
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: with more singularities in our future because of all these

853
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: black holes, but not like one meta singularity that pulls

854
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: it all together again. But that's not actually critical. That's

855
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: not a fatal flaw because you don't have to assume

856
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: that inside every black hole is a universe that's going

857
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: to bounce. You can just assume that you create a

858
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 1: new universe, and whatever happens inside the universe happens inside

859
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: that universe, even if it means creations of lots of

860
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: different black holes inside that black hole universe. So that's

861
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: not a fatal flaw, right right. What happens in a

862
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: black hole stays in the black hole. That's definitely true.

863
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: More concerning is that, you know, we don't understand what

864
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: the implications are for like black hole mergers. We see

865
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: black holes gobbling up each other, like fouring a mega

866
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: black hole as they combine, and that probably happened even

867
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: for things like the black hole the center of our galaxy,

868
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: because our galaxy is likely the product of the collision

869
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: of several galaxies, each of which had their own black hole.

870
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: So Sagittarius A at the center of our galaxy probably

871
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 1: is the result of several black holes. But if each

872
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: one had a universe inside of it, what happens when

873
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: they emerged the universes collide, you get some other crazy

874
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: thing happening. They would have different laws of physics inside

875
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: each black hole. So like, do you have some sort

876
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: of like how Senate Reconciliation Committee where you negotiate with

877
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 1: the new laws of physics are and we know that

878
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: always goes smoothly and perfectly. That's right. You know, black

879
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: holes default on their dead limit, et cetera. And so

880
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: that's not something that's understood. And again this is because

881
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 1: this came about before we understood how often that happened.

882
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: When LEGO turned on and we saw black hole collisions,

883
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: we discovered, Wow, black holes are colliding and merging all

884
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 1: the time. It's not rare. So it's sort of a

885
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: new thing to face for this theory. Right, Well, we

886
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: don't know what happens, but that's not necessarily an argument

887
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: against this idea, right, Like, maybe you can merge universes

888
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 1: that that are different, or maybe they annihilate each other

889
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: and they form a new universe, like you, you don't

890
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: know it yet, right, We just don't know. It's an

891
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: open question because we don't understand the mechanism for like

892
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: storing and changing these parameters. We don't understand what would

893
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: happen if two universes with different values of these parameters

894
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: came into contact somehow. And well, there's also the other

895
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: question of like you're sort of assuming that all of

896
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: these universes that are making more universes. Do you all

897
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: work with the same laws. We just can't explain the

898
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 1: parameters of those laws. But it assumes one set of

899
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: laws for all universes in this giant savannah exactly, and

900
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: we don't understand that structure at all. It's like saying, well,

901
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: all right, I'm explaining why the control panel is set

902
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: this way, but like, who built the control panel? Why

903
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: do you have this many parameters? Why are there twenty

904
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: six parameters and not one? Why have any parameters at all?

905
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: Can't you imagine other universes without parameters? So it doesn't

906
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 1: answer that deeper question. And that's what I find frustrating

907
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: about a lot of these explanations is that they don't

908
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: go all the way I want to go all the

909
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: way to explaining the universe down to know numbers. You

910
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: mean us a giant savannah full of infinite universes having

911
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: baby black holes. That's not hardcore enough for you, Like,

912
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: do you want to go more extreme than that? I mean,

913
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: it's extremely imaginative and it's evocative mentally, but it doesn't

914
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: really answer questions, you know, because it doesn't let you

915
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: grasp of those things and and ask deeper questions, you know,

916
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: about like this, like why are there all these parameters?

917
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: You know it's a limitation of the theory, but couldn't

918
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,240
Speaker 1: you also apply the same idea though, to this idea

919
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: of laws, like maybe when you make a new baby

920
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: black hole universe, the laws also changed a little bit,

921
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: not just the parameters, and so then you also have

922
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 1: natural selection of physical laws. All right, I'm gonna call

923
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 1: that the smoll en cham theory of the universe done.

924
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: Noble Prize. Here's my address. You win one black hole, sir,

925
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 1: I get half of a Nobel prize. I'll share with Sleep.

926
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: I've mentally at least more than before. I'll be happy

927
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: to share it with him. All right, that sounds like

928
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 1: a plan. All right, Well, that's the idea, and there's

929
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 1: something also about the timing of it that's complicated, right, Yeah,

930
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: It's hard to really think about the timing because you

931
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: need to think about like the framework in which this happens.

932
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 1: Like we're arguing that these universes would create more universes

933
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: with more black holes in them. But you know, if

934
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: you think about how long it takes our universe to

935
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: make black holes, it's like millions or billions of years.

936
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 1: We do see black holes having formed in the early universe,

937
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: like after a few hundred million years or maybe a

938
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: billion years, but that's kind of a long time. Imagine

939
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 1: you had other universes that very rapidly formed a smaller

940
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: number of black holes. They would then create their babies

941
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: when they were very very young, and so even if

942
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 1: they're not creating as many black holes per universe, they're

943
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: reproducing so quickly that they in the end there are

944
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: more of those universes than ones with more black holes

945
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: in them, just because they had babies sooner than everybody else. Yes,

946
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,720
Speaker 1: but you know that depends on this idea of like clocks,

947
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: Like are the clocks and universe really sink to the

948
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 1: clocks in that universe? When did this whole process start?

949
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: Is there really sort of like a timing for the

950
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,919
Speaker 1: meta universe. It's sort of fuzzy, right, because, as we've

951
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: talked about the at time sort of slows down as

952
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 1: your approach a black hole, right like when you bend

953
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: gravity that much, time works totally different. Are you Are

954
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: we saying that time works the same inside of the

955
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: black hole. We don't know what's going on inside a

956
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: black hole, right, And this theory would suggest that time

957
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: inside the universe, that space time is expanding inside that

958
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: universe instead of just being like twisted by the singularity.

959
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: But this is a question about like whether you have

960
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: some meta clock that's you know, is counting like how

961
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: long you've taken to create babies, and that like the

962
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,800
Speaker 1: clocks inside the universe are sort of somehow connected to

963
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: this concept of how many universes there are and how

964
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: long it's taken to make those universes. I think what

965
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: you're saying is that evolution is complicated, right, It's not

966
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 1: just about optimal solutions, like in and in the animal world,

967
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 1: you know, we're not necessarily the most the most perfect

968
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 1: animal out We're just happened to be the best animal

969
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 1: that seems to have survived the most, right, Like, like

970
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: there's still a question of why we have toes, Like

971
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: nobody knows why we have toes, but we're there. They're

972
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: there because you know, something needs to collect lint, I

973
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: guess or you know, the idea is that we're not

974
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: necessarily optimized. We just got here first. Yeah, we're the

975
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 1: product of our specific history and you know, and wild

976
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: biologists look to explain toes physicist look to explain theories

977
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: of everything, which are also toes. Yeah, there you go.

978
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: So are we Is this the pinky toe of the

979
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: universe or is this the big toe? Oh, it's definitely

980
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: it's the big toe. It's one megato. It's the meta too,

981
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: it's the alpha toe. All right. Well, I think the

982
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: main takeaway here is that we we don't know why

983
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: the universe is the way it is, Like, we have

984
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: really no idea, and so we're open to any crazy idea,

985
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,919
Speaker 1: even like giant savannahs full of competing universes. We really

986
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: are at the beginning of our exploration of all these

987
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: crazy ideas, at the point where we really should take

988
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: seriously concept that seem bonkers, that seem at first is

989
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: like what that's insane? It might actually make sense and

990
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 1: it might actually describe our reality. Yeah, And I think

991
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: it points to also how much there is still to

992
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: discover about the universe. Right like any kids listening or

993
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 1: any young aspiring physicists listening to this, or any old

994
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 1: help physicist to like who aspire to make a big

995
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: break there that you could sort of focus on these

996
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 1: big questions and there's still a lot to explain about

997
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: why things are the way they are. That's right, and

998
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: I hope it's the young physicists to figure it out

999
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: because I gotta go take a nap. But why do

1000
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 1: you have to take a nap, Daniel? Why do you

1001
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: have to take a nap now and not not a later?

1002
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:36,760
Speaker 1: Or why in your couch and not in your futon.

1003
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: There's a fundamental parameter of the universe, the number of

1004
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: naps per physicists. I see. It's the big end. Nobody

1005
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: understands it. And is it dimensionless or or do you

1006
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 1: sleep forever? Or is there a set amount of time

1007
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: that you are units of time that do you sleep for?

1008
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 1: I sleep in many dimensions? All right, Well, we hope

1009
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: you enjoyed that and made you think about why we

1010
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: are here and why we are in this universe, which

1011
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: seems pretty good. But who knows. Maybe it's not subot well,

1012
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 1: maybe we are in the pink toe of all the universites.

1013
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 1: Whatever universe it is, I like it. Thanks for joining us,

1014
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: see you next time. Thanks for listening, and remember that

1015
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge explained the universe is a production of

1016
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,479
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio or more podcast from my Heart Radio.

1017
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: Visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

1018
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. H