WEBVTT - Paths of Collapse Ft. Andrew 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.920 A zone media. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.280 Hello, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night. 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:11.680 I'm Andrew Sage and I run the YouTube channel Andrewism. 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:15.880 But this is it could happen here today. I'm carrying 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:21.560 on my discussion of everyone's favorite subject, collapse. I'm here, 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:27.520 of course with Garrison, and last time we spoke about 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:31.040 the what, why, and how of collapse, as well as 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.040 in many ways people respond when confronted with this crisis. 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:36.600 So if you're curious about that, you can listen to 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.400 the previous discussion. One thing I didn't touch on last 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:43.239 time was the various levels of awareness that people have 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:46.400 about collapse, because, as with most things in this life, 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.040 it exists on more of a spectrum than anything. We're 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:54.240 all on this learning journey, and some people are further along, 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:58.400 if you could even really relate it's that way than others. 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:04.200 Some discuss of collapse are informed by author Paul Shafferka's 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:09.160 Stages of Collapse. There are five stages in total, and 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.560 the fust stage is dead asleep, which is where you're 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.160 really just vibing. You know, you can see some issues 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:18.759 in the world here and there, but that could be fixed. Right. 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.200 All we had to do is organize a bit better, 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.399 change our behaviors, slightly, tweak the rules, and we'll be fine. 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:27.480 But then you move on to the next stage, which 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:31.800 is the awareness of one fundamental problem. Is when you realize, oh, 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.200 there's something structurally wrong, but you only see in one 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.880 part of that structural flow, so it seems everything is 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.280 not you know, cash money. You know, maybe you found 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:46.480 about the depths of systemic racism or imperialism, or overfission 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:51.840 or mass extinction or fracking, and you know, as one does, 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:53.640 you start to freak out a little bit. You know, 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.200 maybe you mobilize to bring some awareness of this issue, 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.040 just so people know that you know something is wrong, 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:03.000 let's fix it, and that one problem can even consume 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.160 you entirely. And then consuming all that knowledge about that 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:10.160 one problem, you keep learning, and if you really do 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.280 keep learning and are open to learn more and more 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:17.040 about the issue, eventually reach an awareness of many problems. 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:20.080 The next stage, the more you learn, the more you worry. 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:22.640 You take in all sorts of information and begin to 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:26.799 see how complex and multifaceted the world's problems are. Now 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:28.560 it's hard for you to even prioritize, which is so 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.480 need to be tell first, In fact, it's so overwhelmed 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.600 you do have be reluctant to acknowledge new problems because 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.680 you already have so much on your plate. Alas you 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.160 cannot ignore the other problems forever, not unless you want 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.799 to keep running in circles. So you get to the 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:47.240 stage of awareness of the interconnections between the many problems, 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:49.760 it starts to dawn on you that there are no 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:54.040 easy solutions. Shutting down factory farms mainly off millions and 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.360 leave perhaps hundreds of millions for the complete meal, or 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.960 efforts to raise the standard of living in the developing world. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.040 Industrialization in the footsteps of the developed world just might 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:08.160 accelerate the Earth's demise and profit a select few at 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.960 least you thinking on the systems level. Now beyond the 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:15.280 symptoms towards the source. Perhaps there is no one solution, 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.560 Perhaps the gravity of such a solution maybe too much 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:24.519 to beare So. Finally, at the last stage, you get 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:28.800 to awareness that the predicament encompasses all aspects of life, 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.520 so much so you might even pine after ignorance as 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.320 you realize that this series of problems, or rather this 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:40.480 all encompassing capital p predicament includes everything we do, how 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:42.960 we do, what we do, how we relate, and how 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.480 we affect the entire planet. The predicaments is so massive 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:48.240 you might even reach a point where you're just like, 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:52.520 there is no capital S solution to this capital P predicament, 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.560 no easy answer, no quick fix, and you can't do 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.560 it alone. And so now what now? In the last episode, 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.680 I would have spoken about a couple of different responses 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:09.000 that people have had to collapse, slumber, denial, apathy, preoccupation, 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:19.599 hedonism of weelment, blind hope, individual change, progress, worship, leader worship, apocalypse, worship, despair. 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.640 But as promised for this episode, I want to be 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:30.520 a bit more constructive in focus and so to answer 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:35.520 the question, really is there any way out? But before 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:37.800 I get to that garrison, do you think there are 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:42.640 any stages am I have missed in that progression of understanding? 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.280 Or what have you observed in your experience? 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.320 I mean, one thing I kind of will reiterate that 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.839 is this something that was talked about a lot when 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:57.440 Robert was putting together the second season of It could 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:01.200 happen here is trying to have yeah, like like like 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.960 looking at collapse as one singular moment and more as this, 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:11.960 like it's a more gauzy and more fuzzy slow crumbling 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:16.240 of things that we have grown to rely on. And 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.760 it sometimes you could like envision it eventually reaching to 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:23.719 some sort of tipping point, but other times the tipping 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.360 points never really ever reach. It's it's it's just it's 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:29.240 just this this forever kind of crumbling and then rebuilding, 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.359 and then crumbling and rebuilding, and you get to like 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:36.960 a ship a theseus situation where eventually, at one point 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.240 the thing is completely different from what it used to be, 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:41.440 but there was never like a full moment of quote 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.960 unquote collapse. It was just this this continual like crumbling 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:47.760 and then becoming into the next thing. 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:54.240 It kind of sounds similar to what John Michael Grea described, No, 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:58.800 not John Michael Grea, David Korwitz. He talks about this 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:04.240 idea of like oscillating decline. Yeah, Yeah, these these recessions, 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.320 these declines, and you have a couple of peaks when 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.039 things have to climb up a little bit and then 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.480 and then the overall picture is like a downward trend, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.719 but there are some like brief aspects of recovery. 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.000 Yeah, And that's definitely a mode that I think about 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.200 a lot. You know, a lot of people are worried 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.720 of like some like some event triggering a much kind 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:28.880 of larger scale collapse, and I think, uh, it's good 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.720 too to focus on all of the smaller, the smaller 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.680 crumbling that's just always happening all of the time, no 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:35.800 matter where you live. 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.120 So I mean my experience is pretty similar. I think 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.839 one of the first issues that I became like fundamentally 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:48.440 aware of was climate change. Sure of course. I mean 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:50.760 you crack open anyone of those like I don't know 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:52.400 if you ever got one of those big books of 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.280 knowledge as a child, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had. I 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.040 had a few kind of plastic key pages. Yeah, so 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:01.760 they have all these big pictures. Yeah, so I remember 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.360 seeing those in one of those books, like this huge 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:11.720 like mountain of trash and seeing like this this floating 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.640 garbage patch in the ocean, and I was just like wow. 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:16.880 And then later on, so the first thing wasn't even 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:19.880 climate change, it was pollution. And then later on I 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.040 started doing about climate change, and then that really became 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.560 like my nature thing. And then later on I as 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:28.200 I got older and I learned about learned history and 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:31.240 that sort of thing, I came to economics and all 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.000 that stuff. I came to realize that just how big 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:37.840 the situation was. And now I'm here. So, as I 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:42.880 said in the previous episode, we really don't need blind hope, 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:47.280 and I should be upondly clear, we definitely don't need 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:53.440 hopeless despair. It's a little rhyme there. So how do 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:59.600 we respond to this predicament? The short answer is that 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:04.240 I don't know. The long answer is this whole podcast episode. 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.120 I mean, I could give some platitudes. You know, we 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:13.480 need sobriety, clarity, lucidity. I mean. Paul Shafuka points out 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.720 in his article that those in stage five awareness who 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:21.600 see that the predictament encompasses all aspects of life look 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:24.680 to one of two paths. And I mean I've since 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.560 adapted into Britain and remixed the two paths, so not 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:29.720 one to one with what he had in mind, but 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.080 you should get the gist. The first path of response 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:35.760 to the predictaments of collapse is the inner path of 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:40.079 self healing. It's a manifestation of that fake can the 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.880 quote be the change you want to see in the world, 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:47.960 sort of retreating into oneself, taking deep and poosonal developing 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:51.320 your self awareness. I mean, some people take this to 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.199 mean some sort of hyper individual thing, and it low 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:57.880 key is if you tilt and twist your head slightly, 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:01.000 you can maybe see it in a different line. I 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.160 don't think it has to mean becoming a monk or 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:06.520 an aesthetic. I don't think it means denying systems or 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.160 ignoring the painful truth. I think it involves taken in 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:13.680 the gravity of what we're dealing with, such a grand 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:19.320 scale issue, and putting it in a personal context, unabstracting 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:24.000 it and understanding it through a more managical lens. I'm 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:29.920 not one to fall back on evolutionary terminism or anything 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.680 like that, but I do think often about how we 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:38.199 kind of weren't meant to be processing this entire planet, 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:41.160 this entire population, you know. I think we're very good 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:45.280 at dealing with immediate problems, very good at looking at 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.760 situations that are before us, that are directly impacting us, 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.400 and looking at how we can solve that. And of course, 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:57.880 no local solution necessarily is going to by itself solve 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:06.440 a global cris but medley of local solutions can. But 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.000 we're not even talking here with this inner path of 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:13.520 local solutions. Yet we're talking even at the smaller scale, 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:17.240 in the local, at the base unit of society, which 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:21.319 is the self. So you might continue pursuing knowledge of 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:25.640 the issues, start developing your practical skills and people's skills, 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.840 trying to minimalize your lifestyle and preparation for the economic 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.720 and social shocks of collapse. Perhaps seeking to settle somewhere 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:36.640 you've determined it's best suited to whether the coming storms, 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.920 which I believe I saw a video like some years 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:44.440 ago where this guy was saying the Midwest might be 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.520 the best place environmentally to settle. I don't know if 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.079 you'll cover that in the first or second season. That 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:52.199 could happen, yet. 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.080 I mean there was something definitely we were looking into 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.280 during some of the research phases of a lot of 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.839 the agriculture that is currently based in the south of 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.280 the United States. Every every every decad is going to 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.400 start moving up and up and up, and particularly like 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:12.840 Canada is going to enter a very large agricultural economic boom. 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:16.760 That process has already started. But yes, there's gonna like 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:22.720 be this this slow rising level of like industrial farming, 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:26.160 which first of all, isn't isn't actually great for the 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.280 land itself. Like once all of the land that's abandoned 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.080 in the Southern States, like after it's been tapped for 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.800 so long, it's really just like dust, like it's it's 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.440 not actually useful dirt anymore. But it's all of that 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.720 stuff's going to start moving farther and farther north as 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.760 the as the conditions for growth start changing. And I 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:47.480 mean it's the same thing for a lot of a 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.760 lot of things that are grown and like more like 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:55.560 jungly forest mountain areas where every year, like coffee and chocolate, 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.480 they have to start they have they have to start 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:02.360 moving the crops or they're up the mountain. And again 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.000 that's that doesn't that's obviously not a great long term 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.840 solution because the mountain is only so high that it 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.040 costs and it costs a lot of money to constantly 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.520 be moving your crops higher and higher up a mountain. Indeed, 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.640 but that is the sort of like agricultural and like 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.640 economic drive. It's going to start getting more and more 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:27.480 common to supply the amount of food that Americans are 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.080 used to eating. And it won't like in the case 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:35.000 of coffee, like it's not like actual coffee beans are 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.760 not going to be as common as they were today 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:39.560 or twenty years ago. It's going to become more of 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.000 like a higher priced luxury item. And I'm sure, I'm 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.520 sure Americans will get their caffeine fixed some other way. 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.679 But yeah, it's like that those those sorts of changes 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.080 are going to become more and more and more commonplace. 0:12:52.880 --> 0:13:07.400 Yeah, yeah, for sure. And this is why you know, 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:15.400 anarchists get I think unfairly labeled like past like excessively 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.440 a care area or maybe parochial in their focus. But 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.640 I think that as we talk about the degradation of soils, 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:30.360 we talk about the failures in the long term of 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:36.640 monocultural large scale farm and the only way that we're 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.079 really going to see that sort of land restored again 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:44.920 is through the sort of acro forestry, pulmaculture, you know, 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:52.640 small scale practices that involve rebuilding that relationship between the 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:57.520 people and the land itself. Regardden outside of the US, 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.400 I don't know what my game plan would be. The 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.920 dry seasons are certainly dry, and I think last year 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:10.280 actually was one of our driest wet seasons, So I 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:15.280 don't really plan on leaving, but I do think about 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.520 I do find myself thinking about, Okay, where am I 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:22.600 gonna like, but where am I gonna settle? You know, 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:27.960 like where am I gonna be able to like safeguard 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:34.960 myself and stay connected with people and live? You know. 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:39.240 So in a sense, I am on that inner path, 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.000 educating myself as much as possible, trying to develop my 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.240 practical skills, focusing on what I could do as an 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:51.320 individual to make changes in my own life and partially 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:56.280 in my surroundings in a way that is manageables. Do 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.520 you see yourself in this path as well? Though? 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.520 I I'm not sure I tried to not. I I 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.640 spent a lot of time thinking about the future, I guess, 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.000 but I try not to lock myself into any any 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:13.040 particular pathway. I don't know, like I've already started to 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:17.920 move around the US, uh, leaving, leaving the places where 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.480 I've kind of grown up for the majority of my 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.320 life that are actually decently suited for for some kind 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:30.960 of climate collapse. But yeah, I I I don't know. 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.680 I have I have risk. I have some form of 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:38.200 hesitancy to like seed territory or just like like right 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.680 off places as just being like not worth it, like 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.320 especially especially like the south, the American southeast, just like 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.320 that there's kind of a there's kind of a nocean, 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.320 just to like write off large swaths of areas, whether 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:55.560 like agriculturally, like climate wise, or like even like politically 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:57.560 being like, oh, this is just where all of the 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:59.520 fascists are going to live, and like that's not that's 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.440 not true. This this has this area of the country 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.720 is actually is one of the most diverse parts of 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:06.600 the country, and to write it off all is like 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:11.000 just like Republican Land is. I think it is grossly misguided. 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:12.560 Absolutely. 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:15.680 On the other hand, if things get really really bad, 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:17.920 I'm also going to hold onto my Canadian passport and 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:21.480 just go and have that, have that as a backup option, 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:24.600 just to just to go up north into uh into 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.440 the snowy desolate of northern Alberta. 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.160 So I mean I kind of a shove. Yeah, if 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:34.840 Bush comes to shove, Antarctica is the final. 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.560 Frontier, right, So like I I I always kind of 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.640 I'm I have that backup option, which is easier than 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.440 a lot of people. But it's it's it's it's something, 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.960 it's something I try not to like. I don't like 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:48.520 relying on that kind of notion. 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.840 I feel you, I feel you, yeah, And I mean 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:54.760 that's part of why I don't see this in a 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.800 path is fully satisfactory to me. Yeah, even though I 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.560 feel it's a path of unconsciously choose due to some 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.159 of the challenges I faced on the outer path. But 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.359 still what clicks with me more is the outer path. 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:12.119 I've also called it balanced realism, which is, you know, 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:14.800 hard to balance because a lot of people who confuse 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:20.280 realism with pessimism, you know, you just see everything being awful, 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.040 as I'm a realist, you know. But truthfully, I think 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.520 taking the outer path of balance realism means shaken off 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:31.040 the burdens and blinders are both pessimism and optimism and 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:36.200 alarmism and denihialism and fatalism and hedonism and all these 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:42.320 other setbacks and obstacles, all the others except aism trying 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:51.480 to keep watching andwism. Please, but you're really loosening yourself 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.359 from your own hopes and fears. Really, I think the 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:59.439 way I try to see it is I have no idea. 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:05.800 No one can really know what outcome there will be. 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.639 You know, up to now, I haven't met a profit. 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:13.159 I have meta sayer, I have meta fortune teller. I 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.840 don't think any of us really know what the outcome 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:19.160 will be, and there's so many factors that we can't 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.960 even calculate and take into account. Yeah, I mean, for 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.960 all we know, I mean, it will be very disruptive 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:29.280 of our reality, right, And personally, I'm not really a 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:37.040 believer in like there be an interspeller alien species, but 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.040 you know, imagine just out of the blue, like on 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:47.200 a random Thursday afternoon, there was an actual alien invasion. 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.400 I don't think any of us could really predict that. 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:52.320 Of course, there are things that we do have the 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:54.639 be aible to predict and work with and stuff like that, 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.080 but really, of course that's an ex saggary to the example. 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.560 But I want to be able to wrack, organize, and 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:04.600 accept any number of possible outcomes in the face of 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.080 such a grand predicament. I think maintaining realism is difficult, 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:10.520 especially with so much information too have been around in 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:12.840 the ether, and you don't know what's true and what's not. 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.480 But I think it's necessary. You know, you agitate, your fight, 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:20.320 your build for the best, but you also prepare and 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.320 defend for the worst. Prefecide by the way on optimism, 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:29.480 I see really two sides of collapse optimism, both I 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:34.080 think are well placed, but both unfortunately misled. There's the 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:37.879 optimism that collapse absolutely will not take place, which I 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.400 think is a sort of optimism that doesn't really quite 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:45.280 understand where collapse, what forms collapse can take. And then 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.000 it's a sort of optimism that collapse will take place, 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.399 but will overcome it. I mean, the house of collapse 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.520 might not line up fully with our predictions, but there 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.359 is a very clear trajectory that we are on. The 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.720 idea that collapse is just not in the at all 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:05.520 really feels like wishful thinking. Humanity I don't think has 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:08.880 the plot armor that we tend to think it does. 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.760 And that lack of plot armor also means that there's 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.239 really no guarantee that we will overcome collapse if it 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.440 does occur. There are no show outcomes, to be sure, 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.280 But that doesn't mean to be destined to come out 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:25.439 of this unscathed. But what do you think of optimism 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:32.480 considering what you do for work? 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:37.280 I don't know. I honestly don't think about optimism very much. 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.640 I see a lot of like bad stuff, like every 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:42.440 day as a part of my job. I think about 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:47.000 a lot of like grim stuff, I suppose, but it's 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:50.240 honestly not something I think about it. I think it's 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:52.800 a little bit of its own bubble. I think there's 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:57.760 a utility for having hope but not having a sense 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.800 of just like static optim I think. I think hope 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:03.639 is a is a is a useful thing to have 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:07.159 in your brain, but but not not have it be 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:11.720 as like this just like umbrella that you apply to 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:13.560 every single aspect of your life, and the way like 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:17.000 optimism is but in terms of like like when you're 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.000 mentioning like the alien thing. I think one way that 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:23.359 people do think about collapse trying to cope with it 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:25.280 a lot is like it's kind of some form of 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:28.560 like disx makana, like like this this something will happen, 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.879 whether that's some other like catastrophic event or like apocalyptic event, 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:37.640 or it's like some new found scientific advancement that one 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:41.240 day will pop into existence and then we'll solve all 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.680 of these problems. I think both of those are kind 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.119 of a form of a Dix machana, and both of 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.280 those are actually ways of coping, even though one is 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:51.480 more apocalyptic and one's more utopian. 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:54.199 I thought you were talking about the video game series, 0:21:54.240 --> 0:22:00.520 you know, no, like just like an oh yeah, you know, 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:01.720 an ex cybern ethics and. 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:06.000 Yeah, sure, sure, we like that kind of that kind 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:08.600 of is its own form of dis x makta in 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:12.840 terms of this, this this thing entering from backstage that 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:15.919 now solves all of these problems we have in the 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.439 story of the world. But I mean that is I 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:20.199 think that's that's the thing that I think a lot 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.399 of people try to find some so it kind of 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:25.800 allows you to not be in denial about the current 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:30.800 predicament but still envision a future that is pretty similar 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:33.760 to what we currently have, just with this like magical 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:38.160 invention or this or this like or this like apocalyptic 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:42.600 event that forces people to like actually solve some some 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:43.760 degree of problems. 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:44.280 You know. 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:45.639 It's kind of it's kind of like the thing in 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.119 Alan Moore's Watchman, being like if there was a giant squid, 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:52.280 then the whole world would team up together solve the problem, 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:55.160 And I don't know, that seems a little bit less likely. 0:22:55.800 --> 0:23:00.000 Yeah, Unfortunately, climate collapse, ecological collapse is not a giant squid, 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:02.119 and there is no Doctor Manhattan. 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:06.920 Yeah, and even even after COVID, Right, you have this massive, 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:09.680 like world threatening event, and it's it's kind of the 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:13.600 perfect example of it's like a you know, a version 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.320 of the giant squid, and that did not lead to 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:19.800 the whole world working together to solve this big problem. 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:21.960 I mean, to be fair, it was like a giant 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:26.960 invisible squid. Yeah, it was. To be fair as well, 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:33.119 the giant invisible squid is still there and like regularly 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:36.159 claiming lives. We kind of just go up all with 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:38.399 all of these kind of ignoring It's like, oh, you know, 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:45.280 that goes Fred, you know, snatched up by the giant squid. 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:48.359 I'm sure in the Watchmen world there would be a 0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:52.320 great many of like squid deniers, of people who are like, no, 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:55.120 the squid was never real. The squid was all fake. 0:23:55.160 --> 0:23:58.000 That was all fake in New York City, it was. 0:23:57.680 --> 0:23:58.760 It wasn't real. 0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:01.240 Like that. Long said, there has no opinion that everybody 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:03.600 in the world will agree with. You know, like, if 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:06.360 you were to say, for example, that all humans need 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:12.280 food to live, there's gonna be a contrarian who's gonna 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:16.200 tell you, actually, I survive on photosynthesis. I'm a breathetarian, 0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:21.360 you know, so there's there is no uncontroversial tea because 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:23.640 they will. I think there will be a deniers no 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:37.840 matter what. You know, as you were talking about optimism 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:40.320 and sort of the dark things you're dealing with, it 0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:43.840 reminded me of something that that shook me. Yesterday. I 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:50.480 was watching shown on YouTube Sean's video on Palestine, and 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:53.560