1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: A zone media. 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 2: Hello, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night. 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Sage and I run the YouTube channel Andrewism. 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: But this is it could happen here today. I'm carrying 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 2: on my discussion of everyone's favorite subject, collapse. I'm here, 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: of course with Garrison, and last time we spoke about 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 2: the what, why, and how of collapse, as well as 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: in many ways people respond when confronted with this crisis. 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 2: So if you're curious about that, you can listen to 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: the previous discussion. One thing I didn't touch on last 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 2: time was the various levels of awareness that people have 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: about collapse, because, as with most things in this life, 13 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 2: it exists on more of a spectrum than anything. We're 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 2: all on this learning journey, and some people are further along, 15 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 2: if you could even really relate it's that way than others. 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: Some discuss of collapse are informed by author Paul Shafferka's 17 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: Stages of Collapse. There are five stages in total, and 18 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: the fust stage is dead asleep, which is where you're 19 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 2: really just vibing. You know, you can see some issues 20 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 2: in the world here and there, but that could be fixed. Right. 21 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 2: All we had to do is organize a bit better, 22 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 2: change our behaviors, slightly, tweak the rules, and we'll be fine. 23 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 2: But then you move on to the next stage, which 24 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 2: is the awareness of one fundamental problem. Is when you realize, oh, 25 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: there's something structurally wrong, but you only see in one 26 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: part of that structural flow, so it seems everything is 27 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: not you know, cash money. You know, maybe you found 28 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 2: about the depths of systemic racism or imperialism, or overfission 29 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: or mass extinction or fracking, and you know, as one does, 30 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 2: you start to freak out a little bit. You know, 31 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: maybe you mobilize to bring some awareness of this issue, 32 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: just so people know that you know something is wrong, 33 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: let's fix it, and that one problem can even consume 34 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: you entirely. And then consuming all that knowledge about that 35 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 2: one problem, you keep learning, and if you really do 36 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: keep learning and are open to learn more and more 37 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: about the issue, eventually reach an awareness of many problems. 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 2: The next stage, the more you learn, the more you worry. 39 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: You take in all sorts of information and begin to 40 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 2: see how complex and multifaceted the world's problems are. Now 41 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: it's hard for you to even prioritize, which is so 42 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: need to be tell first, In fact, it's so overwhelmed 43 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: you do have be reluctant to acknowledge new problems because 44 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: you already have so much on your plate. Alas you 45 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: cannot ignore the other problems forever, not unless you want 46 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 2: to keep running in circles. So you get to the 47 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 2: stage of awareness of the interconnections between the many problems, 48 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: it starts to dawn on you that there are no 49 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: easy solutions. Shutting down factory farms mainly off millions and 50 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: leave perhaps hundreds of millions for the complete meal, or 51 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: efforts to raise the standard of living in the developing world. 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: Industrialization in the footsteps of the developed world just might 53 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: accelerate the Earth's demise and profit a select few at 54 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: least you thinking on the systems level. Now beyond the 55 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 2: symptoms towards the source. Perhaps there is no one solution, 56 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: Perhaps the gravity of such a solution maybe too much 57 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 2: to beare So. Finally, at the last stage, you get 58 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 2: to awareness that the predicament encompasses all aspects of life, 59 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 2: so much so you might even pine after ignorance as 60 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: you realize that this series of problems, or rather this 61 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: all encompassing capital p predicament includes everything we do, how 62 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: we do, what we do, how we relate, and how 63 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: we affect the entire planet. The predicaments is so massive 64 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: you might even reach a point where you're just like, 65 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 2: there is no capital S solution to this capital P predicament, 66 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: no easy answer, no quick fix, and you can't do 67 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: it alone. And so now what now? In the last episode, 68 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: I would have spoken about a couple of different responses 69 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: that people have had to collapse, slumber, denial, apathy, preoccupation, 70 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 2: hedonism of weelment, blind hope, individual change, progress, worship, leader worship, apocalypse, worship, despair. 71 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 2: But as promised for this episode, I want to be 72 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: a bit more constructive in focus and so to answer 73 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 2: the question, really is there any way out? But before 74 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: I get to that garrison, do you think there are 75 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: any stages am I have missed in that progression of understanding? 76 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 2: Or what have you observed in your experience? 77 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 3: I mean, one thing I kind of will reiterate that 78 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 3: is this something that was talked about a lot when 79 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 3: Robert was putting together the second season of It could 80 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 3: happen here is trying to have yeah, like like like 81 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 3: looking at collapse as one singular moment and more as this, 82 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 3: like it's a more gauzy and more fuzzy slow crumbling 83 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 3: of things that we have grown to rely on. And 84 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 3: it sometimes you could like envision it eventually reaching to 85 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 3: some sort of tipping point, but other times the tipping 86 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 3: points never really ever reach. It's it's it's just it's 87 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 3: just this this forever kind of crumbling and then rebuilding, 88 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 3: and then crumbling and rebuilding, and you get to like 89 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 3: a ship a theseus situation where eventually, at one point 90 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 3: the thing is completely different from what it used to be, 91 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: but there was never like a full moment of quote 92 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 3: unquote collapse. It was just this this continual like crumbling 93 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 3: and then becoming into the next thing. 94 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 2: It kind of sounds similar to what John Michael Grea described, No, 95 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: not John Michael Grea, David Korwitz. He talks about this 96 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 2: idea of like oscillating decline. Yeah, Yeah, these these recessions, 97 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: these declines, and you have a couple of peaks when 98 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 2: things have to climb up a little bit and then 99 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 2: and then the overall picture is like a downward trend, 100 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 2: but there are some like brief aspects of recovery. 101 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's definitely a mode that I think about 102 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 3: a lot. You know, a lot of people are worried 103 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 3: of like some like some event triggering a much kind 104 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 3: of larger scale collapse, and I think, uh, it's good 105 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 3: too to focus on all of the smaller, the smaller 106 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 3: crumbling that's just always happening all of the time, no 107 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 3: matter where you live. 108 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: So I mean my experience is pretty similar. I think 109 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 2: one of the first issues that I became like fundamentally 110 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: aware of was climate change. Sure of course. I mean 111 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: you crack open anyone of those like I don't know 112 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 2: if you ever got one of those big books of 113 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 2: knowledge as a child, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had. I 114 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 2: had a few kind of plastic key pages. Yeah, so 115 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: they have all these big pictures. Yeah, so I remember 116 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 2: seeing those in one of those books, like this huge 117 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: like mountain of trash and seeing like this this floating 118 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 2: garbage patch in the ocean, and I was just like wow. 119 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: And then later on, so the first thing wasn't even 120 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: climate change, it was pollution. And then later on I 121 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: started doing about climate change, and then that really became 122 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: like my nature thing. And then later on I as 123 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: I got older and I learned about learned history and 124 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: that sort of thing, I came to economics and all 125 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: that stuff. I came to realize that just how big 126 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: the situation was. And now I'm here. So, as I 127 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: said in the previous episode, we really don't need blind hope, 128 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: and I should be upondly clear, we definitely don't need 129 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: hopeless despair. It's a little rhyme there. So how do 130 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 2: we respond to this predicament? The short answer is that 131 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: I don't know. The long answer is this whole podcast episode. 132 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I could give some platitudes. You know, we 133 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: need sobriety, clarity, lucidity. I mean. Paul Shafuka points out 134 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 2: in his article that those in stage five awareness who 135 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: see that the predictament encompasses all aspects of life look 136 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: to one of two paths. And I mean I've since 137 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: adapted into Britain and remixed the two paths, so not 138 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: one to one with what he had in mind, but 139 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: you should get the gist. The first path of response 140 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: to the predictaments of collapse is the inner path of 141 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 2: self healing. It's a manifestation of that fake can the 142 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: quote be the change you want to see in the world, 143 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 2: sort of retreating into oneself, taking deep and poosonal developing 144 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 2: your self awareness. I mean, some people take this to 145 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 2: mean some sort of hyper individual thing, and it low 146 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: key is if you tilt and twist your head slightly, 147 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 2: you can maybe see it in a different line. I 148 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: don't think it has to mean becoming a monk or 149 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: an aesthetic. I don't think it means denying systems or 150 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: ignoring the painful truth. I think it involves taken in 151 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: the gravity of what we're dealing with, such a grand 152 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 2: scale issue, and putting it in a personal context, unabstracting 153 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: it and understanding it through a more managical lens. I'm 154 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: not one to fall back on evolutionary terminism or anything 155 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 2: like that, but I do think often about how we 156 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 2: kind of weren't meant to be processing this entire planet, 157 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: this entire population, you know. I think we're very good 158 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 2: at dealing with immediate problems, very good at looking at 159 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: situations that are before us, that are directly impacting us, 160 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: and looking at how we can solve that. And of course, 161 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: no local solution necessarily is going to by itself solve 162 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 2: a global cris but medley of local solutions can. But 163 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: we're not even talking here with this inner path of 164 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: local solutions. Yet we're talking even at the smaller scale, 165 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: in the local, at the base unit of society, which 166 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 2: is the self. So you might continue pursuing knowledge of 167 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: the issues, start developing your practical skills and people's skills, 168 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: trying to minimalize your lifestyle and preparation for the economic 169 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: and social shocks of collapse. Perhaps seeking to settle somewhere 170 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: you've determined it's best suited to whether the coming storms, 171 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: which I believe I saw a video like some years 172 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 2: ago where this guy was saying the Midwest might be 173 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: the best place environmentally to settle. I don't know if 174 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 2: you'll cover that in the first or second season. That 175 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 2: could happen, yet. 176 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 3: I mean there was something definitely we were looking into 177 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 3: during some of the research phases of a lot of 178 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 3: the agriculture that is currently based in the south of 179 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 3: the United States. Every every every decad is going to 180 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 3: start moving up and up and up, and particularly like 181 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 3: Canada is going to enter a very large agricultural economic boom. 182 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 3: That process has already started. But yes, there's gonna like 183 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 3: be this this slow rising level of like industrial farming, 184 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 3: which first of all, isn't isn't actually great for the 185 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 3: land itself. Like once all of the land that's abandoned 186 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 3: in the Southern States, like after it's been tapped for 187 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 3: so long, it's really just like dust, like it's it's 188 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 3: not actually useful dirt anymore. But it's all of that 189 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 3: stuff's going to start moving farther and farther north as 190 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 3: the as the conditions for growth start changing. And I 191 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 3: mean it's the same thing for a lot of a 192 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 3: lot of things that are grown and like more like 193 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 3: jungly forest mountain areas where every year, like coffee and chocolate, 194 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 3: they have to start they have they have to start 195 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: moving the crops or they're up the mountain. And again 196 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 3: that's that doesn't that's obviously not a great long term 197 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 3: solution because the mountain is only so high that it 198 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 3: costs and it costs a lot of money to constantly 199 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 3: be moving your crops higher and higher up a mountain. Indeed, 200 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 3: but that is the sort of like agricultural and like 201 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 3: economic drive. It's going to start getting more and more 202 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 3: common to supply the amount of food that Americans are 203 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 3: used to eating. And it won't like in the case 204 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 3: of coffee, like it's not like actual coffee beans are 205 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 3: not going to be as common as they were today 206 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 3: or twenty years ago. It's going to become more of 207 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 3: like a higher priced luxury item. And I'm sure, I'm 208 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 3: sure Americans will get their caffeine fixed some other way. 209 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 3: But yeah, it's like that those those sorts of changes 210 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 3: are going to become more and more and more commonplace. 211 00:12:52,880 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And this is why you know, 212 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: anarchists get I think unfairly labeled like past like excessively 213 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 2: a care area or maybe parochial in their focus. But 214 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: I think that as we talk about the degradation of soils, 215 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 2: we talk about the failures in the long term of 216 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: monocultural large scale farm and the only way that we're 217 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 2: really going to see that sort of land restored again 218 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: is through the sort of acro forestry, pulmaculture, you know, 219 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: small scale practices that involve rebuilding that relationship between the 220 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: people and the land itself. Regardden outside of the US, 221 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: I don't know what my game plan would be. The 222 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: dry seasons are certainly dry, and I think last year 223 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 2: actually was one of our driest wet seasons, So I 224 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: don't really plan on leaving, but I do think about 225 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: I do find myself thinking about, Okay, where am I 226 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: gonna like, but where am I gonna settle? You know, 227 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: like where am I gonna be able to like safeguard 228 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 2: myself and stay connected with people and live? You know. 229 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 2: So in a sense, I am on that inner path, 230 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 2: educating myself as much as possible, trying to develop my 231 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: practical skills, focusing on what I could do as an 232 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: individual to make changes in my own life and partially 233 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 2: in my surroundings in a way that is manageables. Do 234 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: you see yourself in this path as well? Though? 235 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: I I'm not sure I tried to not. I I 236 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 3: spent a lot of time thinking about the future, I guess, 237 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 3: but I try not to lock myself into any any 238 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: particular pathway. I don't know, like I've already started to 239 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 3: move around the US, uh, leaving, leaving the places where 240 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 3: I've kind of grown up for the majority of my 241 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 3: life that are actually decently suited for for some kind 242 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 3: of climate collapse. But yeah, I I I don't know. 243 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 3: I have I have risk. I have some form of 244 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 3: hesitancy to like seed territory or just like like right 245 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 3: off places as just being like not worth it, like 246 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 3: especially especially like the south, the American southeast, just like 247 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 3: that there's kind of a there's kind of a nocean, 248 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 3: just to like write off large swaths of areas, whether 249 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 3: like agriculturally, like climate wise, or like even like politically 250 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 3: being like, oh, this is just where all of the 251 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 3: fascists are going to live, and like that's not that's 252 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 3: not true. This this has this area of the country 253 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 3: is actually is one of the most diverse parts of 254 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 3: the country, and to write it off all is like 255 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 3: just like Republican Land is. I think it is grossly misguided. 256 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 257 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 3: On the other hand, if things get really really bad, 258 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 3: I'm also going to hold onto my Canadian passport and 259 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 3: just go and have that, have that as a backup option, 260 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 3: just to just to go up north into uh into 261 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: the snowy desolate of northern Alberta. 262 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: So I mean I kind of a shove. Yeah, if 263 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 2: Bush comes to shove, Antarctica is the final. 264 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 3: Frontier, right, So like I I I always kind of 265 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 3: I'm I have that backup option, which is easier than 266 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 3: a lot of people. But it's it's it's it's something, 267 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 3: it's something I try not to like. I don't like 268 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 3: relying on that kind of notion. 269 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 2: I feel you, I feel you, yeah, And I mean 270 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 2: that's part of why I don't see this in a 271 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 2: path is fully satisfactory to me. Yeah, even though I 272 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 2: feel it's a path of unconsciously choose due to some 273 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 2: of the challenges I faced on the outer path. But 274 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 2: still what clicks with me more is the outer path. 275 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 2: I've also called it balanced realism, which is, you know, 276 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 2: hard to balance because a lot of people who confuse 277 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 2: realism with pessimism, you know, you just see everything being awful, 278 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 2: as I'm a realist, you know. But truthfully, I think 279 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 2: taking the outer path of balance realism means shaken off 280 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: the burdens and blinders are both pessimism and optimism and 281 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 2: alarmism and denihialism and fatalism and hedonism and all these 282 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 2: other setbacks and obstacles, all the others except aism trying 283 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 2: to keep watching andwism. Please, but you're really loosening yourself 284 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 2: from your own hopes and fears. Really, I think the 285 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 2: way I try to see it is I have no idea. 286 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: No one can really know what outcome there will be. 287 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 2: You know, up to now, I haven't met a profit. 288 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 2: I have meta sayer, I have meta fortune teller. I 289 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 2: don't think any of us really know what the outcome 290 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 2: will be, and there's so many factors that we can't 291 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 2: even calculate and take into account. Yeah, I mean, for 292 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 2: all we know, I mean, it will be very disruptive 293 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: of our reality, right, And personally, I'm not really a 294 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: believer in like there be an interspeller alien species, but 295 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 2: you know, imagine just out of the blue, like on 296 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 2: a random Thursday afternoon, there was an actual alien invasion. 297 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 2: I don't think any of us could really predict that. 298 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: Of course, there are things that we do have the 299 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 2: be aible to predict and work with and stuff like that, 300 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: but really, of course that's an ex saggary to the example. 301 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: But I want to be able to wrack, organize, and 302 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: accept any number of possible outcomes in the face of 303 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 2: such a grand predicament. I think maintaining realism is difficult, 304 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: especially with so much information too have been around in 305 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: the ether, and you don't know what's true and what's not. 306 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 2: But I think it's necessary. You know, you agitate, your fight, 307 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 2: your build for the best, but you also prepare and 308 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 2: defend for the worst. Prefecide by the way on optimism, 309 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 2: I see really two sides of collapse optimism, both I 310 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 2: think are well placed, but both unfortunately misled. There's the 311 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 2: optimism that collapse absolutely will not take place, which I 312 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 2: think is a sort of optimism that doesn't really quite 313 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: understand where collapse, what forms collapse can take. And then 314 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 2: it's a sort of optimism that collapse will take place, 315 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 2: but will overcome it. I mean, the house of collapse 316 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: might not line up fully with our predictions, but there 317 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 2: is a very clear trajectory that we are on. The 318 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 2: idea that collapse is just not in the at all 319 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 2: really feels like wishful thinking. Humanity I don't think has 320 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 2: the plot armor that we tend to think it does. 321 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: And that lack of plot armor also means that there's 322 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,239 Speaker 2: really no guarantee that we will overcome collapse if it 323 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 2: does occur. There are no show outcomes, to be sure, 324 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean to be destined to come out 325 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 2: of this unscathed. But what do you think of optimism 326 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: considering what you do for work? 327 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 3: I don't know. I honestly don't think about optimism very much. 328 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 3: I see a lot of like bad stuff, like every 329 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 3: day as a part of my job. I think about 330 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 3: a lot of like grim stuff, I suppose, but it's 331 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 3: honestly not something I think about it. I think it's 332 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 3: a little bit of its own bubble. I think there's 333 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 3: a utility for having hope but not having a sense 334 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 3: of just like static optim I think. I think hope 335 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 3: is a is a is a useful thing to have 336 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 3: in your brain, but but not not have it be 337 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 3: as like this just like umbrella that you apply to 338 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 3: every single aspect of your life, and the way like 339 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 3: optimism is but in terms of like like when you're 340 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 3: mentioning like the alien thing. I think one way that 341 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 3: people do think about collapse trying to cope with it 342 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: a lot is like it's kind of some form of 343 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 3: like disx makana, like like this this something will happen, 344 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 3: whether that's some other like catastrophic event or like apocalyptic event, 345 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 3: or it's like some new found scientific advancement that one 346 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 3: day will pop into existence and then we'll solve all 347 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 3: of these problems. I think both of those are kind 348 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 3: of a form of a Dix machana, and both of 349 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 3: those are actually ways of coping, even though one is 350 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 3: more apocalyptic and one's more utopian. 351 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 2: I thought you were talking about the video game series, 352 00:21:54,240 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: you know, no, like just like an oh yeah, you know, 353 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 2: an ex cybern ethics and. 354 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, sure, we like that kind of that kind 355 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 3: of is its own form of dis x makta in 356 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 3: terms of this, this this thing entering from backstage that 357 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 3: now solves all of these problems we have in the 358 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 3: story of the world. But I mean that is I 359 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 3: think that's that's the thing that I think a lot 360 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 3: of people try to find some so it kind of 361 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 3: allows you to not be in denial about the current 362 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 3: predicament but still envision a future that is pretty similar 363 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 3: to what we currently have, just with this like magical 364 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 3: invention or this or this like or this like apocalyptic 365 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 3: event that forces people to like actually solve some some 366 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 3: degree of problems. 367 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: You know. 368 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 3: It's kind of it's kind of like the thing in 369 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 3: Alan Moore's Watchman, being like if there was a giant squid, 370 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 3: then the whole world would team up together solve the problem, 371 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 3: And I don't know, that seems a little bit less likely. 372 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, Unfortunately, climate collapse, ecological collapse is not a giant squid, 373 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 2: and there is no Doctor Manhattan. 374 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and even even after COVID, Right, you have this massive, 375 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 3: like world threatening event, and it's it's kind of the 376 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 3: perfect example of it's like a you know, a version 377 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 3: of the giant squid, and that did not lead to 378 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 3: the whole world working together to solve this big problem. 379 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: I mean, to be fair, it was like a giant 380 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 2: invisible squid. Yeah, it was. To be fair as well, 381 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 2: the giant invisible squid is still there and like regularly 382 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 2: claiming lives. We kind of just go up all with 383 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 2: all of these kind of ignoring It's like, oh, you know, 384 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: that goes Fred, you know, snatched up by the giant squid. 385 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 3: I'm sure in the Watchmen world there would be a 386 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 3: great many of like squid deniers, of people who are like, no, 387 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 3: the squid was never real. The squid was all fake. 388 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 3: That was all fake in New York City, it was. 389 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 3: It wasn't real. 390 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 2: Like that. Long said, there has no opinion that everybody 391 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: in the world will agree with. You know, like, if 392 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 2: you were to say, for example, that all humans need 393 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: food to live, there's gonna be a contrarian who's gonna 394 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 2: tell you, actually, I survive on photosynthesis. I'm a breathetarian, 395 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 2: you know, so there's there is no uncontroversial tea because 396 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 2: they will. I think there will be a deniers no 397 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 2: matter what. You know, as you were talking about optimism 398 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: and sort of the dark things you're dealing with, it 399 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 2: reminded me of something that that shook me. Yesterday. I 400 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: was watching shown on YouTube Sean's video on Palestine, and 401 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: he shared the story of this young person and boy 402 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 2: who had filmed the video celebrating himself win a gat 403 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 2: in a thousand subscribe, and he was sharing his goals 404 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 2: of you know, you may get in ten thousand and 405 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand, maybe even a million, and he was 406 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 2: killed last year by the idea. So I think, I mean, 407 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 2: it's connected, but not entirely related. We're talking more long 408 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 2: lines of ecological collapse and systems collapse and this sort 409 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: of thing. And while it's true that for much of 410 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 2: the world, collapse is not going to look like a 411 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 2: singular event, I think it is also important to recognize 412 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 2: that and remember that there are people for whom collapse, 413 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 2: or rather their subjective collapse, the collapse of their world, 414 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 2: their way of life, their existence, is tearing them in 415 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: the face absolutely right now, you know, I don't want 416 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 2: to compare misfortunes. But you know, there is that reality 417 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 2: that you know, some people are facing like cataclysm right 418 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 2: in their face, and for others it's like a slower boon, 419 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 2: but ultimately similar feats. You know. 420 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 3: That was something we were also considering when putting together 421 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 3: some of the climate change focused earlier episodes from a 422 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 3: few years back. And like the effects of climate change 423 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 3: or just collapse in general are not like uniform, right 424 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 3: they they it first targets on the periphery and like whatever, 425 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 3: that's kind of a faulty way of doing that, right, 426 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 3: Like an old term would be like the third world. 427 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 3: We were trying to find better, better terms. 428 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 2: For this, and that doesn't really fully work. 429 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: Yeah. 430 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 2: I was actually recently talking and I stream about how 431 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 2: like like I'm just like I feel like all these 432 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 2: distinctions people trying to draw, like the west is just 433 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 2: the east, or you know, global North is school, so 434 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 2: they're all a bit messy. Yes, actual application, But the 435 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: people on like. 436 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 3: The the edges of empire, the edges of like the 437 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 3: Imperial engine, are going to face this a lot sooner 438 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 3: than the people in the imperial core, and like that 439 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 3: that is just whether that's collapsed through like war like 440 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 3: like like forced collapse, or that's collapsed through like environmental 441 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 3: factors like but both of those are often the case. 442 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 3: People are going to do a lot of work to 443 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 3: maintain the mecca of New York City, but they're not 444 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 3: going to care if a small town. 445 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 2: Not even a small town like Jakarta, could sink into 446 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 2: the ocean. 447 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 3: And absolutely like just like who kires, right, hurricanes taking 448 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 3: out like act like care. 449 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 2: Just to be clear, well, countries. 450 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely like those these things do not do 451 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 3: not get held on the same the same level. 452 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So I mean I'm supposed to answer my 453 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: own question. I think you do need a dose of 454 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 2: optimism to keep you from falling to despair or completely 455 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 2: checking out to the struggle, just for the sake of 456 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 2: your mental health, but not to the point of blindness 457 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 2: from the truth. I don't think there's anything wrong with 458 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: maintaining some level of emotional cushion in to keep you 459 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 2: going to you know, fuel you to wake up in 460 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 2: the morning and make it through your day, but not 461 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 2: to the point of the delusion, I suppose. And I 462 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 2: think this is this is the value of the outer 463 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: path as well. And I think this outer path is 464 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: fueled by a bit of in a grace and peace, 465 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 2: you know, you let go of some level of naivety 466 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 2: and passivity. You're moving, acting, doing, adapting. And here, of 467 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 2: course I'm thinking of like the Puma culture movement, the 468 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 2: Transition Towns Network, or the other ongoing movements and projects, 469 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: none of which are Perfick mind you, none of which 470 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: are going to say the whole world or anything, but 471 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 2: they Sidney Try. And I'm as thinking of like the 472 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: movement for the MST in Brazil, and you know the 473 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 2: Leavia Campecina who we would have interviewed in people about recently. 474 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: These groups, these movements, these struggles are thinking, are looking local, 475 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 2: thinking global and actually really making a difference. I think 476 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: that outlook is necessary. I think we need more political 477 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 2: movements it could be honest about reality that aren't waiting 478 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: for a safere or politician that aren't wait sensor it's 479 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: too late to act, that aren't removing power from the 480 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 2: hands of people and placement elsewhere. Move on instead, are 481 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: far less reactive and more proactive. And maybe I'll never 482 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 2: see a global shift to the growth or a steady 483 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: state economy in all lifetimes without a major disruption and 484 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 2: shifting the efforts of grounds roots movements. We can definitely 485 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 2: see small scale, local resilient systems springing up and spreading 486 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 2: that are better able to endure the coming economic, socio 487 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 2: ecological shocks. I am as pro social revolution as they come, 488 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 2: but I think we need a more expansive understanding of 489 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 2: what that entails. I was reading actually this morning, Anarchy, 490 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 2: a graphic guide by Clifford Harper, and he spoke about 491 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 2: how sixty five years of persistent agitation and organization culminated 492 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 2: in the largest, most far reaching revolutionary movement of the 493 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: modern times. I think when we discuss the Spanish Civil 494 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 2: War and the cnt FAI will get caught up from 495 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: what was happening during the Civil War. But I think 496 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 2: I don't think there's not focused on the fact that, 497 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 2: you know, these organizations were moving and shaken in their 498 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 2: communities and in their regions for decades prior to any 499 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: major you know pop off. You know, like a general 500 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 2: strike does not happen overnight, and insurrection does not happen overnight, 501 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 2: esp actually not without the level of broad scale support 502 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 2: they will be necessary to sustain those efforts. On the 503 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 2: topic of the Transition movement, in particular. That movement was 504 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 2: officially started in two thousand and six in the UK, 505 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 2: but had some routes before then. In two thousand and four, 506 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: Prima culture designer Rob Hopkins task students at Kinsale for 507 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 2: their education college with applying permaculture principles to the concept 508 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 2: of peak oil, lead into the creation of the Kinsale 509 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 2: and she Dissent Action Plan. Two students, Louis Rooney and 510 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 2: Catherine Dune, developed the Transition Town's concept, presenting it to 511 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: the Kinsale Town Council, which adopts the plan for energy independence. 512 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 2: Then Hopkins later moved to Totney's, England, where he, along 513 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 2: with Narishkian Gray Kian Grande, developed these concepts into the 514 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: Transition model. Transition Town Totney's, founded in early two thousand 515 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 2: and six, served as inspiration for other transition initiatives globally. 516 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,479 Speaker 2: Early two thousand and seven, the Transition Network UK charity 517 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 2: was co founded by Rob Hopkins, Peter Lippmann and Ben 518 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 2: Brangwin to support and the seveny transition concepts worldwide. By 519 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, project had expanded, with numerous communities 520 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: becoming official transition towns. These are things you don't care 521 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 2: about in the news. These are positive developments that have 522 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 2: happened under the radar for decades at this point. By 523 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: May twenty ten, over four hundred community initiatives were recognized 524 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 2: as official transition towns in various countries, reflecting a diverse 525 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 2: range of communities involved, from villages and neah words to 526 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 2: cities and city boroughs. The initiatives who developed citizens cooperatives, 527 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: renewable energy, local and sustainable food systems, new cooperative economic models, 528 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: sustainable transport systems, energy to send, action plans, and even 529 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 2: heart and soul groups built to respond to the emotional 530 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 2: components of collapse and transition. In the book How Everything 531 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 2: Can Collapse, which I referenced in the previous episode, Paulo 532 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 2: Savine and Raphael Steven's talk about the paradox of collapse, 533 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 2: and I'll leave it in their words because I think 534 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 2: it was really well put quote. From a philosophical point 535 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 2: of view, transition is a strange and paradoxical thing. It's 536 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 2: both catastrophists and optimistic, that is to say, both lucid 537 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 2: and pragmatic. Lucid because the people involved in these movements 538 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: are not in denial about catastrophes. Most of them have 539 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: given up the myth of eternal growth as well as 540 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: the myth of the apocalypse. They know and believe in 541 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 2: what awaits us. Generally receptive to catastrophised language because they 542 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 2: already are committed to the search for real alternatives. Pragmatic 543 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 2: because catastrophis political thinking is not apocalyptic in nature. It's 544 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 2: not claim to worry about the end of the world, 545 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 2: but more precisely about a sudden and potentially traumatic reorganization 546 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 2: of ecosystems and societies. Neither business as usual nor the 547 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 2: end of the world, just a world to invent together 548 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 2: here and now and good. The Transition movement is vitally 549 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 2: rooted in imagination, and I've spoken about the vitality of 550 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 2: imagination in the past. In fact, my video on the 551 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 2: subject was partially inspired by Rob Hopkins' book From What 552 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 2: Is to What If? You imagine? You sketch out the details, 553 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: and then you roll up your sleeves and you make 554 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 2: it real. During the development of the Transition Networks project, 555 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 2: Rob Hopkins, along with others, published the Transition Handbook, which 556 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: is structured in three parts, the first ahead, which are 557 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 2: the facts of the situation. Then you have the heart, 558 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 2: which are the emotional consequences and desire futures, and then 559 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 2: you have the hands, which is how you get from 560 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: imagination to action. And I just thought that was a 561 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: really great approach, even though the handbook is dated in 562 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 2: some ways. Of course, guiding people through the process of 563 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 2: even accepting transition and getting them on the outer path 564 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 2: works well on the small and personal scale, but there 565 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 2: is a challenge of scale. Savine and Steven's point out 566 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 2: that you can't exactly announce on a large platform Listen up, everybody, 567 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: prepare for the end of the world. As you can imagine, 568 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 2: it ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy. It's kind 569 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,439 Speaker 2: of like telling people not to rush out and buy 570 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 2: upoly toilet. People. Transition on larger scales is difficult. Not 571 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 2: to say it's not difficult to build the local communities 572 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: resilience from disruptions and food, energy, climate, etc. But on 573 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 2: the macro scale is even more difficult, at least if 574 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 2: you did to take on a top down approach. You 575 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 2: get what I'm saying. It is because this isn't exactly 576 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,919 Speaker 2: a problem that rulers are capable of solving. The debt 577 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 2: system is not going to go away by decree. The 578 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 2: energy system that fills their coffers won't shift until it 579 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 2: profits them either. And in Seeing like a States, the 580 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 2: anthropologist James's Scott spends a lot of time discussing just 581 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,760 Speaker 2: how that top down perspective of the world is inherently 582 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 2: limited and incapable of effecting those sorts of changes. But 583 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 2: thankfully the people able to act where rulers won't. As 584 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 2: being the Stevens put it transitioners to that wait for governments, 585 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 2: they already invent in ways of living through through this 586 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 2: collapse in a non tragic way. They are not waiting 587 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 2: for the worst, but building for the best. Ultimately, I'm 588 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 2: trying to get on the level of the transition town 589 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 2: rutists on the outer path that are building networks, building 590 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 2: community and building sustainability. Highly suggests that if you're looking 591 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 2: for ways to help out in your local situation, check 592 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 2: out the transition down network and see how you can 593 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 2: tap in or start your own initiative and your own area. 594 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 2: That's all I have for now or power to older people. 595 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 2: This is it could happen here. I am Andrew, this 596 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 2: is Garason. 597 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: Peace. It could Happen Here as a production of cool 598 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit 599 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: our website cool zonemedia dot com or check us out 600 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 601 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It could happen here, 602 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks 603 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: for listening.