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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's a period of

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Speaker 1: time when young kids stop being babies necessarily and they

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Speaker 1: become something that resembles a toddler. It's kind of that

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Speaker 1: weird age, you know, and it's so precious. It's precious

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Speaker 1: to see that development of a child as you're watching

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Speaker 1: them grow, you know, your own child, and you know

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Speaker 1: they're they're pulling up on things, and they're what they

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Speaker 1: call it cruising, you know, they're holding onto things and

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Speaker 1: walk around and finally some of them take those early

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Speaker 1: steps in there and it's precious to watch, but oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, it's terrifying too. I mean, it's it's probably

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Speaker 1: if you never had a small child and you don't

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Speaker 1: know what it's like. There are a few things and

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Speaker 1: it's amazing. You're going to think that I'm crazier than

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Speaker 1: you already think that I am. But sometimes you look

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Speaker 1: around and you say, where's my child because you don't know,

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Speaker 1: you don't know where they've wandered off to in your house,

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Speaker 1: you know, and so you have to watch them every

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Speaker 1: single moment because you're afraid that something is going to

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Speaker 1: befall them. It brings to mind a case that I've

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Speaker 1: been interested in now for a couple of weeks. I

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Speaker 1: guess it's a case involving an eighteen month old child,

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Speaker 1: an eighteen month old child who was so beautiful and

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Speaker 1: so precious, a gift from Heaven, as all children are,

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Speaker 1: but something entered into her space that I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I guess the only way I could really describe it

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Speaker 1: is malevolent. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body

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Speaker 1: David sit here, and I'm thinking about my grandchildren right now,

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Speaker 1: and even further back, I'm thinking about my kids when

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Speaker 1: they were babies, and I'm thinking about how fragile and

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Speaker 1: dangerous that age is, and how you're you're you know,

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Speaker 1: you're just trying to keep them alive, particularly when you're

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Speaker 1: a young parent. You know, you get older and you

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Speaker 1: have grand babies. That's another thing. You know, you're careful

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Speaker 1: with them, but you know that they're not necessarily going

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Speaker 1: to break, but you're always you're always worried because they're

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Speaker 1: so dependent upon you and they're so they're so vulnerable

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Speaker 1: to the world.

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Speaker 2: A great explanation about missing them in your own homes

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Speaker 2: eighteen months.

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Speaker 1: They are fast. They are fast, you know, it in

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Speaker 1: a closet or under.

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Speaker 2: The thing is when they're in the they're usually standing

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Speaker 2: on an old dresser on top of a TV. You

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Speaker 2: hit in there, next to a dresser that has only

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Speaker 2: three legs, and they're standing on top saying hi. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's an eighteen month old right there.

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Speaker 1: It's it's terrifying. But they're so darn cute. I mean

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Speaker 1: they are, they're they're just so it's such a sweet age,

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Speaker 1: you know, because they they still have that amount of

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Speaker 1: baby in them where they want to crawl up in

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Speaker 1: your lap and you can rock them, you can soothe them.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're gonna cry, they're gonna they have these

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Speaker 1: needs and you can meet them and all those sort

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Speaker 1: of things such as such a precious time.

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Speaker 2: Uh you know that's why this story has the way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it really has. I I you know, I've

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Speaker 1: often thought about this, you know, when we cover cases

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Speaker 1: involving small children. Just bring them, bring them to me,

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Speaker 1: don't destroy them.

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Speaker 2: Think about this story actually began four months before it ended, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: four months before and obviously we're talking about the death

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Speaker 2: of an eighteen month old child named iris Rita Alfara.

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Speaker 2: She was eighteen months old four months before she died,

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Speaker 2: she had spent the weekend with her her biological father.

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Speaker 1: He had hit.

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Speaker 2: The biological mother and father were not together as a

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Speaker 2: married couple. They both had moved on. They shared custody

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Speaker 2: shared custody, meaning the mom had custody all the time

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Speaker 2: and the dad had visitation about every other weekend, and

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Speaker 2: she did that. They tended to work out for them.

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Speaker 2: After one of her weekends, After one of Iris's weekends

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Speaker 2: with her dad, her mom noticed when she was changing

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Speaker 2: a diaper, some water beads were in her diaper. These

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Speaker 2: are the water beads that are like in a bathtub,

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Speaker 2: you know, the bathing beads some people call them. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: she was scared, frightened, what are these beads doing in

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Speaker 2: my child's diaper? And she takes her to the hospital.

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Speaker 2: They thought the same thing, What in the world has

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Speaker 2: she done? What is she eaten? And at the hospital

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Speaker 2: they watched not just beads pass through her system, a

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Speaker 2: couple of small batteries, the little batteries you like a

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Speaker 2: watch battery, all right, and a screw like a wood

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Speaker 2: screw also passed through her system into her diaper. Now,

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Speaker 2: when it first happened that these passed. That was a warning. Certainly, hey,

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Speaker 2: something's up. Somebody's either not watching her careful enough. You know,

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Speaker 2: they weren't thinking anything heinous. They weren't thinking this child

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Speaker 2: is having to fight a monster. They were actually thinking, Wow,

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Speaker 2: you know, this child thankfully did not suffer any long

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Speaker 2: term effects from this. So when she did start suffering

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Speaker 2: effects and the she was at her dad's place for

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Speaker 2: the weekend, Dad goes to the grocery store. While he's

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Speaker 2: there at getting ready to pay for his groceries, his

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Speaker 2: girlfriend calls and says, Hey, something's wrong with the baby,

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Speaker 2: and he's like, well, call nine one one, I'm on

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Speaker 2: my way. By the time the rescuers got there with

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Speaker 2: lethargic iris was not really her eyes were fixed. And

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Speaker 2: I've got questions about the way they described her, Joe,

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Speaker 2: because I'm not sure. I'm not knowing the medical terms

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Speaker 2: what it all means. But the bottom line is she

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Speaker 2: died from things that she didn't find on her own.

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Speaker 2: She was fed and in this particular case, now, polish remover, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that would be the best thing to explain it. Now,

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Speaker 2: polish remover acetone, is that what.

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Speaker 1: It's called yone. Yeah it is.

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Speaker 2: That's what killed eighteen month old Iris Alfari.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's horrible stuff. Let me back up just for

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Speaker 1: a second to give you know, to give our friends

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Speaker 1: here kind of an understanding of First off, that first

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Speaker 1: part that we were describing. I don't many people might

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Speaker 1: not be aware of this, but there is actually a

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Speaker 1: condition that adults suffer from, and it's actually referred to

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Speaker 1: as pika and pika p I c A. It's actually

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Speaker 1: a condition where people get fixated on consuming non food items.

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Speaker 1: And I think probably one of the most ghastly examples

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Speaker 1: of this is probably Albert Fish, who was a serial

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Speaker 1: killer back I don't know, the turn of the last century,

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Speaker 1: I think, and he he would ingest metallic objects like needles, nails,

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Speaker 1: all manner things that and but he was he had

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Speaker 1: pika in the sense that it was a sato masochistic thing.

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Speaker 1: He enjoyed the pain in his bowel. And that's the

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Speaker 1: thing I got to thinking about this when you had mentioned,

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Speaker 1: you know, the batteries are one thing that's kind of

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Speaker 1: a smooth external surface if they're not broken, Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: could be easily passed. The water beads sometimes if those

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Speaker 1: rupture they've got a dehydrating quality to them that could

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Speaker 1: be quite dangerous. But primarily you're worrying about blockages. But

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Speaker 1: the screw in particular troubled me because if you swallow

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Speaker 1: a metal object like that, and as it's kind of

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Speaker 1: passing through, well, obviously it has to make its way

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Speaker 1: to the stomach, and then where the stomach dumps into

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Speaker 1: the small intestine. You know, it has to travel some distance,

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Speaker 1: and you're really wondering along the way. If you just

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Speaker 1: imagine you'd mentioned that this was like a woodscrew, Well,

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Speaker 1: this is going to be something that has got it's

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Speaker 1: got a very sharp point on it, and it's got

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Speaker 1: despiraling pattern that runs up the side that literally can

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Speaker 1: hang on the mucosal surface of the bowel. Just imagine

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Speaker 1: that just for a second. If it gets in there

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Speaker 1: and it gets twisted, then that means that the bowl

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Speaker 1: rupture perhaps, and all kinds of bad things can happen

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Speaker 1: at that point, and the child has no way of

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Speaker 1: communicating this. I think one of the questions I would

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Speaker 1: have if this was an attempt to take this child's

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Speaker 1: life in some kind of passive way. You know what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, It's not like, it's not like the child

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Speaker 1: is being beaten to death, but you try to it's

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Speaker 1: almost staging. It is staging. You want to make it

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Speaker 1: look like the kid pick something up, stuffed it in

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Speaker 1: their mouth, and oops, it was an accident and they died.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that you can take the full measure

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Speaker 1: of thinking about providing objects for a child to swallow it,

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Speaker 1: and how do you get them to swallow it. Did

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Speaker 1: you take a woodscrew and place it into a banana, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, and give the banana to the child, say,

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Speaker 1: cut up bits of banana, or maybe maybe you're talking

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Speaker 1: about it's not a finger food. Maybe maybe you're taking

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Speaker 1: something out of a jar, you know, like I don't know,

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Speaker 1: like care it's you know, like puadan carrots, or you know,

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Speaker 1: one of these peas or one of these things that's

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Speaker 1: real tacky, and you you place that item in there,

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Speaker 1: and then you can you imagine taking that spoon and

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Speaker 1: dipping that out, and you.

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Speaker 2: Know, your first thought would be if you're a medical

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Speaker 2: person and you see this, your first thought isn't going

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Speaker 2: to be somebody got this baby to eat his screw.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be she found some things on the

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Speaker 2: floor and was oh yeah, and just grabbed them and

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Speaker 2: you know, fingers to mouth, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. And I have to say,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you if this is the issue and

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Speaker 1: you're taking the child to the emergency room to be assessed,

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Speaker 1: first off, you're going to do X rays on the

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Speaker 1: child thoroughly. You know, you want to be able to

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Speaker 1: look through get a really good image of the bowel,

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Speaker 1: every bit and the stomach to see if there's anything

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Speaker 1: but refer to that's radio opaque in there, because if

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Speaker 1: there's another item in there, and you can find another item,

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Speaker 1: I don't most people. You know, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: talk out there about how and you've probably heard this

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Speaker 1: over the years, about how long the human intestine is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the small intestine, in particular, large intestine. It sounds counter too.

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Speaker 1: Large intestine is not as as long as the small intestine.

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Speaker 1: Small intestine is really compact. It compacted upon itself. It's

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Speaker 1: in loops. We refer to it as loops, and it

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Speaker 1: goes it's feet, I mean just feet and feet and feet.

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Speaker 1: So anything that is passing through there, all these little turns,

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Speaker 1: all these little awkward positions that it can get in

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Speaker 1: if you've got a foreign object in there, it can

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Speaker 1: get hung up in that gastric mucosa. The surgeon that's

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Speaker 1: tasked with clearing that area out really has hell to pay,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you're going by the image, and of

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Speaker 1: course they're going to scope these kids in order to

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Speaker 1: look for it. But it's a very delicate thing because

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Speaker 1: if that tissue is harmed in a particular way, you

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Speaker 1: can actually have something like sepsis that might set in

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Speaker 1: in that area because you don't know if it's if

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Speaker 1: the surface of that bowel is ruptured and then it

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Speaker 1: kind of begins to spill out into that surrounding area,

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Speaker 1: you can have all kinds of nasties that set in.

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Speaker 1: And you really wonder had somebody actually weaponized food and

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Speaker 1: a little to kill a sharp.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Dave, I got a question for you.

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Speaker 1: You ever been messing around with super glue and you

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Speaker 1: get some of it on the surface of like one

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Speaker 1: of your fingers, and then you put your other finger

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Speaker 1: on the surface of the finger that has super clue,

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Speaker 1: and you're sitting there and you're trying to saying, oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, you know what am I going to do?

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Speaker 1: You know, and there's all kinds of stories of people

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Speaker 1: that have super glue, toilet lids down, and all kinds

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Speaker 1: of stuff. You know from that. Do you know, do

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Speaker 1: you know what substance can be used to free up

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Speaker 1: super glue? I do? Yeah, Actually astone. It's an astone base.

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Speaker 2: You know how I knew it?

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Speaker 1: How's that?

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Speaker 2: Several months ago there was a story about a woman

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Speaker 2: who used gorilla glue on her hair getting ready for

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Speaker 2: a big date. Ran out of hairspray when used grilla glue, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and her hands, her hair all got glued together. And

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Speaker 2: so I found out that they used astone. That's how

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Speaker 2: they were able to undo her fingers and hair and

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Speaker 2: everything else. And she wasn't the first one.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it an amazing stuff we'd come across? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it really is.

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Speaker 2: But now polish remover works at getting rid of glue.

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Speaker 1: It does. I mean, it's it's a solvent, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it can you know, you begin to think, well,

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Speaker 1: what does that involve? If you've ever been around superglue

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Speaker 1: and you've glued something down and or you've gotten the

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Speaker 1: residue left behind, how are you going to get that up? Well?

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Speaker 1: Acetone is one of the ways that you do it,

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Speaker 1: and astone is also used is also used UH to

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Speaker 1: remove fingernail polish and if you've ever been around fingernail polish.

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Speaker 1: My wife uses it UH and has used it over

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Speaker 1: the years. It's one of I don't like the smell

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Speaker 1: of either one. I don't like the smell of nail polish.

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Speaker 1: It makes my head hurt. Acetone is not as heavy

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Speaker 1: in the odor, but it's still you can pick up

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Speaker 1: on the on the on the smell of it UH.

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Speaker 1: And as it's being used and generally you're in close

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Speaker 1: proximity to your spouse that they're taking.

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Speaker 2: It is strong enough of a smell. You're right that

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Speaker 2: it's not something you would immediately think, Hey, let me

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Speaker 2: taste this.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not. But it's much like you know, we've

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Speaker 1: we've had several cases over the years where we've talked

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Speaker 1: about we've talked about antifreeze. Yeah, and you know anti

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Speaker 1: freeze U. One of the dangers of it is that

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Speaker 1: it's actually got a sweet taste to it. You know,

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Speaker 1: astone has a sweet taste to it. So if you're yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: if you're if you're going to use it in well,

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Speaker 1: use the word malevolence but in a malevolent way if

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Speaker 1: you're going to use it to perpetrate a crime like this.

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Speaker 1: It's not like you're you're taking hydrochlic acid and pouring

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Speaker 1: it down somebody. Sort you're giving them something that has

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Speaker 1: a sweet taste. And what do kids love? Kids love

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Speaker 1: things that are sweet, so to if you can just

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Speaker 1: imagine what would it take to motivate somebody to say,

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Speaker 1: you know what I think I want to do. I

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Speaker 1: want to take an eighteen month old little girl, a

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Speaker 1: little precious baby like this. I'm going to apply her

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Speaker 1: with fingernail polish remover. Gee. I wonder what'll happen well

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Speaker 1: in this particular case. I think, Dave, we have an indication,

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Speaker 1: at least at this point that some research might have

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Speaker 1: been done well in regardless to what would be effective

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Speaker 1: in doing harm to someone.

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Speaker 2: That's why I wanted to set up the inter relationships

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Speaker 2: here with the parents of iris Rita Alfara, the eighteen

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Speaker 2: month old victim. Here, I wanted you to be aware

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Speaker 2: very early on that she was not living with her

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Speaker 2: biological parents. She lived with her mom full time and

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Speaker 2: they lived with her grandparents. Her dad had already moved

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Speaker 2: on to another woman that he was living with a

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Speaker 2: twenty year old woman named Alicia Lenee Owens. Alicia LINEE

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Speaker 2: Owens was there with her the weekend she ended up

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Speaker 2: with all the waterbeads, the three button bat shape batteries,

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Speaker 2: and the metal screw. She was there that weekend that

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Speaker 2: these were ingested and when police were investigating, because you've

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Speaker 2: got an eighteen month old girl who is seemingly imperfect health,

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Speaker 2: and her dad is at the grocery store and she's

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Speaker 2: at home with her dad's girlfriend, and they get a

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Speaker 2: call that she is has taken ill. And when the

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Speaker 2: emergency crews arrived, Joe, she is awake, she's lethargic, her

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Speaker 2: eyes are fixed, and she's This girlfriend claims that she's

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Speaker 2: a nursing student and has tried to perform chess compressions

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Speaker 2: to help iris because.

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Speaker 1: She was not.

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Speaker 2: Her story was that she was feeding the baby on

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Speaker 2: the bed. The baby cramped and fell off the bed

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Speaker 2: and hit her head and that's when she started acting

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Speaker 2: bad physically ill. That's when the girlfriend calls the dad.

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Speaker 2: The dad says call nine one one, he comes home.

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Speaker 2: He gets there by the same time the rescue squad arrives.

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Speaker 2: They look at her and they take her to the hospital.

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Speaker 2: Now at the hospital, the doctors are like, no way,

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Speaker 2: this just happened. There's something else going on here. This

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Speaker 2: is when they air flight her to at another hospital.

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Speaker 2: She dies four days later, eighteen months old, and goes

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Speaker 2: from being a perfectly healthy girl when dad leaves her

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Speaker 2: to go to the grocery store and four days later

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Speaker 2: she's dead, and doctors are saying, there's something more to this,

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Speaker 2: so they begin investigations. The investigation two fold because one

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Speaker 2: she had physical signs of trauma. She did have a

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Speaker 2: hit on her head. She had signs that the doctor

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Speaker 2: said appeared to be inflicted by an adult. It looked

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Speaker 2: like abuse. During the investigation, they found out that Linne

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Speaker 2: Owens had been researching on her phone things that could

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Speaker 2: hurt a child every day, Household items that could hurt

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Speaker 2: a child everyday, household items that could hurt Who looks

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Speaker 2: for that, Joe? Who uses their phone to look up

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Speaker 2: ways that things that would hurt a child in the home.

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Speaker 2: Not from a safety standpoint.

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Speaker 1: No kidding, David, I mean, if you're you know, if

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Speaker 1: you're entertaining a child, say for instance, you've never I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I can't understand what circumstances you would search

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Speaker 1: that out. But let's just say you're going to keep

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Speaker 1: somebody's kids. You whiz, I've never kept a kid before.

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Speaker 1: What how can I safeguard my house? I'm looking for

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Speaker 1: things that could do harm to them. But when you

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Speaker 1: get this specific and you begin to look for things

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Speaker 1: that actually might wind up in a fatal event, that's

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Speaker 1: that is a red flag for investigators, and particularly if

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Speaker 1: you do these searches over a long period of time.

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Speaker 1: It almost goes from a circumstantial standpoint. You're seeing somebody

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Speaker 1: beginning to put puzzle pieces together toward a goal which

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Speaker 1: they're looking to accomplish here and of course the goal,

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Speaker 1: seemingly at this point in tom is the death of

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Speaker 1: this child, the removal of this child from you know,

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Speaker 1: this family environment, from you know, her dad. And and

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Speaker 1: because you know, many times in this blended situation like this,

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Speaker 1: children can become let's see, how can I put this,

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Speaker 1: it's almost children many times become almost like an accessory

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Speaker 1: on a vehicle that the new owner doesn't want, but

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Speaker 1: yet the vehicle can't operate without them. And that's unfortunate.

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Speaker 1: But that's really kind of the world that many of

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Speaker 1: us have inhabited throughout our lives. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: unwanted older out there, and there are people that will

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Speaker 1: do harm to children if given an opportunity, if they

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Speaker 1: can be removed from the equation in an environment. So

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Speaker 1: you have to think, uh, you know, you you kind

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Speaker 1: of let off this conversation by stating, I think, what

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Speaker 1: what is it? There's monsters among us. I think that's

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Speaker 1: what you said. And you know it was.

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Speaker 2: The Newsweek Newsweek articles. The headline about this story was

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Speaker 2: Monsters do exist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, monsters, and they do truly exist, and they will

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Speaker 1: go to whatever links possible to uh, to remove whatever

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Speaker 1: an impediment the child might be, or whatever the circumstances

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Speaker 1: to rearrange it so it works through their advantage.

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Speaker 2: And that's what you're trying to do. Yeah, you're trying

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Speaker 2: to get rid of the baby, to get out of

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Speaker 2: her boyfriend's life so he wouldn't have anything to do

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Speaker 2: with his ex. That was what it amounted to, or

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Speaker 2: that's my opinion, that's what it did. Put it this way, Joe,

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Speaker 2: I had to ask you this, okay, because the doctors

357
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Speaker 2: now the way she explained it to the medical professionals.

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Speaker 2: They show up that the baby was eating on the bed,

359
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Speaker 2: she had a cramp, fell off the bed and hit

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Speaker 2: her head. Doctors at the children's at the children's center

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Speaker 2: that reported this to the police, it's the UPMC's Children's

362
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Speaker 2: Child Advocacy Center. They reported the police that Iris suffered

363
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Speaker 2: subdural hematoma and bilateral retinal hemorrhages.

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Speaker 1: What is that? Okay, Well, you've got when we're talking

365
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Speaker 1: about a subdural hematoma. Uh, you have got a uh

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Speaker 1: your brain sits inside of a sack. Okay, it's uh,

367
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Speaker 1: it's it's called the dura, the dura sack, and your

368
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Speaker 1: brain is a wash with cerebral spinal fluid. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: your your brain kind of floats in this substance, all right,

370
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Speaker 1: contained within a sack. The sack along with the fluid,

371
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Speaker 1: acts as almost a shock like a shock absorber or

372
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Speaker 1: the brain. If you're talking about a subdural hematoma, that

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Speaker 1: means sub obviously meaning below. So if you've got a

374
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Speaker 1: subdural hematoma, that means that the hemorrhage itself is in

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Speaker 1: between the dura sac and the brain. And what does

376
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Speaker 1: that do? Will it creates pressure? And if you're talking

377
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Speaker 1: about this kind of bilateral retinal event, Dave. That's something

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Speaker 1: that we commonly see with shaking baby syndrome, because if

379
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Speaker 1: you're talking about shaking a child to that point where

380
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Speaker 1: you're going to inflict not only brain trauma, but also

381
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Speaker 1: this kind of ocular trauma as well, you've got to

382
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Speaker 1: have an origin for these points of hemorrhage and that

383
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Speaker 1: kind of violence shaking that takes place. Now, there's some

384
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Speaker 1: people out there there's actually been a long running debate

385
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Speaker 1: about is making baby syndrome a real thing? Because one

386
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 1: of the diagnoses that people would make many times is

387
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Speaker 1: that you would have these children be bilaterally blinded many

388
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Speaker 1: times because of the rigorous shaking of the child. And

389
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Speaker 1: when you've got say these optic nerves that are in

390
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Speaker 1: the back of the eye that lead into the brain,

391
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: sometimes they can be traumatized. The surface of the floor

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Speaker 1: of the skull is very rough, all right, and if

393
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Speaker 1: it's fractured any way, or the kids are jostled in

394
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Speaker 1: any particular way, particularly over protracted period of time, you

395
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: did great harm to the eyes in that area. Not

396
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Speaker 1: to mention the brain. So you've got the brain with

397
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 1: a subdural hematoma where you know that that child, that

398
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: head is being bounced back and forth all over the place,

399
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Speaker 1: So the little vessels are going to rupture on the

400
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: surface of the brain and you're going to have this

401
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: pressure that's going to begin to build up as that

402
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: blood that focal area of hemorrhage, that clot kind of

403
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: sets in, and that's going to be problematic. And yeah,

404
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: it would be. It would be glaring, you know, particularly

405
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: for us at autopsy when her head is actually opened.

406
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 1: If you have not seen this on X ray, you

407
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: don't know that it's coming. I've actually had these cases

408
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,239
Speaker 1: day where we've been in the autopsy room. There's not

409
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 1: necessarily any kind of external trauma. Like you're looking at

410
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: the head, you don't see anything, and then all of

411
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: a sudden you open up the head and you're taking

412
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: back the dura and there is a big, big hymorrhage

413
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: right there, and you're thinking, oh my lord, what's happening here.

414
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 1: So we've got we've got trauma obviously to the head

415
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: that is just in and of itself, Dave, that in

416
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: and of itself is enough to give investigators pause. You've

417
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: really got a lot sink your teeth into there. But

418
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: now you've got you've got a child that is not

419
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 1: only lethargic, which that can be associated with a head injury,

420
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: but they're not responding. And when they do the lab studies,

421
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: they discovered that the child is going into ketosis, which

422
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: your body produces ketones naturally. We actually we actually process

423
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: astone every day in our system. It's kind of this.

424
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: It's it's something that's naturally occurring. It's a byproduct, and

425
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: we process it. One of the things that aston does

426
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: is that it creates keytnes, and keytnes are produced I

427
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 1: think they're produced in the liver, and so your body

428
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: is equipped to kind of flush these key tones. You

429
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: have a spike in keytnes many times with diabetic patients

430
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: and and they can get in real serious trouble with ketosis.

431
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: And so with her, she's kind of in, you know,

432
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: as pilots like to say, they were in what's it

433
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 1: referred to as an unrecoverable flat spin. You've got this

434
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: kid that is in great diminished physical condition. The staff

435
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: is scratching their heads. They're looking at this and they're thinking, oh,

436
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: my lord, what can we do to save this child's life?

437
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: And then, as you said, the admission time was what

438
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 1: two to three days in length there trying, they're they're

439
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: four days. They're trying, valiantly, fighting to try to save

440
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: this child, and no matter what you throw, no matter

441
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: what you think at this situation, you're not going to

442
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 1: you're not going to save her. And so it's it's

443
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: really it would be very frustrating, I would think for

444
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: a clinical physician and certainly those brave nurses that work

445
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: with these children day in and day out, to sit

446
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: there and you've got all of this medical science at

447
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 1: your disposal, You've got all of these treatments, you've got

448
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: all of this history and everything, and nothing that you

449
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: do is going to save this child's life, and you

450
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: literally just kind of watch them there as they dwindle

451
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: and dwindle and dwindle until finally they're dead and there's

452
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 1: nothing you can go back and do about it.

453
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: In this case, one of the doctors said that based

454
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 2: on her condition, that there's no way her dad didn't

455
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 2: recognize that something was not recognizable in this child before

456
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 2: they called nine to one one because the story was

457
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: that dad went to the grocery store and while girl

458
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: friend was watching the baby. Veteran that's when all of

459
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 2: this happened, and the doctor was saying it could it

460
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 2: had to, there had to be more noticeable stuff going on.

461
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: But when they get her to the hospital, and as

462
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 2: you mentioned, they're treating what they see. They're treating what

463
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: is obvious, but they don't know until after they do

464
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 2: the autopsy about the acetone. Is there a test that

465
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 2: one would give a baby that they would look would

466
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: you look for acetone or some type of thing like

467
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: that that could cause organ failure? Is that is that

468
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: on the chart of things to look for?

469
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess you're talking about when they're in

470
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: the clinical phase, uh, in the hospital.

471
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's in the hospital and she's dying. Her organs

472
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: are failing, and you know, they've got the subdrillhematoma, you

473
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: got the problem with the retinal era, You've got that.

474
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: But she's not responding to treatment, as you mentioned, And.

475
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: So I think that I would think that probably they're

476
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,959
Speaker 1: gonna they're gonna suss out this idea of the katosis

477
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: pretty quickly, uh, and try to determine what the origin

478
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: is with it, and maybe by the time they get

479
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: this thing figured out, it's just it's too late. At

480
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: that point in time, they can't. There's nothing that they

481
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: can do to stem it. And so you know, for

482
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: us at the Medical Examiner's office, you know, we have

483
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: a luxury. You know, in medical legal death investigation. We're

484
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: not trying to save anybody's life. We're trying to solve

485
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: a mystery at this point in time. So it takes

486
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,479
Speaker 1: some head scratching, and it also takes a review of

487
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: all of the charted material. Everything from the moment that

488
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: this baby would roll through the door in the emergency room,

489
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: then up to the floor and then she was transported

490
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: to another location. All of that data would be gone.

491
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: Over All the nursing notes, all the doctor's notes, anything

492
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: any that they would have taken to try to stem

493
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 1: this condition. That's all going to be considered at autopsy,

494
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: and then that's going to lead the forensic pathologist at

495
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: the end of the day, after they balance all of

496
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: this and they take a look at her tissues certainly

497
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: post mortem, look at everything microscopically, take all the history

498
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: and consideration, that's when they're finally going to make this diagnosis.

499
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: And I think that the forensic pathologist finally had a

500
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: Eureka moment, you know, where they said, yeah, this is

501
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: this is acetone poisoning. And look, this doesn't happen a lot, okay,

502
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: And I don't want to reduce this down to the

503
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: death of this little angel, down to some kind of

504
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: academic exercise. But it happens with such rarity that this

505
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: would this methodology would be something that a forensic pathologist

506
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: would probably study and actually publish a paper on. That's

507
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: how you know, infrequently it happens they would discuss this

508
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: at a meeting with other physicians to say or other

509
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: pathologists to say, look, I had this case. This is

510
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: something you need to watch out for. It's not like,

511
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: you know, if we deal with all manner of trauma.

512
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: We mentioned the head trauma, that's something that we see regularly.

513
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: But you know, we see gunshot wounds and bludgeonings and

514
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: stabbings and all that stuff, certainly motor vehicle accidents. But this,

515
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: this is something it's not it's not absolutely positivity has

516
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: never happened. It has happened. We've got a lot of

517
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: literature on it, but it's not something that you're going

518
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: to see every single month. Maybe you won't even see

519
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: one a year. Okay, So when it happens, it's significant

520
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: and that way.

521
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: Once that did happen, her death was ruled a homicide

522
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: and the investigation began. And that's when the four months

523
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: previous that we told you about at the very beginning.

524
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 2: That's why it was so important to know that. I

525
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: think that that was like trial run four months earlier

526
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 2: of the button, the batteries that were like buttons, the

527
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: water beads, and the screw. And as they were investigating,

528
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 2: they said, well, okay, not uncommon for an eighteen month

529
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: old to swallow things. Look, I don't know a parent

530
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: that hasn't found something in a diaper and went, please

531
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: tell me that was after no, that did not pass. Please. Yeah,

532
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: And thankfully kids do stick stuff in their diaper. You know,

533
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: it doesn't all come through their system first, because right, boy,

534
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: I got two kids that would have not survived. But

535
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: but in this particular case, they started that and went, okay,

536
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: that's explainable. But as they started looking into that happened

537
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: when the child was at her dad's house with this girlfriend,

538
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: and so they start examining dad's phone, girlfriend's phone, and

539
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: they find out that girlfriend has been researching for nine months. Joe,

540
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: this child is eighteen months old and for half of

541
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: her life, this twenty year old girlfriend was looking up

542
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: if you're child drinks a lot of nail polish remover,

543
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: what happens? That was one of the topics that Miss

544
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: Owen's researched. What happens if a baby eats nail polish

545
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 2: another of her search and she know's on her cell

546
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: phone in how many cases have kids died from eating

547
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 2: water beads? Think about that for a minute. Is what

548
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: happened four months earlier? Water beads. So the police had

549
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: this investigation pretty much from the very beginning, zeroed in.

550
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 2: Now it was a matter of going to Joe Scott

551
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: Morgan saying, how do we put all this together? You know,

552
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to put it together on my police detective

553
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: hat here and I see how these how do we

554
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: connect them all medically?

555
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: Joe, Well, I think that again it's going to be

556
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: the preponderance of the evidence relative to her clinical treatment.

557
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: But then you take this and here's the really ominous

558
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: piece to this, not that all of this isn't ominous,

559
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: but when you begin to talk about a nine month period.

560
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: First off, if if I were a prosecutor and I

561
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: was I was working in a location, which this case

562
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 1: is out of Pennsylvania, and I was working in that location.

563
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: Does the word premeditation mean anything here? You know, because

564
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: you know, we talk, you know people, and our friend

565
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace always says, I'll let me see if I

566
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: can do my best imitation. She says, just got premeditation

567
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: can be formed in the twinkling of an eye. And

568
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: you're right, I mean it can be formed in a

569
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: twinkling of eye, Dave. Nine months. Ain't a twinkling of

570
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: an eye. You're talking about a record. Just just frame this.

571
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 1: You're talking about allegedly a record that they have now

572
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:54,959
Speaker 1: of her activities stretching back nine months, nine months, Dave.

573
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: Where the prosecution is going to present this case because

574
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: it hasn't don't trial yet? Right? Oh?

575
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: And by the way, Joe, Yeah, During the four days

576
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: that this baby was in the hospital before she died,

577
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 2: Alicia Owen's cell phone researched numerous times how to pass

578
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: a polygraph test.

579
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: And let me guess, how did that work out?

580
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: She actually was charged with murder. This has not been

581
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 2: adjudicated yet. This is an ongoing case because of the

582
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: homicide charges. She was denied bail, and we will follow

583
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 2: it up and will update this particular podcast and probably

584
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 2: do an update because there will be more information on

585
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: what Alicia Lana Owens is accused of doing and why

586
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 2: Bailey Jacobi, the father, was not charged and still has

587
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: not been charged with any wrongdoing in the death of

588
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: his daughter. We'll have to get an update on that

589
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 2: as well.

590
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: Joe, you're right, and I think looking at this this

591
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: doesn't require a polygraph to be able to understand and

592
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: to interpret that something that was absolutely pure evil was

593
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: perpetrated on this gift sent straight down from Heaven. I'm

594
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybags