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Listener discretion is advised. 10 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: Previously on Wisecrack. 11 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 3: The twenty second of July twenty fifteen, between eleven and 12 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 3: twelve o'clock at night, the twenty three year old man 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 3: named Ryan Godard, my school bully, had killed his family. 14 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 3: He stabbed his mother forty two times, his stepfather fifty six, 15 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 3: using seven different blunt knives from the kitchen, and then 16 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 3: he came to my house and while I'm out, I'll 17 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 3: tell you the third lie, just so you're aware, is 18 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 3: that I've changed the names and the places and the 19 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,559 Speaker 3: people's names just out of respect for the dead. 20 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 4: That's what I was right, I. 21 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 5: Think to do. 22 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 6: That was probably the first time I told anyone the 23 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 6: name of Brett, even people who saw the show. 24 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: I've been talking on the phone with Ed, trying to 25 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: learn as much as I can about him and his 26 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: childhood bully real name Brett Rogers. But the truth is 27 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: I knew Brett was dead long before Ed told me. 28 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: Once Ed disclosed his name that night in Edinburgh, it 29 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: didn't take much research to find the horrifying fact that 30 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: Brett met his end only two months before Ed took 31 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: the stage. 32 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 6: I never told people the name. I would give them 33 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 6: enough that they could find the name if they were industrious, 34 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 6: but I never wanted to invite people to the village. 35 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 6: I never wanted to invite people into the personal lives. 36 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: We've been chatting for a few months now because I've 37 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: decided to go to England. It's the only way to 38 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: uncover what really happened that night by retracing every one 39 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: of Ed and Brett's steps. I finished my preliminary research 40 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: and set up most of my interviews. But one question 41 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: sticks in the back of my mind. Why me Ed 42 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: has been gatekeeping Brett's name from everyone who's ever seen 43 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: his show, but he was willing to let me in. 44 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: What made him trust me? 45 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 7: So? What did I give you it? 46 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 6: And you were persistent? But you are a questions that 47 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 6: were different to anyone else's questions. 48 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: He opened the door for me, not because I asked louder, 49 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: but because the same troubling questions that were swirling around 50 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: in my head had been weighing on his heart for years. 51 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: Why would Brett murder his own mom, why would he 52 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: break down Ed's door that same night? And just how 53 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: did Brett Rogers end up dead in one of England's 54 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: most secure prisons only twenty three months later. I'm Jody 55 00:03:38,480 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: Tovey and this is wisecrack Soon episode three. 56 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 8: Hello, Hello, Hell, I'm great. 57 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: I landed at Heathrow to find Ed waiting outside the airport. 58 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: This is the first time I'd seen him in seven years, 59 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: and it was both awkward and strangely familiar. At twenty nine, 60 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: he seemed sharper, more self aware than the boyish comedian 61 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: I remembered. His bouncy curls were replaced by short hair 62 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: and stubble. 63 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 4: Ah I play. 64 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: I'm here to investigate who Brett Rogers really was, but 65 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: in truth, I'm also piecing together who Ed is too. 66 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: Up until the night of the murders, these two lives 67 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: were inextricable. After that night, I'm left to wonder about 68 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: two pretty unexplainable things. What caused one young man to 69 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: snap and go on a murderous rampage and the other 70 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: to write and perform comedy about it. So, along with 71 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: the police officers and other witnesses, I've been reaching out 72 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: to Ed's old friends in London, an ex girlfriend or two, 73 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: and other comedians that he came up with. Ed told 74 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: me he learned of Brett's death a few months after 75 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: Edinburgh through his brother. That seemed like a perfect place 76 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: to start. 77 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 9: I am a thirty six year old dad seven o'clock high, 78 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 9: unto anything that I didn't know that was what that 79 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 9: sentence was going. 80 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: Ed wasn't the only one keen to leave his hometown 81 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: of Stanstead. Both of his brothers moved out of the village, 82 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: and this brother is Sam Hedges. 83 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 9: As soon does he leave that thing there gets turned 84 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 9: on and I'm going to sink into the world of 85 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 9: Diablo four until three am. 86 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: Before we got to Sam's Ed explains that his brother 87 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: is very opinionated and not interested in others points of view, 88 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: especially if you're a woman or a person of color, 89 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: So two strikes against me. But of the three Hedges brothers, 90 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: Sam was the closest to Brett. He probably knew the 91 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: most of who he really was. As we settled into 92 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: Sam's tiny living room, I wanted to know what he 93 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: recalled about the boy next door. 94 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 9: There's two opinions I think with things like that, And 95 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 9: the first opinion would be, when you've got someone who 96 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 9: sees them rarely see someone really and they just see 97 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 9: that part of them, They're gonna sit there and think 98 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 9: that guy's a dick. Every time I see him, he 99 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 9: says got a negative thing to say about me, or 100 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 9: he just tries to bully me, or he hits me 101 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 9: or whatever. But if you see that person every day 102 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 9: and you see one hundred people that he interacts with 103 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 9: that he doesn't do that too, and then one person 104 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 9: that he does because he just, I don't know, self 105 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 9: esteem thing, may need to make himself feel like he 106 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 9: was bigger, honest to God. I've given this a lot 107 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 9: of thought, and if the monster was in there, it 108 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 9: was buried deep. He wasn't the guy that he was 109 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 9: in the end when he was younger. But the guy 110 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 9: I knew if he went back to me on my 111 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 9: last day of seeing him, even on the days where 112 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 9: he was being a proper douche, that guy was not 113 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 9: capable of killing his mother. 114 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: I glanced at Ed as Sam casually floats this provocative take. Ed, 115 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: who received the brunt of Brett's bullying, says nothing. He 116 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: shifts in his chair and stares at his feet, fighting 117 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: the urge to respond. 118 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 9: He had obviously a case of ADHD. I think we 119 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 9: all knew that, and he was this hyperactive, was just 120 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 9: bouncing off the walls. But I could point one hundred people. 121 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 9: That doesn't mean they're going to become axe murderers. There 122 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 9: was obviously something that triggered it, or maybe there was 123 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 9: this hall man in balance that he could have been 124 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 9: one hundred things. 125 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: Sam wasn't the only Hedges brother who was close to Brett. Jack, 126 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: the middle of Ed's brothers, was friends with him too, 127 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: And like most brothers, Jack had an entirely different reaction 128 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: to the murders. 129 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 8: So when I found out you know what happened, it 130 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 8: wasn't so much a case of oh my god, this 131 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 8: is out of the blue. It was more, holy shit, 132 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 8: he did it. There are five families in that neighborhood 133 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 8: with kids that we would all socialize and so we 134 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 8: would all play together, play football, it'd mess around and yeah, 135 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 8: just generally hang around and do what kids do. The 136 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 8: problem that we had when we were younger is that 137 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 8: Brett was trying to make himself bigger, make himself more important. 138 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 8: He would try with me. He had no success. He 139 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 8: had to go smaller. He had to go for Ed. 140 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: Unlike Jack, Sam refuses to acknowledge that Brett mercilessly Bullieded. 141 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: So I decided to ask Sam about a pivotal moment 142 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: when Brett's violence was undeniable. A domestic dispute three years 143 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: prior to the murders. Brett, who was living with his dad, 144 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: Pete Rogers at the time, returned home one day and unprovoked, 145 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: severely beat his father. 146 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 9: Sure, me and my dad have had fights before in 147 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,599 Speaker 9: the bass, so you know the first sentencing where he 148 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 9: went away the first time. 149 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 4: I can get that. 150 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 9: You can have an argument, that things can get heated, 151 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 9: someone can swing a few fists. You're both big men. Now, 152 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 9: That's how men in England resolve their conflict. 153 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: Understand that this was not the usual father son squabble. 154 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: Brett hit so hard that he dislodged his own dad's eyeball. 155 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: The injury is so grave that Brett was convicted of 156 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: gross bodily harm and served thirty two months behind bars. 157 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 9: In most cases, they swing their fists around. Yes, a plausible, 158 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 9: it's believable. You've had a fight, but you don't kill 159 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 9: your mum. And yeah, just it baffled me. I don't 160 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 9: understand what happened to trigger that guy because it was hyperactive. 161 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 9: But it wasn't a killer, not a killer at all. 162 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: According to Jack, Brett was a powdered with a lit fuse. 163 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: It was only a matter of time before he heard someone. 164 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: But according to Sam, Brett was quote not a killer 165 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 1: at all. Sam still can't reconcile the boy he knew 166 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: with the man who committed the murders. And I get it, 167 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: that gap, that disbelief. I see where both Jack and 168 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: Sam are coming from. So I went looking for something concrete. 169 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: I went to the courthouse and I asked for the 170 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: transcripts of Brett Rogers trial, day by day, word for word, 171 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: And what I found there, well, it was more baffling 172 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: than black and white. 173 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 7: Thank you so much. 174 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 10: Have you had at least a relaxing weekends, and I 175 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 10: felt come in on a Sunday well out of the 176 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 10: timing was perfect because I was due to be an 177 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 10: a show yesterday and stay again night anyway, okay, good, 178 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 10: So just coming through Central. 179 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: London, ED left me in London to drive up to 180 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: his parents' house. He thought it might be helpful to 181 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: brief them on Wyam and Stanstead before I arrived for 182 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: our interview. I'm grateful for a few days out of 183 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: earshot from Ed. I knew some details of the trial 184 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: would be tough for him to hear. I met with 185 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: Simon Spence, a barrister and King's Council at Red Lion Chambers. 186 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: Unlike attorneys in the US, barristers can choose whether to 187 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: argue prosecution or defense. 188 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 10: I think it's very important to do both. I do 189 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 10: both that I do about fifty percent of each, and 190 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 10: it makes it much easier to see the other side 191 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 10: of the case. 192 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: In Brett Rodgers' case, Spence was brought on as lead prosecutor. 193 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: The trial began nearly a year after the murders May third, 194 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. 195 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 5: On Camp one. 196 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 11: He is charged with murder and the particulars of the 197 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 11: offense are that on the twenty second day of July 198 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 11: twenty fifteen, he murdered Jillian K. Phillips. 199 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: We have had voice actors recreate the proceedings. 200 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 11: Third day of July, he murdered David John Oakes. To 201 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 11: this indictment, he has pleaded not guilty, and it is 202 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 11: your charge to say, having heard the evidence, whether he 203 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 11: is guilty or not. 204 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: But the trial started off with the twist. Simon's team 205 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: assumed Brad would plead guilty the evidence was overwhelming, but 206 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: just weeks before the trial he. 207 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 10: Pleaded not guilty. I think the first thing the defense did, 208 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 10: although obviously I wasn't privy to what was going on 209 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 10: in the defense camp, was probably to obtain a psychiatric 210 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 10: report to see if he'd got any mental health defense 211 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 10: available to him. And that's very normal in murder cases, 212 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 10: whether they accept responsibility for the killing or not. If 213 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 10: you're defending a murder, you'll always get a psychiatric report 214 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 10: to see whether diminished responsibility can come into play. That 215 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 10: there are two different aspects to mental health defenses in 216 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 10: this country. There's insanity, which is very rare, which actually 217 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 10: you get a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity. 218 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 10: I've only had one in thirty six years. Far more 219 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 10: common is diminished responsibility, which reduced his murder to manslaughter. 220 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 10: So that's what they would have been looking for. But 221 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 10: there has to be a causal link between any mental 222 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 10: health problem and the killing. 223 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: But the doctors that examined Brett couldn't find that link. 224 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: Thus Brett had to stand trial as a mentally competent man. 225 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 10: We never saw the psychiatric report they got, so it 226 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 10: clearly wasn't favorable. 227 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: Brett's defense was looking to blame the murders on someone, 228 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: anyone else, so in his opening argument, Simon painted Brett 229 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: as the only person in the vicinity with the capacity 230 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: to do something this cruel to his own mom. He 231 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: then immediately informed the jury of the brutal beat down 232 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: Brett had given his father years before. 233 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 12: The jury should know that the defendant was a license 234 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 12: at the time and required to live at his mother's address. 235 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: After his fight with his father, Brett was forbidden by 236 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: the court to ever live with him again, so Brett's mom, Jillian, 237 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: invited her son to move back in with her, just 238 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: steps away from the Hedges house. Brett was on parole, 239 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: which meant that he had to constantly meet with court 240 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: officers and social workers to show evidence of his improving behavior. 241 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: One misstep and the door would slam all over again. 242 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: Framing the trial from this angle, Spence was shaping a 243 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: narrative casting Brett as a violent young man a full 244 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: mental capacity. Mental health was not to be considered that. 245 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 10: The whole way the defense presented their case was that 246 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 10: he got on well with his mum, didn't get on 247 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 10: very well with his dad, and of course he got 248 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 10: a previous for grieves bodily harm with intent on his father. 249 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 10: And the defense did quite a neat job actually of saying, well, 250 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 10: he had no reason to attack his mother, and he's 251 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 10: not somebody prone to mindless violence. It's just violence if 252 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 10: something triggers it. 253 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: There was no opening argument from the defense, therefore Spence 254 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: took his time laying out the facts. Spence then he 255 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: turned to the jury and asked appointed question the. 256 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 12: Issues for you in this case, members of the jury, 257 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 12: and whether you're sure that the killer of the two 258 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 12: people was this defendant, and whether you're sure of that 259 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 12: or may it have been an unknown third party. And 260 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 12: the other issue for you is if you're sure it 261 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 12: was the defendant, then what was his intention at the 262 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 12: time of the killings, because no other issue arises about 263 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 12: the defendant's mental state of the time. 264 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: As a reminder, on the night of July twenty second, 265 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, Ed Hedges returned to his childhood village of 266 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: Stanstead Mountfitchett for the first time in four years to 267 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: perform a charity comedy show. For all intents and purposes, 268 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: he was the local kid who made good. After a 269 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: few pints with friends, Ed walked back to his childhood 270 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: home and crawled into bed. That same night, just a 271 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: few yards away, Brett Rodgers murdered his mother, Jillian Phillips 272 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: and her friend David Oakes. Stabbed them repeatedly with multiple knives. 273 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: But out of the blue, Brett's defense presented an entirely 274 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: new story. 275 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 10: All of a sudden, we got this defense statement saying 276 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 10: Brett Rodgers had gone out to the shop fifteen minutes 277 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 10: and came back past this man with a knife, leaving 278 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 10: where my mum lived and walked into the scene of carnage. 279 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: In either version, Brett then made a call to the police. 280 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 12: Essex Police received a nine to nine to nine call 281 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 12: at their call center from an anonymous mail calling from 282 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 12: a mobile phone number saying there had been a murder 283 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 12: at twenty Benfield Gardens. When asked how he knew, the 284 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 12: caller said this, well, I'd come in and there's been 285 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 12: a murder. 286 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 10: I think the mobile phone signal wasn't great and the 287 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 10: first call probably cut off before he was able to 288 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 10: say anything meaningful. 289 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: Brett also called the police a second time. 290 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 10: The second call did get through and he reported that 291 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 10: his mother and her friend had been killed. 292 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: If he was the killer, why would he call the 293 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: police himself. 294 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 10: One of the peculiarities about it is he'd left the 295 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 10: house and was standing on a sort of little village 296 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 10: green thing to make the phone call, and from recollection, 297 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 10: I think a passer by actually saw him making the 298 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 10: phone call and they themselves made a. 299 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 12: Call to the police. 300 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 10: It was an odd feature of the case and one 301 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 10: that we never really got a true explanation for the 302 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 10: unusually long period of time between the two calls. Clearly 303 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 10: we used and the police had this theory that he'd 304 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 10: gone back to the house to do something before leaving 305 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 10: again to make the call. The problem with that is 306 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 10: we had no evidence that is what he did, but 307 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 10: it was a longer period of time than one would 308 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 10: have expected, particularly given the urgency of it. 309 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: Could this be when Brett went to Ed's house covered 310 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: in his own mother's blood. Even the investigators were unable 311 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: to confirm his whereabouts during this forty five minute window. 312 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: Not long after the police arrived to find Brett between 313 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: his house and the Hedges home. 314 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 12: He was described by one of the police officers as 315 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 12: looking vacant and he had something in his hand. According 316 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 12: to PC Nice, he was laughing. His hands were covered 317 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 12: in blood. He was asked by PC Scott's where the 318 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 12: blood had come from, and he pointed and nodded towards 319 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 12: number twenty and said in there. 320 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: Brett Rogers was arrested on the spot. 321 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 12: The police officers who entered the house were met with 322 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 12: a scene that can only be described as horrific. Gillian 323 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 12: Phillips was sprawled across a sofa in the living room. 324 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 12: She was already dead and was covered in congeal blood. 325 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 12: David Oakes was lying face down on the floor, his 326 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 12: face and neck covered in blood, although at that time 327 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 12: he was still breathing. 328 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: David Oaks survived into the early hours of the twenty third, 329 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 1: and then he too passed. 330 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 10: The forensic scientists took a huge number of photographs, not 331 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 10: all of which we showed to the jury. Some of 332 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 10: them were just too horrific to do so. The thing 333 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 10: that struck me most about it was the sheer quantity 334 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 10: of bloodshed. It literally was a blood bath. It was 335 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 10: literally as if someone had gone in and just chucked 336 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 10: red paint all over the place. It was up the stairs, 337 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 10: it was in the kitchen, it was on the landing upstairs, 338 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 10: in virtually every room in the house. The pathologist's findings 339 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 10: was that the two deceased remained downstairs at all time, 340 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 10: and that the distribution of blood up the stairs and 341 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 10: onto the landing upstairs was all secondary transfer from Brett himself, 342 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 10: and that made it a very unusual crime scene for me. 343 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: Bro It was taken to the station, where three mental 344 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: health professionals assessed him in the early hours of the morning. 345 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: He offered them nothing, not a word. He also refused 346 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: a urine test, which could have possibly lessened his sentence 347 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: if it had proven that illegal substances may have contributed 348 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: to his actions. Later at the hospital, a doctor treated 349 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: a deep cut on his hand for I was silent, 350 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: unwilling to explain. By the afternoon of July twenty third, 351 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: detectives were ready to hear his story, but when the 352 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: questions came, Brett gave them exactly what he'd given everyone else, silence. 353 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 10: He did come across as rather arrogant and very little remorse, which, 354 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 10: again from memory, is something I commented on in my 355 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 10: closing speech to the jury and said, well, if you 356 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 10: would come on this scene, and if you're close to 357 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 10: your mother, as he was professing to be, what one 358 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 10: would have expected to see a bit more emotional reaction. 359 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 10: He was quite cold. 360 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: The trial lasted two weeks. Police officers and forensic experts 361 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: took the stand through it all. Brett Rogers never a 362 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: word except in one moment, and there was. 363 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 10: One particular instance where Brett Rodgers kicked off in court, 364 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 10: although the jury were told they had to ignore it. 365 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 10: It's impossible to expect him to do that, and I 366 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 10: think that was a large part of their decision to 367 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 10: convict him. 368 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: On day three of the trial, as a forensic scientist 369 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: presented evidence of the crime scene, Brett stood up and shouted, 370 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: will you shut up? 371 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 11: You give me my heady. 372 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: He turned toward the glass stock door and tried to 373 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: make a run for it. When he realized it was locked, 374 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: he spun back around and lunged, slamming into the two 375 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: dock officers. One was knocked to the floor, the other 376 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: took a hit square to the face from the gallery. 377 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: His family shouted, his father, pleading Brett to stop. Then 378 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: the clerk hit the panic button. Do you remember what 379 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: might have been said that caused. 380 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 2: That reaction from Brett. 381 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 10: I don't think it was particularly he just suddenly started saying, 382 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 10: stop it, stop it, this is doing my head in. 383 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 10: And I think it was simply the expert saying, well, 384 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 10: there was a pattern of a trainer in this pool 385 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 10: of blood, and it had compared it to the trainers 386 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 10: that the defendant was wearing, and they matched, so he 387 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 10: must have put that footmark there. I was really quite 388 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 10: surprised that it triggered the reaction that it did, but 389 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 10: it perhaps just does demonstrate that actually there was something 390 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 10: about Brett Rodgers that he just couldn't control his temper. 391 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: January eighth, twenty seventeen, the jury deliberated for less than 392 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: a day. Brett Rodgers was sentenced, and before he was 393 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 1: taken away, the judge left him with the message. 394 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 11: The only surprise in this case was that you would 395 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 11: not admit that it was you who'd killed your mother 396 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 11: and mister Oaks. The consequence of your lies is that 397 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 11: no one apart from you knows exactly what happened at 398 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 11: your mother's house that evening. For murder, there is only 399 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 11: one sentence which is prescribed by law, and that is 400 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 11: imprisonment for life. 401 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: She continued unpacking his past, tracing the long line of pain. 402 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 11: And here lies the real tragedy of this case. You 403 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 11: are a man who attacks the people who loved you most. 404 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 11: Your father and your mother are the two people who 405 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 11: have loved you, looked after you, been with you, who 406 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 11: know you, and who wanted the best for you. But 407 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 11: look what you've done to them. Look how you have 408 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 11: repaid their kindness to you by your actions. You have 409 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 11: ruined your family and you have ruined your life. 410 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: Brett murdered brutally. There was no question he belonged behind bars. 411 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: But the truth is from the moment of his arrest, 412 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: Brett had already started to disappear. Even after it was 413 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: all over, he never offered a reason, never asked for forgiveness. 414 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: According to BBC Essex. He sat expressionless as the verdict 415 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: was read, mute, still drifting away. The idea of spending 416 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: the rest of his life behind bars must have been 417 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: terrifying for the twenty three year old, but what awaited 418 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: him in prison was far worse than lifelong incarceration. Six 419 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: months after his trial, Brett Rogers was deteriorating. Though he 420 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: had been convicted as a violent man with all of 421 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: his mental faculties, his psychological health had begun to fall apart. 422 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: Brett had become almost entirely mute, finding himself shuffled between 423 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: many prisons for behavioral issues. On January twenty seventh, he 424 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: was transferred to Her Majesty's Prison Long Larten, a high 425 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: security prison tucked away in the countryside to the outside world. 426 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: Long Lartin looks like any other British prison, red brick walls, 427 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: razor wire guards and crisp uniforms, but inside it holds 428 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: a rare distinction, a specialized mental health wing. And that's 429 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: where Brett was placed, not out of mercy, out of necessity. 430 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 1: We know this because of a report on Brett's entire 431 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: stay in progress was made public by the nonprofit hundred families. 432 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: It claims he was medicated antipsychotics daily, done so until 433 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: he became quote compliant, and slowly the reports changed. Eventually, 434 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: Brett was deemed well enough to join the general population. 435 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: Still high security, still violent offenders, but in theory, a 436 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: step closer to rehabilitation. There were no cellmates. Each prisoner 437 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: got his own room. Brett's stays became structured a violence 438 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: Reduction Plan, a daily program that helps prisoners understand the 439 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: origins of their rage and control their angry im pulses 440 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: before they act on them. As well as he was 441 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: assigned cleaning duties. According to his nurse, he responded well, 442 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: He followed instructions, he kept himself. In March twenty seventeen, 443 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: he was reassigned to the Perier Blue Wing, a quieter 444 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: block with only forty two cells. On the surface, it 445 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: seemed like progress, but it was here he came face 446 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: to face with his end. One month earlier, another prisoner 447 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: had arrived, Gary Lindley. He was serving life for his 448 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: role in a burglory gone wrong, an accessory to murder. 449 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,959 Speaker 1: Gary wasn't considered violent anymore. He was religious, spiritual, a 450 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: practicing Muslim. He prayed often and he took a liking 451 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: to Brett. Their relationship, if it can be called that, 452 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: had the shape of a big brother little brother dynamic. 453 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: Gary even vouched for him to other prisoners. By the spring, 454 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: Brett's records painted a picture of calm. He was eating well, 455 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: sleeping regularly. His violence reduction program was under review to 456 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: be removed entirely. His personal officer noted a change the 457 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: quote quiet and difficult to talk to end quote. Prisoner 458 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: was beginning to speak more with inmates and with staff. 459 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: Whatever demons had ruled him before, it seemed for a 460 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: moment they'd quieted until June seventh. That afternoon, around two 461 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,719 Speaker 1: thirty pm, a guard noticed Brett had forgotten his work boots. 462 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: He sent him back to his cell to change. Nothing unusual. 463 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: What happened next would take hours to uncover. At three 464 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: fifteen pm, another prisoner who will call Ellis, spotted Gary 465 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: Linley and another inmate, Billy White, inside of brett cell. 466 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: The two were seated casually on the heating pipes that 467 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: ran across the back wall. Ellis noted that Gary was 468 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: rolling a joint. By four to ten, Ellis saw the 469 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 1: two men again, this time in the kitchen. He asked 470 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: where Brett was. Gary replied, quote, He's asleep in his cell. 471 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: Dinner was called medication rounds began. Brett didn't show. Ellis 472 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: walked to a cell and knocked. No answer. Ellis testified 473 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: that he peered through the narrow window in the cell door, 474 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: but it was too dark to see anything, so he left. 475 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: A few minutes later, another officer was sent to find Brett. 476 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 1: He opened the cell door, called his name, no response. However, 477 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 1: he spots Brett lying in bed, the covers pulled neatly 478 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: over his head, still wearing his work boots. That was 479 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: the first sign something wasn't right. Protocol kicked in. A 480 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: second officer was called in and they entered together. As 481 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: the pair approached Brett, they noticed he was pale, unresponsive, 482 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: and motionless. They issued a code blue. CPR began immediately. 483 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: The nurse arrived. Oxygen was administered, a defribillator was used, 484 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: but there was nothing left to revive. At six twenty 485 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: four pm, paramedics pronounced Brett Rogers dead. The cause compression 486 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: to the neck. He had been strangled, but there were 487 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: other details, ones that would disturb even the most seasoned investigators. 488 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: A Yin Yang symbol had been crudely drawn across Brett's 489 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: face in blue marker, and then there was a note. 490 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: It wasn't discovered during the search. It was handed over 491 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: by another prisoner who found it lying on the floor. 492 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: Scrawled across the paper. 493 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 4: Was a message, I was ordered by my God to 494 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 4: free Brett Rodgers. I know you will not see it 495 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 4: this way, but that is between you and God. I 496 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 4: am of sound mind. Can I speak to the governor? 497 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: The handwriting match Gary Lindley's. With little questioning, Both he 498 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: and Billy White confessed. They claim that God had spoken 499 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: to them the week before that they were chosen together. 500 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: They'd made what they described as an inter denominational pact, 501 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: a shared spiritual mission to rid Brett of his demons, 502 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: a cleansing they believed, a spiritual execution. In November of 503 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, Gary Linley and Billy White were convicted of 504 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: Brett's murder. They are still serving that sentence. Brett Rogers 505 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: had committed an unforgivable act. He belonged behind bars, but 506 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: whatever he deserved, it probably wasn't this. 507 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 6: It's exciting. Your news is exciting. American crime is exciting. 508 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 6: But it's so weird how we're fascinated by you because 509 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 6: we've got knife crime. We're like, it's terrible, and then 510 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 6: like they'll be like four people were shot today, were like, oh, 511 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 6: with a gun, like cowboys. It feels Hollywood. You've got 512 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 6: Hollywood crime. Why did you put it on TV? That's 513 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 6: my biggest question. I think it's like a game show. 514 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 6: I didn't know if they were going to convict the 515 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 6: dude or give them a dodge Ram. It's amazing. 516 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 7: The train will depart in three minutes. Please mind the gap. 517 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: I'm on the train to Stanstead. Ed's going to pick 518 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: me up after the quick forty five minute trip. But 519 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: I'm starting to think at has a point the American 520 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: and British judicial systems are vastly different, and the black 521 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: and white answers I was looking for in the trial 522 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: transcripts they simply weren't there. I think, as I'm listening 523 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: back to the interviews, I'm struck by the fact that 524 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: despite all the vivid details of Brett Rodgers' last days, 525 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: I haven't been able to create a distinct profile him 526 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: or his motive for murder. If anything, I feel like 527 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: I've been told stories about three different brets. 528 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 10: If you're defending a murder, you'll always get a psychiatric report. 529 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 10: We never saw report, so it clearly wasn't favorable. 530 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: The first is hard to swallow. This Brett had no 531 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: diagnosable trial admissible psychoses, so the British judicial system determined 532 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: him fit to stand trial as a saying, albeit angry 533 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: man and yeah, just it baffled me. 534 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 9: I don't understand what happened to trigger that guy, because 535 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 9: he was hyperactive, but. 536 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 7: He wasn't a kuila. 537 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,479 Speaker 1: The second interpretation I heard from Sam, Brett was low 538 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: key cool. He loved a prank, was a constant cut 539 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: up in school, and was a really good guy who 540 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: would have likely outgrown these bad boy tendencies. Something big 541 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: must have tripped a circuit that night, almost like a 542 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: schizophrenic outburst. Because Brett Rogers was not a maniacal murderer. 543 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 8: It wasn't so much a case of oh my god, 544 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 8: this is the blue. It was more holy shit, he 545 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 8: did it. 546 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: The third version of Brett is that he was simply heartless, 547 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: a ticking time bomb, born with such demons in his 548 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: head that it was only a matter of time before 549 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: this happened. No reason or inciting incident was ever needed. 550 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: Just look at the way he almost killed his father 551 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: with his bare fists headed into Stanstead. I'm left to 552 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: choose from one sane, two insane, or three somewhere in between, 553 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: and none of them point to an obvious reason why 554 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: he ended up on the hedges doorstep. 555 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 11: We are approaching our final stop, Stansted Mountvitchet. 556 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: However, there are two other people in this story who 557 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: should have a clearer perception of Brett Ed's parents. Not 558 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: only did they help raise him along with the herd 559 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: of neighborhood boys who would come and go after school 560 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: and on the weekends, but they also survived that horrible 561 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: night along with their son. Thinking about them, my mind 562 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: kept going back to something Jack Hedges said to me 563 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: when we sat down. 564 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 7: Can you give a little bit of explanation, because that 565 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 7: one boggled my mind. 566 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: Before I came to the UK, I rang Jack to 567 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: introduce myself and he said he was surprised I even 568 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,919 Speaker 1: wanted to speak to him. When I explained I wanted 569 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: to ask about Brett knocking on his parents' door minutes 570 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: after murdering his own mom. He told me he didn't 571 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: know anything about it. No one had told. 572 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 7: Him that this could happen to a family, and that 573 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 7: you would speak of the murders, but not speak of 574 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 7: the potential breaking and entering part. Why why didn't you 575 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 7: know about that? Because I would have reacted very badly 576 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 7: to that. 577 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 8: If I'd known about that, then what I would have 578 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 8: done is gone round, changed up the locks, and looked 579 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 8: at all of the windows, and I would have gone 580 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 8: to him and said, here's like a five grand bill 581 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 8: to fix your house. 582 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 7: Go do it. 583 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 6: I believe that's why they didn't tell me. 584 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 7: Did you follow up with your mom afterwards? Say? What 585 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:00,919 Speaker 7: the hell? 586 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 5: No? 587 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 7: I didn't. There was no follow up. So this is 588 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 7: just me reconfirming that to you. Technically that conversation, it 589 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 7: still hasn't happened. 590 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: How does something so big, like the fact that a 591 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: murderer showed up on your family's doorstep just slipped past you? 592 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: Was this just British stoicism, the famous stiff upper lip? 593 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: Or am I missing something that explains why no one 594 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: in this family ever spoke a word of it? 595 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 7: Welcome, disgusted, please mind the gap? 596 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: And then I got the phone call from one of 597 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: Ed's earliest collaborators, the comedian who'd mentored ed in London 598 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: and the director of his Edinburgh show. 599 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 7: So it do all came. 600 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 5: Crashing down around the same time when I started doubting 601 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 5: his story. I didn't find anything that backed up his 602 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 5: side of the story. 603 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: Next time on Wisecrack, all right, so we're walking right 604 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: outside of Fred's house. 605 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the bedroom window. 606 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 13: Oh my god, there's something going on out there, and 607 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 13: I don't know what it is. I was petrified. I 608 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 13: thought we'd getting broken into. By that time, there was 609 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 13: helicopters and everything going out there. There was a lot 610 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 13: of place running up the alleyway, and that bit there 611 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 13: was like the apocalypse. 612 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: Wisecrack is a production of Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts 613 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: in association with Star Wit Productions. I'm your host Jody Tovey. 614 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: The show was written by Charles Forbes stand up comedy 615 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: written and performed by Edges, with additional writing contributions by 616 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: Charles Forbes. Executive producers for Tenderfoot TV are Donald Albright 617 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: and Payne Lindsay. Executive producers for Star White Productions are 618 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: Jody Tovey and Charles Forbes. Lead producer is Alex Vespestad. 619 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: With additional production by Stephen Perez, Joe Grizzle, ja Jah Muhammad, 620 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: Jamie Albright, and Jordan Foxworthy. Lead editor is Stephen Perez, 621 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: with additional editing by Dylan Harrington and Liam Luxon. Coordinating 622 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 1: producers are John Street and Tracy Kaplan. Research by Jim 623 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: Nally and Misty Showalter. Original music by Jay Ragsdale with 624 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: additional music by Makeup and Vanity Set, mixed by Cooper Skinner. 625 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: Artwork by Byron McCoy. Special thanks to Aorn Rosenbaum and 626 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 1: the team at Uta, Nate Ranson, Alexander Kaplan and the 627 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: Synergy Clubhouse, and the Nord Group. For more podcasts like wisecrack, 628 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app, or visit 629 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: us at tenderfoot dot tv. Thanks for listening. Episode four 630 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 1: will release next week, but you can binge the rest 631 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: of the season right now, completely add free by subscribing 632 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: to Tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or at tenderfootplus dot com.