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Speaker 1: When we first recorded our interview with Dennis and Lee Horton,

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Speaker 1: they had just gotten out of prison on a sentence

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Speaker 1: commutation less than a year prior, and that happened in

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Speaker 1: large part because of the incredible efforts of John Fetterman.

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Speaker 1: After losing the twenty sixteen Democratic Senate primary, John set

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Speaker 1: his sights on winning the Lieutenant governorship, which put him

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Speaker 1: on the Pardons and Parole Board. He then campaigned his

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Speaker 1: fellow board members for the Horton's clemency, and despite a

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Speaker 1: denial in twenty nineteen, John never gave up on the Hortons.

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Speaker 1: By the time we recorded this episode, Dennis and Lee

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Speaker 1: were already hard at work campaigning for John on his

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two Senate race. It was truly surreal to

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Speaker 1: see Dennis and Lee reacting to the win on social media.

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Speaker 1: What a turn of faith from wrongfully convicted to having

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Speaker 1: a true friend in the United States Senate. We're re

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Speaker 1: releasing this episode to congratulate our great friends Dennis, Lee

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Speaker 1: and John. On May thirty first, nineteen ninety three, Dennis

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Speaker 1: Horton went to his brother Lee's home for a Memorial

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Speaker 1: Day weekend cookout. Later in the day, they visited their

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Speaker 1: father in North Philadelphia, as well as their childhood friend,

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Speaker 1: Robert Leif. Unbeknownst to the Hortons, Robert Leaf had committed

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Speaker 1: an armed robbery earlier that day, in which two women

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Speaker 1: were injured and one man was fatally shot. The Hortons

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Speaker 1: pulled up to their friend Robert Leaf on the street

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Speaker 1: and made plans to watch a basketball game back at Lee's.

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Speaker 1: Robert asked the brothers to meet him one block up,

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Speaker 1: where he got into their car with a gun. Police

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Speaker 1: had been following Robert and immediately pulled them over, where

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Speaker 1: all three men were arrested. The two injured women, who

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Speaker 1: initially had said that there were only two arm robbers,

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Speaker 1: gave a shaky idea of all three men, sending them

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Speaker 1: to trial together. Robert Leaf's attorney used confusion amongst the

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Speaker 1: witnesses over them the identities of the three men to

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Speaker 1: change the narrative from Robert Leaf as the shooter to Dennis,

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Speaker 1: delivering a lighter sentence to the actual culprit, while the

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Speaker 1: Hortons were sentenced to life without parole. Years later, a

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Speaker 1: statement by Robert Leaf admitting his role and excluding the

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Speaker 1: Horton brothers was unearthed along with the fact that police

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Speaker 1: had identified Robert Leaf as the shooter from the very start. However,

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Speaker 1: with this new evidence being ruled inadmissible on purely procedural grounds,

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Speaker 1: it took the tireless advocacy of Pennsylvania Lieutenant Governor John

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Speaker 1: Fetterman to win a commutation and release for the brothers

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Speaker 1: after nearly three long decades in prison. This is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Best advice to you right

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Speaker 1: now is fasten your seatbelt because this is going to

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Speaker 1: be a crazy ride that you're about to go on.

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Speaker 1: But before I introduced the two brothers who were wrongful

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Speaker 1: convicted of the same crime together and ended up serving

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Speaker 1: almost twenty seven years together in the same cell for

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Speaker 1: the crime that didn't commit. I just want to say

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Speaker 1: that this is Philadelphia in the nineties. You've heard stories

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Speaker 1: on here before about Philadelphia in the nineties, and it

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Speaker 1: was it was the time and place where a black

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Speaker 1: man had a better chance of getting justice in Philadelphia,

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Speaker 1: Mississippi than in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And this is another example

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Speaker 1: of that. So, without further ado, let me introduce to you.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have these guys on the show

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Speaker 1: today because there's such inspiring people. Lee and Dennis Horton,

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Speaker 1: the brothers Horton. Welcome to Ronful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: All right, good afternoon. How's everybody doing out there.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad to be here. Thank you for inviting us on.

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Speaker 1: So let's get right into it. First of all, I

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Speaker 1: want to say to both of you guys that while

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Speaker 1: I am obviously delighted to have you on this show,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry that you're here because of what you had

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Speaker 1: to go through and it should have never happened. So

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Speaker 1: let's go back to the beginning. I'm talking about how

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Speaker 1: was childhood for you guys growing up together while you

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Speaker 1: moved to Philly in seventy seven, right, but give us

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Speaker 1: a quick look at what your childhood was like.

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Speaker 2: So when we was young growing up, we lived uneventful

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Speaker 2: but a wonderful life.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: My mom and my father was married in the early sixties.

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Speaker 2: Four of us four kids. We grew up in some

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Speaker 2: of the roughest places in the city. But our family,

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Speaker 2: my mom, my grandmother, my father always instilled in us

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Speaker 2: that you had to work for what you wanted their life,

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Speaker 2: and so we started working at an early age. My

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Speaker 2: mom and father. Unfortunately they split up in nineteen seventy two.

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Speaker 2: My mom, she was trying to take care of four

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Speaker 2: kids on our own. We wind up moving to the projects,

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Speaker 2: which was at the time East Falls Projects. I was

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Speaker 2: around twelve years old, my brother was at the time.

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Speaker 2: So the projects was a rough project. You know, you

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Speaker 2: had to prove the people up there that you was

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Speaker 2: willing to fight in order for you to be able

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Speaker 2: to stay, or they chased you out the projects. That's

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Speaker 2: how it was. And so I had got into a

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Speaker 2: fight with an individual and I wanted to fight. That

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Speaker 2: was a blessing to some degree, but it was also

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Speaker 2: a curse because now I was at eyes with a

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Speaker 2: lot of guys my age twelve or thirteen year olds

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Speaker 2: in the projects. And one day I wound up on

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Speaker 2: the wrong side of the projects when we was approached

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Speaker 2: by a group of individuals and it was maybe about

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Speaker 2: twenty something thirty guys, and they approached us and they

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Speaker 2: wanted me to fight a guy. And you know, there

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Speaker 2: was a bunch of guys that was about to jump us,

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Speaker 2: and then these other guys came out of nowhere and

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Speaker 2: came to our rescue. And it was only a few

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Speaker 2: of them, but they were like the neighborhood tough guys

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Speaker 2: to some degree. One of these guys who would become

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Speaker 2: a really good friend of mine was an individual named

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Speaker 2: Rob Relief. And so I fell in with these guys

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Speaker 2: and we became good friends. He came to my house,

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Speaker 2: stayed at my house, slept at my house, ate at

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Speaker 2: my house. My mom to somebody, rebecame his mom. And

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Speaker 2: then in nineteen eight three, we moved out of the projects.

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Speaker 2: By that time we kind of veered off a little bit,

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Speaker 2: although I would go see my friends who were still

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Speaker 2: living in the projects and some living in North Philadelphia,

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Speaker 2: from town to town.

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Speaker 1: And so now we move up towards the time of

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Speaker 1: the actual crime, and I'm talking about Memorial Day weekend,

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Speaker 1: May thirty first, nineteen ninety three. So there was an

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Speaker 1: arm robbery at Toledo's Bar. Now, initial descriptions say it

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Speaker 1: was two men, but later it was changed to three.

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Speaker 1: One man with a twenty two caliber semi automatic rifle

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Speaker 1: and another with a black pistol robbed the bar and

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Speaker 1: its patrons. Samuel Alimo, six foot three and over two

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Speaker 1: hundred pounds, wrestled with the gunman for the gun, but

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Speaker 1: was overpowered and was shot and killed. Blues our Cella

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Speaker 1: and Louis Martinez were injured, but both recovered, and a

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Speaker 1: witness described chasing after the pleaing assailants who saw them

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Speaker 1: in a small blue car and supplied police with a

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Speaker 1: partial license plate number. And again, remember this is Philadelphia

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Speaker 1: in the nineties, So we'll get to the myriad problems

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Speaker 1: with the state story, but first let's hear your story.

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Speaker 1: So it's Memorial Day weekend, May thirty first, nineteen ninety three. Lee.

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Speaker 1: You had four kids, right, including a two week old baby,

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Speaker 1: and at the time, Dennis, you were just recently engaged

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Speaker 1: to be married, and had also recently been badly injured

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Speaker 1: at work. And we're recovering, right, so you were in

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Speaker 1: absolutely no condition to be engaging in hand to hand

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Speaker 1: combat wrestling right with a very large man, right strong man.

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Speaker 1: So can you take us through that day, the day

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Speaker 1: that this armed robbery and murder, this whole tragedy happened.

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Speaker 4: So Lee and his wife invited me and my fiancee

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Speaker 4: over to his house. So of course I went to

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Speaker 4: Lee's house, had a cookout with him and his wife

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Speaker 4: and his kids, and later on that evening we decided

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Speaker 4: we was going to take a ride. You know, we've

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Speaker 4: been in the house all day. Stopped by my father's

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Speaker 4: house see him, and then Lee was going to stop

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Speaker 4: by just see a few guys that he knew, and

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Speaker 4: we headed for North Philadelphia, where my father lived at

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Speaker 4: the time, and we swung by his house, but his

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Speaker 4: light was out so he was sleep So Lee said, okay,

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Speaker 4: let's stop around Leaf's house. So, you know, we drove

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Speaker 4: around Leaf's house. He was standing out on the corner

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Speaker 4: with some other guys and Lee beat the horn and

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Speaker 4: Leif came over to the car, letting him and Lee

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Speaker 4: talk for a little bit. So Robert Leif was supposed

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Speaker 4: to come back to Lee's house. We was going to

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Speaker 4: watch the basketball game. So Leif said, pull up a

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Speaker 4: block and I'll be there. And I got to just

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Speaker 4: take care of something real quick, and we pulled up

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Speaker 4: to the block and Leif came maybe about ten to

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Speaker 4: fifteen minutes later, got in the car, and then we

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Speaker 4: pulled off, and about a couple of blocks later, we

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Speaker 4: saw sirens and we pulled over and the police jumped

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Speaker 4: out of their vans and cars with guns drawn and

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Speaker 4: told us to get out.

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Speaker 3: Of the car and we got out of the car

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Speaker 3: and they.

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Speaker 4: Handcuffed us and they put us into the paddy wagon

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Speaker 4: and they took us to the hospital when identification to

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Speaker 4: take place, and all I remember is that the van

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Speaker 4: doors opened up, and next thing you know, I've seen it.

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Speaker 4: I think two ladies point to rob Belief and say, yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's the guy right there. And then they said, well,

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Speaker 4: what about these other guys and they said, yeah, them too,

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Speaker 4: They were with them too, And then they shut the

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Speaker 4: doors back and then that was it.

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Speaker 3: And next thing you know, we were.

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Speaker 4: Down the roundhouse where they charged you for a homicide.

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Speaker 1: So, okay, right away we see problems emerge with what

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Speaker 1: the witnesses are describing. Right the alleged number of individuals

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Speaker 1: involved in the robbery went from went up fifty percent,

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Speaker 1: right from two to three. And when you're there at

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Speaker 1: the hospital in the police paddy wagon right outside the hospital,

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Speaker 1: with the witnesses saying yeah them too. Also, one of

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Speaker 1: the witnesses described a blue and gave a partial plate number,

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Speaker 1: So did that match your own vehicles?

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Speaker 2: The only witness who claimed to see the car said

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Speaker 2: it was a blue small car. It was a suppos

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Speaker 2: been a Chevy Chavette. He said the name of the

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Speaker 2: car in his statement.

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Speaker 3: Now Lee's car is a Priest Classic.

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Speaker 2: A four door large car.

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Speaker 3: Two tones, two different colors.

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Speaker 2: But this witness, for some reason, we could never find

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Speaker 2: him and never bring him the trial. The person the

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Speaker 2: police put down is giving out this partial plate number.

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Speaker 2: When we got the witness on the stand, she said,

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Speaker 2: right then there, I never gave a police anything. I

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Speaker 2: never saw a car, So how could I have ever

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Speaker 2: given him The name is on this paper though they

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Speaker 2: said you gave it to him, she said, it's impossible.

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Speaker 2: I didn't see a car. I didn't give him anything.

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Speaker 2: And the thing about the officers who did this first thing,

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Speaker 2: you got to give you a context to who these

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Speaker 2: officers are. The first officer was somebody who had strangled

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Speaker 2: a guy to the early on, and then later, right

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Speaker 2: after we was arrested, he shot a guy unarmed in

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Speaker 2: a car. The second officer, she was involved in internal

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Speaker 2: fears of investigation about a law quantity of drugs being

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Speaker 2: found in the police station and them suspecting it or

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Speaker 2: connected it to her. As you start appeeling the layers away,

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Speaker 2: you start seeing that it's more to this than just

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Speaker 2: the police picking up some guys and they were involved.

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Speaker 1: So I have to ask, do you think that they

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Speaker 1: knew from the beginning that you guys had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with this.

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Speaker 4: That's a really good question, and our heart of hearts,

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Speaker 4: we believe in the beginning maybe they wasn't sure, but

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Speaker 4: as things begin to unfold, they had to be clear

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Speaker 4: that we wasn't involved in it, just didn't care. And

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Speaker 4: the reason why we know is because the prosecuted them

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Speaker 4: came to us with the deal. It was like five

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Speaker 4: to ten years, and we were like, we're innocent, We're

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Speaker 4: not taking any deal. Why should we take any deal

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Speaker 4: to go to jail when we didn't do anything? And

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Speaker 4: now it was sort of like, okay, you won't take

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Speaker 4: the deal, all right, Well, the chip's going to forward.

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Speaker 1: They made right, And it's very uncommon that in the

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Speaker 1: crime as serious as this one armed robbery where someone

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Speaker 1: was killed, right, that they're going to offer someone two

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Speaker 1: guys in this case five years.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 1: You know, you don't have to be a legal scholar

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Speaker 1: to figure this one out. So now we get to

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Speaker 1: the trial and all three of you, Lee, Dennis, and

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Speaker 1: Robert Leaf are tried together and they have three witnesses.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm going to put witnesses in quotation marks here.

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Speaker 1: Three of them came to trial, and they eventually identified

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Speaker 1: Dennis as the shooter. But did they have any physical

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Speaker 1: evidence at all, any fingerprints, any security footage.

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Speaker 2: There were no security footage. But they had was they

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Speaker 2: actually had the gun, they said with the murdered weapon.

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Speaker 2: They never actually could trace it to any bullets they

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Speaker 2: got out of the body. They didn't match. But this

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Speaker 2: is the gun that Leif had on him. He left

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Speaker 2: the gun in the car. The cops retrieved it and

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Speaker 2: when they checked it, it had fingerprints. But we've been always

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Speaker 2: trying to get these fingerprints checked because they could never

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Speaker 2: trace them to any of us. They took all of

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Speaker 2: our fingerprints, they didn't fit any of us. Now, the

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Speaker 2: way that my brother got to become the shooter is

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Speaker 2: a clear case of mistaken identific Initially in the case,

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Speaker 2: they all identified Robert Leeve as the shooter. And this

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Speaker 2: where the whole case turns. If this don't ever happen,

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Speaker 2: we probably would have walked. The one witness would identify

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Speaker 2: different person every hearing. When she identified Robert leave Robert

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Speaker 2: Leaf's attorney, he would read the noose some testimony of

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Speaker 2: her identifying my brother, until it got to the point

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Speaker 2: where when the judge asked her, well, who are you

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Speaker 2: saying did this? She said, I'm going to say it's

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Speaker 2: the one right there, and she was identifying me, and

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Speaker 2: we had already told the court that they was identified

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Speaker 2: as base where we were sitting at, so we switched seats.

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Speaker 2: So when we switched seats, she was identified based on

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Speaker 2: who the witness before her told her to identify, and

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Speaker 2: then she thought that the person was sitting in that seat,

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Speaker 2: but it wound up being me Lee Prton. When she

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Speaker 2: heard my name, she said, hold it, what's the name?

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Speaker 2: And the jadge said, why do you want to know

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Speaker 2: the name? Because, uh, Dennis did it. It's Dennis. He

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Speaker 2: said Dennis, and then she said, yeah, I heard him.

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Speaker 2: They was calling Dennis. And then after that we were

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Speaker 2: in the case and they knew that this woman just

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Speaker 2: had made this up out of the sky just right

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Speaker 2: then and there. Everybody refused to pull back and they

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Speaker 2: could have corrected that right then and there and said,

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Speaker 2: well hold up, Yonner, she's wrong. Mister Leaf was wearing

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Speaker 2: a red jacket. We know that for sure. That's a fact.

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Speaker 2: They identified him as a shooter. That's a fact. They

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Speaker 2: didn't say any of that. They just let the witnesses

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Speaker 2: go on and on and on with these wrong identifications.

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Speaker 2: And this woman had identified every last one of us

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Speaker 2: as a shooter at one given time.

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Speaker 6: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company,

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Speaker 6: and by Accenture, a global professional services company with leading

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Speaker 6: capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the

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Speaker 6: criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG

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Speaker 6: pro Bono Program, which provides free legal services and other

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Speaker 6: support to men, nonprofit organizations, and individuals most in need

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Speaker 6: as part of Accentsure's commitment to racial and civil justice.

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Speaker 6: Accenture's Legal Access Program provides pro bono legal services in

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Speaker 6: partnership with more than forty organizations bringing meaningful change to

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Speaker 6: people and communities worldwide.

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Speaker 4: Three weeks prior to our arrest, I had injured my

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Speaker 4: leg on my job in such a fashion that I

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Speaker 4: needed to acl repair. The holiday was on a Monday.

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Speaker 4: I was supposed to go talk about the day that

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Speaker 4: week I was going to have the surgery done. I

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Speaker 4: just came off the crutches, so when we were arrested,

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Speaker 4: it was impossible for me to be able to wrestle

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Speaker 4: with this guy.

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Speaker 3: I think they said he was like sixty four sixty

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Speaker 3: three something like that.

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Speaker 4: I was supposed to have overpowered him, wrestled all the

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Speaker 4: way to the ground with this guy, overpowered the gun

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Speaker 4: out of his hand, and then after I was supposed

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Speaker 4: to have shot him, I was supposed to ran away

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Speaker 4: at us as I could. There was no way I

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Speaker 4: could run on it laid at all, and my medical

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Speaker 4: records and all that would have shown that would have

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Speaker 4: proved that, and this would have disqualified me from even

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Speaker 4: remotely possibly being the shooter.

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Speaker 3: And the thing is they knew this, but nobody cared.

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Speaker 1: So you both had different lawyers, So two people who

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Speaker 1: were supposed to be working on your behalf, what were

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Speaker 1: they doing with all of this information? At trial, we.

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Speaker 2: Made the mistake of a friend of my mom's told

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Speaker 2: her that their son could be a good lawyer for us,

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Speaker 2: and we accepted that, but he wasn't a criminal defense attorney.

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Speaker 2: He had not tried one criminal case, and he wound

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Speaker 2: up being a person putting our defense together. My lawyer

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Speaker 2: had been retired, and he was kind of older, and

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Speaker 2: he was a little out of step. Were just not

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Speaker 2: prepared for a capital case. Now, the difference is Robert

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Speaker 2: Leef was prepared. He knew the system and he knew

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Speaker 2: how to work the system. Were naive. We thought that

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Speaker 2: we were innocent and it was going to be shown

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Speaker 2: and it never was.

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Speaker 1: Like literally, if you put this in the movie, you say, well,

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Speaker 1: one guy's represented by a friend of a friend who

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Speaker 1: never tried a criminal case before this capital murder we're

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Speaker 1: talking about it. And the other guys tried by a

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Speaker 1: guy that they literally pulled out a retirement and wheeled

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Speaker 1: them into the courtroom. You guys didn't even know that

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Speaker 1: you're doomed. You're thinking, hey, we go in tell the truth.

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Speaker 1: You were the only guys in the courtroom telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: That's the only problem, right, and that doesn't work.

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Speaker 2: And that's the thing that you know, even now gets

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Speaker 2: to me a little bit because I spent twenty seven

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Speaker 2: years in prison when this be nipping of it early on,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't have to never go to prison after

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Speaker 2: twenty seven years. You know, sometimes in your mind you think,

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Speaker 2: well you should have took there, But what would we

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Speaker 2: have said. We didn't commit the crime, We didn't know

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Speaker 2: anything about it. Took us twenty eight years to learn

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Speaker 2: enough about this case to be able to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: Where though we knew some of the facts that happened,

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Speaker 2: we had to find in the police file. They went

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Speaker 2: to court knowing that these witnesses was identifying my brother,

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Speaker 2: but they had determined that Leif was the shooter.

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Speaker 3: The prosecutors knew this, the detectives knew this. But this

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Speaker 3: is the problem with the system. Nobody cared about the truth.

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Speaker 3: It was about let's get the conviction at all costs.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So they knew you weren't involved from the jump,

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Speaker 1: but since you wouldn't plead to lesser charges that you

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Speaker 1: knew and I think they knew were false, they threw

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Speaker 1: you into this kangaroo court situation tied to Robert Leif,

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Speaker 1: who was the actual culprit here, and they let the

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Speaker 1: chips fall where they may. That's how they put it, right.

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Speaker 1: So then you were represented by people who had no

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Speaker 1: business whatsoever really even being in this courtroom, right, I

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Speaker 1: mean definitely not as lawyers in a capital murder case,

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Speaker 1: and you're literally on trial for your lives. So what

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Speaker 1: was that like?

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Speaker 2: I can tell you what it was like. Robert Leif's

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Speaker 2: attorney communicated with our attorneys and they spold the head

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Speaker 2: a joint defense, and right towards the time the jury

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Speaker 2: was going out the deliberation, I remember my attorney looking

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Speaker 2: back and saying, I don't think that his attorney was

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Speaker 2: with us, And I said, do you think like he

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Speaker 2: was doing everything in his power to get his client

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Speaker 2: the best possible verdict he could get. He used the

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Speaker 2: defense to paint a picture so that we would wind

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Speaker 2: up with the most out of this and his client would,

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Speaker 2: if not walk free, get the least.

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Speaker 1: So the jury goes out, they come back in four

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Speaker 1: or five hours later. Did you guys have hope that

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Speaker 1: they were going to actually see the light that you

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Speaker 1: were going to be vindicated.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it was just a blur of a moment.

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Speaker 4: Of course, you hold out hope that the system is

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Speaker 4: going to do the right thing. I mean we were

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Speaker 4: raised like everybody else, watching police shows and court shows,

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Speaker 4: and from what they show on TV, it always seemed

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Speaker 4: like the system does the right thing, everything would turn

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Speaker 4: out right, even though everything was looking wrong.

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Speaker 2: We leave the system to the point where I had

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Speaker 2: put an application to the police force prior to being arrested,

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Speaker 2: Like around the time when I got convicted, my wife

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Speaker 2: received the letter saying that I was accepted to go

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Speaker 2: to the next phase.

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Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. I mean, it's like you had this was

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Speaker 1: like an alternate reality, the life that should have been right.

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Speaker 1: But okay, so the jury comes back in and the

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Speaker 1: verdict is guilty. I mean, can you tell us about

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Speaker 1: that moment. It's I mean, it's obviously horrible for anyone

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Speaker 1: who experiences it, but here it's worse because one brother

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Speaker 1: had to hear the other brother being declared guilty, followed

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Speaker 1: by being declared guilty himself.

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Speaker 2: I gotta tell you, being the oldest, I probably was

400
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Speaker 2: the weakest. When I heard the verdict. It was like

401
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Speaker 2: I was in a state of shock and my legs buckled,

402
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Speaker 2: and I remember I felt like I was going down

403
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Speaker 2: to the floor, and I remember hearing my Grandmam's voice

404
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Speaker 2: in the back saying, stand up real loud, don't you

405
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Speaker 2: fall on that ground. Stand up that part. I ain't

406
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Speaker 2: never gonna forget.

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Speaker 3: When they've been to divertict.

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Speaker 4: I felt like I was in the twilight zone, like

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Speaker 4: this wasn't happening, Like somebody's going to come in and

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Speaker 4: say we're just kidding. This is not how it's supposed

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Speaker 4: to end for us. I mean, we played by the rules.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: We were taught to work hard for whatever we get

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Speaker 4: in life, and that's what we did. We were taught

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Speaker 4: to mind the people in the neighborhood, the elders, to

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Speaker 4: respect people. You know that this don't happen to decent people.

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Speaker 2: And it was crazy because he immediately says this life

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Speaker 2: without the possibility for rule immediately. And you know, when

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Speaker 2: our family got a chance to speak on our behalf,

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Speaker 2: each one of our family members got up there. They

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Speaker 2: said that we didn't commit the crime, and the judge

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Speaker 2: got bad at some point. I think he told my

423
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Speaker 2: sister that if you're going to say that they didn't

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Speaker 2: commit this crime, then don't need to get up y'

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Speaker 2: I have heard enough of that.

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Speaker 4: So, I mean, we were distraught beyond words can describe it.

427
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Speaker 4: I became angry, angry at the system, angry at myself

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Speaker 4: or allowing myself to even be in that situation around

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Speaker 4: a guy like this. And as time went on, my

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Speaker 4: grandmother came to see us, my grandmother and my mother,

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Speaker 4: and we would just complain and complain about everything that

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Speaker 4: was going on. We was talking about how dark prison was,

433
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Speaker 4: you know, how cold it always seems to be in there.

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Speaker 4: You know how these folks around here they don't care

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Speaker 4: about anything. And I remember my grandmother said, you know,

436
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 4: if it's cold, then heat it up with love, and

437
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 4: if it's dark, then lighted up with hope. And my

438
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 4: brother and I we looked at each other and said, Grandma,

439
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 4: how much have lost her mind?

440
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,640
Speaker 2: He was looking at each other like this lady for real?

441
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: Like did she realize that were in the prison for

442
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 2: a crime we didn't commit. She telling us to do what?

443
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 3: So the thing is didn't make sense to us at

444
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 3: that time.

445
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,120
Speaker 4: But as the years would go by and we would

446
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 4: begin the process us like reading you know, self help books,

447
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 4: history books, psychology books, and we were beginning to taking

448
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 4: the various programs that was available towards to educate ourselves.

449
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 4: And we would go to the law library at least

450
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 4: five days a week and we were just being there

451
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 4: for hours reading this law, trying to decipher this law,

452
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,439
Speaker 4: these cases and figure out ways how to argue and

453
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 4: plead because at some point we had to take over

454
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 4: our own representation because the lawyers they were signing us

455
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 4: was to up to park, and through that process more

456
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 4: we became educated. The anger got directed in a different direction,

457
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 4: and that anger all of a sudden started becoming more

458
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 4: about helping men in prison that was wrongfully convicted as well,

459
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 4: men that got more time than they should have.

460
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: The revenge was going to be to try to send

461
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 2: as many guys home as we could that would not

462
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 2: come back to prison. And he talks about the law library,

463
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 2: and that law library, we had a couple of tables

464
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: of men who are all home now, we've all been exignery.

465
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 2: All of us was at those tables in nineteen ninety five.

466
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 2: We all sitting around a table. And as the years

467
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 2: were about, more and more men came into the institution

468
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: and they would sit at those tables, and at the

469
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: end of the day it was two of us as

470
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,880
Speaker 2: left that at the time, nobody was going home. Years later,

471
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 2: everybody started trickling out, so eventually we would get transferred

472
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 2: to another prison, which was a treatment facility more so

473
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,959
Speaker 2: geared towards programming and things like that. And so this prison,

474
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: which was at Cichester, was kind of telling maybe for

475
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 2: men like le and I. And one of the first

476
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 2: things that we do is become a certified pair Support Specialists.

477
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 2: That means we work with people who struggle with mental

478
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 2: health issues, struggle with all kinds of issues, addiction, struggle

479
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 2: with anger issues, people who.

480
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 3: Just having a hard time adjusting the prison life.

481
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 4: And we went to work and they started seeing how

482
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 4: the assault on officers, rate on staff started to drop.

483
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 4: They started seeing the rate on prisoner on prisoner assaults drop,

484
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 4: write ups started to drop. Everything in the prison started

485
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 4: getting better as a result of the certified pay Support

486
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 4: Specialist program. And from there we began to branch out

487
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 4: into other areas. The ward, the superintendent, and the deputy

488
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 4: superintendent allowed Lee and I to be able to facilitate

489
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 4: many of programs.

490
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 3: You know.

491
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 4: We facilitated programs like Thresholds, which was a six step

492
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 4: decisional making program. We taught men how to make better

493
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 4: decisions in their lives so that they can also.

494
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 3: Get through prison much better.

495
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 4: But not only get through prison, but go home to

496
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 4: their families and do better in society. We facilitated a

497
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 4: health and wellness program and through this program, we founded

498
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 4: the day Responsibility in that particular institution.

499
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 3: What we did was we created.

500
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 4: A play and the play would have areas and it

501
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 4: would talk about recidivism, the impact of crime, dysfunction, trauma.

502
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 4: I think it took us like fifty five fifty seven

503
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 4: people to put this play on, and it was like

504
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 4: a full production. We put the rolls out for men

505
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 4: to sign up and they had to try out for

506
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 4: the parts. It was so widely successful that the administration said, well, hey, listen,

507
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 4: why you guys didn't do this bigger. So we went

508
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 4: on to do another three more plays within that institution,

509
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 4: and we went from fifty seven people being involved the

510
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 4: year after that, one hundred and something people was involved.

511
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 4: The following year. We put workshops on right after the play,

512
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 4: So not only did we do the play, but we

513
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 4: also put together twenty to thirty workshops where we would

514
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 4: talk about these various things that were plaguing our community.

515
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 4: And then those workshops we would invite people from the community, organizations,

516
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 4: from the community that was involved in stopping violence like ceasefire,

517
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 4: and universities to come in. Students and professors, we would

518
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 4: invite politicians to come in.

519
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 1: So while you're doing this amazing work, you're also, of course,

520
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: you know, simultaneously fighting to overturn your own wrongful convictions.

521
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: But so much of the information that you were discovering

522
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: exculpatory evidence right, tons of it was time barred, which

523
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: means it was held back, you barred from being introduced

524
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 1: because of procedural bullshit.

525
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: I mean, it was a lot of things that came, like,

526
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 2: you know, the police officer when we found out about

527
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 2: the internal fair investigation, they said that was public information

528
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 2: that we should have known about it, even though we

529
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 2: had no idea that she was going through this, so

530
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 2: how would we even know to look for it? So

531
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 2: that was time bard. We had a witness, an individual

532
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: we ran across who Robert Leif had confessed to because

533
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 2: he was also incarcerated when we met him. They said

534
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 2: that wasn't usable because he's a prisoner, so of course

535
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: he would help you. They use confessions against you, but

536
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: you can't use one from somebody to get out of prison.

537
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 2: But he said clearly what happened. Robert Leaf made a statement,

538
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: and in his statement he identified the person he was

539
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: with as somebody named Eddie. And in the statement he said, clearly,

540
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 2: when they said that this man died, they believed he

541
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 2: did it at the time because they took his jacket

542
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: and they did paraffine tests on it. They did nitrate

543
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: tests on his hands and all this kind of stuff

544
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 2: like this, and he said, if the man died it

545
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: was his time to die, then if I got to

546
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 2: do the time for it, then I'll do the time

547
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: for That's what he said in his statement. And he

548
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 2: said something in the statement referring to us that put

549
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: us not even with him. So everything that we would

550
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,479
Speaker 2: get would be toim barne. So we spent twenty years

551
00:28:34,520 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: pretty much fighting to overcome procedural hurdles. When we was

552
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: transferred to sci Chester, a staff member who was watching

553
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: us at the time he was a counselor, and he

554
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 2: started talking to us in general conversations and then one

555
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: day he called us any and he asked what was

556
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: we doing to get out of prison, And we told

557
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: him about our fight in the courts and about our

558
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: innocence and everything like this, and he said, you know,

559
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: I believe y'all, I really believe everything you've been telling me.

560
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: And he is the one that suggested to us that

561
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 2: we filed for commutation, and at the time we told

562
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: him that we were actually innocent and that wasn't the

563
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: venue for commutation. And he spent months trying to convince

564
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 2: us to file for commutation and just to give in,

565
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 2: just to agree with him. We said okay, and he

566
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: introduced us to a professor whose name is Kathleen Brown,

567
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 2: who helped a lot of other guys with commutation applications.

568
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: And she came to see us and we told her

569
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: our story and she said, well, won't you follow actual

570
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 2: innocence application. She said it would be the first one,

571
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 2: but just write and just tell him what you told me.

572
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 2: And that's what we did. And the first time we

573
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: went before the board and parts and we was denied

574
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: and we were distraught. And around that time, my mom

575
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,479
Speaker 2: was sick and she passed away not too long after that,

576
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: and she was so supportive. We didn't talk a lot

577
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: about her, but she was the person that was fueling

578
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 2: our fight for all those years. You know, my grandma's

579
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: words just kept bringing in our ears that keep fighting.

580
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 2: And we had developed the philosophy of freemen have freed themselves.

581
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: So we went back to the courts and then we

582
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: filed for reconsideration and that was denied, and then we

583
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: came back and filed for reconsideration again, and they granted

584
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: the reconsideration based on some other stuff. But right before that,

585
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 2: the Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman started taking up our calls.

586
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: He looked at our application, he'd seen everything in it,

587
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: and he just started doing what it was the right

588
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: thing to do. He started fighting for us, and the

589
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: rest is history.

590
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 7: I am a Lieutenant Governor, John Fetterman of Pennsylvania and

591
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 7: I also chair of the Board of Partings and Commutations

592
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 7: here and I became acquainted with Dennis and Lee's case

593
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 7: during one of their reapplications for commutation, and when I

594
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 7: read through it, I was blown away that these men

595
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 7: were ever in prison, let alone struggling to be sent home.

596
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 7: It's their background is astonishing. In Pennsylvania, the Board of

597
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 7: Pardons requires a unanimous vote of five members. It has

598
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 7: to be unanimous. If you don't get that threshold, that

599
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 7: person is going to die in prison. And that, to

600
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 7: me triggered a campaign to make sure that Lee and

601
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 7: Dennis would be able to return to their families, because

602
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 7: this is a gross miscarriage of justice. Not only are

603
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 7: they profoundly deserving that they have always maintained their innocence.

604
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 7: Everyone believes that these men, including the warden and the

605
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 7: Department of Corrections, that They have no business being in prison,

606
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 7: and I'm so grateful that they're out on some levels.

607
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 7: In fact, I actually hired them to work on our campaign.

608
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 7: They are far better a person and stronger a person

609
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 7: than I could ever be. For what they went through

610
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 7: to have emerged with the kind of humanity that they

611
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 7: just radiate is nothing short of remarkable.

612
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: So paint a picture for me. It's February twelfth, twenty

613
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: twenty one, just two days before Valentine's Day. Governor Wolfe

614
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,719
Speaker 1: signs the papers, and you're about to see your wife again.

615
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: I would tell you honestly, it was extremely amazing and

616
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: difficult at the same time. It was like a miracle.

617
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: It brought a sense of anxiety, but also it was

618
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: a great feeling of hope. Prison For me it was

619
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: a darkness I was in, and when I walked out

620
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 2: it seemed like everything was bright, everything was beautiful. I

621
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: could see everything.

622
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: Dennis, how about for you and for me?

623
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 3: It was bitter sweet at the same time because my

624
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: mother was no longer there.

625
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 4: She never gave up with fighting with us, and to

626
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 4: come home and for her not to be here, I mean,

627
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 4: it was just so painful, but it felt good to

628
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 4: be free.

629
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 3: It was just unbelievable. I felt like I can breathe again.

630
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 5: But at the same time, I'm still like bewildered because

631
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 5: some may not even get this chance, and I want

632
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 5: to see others that are deserving of the same opportunity

633
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 5: to get it. We found our sense of purpose while

634
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 5: we were in prison, and that purpose was helping others,

635
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 5: helping others to know that prison, you may be here,

636
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 5: but this is not who you are, and this is

637
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 5: not who you have to be.

638
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 4: And we did that by leading, by showing people we

639
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 4: cared about them, and through that care and through that love,

640
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 4: we begin to inspire men to be more hopeful about

641
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 4: and more optimistic about their future.

642
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really just an amazing, amazing story and

643
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: perseverance and triumph over struggle, a tragedy, and you know

644
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: the fact that you, guys, with the inspiration and the

645
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: support of your families and other people, we're able to

646
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,479
Speaker 1: take this unimaginable burden and rise above it and turn

647
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: it into something that enabled you to transform the lives

648
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: of so many other people. And that you're still doing

649
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: it today. It's nothing short. It's magical. Really, it's incredible

650
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: and for the people who are listening right now, who

651
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 1: are inspired and who are going to want to take

652
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: action and make a difference because of what you guys

653
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: have been able to accomplish. Is there anything you guys

654
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: want to suggest?

655
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Speaker 2: What I just would say my call action would be

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00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 2: to pay attention to what's going on out in society

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00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: and to support criminal justice reform. Every innocent man is

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00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: not going to make it out of prison, and it's

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00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: a lot left behind, so we need some sort of

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00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: criminal justice before and to make a way for others

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00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 2: to be able to come out.

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00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: Now we've come to the part of the show that's well,

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Speaker 1: it's the closing of the show, but it's become my

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Speaker 1: favorite part of the show. And of course it's called

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00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: closing arguments. And I want to say, first of all,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you guys tremendously just for being here and

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00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: sharing your story. You know, you guys are heroes to

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00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: me and so many other people, and I'm excited to

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00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: get this out there and get this story out in

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00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: a way in the way that it should have been

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00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: told from the very beginning. And so closing arguments what

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00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: we do here, how this works is I'm just going

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00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: to turn my microphone off and leave both of yours on,

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00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 1: and I'm going to just sit back in my chair

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00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: and listen to anything that you feel has been left unsaid.

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00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: So Dennis, how about you go first and then lee

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Speaker 1: you'll be bad and clean up.

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00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 4: So, folks, first of all, thank you for tuning in.

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00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 4: Thank you for listening to my brother and I recount

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00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 4: our story.

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00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 3: The thing is this, at the end of the day,

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00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 3: the people control the system. The system don't control you.

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00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 4: But we've gotten whole place where we allow the system

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00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 4: to control us. This is supposed to be our system,

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00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 4: and we're supposed to hold people accountable for the decisions

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00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 4: they make on our behalfs. So the only thing I

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00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 4: would say is please get involved and know with the prosecutors, no,

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00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 4: with the district attorney, no, what the police are doing

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00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 4: on your dime, because we pay the taxes that pay

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00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 4: their salaries, and if this is how they're doing business,

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00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 4: then we need to make sure we hold them accountable.

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Speaker 4: My brother not with free, but there are countless others

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00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:34,959
Speaker 4: that are not fake.

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Speaker 2: My grandma once told us that life gives you what

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00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: life gives you, and it's up to you to make

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00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: something out of it. So when we went to prison,

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00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 2: that wasn't the end of our story. That was just

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00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: another leg in our journey. The next part of our journey,

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00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 2: we hope is spectacular. We want to do a lot

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00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 2: of things out here in society. We did a lot

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00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 2: of positive working inside and we'll do a lot of

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00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: positive work out here. And so what I would say

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Speaker 2: is make sure you pay attention to what's going on,

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00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 2: and when somebody say they've been wrongfully convicted, try to

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00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: give them the benefit of the doubt, because the think

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00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: it'd be just like us, two individuals who just took

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00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 2: a ride and wind up being arrested and sent away

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Speaker 2: and spend twenty eight years trying to come back home.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

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Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,

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00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wartis. With research by Lyla Robinson. The music

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00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

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00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram

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00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and

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00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava

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Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms. You can also follow

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00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flopp.

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcasts

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Speaker 1: and association a Signal Company Number one