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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Tuesday edition of Balance of Power. Yes,
Speaker 2: the markets are back open. Yes, it's the day after
Speaker 2: Inauguration day here in Washington, DC kind of still feels
Speaker 2: the same, though you can take it from me. Horrible
Speaker 2: traffic getting into town. Is that all the federal workers
Speaker 2: afraid they're going to get fired, got to get in
Speaker 2: the office. Donald Trump shutting streets down, shuttling around the
Speaker 2: nation's capital. He's been at the National Cathedral for a
Speaker 2: bit here in National Prayer service this morning. That kicks
Speaker 2: off his first full day on the job. Live view
Speaker 2: right now of the Potus at the National Cathedral, and
Speaker 2: we'll be following him throughout the day. Has got a
Speaker 2: couple of things scheduled here, including a very important meeting
Speaker 2: at the White House that'll get going a little bit
Speaker 2: after the broadcast on the early edition here of Balance
Speaker 2: of Power is going to sit down with Congressional leadership
Speaker 2: John Thune, Mike Johnson, Majority Leader, and House Speaker. They're
Speaker 2: talking about, of course, reconciliation and what the first steps
Speaker 2: are going to be here when it comes to legislating.
Speaker 2: And then is the threat at least of a news conference.
Speaker 2: We'll see about that round four thirty pm Eastern time.
Speaker 2: So that'll walk us into the late edition of Balance
Speaker 2: of Power here on Bloomberg. It has been Newsy already
Speaker 2: before we even get to Donald Trump will update a
Speaker 2: couple of things quickly on confirmations. The Senate Finance Committee
Speaker 2: voting to advance Scott Bessen's nomination, so that's often running.
Speaker 2: He goes now to the floor, by the way, sixteen
Speaker 2: to eleven. If you're keeping track on your home game.
Speaker 2: At least Dephonic in confirmation hearings today, the VA pick
Speaker 2: Doug Collins, who no one is talking about, up for
Speaker 2: his confirmation hearing today. And you probably heard by now
Speaker 2: that Marco Rubio is now the new Secretary of State,
Speaker 2: having been in now to serve, making him the first
Speaker 2: member of President Trump's new cabinet to get rolling here.
Speaker 2: So we've got a lot going on, remembering that We
Speaker 2: had a lot going on yesterday if you were with
Speaker 2: us as part of our special coverage, not only do
Speaker 2: we cover a swearing in and an inaugural address, we
Speaker 2: covered a series of other impromptu speeches, a big rally,
Speaker 2: and the signing of a couple hundred executive orders.
Speaker 3: Remember we're thinking in terms of twenty five percent on
Speaker 3: Mexico and Canada because they're allowing vast numbers of people.
Speaker 4: China charges us staffs, and we charged them very little
Speaker 4: except for what I did.
Speaker 5: I put a lot on.
Speaker 4: We took in hundreds of billions of dollars, but until
Speaker 4: I came along, China never paid ten cents to this country.
Speaker 4: I'm fine with legal immigration.
Speaker 5: I like it.
Speaker 4: We needed because we're gonna have a lot of companies
Speaker 4: coming in to avoid tariffs. We're the only country in
Speaker 4: the world that does this with birthright, as you know,
Speaker 4: and it's just absolutely ridiculous. NATO has to pay more money.
Speaker 4: NATO has to pay five percent. World Health ripped us off.
Speaker 4: Everybody rips off the United States, and that's it. It's
Speaker 4: not going to happen anymore.
Speaker 2: Just a sampling of his time back in the Oval Office.
Speaker 2: Salute to Josh Wingrove, by the way, Bloomberg's own josh
Speaker 2: Win Grove. If you watch that video, you hear the
Speaker 2: booming voice of josh in the Oval office and made
Speaker 2: quite a bit of news here on tariffs because we're
Speaker 2: not sure exactly what's going to happen on the first
Speaker 2: of February, and that might be a good place to
Speaker 2: start our conversation with Mike Shepard back with us now
Speaker 2: following his duty on Bloomberg Technology. Great to see you
Speaker 2: here at the desk as always, you know, I pull
Speaker 2: you right into the middle of politics, whether you're talking
Speaker 2: about it or reporting on it or not. You've seen
Speaker 2: a number of transitions in your career here in Washington.
Speaker 2: We've never seen a first day like that.
Speaker 6: We really haven't. And Donald Trump said he would start
Speaker 6: with shock and awe, and sure enough he did. And
Speaker 6: it wasn't just the pomp and the circumstance. He got
Speaker 6: right down to it with all those executive orders that
Speaker 6: we watched him sign in the evening. There was a
Speaker 6: gigantic pile. Presidents often will do that. They'll do a
Speaker 6: number of symbolic gestures and moves on the first day
Speaker 6: in office. But Trump really made a meal out of it,
Speaker 6: and you saw that he was holding court with reporters
Speaker 6: as he was signing those walking in.
Speaker 2: Was that a flashback for you?
Speaker 6: A flashback? And it just really took us right back
Speaker 6: to where we have been, but also where we are going, Joe,
Speaker 6: because this is going to be the kind of free
Speaker 6: wheeling approach to governance that he will bring to office
Speaker 6: once again. And yet at the same time they are
Speaker 6: trying to run a tighter ship. As you noticed, they
Speaker 6: had someone standing next them explaining what the orders were.
Speaker 6: There was a structure to it that we didn't see
Speaker 6: when he took office back in twenty seventeen. So there
Speaker 6: are some of the similar characteristics of Trump that he'll
Speaker 6: never be able to shake. But then we're also seeing
Speaker 6: a few different moves from him in terms of being
Speaker 6: a little bit more orderly so that we know what's
Speaker 6: going to happen in packaging. Packaging, Yes, good way to here.
Speaker 2: But boy, some old style showbiz for the now once
Speaker 2: again president. Remember the season finale on The Apprentice, when
Speaker 2: they did the live show, they rebuilt the whole boardroom
Speaker 2: on stage. That's kind of what it felt like last
Speaker 2: night in this rally at the Capitol. Once there, he
Speaker 2: sat down at a desk with a presidential seal to
Speaker 2: start signing eos yes.
Speaker 6: And that again is part of his intent to really
Speaker 6: start out with a bang and to demonstrate that not
Speaker 6: only am I back, I am really in control and
Speaker 6: I am clearing out a lot of the things that
Speaker 6: I promised to change. He promised quick action on the border.
Speaker 6: He delivered that. Now implementation, of course, is another challenge,
Speaker 6: you know, but at least he has signed the paper
Speaker 6: and he is going to push his agencies to really
Speaker 6: try to make good. You know, when you think about
Speaker 6: immigration and force and it happens on the ground, far
Speaker 6: away from any signing ceremony here in Washington. It requires
Speaker 6: a lot of people. But he has set that emotion.
Speaker 6: And then he did some other things too.
Speaker 1: TikTok.
Speaker 6: He gave the company.
Speaker 2: Last time we were here, we were talking, we were
Speaker 2: asking questions. No one knew what was going to happen.
Speaker 2: Good they go dark. Think of what's happened since then.
Speaker 6: Well, although we still have a lot of questions on
Speaker 6: that show. Yeah, a one of them is was the
Speaker 6: order that he signed actually legal under the law, And
Speaker 6: we just had you mentioned a Bloomberg Technology. We just
Speaker 6: had Congressman Jake Oakincloss on our show who was questioning
Speaker 6: whether Trump's order was legal according to the statute that
Speaker 6: Trump's predecessor Joe Biden signed back in April of last year,
Speaker 6: and that requires the company to show progress toward a deal.
Speaker 6: This progress actually has to be verified and vetted by
Speaker 6: the administration and shared with members of Congress, and there
Speaker 6: actually has to be some paperwork to back it all up.
Speaker 6: And we've seen not only none of that, we've also
Speaker 6: seen both Wyte Dance and the Chinese government really resist
Speaker 6: any idea of selling TikTok Amazing.
Speaker 2: It sounds like, to your point, we have a lot
Speaker 2: to learn there, but you can't envision a world in
Speaker 2: which it goes away. I'm guessing either with Donald Trump
Speaker 2: back in the White House.
Speaker 6: It's it is hard to imagine. And I think right
Speaker 6: now the real question is what does Beijing. What do
Speaker 6: the government officials and leaders there have to say about
Speaker 6: the latest ideas coming through from Trump, including this idea
Speaker 6: of a possible joint venture between the involving the US
Speaker 6: government taking some sort of ownership stake. I imagine their
Speaker 6: heads may be exploding even on you know, at the
Speaker 6: very thought of that idea, and then the company, you know,
Speaker 6: this is a key part of its operations. They surely
Speaker 6: don't want to lose access to that customer base and
Speaker 6: to all that revenue setting aside, even the national security
Speaker 6: concerns that you know we've been hearing about for years
Speaker 6: here in Washington.
Speaker 2: Well, this is your moment, Mike Shepherd, not only the
Speaker 2: TikTok story, but the titans of tech here in Washington,
Speaker 2: the true crossover here of technology policy and politics landing
Speaker 2: in your lap. The optics yesterday of these guys, Tim Cook,
Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg, the Elon Musk. Of course, they're standing right
Speaker 2: there with Donald Trump's future cabinet as if they were
Speaker 2: part of the cabinet. Elon Musk specifically, he's dancing around
Speaker 2: the stage literally yesterday. What does it mean for his
Speaker 2: business and for the others.
Speaker 6: The stakes are enormous, and that is in part why
Speaker 6: you see the industry pivoting toward Trump in such a
Speaker 6: remarkable way. Let's turn the clock back four years. We
Speaker 6: were coming out of the January sixth attack on the
Speaker 6: US Capitol by Trump's supporters who were angered that, you know,
Speaker 6: and couldn't believe that he had lost the election to
Speaker 6: Joe Biden. That attack on the US Capitol prompted so
Speaker 6: many companies, but especially the tech industry, to really back
Speaker 6: away and turn away from Trump. And yet, you know,
Speaker 6: with the odds growing that he would return to power
Speaker 6: and return to off, we saw this pivot. It was
Speaker 6: happening slowly and then it gained some steam, and of
Speaker 6: course when he won the election, Mark Zuckerberg really made
Speaker 6: a very hard pivot, adding Dana White to the board
Speaker 6: of Meta, also pulling down some of the content moderation
Speaker 6: that they put into place after, you know, after January sixth.
Speaker 6: So all of these measures, everything that was old in
Speaker 6: a way is becoming new again. And the industry is
Speaker 6: really placing a lot of its chips on Trump.
Speaker 2: That's for sure. Chips and Coins. Didn't even have time
Speaker 2: to ask you about trump Coin. We'll do that next time.
Speaker 2: Mike Shepard, thank you so much, Mike, loving you on
Speaker 2: Bloomberg Technology. Thank you as always for spending time with
Speaker 2: us here at the table on Balance of Power. I'm
Speaker 2: Joe Matthew in Washington. I feel like Mark Zuckerberg's hair
Speaker 2: will be a proxy here of high text relationship with Trump.
Speaker 2: The longer it gets right, we know where. Wait till
Speaker 2: he gets the short hair back? What will they say?
Speaker 2: Douglas holt Zeken joined next on the fastest show in politics,
Speaker 2: Leadership heads to the White House Today from the Hill.
Speaker 2: It's next on Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power Podcast. Catch
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Speaker 1: flagship New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 2: The new carpeting in place in the Oval Office. The
Speaker 2: old golden drapes will stay there. Those were Donald Trump's drapes.
Speaker 2: Joe Biden never changed them, so they stay. What else happened?
Speaker 2: They got Andrew Jackson back out there in a couple
Speaker 2: of other changes, the furniture. This is all part of
Speaker 2: the transition, of course. Winston Churchill's bust is back in
Speaker 2: the Oval Office. Be curious to see what it looks
Speaker 2: like when it's all done. Yeah, Producer James reminds the
Speaker 2: military flags also back in place lining the room. Joe
Speaker 2: Biden got rid of those. So imagine the setting today
Speaker 2: for John Thune and Mike Johnson walking into the Trump
Speaker 2: White House on the first full day. The strange thing is,
Speaker 2: we were supposed to have answers to these questions about sequencing,
Speaker 2: about one beautiful bill or not back at the Army
Speaker 2: Navy game. Remember they were going to do this over nachos.
Speaker 2: But we're still today asking the same questions we were
Speaker 2: following Donald Trump's visit to Capitol Hill. Nobody seems to
Speaker 2: exactly know quite the way this is going to work out,
Speaker 2: which makes it a lot more difficult for the people
Speaker 2: writing the bills. That's why this meeting is very important today.
Speaker 2: And we like to think by the way microphones the sticks,
Speaker 2: as they call on their setup in the driveway the
Speaker 2: White House, so we hear from those two leaders. Sticks
Speaker 2: would be the tripods. Wonder what Douglas Holtzecin is thinking
Speaker 2: about this, because we have huge questions about how we're
Speaker 2: going to fund the government past March, what we're going
Speaker 2: to do with the debt ceiling, and how this all
Speaker 2: comes together with some of the other policy changes that
Speaker 2: they want to put inside a reconciliation package. He is
Speaker 2: President of the American Action Forum, former director of the CBO. Oh,
Speaker 2: just wait until they start scoring this stuff. Douglas holtz Eken,
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Bloomberg. It's great to see you. What
Speaker 2: do you think they e merge with a plan today?
Speaker 8: At least, I think that would be wise. I don't
Speaker 8: think that's been their track record. They've been unable to
Speaker 8: get on the same page for quite a time now.
Speaker 8: As you pointed out, it's going to have to come
Speaker 8: together quickly.
Speaker 5: I mean, people forget that.
Speaker 8: They don't just get to vote on the one big
Speaker 8: beautiful bill. They have to write budget resolutions in the
Speaker 8: House and Senate pass those that give them the authority
Speaker 8: to write the one big beautiful bill. Get one that
Speaker 8: can pass the House one vote margin, get one that
Speaker 8: can pass the Senate maybe a few more votes there,
Speaker 8: and then agree on it and get it to the
Speaker 8: president's test. That's a lot of work, and as you mentioned,
Speaker 8: there are some real speed bumps in between. There's funding
Speaker 8: the government, there's the debt limit. The Senate has to
Speaker 8: confirm these nominees. It's going to be very hard to
Speaker 8: hit the president's hundred daymark. I wanted to do this
Speaker 8: quickly there's no evidence that they've got a plan in
Speaker 8: place that will get it done that quickly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I forgot about the diet coke button, Douglas. That's
Speaker 2: back in the White House too. Can I get a
Speaker 2: diet coke button in here?
Speaker 9: Is that?
Speaker 2: I feel like we could do that at Bloomberg. So
Speaker 2: with all of that in mind, Mike Johnson says he
Speaker 2: wants to be voting by the end of February. That's
Speaker 2: not possible, is it.
Speaker 8: Anything's possible, But I'm not optimistic about that timeline. I
Speaker 8: would be thrilled if they had a plan to govern,
Speaker 8: that they had a schedule for votes that everyone had
Speaker 8: agreed on House and Senate. I mean, that's what you
Speaker 8: really need to see. So far, we've heard, you know,
Speaker 8: the majority of leader in the sense saying I'd love
Speaker 8: to do two bills, the House saying we want one bill,
Speaker 8: the present saying I want one big, beautiful bill. But
Speaker 8: if two works, that's fine. So getting to a specific
Speaker 8: data which to vote, I think the first thing is
Speaker 8: to decide what are you going to vote on.
Speaker 5: Let's do that.
Speaker 2: So boy, it just sounds to me then like Donald
Speaker 2: try Up needs to tell him what to do. Is
Speaker 2: it a matter of giving direction here or is it
Speaker 2: up to the leaders to count the votes and tell
Speaker 2: him what's going on?
Speaker 8: Big changes twenty seventeen tax bills, This effort require presidential leadership.
Speaker 8: There is no question that it's very helpful to members
Speaker 8: of the House and Senate if they can go back
Speaker 8: home to the town hall and say, look, the President
Speaker 8: asked me to do this. I don't love everything this bill.
Speaker 8: We improved on what he suggested. It's a step in
Speaker 8: the right direction, but the president has to get it down.
Speaker 8: We're going to get it done. You need that kind
Speaker 8: of air cover if you're going to make very tough
Speaker 8: votes in either chamber of Congress.
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, I think the CBO needs some air cover, though, Douglas,
Speaker 2: Based on what I'm reading, there is a thought among
Speaker 2: the Republican conference that the CBO is not being straight up,
Speaker 2: that it's not by part is enough. The scoring is
Speaker 2: somehow wrong. Are we about to try to reinvent this
Speaker 2: whole system?
Speaker 5: I hope not.
Speaker 8: I genuinely would defend the cb track record. Are doing
Speaker 8: non partisan, you know, fact based scoring of the bills.
Speaker 8: Does that mean they're right all the time? No, of
Speaker 8: course not I got things wrong when I was director.
Speaker 8: Everyone makes mistakes. But the goal for the CBO, the
Speaker 8: most important thing that Congress can know is bill A
Speaker 8: versus bill b more or less in the way of deficits.
Speaker 5: Get them ordered correctly. What's a bigger.
Speaker 8: Initiative, what's a smaller initiative? Are you going to be
Speaker 8: right on the number ten years?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 5: No way, that's a bar too high.
Speaker 8: But let's get the bills ordered correctly, so they they're
Speaker 8: voting on the thing they.
Speaker 5: Prefer to vote on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, fascinating. You have to not only deal with
Speaker 2: the scoring of the CBO, you have to get through
Speaker 2: something called the parliamentarian here and there are a lot
Speaker 2: of questions Douglas about what gets through the bird bath
Speaker 2: as they call it. They're talking about putting a lot
Speaker 2: of policy into a reconciliation package that's designed for budgeting.
Speaker 2: How does that work?
Speaker 8: So the authors of the seventy four Budget Act, which
Speaker 8: created this reconciliation process, and remember what reconciliation really does
Speaker 8: allow you to bypass the rules of the Senate. You
Speaker 8: can't fillibuster the bill. You have a finite amount of debate.
Speaker 8: You go and take a vote, simple majority and so
Speaker 8: they said, well, if we're going to bypass the rules
Speaker 8: of the Senate, we want to do it. We don't
Speaker 8: want to do it on everything under the sun. Let's
Speaker 8: do things that are purely budgetarian nature. So now it
Speaker 8: becomes the parliamentarian's job to decide for a provision is
Speaker 8: budgetarian nature or not. And if you go back to
Speaker 8: the build back Better effort under President Biden, the parliamentarian
Speaker 8: said that raising an enium wage was not budgetarian nature,
Speaker 8: and it went out. And so there are a whole
Speaker 8: bunch of them policyitarian nature. Well, there's border policy, there's
Speaker 8: energy policy. There are all sorts of things that you've
Speaker 8: heard they'd like to do. And the question is will
Speaker 8: the parliamentarian agree that those are budgetarian nature or are
Speaker 8: they primarily.
Speaker 5: Other policy initiatives.
Speaker 8: One of the most important things that happened was a
Speaker 8: week or so ago, quietly majority of Leader Thune said
Speaker 8: we will not fire the parliamentarian. And you have heard
Speaker 8: this chatter that was, oh okay, parlam says no, we'll
Speaker 8: just get another parliamentarian. And he said, no, we're not
Speaker 8: going to do that. And I thought that was an
Speaker 8: important line. He drew in the sand of the legislative process.
Speaker 8: They're going to have to adhere to the decisions this
Speaker 8: parliamentary makes.
Speaker 2: It's a really important moment. The fact that John thud
Speaker 2: said it did that. And I'm glad you mentioned it, Doug,
Speaker 2: because in a couple of weeks it's going to matter
Speaker 2: a lot. I haven't mentioned Donald Trump's favorite ord in
Speaker 2: the dictionary, of course, that's tariffs, and boy, the argument
Speaker 2: over extending tax cuts somewhat hinges upon revenue from tariffs,
Speaker 2: and we're not clear exactly on where we're going. He
Speaker 2: wants to study most of them. Based on what we
Speaker 2: heard in the Oval Office, he's thinking about pretty significant
Speaker 2: tariffs against Canada and Mexico. Here's what Donald Trump said
Speaker 2: in the Oval Office last night.
Speaker 3: We're thinking in terms of twenty five percent on Mexico
Speaker 3: and Canada because they're allowing vast numbers of people. Canada
Speaker 3: is very bad abuseral, so vast numbers of people to
Speaker 3: come in and fentonyl to come.
Speaker 2: So we're thinking, Doug, are you starting to wonder if
Speaker 2: they ever happened? Is this just a bargaining chip?
Speaker 8: So I think the most interesting thing we've seen thus
Speaker 8: far in the you know, the one day of the
Speaker 8: Trump administration. Is that the international front, the place where
Speaker 8: he has made the most waves on the campaign show
Speaker 8: and where they leaked immediate action.
Speaker 5: As the way to go and sort of just shock
Speaker 5: and awe.
Speaker 8: He then sends out of memother says, let's study these
Speaker 8: tariffs and decide.
Speaker 5: If they're a good idea.
Speaker 8: And we have seen nothing on deportations, nothing on the
Speaker 8: immigration front.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's only day one full time.
Speaker 8: In office, but there really was some real effort to
Speaker 8: sort of prepare people for the minute he's president.
Speaker 5: This is going to happen.
Speaker 8: It hasn't, and so I think that's interesting if you
Speaker 8: go back to seventeen. First he did big regulatory reform,
Speaker 8: control the growth of regulatory state. Then he did a
Speaker 8: big appropriation spill, funded the military in particular, did the
Speaker 8: tax bill. After that, he picked a trade fight with
Speaker 8: China and somewhat, are you really slowed the economy down?
Speaker 5: That was my read at the time.
Speaker 8: It looks like maybe they want to get the pro
Speaker 8: growth things in first and then maybe we'll worry about
Speaker 8: the problematic international provisions.
Speaker 2: Just as you and I are speaking, headline crosses the terminal.
Speaker 2: This is from Donald Trump's borders are Tom Homan targeted
Speaker 2: raids are now happening throughout the US. We're going to
Speaker 2: see images next, you know, of workplace raids. Correct. What
Speaker 2: does it mean for the labor market and just the
Speaker 2: optics around this new administration.
Speaker 8: Well, I have worried about this as an economic policy
Speaker 8: for a while. I mean, you've got the images of
Speaker 8: raids of workplaces. You know, what does that do for
Speaker 8: the employer employee relations, productivity in the workplace?
Speaker 5: What does this do for hiring?
Speaker 8: Do people think about changing jobs and the flexible US
Speaker 8: labor market that it could freeze up? This is all
Speaker 8: unknown territory, and you know, so we'll see how broad
Speaker 8: in scope these are.
Speaker 5: We'll see who they're trying to target.
Speaker 8: And you know, the first choice would of course be
Speaker 8: those with criminal records here illegally. I don't think anyone
Speaker 8: disagrees with that. We don't want illegal immigration, we want
Speaker 8: legal immigration. But the ramifications go well past the economics
Speaker 8: to the social fabric and we'll see how this plays out.
Speaker 2: Well, that's for sure, it's happening as we speak now.
Speaker 2: With another headline, Democratic led states sue Trump over birthright
Speaker 2: citizenship order that of course, was another one of the
Speaker 2: eos the President brought forth in the Oval Office yesterday
Speaker 2: that Douglas Holt seeking there's an important meeting today and
Speaker 2: I know we can get distracted all day long here together.
Speaker 2: That Donald Trump's back in the White House. We were
Speaker 2: here to talk about a meeting with John Thune and
Speaker 2: Mike Johnson. It sounds to me like you're not expecting
Speaker 2: the earth to shake there and they're going to come
Speaker 2: out in the driveway, maybe not have that much different
Speaker 2: to say. Am I right?
Speaker 8: I expect them to walk out and say we agreed
Speaker 8: to work on a plan to get this done, and
Speaker 8: they're going to have to if they do each an agreement,
Speaker 8: which wuld be very important, they're going to first going
Speaker 8: back and sell it to their members respectively before they
Speaker 8: announce the agreement, and so I wouldn't expect any when
Speaker 8: they walk out of the Oval Office.
Speaker 2: Great to talk to you, as always, that Douglas whole second,
Speaker 2: of course, American Action Forum. He's been in Washington for
Speaker 2: a minute, so think about some of the things we
Speaker 2: just talked about, particularly what he mentioned about the parliamentary
Speaker 2: and it's going to be critically important as we watch
Speaker 2: all of this stuff move forward in the next couple
Speaker 2: of months. Reminding you that the government runs out of
Speaker 2: money in the middle of March, and we actually have
Speaker 2: a lot of work to do. It's the twenty first
Speaker 2: of January. Before you know it, we're in February. Confirmations
Speaker 2: are going to distract us a lot during that time,
Speaker 2: but there has to be some legislating, at least some
Speaker 2: crafting of bills to get the ball rolling here. So yes,
Speaker 2: we'll have more on this breaking story as a group
Speaker 2: of Democratic led states as well as cities launched first
Speaker 2: court fight against the new administration today to block the
Speaker 2: president's bid to end automatic citizenship for children born in
Speaker 2: the US his parents are in the country unlawfully or
Speaker 2: on non permanent visas. We're gonna assemble our panel next
Speaker 2: with a lot more. It's a brand new day in
Speaker 2: the Oval Office. New carpet, diet Coke button. They also
Speaker 2: swapped out the bust of Robert F. Kennedy. According to
Speaker 2: the Wall Street Journal, new silver eagle figures over the
Speaker 2: fireplace on the mantle. It's coming together as we speak,
Speaker 2: and we're going to hear from Donald Trump a little
Speaker 2: later today. We'll bring it to you live right here
Speaker 2: on Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on
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Speaker 1: us live on YouTube.
Speaker 10: Before we get that massive infrastructure announcement as they're describing
Speaker 10: it at the White House, there's some meetings that need
Speaker 10: to take place at the White House first, specifically with
Speaker 10: Republican congressional leaderhip. First Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House,
Speaker 10: and the Senate Majority Leader John Thune will meet with
Speaker 10: the President, and then wider Republican leadership. It's all about
Speaker 10: the legislative path forward and how exactly it is going
Speaker 10: to get done. Considering what Donald Trump himself described yesterday
Speaker 10: in his remarks at Emancipation Hall as an incredibly narrow
Speaker 10: majority in the House of Representatives.
Speaker 4: Congratulate Mike Johnson for the job that he's doing. Stup,
Speaker 4: we gave him a majority of almost nothing. And then
Speaker 4: I said, to make it tougher on him, let me
Speaker 4: take two or three of the people, right, I said,
Speaker 4: he'll only have to suffer with that for about three months.
Speaker 4: How are they doing, by the way, are they Is
Speaker 4: that moving along?
Speaker 10: So there you have it, saying the quiet part out loud.
Speaker 2: Yeah, good luck with that.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Could be a majority of one if things go as plans.
Speaker 11: Yeah.
Speaker 10: So let's go to one member of that majority ing
Speaker 10: us live now from Capitol Hill here on Bloomberg TV
Speaker 10: and Radio. As Congressman Chuck Fleischman, Republican representing Tennessee's third district,
Speaker 10: Welcome back to balance of power, Congressman, as we await
Speaker 10: the readout, if you will, from the meeting the Speaker
Speaker 10: and John Thune will have with the President today. It's
Speaker 10: really going to be about the way in which a
Speaker 10: reconciliation package can move forward. We know the Speaker thinks
Speaker 10: it has to be one big bill. But are there
Speaker 10: right now two hundred and eighteen votes in the House
Speaker 10: for one big bill.
Speaker 2: It's yet to be seen.
Speaker 12: We've had very furtive meetings, probably about four or five
Speaker 12: meetings in the House Republican Caucus to discuss this one
Speaker 12: bill or two. The President wants one bill. I think
Speaker 12: the vast majority of members in the House will accede
Speaker 12: and agree to that as one bill.
Speaker 5: But we're going to have to do account You're absolutely right.
Speaker 12: We will have a one vote majority in the House
Speaker 12: provided everyone shows up on both sides until April, when
Speaker 12: the two Florida seats will be they'll be filled by Republicans.
Speaker 12: Ultimately we'll have about a four seat majority, but it's
Speaker 12: going to be difficult. It's a process. I applaud the
Speaker 12: President and the House and Senate leaders for discussing reconciliation.
Speaker 12: What will be in, what will be out, what we
Speaker 12: can do, and what we can't do. I'm an appropriator.
Speaker 12: We have appropriations to get done that cannot be done
Speaker 12: through reconciliation. So actually refining and defining the process is
Speaker 12: critically important and making sure that.
Speaker 5: We meet and move forward.
Speaker 12: So can we get it done?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 12: I applaud all of our leadership and President Trump for
Speaker 12: being very methodical in the way he's gone about this.
Speaker 12: We're laying everything out transparency for everybody in both parties
Speaker 12: and more importantly for the American people.
Speaker 2: Well, that said a congressman, and it's good to have
Speaker 2: you back in Washington and with us here on Bloomberg.
Speaker 2: What does that mean when you look at the calendar,
Speaker 2: what's realistic Mike Johnson says he wants votes by the
Speaker 2: end of February, but you just invokes regular or if
Speaker 2: we're going to actually go through the real budgeting process
Speaker 2: and handle reconciliation separately, manage the debt ceiling, is that realistic?
Speaker 12: Well, it's yet to be seen whether or not the
Speaker 12: debt ceiling will be part of reconciliation under the terms
Speaker 12: of reconciliation, If we do debt ceiling that way, we
Speaker 12: will be obligated by law to pick a specific number.
Speaker 12: Some members will have an aversion towards that. Some of
Speaker 12: our more conservative members might not want to put a
Speaker 12: number on that. I don't know where the President stands
Speaker 12: on that, but these are ongoing investigations.
Speaker 5: Again, if it's.
Speaker 12: One big bill, what will be in, what will be out.
Speaker 12: There'll be certain things that will be less palliative to
Speaker 12: some of the members that may not get in the
Speaker 12: big bill. So we're just going to have to wait
Speaker 12: and see what we can get the two eighteen with
Speaker 12: where the votes are. And the best part about it
Speaker 12: is we go through a very specific whipping process. By that,
Speaker 12: I mean every member will be asked where they're going
Speaker 12: to be on reconciliation and why and what their thoughts are.
Speaker 12: If they are in a no position, what can we
Speaker 12: do to get them to yes? What do they want
Speaker 12: in or out of the bill. So we do have time,
Speaker 12: it is shortened field, but we are being very careful
Speaker 12: and very thoughtful. Again, we've had three or four meetings
Speaker 12: already on this. All have been very furtive, all have
Speaker 12: been productive, and we're listening to our membership from top
Speaker 12: to bottom well.
Speaker 10: And of course this is all what the executive branch
Speaker 10: and legislative branch will be working on together. But as
Speaker 10: Joe and I were describing, I'm sure you heard, Congressman
Speaker 10: Donald Trump has taken a lot of action already through
Speaker 10: the power of the executive including announcing what he calls
Speaker 10: a national energy emergency. Has outlined in his inaugural address yesterday.
Speaker 4: Let's listen, the inflation crisis was caused by massive overspending
Speaker 4: and escalating energy prices. And that is why today I
Speaker 4: will also declare a national energy emergency.
Speaker 2: We will drill baby.
Speaker 10: Congressman, is drill baby, drill enough to get not just
Speaker 10: energy prices, but prices across the board down? And what
Speaker 10: role do other forms of energy like wind, for example,
Speaker 10: which the President also issued orders pulling back on yesterday.
Speaker 10: Play in this.
Speaker 12: I'm glad you asked me this question because this is
Speaker 12: my wheelhouse. I chair the Energy and Water Subcommittee of Appropriations,
Speaker 12: so I fund the Department of Energy all of the
Speaker 12: energy initiatives. I share eight congressional caucuses dealing with energy.
Speaker 12: I just launched the American Dominance in Energy Caucus with
Speaker 12: Democrats and Republicans to answer this question. Drill belluyby drill
Speaker 12: is a great start. We need to utilize our oil,
Speaker 12: our gas, our abundant fossil fuels. I am a champion
Speaker 12: of nuclear. I'm the nuclear congressperson in either House. I
Speaker 12: work with people across the aisle. We need new nuclear,
Speaker 12: we need geothermal. We need abundant.
Speaker 5: Energy in America.
Speaker 12: If we do not act, and I applaud President Trump
Speaker 12: for being so aggressive on energy, and there is an
Speaker 12: energy emergency because we're going to need energy to propel AI.
Speaker 12: We're gonna need energy to propel our great manufacturing boom
Speaker 12: in this country. We want to make absolutely certain that
Speaker 12: we have abundant energy. It will be oil, it will
Speaker 12: be gas, it will be nuclear, geothermal, solar will have
Speaker 12: a place. So we want to make sure we have
Speaker 12: abundant energy, but it's got to be common sense abundant energy.
Speaker 2: Well, we've established the need, Congressman, and we've talked about
Speaker 2: this with you more than once here on Bloomberg TV
Speaker 2: and radio. You look at stocks like Constellation taking off here,
Speaker 2: we know the demand is there. We also know that
Speaker 2: the red tape is there. What did Donald Trump do
Speaker 2: in those executive orders yesterday that will actually lead to
Speaker 2: a new nuclear power plant this country?
Speaker 12: Well, actually, fortunately, if you look at the fiscal twenty
Speaker 12: twenty five budget, which I wrote for the Energy and
Speaker 12: Water Bill in the House, it proposes close to nine
Speaker 12: billion dollars in new.
Speaker 5: Funding for new nuclear.
Speaker 12: In terms of executive orders, he's going to make it
Speaker 12: easier for all energy companies to do business. But as
Speaker 12: we focus somewhat in a parochial sense on nuclear, we've
Speaker 12: got to be wise about it. There's a lot of
Speaker 12: designs out there, there's a lot of different fuel systems,
Speaker 12: Generation three, generation four, We've got to choose wisely. I've
Speaker 12: already spoken with Secretary right incoming Secretary Right he has
Speaker 12: yet to be confirmed. He and I have spoken Secretary
Speaker 12: Bergham and I have spoken, we are going to work
Speaker 12: together to make sure that it's economically feasible.
Speaker 5: But the key is going to be yesterday.
Speaker 12: I believe President Trump named the Nuclear Regulatory Commission chair.
Speaker 5: That is going to be very important.
Speaker 12: Why clear regulatory Commission is important for safe nuclear? Nuclear
Speaker 12: is safe. But they need to move in a more
Speaker 12: swift fashion. They're too slow, they're too lethargic. We have
Speaker 12: got to get going. Why Russia, China, even our friends
Speaker 12: the Frends in the South Koreans and the Canadians are
Speaker 12: moving ahead of us. If we focus, and I know
Speaker 12: one thing about President Trump, he will focus.
Speaker 5: On getting it done right.
Speaker 12: New nuclear will boom in America.
Speaker 10: Congressman, just quickly before we let you go. We only
Speaker 10: have about forty five seconds here. But on January sixth,
Speaker 10: twenty twenty one, you called it a sad day and
Speaker 10: condemned the actions that took place. Do you have a reaction, sir,
Speaker 10: to the pardon of the more than fifteen hundred people
Speaker 10: who were convicted of crimes on that day?
Speaker 12: Well? As a member of the legislative branch, I had
Speaker 12: been on the House floor that day, was subject to
Speaker 12: a bomb threat in my office where my whole staff
Speaker 12: had to leave. That does not get talked about a lot,
Speaker 12: But the reality is I'm going to defer to President
Speaker 12: Trump on the pardons. That is something of the executive branch.
Speaker 12: I'm in the legislative branch as a constitutionalist. I will
Speaker 12: defer to President Trump and his judgment. All Right, we
Speaker 12: had a great first day. I hope he has a
Speaker 12: great four years and I'm here to help him.
Speaker 2: Congress and we appreciate you coming back. This Chuck Fleischman,
Speaker 2: Republican from Tennessee's third District. We're gonna have a lot
Speaker 2: more on those January sixth pardons coming up. Our signature
Speaker 2: panels on the way. Next, this is Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm.
Speaker 7: He's durn on Apple, Cockley and Android Auto with the
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Speaker 7: Alexa from our flagship New York station Just Say Alexa
Speaker 7: played Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 10: I'm Kaylee Lines alongside Joe Matthew here in Washington, where,
Speaker 10: of course it's the first full day of the second
Speaker 10: Trump administration. The President began his day today with, as
Speaker 10: his tradition, prayer service at the National Cathedral. He's now
Speaker 10: back at the White House, where just about thirty minutes
Speaker 10: from now he's scheduled to meet with Republican congressional leadership.
Speaker 10: Both the House Speaker Mike Johnson and some Majority leader
Speaker 10: John Thune will be arriving to discuss the legislative agenda.
Speaker 10: And while Joe, we often frame this as just the
Speaker 10: path forward on budget reconciliation, we do have to keep
Speaker 10: in mind there's a government that needs to be funded
Speaker 10: beyond the deadline of March fourteenth, the debt ceiling that
Speaker 10: is going to need to be raised at some point,
Speaker 10: and a very tight majority in the House you're working
Speaker 10: with to get it all done.
Speaker 2: That's true. With a live view of the West Wing,
Speaker 2: the entrance that will at some point carry the congressional
Speaker 2: leadership toward the Oval office, they'll likely emerge. Microphones and
Speaker 2: cameras are set up with the driveway to maybe get
Speaker 2: a sense of what it was like in the room.
Speaker 2: Because you're right, Kelly, we don't have a way forward
Speaker 2: on any of these items, despite the fact they've been
Speaker 2: talking about it for weeks. Still don't know if it's
Speaker 2: one big beautiful bill. Go back to the Army Navy game.
Speaker 2: It was supposed to be hashed out weeks and weeks ago,
Speaker 2: and we're still not there yet.
Speaker 10: And I'm just going to add something else to this list.
Speaker 10: You still have to get the rest of Trump's cabinet
Speaker 10: confirmed at some point two in a second. Times can
Speaker 10: be arduous in its processes to get everything done. Marca
Speaker 10: Rubio the first to be sworn in today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, Scott Bessett. By the way, cleared committee,
Speaker 2: we should let our audience know the incoming likely incoming
Speaker 2: Treasury secretary now goes to the floor where he also
Speaker 2: is expected to be confirmed. But yes, Marco Rubio becomes
Speaker 2: the first. We'll have a lot more coming up with
Speaker 2: our signature panel here. You want to bring in Rick
Speaker 2: and Jeanie Sure Bloomber Politics contributors, of course, they were
Speaker 2: with us on innauguration Day, Democratic analyst Jenie Shanzano, of course,
Speaker 2: and Republican strategist Rick Davis, partner at Stone Court Capital.
Speaker 2: A lot more to talk about here as we get
Speaker 2: ready for this meeting. Genie, what's going to happen inside
Speaker 2: the Oval today? Will they craft a plan.
Speaker 11: I don't know if they're craft a plan, but they
Speaker 11: certainly have a lot to talk about.
Speaker 12: You know.
Speaker 11: I think one of the things we forget is that
Speaker 11: Donald Trump's first term he did not have an enormous
Speaker 11: number of legislative victories. You know, certainly the twenty seventeen
Speaker 11: tax bill was a big one for him, but beyond that,
Speaker 11: legislative victories were few and far between. I mean, I
Speaker 11: think we all remember there was a running joke during
Speaker 11: his term and terms before his that every week was
Speaker 11: infrastructure Week, but nobody could pass the bill. And so
Speaker 11: what he set out for himself in terms of the
Speaker 11: legislation he wants to get passed in Congress, it is
Speaker 11: a huge, big, looming setup. Priorities he had and that
Speaker 11: you know, you just went through some of them, and
Speaker 11: that's what they're going to be discussing. And it's not
Speaker 11: just on reconciliation one or two bills, it's what the
Speaker 11: heck is that bill going to have in it? What
Speaker 11: are his must haves? For instance? And I think the
Speaker 11: debt ceiling is going to be the thing that frustrates
Speaker 11: him the most. And of course you've got a narrow
Speaker 11: majority in the House, So there's a lot for them
Speaker 11: to discuss in there today, and it's stuff that Donald
Speaker 11: Trump probably doesn't love about his job, which is the
Speaker 11: nitty gritty of legislation, and.
Speaker 10: Yet it's the job that he has as of twenty
Speaker 10: five hours or so ago. Rick, He's going to have
Speaker 10: to work with Congress on this stuff, obviously, and Congress
Speaker 10: is going to have to figure out how to work together.
Speaker 10: How much of this meeting do you expect could actually
Speaker 10: be Trump and Johnson, who seemed to be on the
Speaker 10: same page with reconciliation, trying to convince thoone to get
Speaker 10: vocally on board.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 13: Look, I mean, this isn't the first meeting they've had,
Speaker 13: and I think they've sort of found each other's priorities.
Speaker 2: A lot of it's going to be now really up
Speaker 2: to Donald Trump.
Speaker 13: I mean, you know, we know Thune is pushing a
Speaker 13: two bill reconciliation package, one in the spring, one in
Speaker 13: the winter or fall of next year, round the end
Speaker 13: of the fiscal year at the end of September, and so,
Speaker 13: and we know that Johnson's going to do whatever Donald
Speaker 13: Trump wants to do, right, I mean, I think it's
Speaker 13: unfair to actually say that Johnson has a point of view.
Speaker 13: Johnson echoes the point of view of the president, and
Speaker 13: so this is totally up to Donald Trump. He's going
Speaker 13: to make the call, and I think he's going to
Speaker 13: make it today. I don't think they want to delay action.
Speaker 13: I mean, you know, getting something done by March fifteenth
Speaker 13: is not going to be easy. And they they're running
Speaker 13: up against all these deadlines, like the continuing Resolution. I mean,
Speaker 13: the deadlimit deadline has passed tomorrow. It's you know, or
Speaker 13: passed on the second in January. So we're only we're
Speaker 13: working off of extraordinary measures now that'll maybe get us
Speaker 13: into the spring summer. So like, these are things piling up,
Speaker 13: and his Congressman Fleischmann said, they've got all this other stuff,
Speaker 13: these confirmations to do regular order around appropriations and authorizations.
Speaker 13: It's it's going to be a capacity problem if they
Speaker 13: think they can do it all in one bill.
Speaker 2: So I think Fune will come out with a victory.
Speaker 13: But I think there's going to be some definition to
Speaker 13: it today because after the Thune Johnson meeting, they bring
Speaker 13: in the leadership of both the House and the Senate,
Speaker 13: and I assume that's to get the marching orders.
Speaker 2: Well, it would help to get some directions today and
Speaker 2: we'll keep tabs on what we hear. That meeting is
Speaker 2: set to begin over a half hour from now at
Speaker 2: the White House. We have the matter of January six
Speaker 2: pardons to discuss. Donald Trump danced around this throughout the
Speaker 2: day yesterday. He talked about the fact that pardons were coming.
Speaker 2: We didn't know until late yesterday inside the Oval Office
Speaker 2: what we would get. Here's Donald Trump from earlier in
Speaker 2: the day.
Speaker 4: Tonight, I'm going to be signing on the Jay six
Speaker 4: hostages pardons to get them out. And as soon as
Speaker 4: I leave, I'm going to the Oval Office and we'll
Speaker 4: be signing pardons for a lot of people, a lot
Speaker 4: of people.
Speaker 2: And it was a lot of people, about fifteen hundred,
Speaker 2: including violent offenders who attacked the capital and attacked police
Speaker 2: officers on January sixth, Full complete and unconditional pardons, including
Speaker 2: the likes of Enrique Tario, the former national leader of
Speaker 2: the Proud Boys walking free today. His mother was tweeting
Speaker 2: about it last night. Now, Genie, if you look at
Speaker 2: the video that we just showed, Donald Trump was standing
Speaker 2: in front of family members of hostages who were taken
Speaker 2: in Gaza, including an actual freed hostage who was there
Speaker 2: on the stage last night. They were presumably brought up
Speaker 2: on the stage to show respect and tribute to their
Speaker 2: family members. There they are again with the yellow scarves on,
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump turned to the podium and started talking
Speaker 2: about January sixth offenders as hostages received quite a bit
Speaker 2: of applause. Was that the proper way to roll this out?
Speaker 2: Jeanie Chanzeno, I.
Speaker 11: Don't think there is a proper way to roll this out.
Speaker 11: I think we have a president now who fulfilled his
Speaker 11: promise of pardoning these folks. But he did this on
Speaker 11: the heels of an inauguration where he promised to restore
Speaker 11: law and order. And what did he do hours later,
Speaker 11: after being after being kept safe all day and for
Speaker 11: the campaign trail by security, he went in and pardoned
Speaker 11: people who are convicted of the most violent crimes against
Speaker 11: police officers in our country. And I don't know how
Speaker 11: you swear that it's an attempt to whitewash history and
Speaker 11: what it has left in people's minds, and your point
Speaker 11: about the hostages is absolutely important. It has left the
Speaker 11: idea that he's wanting to support police officers and ensure
Speaker 11: that anybody who commits violence against them is held responsible
Speaker 11: unless the police officers are doing something that he doesn't like,
Speaker 11: and that is a problem. So I don't know if
Speaker 11: there's a good way to do this. And let's not
Speaker 11: forget that QAnon Shaman who was released as well, or
Speaker 11: at his sentence ut of jail. He went on social
Speaker 11: media last night and applauded the fact that he's been
Speaker 11: pardoned and he can go out and buy some guns now.
Speaker 11: So that's what the president does, which which is why
Speaker 11: this was there's no right way to do this, and
Speaker 11: he chose the wrong way in pardoning all of these
Speaker 11: people in a blanket pardon, regardless of their crimes or
Speaker 11: their charges.
Speaker 10: But Rick, on the other hand, isn't this exactly what
Speaker 10: he has long said he would do. Should anyone be
Speaker 10: surprised by him actually taking this action?
Speaker 13: Well, this is actually one where you know, it's a
Speaker 13: classic example of almost reverse right where you say, don't
Speaker 13: listen to what he says, see what he does, and
Speaker 13: usually what he does is less impactful than what he says.
Speaker 13: In this case. Throughout the campaign, he kept it kind
Speaker 13: of general as to whether he would pardon the violent offenders.
Speaker 13: Three hundred and seventy nine of the fifteen hundred that
Speaker 13: he pardoned had attacked police and caused damage to the Capitol,
Speaker 13: and that wasn't a very politically favorable thing to do,
Speaker 13: so he kind of left it open, and even as
Speaker 13: Vice President went out as early as just a few
Speaker 13: weeks ago did an interview saying, you know, like, no,
Speaker 13: we wouldn't we wouldn't give those guys a break there.
Speaker 13: Anybody who attacks a cop should serve time. And so
Speaker 13: it's pretty clear that what his intention was was much
Speaker 13: worse than what he was willing to say. This was
Speaker 13: one where even members of Congress were caught by surprise thinking, well,
Speaker 13: wait a minute, I thought he was saying that he
Speaker 13: was only going to do the non violent misdemeanors and
Speaker 13: people like that. So I got to tell you, I
Speaker 13: think this was a inside job. Those folks around Donald Trump,
Speaker 13: you know, who had relationships with the Proud Boys and
Speaker 13: the folks who did the organize the attack, obviously weighed
Speaker 13: in on his interests, and I'm not sure it was
Speaker 13: even widely vetted within the staff who were in the
Speaker 13: process of preparing all these documents. Because this was one
Speaker 13: where what he did was different than what he said.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, interesting. The group Protect Democracy put a list
Speaker 2: together of lawmakers comments JD. Vance as well to your point, Rick,
Speaker 2: who said, if you committed violence on that day, obviously
Speaker 2: you should not be pardoned. Senator Katie Britt said, I
Speaker 2: agree with JD. Senator Josh Holly, Republican. Of course I'm
Speaker 2: against it for people who assaulted cops, through stuff at cops,
Speaker 2: broke down doors, broke windows, Genie, there's an equivalency thing
Speaker 2: here going on too. Of course, Joe Biden was roundly criticized,
Speaker 2: I think by including you as well, for pardoning members
Speaker 2: of his family on his way out the door yesterday.
Speaker 2: In our remaining moment, why do you not see those
Speaker 2: in the same.
Speaker 11: Way pardning members are your family. As you mentioned, I
Speaker 11: am not a fan of that, nor am I a
Speaker 11: fan of preemptive pardons, but that is highly different than
Speaker 11: pardoning people who attacked violently police officers in our nation's capital.
Speaker 11: And Senator Tom Tillis, a Republican, was right when he
Speaker 11: said it makes the capital less safe, and you can't
Speaker 11: have it both ways. We all have to condemn violence
Speaker 11: where ever we find it. Donald Trump is now saying
Speaker 11: some violence is forgivable and okay when it's in my interest,
Speaker 11: and other violence I'm not accepting, and that is a
Speaker 11: problem for all of us and it should be condemned,
Speaker 11: all right.
Speaker 10: Jeanie Schanzeno and Rick Davis, Bloomberg Politics contributors, our signature
Speaker 10: political panel, thank you for joining us, and of course
Speaker 10: we're going to have more on pardon still ahead with
Speaker 10: Kim Whaley. She's professor at the University of Baltimore School
Speaker 10: of Law and an expert on pardons. That's still ahead
Speaker 10: here on Balance of Power on Bloomberg TV and radio.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
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Speaker 2: You wonder who will do the first in rikue Taria interview,
Speaker 2: who will do the Stuart Rhodes sit down? Will there
Speaker 2: be soft seeding they've been pardoned by Donald Trump, of course.
Speaker 2: Among the most violent January sixth offenders, Enrique Tarrio, the
Speaker 2: former leader of the Crown Boys, Stuart Rhodes, the Oathkeepers,
Speaker 2: Ryan Samsel, the first rioter to breach police lines. Guy Refitt,
Speaker 2: who carried a firearm during a standoff with police to
Speaker 2: help the lead the way to the Capitol pardoned among
Speaker 2: fifteen hundred pardoned by Donald Trump and a series of
Speaker 2: pardons and commutations. It's pardon fever in Washington. You heard
Speaker 2: about Joe Biden naming family members on the way out
Speaker 2: the door. Here's Donald Trump on the way in.
Speaker 8: First, we have a list of pardons and commutations relating
Speaker 8: to events that occurred on January sixth, twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4: Okay, and how many people is this?
Speaker 6: I think this order will apply to approximately fifteen hundred people, sir.
Speaker 4: So this is January sixth. These are the hostages, approximately
Speaker 4: fifteen hundred for a pardon, yes, full pardon.
Speaker 10: Of course, what he's referring to as hostages, in most
Speaker 10: instances were people who had been convicted of crimes committed
Speaker 10: on that day, many of whom pleaded guilty to those crimes.
Speaker 10: So for more on this, now we want to turn
Speaker 10: to a pardon expert. Kim Waaley is with us. She's
Speaker 10: professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law. She's
Speaker 10: also author of the book Pardon Power, How the Pardon
Speaker 10: System Works and Why Kim Thanks for coming back to
Speaker 10: balance of power. Would you describe this mass pardon of
Speaker 10: nearly fifteen hundred offenders from January sixth, twenty twenty one
Speaker 10: is the parton system working?
Speaker 9: No, I would not even us the Department guidelines, which
Speaker 9: are not binding on presidents. One of the criteria is
Speaker 9: whether the person seeking a pardon could be violent, and
Speaker 9: so it's antithetical to the idea behind a pardon and
Speaker 9: amnesty pardons in particular, they go all the way back
Speaker 9: to George Washington and the Whiskey Rebellion, through the Civil War,
Speaker 9: Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Johnson pardoned Confederate soldiers, and then
Speaker 9: Jimmy Carter pardoned draft dodgers after the Vietnam War. Mass
Speaker 9: pardons traditionally are about healing the country, moving the country
Speaker 9: forward after a tragedy under some blanket notion of Americans.
Speaker 9: And here this is undermining the legitimacy of the rule
Speaker 9: of law. And of course Donald Trump himself was both
Speaker 9: impeached and indicted for his role in January sixth, so
Speaker 9: he's really standing in solidarity with people who tried to
Speaker 9: overthrow the peaceful transfer of power and our constitutional structure itself.
Speaker 2: Well, so then what happens if some of these individuals,
Speaker 2: let's say in Ray kue Tario goes on to him
Speaker 2: he's convicted of seditious conspiracy, Right, I'm trying to get
Speaker 2: a sense of the precedent here. What happens if they
Speaker 2: get in trouble again? Would there be a record to
Speaker 2: look back on?
Speaker 9: So a pardon does not actually wipe out your entire
Speaker 9: criminal record. That requires an exoneration by a judge. But
Speaker 9: it does more than a commutation. A commutation just changes
Speaker 9: your sentence. If you're in prison, you get released. If
Speaker 9: you're in death row, you might get life in prison,
Speaker 9: for example. But a pardon does lift some of the
Speaker 9: strictures on a felony conviction. So you might have broader
Speaker 9: access to guns, you might be able to travel to
Speaker 9: parts of the world that without a pardon that would
Speaker 9: be restricted. You would have access to different kinds of
Speaker 9: government benefits, etc. So it does give back some privileges
Speaker 9: voting rights in certain states that a peer basic commutation
Speaker 9: would not do.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 10: And it wasn't just about pardons. And commutations. Yesterday, Kim
Speaker 10: Trump also, through this action, ordered the Attorney General to
Speaker 10: seek the dismissal of the roughly four hundred and fifty
Speaker 10: cases that are pending before for judges people who have
Speaker 10: been charged but not yet convicted or acquitted. Is there
Speaker 10: any guarantee that the dismissal for all of those cases happens?
Speaker 10: Is that up to the DOJ or up to the
Speaker 10: judges who have those cases before them.
Speaker 9: Well, judges actually do have some discretion to decline to
Speaker 9: have a case dismissed under the federal rules of criminal procedure.
Speaker 9: But I can't imagine any judges would push back on
Speaker 9: that because there wouldn't be anyone to actually move forward
Speaker 9: and prosecute those cases. Definitely, Pambondi made clear during her
Speaker 9: confirmation hearings that she's in lockstep with this president, which
Speaker 9: of course is a different precedent than we've seen since Watergate,
Speaker 9: where the Justice Department has been very careful to be
Speaker 9: independent of the president so that there aren't conflicts of interest.
Speaker 9: Donald Trump ran on using the Justice Department as an
Speaker 9: arm of his own retribution, So we're in a different
Speaker 9: world right now. I think the judges are going to
Speaker 9: be thoughtful about that and seeing new prosecutions and be
Speaker 9: mindful of vindicti prosecutions. But there really isn't a lot
Speaker 9: judges can do if the DJ wants to go forward
Speaker 9: on certain things.
Speaker 2: We're hearing from some of our viewers and listeners here
Speaker 2: throughout the day about the equivalency argument and how one
Speaker 2: can criticize Donald Trump for what he did after Joe
Speaker 2: Biden pardoned Hunter Biden then yesterday other members of his
Speaker 2: family issued preemptive pardons for members of the January sixth
Speaker 2: Committee and others. How would you answer them.
Speaker 9: There's a lot of confusion around pardons, you know, the
Speaker 9: Donald Trump pardons again green lighting political violence. There was
Speaker 9: a survey done over the summer bipartisan support Republicans Democrats
Speaker 9: did not want to see this because it basically creates
Speaker 9: a street army that thinks they're above the law. If
Speaker 9: you want a peacefully protest in Washington, the people are
Speaker 9: going to now feel emboldened so long as it's in
Speaker 9: the name of Donald Trump to come out violently. That's
Speaker 9: not I think how we want our children to be
Speaker 9: walking around the streets of America. I was not critical
Speaker 9: of the Hunter Biden pardon. In part, that's different because
Speaker 9: than the family pardons this week, because he went through
Speaker 9: years of criminal investigation, both under Trump and under Biden,
Speaker 9: and they came up with some pretty low level charges.
Speaker 9: And I think his dad was worried about real retribution
Speaker 9: given that they've raked him over the coals with that
Speaker 9: fact pattern already, these family pardons that are really nebulous.
Speaker 9: You know, James Biden did have some issues with his
Speaker 9: congressional testimony and a referral to doj for alleged perjury,
Speaker 9: but you know, the wives, the other siblings, This really
Speaker 9: seems like nepotism taking care of his own and it
Speaker 9: does set a bad precedent. And I'll tell you what
Speaker 9: the precedent is. It is Listen. Now, with the community ruling,
Speaker 9: Donald Trump and future presidents will have, knowing they can
Speaker 9: commit crimes all they want, they're going to need to
Speaker 9: get people to go along with that to execute those
Speaker 9: criminal orders. I think that Joe Biden pardons of his
Speaker 9: family sort of sets a precedent for just open pardons.
Speaker 9: Open season on pardons really vague to immunize deputy co conspirators.
Speaker 9: So you take immunity, you add the pardon. We have
Speaker 9: a you know, a crime gang in the White House,
Speaker 9: and the Supreme Court basically amended the Constitution to say,
Speaker 9: there's not much that we can do about it unless
Speaker 9: we the people get together and actually amend the Constitution,
Speaker 9: which is not an easy task.
Speaker 10: It certainly is not so when we consider, and you
Speaker 10: were speaking to this earlier, what comes with a pardon
Speaker 10: where the members of the Biden family who have been
Speaker 10: kind of blanket pardoned by him now basically be untouchable
Speaker 10: if they were called to testify before Congress, for example,
Speaker 10: which there have been some signal of Republican lawmakers. Still
Speaker 10: do you intend to do? Is there any way to
Speaker 10: still get at them despite the action the President took yesterday.
Speaker 9: Yeah, So the pardon started in twenty fourteen to current
Speaker 9: time period, So in theory, any activity prior to twenty
Speaker 9: fourteen would not be covered. But you know, the Constitution
Speaker 9: says it applies to federal offenses. It's been traditionally perceived
Speaker 9: to be criminal offenses. It hasn't technically been extended to
Speaker 9: civil I don't think there's anything standing in the way
Speaker 9: of arguing that a pardon would somehow give some immunity
Speaker 9: to Congress, but there's congressional to testimony, but there's no
Speaker 9: legal authority for that. It wouldn't protect from an IRS investigation.
Speaker 9: I think there would be litigation around refusing to testify.
Speaker 9: Of course, a pardon, if accepted, basically means you cannot
Speaker 9: invoke the right to against self incrimination under the Fifth Amendment.
Speaker 9: So I think they could probably object to certain questions
Speaker 9: depending on what the context was, but if they fall
Speaker 9: within the pardon, there'd be an argument they would have
Speaker 9: to answer them or be held in contempt of Congress,
Speaker 9: which we saw when Donald Trump's witnesses refused to testify
Speaker 9: before the January sixth Committee. That's also very hard to enforce.
Speaker 2: Kim, you've been great on this. We learn a lot
Speaker 2: from Kim Whaley, who truly wrote the book on pardons,
Speaker 2: it's called Pardon Power, how the partons system works, and
Speaker 2: why she's a professor at University at Baltimore School of Law.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make
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