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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. You're listening to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at

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Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple Coarclay and Android

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Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Tuesday edition of Balance of Power. Yes,

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Speaker 2: the markets are back open. Yes, it's the day after

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Speaker 2: Inauguration day here in Washington, DC kind of still feels

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Speaker 2: the same, though you can take it from me. Horrible

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Speaker 2: traffic getting into town. Is that all the federal workers

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Speaker 2: afraid they're going to get fired, got to get in

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Speaker 2: the office. Donald Trump shutting streets down, shuttling around the

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Speaker 2: nation's capital. He's been at the National Cathedral for a

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Speaker 2: bit here in National Prayer service this morning. That kicks

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Speaker 2: off his first full day on the job. Live view

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Speaker 2: right now of the Potus at the National Cathedral, and

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Speaker 2: we'll be following him throughout the day. Has got a

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Speaker 2: couple of things scheduled here, including a very important meeting

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Speaker 2: at the White House that'll get going a little bit

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Speaker 2: after the broadcast on the early edition here of Balance

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Speaker 2: of Power is going to sit down with Congressional leadership

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Speaker 2: John Thune, Mike Johnson, Majority Leader, and House Speaker. They're

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Speaker 2: talking about, of course, reconciliation and what the first steps

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Speaker 2: are going to be here when it comes to legislating.

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Speaker 2: And then is the threat at least of a news conference.

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Speaker 2: We'll see about that round four thirty pm Eastern time.

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Speaker 2: So that'll walk us into the late edition of Balance

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Speaker 2: of Power here on Bloomberg. It has been Newsy already

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Speaker 2: before we even get to Donald Trump will update a

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Speaker 2: couple of things quickly on confirmations. The Senate Finance Committee

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Speaker 2: voting to advance Scott Bessen's nomination, so that's often running.

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Speaker 2: He goes now to the floor, by the way, sixteen

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Speaker 2: to eleven. If you're keeping track on your home game.

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Speaker 2: At least Dephonic in confirmation hearings today, the VA pick

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Speaker 2: Doug Collins, who no one is talking about, up for

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Speaker 2: his confirmation hearing today. And you probably heard by now

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Speaker 2: that Marco Rubio is now the new Secretary of State,

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Speaker 2: having been in now to serve, making him the first

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Speaker 2: member of President Trump's new cabinet to get rolling here.

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Speaker 2: So we've got a lot going on, remembering that We

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Speaker 2: had a lot going on yesterday if you were with

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Speaker 2: us as part of our special coverage, not only do

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Speaker 2: we cover a swearing in and an inaugural address, we

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Speaker 2: covered a series of other impromptu speeches, a big rally,

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Speaker 2: and the signing of a couple hundred executive orders.

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Speaker 3: Remember we're thinking in terms of twenty five percent on

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Speaker 3: Mexico and Canada because they're allowing vast numbers of people.

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Speaker 4: China charges us staffs, and we charged them very little

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Speaker 4: except for what I did.

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Speaker 5: I put a lot on.

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Speaker 4: We took in hundreds of billions of dollars, but until

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Speaker 4: I came along, China never paid ten cents to this country.

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Speaker 4: I'm fine with legal immigration.

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Speaker 5: I like it.

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Speaker 4: We needed because we're gonna have a lot of companies

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Speaker 4: coming in to avoid tariffs. We're the only country in

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Speaker 4: the world that does this with birthright, as you know,

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Speaker 4: and it's just absolutely ridiculous. NATO has to pay more money.

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Speaker 4: NATO has to pay five percent. World Health ripped us off.

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Speaker 4: Everybody rips off the United States, and that's it. It's

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Speaker 4: not going to happen anymore.

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Speaker 2: Just a sampling of his time back in the Oval Office.

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Speaker 2: Salute to Josh Wingrove, by the way, Bloomberg's own josh

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Speaker 2: Win Grove. If you watch that video, you hear the

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Speaker 2: booming voice of josh in the Oval office and made

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Speaker 2: quite a bit of news here on tariffs because we're

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Speaker 2: not sure exactly what's going to happen on the first

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Speaker 2: of February, and that might be a good place to

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Speaker 2: start our conversation with Mike Shepard back with us now

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Speaker 2: following his duty on Bloomberg Technology. Great to see you

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Speaker 2: here at the desk as always, you know, I pull

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Speaker 2: you right into the middle of politics, whether you're talking

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Speaker 2: about it or reporting on it or not. You've seen

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Speaker 2: a number of transitions in your career here in Washington.

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Speaker 2: We've never seen a first day like that.

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Speaker 6: We really haven't. And Donald Trump said he would start

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Speaker 6: with shock and awe, and sure enough he did. And

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Speaker 6: it wasn't just the pomp and the circumstance. He got

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Speaker 6: right down to it with all those executive orders that

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Speaker 6: we watched him sign in the evening. There was a

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Speaker 6: gigantic pile. Presidents often will do that. They'll do a

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Speaker 6: number of symbolic gestures and moves on the first day

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Speaker 6: in office. But Trump really made a meal out of it,

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Speaker 6: and you saw that he was holding court with reporters

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Speaker 6: as he was signing those walking in.

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Speaker 2: Was that a flashback for you?

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Speaker 6: A flashback? And it just really took us right back

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Speaker 6: to where we have been, but also where we are going, Joe,

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Speaker 6: because this is going to be the kind of free

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Speaker 6: wheeling approach to governance that he will bring to office

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Speaker 6: once again. And yet at the same time they are

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Speaker 6: trying to run a tighter ship. As you noticed, they

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Speaker 6: had someone standing next them explaining what the orders were.

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Speaker 6: There was a structure to it that we didn't see

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Speaker 6: when he took office back in twenty seventeen. So there

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Speaker 6: are some of the similar characteristics of Trump that he'll

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Speaker 6: never be able to shake. But then we're also seeing

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Speaker 6: a few different moves from him in terms of being

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Speaker 6: a little bit more orderly so that we know what's

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Speaker 6: going to happen in packaging. Packaging, Yes, good way to here.

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Speaker 2: But boy, some old style showbiz for the now once

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Speaker 2: again president. Remember the season finale on The Apprentice, when

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Speaker 2: they did the live show, they rebuilt the whole boardroom

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Speaker 2: on stage. That's kind of what it felt like last

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Speaker 2: night in this rally at the Capitol. Once there, he

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Speaker 2: sat down at a desk with a presidential seal to

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Speaker 2: start signing eos yes.

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Speaker 6: And that again is part of his intent to really

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Speaker 6: start out with a bang and to demonstrate that not

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Speaker 6: only am I back, I am really in control and

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Speaker 6: I am clearing out a lot of the things that

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Speaker 6: I promised to change. He promised quick action on the border.

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Speaker 6: He delivered that. Now implementation, of course, is another challenge,

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Speaker 6: you know, but at least he has signed the paper

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Speaker 6: and he is going to push his agencies to really

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Speaker 6: try to make good. You know, when you think about

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Speaker 6: immigration and force and it happens on the ground, far

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Speaker 6: away from any signing ceremony here in Washington. It requires

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Speaker 6: a lot of people. But he has set that emotion.

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Speaker 6: And then he did some other things too.

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Speaker 1: TikTok.

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Speaker 6: He gave the company.

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Speaker 2: Last time we were here, we were talking, we were

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Speaker 2: asking questions. No one knew what was going to happen.

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Speaker 2: Good they go dark. Think of what's happened since then.

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Speaker 6: Well, although we still have a lot of questions on

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Speaker 6: that show. Yeah, a one of them is was the

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Speaker 6: order that he signed actually legal under the law, And

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Speaker 6: we just had you mentioned a Bloomberg Technology. We just

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Speaker 6: had Congressman Jake Oakincloss on our show who was questioning

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Speaker 6: whether Trump's order was legal according to the statute that

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Speaker 6: Trump's predecessor Joe Biden signed back in April of last year,

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Speaker 6: and that requires the company to show progress toward a deal.

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Speaker 6: This progress actually has to be verified and vetted by

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Speaker 6: the administration and shared with members of Congress, and there

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Speaker 6: actually has to be some paperwork to back it all up.

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Speaker 6: And we've seen not only none of that, we've also

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Speaker 6: seen both Wyte Dance and the Chinese government really resist

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Speaker 6: any idea of selling TikTok Amazing.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like, to your point, we have a lot

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Speaker 2: to learn there, but you can't envision a world in

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Speaker 2: which it goes away. I'm guessing either with Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: back in the White House.

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Speaker 6: It's it is hard to imagine. And I think right

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Speaker 6: now the real question is what does Beijing. What do

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Speaker 6: the government officials and leaders there have to say about

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Speaker 6: the latest ideas coming through from Trump, including this idea

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Speaker 6: of a possible joint venture between the involving the US

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Speaker 6: government taking some sort of ownership stake. I imagine their

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Speaker 6: heads may be exploding even on you know, at the

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Speaker 6: very thought of that idea, and then the company, you know,

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Speaker 6: this is a key part of its operations. They surely

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Speaker 6: don't want to lose access to that customer base and

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Speaker 6: to all that revenue setting aside, even the national security

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Speaker 6: concerns that you know we've been hearing about for years

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Speaker 6: here in Washington.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is your moment, Mike Shepherd, not only the

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Speaker 2: TikTok story, but the titans of tech here in Washington,

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Speaker 2: the true crossover here of technology policy and politics landing

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Speaker 2: in your lap. The optics yesterday of these guys, Tim Cook,

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Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg, the Elon Musk. Of course, they're standing right

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Speaker 2: there with Donald Trump's future cabinet as if they were

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Speaker 2: part of the cabinet. Elon Musk specifically, he's dancing around

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Speaker 2: the stage literally yesterday. What does it mean for his

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Speaker 2: business and for the others.

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Speaker 6: The stakes are enormous, and that is in part why

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Speaker 6: you see the industry pivoting toward Trump in such a

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Speaker 6: remarkable way. Let's turn the clock back four years. We

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Speaker 6: were coming out of the January sixth attack on the

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Speaker 6: US Capitol by Trump's supporters who were angered that, you know,

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Speaker 6: and couldn't believe that he had lost the election to

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Speaker 6: Joe Biden. That attack on the US Capitol prompted so

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Speaker 6: many companies, but especially the tech industry, to really back

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Speaker 6: away and turn away from Trump. And yet, you know,

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Speaker 6: with the odds growing that he would return to power

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Speaker 6: and return to off, we saw this pivot. It was

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Speaker 6: happening slowly and then it gained some steam, and of

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Speaker 6: course when he won the election, Mark Zuckerberg really made

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Speaker 6: a very hard pivot, adding Dana White to the board

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Speaker 6: of Meta, also pulling down some of the content moderation

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Speaker 6: that they put into place after, you know, after January sixth.

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Speaker 6: So all of these measures, everything that was old in

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Speaker 6: a way is becoming new again. And the industry is

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Speaker 6: really placing a lot of its chips on Trump.

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Speaker 2: That's for sure. Chips and Coins. Didn't even have time

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Speaker 2: to ask you about trump Coin. We'll do that next time.

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Speaker 2: Mike Shepard, thank you so much, Mike, loving you on

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg Technology. Thank you as always for spending time with

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Speaker 2: us here at the table on Balance of Power. I'm

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Speaker 2: Joe Matthew in Washington. I feel like Mark Zuckerberg's hair

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Speaker 2: will be a proxy here of high text relationship with Trump.

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Speaker 2: The longer it gets right, we know where. Wait till

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Speaker 2: he gets the short hair back? What will they say?

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Speaker 2: Douglas holt Zeken joined next on the fastest show in politics,

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Speaker 2: Leadership heads to the White House Today from the Hill.

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Speaker 2: It's next on Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power Podcast. Catch

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Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple.

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Speaker 7: Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App.

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Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

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Speaker 1: flagship New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.

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Speaker 2: The new carpeting in place in the Oval Office. The

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Speaker 2: old golden drapes will stay there. Those were Donald Trump's drapes.

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden never changed them, so they stay. What else happened?

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Speaker 2: They got Andrew Jackson back out there in a couple

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Speaker 2: of other changes, the furniture. This is all part of

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Speaker 2: the transition, of course. Winston Churchill's bust is back in

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Speaker 2: the Oval Office. Be curious to see what it looks

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Speaker 2: like when it's all done. Yeah, Producer James reminds the

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Speaker 2: military flags also back in place lining the room. Joe

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Speaker 2: Biden got rid of those. So imagine the setting today

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Speaker 2: for John Thune and Mike Johnson walking into the Trump

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Speaker 2: White House on the first full day. The strange thing is,

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Speaker 2: we were supposed to have answers to these questions about sequencing,

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Speaker 2: about one beautiful bill or not back at the Army

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Speaker 2: Navy game. Remember they were going to do this over nachos.

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Speaker 2: But we're still today asking the same questions we were

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Speaker 2: following Donald Trump's visit to Capitol Hill. Nobody seems to

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Speaker 2: exactly know quite the way this is going to work out,

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Speaker 2: which makes it a lot more difficult for the people

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Speaker 2: writing the bills. That's why this meeting is very important today.

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Speaker 2: And we like to think by the way microphones the sticks,

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Speaker 2: as they call on their setup in the driveway the

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Speaker 2: White House, so we hear from those two leaders. Sticks

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Speaker 2: would be the tripods. Wonder what Douglas Holtzecin is thinking

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Speaker 2: about this, because we have huge questions about how we're

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Speaker 2: going to fund the government past March, what we're going

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Speaker 2: to do with the debt ceiling, and how this all

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Speaker 2: comes together with some of the other policy changes that

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Speaker 2: they want to put inside a reconciliation package. He is

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Speaker 2: President of the American Action Forum, former director of the CBO. Oh,

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Speaker 2: just wait until they start scoring this stuff. Douglas holtz Eken,

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Bloomberg. It's great to see you. What

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Speaker 2: do you think they e merge with a plan today?

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Speaker 8: At least, I think that would be wise. I don't

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Speaker 8: think that's been their track record. They've been unable to

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Speaker 8: get on the same page for quite a time now.

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Speaker 8: As you pointed out, it's going to have to come

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Speaker 8: together quickly.

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Speaker 5: I mean, people forget that.

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Speaker 8: They don't just get to vote on the one big

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Speaker 8: beautiful bill. They have to write budget resolutions in the

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Speaker 8: House and Senate pass those that give them the authority

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Speaker 8: to write the one big beautiful bill. Get one that

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Speaker 8: can pass the House one vote margin, get one that

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Speaker 8: can pass the Senate maybe a few more votes there,

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Speaker 8: and then agree on it and get it to the

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Speaker 8: president's test. That's a lot of work, and as you mentioned,

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Speaker 8: there are some real speed bumps in between. There's funding

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Speaker 8: the government, there's the debt limit. The Senate has to

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Speaker 8: confirm these nominees. It's going to be very hard to

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Speaker 8: hit the president's hundred daymark. I wanted to do this

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Speaker 8: quickly there's no evidence that they've got a plan in

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Speaker 8: place that will get it done that quickly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I forgot about the diet coke button, Douglas. That's

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Speaker 2: back in the White House too. Can I get a

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Speaker 2: diet coke button in here?

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Speaker 9: Is that?

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Speaker 2: I feel like we could do that at Bloomberg. So

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Speaker 2: with all of that in mind, Mike Johnson says he

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Speaker 2: wants to be voting by the end of February. That's

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Speaker 2: not possible, is it.

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Speaker 8: Anything's possible, But I'm not optimistic about that timeline. I

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Speaker 8: would be thrilled if they had a plan to govern,

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Speaker 8: that they had a schedule for votes that everyone had

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Speaker 8: agreed on House and Senate. I mean, that's what you

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Speaker 8: really need to see. So far, we've heard, you know,

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Speaker 8: the majority of leader in the sense saying I'd love

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Speaker 8: to do two bills, the House saying we want one bill,

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Speaker 8: the present saying I want one big, beautiful bill. But

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Speaker 8: if two works, that's fine. So getting to a specific

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Speaker 8: data which to vote, I think the first thing is

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Speaker 8: to decide what are you going to vote on.

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Speaker 5: Let's do that.

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Speaker 2: So boy, it just sounds to me then like Donald

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Speaker 2: try Up needs to tell him what to do. Is

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Speaker 2: it a matter of giving direction here or is it

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Speaker 2: up to the leaders to count the votes and tell

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Speaker 2: him what's going on?

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Speaker 8: Big changes twenty seventeen tax bills, This effort require presidential leadership.

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Speaker 8: There is no question that it's very helpful to members

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Speaker 8: of the House and Senate if they can go back

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Speaker 8: home to the town hall and say, look, the President

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Speaker 8: asked me to do this. I don't love everything this bill.

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Speaker 8: We improved on what he suggested. It's a step in

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Speaker 8: the right direction, but the president has to get it down.

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Speaker 8: We're going to get it done. You need that kind

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Speaker 8: of air cover if you're going to make very tough

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Speaker 8: votes in either chamber of Congress.

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Speaker 2: Right, Okay, I think the CBO needs some air cover, though, Douglas,

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Speaker 2: Based on what I'm reading, there is a thought among

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Speaker 2: the Republican conference that the CBO is not being straight up,

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Speaker 2: that it's not by part is enough. The scoring is

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Speaker 2: somehow wrong. Are we about to try to reinvent this

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Speaker 2: whole system?

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Speaker 5: I hope not.

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Speaker 8: I genuinely would defend the cb track record. Are doing

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Speaker 8: non partisan, you know, fact based scoring of the bills.

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Speaker 8: Does that mean they're right all the time? No, of

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Speaker 8: course not I got things wrong when I was director.

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Speaker 8: Everyone makes mistakes. But the goal for the CBO, the

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Speaker 8: most important thing that Congress can know is bill A

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Speaker 8: versus bill b more or less in the way of deficits.

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Speaker 5: Get them ordered correctly. What's a bigger.

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Speaker 8: Initiative, what's a smaller initiative? Are you going to be

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Speaker 8: right on the number ten years?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 5: No way, that's a bar too high.

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Speaker 8: But let's get the bills ordered correctly, so they they're

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Speaker 8: voting on the thing they.

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Speaker 5: Prefer to vote on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, fascinating. You have to not only deal with

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Speaker 2: the scoring of the CBO, you have to get through

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Speaker 2: something called the parliamentarian here and there are a lot

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Speaker 2: of questions Douglas about what gets through the bird bath

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Speaker 2: as they call it. They're talking about putting a lot

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Speaker 2: of policy into a reconciliation package that's designed for budgeting.

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Speaker 2: How does that work?

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Speaker 8: So the authors of the seventy four Budget Act, which

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Speaker 8: created this reconciliation process, and remember what reconciliation really does

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Speaker 8: allow you to bypass the rules of the Senate. You

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Speaker 8: can't fillibuster the bill. You have a finite amount of debate.

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Speaker 8: You go and take a vote, simple majority and so

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Speaker 8: they said, well, if we're going to bypass the rules

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Speaker 8: of the Senate, we want to do it. We don't

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Speaker 8: want to do it on everything under the sun. Let's

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Speaker 8: do things that are purely budgetarian nature. So now it

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Speaker 8: becomes the parliamentarian's job to decide for a provision is

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Speaker 8: budgetarian nature or not. And if you go back to

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Speaker 8: the build back Better effort under President Biden, the parliamentarian

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Speaker 8: said that raising an enium wage was not budgetarian nature,

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Speaker 8: and it went out. And so there are a whole

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Speaker 8: bunch of them policyitarian nature. Well, there's border policy, there's

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Speaker 8: energy policy. There are all sorts of things that you've

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Speaker 8: heard they'd like to do. And the question is will

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Speaker 8: the parliamentarian agree that those are budgetarian nature or are

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Speaker 8: they primarily.

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Speaker 5: Other policy initiatives.

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Speaker 8: One of the most important things that happened was a

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Speaker 8: week or so ago, quietly majority of Leader Thune said

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Speaker 8: we will not fire the parliamentarian. And you have heard

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Speaker 8: this chatter that was, oh okay, parlam says no, we'll

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Speaker 8: just get another parliamentarian. And he said, no, we're not

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Speaker 8: going to do that. And I thought that was an

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Speaker 8: important line. He drew in the sand of the legislative process.

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Speaker 8: They're going to have to adhere to the decisions this

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Speaker 8: parliamentary makes.

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Speaker 2: It's a really important moment. The fact that John thud

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Speaker 2: said it did that. And I'm glad you mentioned it, Doug,

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Speaker 2: because in a couple of weeks it's going to matter

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Speaker 2: a lot. I haven't mentioned Donald Trump's favorite ord in

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Speaker 2: the dictionary, of course, that's tariffs, and boy, the argument

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Speaker 2: over extending tax cuts somewhat hinges upon revenue from tariffs,

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Speaker 2: and we're not clear exactly on where we're going. He

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Speaker 2: wants to study most of them. Based on what we

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Speaker 2: heard in the Oval Office, he's thinking about pretty significant

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Speaker 2: tariffs against Canada and Mexico. Here's what Donald Trump said

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Speaker 2: in the Oval Office last night.

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Speaker 3: We're thinking in terms of twenty five percent on Mexico

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Speaker 3: and Canada because they're allowing vast numbers of people. Canada

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Speaker 3: is very bad abuseral, so vast numbers of people to

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Speaker 3: come in and fentonyl to come.

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Speaker 2: So we're thinking, Doug, are you starting to wonder if

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Speaker 2: they ever happened? Is this just a bargaining chip?

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Speaker 8: So I think the most interesting thing we've seen thus

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Speaker 8: far in the you know, the one day of the

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Speaker 8: Trump administration. Is that the international front, the place where

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Speaker 8: he has made the most waves on the campaign show

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Speaker 8: and where they leaked immediate action.

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Speaker 5: As the way to go and sort of just shock

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Speaker 5: and awe.

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Speaker 8: He then sends out of memother says, let's study these

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Speaker 8: tariffs and decide.

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Speaker 5: If they're a good idea.

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Speaker 8: And we have seen nothing on deportations, nothing on the

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Speaker 8: immigration front.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's only day one full time.

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Speaker 8: In office, but there really was some real effort to

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Speaker 8: sort of prepare people for the minute he's president.

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Speaker 5: This is going to happen.

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Speaker 8: It hasn't, and so I think that's interesting if you

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Speaker 8: go back to seventeen. First he did big regulatory reform,

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Speaker 8: control the growth of regulatory state. Then he did a

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Speaker 8: big appropriation spill, funded the military in particular, did the

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Speaker 8: tax bill. After that, he picked a trade fight with

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Speaker 8: China and somewhat, are you really slowed the economy down?

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Speaker 5: That was my read at the time.

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Speaker 8: It looks like maybe they want to get the pro

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Speaker 8: growth things in first and then maybe we'll worry about

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Speaker 8: the problematic international provisions.

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Speaker 2: Just as you and I are speaking, headline crosses the terminal.

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Speaker 2: This is from Donald Trump's borders are Tom Homan targeted

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Speaker 2: raids are now happening throughout the US. We're going to

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Speaker 2: see images next, you know, of workplace raids. Correct. What

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Speaker 2: does it mean for the labor market and just the

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Speaker 2: optics around this new administration.

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Speaker 8: Well, I have worried about this as an economic policy

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Speaker 8: for a while. I mean, you've got the images of

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Speaker 8: raids of workplaces. You know, what does that do for

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Speaker 8: the employer employee relations, productivity in the workplace?

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Speaker 5: What does this do for hiring?

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Speaker 8: Do people think about changing jobs and the flexible US

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Speaker 8: labor market that it could freeze up? This is all

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Speaker 8: unknown territory, and you know, so we'll see how broad

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Speaker 8: in scope these are.

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Speaker 5: We'll see who they're trying to target.

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Speaker 8: And you know, the first choice would of course be

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Speaker 8: those with criminal records here illegally. I don't think anyone

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Speaker 8: disagrees with that. We don't want illegal immigration, we want

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Speaker 8: legal immigration. But the ramifications go well past the economics

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Speaker 8: to the social fabric and we'll see how this plays out.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's for sure, it's happening as we speak now.

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Speaker 2: With another headline, Democratic led states sue Trump over birthright

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Speaker 2: citizenship order that of course, was another one of the

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Speaker 2: eos the President brought forth in the Oval Office yesterday

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Speaker 2: that Douglas Holt seeking there's an important meeting today and

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Speaker 2: I know we can get distracted all day long here together.

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Speaker 2: That Donald Trump's back in the White House. We were

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Speaker 2: here to talk about a meeting with John Thune and

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Speaker 2: Mike Johnson. It sounds to me like you're not expecting

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Speaker 2: the earth to shake there and they're going to come

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Speaker 2: out in the driveway, maybe not have that much different

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Speaker 2: to say. Am I right?

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Speaker 8: I expect them to walk out and say we agreed

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Speaker 8: to work on a plan to get this done, and

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Speaker 8: they're going to have to if they do each an agreement,

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Speaker 8: which wuld be very important, they're going to first going

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Speaker 8: back and sell it to their members respectively before they

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Speaker 8: announce the agreement, and so I wouldn't expect any when

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Speaker 8: they walk out of the Oval Office.

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Speaker 2: Great to talk to you, as always, that Douglas whole second,

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Speaker 2: of course, American Action Forum. He's been in Washington for

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Speaker 2: a minute, so think about some of the things we

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Speaker 2: just talked about, particularly what he mentioned about the parliamentary

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Speaker 2: and it's going to be critically important as we watch

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Speaker 2: all of this stuff move forward in the next couple

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Speaker 2: of months. Reminding you that the government runs out of

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Speaker 2: money in the middle of March, and we actually have

439
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 2: a lot of work to do. It's the twenty first

440
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,640
Speaker 2: of January. Before you know it, we're in February. Confirmations

441
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 2: are going to distract us a lot during that time,

442
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,399
Speaker 2: but there has to be some legislating, at least some

443
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 2: crafting of bills to get the ball rolling here. So yes,

444
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 2: we'll have more on this breaking story as a group

445
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 2: of Democratic led states as well as cities launched first

446
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 2: court fight against the new administration today to block the

447
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 2: president's bid to end automatic citizenship for children born in

448
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 2: the US his parents are in the country unlawfully or

449
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 2: on non permanent visas. We're gonna assemble our panel next

450
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 2: with a lot more. It's a brand new day in

451
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 2: the Oval Office. New carpet, diet Coke button. They also

452
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 2: swapped out the bust of Robert F. Kennedy. According to

453
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 2: the Wall Street Journal, new silver eagle figures over the

454
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 2: fireplace on the mantle. It's coming together as we speak,

455
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 2: and we're going to hear from Donald Trump a little

456
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 2: later today. We'll bring it to you live right here

457
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 2: on Bloomberg.

458
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

459
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on

460
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 1: Apple Coarclay, and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App.

461
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch

462
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 1: us live on YouTube.

463
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 10: Before we get that massive infrastructure announcement as they're describing

464
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 10: it at the White House, there's some meetings that need

465
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 10: to take place at the White House first, specifically with

466
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 10: Republican congressional leaderhip. First Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House,

467
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 10: and the Senate Majority Leader John Thune will meet with

468
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 10: the President, and then wider Republican leadership. It's all about

469
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 10: the legislative path forward and how exactly it is going

470
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,400
Speaker 10: to get done. Considering what Donald Trump himself described yesterday

471
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 10: in his remarks at Emancipation Hall as an incredibly narrow

472
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 10: majority in the House of Representatives.

473
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 4: Congratulate Mike Johnson for the job that he's doing. Stup,

474
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 4: we gave him a majority of almost nothing. And then

475
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 4: I said, to make it tougher on him, let me

476
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 4: take two or three of the people, right, I said,

477
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 4: he'll only have to suffer with that for about three months.

478
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 4: How are they doing, by the way, are they Is

479
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:45,479
Speaker 4: that moving along?

480
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 10: So there you have it, saying the quiet part out loud.

481
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, good luck with that.

482
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 5: Yeah.

483
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 2: Could be a majority of one if things go as plans.

484
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 11: Yeah.

485
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 10: So let's go to one member of that majority ing

486
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 10: us live now from Capitol Hill here on Bloomberg TV

487
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 10: and Radio. As Congressman Chuck Fleischman, Republican representing Tennessee's third district,

488
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 10: Welcome back to balance of power, Congressman, as we await

489
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 10: the readout, if you will, from the meeting the Speaker

490
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 10: and John Thune will have with the President today. It's

491
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 10: really going to be about the way in which a

492
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 10: reconciliation package can move forward. We know the Speaker thinks

493
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 10: it has to be one big bill. But are there

494
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 10: right now two hundred and eighteen votes in the House

495
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 10: for one big bill.

496
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 2: It's yet to be seen.

497
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 12: We've had very furtive meetings, probably about four or five

498
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 12: meetings in the House Republican Caucus to discuss this one

499
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 12: bill or two. The President wants one bill. I think

500
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 12: the vast majority of members in the House will accede

501
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 12: and agree to that as one bill.

502
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 5: But we're going to have to do account You're absolutely right.

503
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 12: We will have a one vote majority in the House

504
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 12: provided everyone shows up on both sides until April, when

505
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 12: the two Florida seats will be they'll be filled by Republicans.

506
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 12: Ultimately we'll have about a four seat majority, but it's

507
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 12: going to be difficult. It's a process. I applaud the

508
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 12: President and the House and Senate leaders for discussing reconciliation.

509
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 12: What will be in, what will be out, what we

510
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 12: can do, and what we can't do. I'm an appropriator.

511
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 12: We have appropriations to get done that cannot be done

512
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 12: through reconciliation. So actually refining and defining the process is

513
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 12: critically important and making sure that.

514
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 5: We meet and move forward.

515
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 12: So can we get it done?

516
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 3: Yes?

517
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 12: I applaud all of our leadership and President Trump for

518
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 12: being very methodical in the way he's gone about this.

519
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 12: We're laying everything out transparency for everybody in both parties

520
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 12: and more importantly for the American people.

521
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: Well, that said a congressman, and it's good to have

522
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 2: you back in Washington and with us here on Bloomberg.

523
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 2: What does that mean when you look at the calendar,

524
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: what's realistic Mike Johnson says he wants votes by the

525
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 2: end of February, but you just invokes regular or if

526
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: we're going to actually go through the real budgeting process

527
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 2: and handle reconciliation separately, manage the debt ceiling, is that realistic?

528
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 12: Well, it's yet to be seen whether or not the

529
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 12: debt ceiling will be part of reconciliation under the terms

530
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 12: of reconciliation, If we do debt ceiling that way, we

531
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 12: will be obligated by law to pick a specific number.

532
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 12: Some members will have an aversion towards that. Some of

533
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 12: our more conservative members might not want to put a

534
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 12: number on that. I don't know where the President stands

535
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 12: on that, but these are ongoing investigations.

536
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 5: Again, if it's.

537
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 12: One big bill, what will be in, what will be out.

538
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 12: There'll be certain things that will be less palliative to

539
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 12: some of the members that may not get in the

540
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 12: big bill. So we're just going to have to wait

541
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 12: and see what we can get the two eighteen with

542
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 12: where the votes are. And the best part about it

543
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 12: is we go through a very specific whipping process. By that,

544
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 12: I mean every member will be asked where they're going

545
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 12: to be on reconciliation and why and what their thoughts are.

546
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 12: If they are in a no position, what can we

547
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 12: do to get them to yes? What do they want

548
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 12: in or out of the bill. So we do have time,

549
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 12: it is shortened field, but we are being very careful

550
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 12: and very thoughtful. Again, we've had three or four meetings

551
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 12: already on this. All have been very furtive, all have

552
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 12: been productive, and we're listening to our membership from top

553
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 12: to bottom well.

554
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 10: And of course this is all what the executive branch

555
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 10: and legislative branch will be working on together. But as

556
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 10: Joe and I were describing, I'm sure you heard, Congressman

557
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 10: Donald Trump has taken a lot of action already through

558
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 10: the power of the executive including announcing what he calls

559
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 10: a national energy emergency. Has outlined in his inaugural address yesterday.

560
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 4: Let's listen, the inflation crisis was caused by massive overspending

561
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 4: and escalating energy prices. And that is why today I

562
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 4: will also declare a national energy emergency.

563
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: We will drill baby.

564
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 10: Congressman, is drill baby, drill enough to get not just

565
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 10: energy prices, but prices across the board down? And what

566
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 10: role do other forms of energy like wind, for example,

567
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 10: which the President also issued orders pulling back on yesterday.

568
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 10: Play in this.

569
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,239
Speaker 12: I'm glad you asked me this question because this is

570
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 12: my wheelhouse. I chair the Energy and Water Subcommittee of Appropriations,

571
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 12: so I fund the Department of Energy all of the

572
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 12: energy initiatives. I share eight congressional caucuses dealing with energy.

573
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 12: I just launched the American Dominance in Energy Caucus with

574
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 12: Democrats and Republicans to answer this question. Drill belluyby drill

575
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 12: is a great start. We need to utilize our oil,

576
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 12: our gas, our abundant fossil fuels. I am a champion

577
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 12: of nuclear. I'm the nuclear congressperson in either House. I

578
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 12: work with people across the aisle. We need new nuclear,

579
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 12: we need geothermal. We need abundant.

580
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 5: Energy in America.

581
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 12: If we do not act, and I applaud President Trump

582
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 12: for being so aggressive on energy, and there is an

583
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 12: energy emergency because we're going to need energy to propel AI.

584
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 12: We're gonna need energy to propel our great manufacturing boom

585
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 12: in this country. We want to make absolutely certain that

586
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 12: we have abundant energy. It will be oil, it will

587
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 12: be gas, it will be nuclear, geothermal, solar will have

588
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 12: a place. So we want to make sure we have

589
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 12: abundant energy, but it's got to be common sense abundant energy.

590
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: Well, we've established the need, Congressman, and we've talked about

591
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: this with you more than once here on Bloomberg TV

592
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: and radio. You look at stocks like Constellation taking off here,

593
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 2: we know the demand is there. We also know that

594
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: the red tape is there. What did Donald Trump do

595
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,479
Speaker 2: in those executive orders yesterday that will actually lead to

596
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: a new nuclear power plant this country?

597
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 12: Well, actually, fortunately, if you look at the fiscal twenty

598
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 12: twenty five budget, which I wrote for the Energy and

599
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 12: Water Bill in the House, it proposes close to nine

600
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 12: billion dollars in new.

601
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 5: Funding for new nuclear.

602
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,719
Speaker 12: In terms of executive orders, he's going to make it

603
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 12: easier for all energy companies to do business. But as

604
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 12: we focus somewhat in a parochial sense on nuclear, we've

605
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 12: got to be wise about it. There's a lot of

606
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 12: designs out there, there's a lot of different fuel systems,

607
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 12: Generation three, generation four, We've got to choose wisely. I've

608
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 12: already spoken with Secretary right incoming Secretary Right he has

609
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 12: yet to be confirmed. He and I have spoken Secretary

610
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 12: Bergham and I have spoken, we are going to work

611
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 12: together to make sure that it's economically feasible.

612
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 5: But the key is going to be yesterday.

613
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 12: I believe President Trump named the Nuclear Regulatory Commission chair.

614
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 5: That is going to be very important.

615
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 12: Why clear regulatory Commission is important for safe nuclear? Nuclear

616
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 12: is safe. But they need to move in a more

617
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 12: swift fashion. They're too slow, they're too lethargic. We have

618
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 12: got to get going. Why Russia, China, even our friends

619
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 12: the Frends in the South Koreans and the Canadians are

620
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 12: moving ahead of us. If we focus, and I know

621
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 12: one thing about President Trump, he will focus.

622
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 5: On getting it done right.

623
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 12: New nuclear will boom in America.

624
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 10: Congressman, just quickly before we let you go. We only

625
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 10: have about forty five seconds here. But on January sixth,

626
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 10: twenty twenty one, you called it a sad day and

627
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 10: condemned the actions that took place. Do you have a reaction, sir,

628
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 10: to the pardon of the more than fifteen hundred people

629
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 10: who were convicted of crimes on that day?

630
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,479
Speaker 12: Well? As a member of the legislative branch, I had

631
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 12: been on the House floor that day, was subject to

632
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 12: a bomb threat in my office where my whole staff

633
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 12: had to leave. That does not get talked about a lot,

634
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 12: But the reality is I'm going to defer to President

635
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 12: Trump on the pardons. That is something of the executive branch.

636
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 12: I'm in the legislative branch as a constitutionalist. I will

637
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 12: defer to President Trump and his judgment. All Right, we

638
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 12: had a great first day. I hope he has a

639
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 12: great four years and I'm here to help him.

640
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 2: Congress and we appreciate you coming back. This Chuck Fleischman,

641
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: Republican from Tennessee's third District. We're gonna have a lot

642
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: more on those January sixth pardons coming up. Our signature

643
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 2: panels on the way. Next, this is Bloomberg.

644
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

645
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm.

646
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 7: He's durn on Apple, Cockley and Android Auto with the

647
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 7: Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon

648
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 7: Alexa from our flagship New York station Just Say Alexa

649
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 7: played Bloomberg eleven thirty.

650
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 10: I'm Kaylee Lines alongside Joe Matthew here in Washington, where,

651
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 10: of course it's the first full day of the second

652
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 10: Trump administration. The President began his day today with, as

653
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 10: his tradition, prayer service at the National Cathedral. He's now

654
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 10: back at the White House, where just about thirty minutes

655
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 10: from now he's scheduled to meet with Republican congressional leadership.

656
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 10: Both the House Speaker Mike Johnson and some Majority leader

657
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 10: John Thune will be arriving to discuss the legislative agenda.

658
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 10: And while Joe, we often frame this as just the

659
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 10: path forward on budget reconciliation, we do have to keep

660
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 10: in mind there's a government that needs to be funded

661
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 10: beyond the deadline of March fourteenth, the debt ceiling that

662
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 10: is going to need to be raised at some point,

663
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 10: and a very tight majority in the House you're working

664
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 10: with to get it all done.

665
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: That's true. With a live view of the West Wing,

666
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 2: the entrance that will at some point carry the congressional

667
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: leadership toward the Oval office, they'll likely emerge. Microphones and

668
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: cameras are set up with the driveway to maybe get

669
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: a sense of what it was like in the room.

670
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: Because you're right, Kelly, we don't have a way forward

671
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: on any of these items, despite the fact they've been

672
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: talking about it for weeks. Still don't know if it's

673
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: one big beautiful bill. Go back to the Army Navy game.

674
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 2: It was supposed to be hashed out weeks and weeks ago,

675
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: and we're still not there yet.

676
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 10: And I'm just going to add something else to this list.

677
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 10: You still have to get the rest of Trump's cabinet

678
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 10: confirmed at some point two in a second. Times can

679
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 10: be arduous in its processes to get everything done. Marca

680
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 10: Rubio the first to be sworn in today.

681
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, Scott Bessett. By the way, cleared committee,

682
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: we should let our audience know the incoming likely incoming

683
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: Treasury secretary now goes to the floor where he also

684
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 2: is expected to be confirmed. But yes, Marco Rubio becomes

685
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: the first. We'll have a lot more coming up with

686
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 2: our signature panel here. You want to bring in Rick

687
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 2: and Jeanie Sure Bloomber Politics contributors, of course, they were

688
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 2: with us on innauguration Day, Democratic analyst Jenie Shanzano, of course,

689
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 2: and Republican strategist Rick Davis, partner at Stone Court Capital.

690
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: A lot more to talk about here as we get

691
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: ready for this meeting. Genie, what's going to happen inside

692
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 2: the Oval today? Will they craft a plan.

693
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 11: I don't know if they're craft a plan, but they

694
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 11: certainly have a lot to talk about.

695
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 12: You know.

696
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 11: I think one of the things we forget is that

697
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 11: Donald Trump's first term he did not have an enormous

698
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 11: number of legislative victories. You know, certainly the twenty seventeen

699
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 11: tax bill was a big one for him, but beyond that,

700
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 11: legislative victories were few and far between. I mean, I

701
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 11: think we all remember there was a running joke during

702
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 11: his term and terms before his that every week was

703
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 11: infrastructure Week, but nobody could pass the bill. And so

704
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 11: what he set out for himself in terms of the

705
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 11: legislation he wants to get passed in Congress, it is

706
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 11: a huge, big, looming setup. Priorities he had and that

707
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 11: you know, you just went through some of them, and

708
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 11: that's what they're going to be discussing. And it's not

709
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 11: just on reconciliation one or two bills, it's what the

710
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 11: heck is that bill going to have in it? What

711
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 11: are his must haves? For instance? And I think the

712
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 11: debt ceiling is going to be the thing that frustrates

713
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 11: him the most. And of course you've got a narrow

714
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 11: majority in the House, So there's a lot for them

715
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 11: to discuss in there today, and it's stuff that Donald

716
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 11: Trump probably doesn't love about his job, which is the

717
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 11: nitty gritty of legislation, and.

718
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 10: Yet it's the job that he has as of twenty

719
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 10: five hours or so ago. Rick, He's going to have

720
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 10: to work with Congress on this stuff, obviously, and Congress

721
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 10: is going to have to figure out how to work together.

722
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 10: How much of this meeting do you expect could actually

723
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 10: be Trump and Johnson, who seemed to be on the

724
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 10: same page with reconciliation, trying to convince thoone to get

725
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 10: vocally on board.

726
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

727
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 13: Look, I mean, this isn't the first meeting they've had,

728
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 13: and I think they've sort of found each other's priorities.

729
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 2: A lot of it's going to be now really up

730
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: to Donald Trump.

731
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 13: I mean, you know, we know Thune is pushing a

732
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 13: two bill reconciliation package, one in the spring, one in

733
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 13: the winter or fall of next year, round the end

734
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 13: of the fiscal year at the end of September, and so,

735
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 13: and we know that Johnson's going to do whatever Donald

736
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 13: Trump wants to do, right, I mean, I think it's

737
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 13: unfair to actually say that Johnson has a point of view.

738
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 13: Johnson echoes the point of view of the president, and

739
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 13: so this is totally up to Donald Trump. He's going

740
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 13: to make the call, and I think he's going to

741
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 13: make it today. I don't think they want to delay action.

742
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 13: I mean, you know, getting something done by March fifteenth

743
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 13: is not going to be easy. And they they're running

744
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 13: up against all these deadlines, like the continuing Resolution. I mean,

745
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 13: the deadlimit deadline has passed tomorrow. It's you know, or

746
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 13: passed on the second in January. So we're only we're

747
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 13: working off of extraordinary measures now that'll maybe get us

748
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 13: into the spring summer. So like, these are things piling up,

749
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 13: and his Congressman Fleischmann said, they've got all this other stuff,

750
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 13: these confirmations to do regular order around appropriations and authorizations.

751
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 13: It's it's going to be a capacity problem if they

752
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 13: think they can do it all in one bill.

753
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: So I think Fune will come out with a victory.

754
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 13: But I think there's going to be some definition to

755
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 13: it today because after the Thune Johnson meeting, they bring

756
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 13: in the leadership of both the House and the Senate,

757
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 13: and I assume that's to get the marching orders.

758
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: Well, it would help to get some directions today and

759
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: we'll keep tabs on what we hear. That meeting is

760
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: set to begin over a half hour from now at

761
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,439
Speaker 2: the White House. We have the matter of January six

762
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 2: pardons to discuss. Donald Trump danced around this throughout the

763
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 2: day yesterday. He talked about the fact that pardons were coming.

764
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 2: We didn't know until late yesterday inside the Oval Office

765
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: what we would get. Here's Donald Trump from earlier in

766
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 2: the day.

767
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 4: Tonight, I'm going to be signing on the Jay six

768
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 4: hostages pardons to get them out. And as soon as

769
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 4: I leave, I'm going to the Oval Office and we'll

770
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 4: be signing pardons for a lot of people, a lot

771
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:39,760
Speaker 4: of people.

772
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: And it was a lot of people, about fifteen hundred,

773
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 2: including violent offenders who attacked the capital and attacked police

774
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 2: officers on January sixth, Full complete and unconditional pardons, including

775
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: the likes of Enrique Tario, the former national leader of

776
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: the Proud Boys walking free today. His mother was tweeting

777
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 2: about it last night. Now, Genie, if you look at

778
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 2: the video that we just showed, Donald Trump was standing

779
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 2: in front of family members of hostages who were taken

780
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 2: in Gaza, including an actual freed hostage who was there

781
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: on the stage last night. They were presumably brought up

782
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: on the stage to show respect and tribute to their

783
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: family members. There they are again with the yellow scarves on,

784
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump turned to the podium and started talking

785
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 2: about January sixth offenders as hostages received quite a bit

786
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: of applause. Was that the proper way to roll this out?

787
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: Jeanie Chanzeno, I.

788
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 11: Don't think there is a proper way to roll this out.

789
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 11: I think we have a president now who fulfilled his

790
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 11: promise of pardoning these folks. But he did this on

791
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 11: the heels of an inauguration where he promised to restore

792
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 11: law and order. And what did he do hours later,

793
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 11: after being after being kept safe all day and for

794
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 11: the campaign trail by security, he went in and pardoned

795
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 11: people who are convicted of the most violent crimes against

796
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 11: police officers in our country. And I don't know how

797
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 11: you swear that it's an attempt to whitewash history and

798
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 11: what it has left in people's minds, and your point

799
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 11: about the hostages is absolutely important. It has left the

800
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 11: idea that he's wanting to support police officers and ensure

801
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 11: that anybody who commits violence against them is held responsible

802
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 11: unless the police officers are doing something that he doesn't like,

803
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 11: and that is a problem. So I don't know if

804
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 11: there's a good way to do this. And let's not

805
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 11: forget that QAnon Shaman who was released as well, or

806
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 11: at his sentence ut of jail. He went on social

807
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 11: media last night and applauded the fact that he's been

808
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 11: pardoned and he can go out and buy some guns now.

809
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 11: So that's what the president does, which which is why

810
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 11: this was there's no right way to do this, and

811
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 11: he chose the wrong way in pardoning all of these

812
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 11: people in a blanket pardon, regardless of their crimes or

813
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 11: their charges.

814
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 10: But Rick, on the other hand, isn't this exactly what

815
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 10: he has long said he would do. Should anyone be

816
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 10: surprised by him actually taking this action?

817
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 13: Well, this is actually one where you know, it's a

818
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 13: classic example of almost reverse right where you say, don't

819
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 13: listen to what he says, see what he does, and

820
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 13: usually what he does is less impactful than what he says.

821
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 13: In this case. Throughout the campaign, he kept it kind

822
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 13: of general as to whether he would pardon the violent offenders.

823
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 13: Three hundred and seventy nine of the fifteen hundred that

824
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 13: he pardoned had attacked police and caused damage to the Capitol,

825
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 13: and that wasn't a very politically favorable thing to do,

826
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 13: so he kind of left it open, and even as

827
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 13: Vice President went out as early as just a few

828
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 13: weeks ago did an interview saying, you know, like, no,

829
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 13: we wouldn't we wouldn't give those guys a break there.

830
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 13: Anybody who attacks a cop should serve time. And so

831
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 13: it's pretty clear that what his intention was was much

832
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 13: worse than what he was willing to say. This was

833
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 13: one where even members of Congress were caught by surprise thinking, well,

834
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 13: wait a minute, I thought he was saying that he

835
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 13: was only going to do the non violent misdemeanors and

836
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 13: people like that. So I got to tell you, I

837
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 13: think this was a inside job. Those folks around Donald Trump,

838
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 13: you know, who had relationships with the Proud Boys and

839
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 13: the folks who did the organize the attack, obviously weighed

840
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 13: in on his interests, and I'm not sure it was

841
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 13: even widely vetted within the staff who were in the

842
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 13: process of preparing all these documents. Because this was one

843
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 13: where what he did was different than what he said.

844
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, interesting. The group Protect Democracy put a list

845
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 2: together of lawmakers comments JD. Vance as well to your point, Rick,

846
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 2: who said, if you committed violence on that day, obviously

847
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 2: you should not be pardoned. Senator Katie Britt said, I

848
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 2: agree with JD. Senator Josh Holly, Republican. Of course I'm

849
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: against it for people who assaulted cops, through stuff at cops,

850
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 2: broke down doors, broke windows, Genie, there's an equivalency thing

851
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 2: here going on too. Of course, Joe Biden was roundly criticized,

852
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 2: I think by including you as well, for pardoning members

853
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 2: of his family on his way out the door yesterday.

854
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 2: In our remaining moment, why do you not see those

855
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 2: in the same.

856
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 11: Way pardning members are your family. As you mentioned, I

857
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 11: am not a fan of that, nor am I a

858
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 11: fan of preemptive pardons, but that is highly different than

859
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 11: pardoning people who attacked violently police officers in our nation's capital.

860
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 11: And Senator Tom Tillis, a Republican, was right when he

861
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 11: said it makes the capital less safe, and you can't

862
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 11: have it both ways. We all have to condemn violence

863
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 11: where ever we find it. Donald Trump is now saying

864
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 11: some violence is forgivable and okay when it's in my interest,

865
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 11: and other violence I'm not accepting, and that is a

866
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 11: problem for all of us and it should be condemned,

867
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 11: all right.

868
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 10: Jeanie Schanzeno and Rick Davis, Bloomberg Politics contributors, our signature

869
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 10: political panel, thank you for joining us, and of course

870
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 10: we're going to have more on pardon still ahead with

871
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 10: Kim Whaley. She's professor at the University of Baltimore School

872
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 10: of Law and an expert on pardons. That's still ahead

873
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 10: here on Balance of Power on Bloomberg TV and radio.

874
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

875
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,760
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple.

876
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,479
Speaker 7: Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App.

877
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,919
Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch

878
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: us live on YouTube.

879
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 2: You wonder who will do the first in rikue Taria interview,

880
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: who will do the Stuart Rhodes sit down? Will there

881
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 2: be soft seeding they've been pardoned by Donald Trump, of course.

882
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: Among the most violent January sixth offenders, Enrique Tarrio, the

883
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,959
Speaker 2: former leader of the Crown Boys, Stuart Rhodes, the Oathkeepers,

884
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 2: Ryan Samsel, the first rioter to breach police lines. Guy Refitt,

885
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 2: who carried a firearm during a standoff with police to

886
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,240
Speaker 2: help the lead the way to the Capitol pardoned among

887
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 2: fifteen hundred pardoned by Donald Trump and a series of

888
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: pardons and commutations. It's pardon fever in Washington. You heard

889
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 2: about Joe Biden naming family members on the way out

890
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 2: the door. Here's Donald Trump on the way in.

891
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 8: First, we have a list of pardons and commutations relating

892
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 8: to events that occurred on January sixth, twenty twenty one.

893
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 4: Okay, and how many people is this?

894
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 6: I think this order will apply to approximately fifteen hundred people, sir.

895
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:56,760
Speaker 4: So this is January sixth. These are the hostages, approximately

896
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 4: fifteen hundred for a pardon, yes, full pardon.

897
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 10: Of course, what he's referring to as hostages, in most

898
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 10: instances were people who had been convicted of crimes committed

899
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,720
Speaker 10: on that day, many of whom pleaded guilty to those crimes.

900
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 10: So for more on this, now we want to turn

901
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 10: to a pardon expert. Kim Waaley is with us. She's

902
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 10: professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law. She's

903
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 10: also author of the book Pardon Power, How the Pardon

904
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 10: System Works and Why Kim Thanks for coming back to

905
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 10: balance of power. Would you describe this mass pardon of

906
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 10: nearly fifteen hundred offenders from January sixth, twenty twenty one

907
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 10: is the parton system working?

908
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 9: No, I would not even us the Department guidelines, which

909
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 9: are not binding on presidents. One of the criteria is

910
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,720
Speaker 9: whether the person seeking a pardon could be violent, and

911
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 9: so it's antithetical to the idea behind a pardon and

912
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 9: amnesty pardons in particular, they go all the way back

913
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 9: to George Washington and the Whiskey Rebellion, through the Civil War,

914
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 9: Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Johnson pardoned Confederate soldiers, and then

915
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 9: Jimmy Carter pardoned draft dodgers after the Vietnam War. Mass

916
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 9: pardons traditionally are about healing the country, moving the country

917
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 9: forward after a tragedy under some blanket notion of Americans.

918
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 9: And here this is undermining the legitimacy of the rule

919
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 9: of law. And of course Donald Trump himself was both

920
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 9: impeached and indicted for his role in January sixth, so

921
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 9: he's really standing in solidarity with people who tried to

922
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 9: overthrow the peaceful transfer of power and our constitutional structure itself.

923
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: Well, so then what happens if some of these individuals,

924
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 2: let's say in Ray kue Tario goes on to him

925
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 2: he's convicted of seditious conspiracy, Right, I'm trying to get

926
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: a sense of the precedent here. What happens if they

927
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 2: get in trouble again? Would there be a record to

928
00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: look back on?

929
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 9: So a pardon does not actually wipe out your entire

930
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 9: criminal record. That requires an exoneration by a judge. But

931
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 9: it does more than a commutation. A commutation just changes

932
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 9: your sentence. If you're in prison, you get released. If

933
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 9: you're in death row, you might get life in prison,

934
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 9: for example. But a pardon does lift some of the

935
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 9: strictures on a felony conviction. So you might have broader

936
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 9: access to guns, you might be able to travel to

937
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 9: parts of the world that without a pardon that would

938
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 9: be restricted. You would have access to different kinds of

939
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 9: government benefits, etc. So it does give back some privileges

940
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 9: voting rights in certain states that a peer basic commutation

941
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 9: would not do.

942
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 4: Well.

943
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 10: And it wasn't just about pardons. And commutations. Yesterday, Kim

944
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 10: Trump also, through this action, ordered the Attorney General to

945
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 10: seek the dismissal of the roughly four hundred and fifty

946
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 10: cases that are pending before for judges people who have

947
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 10: been charged but not yet convicted or acquitted. Is there

948
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 10: any guarantee that the dismissal for all of those cases happens?

949
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 10: Is that up to the DOJ or up to the

950
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 10: judges who have those cases before them.

951
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 9: Well, judges actually do have some discretion to decline to

952
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 9: have a case dismissed under the federal rules of criminal procedure.

953
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 9: But I can't imagine any judges would push back on

954
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,439
Speaker 9: that because there wouldn't be anyone to actually move forward

955
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 9: and prosecute those cases. Definitely, Pambondi made clear during her

956
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 9: confirmation hearings that she's in lockstep with this president, which

957
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 9: of course is a different precedent than we've seen since Watergate,

958
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 9: where the Justice Department has been very careful to be

959
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 9: independent of the president so that there aren't conflicts of interest.

960
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 9: Donald Trump ran on using the Justice Department as an

961
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 9: arm of his own retribution, So we're in a different

962
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 9: world right now. I think the judges are going to

963
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 9: be thoughtful about that and seeing new prosecutions and be

964
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,359
Speaker 9: mindful of vindicti prosecutions. But there really isn't a lot

965
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 9: judges can do if the DJ wants to go forward

966
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 9: on certain things.

967
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 2: We're hearing from some of our viewers and listeners here

968
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: throughout the day about the equivalency argument and how one

969
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,399
Speaker 2: can criticize Donald Trump for what he did after Joe

970
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: Biden pardoned Hunter Biden then yesterday other members of his

971
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 2: family issued preemptive pardons for members of the January sixth

972
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 2: Committee and others. How would you answer them.

973
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 9: There's a lot of confusion around pardons, you know, the

974
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 9: Donald Trump pardons again green lighting political violence. There was

975
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 9: a survey done over the summer bipartisan support Republicans Democrats

976
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 9: did not want to see this because it basically creates

977
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 9: a street army that thinks they're above the law. If

978
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 9: you want a peacefully protest in Washington, the people are

979
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 9: going to now feel emboldened so long as it's in

980
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 9: the name of Donald Trump to come out violently. That's

981
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 9: not I think how we want our children to be

982
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 9: walking around the streets of America. I was not critical

983
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 9: of the Hunter Biden pardon. In part, that's different because

984
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 9: than the family pardons this week, because he went through

985
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 9: years of criminal investigation, both under Trump and under Biden,

986
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 9: and they came up with some pretty low level charges.

987
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 9: And I think his dad was worried about real retribution

988
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 9: given that they've raked him over the coals with that

989
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 9: fact pattern already, these family pardons that are really nebulous.

990
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 9: You know, James Biden did have some issues with his

991
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 9: congressional testimony and a referral to doj for alleged perjury,

992
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 9: but you know, the wives, the other siblings, This really

993
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 9: seems like nepotism taking care of his own and it

994
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 9: does set a bad precedent. And I'll tell you what

995
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 9: the precedent is. It is Listen. Now, with the community ruling,

996
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 9: Donald Trump and future presidents will have, knowing they can

997
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 9: commit crimes all they want, they're going to need to

998
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 9: get people to go along with that to execute those

999
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,839
Speaker 9: criminal orders. I think that Joe Biden pardons of his

1000
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 9: family sort of sets a precedent for just open pardons.

1001
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 9: Open season on pardons really vague to immunize deputy co conspirators.

1002
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 9: So you take immunity, you add the pardon. We have

1003
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 9: a you know, a crime gang in the White House,

1004
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:19,879
Speaker 9: and the Supreme Court basically amended the Constitution to say,

1005
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 9: there's not much that we can do about it unless

1006
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 9: we the people get together and actually amend the Constitution,

1007
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 9: which is not an easy task.

1008
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 10: It certainly is not so when we consider, and you

1009
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 10: were speaking to this earlier, what comes with a pardon

1010
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 10: where the members of the Biden family who have been

1011
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 10: kind of blanket pardoned by him now basically be untouchable

1012
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 10: if they were called to testify before Congress, for example,

1013
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 10: which there have been some signal of Republican lawmakers. Still

1014
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 10: do you intend to do? Is there any way to

1015
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 10: still get at them despite the action the President took yesterday.

1016
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, So the pardon started in twenty fourteen to current

1017
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 9: time period, So in theory, any activity prior to twenty

1018
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 9: fourteen would not be covered. But you know, the Constitution

1019
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 9: says it applies to federal offenses. It's been traditionally perceived

1020
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 9: to be criminal offenses. It hasn't technically been extended to

1021
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 9: civil I don't think there's anything standing in the way

1022
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 9: of arguing that a pardon would somehow give some immunity

1023
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 9: to Congress, but there's congressional to testimony, but there's no

1024
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 9: legal authority for that. It wouldn't protect from an IRS investigation.

1025
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 9: I think there would be litigation around refusing to testify.

1026
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 9: Of course, a pardon, if accepted, basically means you cannot

1027
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 9: invoke the right to against self incrimination under the Fifth Amendment.

1028
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 9: So I think they could probably object to certain questions

1029
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 9: depending on what the context was, but if they fall

1030
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 9: within the pardon, there'd be an argument they would have

1031
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 9: to answer them or be held in contempt of Congress,

1032
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 9: which we saw when Donald Trump's witnesses refused to testify

1033
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 9: before the January sixth Committee. That's also very hard to enforce.

1034
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 2: Kim, you've been great on this. We learn a lot

1035
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,280
Speaker 2: from Kim Whaley, who truly wrote the book on pardons,

1036
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 2: it's called Pardon Power, how the partons system works, and

1037
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 2: why she's a professor at University at Baltimore School of Law.

1038
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make

1039
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 2: sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify,

1040
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts, and you can find

1041
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 2: us live every weekday from Washington, DC at noontime Eastern

1042
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:29,800
Speaker 2: at Bloomberg dot com.