Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
Speaker 2: have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zephim Beast start changing with
Speaker 2: the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 3: Jamie, Caitlyn, when you get knocked down, you have to
Speaker 3: get back up again.
Speaker 1: You're never gonna Spider Man down. I get knocked down.
Speaker 1: Is that what you're doing? I know what you're talking about,
Speaker 1: but you set me up for it.
Speaker 3: He he, No, and I'm glad you did that.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Hello everyone. My name is Caitlin Dante.
Speaker 1: My name is Jamie Loftus, and.
Speaker 3: This is the Bechdel Cast, our show where we where
Speaker 3: we analyze movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Speaker 3: Bechdel Test as a jumping off point. We'll tell you
Speaker 3: what that is in a moment. Today is a special
Speaker 3: episode because we are releasing an episode that we recorded
Speaker 3: for the Matreon. Yes, I think like four years ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we and you in particular were very
Speaker 1: pumped on this movie, as was the world as will
Speaker 1: the world be again, which is why we are unlocking
Speaker 1: our episode about Spider Man into the Spider Verse ahead
Speaker 1: of the sequel, which if you don't know, if you
Speaker 1: live under a rock, no judgment Patrick Starr. Sorry, I
Speaker 1: was watching SpongeBob this morning, okay, brag, I mean literally
Speaker 1: lives under a rock. It's commentary. So Patrick Starr probably
Speaker 1: doesn't know that the sequel comes out this week, and
Speaker 1: we're very excited to see it, so we wanted to
Speaker 1: unlock the episode. Yes, so yeah. This originally appeared on
Speaker 1: our Patreon aka Matreon, which hey, if you like this episode,
Speaker 1: you can pop over there. Five bucks a month, two
Speaker 1: bonus episodes a month, and it's been going since twenty
Speaker 1: seventeen gasp.
Speaker 3: Gasp, And this one was from May twenty nineteen. It
Speaker 3: was one of my birthday episodes that year, so if
Speaker 3: you hear references to it being my birthday throughout the episode,
Speaker 3: that is why. But also it's kind of always my birthday.
Speaker 1: Also, your birthday wasn't that long ago, so truly, let's
Speaker 1: we're going to continue celebrating and observing your birthday.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. We also talk about in this
Speaker 3: episode how Alfred Molina is not in the MCU and
Speaker 3: how that's a crime. Oh good catch, because at the
Speaker 3: time of this recording, he was not in the MCU.
Speaker 3: But then but then Spider Man No Way Home comes
Speaker 3: out well, well well, which is about a different Spider
Speaker 3: Verse than the Miles Morales Spider Verse according to the
Speaker 3: movies at least, I don't know what happens in the comics.
Speaker 3: But Alfred Molina, we are proud to say, is now
Speaker 3: in the MCU.
Speaker 1: He's MCU can and honestly think, freaking god.
Speaker 3: It's about dang time.
Speaker 1: So that's been you know, one of the few things
Speaker 1: Marvelous done right in the last couple of years is
Speaker 1: finally formally induct mister Alfred Blina into the MCU. So yes,
Speaker 1: remember this is the past. These are versions of ourselves
Speaker 1: that are simply so stoked about Spider Man into the
Speaker 1: Spider Verse. And we were right. But things have changed
Speaker 1: and they've actually gotten much worse. So just keep that
Speaker 1: in mind when you're listening to the episode. We have
Speaker 1: no idea how bad things are going to get, and
Speaker 1: so in that way, it's kind of a window to
Speaker 1: the past. It is, but it's true. But we're very
Speaker 1: excited to share it with the main feed. We're obviously
Speaker 1: very pumped for the new movie we will very likely
Speaker 1: be covering the new movie on either the main feed
Speaker 1: or the Matreon down the line. But yeah, we wanted
Speaker 1: to celebrate, so happy summer, and please enjoy the episode
Speaker 1: on Spider Man into the spider Verse.
Speaker 3: Please enjoy. But also, I guess first we should say
Speaker 3: what the Bechdel test is, which we didn't pass when
Speaker 3: we were talking about Alfred Molina, except that we did
Speaker 3: make the rule that when we talk about Alfred Molina,
Speaker 3: it does pass.
Speaker 1: But if you've been with us for a while, you'll
Speaker 1: know that it passes on a technicality.
Speaker 3: However, However, normally the Bechdel Test, which is the media
Speaker 3: metric that we named the show after, even though we
Speaker 3: talk about so much more. But the Bechdel Test is
Speaker 3: a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes
Speaker 3: called the Bechdel Wallace Test. It first appeared in her
Speaker 3: comic Dikes to Watch Out For as a bit and
Speaker 3: also I want to do this more, but just to
Speaker 3: shout out the context in which it appears in the comics,
Speaker 3: because it's two queer women talking about how when they're
Speaker 3: watching a movie and two women appear on screen and
Speaker 3: they talk to each other if they're not talking about
Speaker 3: a man. These characters in the comic strip kind of
Speaker 3: ship the two women together because there was so little
Speaker 3: and still is so little queer visibility on screen. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so that is the context for the Bechdel test, the
Speaker 3: version we use, There are many versions. Here's ours. Two
Speaker 3: characters of a marginalized gender must have names, they have
Speaker 3: to speak to each other, and their conversation has to
Speaker 3: be about something other than a man. And we really
Speaker 3: like it when it's a nice, substantial conversation and not
Speaker 3: just a how's the weather, gale? It's good, Betty.
Speaker 1: Although that's iconic.
Speaker 3: I mean that's that I should write an entire script
Speaker 3: around that conversation alone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it should be called how well not until the
Speaker 1: strikes every Baby, which we will be talking about on
Speaker 1: the Matreon this month. A little peek into some bonus
Speaker 1: content coming up. But yes, we uh that that is
Speaker 1: what the Bechdel test is. It's especially during the month
Speaker 1: of June Pride months. I'm glad that it's something that
Speaker 1: we're talking about the specific context.
Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, So with all of that in mind, please
Speaker 3: enjoy this unlocked Patreon aka Matreon episode on Spider Man
Speaker 3: into the Spider Verse cast.
Speaker 1: Anyways, welcome, We're into the Spider Verse today. I'm excited, Caitlin.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you, if you're familiar with
Speaker 1: our show, you know your history with this movie is.
Speaker 4: But why don't you recap it?
Speaker 3: Well? I did see the movie five times in the theater.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's no me and Itania, but it's pretty impressive.
Speaker 3: Wait. How many times did you end up seeing Ititania?
Speaker 1: Nine? Oh my god, I was really into it. There
Speaker 1: is I have this very cursed screenshot of like the
Speaker 1: two months I was signed up for a movie past
Speaker 1: and it's like nine eye toon Yes, and then an
Speaker 1: unsubscription once I was out of theaters. Oh my goodness, wild.
Speaker 1: But five times is like intense. Yeah, yours you stand
Speaker 1: this movie?
Speaker 3: I really do.
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And then your history.
Speaker 1: Is I just saw it for the first time. I didn't.
Speaker 1: I simply didn't see it in theaters because I was
Speaker 1: too busy watching my DVD of Ititonya at home. But
Speaker 1: I mean, I am a fan. I'm a longtime fan
Speaker 1: of Spider Man.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 1: I think it's really the only superhero I've ever been
Speaker 1: a fan to the point where I would like, go
Speaker 1: keep up sure as best I could. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of that does have to do with Alfred Molina,
Speaker 1: to be honest, obviously, because now that I'm saying I've
Speaker 1: kept up with Spider Man, I haven't seen the new
Speaker 1: ones and I didn't see the Andrew Garfield ones, So
Speaker 1: I guess I really am just.
Speaker 3: Really just a big from Molina as dot com.
Speaker 1: I did like the Sam Raimi trilogy, and I don't
Speaker 1: know why I didn't keep going with Spider Man. But
Speaker 1: there was a while, like in middle school, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm into Spider Man.
Speaker 3: Well the amazing Spider Man's with Andrew Grefield.
Speaker 1: Are they suck? Right? Yeah?
Speaker 3: But then the new reboot that's part of the mculove. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I really enjoyed the first one.
Speaker 1: Okay, people, I mean I hear new Spider Man rules,
Speaker 1: I just haven't seen it yet. But this was like,
Speaker 1: I mean, this is like right up, Maley. I love
Speaker 1: I love cartoons, I love experimental cartoons. I love Phil Lord.
Speaker 4: I have a huge crush on Phil Lord.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I was. I just saw it. I really
Speaker 1: like it and I'm excited to talk about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah the Lord is is he hot?
Speaker 1: Oh? Let me get you a visual. Sorry, Smiek Moore
Speaker 1: is also hot. But there's a lot of hot people
Speaker 1: involved in this movie. Actually it's uh, it's actually a
Speaker 1: little bit of setting. Okay, why can't Okay, not to
Speaker 1: dump on Christopher Miller, but that's not who I'm trying
Speaker 1: to look at.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know what they look like.
Speaker 1: He's hot. He's a bit like he's hot, like they're
Speaker 1: there were getting a lot of subpar comic con pictures.
Speaker 1: He's hot.
Speaker 3: Okay, the thing is, yeah, he's hot.
Speaker 1: He's hot.
Speaker 3: Okay, you know, good for him.
Speaker 4: But let's talk about the movie.
Speaker 3: Yeah, love it, Love it so much. There's so much
Speaker 3: to love about it. The animation style is so it's incredible. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the I mean, the story, the characters, the soundtrack is awesome.
Speaker 1: It's funny.
Speaker 3: It's funny. The movie does a really good job of
Speaker 3: balancing like heavy emotional beats with like humor.
Speaker 1: There was one twist I legitimately did not see coming.
Speaker 3: Was it the uncle?
Speaker 1: Yes, I didn't see that coming.
Speaker 3: I didn't either.
Speaker 1: This is like, these movies are hard to at this
Speaker 1: point because there's five hundred million superhero movies.
Speaker 4: It's hard to.
Speaker 1: Not see something coming like that was. I was very
Speaker 1: pleasantly surprised, and then like really sad I knew like
Speaker 1: once he comes out, You're like, oh no, he's gonna
Speaker 1: die cool.
Speaker 4: And then I cried.
Speaker 3: I cried like during three different parts of this movie.
Speaker 3: When I first saw by myself on Thursday night of
Speaker 3: opening weekend, and then oh the other the doc Ock reveal.
Speaker 3: I didn't see coming the.
Speaker 1: Doc Ock reveal. I think I did, but only because
Speaker 1: you told me about it. I knew that doc docs
Speaker 1: so womn. I knew that doc Cock was a woman. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then it was like, well, this is the only
Speaker 1: woman in Stem we've seen so far. So yeah, oh
Speaker 1: I like the reveal that Aunt May is a woman
Speaker 1: in Stem in this one. You're just like, yeah, sure, right,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of this movie where that in a
Speaker 1: very pleasant way. I was like, yeah, of course, sure,
Speaker 1: I'm Cage is in it, Sure, I'm I'm with this whatever.
Speaker 1: It's so fun and yeah, and you never see a
Speaker 1: movie this diverse in the normal MCU or really in
Speaker 1: any movie at all. Right, So I'm like really glad
Speaker 1: that this was this movie rated PG, yeah, PG. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I mean it's like that's the perfect like audience
Speaker 1: for this movie and like the audience that both wants
Speaker 1: to and needs to see like a cast this diverse
Speaker 1: and funny and cool. So I'm I'm super psyched that
Speaker 1: like a ton of people got to see it and
Speaker 1: it was really successful. It like won all the awards,
Speaker 1: it was financially successful, and Amy Pascal produced it. Love
Speaker 1: her emails every time we bring it up. Every time
Speaker 1: Pascal's in the ring, we got to bring up hashtag
Speaker 1: her email. Sure if you haven't read Amy Pascal's emails, boy,
Speaker 1: oh boy, she is not a fan of Angelina Jolie.
Speaker 3: Oh I haven't. I guess I haven't read them.
Speaker 1: Oh she was like the Sony email hack that was.
Speaker 3: I remember that, but I don't know the content of them.
Speaker 3: I guess she.
Speaker 1: Really said some funny, mean things about Angelina Jolie. Anyways,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the movie.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So the recap is we are introduced to
Speaker 3: Spider Man. He's given a voice over. He's like, look
Speaker 3: at me, here's my comic book. I'm the only Spider
Speaker 3: Man around and I'm cool and I love being Spider
Speaker 3: Man on his.
Speaker 1: Son And that's okay. First of all, you knew you
Speaker 1: saw I was triggered by blonde spider Man or any
Speaker 1: blonde adult male. Sure, and he's the first spider Man
Speaker 1: is voiced by one of the Chris.
Speaker 3: Is Chris Pine?
Speaker 4: What is he?
Speaker 1: And the other ones?
Speaker 3: He's He's Marvel.
Speaker 1: He's the only one. He's the only Chris. He's in DC,
Speaker 1: He's in one of them.
Speaker 3: Don't do that.
Speaker 1: He just Bayton switched to me. I knew every actor
Speaker 1: named Chris was in one of the universe versus the Law,
Speaker 1: It's like, how can he be breaking the law? Okay?
Speaker 1: Chris Pine is Steve in Wonder Woman. Yes, got it? Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm good to contain you.
Speaker 3: I don't know why you're yelling at me on my birthday. Okay.
Speaker 1: Also, post Malone has a large he's a huge plot.
Speaker 1: This is the movie that made you a post Malone fan.
Speaker 3: That's true, It's true.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: We meet this blonde spider Man and then we meet
Speaker 3: Miles Morales. He is going to middle school, private school
Speaker 3: in Brooklyn.
Speaker 1: He likes art, he likes post Malone, loves post Malone.
Speaker 3: He doesn't know the words to the song. He chats
Speaker 3: with this girl in his science class whose name is
Speaker 3: she calls it herself Gwanda. I don't quite know why
Speaker 3: that happens. I don't know why she doesn't just say
Speaker 3: my name is Gwen, because he wouldn't know who Spider
Speaker 3: Gwen is.
Speaker 1: Well, but there are Spider Man comics in his universe,
Speaker 1: so maybe the character Gwen Stacy exists does maybe, But
Speaker 1: also it's like if you if I meet someone named Gwen,
Speaker 1: I'm not like, you're a fictional character like that. Maybe
Speaker 1: she seems like maybe she's not giving him enough credits.
Speaker 3: Right, I guess that all those comics do because we
Speaker 3: see imagery of the He reads them and he has.
Speaker 1: Them, so I'm assuming that he like would know who
Speaker 1: Gwen Stacey was, But why would he think that anyone
Speaker 1: named Gwen was just automatically? So I think she's really
Speaker 1: underestimating his intelligence.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I guess that clears that up. Okay, So
Speaker 3: he talks to her. He goes to his uncle's apartment.
Speaker 3: They go into like an abandoned subway line.
Speaker 1: Right, And he's got a cool uncle. And you can
Speaker 1: tell he's cool because he he's not in a committed
Speaker 1: relationship and he has a punch bag and his studio apartments.
Speaker 1: I love how cool aunts and uncles are like just
Speaker 1: visually established in movies. It is always if any of
Speaker 1: our listeners have any good examples of like cool aunts
Speaker 1: and uncles and their sweet apartments, it's it's basically always
Speaker 1: their apartment. Right, We're just like, oh, this person answers
Speaker 1: to no one. They've got framed posters like cool on uncle.
Speaker 3: Shit, Yeah right, okay, so cool uncle, cool bachelor uncle.
Speaker 3: They go into this abandoned Someway line area and paint
Speaker 3: some graffiti, and this is where Miles gets bitten by
Speaker 3: this crazy looking spider.
Speaker 1: Yeah, cute spider. It's very cute spider forty two right,
Speaker 1: Like it's a label. I'm sure that's a reference to something,
Speaker 1: and I don't know. I have no idea what it is.
Speaker 3: So he gets bitten by this spider, and then the
Speaker 3: next day he wakes up, he feels kind of weird.
Speaker 3: He's like, did I go through puberty? My pants don't
Speaker 3: fit a lot?
Speaker 1: And you've seen it in five different movies. He's Spider Man,
Speaker 1: but he's confused.
Speaker 3: He doesn't know it yet.
Speaker 1: The webs are come. But you can't say that ever
Speaker 1: in the movies except in the James Cameron's Oh God,
Speaker 1: the iconic James Cameron script when he explicitly says it's
Speaker 1: come yeah, if.
Speaker 3: Only, and then he bumps into Gwanda or Wanda whatever.
Speaker 3: He thinks her name is from Class Why by Hailey Steinfeldt,
Speaker 3: and he gets his hand stuck in her hair and
Speaker 3: he's like, what the what am I Spider Man or what?
Speaker 3: And then he goes to investigate what's going on, goes
Speaker 3: back to the old subway, sees the Spider and he's like,
Speaker 3: wait a minute, this is not normal. And then while
Speaker 3: he's there, he discovers actual Spider Man. He's fighting the
Speaker 3: Green Goblin.
Speaker 1: The Green Goblin is not William H. Macy in correct world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a literal gobliny giant goble.
Speaker 1: Kind of just like a robody kind of guy, right,
Speaker 1: Like he looks like a robot.
Speaker 3: Well he's not the robot. He's like just this like
Speaker 3: giant reptilian monster with like a tongue that he's more.
Speaker 1: Like abstract, I mean, he's like more like an actual monster, yeah,
Speaker 1: than like a man, right, just dressed up like a monster.
Speaker 3: Yes, and then Miles and Spiderman cross paths and Spider
Speaker 3: Man's spider sense goes off. He's like, wait a minute,
Speaker 3: you're like me, I can show you the ropes on
Speaker 3: how to be Spider Man. Let me just go destroy
Speaker 3: this big collider machine first and defeat this bad guy
Speaker 3: named Fisk. Hell yeah, but then before all that can happen,
Speaker 3: Fisk powers up the super collider that opens up all
Speaker 3: these Yeah, no explanation needed.
Speaker 1: But oh it's Willem Dafoe. What the fuck am I talking? Sorry?
Speaker 3: What did you say, William?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: I didn't even catch that.
Speaker 1: I can use Willem Dafoe, William age Macy and Steve
Speaker 1: BUSHEMI constant.
Speaker 3: I mean they all are like character actors who like.
Speaker 1: They audition for the same parts a lot.
Speaker 3: Probably William H. Macy though, is like he's got like
Speaker 3: a kind face. And then Willem Dafoe, it always usually
Speaker 3: plays a villain because he's got like a a more
Speaker 3: sinister look.
Speaker 1: About willmhe Macy in trouble because of that whole college admission.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean his wife, his wife. I don't
Speaker 3: know how complicit he is in it.
Speaker 1: Well, I guess it depends on Actually it's kind of
Speaker 1: a loose less because if he's not involved.
Speaker 4: That just means he's not very involved in this children's lives.
Speaker 1: So he's a bad father. Maybe he won't go to jail.
Speaker 3: Sucks how the world works, oh wild. Anyways, so Fisk
Speaker 3: powers up the collider, which opens up all these different
Speaker 3: alternate dimensions, and then Fisk kills Spider Man. No, and
Speaker 3: then the bad guys spot Miles, who was like lurking nearby,
Speaker 3: and he has to make a run for it. And
Speaker 3: then one of the bad guys, whose name is I
Speaker 3: think Prowler, goes after Miles, but he manages to escape
Speaker 3: and he's like, okay, fuck, Like, I have to be
Speaker 3: Spider Man. The other Spider Man is dead, like everyone's
Speaker 3: counting on me. I have to assume this role. But
Speaker 3: he doesn't know how to do it. He's complicated jumping
Speaker 3: off of buildings, he breaks the thumb drive that the
Speaker 3: other Spider Man had given him, and he's like, I
Speaker 3: don't know if I can do this. But just then
Speaker 3: another Peter Parker shows up.
Speaker 4: What I know?
Speaker 1: This one is Jake Johnson.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and he is the amazing Spider Man ever
Speaker 3: heard of him? He right, so he's from this alternate dimension.
Speaker 3: He is older, his life is in shambles. He's divorced,
Speaker 3: he's got a dad bod and we love that for him. Yeah,
Speaker 3: we do.
Speaker 4: Now this.
Speaker 3: Peter Parker is reluctant to get involved, but he eventually
Speaker 3: agrees to team up with Miles, and then they go
Speaker 3: to alkam X, which is like the science lab that
Speaker 3: is responsible for creating the collider.
Speaker 1: And they need to go there.
Speaker 3: They have to download like the schematics or something so
Speaker 3: that they can destroy the collider. And then that's where
Speaker 3: we meet doc oc aka doctor Olivia Octavius, not Alfred Molina,
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 1: But hell, we've gotta we gotta get him in the MCU.
Speaker 1: There's a place for him there. Sure, it breaks my
Speaker 1: heart that he's not canon.
Speaker 3: I know, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: I truly anyone else in the Raimi Spider Man movies
Speaker 1: don't care, don't need you there. Yeah, but if anyone
Speaker 1: has the gentle heart of Alfred Molinas doc ok rehearsing
Speaker 1: for Filler on the roof, I mean, I swear to god,
Speaker 1: did you see that video?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 3: Right, everyone tagged us in it is if you weren't
Speaker 3: the person who brought that up on that episode, Oh,
Speaker 3: I know, we're just like hello, oh god, it was
Speaker 3: a blank check.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and you know people just like, don't listen
Speaker 1: to me anyways.
Speaker 4: Lets it's not.
Speaker 3: Your birthday, it's why Okay. So they have downloaded this
Speaker 3: stuff from alchem X and dot coc is there, and
Speaker 3: also the person who's there is Gwen, who we learned
Speaker 3: what her actual name is, and she's another Spider person,
Speaker 3: yet another alternate universe.
Speaker 1: It's so complicated, you know, And so they team up
Speaker 1: with her.
Speaker 3: And this is where I stopped writing down what happens.
Speaker 3: So now I'm just going from memory.
Speaker 1: Baby, I mean, you've seen it nine hundred times.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definite help, I'll help. Okay. Great. So then
Speaker 3: they go to Aunt May's house.
Speaker 1: And May's Lily Tomlin.
Speaker 3: M hmmm.
Speaker 1: So that's great. Yeah, love that.
Speaker 3: I love that. Her nephew, Peter Parker is the one
Speaker 3: who had just died. So they're like, hey, this is weird.
Speaker 3: Our condolences also were from alternate universes. Can you help
Speaker 3: us out? So they go into like the Spider Shed
Speaker 3: and she's like, hey, meet these other Spider people. And
Speaker 3: this is when we meet Spider Noir, Spider Ham, and
Speaker 3: Penny Parker, who I don't know what her If she
Speaker 3: has like a spider name, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think she might just be like a let me check,
Speaker 1: let me check, I'll research cool.
Speaker 3: So we meet those Spider folk and they're great.
Speaker 1: They're all animated in different styles. This movie's so cool.
Speaker 1: It's really exciting.
Speaker 3: And then they're all kind of figuring out, Okay, we
Speaker 3: need to stop Fisk and his collider, but we need to.
Speaker 1: Get the big square guy. He's played by Leave Schreiber,
Speaker 1: got it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So they're trying to figure out, Okay, someone needs
Speaker 3: to stay behind and turn off the collider after we've
Speaker 3: gotten everyone to their respective alternate universe, and Miles is like, well,
Speaker 3: I should be the one to do it, because this
Speaker 3: is my dimension. I'm already here. I'll be the one
Speaker 3: to stay behind. But he's not good at being Spider
Speaker 3: Man yet, so they're like, we don't really trust you
Speaker 3: to do this, right.
Speaker 1: Oh, she played Penny Parker slash sp Dash dash dr.
Speaker 3: Oh is that the name of her robot?
Speaker 1: I guess, like the robot that's an extension of her. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: spdr got it.
Speaker 3: So Miles is like, fuck, I'm not a good Spider
Speaker 3: Man yet and he leaves and broods a little bit.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's a teen. That's the best part about
Speaker 1: Spider Man is he's moody.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then and I think it's around this time
Speaker 3: that he discovers that his uncle is actually the Prowler of.
Speaker 1: The Yeah, I was not aware of the character the
Speaker 1: Prowler before this me either.
Speaker 3: I don't think he's introduced in any of the other
Speaker 3: Spider Man movies.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Spider Verse. Didn't know who Prowler was, and
Speaker 4: you know, I guess.
Speaker 3: I mean now, yeah, oh yeah. Before that, there's a
Speaker 3: big fight in Aunt May's house where the bad guys
Speaker 3: are trying to get the thumb Drive back.
Speaker 1: Aunt May is also not the helpless aunt that she
Speaker 1: is an earlier incarnations with Spider Man. She is keeping
Speaker 1: the Spike because in the world that Aunt May is
Speaker 1: and in Miles's world, Peter Parker is dead and she's
Speaker 1: mourning him. But she also has this Spider Bunker where
Speaker 1: she does fucking science shit and it's great.
Speaker 3: It's great. Yes, I loved that. So yeah, they the
Speaker 3: bad guys come, they fail in getting the thumb drive back,
Speaker 3: and then Prowler dies because.
Speaker 1: Really sad sad.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 1: It reminded me of the Lion King oh with the
Speaker 1: mufassa yeah, or the kids just like I'm sorry, emotional
Speaker 1: and then the dying adult is like, it's all good,
Speaker 1: You're awesome and then dies.
Speaker 3: And then Miles Morales goes and finds Timon and Poopa right.
Speaker 1: And then he grows. He comes of h with that
Speaker 1: crazy that Nathan Lane. Nathan Lane. As much as I
Speaker 1: love John mulaney, John Laney is basically doing an impression
Speaker 1: of Nathan Lane for this character. Yeah, I think I
Speaker 1: think he sounds super nice. I mean he kind of
Speaker 1: naturally kind of sounds like Nathan Lane too. Sure, I
Speaker 1: think for this character especially, I'm like, oh, he's good.
Speaker 1: There's some some serious Tomon vibes ironically coming out of
Speaker 1: this pig character commentary.
Speaker 3: Because wait, timoone is the mirrorca Meerkat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, John and mullaney or he's a I'm gonna
Speaker 1: read a five thousand word piece on Medium about like
Speaker 1: the brilliant subtlety of John Mulaney's performance. That's Spider him.
Speaker 3: The world needs it. Okay, So then story what happens
Speaker 3: in the story after this? So the uncle has died,
Speaker 3: and then Myles is sad about it. There's like this
Speaker 3: emotionally heavy moment between him and his dad. Ohever there's
Speaker 3: a wall between them. And then the Spider people come
Speaker 3: back and they're like, hey, okay, we're gonna go do
Speaker 3: this thing because again you're not a good Spider Man
Speaker 3: and now.
Speaker 1: You're like an emotional wreck right too. And there's that
Speaker 1: great scene where he's like, you don't get it, and
Speaker 1: they're like they all list the critical person in their
Speaker 1: life they've lost, because that's the story, right, And then
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, kiss you get it? There stand and
Speaker 1: then they travelm in webs and then.
Speaker 3: The monologue that his dad gives sort of empowers him
Speaker 3: to be the great man he's destined to become.
Speaker 1: The power of the love between father and son frees
Speaker 1: him from the com webs and he goes and he
Speaker 1: saves the day.
Speaker 3: Yep. So he goes back to Aunt May and he's like,
Speaker 3: I'm ready to be Spider Man. She's like, great, here's
Speaker 3: a suit, here's some tools.
Speaker 1: He's still a scientist. She basically is like the what's
Speaker 1: that lady who's Edna in The Incredibles, except not annoying
Speaker 1: because she's just like, oh right, she's because Edna is
Speaker 1: a woman in stem but they try to make her
Speaker 1: just seem like she's a costume designer. That's right.
Speaker 3: And she's also a voice by Brad Bird.
Speaker 1: So that wild. What a time to be alive? Can
Speaker 1: I can I do a little industry inside her talk?
Speaker 3: Please?
Speaker 1: Okay? So I was at the ANNIE.
Speaker 4: Awards this year where spider where Spider Verse one fucking.
Speaker 3: Every Aniwards are animated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the animated Oscars. It's very boring, but
Speaker 1: I was excited and uh so Spider Verse like completely
Speaker 1: swept and like won every feature category. And Brad Bird
Speaker 1: was there because I think he assumed that Incredibles two
Speaker 1: is gonna sweep. Oh sure, and he looked really pissed,
Speaker 1: where I'm like, it's just the Annie's Like, it's not
Speaker 1: a big deal. But he lost and he.
Speaker 3: Worked hard for it. But I lost.
Speaker 1: But why we should have talked?
Speaker 3: Yeah, what were you there for?
Speaker 1: I was nominated for a show I worked on.
Speaker 3: Hey what shows it to people? Everyone?
Speaker 1: Uh log onto Facebook dot com and launch a show
Speaker 1: called human kind of It was. It was a great
Speaker 1: series and it almost wanted Annie and then it was
Speaker 1: canceled because life is unfair. But I think, you know,
Speaker 1: I can relate with Brad Bird and a lot of
Speaker 1: we're basically the same person.
Speaker 3: Didn't you also see Alfred Molina there.
Speaker 1: I did see Alfurd Leina there and I was too
Speaker 1: great to talk to him. That is really exciting this.
Speaker 3: You had met him?
Speaker 1: Yeah, after he was on our podcast, literally two weeks later.
Speaker 1: I was too scared and he I got another message
Speaker 1: from him, not like a direct message. No, he went
Speaker 1: in to record the robot chicken sketch that I wrote
Speaker 1: for him last week, and they were like, guess who
Speaker 1: wrote this? And he was like, oh my gosh, she's
Speaker 1: all over the place.
Speaker 3: She starting to She's really closing in, isn't she?
Speaker 1: Anyways?
Speaker 3: All right, so what happens in the movie though I
Speaker 3: don't know?
Speaker 4: Okay, So so he escapes because the power of love.
Speaker 3: He goes to aunt Ray, he gets his web shooters
Speaker 3: and then he's ready to go and be a part
Speaker 3: of the fight. He meets up with them in like
Speaker 3: the it's basically Trump Tower Vortex. Yes, so there's like
Speaker 3: this benefit going on. Fisk is Trump. He's got the
Speaker 3: tower to prove it. And everything, and below that is
Speaker 3: where the collider is colliding. And then you know, the
Speaker 3: Spider gang is fighting doc Oc and the other bad guys,
Speaker 3: and then Miles shows up and he's like I'm ready,
Speaker 3: I'm here, let me help, and they're like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: you're doing such a good job. And then the Spider
Speaker 3: people return to their respective dimensions, and so it's up
Speaker 3: to Miles and shut off the collider, and he does
Speaker 3: do it, and then and then his dad is there,
Speaker 3: who had, you know, feelings of animosity toward the idea
Speaker 3: of Spider Man, but he's like, wait a minute, Spider
Speaker 3: Man is actually a good guy who wants to do
Speaker 3: good things right, And.
Speaker 1: Then they're the one thing that was just like where
Speaker 1: when Miles finally calls his dad and they very quickly
Speaker 1: brush over his uncle's death, right, The dad is like, hey,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this, but something with
Speaker 1: your uncle, and then Miles is like, I know, and
Speaker 1: he was like, okay, why are you coming home? Like
Speaker 1: maybe that is how men process dead. I don't know,
Speaker 1: it seemed pretty chill to me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was, it was. And then Miles fully embraces
Speaker 3: his new identity as Spider man and that is the
Speaker 3: end of the movie.
Speaker 1: So it's such a good movie.
Speaker 3: I love it so much.
Speaker 1: I really really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break and we will come back
Speaker 3: for the discussion. And we're back where to begin with
Speaker 3: the discussion.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting. I mean, if we're just starting
Speaker 1: off from I mean, we've already established it's like it's
Speaker 1: the most diverse inclusive superhero movie I've ever seen.
Speaker 3: I mean, probably aside from Black Panther.
Speaker 1: But beside from Black Panther, I mean, but in terms
Speaker 1: of seeing like and this is like a no accortisms
Speaker 1: of Black Panther, but you're seeing all types of people
Speaker 1: in Spider Verse where I feel like it's the only
Speaker 1: like the thing that hit for me is like, this
Speaker 1: is the only semi realistic portrayal of like the makeup
Speaker 1: of New York City, oh, that I've ever seen in
Speaker 1: a movie, and it's a cartoon like the all white
Speaker 1: portrayals of New York City that we've come across in
Speaker 1: every rom com we've ever covered, and other movies, like
Speaker 1: in action movies too, but just the all white New
Speaker 1: York that never existed that is so persistent in movies
Speaker 1: because of systemic racism. But it was really cool to
Speaker 1: see such a like a diverse cast where you have
Speaker 1: like a lot of people of color. Do we don't?
Speaker 1: I guess there's a pig.
Speaker 5: Do you?
Speaker 3: Are there any queer characters in this not identifiably so
Speaker 3: or even I think coded that way. So it's it's
Speaker 3: a pretty but then there's no real sexuality at all
Speaker 3: to speak of.
Speaker 1: I mean it's not. I mean, there is a little
Speaker 1: bit of a love story, and I want to get
Speaker 1: into that, right, but I have a few Gwen thoughts,
Speaker 1: But in general like it. It is so cool to
Speaker 1: see New York look actually represent or.
Speaker 3: Miles has his mom's last name. His name is not
Speaker 3: Miles Jefferson, it's Miles Morales.
Speaker 1: And we know what hit like, we know what both
Speaker 1: of his parents do. We know a lot about his
Speaker 1: home life, and you know when even when people of
Speaker 1: color are the main character, you don't often get to
Speaker 1: see their home life. When I'm thinking of fucking the
Speaker 1: craft sure where the only black woman in the cast
Speaker 1: is the only character you find out nothing about. And
Speaker 1: it's also cool to see like a working class family
Speaker 1: portrayed on screen, because that doesn't you know, It's like
Speaker 1: there's all these really famous and sometimes even good kids
Speaker 1: movies about vaguely wealthy white kids that live in gigantic
Speaker 1: houses and have never had a problem and then they
Speaker 1: get magical powers. You're just like, okay, but I mean,
Speaker 1: his mom is a nurse, his dad is a cop.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and dad's name is Jefferson Davis, which is the
Speaker 3: same name of the only president of the Confederate States
Speaker 3: during the Civil War, which a lot of people have
Speaker 3: pointed out. They're like, that's weird, but that is his
Speaker 3: character's name.
Speaker 1: That can't have been an accident, And I'm very confused. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I didn't hear his full name set out lot.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that he had his mom's last name.
Speaker 1: What a strange thing. But I mean his parents are together, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess we don't know if they're married. Do we
Speaker 1: know that they're married.
Speaker 3: I don't know if we know. Yeah, they might just
Speaker 3: be partnered. But yeah, either way, Miles has his mom's
Speaker 3: last name. She is LATINX And we see them speaking
Speaker 3: Spanish together, Like it's rare that we see Spanish spoken
Speaker 3: by a main character. Yeah, and in any movie really,
Speaker 3: unless it's like a Spanish language film and not have
Speaker 3: it like be.
Speaker 4: Super called attention to like it's yeah or landscape right
Speaker 4: or like yeah, othered in some way where it's like Oka,
Speaker 4: the others are speaking Spanish but we hear in America
Speaker 4: speak English kind of thing, so like yeah, it was
Speaker 4: like very normalized and very cool, which.
Speaker 3: Again is New York exactly.
Speaker 1: Like there's so like there are so many which which
Speaker 1: is why it's like, you know, Miles Morales, the character
Speaker 1: is such a cool thing for visibility because there's so
Speaker 1: many kids like him and just who you know, the
Speaker 1: world has never taken the time to portray in a
Speaker 1: way that isn't patronizing or half baked or shitty. So
Speaker 1: I mean, I love this families set up. I mean
Speaker 1: there's always gonna be a weird feeling. I feel like
Speaker 1: at this cultural.
Speaker 4: Moment of being like, I guess we like cops in
Speaker 4: this movie, but that is that is how the story goes.
Speaker 1: I feel like that is also kind of like baked
Speaker 1: into superhero lore as well in a way that's kind
Speaker 1: of hard to escape or hasn't really been addressed. And
Speaker 1: this is coming from someone who doesn't know the deep
Speaker 1: history of superheroes. But like superheroes, I feel like.
Speaker 4: Are generally portrayed to be like allies to cops.
Speaker 3: I think so some superhero movies just sort of ignore
Speaker 3: the like law enforcement exists at all.
Speaker 1: The other one that it seems stupid, and then superheros
Speaker 1: are smart.
Speaker 3: The other main series that integrates police to a large
Speaker 3: extent that I'm familiar with is Batman, and the cops
Speaker 3: in that one are always like he's a Gilante and
Speaker 3: I don't like it, and then there's always like Commissioner Gordon,
Speaker 3: who's like his one ally, and then all the other ones.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of like good cops in across
Speaker 1: superhero narratives, but it does sort of go the same
Speaker 1: way where the end scene, even though there's like another
Speaker 1: level to it because it's literally a father and son talking,
Speaker 1: but it is like Spider Man is an ally of
Speaker 1: the NYPD. Okay, but that I mean he's kind of
Speaker 1: like that in all the iterations of Spider Man. I
Speaker 1: feel like in the Sam Raimi ones, the cops are
Speaker 1: made out to look kind of just like less competent
Speaker 1: than Spider Man and like jealous of him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right. It's been a while since
Speaker 3: I've seen any of those ones, but yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1: Anyways, someone link us to what I'm sure is a
Speaker 1: very well written essay about how the MCU superheroes relate
Speaker 1: to the cops. But again, it's like seeing a working
Speaker 1: class family from New York portrayed on screen in a
Speaker 1: way that is really realistic, Like their apartment is realistic,
Speaker 1: versus like the wide open spaces, Oh.
Speaker 3: My god, like the millions bazillion dollars like soho lofts.
Speaker 1: That you see and like all these or like I'm
Speaker 1: thinking of like this, like Carrie from Sex and the
Speaker 1: City would literally be starving to death if that remained realistic,
Speaker 1: Like she writes one column a week, right, like you
Speaker 1: can't afford to live hunt like you can't. You're waiting
Speaker 1: forty five days for your freelancers check to come in. Anyways,
Speaker 1: love the setup and the visibility in terms of like
Speaker 1: race and class.
Speaker 3: Especially because like Miles is like he's basically a socialist,
Speaker 3: where he's like, I don't want to go to this school.
Speaker 3: It's elitist, Like I want to go to my public school.
Speaker 1: Well, what it's referencing it is like the real setup
Speaker 1: of New York public schools that is like very it's
Speaker 1: the way public schools work in New York is weird.
Speaker 1: Where there was like an intensely reported story of it.
Speaker 1: They came out a couple of weeks ago that basically
Speaker 1: there are these like magnet schools that are publicly funded
Speaker 1: but are kind of like elitist that it looks like
Speaker 1: the school that Miles gets transferred to is based on
Speaker 1: and the way that you get entry into one of
Speaker 1: those like public plus schools is by taking a test,
Speaker 1: and the dad references like you've tested in. So people
Speaker 1: take the test and then they're put into a lottery
Speaker 1: because there's only so much space. But there's still a
Speaker 1: lot of systemic racism in the way those schools are sorted,
Speaker 1: and like all these magnet schools are supposed to be
Speaker 1: this big public win for public education, and there's almost
Speaker 1: no black and Latino kids who get out of the lottery,
Speaker 1: as it were fucked. So that scene I was just like, oh, woll,
Speaker 1: like someone did their homework on New York public schools.
Speaker 3: Because he's walking by his old middle school, which seems
Speaker 3: very diverse. Yeah, and then you see the scene where
Speaker 3: he's you know, entering this magnet.
Speaker 6: Esque school and it's fancy predominantly and it's white, and
Speaker 6: it's yeah, like there's I believe it was a New
Speaker 6: York Times story that came out by the time you
Speaker 6: hear this will come out about a month ago.
Speaker 1: But it's a fascinating look at how like these public
Speaker 1: systems are established to be for the greater good and
Speaker 1: yet are still so very racist and not inclusive at all.
Speaker 3: Any other thing you want to say about that in
Speaker 3: terms of like diversity inclusion.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I mean I think that that is like
Speaker 1: this move in addition to just being a good movie,
Speaker 1: like that's this movie is like great strength and distinction
Speaker 1: from the landscape it comes out, And I mean it's
Speaker 1: really this movie and Black Panther that you get any
Speaker 1: level of diversity that isn't extremely tokenized.
Speaker 3: Definitely. Yeah, yes, huge strength for the movie. Let's talk
Speaker 3: about the women.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about we mean it takes a while for
Speaker 1: this movie to include women in the plot in a
Speaker 1: meaningful way. I thought, yes, because I think for the
Speaker 1: first half, unless I'm missing something, you meet a mom,
Speaker 1: you meet someone that is introduced to us as a
Speaker 1: love interest, because that's originally how Gwen Stacy's introduced in
Speaker 1: all of these stories. Yes, and eventually, I feel like
Speaker 1: it's not until you get to Olivia Octavius that women
Speaker 1: become a structural part of the plot. Agree, And it
Speaker 1: takes a while for us to get there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, at least a half hour, if not more. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I completely agree. Up until then, it's just you know,
Speaker 3: scenes with you know, him and aid Man dead or yeah,
Speaker 3: him in acting with the Spider Man running away from
Speaker 3: the bad guys.
Speaker 1: And I do think that it's and I don't want
Speaker 1: to be too critical of this movie because I like,
Speaker 1: I really love it, and I'm excited to talk about
Speaker 1: the relationships between men that I thought were really cool
Speaker 1: in this thing. But it does it, you know, you
Speaker 1: do kind of notice and it sort of betrays the
Speaker 1: fact that this was written by men and directed by men,
Speaker 1: and Amy was directed by Amy Pascal's emails of course,
Speaker 1: she never her emails never get credit for They're sentient
Speaker 1: and Incredibles from twenty thirteen directed so many movies. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, the main focus, even within the family is
Speaker 1: there's a lot of screen time devoted to Miles' relationship
Speaker 1: with his dad. There's a lot of screen time devoted
Speaker 1: to Miles's relationship with his uncle. There's really not that
Speaker 1: much of Miles and his mom where we know what
Speaker 1: she does, which is more than most movies give us,
Speaker 1: but there's that's not where the emphasis is and the
Speaker 1: family dynamic.
Speaker 3: The only thing we really see is a scene where
Speaker 3: like she's doting on him right before he's about to
Speaker 3: leave for school. That's really about it. Yeah, there's so
Speaker 3: much like.
Speaker 1: Per see the long scene with Miles and his dad. Yes,
Speaker 1: and yeah, so that like that scene in a movie
Speaker 1: with a lot of strengths.
Speaker 3: You're like, man, I mean I've given this a bit
Speaker 3: of thought. And on one hand, I'm like, yeah, why
Speaker 3: couldn't we see a more significant and like more emotional
Speaker 3: impactful storyline between him and his mom? And it's only
Speaker 3: really given to him and his dad and then also
Speaker 3: him and his uncle, which you know means that less
Speaker 3: time and attention is devoted to the mum character. But also,
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, he's a uh I know, I
Speaker 3: don't want to like sound like I'm defending you know,
Speaker 3: the absence of women in a story. And I've never
Speaker 3: been a thirteen year old old boy, so I don't
Speaker 3: really know but I think it kind of stands to
Speaker 3: reason that like a boy of that age is going
Speaker 3: to look up to the male figures in his life
Speaker 3: and you know, try to learn from them, you know,
Speaker 3: learn how to be a man and all this stuff,
Speaker 3: which can be problematic. But the fact that at least
Speaker 3: his dad is a very supportive figure in his life.
Speaker 1: I just think that there's and I guess this is
Speaker 1: I mean, for everyone who's gonna I mean, this is
Speaker 1: a major an episode, so we can actually be more
Speaker 1: critical without being afraid of people. But I mean, there's
Speaker 1: a version of this script where instead of creating this
Speaker 1: uncle figure to become you know, who is like this
Speaker 1: positive influence in his life and teaches him the lighter
Speaker 1: side of life and how to have fun, and that
Speaker 1: you know, his dad is you know, the sort of
Speaker 1: rigidity of his dad, isn't the only way to live
Speaker 1: could be played by his mom instead of like creating
Speaker 1: another male character to fill that void. But that said,
Speaker 1: I mean or an aunt or not right right, Like
Speaker 1: it's I don't think that those nests. But but then
Speaker 1: I don't really know because because one of the things
Speaker 1: I do like about this movie is it allows male
Speaker 1: characters to be vulnerable with other male characters in a
Speaker 1: way that seems pretty healthy and productive. And that is
Speaker 1: something that I think young people and people in general
Speaker 1: should see where there's like such a strong like it's
Speaker 1: like part of the core relationship of Miles and his
Speaker 1: dad that his dad is like I love you, say
Speaker 1: it back, like, which you don't see between fathers and
Speaker 1: sons a lot in movies because there's, you know, that
Speaker 1: cultural sticky thing that we can't seem to get rid of.
Speaker 1: His come webs. There's this cultural com web that like
Speaker 1: men can't express their emotions to each other, right, and
Speaker 1: that there is something wrong for Amanda ta another man
Speaker 1: that they love each other. I feel like there's so
Speaker 1: many examples of me growing up where my male cousins,
Speaker 1: my male friends when they were talking to other boys,
Speaker 1: they would couch everything really nervously and no homo and
Speaker 1: they would write like where they would just like there's
Speaker 1: that association that any guy expressing affection or emotion at
Speaker 1: all to any other guy that isn't like anger or
Speaker 1: making fun of women was inherently sexual.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this movie we're just like a sign of
Speaker 3: weakness kind.
Speaker 1: Of yeah, totally, And so in that way, like Miles
Speaker 1: and his relationship with the adult men in his life
Speaker 1: is good and is good to see because you see Miles,
Speaker 1: you know, tell his daddy loves him, and watch that
Speaker 1: relationship change over time, and you see the closeness of
Speaker 1: the uncle and the nephew that is like, I just
Speaker 1: wish that we got more of the mom.
Speaker 3: I don't know, Yeah, I think maybe a better version
Speaker 3: of this is if Uncle Aaron was actually Aunt Aaron
Speaker 3: aunt erin you are, and then she and Miles's dad
Speaker 3: are brother and sister, the same twist can happen. And
Speaker 3: we know that women can be villains in this world
Speaker 3: because we see Doc Uk.
Speaker 1: Well maybe that's too many female villains that well, but
Speaker 1: then we have female.
Speaker 3: Super exactly so it kind of balances out. And then
Speaker 3: if we have a stronger relationship between or just a
Speaker 3: little bit more screen time devoted to Miles's mom, then
Speaker 3: we get the balance of like, oh, like there's and
Speaker 3: that's not just all the women in his family are evil.
Speaker 3: He's got a very caring and supportive mother.
Speaker 1: And that could be accomplished in a scene like we
Speaker 1: just had one scene that was just the two of
Speaker 1: them that had an impact on the plot, and wasn't
Speaker 1: just like, oh, his mom, because I feel like that's
Speaker 1: how mom characters are used a lot where even if
Speaker 1: you do get a scene with them, it rarely results
Speaker 1: in any plot. She's sort of like, well, he's loved.
Speaker 3: An easy fix could be because we get a sense
Speaker 3: of how how Miles his dad doesn't like, you know,
Speaker 3: the vigilante superhero that is Spider Man. If we see
Speaker 3: a scene where his mom is like, oh, I actually
Speaker 3: think Spider Man's cool.
Speaker 1: And well she's she's a Spider Man's stand.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what if she has like Spider Man merch and stuff? Yeah,
Speaker 3: and then does this, oh my god, the Spider verse
Speaker 3: that actually sounds like the Collider I don't know if
Speaker 3: if you listeners can hear that anyway, So that would
Speaker 3: impact the plot because a lot of his kind of
Speaker 3: internal struggle comes from his dad not liking Spider Man.
Speaker 4: He likes, Yeah, like Miles already likes Spider Man.
Speaker 1: Seems like every kid likes Spider Man. So like, what
Speaker 1: if Miles' mom likes Spider Man and that's something they
Speaker 1: could bond over or mourn over, because when he dies
Speaker 1: in the sure in Miles is there's more ways to
Speaker 1: include her, and I love I love the idea of
Speaker 1: an aunt instead of an uncle. Yeah, this stories the
Speaker 1: uncle time.
Speaker 4: Anyways, if you're listening Phil Lord Chris.
Speaker 3: Well, I was like, wait a minute, someone said I
Speaker 3: was hot. Better tune in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, please everyone at Phil Lord and let him know
Speaker 1: how I feel. Yeah, yeah, I know. I agree with you,
Speaker 1: even though I mean it's I loved. I love the
Speaker 1: family story and I love how much I love the
Speaker 1: family stuff. I wish that women had been included more
Speaker 1: meaningfully in the family stuff. Agree, that's all.
Speaker 3: I think the same could also be said for the
Speaker 3: Spider Team.
Speaker 1: I agree, Wow, I completely agree. I think how many
Speaker 1: people are in people animals are in the Spider Team
Speaker 1: total is like eight six six. Two women we've.
Speaker 3: Got Gwen Stacy and Penny Parker are the women we've got.
Speaker 3: But Spider Man, We've got Fick Spider Man not does
Speaker 3: fix Spider Yeah, Spider Noir, Spider ham Miles. Did I
Speaker 3: list all four? Just there, very distracted by you? Did
Speaker 3: this is a Collider? Did men outnumber the women.
Speaker 1: And there's only two people of color? And well, I
Speaker 1: guess we don't technically know Spider Noir or Spider Ham
Speaker 1: but they're voiced by white men. Yes, So it is
Speaker 1: like two out of six in terms of women and
Speaker 1: men and people of color to white people or at
Speaker 1: least actors.
Speaker 3: Right, And this is probably like an adaptation issue where
Speaker 3: there weren't like other comic series written with a woman
Speaker 3: as the lead because they pulled from existing characters.
Speaker 1: And I think it kind of shows and that's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know how that's avoidable because it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: Peter Parker has been a white kid or adult for
Speaker 1: a long until Miles Morales, so that like it's kind
Speaker 1: of hard to navigate around that and the same thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, And one of the problems that I had
Speaker 1: with Spider Gwen is she's presented very classically feminine and
Speaker 1: her I mean, everyone's costume is different, but hers is
Speaker 1: different in a very particular way. She has a purple,
Speaker 1: pinky streak that goes behind her and it's not that
Speaker 1: there's anything wrong with that, And it's so hard to
Speaker 1: like have this conversation in a way that doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like we're demonizing traditional femininity, Like, right, if that's your thing,
Speaker 1: who cares that's my thing?
Speaker 4: A lot of the time, but it is like the
Speaker 4: standard way that feminized characters.
Speaker 3: Put a bow on them, make them pink.
Speaker 4: And eyes right, and they're like, it's girl Spider Man.
Speaker 3: I would also argue that her fight choreography and the
Speaker 3: way she moves is ballet feminine.
Speaker 1: It looks like ballet a lot of it.
Speaker 3: And she even says at one point, like when they're
Speaker 3: all grilling Miles and they're like, can you punch a
Speaker 3: bunch of bad guys? Can you rewire a fucking main frame?
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah, Gwen asks can you fight with the
Speaker 3: grace of a skilled dancer or something like that. So
Speaker 3: she's all about, like this what appears to be like
Speaker 3: a very feminine fight style, which we've talked about another episode.
Speaker 3: I mean, it sucks, but all the same, the women
Speaker 3: who do exist within the Spider Team are just as
Speaker 3: competent of fighters as all.
Speaker 1: The men, for sure, and they're doing equal work.
Speaker 3: In equal work, Penny seems to have like a specialty
Speaker 3: relating some kind.
Speaker 1: Of computer tech girl. I'd be interested in what our
Speaker 1: Japanese American listeners thought of her portrayal, because it did
Speaker 1: seem like there were a lot of stereotypes being put into,
Speaker 1: like she comes out of this like anime like world,
Speaker 1: which I don't really know, Like I just like don't
Speaker 1: have the perspective to have a strong opinion on that,
Speaker 1: but I could understand why people would have a strong
Speaker 1: opinion about the way that, Like this is the Japanese
Speaker 1: American Spider Woman, and she's portrayed in a very particular way,
Speaker 1: just like the American Spider Woman is portrayed in a
Speaker 1: very particular way that I don't really care for.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I am similarly curious as to what listeners
Speaker 3: think about that, because I.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like, that is seems like a lazy choice.
Speaker 1: But I also am I mean, I'm sure that that
Speaker 1: is an adaptation issue as well. I'm reading in Wikipedia
Speaker 1: dot org I ever heard of it that. I guess
Speaker 1: that Penny Parker they definitely wanted an Asian American spider person.
Speaker 1: I guess they considered using another spider woman who's Korean
Speaker 1: American named silk Okay, but they decided her powers weren't
Speaker 1: as cool, and they went with Penny. Oh, it's like
Speaker 1: bring them both it and them both stopping.
Speaker 3: Yeah, again, it's an adaptation. You can make changes from
Speaker 3: the source materials.
Speaker 1: I feel strongly about Spider Gwen with that, especially like
Speaker 1: they did not it was not integral to the plot
Speaker 1: for her to look move like that, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly that said, she does save Miles and Peter
Speaker 3: Parker from doc OC. She does in the beginning, but
Speaker 3: then she needs to be saved at the end. She's
Speaker 3: like about to fall into like the collider beam and
Speaker 3: then Miles has to jump in after her and save her.
Speaker 3: So but at least it's like a parody in terms
Speaker 3: of like women not constantly being damseled.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is like it's
Speaker 1: so weird how things change slightly over time because the
Speaker 1: way she's written, I'm like, this sounds like a woke
Speaker 1: dude wrote this character, and they like tried their best.
Speaker 1: They're like, we're not going to damsel her constantly, but
Speaker 1: there is still like little things. So you're just like,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to fix that where you know, like
Speaker 1: there there there is that implied flirtation between her and
Speaker 1: Miles the whole time, and thank god they didn't. I
Speaker 1: was really worried they're gonna try to shoehorn a kiss
Speaker 1: and at the end they don't but they it's they're
Speaker 1: setting up a kiss at some point in the future.
Speaker 3: Perhaps, yeah, although I mean the way.
Speaker 1: He talks to her for the first time is is
Speaker 1: because like he wants, like his uncle said, put your
Speaker 1: hand on a girl's shoulder, and like, oh, that's how
Speaker 1: we knew he was a villain. But he's like, put
Speaker 1: a hand in a girl's shoulder and like be smooth.
Speaker 1: And it's played in the movie like, oh, he's just
Speaker 1: an awkward teenager. But it's like, no, movie, come on,
Speaker 1: that's something that could have been so easily done differently
Speaker 1: or had her call him out more about it, because
Speaker 1: what happens in the movie is he got compowers now, right,
Speaker 1: So he's a little bit sticky sticky, and so he's
Speaker 1: trying to impress Gwen. He's hearing his thoughts out loud.
Speaker 1: He's freaked out. He remembers his uncle's advice to like
Speaker 1: put your hand on a girl's shoulder to be cool,
Speaker 1: and he does that to Gwen, and his hand sticks
Speaker 1: to her hair because of his spider com and then
Speaker 1: he basically starts whipping her around with his hand and
Speaker 1: she's like, oh fuck, and then you cut too. She
Speaker 1: has to get a haircut because it's sticky hands, and
Speaker 1: he says like, nice to meet you, and we're supposed
Speaker 1: to be like tea heat. But he doesn't apologize.
Speaker 3: And apologize for their coumb No, they don't.
Speaker 1: They just put it wherever they want.
Speaker 4: Literally do.
Speaker 1: It's disgusting. It stops now. But I mean, and he
Speaker 1: never asks to put his hand on her shoulder, and
Speaker 1: I think if you had, she probably wouldn't have said yes, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, based on that conversation.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there is.
Speaker 3: There's a whole scene where Uncle Aaron is basically teaching
Speaker 3: Miles how to, you know, give what's probably usually an
Speaker 3: unwanted touch to his peers and the.
Speaker 1: Process of wearing down that is sort of being described.
Speaker 3: So yeah, we can see that as ooh, that's gross.
Speaker 3: That's a gross thing to teach a young boy.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I guess the fact that it ends horribly is.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't though, because she still wants to be
Speaker 1: his friend and they still end up being like BFFs
Speaker 1: and he never has to apologize, and I just feel
Speaker 1: like it's not the worst thing in the world. But
Speaker 1: he doesn't apologize, and she ends up like having a
Speaker 1: crush on him.
Speaker 3: Anyways, I don't think she has a crush on him.
Speaker 3: I think she like sets some pretty clear boundaries of like.
Speaker 3: But I'm also like really bad at identifying romance when
Speaker 3: I see it, because I would be.
Speaker 4: Really surprised if they made another one of these movies
Speaker 4: and that didn't continue and intensify.
Speaker 3: I would be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't happen, because
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, that is I think that is probably
Speaker 3: the way it's being set up. But also I would
Speaker 3: argue that the language that they use is like, I
Speaker 3: don't really do friends anymore, and he's like, well, if
Speaker 3: you decide to do friends again, like I could open
Speaker 3: up a spot for you.
Speaker 1: Like it's always in terms of he like accepts the boundary. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just I don't know. I think that like saying
Speaker 1: that their relationship isn't flirtatious in nature like it so is.
Speaker 3: At the beginning, Yes, I would, I feel like, I
Speaker 3: don't know, toward the end, I feel like it's strictly platonic.
Speaker 3: But again, I'm maybe just.
Speaker 1: Not reading that right. I guess I just disagree on that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I just think that that's a kind of a
Speaker 1: waste of Gwen's limited time on screen is having a flirtation.
Speaker 1: We've seen that in Spider Man a million times. Don't
Speaker 1: need to see it again. Didn't need her to. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess they both rescue each other, so it kind
Speaker 1: of evens out. But I just wanted a little bit
Speaker 1: more for the way Gwen is portrayed, and then for uh,
Speaker 1: for Penny Parker, just to see more for I feel
Speaker 1: like you see the least from her out of everyone,
Speaker 1: her and Noir.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you sort of see the least of well, the
Speaker 3: three like Spider people who are introduced later on, I'd
Speaker 3: say they're all equal parts. Not that important, right, But
Speaker 3: Penny's computer friend breaks at some point, Like.
Speaker 1: I don't care, but I'm sad.
Speaker 3: Yeah it did. The movie did make it seem like, look,
Speaker 3: how sad we all are at this, and we're like, well,
Speaker 3: we didn't really get to know Penny's character, So I'm
Speaker 3: not very emotionally affected by.
Speaker 1: That, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does mean that the one woman who is
Speaker 3: a person of color who belongs to the Spider Gang
Speaker 3: doesn't does get much attention paid.
Speaker 1: To her, right, So that's the Spider team, that's it.
Speaker 3: And it's also I mean, I was reminded of The
Speaker 3: Avengers in this where there is like an ensemble team
Speaker 3: of superheroes, but the men are largely driving the story.
Speaker 3: The women don't have their own movie. This is Miles's movie,
Speaker 3: and you know, hopefully maybe we'll get off like a
Speaker 3: Penny Parker spin off or a Gwen's Stacy spin off,
Speaker 3: but maybe.
Speaker 1: I mean, but the main focus of the friendship inside
Speaker 1: of this Spider team is Peter Parker and Miles Morales. Yes,
Speaker 1: that is the core friendship. And I think if we
Speaker 1: look at the friendship between Peter Parker and Miles Morales
Speaker 1: and the friendship between Gwen Stacy and Miles Morales, there
Speaker 1: are some gendered differences, but the friend I mean, the
Speaker 1: friend of between Peter and Miles, Like, I don't really
Speaker 1: have any issue with it. I think it's like a
Speaker 1: cool example of things I wish we saw more in
Speaker 1: like female driven narratives of mentorship because that is like
Speaker 1: the key to anything happening is and so it is
Speaker 1: cool to see it, like both Peter Parker's take on
Speaker 1: Miles as a you know, student kind of in this
Speaker 1: like almost karate kid kind of way of like they
Speaker 1: teach him the ways of the Spider and the comwebs,
Speaker 1: and they sort of form that teacher mentor relationship, and
Speaker 1: then you get the natural end of that relationship, which
Speaker 1: is like the student has exceeded the powers of the
Speaker 1: teacher and the teacher must learn to let go.
Speaker 4: And then he does, and he goes back to being
Speaker 4: fixed Spider Man in normal Spider Man world or I
Speaker 4: guess original Spider Man world.
Speaker 3: I mean, well, that is weird because he goes back
Speaker 3: to a world where Coca Cola is called Coca cola.
Speaker 3: The world that Miles lives in is called Coca Soda.
Speaker 3: So it's like, it's not quite our universe.
Speaker 1: It's it's a little bit.
Speaker 3: There's also a Seth Rogan movie. I don't know if
Speaker 3: you caught that, but they're all right when all the
Speaker 3: Spider people like bounce into Times Square from their respect dimensions.
Speaker 1: Seth Rogen exists in every multiverse.
Speaker 3: S post her for a movie called Hold Your Horses,
Speaker 3: and then it says like starring Seth.
Speaker 1: Rogen, glad that Seth Rogan got an appearance in his
Speaker 1: five hundredth movie this year. I'm exhausted.
Speaker 3: Anyway, Let's take another break and we will come right back,
Speaker 3: and we are back.
Speaker 1: Can we talk about Octavius? Yeah? I liked her. We
Speaker 1: don't really know that much about her personally. Her friends
Speaker 1: call her live, her friends call her live. That's basically always.
Speaker 1: I mean, she's an ambitious woman in stem who hates
Speaker 1: Spider Man, which I think we're sort of just taking
Speaker 1: it face value because we're like, oh, Doc Kok always
Speaker 1: hates Spider Man. Where uh if we go to the
Speaker 1: alpha Molina interpretation please of Doc Cok. You know, it's,
Speaker 1: first of all, I'm not saying that Catherine Hahn did,
Speaker 1: but you know, the golden standard has been said.
Speaker 3: Sure, and no one can reach it except for our.
Speaker 1: Except for letting him reprise the role. Right. But I
Speaker 1: do think that there is a distinct difference, and maybe
Speaker 1: there just wasn't the real estate and the filmmakers are
Speaker 1: kind of assuming, like, well, you know, he's you know
Speaker 1: or she in this case like Doc Cock cakee spider Man.
Speaker 3: Duh.
Speaker 1: But but in Spider Man two two thousand and four,
Speaker 1: we find out explicit reasons why Docock hates Spider Man,
Speaker 1: and there is more of a relationship between Doc Cock
Speaker 1: and Spider Man, and we find out about Doc Cock's
Speaker 1: personal life. Yeah, sort and a kind of like fridging
Speaker 1: in a definitely friging narrative of his wife. His wife
Speaker 1: gets killed and he, you know, he's tortured by his
Speaker 1: own technology, and he's possessed by his own technology, and
Speaker 1: there's there's just a lot there, beautifully. And while I
Speaker 1: like Olivia Octavius, she fills the role a villain needs
Speaker 1: to fill, I don't.
Speaker 3: She's not characterize nearly as much as like fisk Is
Speaker 3: or as you know, or ass doc oc. But I
Speaker 3: guess or is the or is what is the name
Speaker 3: of the uncle villain the Prowler?
Speaker 1: The Prowler. I feel like there is a version where
Speaker 1: you can almost write Octavius out of this version. The
Speaker 1: reason she needs to be there is because she has
Speaker 1: the technology to build the fucking whatever that makes the multiverse.
Speaker 1: But outside of that, what purpose does she serve in
Speaker 1: this world besides to carry out the scientific task? Because
Speaker 1: I feel like Prowler gets all the parts of the
Speaker 1: of a villain that we really like, which is like
Speaker 1: personal connection to the protagonist, a struggle between the two
Speaker 1: of them, like things they have in common, things they
Speaker 1: don't have in common, and that just doesn't exist for
Speaker 1: octavious at all. We're just like dococ hate Spider Man,
Speaker 1: and so she hates all the Spider Man.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I feel like that there is I guess
Speaker 3: we're just we're so used to doc Cock being like
Speaker 3: a crucial player in the Spider Verse because of what
Speaker 3: we've seen in Spider Man two. In this thing, she
Speaker 3: carries out that very specific function of having created the
Speaker 3: collider and that's all we But the.
Speaker 1: Other two villains, we know a lot about their personal life. Fisk,
Speaker 1: we know his wife, yeah, and his son and how
Speaker 1: he lost them, an ego and all that shit, and
Speaker 1: he's a big square and he's sad. We know all that.
Speaker 1: We get that in the flashback sequence with Probably. We
Speaker 1: know who he is to the protagonist. We know why
Speaker 1: this relationship is difficult and why it's so sad to
Speaker 1: lose him. But it's I feel like they kind of
Speaker 1: were like all female rubit of doc Cog and then
Speaker 1: just sort of didn't do anything with it, Like we
Speaker 1: don't know anything about.
Speaker 3: Her, well, we don't know anything about I don't know
Speaker 3: this is a name Scorpion or something. There's another villain
Speaker 3: who's like in the Bad Guy Gang. We know next
Speaker 3: to nothing about and then like the Green Goblin, we
Speaker 3: don't know. I think it feels like she is just
Speaker 3: sort of like an ancillary character who is familiar to us,
Speaker 3: so we're like, oh, we know her. I mean, I
Speaker 3: know what you're saying.
Speaker 1: And I just feel like it's kind of gender swap
Speaker 1: be to make the move of gender swapping a character
Speaker 1: and then not doing anything with it. Sure, especially if an.
Speaker 3: Original character was so deeply characterized, Like it almost feels
Speaker 3: like a we gender swapped it so you wouldn't see
Speaker 3: it coming kind of thing. It did feel like that,
Speaker 3: like kind of that corny where it's be twist where
Speaker 3: they're like the like I mean, if we go if
Speaker 3: you go further back and enough, like the doctor was
Speaker 3: a woman like that kind of like you're supposed to
Speaker 3: be like, oh, that's not Alfred Moleyna. I assume well
Speaker 3: that there's a line in the movie where Peter Parker
Speaker 3: is God, this fucking is so distracting, its relentless Yeah,
Speaker 3: where Peter Parker is like laying out the plan whenever
Speaker 3: they get to alchem X, and he's like, all right,
Speaker 3: step one infiltrate the lab, step two, find the leads.
Speaker 3: They do do that? And then Myles is like, that
Speaker 3: was like the lady and the scientists.
Speaker 4: Oh cool.
Speaker 3: He's like, I need to re examine my personal biases
Speaker 3: because you just assumed that the scientist would be a man,
Speaker 3: didn't you, Peter Well, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, to be fair, and the Jake Johnson Peter Parker
Speaker 1: universe doc Cock is Alfred Molina. Uh so we have
Speaker 1: to assume that that cartoon spider Man knows Alfred Willina
Speaker 1: personally and maybe even saw him performed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean probably, yeah, probably, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean I don't really have anything to say about
Speaker 1: the Doccock character other than like it was cool that
Speaker 1: they you know, like, I don't think there's any ethical
Speaker 1: issue with them gender swapping that character. It just felt
Speaker 1: like it was done in lieu of you know, she's
Speaker 1: supposed to be a more prominent villain than the Scorpion guy, Like,
Speaker 1: we don't know anything. I feel like we almost don't
Speaker 1: know anything about the Scorpion guy kind of for a reason.
Speaker 1: But you know, she's the first villain that we really meet, yeah,
Speaker 1: in Earnest, and a big deal is made of her
Speaker 1: reveal and then we just don't And then my friends call.
Speaker 3: Me live right. Yeah. Well, more a little more on
Speaker 3: that is that we've talked in various other episodes on
Speaker 3: action movies where there seems to be a trend where
Speaker 3: men who are usually the heroes, the action heroes, when
Speaker 3: they're fighting, there's usually not women for them to fight.
Speaker 3: They're usually fighting other men. Yeah, and if they are
Speaker 3: fighting women, they're always like, can I hit a woman,
Speaker 3: even if she's trying to kill me? And so we've
Speaker 3: had different discussions on various episodes about that there tends
Speaker 3: to be this thing. It's like, well, so that we
Speaker 3: don't have to like even broach this subject, Let's just
Speaker 3: make sure that men are only fighting men in this movie, Doc,
Speaker 3: Dog poses a serious threat. You know, she is trying
Speaker 3: to kill the Spider people. Yeah, she has these mechanical
Speaker 3: arms that can cause a lot of damage, and we
Speaker 3: understand that she's a dangerous adversary. We see men fighting her,
Speaker 3: punching her in the face, you know, like.
Speaker 1: And it not being a gender thing. It's being a fight,
Speaker 1: right movie.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that is cool and the way and in
Speaker 4: sort of in contrast to our annoyance with how Gwen's
Speaker 4: fighting is stylized, uh doc doc stylizing isn't you know
Speaker 4: femed up?
Speaker 1: No, And anyway, Nora is her costume. She's basically wearing
Speaker 1: the same thing that icon Alfred Molina war.
Speaker 3: I mean a long coat along a trench coat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, listen, Doc Dog wears a trench coat. That's cannon.
Speaker 1: If you don't like it, watch another movie. I don't
Speaker 1: like to say it's a trench coat movie. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: just wish that there was more there for her. We
Speaker 1: just we just don't know how how Doc Hawk feels
Speaker 1: about Miles Morales. We just know that she hates the
Speaker 1: entity that is Spider. She'll she'll kill any Spider person.
Speaker 3: So I did the prejudice there against spider people?
Speaker 1: Why are we talking about this? What is going on
Speaker 1: with the octopi and the spiders? They both got a legs? God?
Speaker 3: Maybe that she's like, I'm the only eight leg eight
Speaker 3: leg yeah, so screw.
Speaker 1: Us A wild storyline.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So, I just.
Speaker 3: I just only want that movie where it's like octopus
Speaker 3: legs get along.
Speaker 1: That's a good I.
Speaker 3: Mean, plenty of two legged people can't get along.
Speaker 1: So wow, Caitlyn Deep a birthday lesson, a birthday lesson
Speaker 1: from our had it into her Jesus years, she started
Speaker 1: to really impart some I'm thirty bitch, I'm thirty three.
Speaker 1: You really have to start giving some christ like insights this.
Speaker 3: Year, Oh my god. Cool.
Speaker 1: Anyway, Aunt May was one of my favorite surprises in
Speaker 1: the movie of Like, it's hard not to be critical
Speaker 1: of the way that character is written in the original
Speaker 1: story where she is just a nice old lady and
Speaker 1: we love that for her, but she's completely weak. She's
Speaker 1: i think in multiple movies she is damsel.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, stolen by you know, captured by the villain.
Speaker 1: She's damseled by by Alfred Molina.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: He has that great anecdote about that scene where I
Speaker 1: guess they were on set and he was holding her
Speaker 1: in his claw and she's, you know, like the actress
Speaker 1: was older, and she was like kind of uncomfortable and
Speaker 1: kind of annoyed, and she just like turned to him
Speaker 1: and she's just like, you know, I went to Juliard
Speaker 1: and she was like, oh, I'm sorry, which is really funny.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, she's constantly damseled and or just
Speaker 3: sort of like oblivious a lot of the time, where
Speaker 3: she doesn't see why aren't you home?
Speaker 1: And is so is so I mean even if you
Speaker 1: compare her to Uncle Ben in the Samaraimi movies, like
Speaker 1: Uncle Ben was at least cogent and knew what was
Speaker 1: going on, but like aunt May always needed Peter's help,
Speaker 1: whether it was financial, whether it was to save her life,
Speaker 1: like she was very rarely.
Speaker 3: Well, uncle Ben dies before or anything happens.
Speaker 1: But I mean, we get to know Uncle Ben a
Speaker 1: little bit in the first movie where he's he is
Speaker 1: like very masculine, and it seems more involved in Peter's
Speaker 1: like formation than Aunt May is, or that's what's like implied.
Speaker 1: And then ann May seems sort of like and there
Speaker 1: are moments where she gets to, you know, do her thing,
Speaker 1: but you know, she's a grieving wife, she's a maternal caretaker,
Speaker 1: and she's constantly damseled. But in this version Watch Out Baby,
Speaker 1: she's a scientist who makes spider weapons, and that is great.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I almost didn't really need to know that
Speaker 1: much more cause it and you get that cool moment
Speaker 1: where in aunt May's universe Peter Parker's dad and in
Speaker 1: Peter Parker's universe, Aunt May is dead, so they're both
Speaker 1: seeing each other but not and you're like, oh, that's nice.
Speaker 1: And then she's like, anyways, Spider Lab, Yeah, she.
Speaker 3: Knows exactly what's gone. She's like, let me guess you're
Speaker 3: from another dimension. Let's go, let's deal with this shit.
Speaker 4: She's almost like fucking Michael Caine and Batman, where she's
Speaker 4: just like badass older.
Speaker 1: Person who has all the gear. Mm hmm, what is
Speaker 1: his name?
Speaker 3: The butler Alfred Alfred, not to be confused with Alfred Molina.
Speaker 1: We should do the Batman movies at some point. That
Speaker 1: would be fucking what a trip that would be.
Speaker 3: Oh I should have mentioned this earlier. But in the
Speaker 3: newer reboot of Spider Man with Tom Holland, the version
Speaker 3: of Aunt May that we see in those movies is
Speaker 3: she's hot. That's her thing. She's played by Marissa Tommy,
Speaker 3: and it's important that you know that she's hot and
Speaker 3: that is I like.
Speaker 1: This choice way that I got. Sometimes with these movies,
Speaker 1: like superhero movies in particular, you can just like hear
Speaker 1: the executive focus groups just like just like totally miss
Speaker 1: really like no, no, no, what if I May? What
Speaker 1: if you are a fucker? You're like, no, that's what
Speaker 1: are you talking about. There's so few roles for older
Speaker 1: women Anyways, I loved Lily Tomlin's Aunt Ma character totally,
Speaker 1: yet like she's not a main character, not a lot
Speaker 1: of attention is drawn to her, I think for plot reasons,
Speaker 1: but they just like that's good adaptation. Is like take
Speaker 1: a character that people are familiar with and like turning
Speaker 1: them up and modernizing them and making them cool and
Speaker 1: useful to the plot. Yes, so I liked that.
Speaker 4: Agree, Mary Jane's there, she's still his wife.
Speaker 1: In this way.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, we don't see a ton of her.
Speaker 1: What happened to her theater career?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Ah, she is a fucking Fisk Tower at
Speaker 3: that benefit dinner, and it's like, can't you see that
Speaker 3: that guy is mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like you were Spider Man.
Speaker 3: That would be like bouse, that would be like if
Speaker 3: she went.
Speaker 1: To like Donald Trump Trump from Tower House. So yeah,
Speaker 1: she's kind of I mean, it makes sense that she's sidelined.
Speaker 1: But but there there is a version of that character
Speaker 1: where they could have done something cool with her like
Speaker 1: they did with Aunt May and didn't just present her
Speaker 1: as like grieving lady with nice hair.
Speaker 3: Maybe we'll see some of that in school perhaps.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, you don't hire Zoe Kravitz for no reason, right, right,
Speaker 1: She's great.
Speaker 3: I love her well. I think that was about all
Speaker 3: I had to say about one of my new favorite movies.
Speaker 1: I thought this movie is an absolute blast and is
Speaker 1: some of the best, the best you're gonna get in
Speaker 1: terms of representation in a modern movie. It's I thought
Speaker 1: it was weird that there wasn't any space made for
Speaker 1: a queer character where there are so many characters. It's
Speaker 1: not a particular I mean, it's not a romantic movie,
Speaker 1: but it would have. It just seems like, I mean,
Speaker 1: if there's future installments, this is a very inclusive movie,
Speaker 1: and that's in the DNA of what the movie is,
Speaker 1: so like, you know, make a.
Speaker 3: Little more sure.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 3: That reminds me though. One of the very few things
Speaker 3: that we do know about MJ in this universe is
Speaker 3: that she voted for Docopher Peter be In addition to that,
Speaker 3: at least for Peter B. Parker's the MJ. Johnson Jake Johnson.
Speaker 3: She wants children, so she's given a very like right
Speaker 3: and then maternal boring, and he's like, and that's why
Speaker 3: our marriage fell apart, because I wasn't ready to have kids.
Speaker 3: And then by the end, He's like, wait a minute,
Speaker 3: I'm proud of Miles Morales. Maybe I do want children.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, my spider come loaded. Let's make Spiner
Speaker 3: me and you know, having children is great. Let's perpetuate
Speaker 3: the species. But that's the real thing that we know about.
Speaker 3: We don't need any more white women who voted for
Speaker 3: Donald Trump reproducing. Okay, thank you, but yeah, other than that,
Speaker 3: it does a fairly good job, at least compared to
Speaker 3: the Spider Man franchise as a.
Speaker 1: Whole knocking down the apartment.
Speaker 3: They are hurting someone. I do not know what they're
Speaker 3: doing there. Again, listeners, apologies if this has been an
Speaker 3: annoying episode to listen to because of the machinery that's
Speaker 3: happening next door. But there's simply nothing we can do
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 1: There's nothing we can do about it. This is listen.
Speaker 4: Tell your friends to keep plunging to the Matreon and
Speaker 4: we'll get a mansion o liven.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, we'll all find some secluded house in the
Speaker 3: where you get.
Speaker 1: A tree house. You get a really nice tree house
Speaker 1: that seems realistic. Someday I think I want I want
Speaker 1: to We need to just dig. They don't charge to dig.
Speaker 1: It does sound like a crazy conspiracy went wild. We
Speaker 1: said that can't we just need to buy a five
Speaker 1: foot square foot digging all right? Well that was that
Speaker 1: was that, Hey, what are under other people's houses? Right?
Speaker 1: And then just like they don't know?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I've been reading too much about.
Speaker 3: The Denver Airport zoned for that if I don't know, if.
Speaker 4: They can you legislate, yes you can, Okay, but.
Speaker 1: You know I think that I'm gonna start tunneling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're gonna get Everyone should look up conspiracy theories about
Speaker 1: the Denver Airport. I can't stop thinking about it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's tunnels. Wow, yep.
Speaker 3: Hey does this movie past the Bechdel.
Speaker 1: Tast I thought it came close, but I don't think
Speaker 1: it does. Do Gwen and Dot ok ever exchange words?
Speaker 6: Not that I.
Speaker 3: Noticed, And Gwen and Penny Parker also, I do not
Speaker 3: believe interact right. The only conversation that I noticed was
Speaker 3: where Aunt Ma says, oh, geez, are those sweatpants referring
Speaker 3: to Peter Parker's sweatpants, and then Gwen says, yep, that's
Speaker 3: what they are. But they're talking about Peter Parker's clothes.
Speaker 1: Peter Parker's body.
Speaker 3: It does kind of objectifying him, which actually is like
Speaker 3: that's what we should be doing.
Speaker 1: It is it is nuts to me that this could
Speaker 1: be that is so like progressive fails this very easy
Speaker 1: metrics and this is not what the kind of movie
Speaker 1: where you're like, well, but like in this case, I
Speaker 1: don't think the Bechdel test is a flawed metric at all.
Speaker 1: We have a lot and I think that that does
Speaker 1: speak to how underdeveloped some of these female characters are, right,
Speaker 1: and how one dimensional they are, and how they're I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like the main thing with Bechtel, with the
Speaker 1: Bechtel test is that it really if it doesn't pass,
Speaker 1: it identifies how a movie is using its female characters.
Speaker 1: It's either that they're not there, like Star Wars the
Speaker 1: first one, or it's if you have a lot of
Speaker 1: women and it's still not passing the Bechdel test, then
Speaker 1: they probably only exist in relation to the male characters,
Speaker 1: or they're tokenized. And I think that that is kind
Speaker 1: of how this movie works, where Gwen and doc Oc
Speaker 1: are active characters that are within most scenes with them
Speaker 1: the only woman present yea, or there's a lot of
Speaker 1: women who exist only in relation to men. You've got
Speaker 1: miles of Mom, You've got Fisks, his wife, You've got
Speaker 1: I don't really know where Penny Parker.
Speaker 3: I mean, she's just we just don't really know anything
Speaker 3: about her, right, you would think she and Gwen would
Speaker 3: at least have some small exchange. I mean, they're all
Speaker 3: working together toward the same goal. And then you would
Speaker 3: also think that Aunt May and like, at least Gwen
Speaker 3: would talk a little bit more, or May and or I.
Speaker 1: Mean Parker gwent Yeah, because it's like Gwen. I think
Speaker 1: Gwen and Aunt May. That is like the scene where
Speaker 1: two women are in the same scene for the longest
Speaker 1: and not fighting, so that there's plausible there'd be some
Speaker 1: dialogue between them. Yeah, and it just simply doesn't happen. Also,
Speaker 1: there if you run the numbies on this progressive movie,
Speaker 1: only twenty one percent of cast and crew members were
Speaker 1: women and eleven percent of key cast and crew members
Speaker 1: were people of color.
Speaker 3: Shit shit indeed, Well it goes to show that we
Speaker 3: still have a lot of work to do. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I do encourage our listeners and and us because sometimes
Speaker 1: I think we slip on this to also be looking
Speaker 1: at who is behind the camera because this movie is
Speaker 1: a very male dominated production crew and very white dominated
Speaker 1: production crew, and the cast is fairly diverse, but behind
Speaker 1: the scenes not much diversity. You got Amy Pascal and
Speaker 1: her emails which identify as female, so unfortunately there are
Speaker 1: still not a lot of people of color or women
Speaker 1: in key roles. This is still majority white guys. It
Speaker 1: should be said that the movie is directed by three dudes.
Speaker 1: One of the directors, Peter Ramsey, is a black man,
Speaker 1: and also it was the first black director to ever
Speaker 1: be nominated for Best Animated Feature.
Speaker 3: Oh cool, which is really cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, percentage wise still pretty I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like, that's pretty abysmallybaut eleven percent people
Speaker 1: of color, especially in this in the first like Avro
Speaker 1: Lutino s Spider Man Kurt, like eleven percent. It's shit higher, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 3: And hello, it's Caitlin and Jamie from the Future.
Speaker 5: We've learned so much.
Speaker 3: So we wanted to redo our nipple ratings for this
Speaker 3: movie because again, we've we've grown, we've learned, and when
Speaker 3: we originally gave the nipple rating for this movie, it
Speaker 3: was before we were taking like a more fully intersectional
Speaker 3: approach to the nipple rating. So I would like to
Speaker 3: amend the ratings that we gave.
Speaker 5: And I wouldn't, but fine, no, I, I uh yes,
Speaker 5: this this is the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: And also it's just.
Speaker 5: Another time to write about the Spider Verse because it comes.
Speaker 3: Out so soon, Yes, indeed, and so we are here
Speaker 3: to give our updated nipple ratings. The Nipple scale, of
Speaker 3: course being our perfect, amazing, incredible metric.
Speaker 5: Iconic nothing like it, never done before, won't be done.
Speaker 3: Again truly, and it works like this. We rate on
Speaker 3: a scale of zero to five nipples based on looking
Speaker 3: at the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. As such. Again,
Speaker 3: I deeply love this movie. It is one of my
Speaker 3: favorites of all time. It has so much going for it.
Speaker 3: Superhero movies are usually like the most popular and highest
Speaker 3: grossing movies that come out in any year, but they
Speaker 3: still so often center whiteness and center men, and it's still.
Speaker 5: Like very much out of the norm. That not to
Speaker 5: be the case, which is not the fault of this movie.
Speaker 5: But I remember the original conversation around this movie being.
Speaker 4: Like, wow, can you imagine, And at the time many
Speaker 4: people could not, which is depressing.
Speaker 3: And before this movie came out, I remember there was
Speaker 3: a lot of discourse about like, can we have a
Speaker 3: black Spider Man? And Donald Glover was in the running,
Speaker 3: and then that didn't happen, to the upset of many people.
Speaker 3: But studios are cowards and they didn't do it anyway.
Speaker 3: So this movie coming out in twenty eighteen felt like
Speaker 3: a big win at the time, and it still feels
Speaker 3: like a big win. And I love it, and I
Speaker 3: hope to see more diversity in obviously all movies, including
Speaker 3: super hero movies. It is is a story about fathers
Speaker 3: and sons, but not against Yeah, it's not against the law.
Speaker 3: Just because it happens every single day doesn't mean it's
Speaker 3: always a bad thing. And what I appreciate about this
Speaker 3: one is that the main arc of the like father
Speaker 3: son subplot is two male characters needing to learn to
Speaker 3: open up and express their emotions to each other and
Speaker 3: to show affection and vulnerability with each other. They obviously
Speaker 3: still have a ways to go on that journey, but
Speaker 3: it's nice to see that dynamic explored in a father
Speaker 3: son relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I also likeciated that.
Speaker 4: I also like that by the end of the movie,
Speaker 4: like their relationship is it isn't like Movie five of like,
Speaker 4: and their relationship is totally repaired and everything will be
Speaker 4: great from here on out. Like it's incremental and I'm
Speaker 4: excited to see how that you know what motion is
Speaker 4: in future installments.
Speaker 3: Right, And it seems based on the trailers. Again, at
Speaker 3: the time of this recording, we have not yet seen
Speaker 3: across the Spider Verse, but it seems to get getting
Speaker 3: great reviews. It seems like women do play a more
Speaker 3: integral and active role in this movie. Based on the trailers,
Speaker 3: it feels like there might be more of a focus
Speaker 3: on Miles's relationship with his mother yay, which is one
Speaker 3: of the gripes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, your number one criticism of this movie.
Speaker 3: Yes, so that's exciting. Seems like we get even more
Speaker 3: female Spider people in this one, Spider Women. Seems like
Speaker 3: you get more female villains in this So it just
Speaker 3: feels like women are more meaningfully included in this movie
Speaker 3: that's coming out. I'm excited. But all of this in mind,
Speaker 3: I'm going to give the movie four nipples, which is
Speaker 3: a pretty significant bump from what I had given it originally.
Speaker 3: Maybe it's just because this movie keeps growing on me.
Speaker 3: It's not perfect. There are some as we discussed, there
Speaker 3: are some things, but it's nice to see that.
Speaker 4: I mean, and again we haven't seen it, but yeah,
Speaker 4: I noticed that as well, where it seems like the
Speaker 4: franchise is becoming even more inclusive as it continues, and
Speaker 4: I'm excited about that.
Speaker 1: Who are you giving you nipples to?
Speaker 3: I'm gonna spread my nipples out between Miles, his mom, Spider,
Speaker 3: Gwen and you know what, Spider Ham. Wow, it's a nipple.
Speaker 1: Yeah, iconic.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'll meet you at four and I'll leave it. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I'll meet you at four because I do. I mean,
Speaker 4: I was revisiting this episode as well, and you know,
Speaker 4: points were made. I think that this movie's great strength
Speaker 4: is it's a beautiful, beautiful coming of age story that's inclusive.
Speaker 4: It is like, this has nothing to do with the
Speaker 4: nipple scale, but it's like one of the most beautiful
Speaker 4: animated movies ever made, truly, and I just love it
Speaker 4: very very much, and I think you put it very beautifully.
Speaker 4: I think the only other thing I would want to
Speaker 4: point out is behind the scenes stuff, and I know
Speaker 4: we talked about this in the original episode. I think
Speaker 4: there was more room for inclusivity behind the scenes this movie.
Speaker 4: There are a lot of white guys behind the scenes,
Speaker 4: and it's very heavily men. And I actually I haven't
Speaker 4: checked out. I know that there's a new crop of
Speaker 4: directors for this.
Speaker 5: Next installment, I think because directing one of these movies
Speaker 5: basically kills you.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: But and so I haven't looked into that. And I'm
Speaker 4: I guess, I guess, I suppose I'm excited about it.
Speaker 4: I don't know, whatever, No, but I really this movie
Speaker 4: is so beautiful.
Speaker 5: And as we now know, extremely re watchable, and I
Speaker 5: think it's.
Speaker 4: Just like a great introduction to superhero movies for kids
Speaker 4: for sure. Yeah, I'm so excited for the new one.
Speaker 4: So four nipples.
Speaker 5: Let's see.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna give one to Miles obviously, I'm gonna give
Speaker 4: one to Spider Gwen.
Speaker 5: I'll give one to Miles's mom.
Speaker 4: I'll give my last one to Lily Tomlin on May
Speaker 4: because I love Lily tom When not May.
Speaker 3: She's great, she's great. Also, I feel like we should
Speaker 3: give an honorary nipple to Alfred Molina.
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, let's toss in another one. Figure it out.
Speaker 4: Wikipedia page.
Speaker 1: And Yeah, that's us from the future.
Speaker 3: That was our unlocked episode on Spider Man into the
Speaker 3: Spider Verse. Hope you enjoyed it. Hope you enjoy the
Speaker 3: new movie. If you're planning to see it, I know
Speaker 3: I am gonna see it six times. I saw the
Speaker 3: first one in the theaters five times, and I have
Speaker 3: to break my record.
Speaker 1: You get to top it. You can top that. I
Speaker 1: just know it. I can't wait to see it. I'm
Speaker 1: going to see it.
Speaker 4: With my brother this week.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yes, thank you so much for listening. Again.
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed that Looser Discussion, that is an unlocked
Speaker 1: Patreon aka Patreon episode, which you can go sign up
Speaker 1: for right now over at patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast.
Speaker 1: That's five bucks a month and you get access not
Speaker 1: just to two new episodes a month with Kaitlin and
Speaker 1: myself in the Looser Discussion format. You'll also get access
Speaker 1: to nearly one hundred and fifty back catalogs because we've
Speaker 1: had the Patreon for for many years.
Speaker 3: Wow brag us Wow wow wow. And you can find
Speaker 3: our merch at teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 3: Grab a T shirt or whatever you want.
Speaker 4: To do.
Speaker 1: Follow your heart. We trust you, and we can't wait
Speaker 1: to talk to you about the next Spider Verse movie.
Speaker 3: Wee see next week. Bye,