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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't think stories of things. We simply
Speaker 1: don't know the answer too. Hey guys, welcome to another
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. I'm Joe, as always,
Speaker 1: joined by and Steve, who doesn't get to change his
Speaker 1: name apparent. Sorry, sorry, just kidding, I'm actually Devon. That's
Speaker 1: Joe and that's Steve. Confused. Uh, this week we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about a murderous series of a serial of murders,
Speaker 1: if you will. We've we've done Jack the Ripper, we
Speaker 1: did the Atlanta Ripper. Now we're going to do Jack
Speaker 1: the Stripper. This is not Jack the stripper that you
Speaker 1: throw at the dollar bills. That's not like kind of stripper.
Speaker 1: It's like actually the opposite of the fun, sexy way
Speaker 1: of stripper. Yeah, there's nothing fun or sexy about this
Speaker 1: old I would agree. Yeah, um, it's all this. This
Speaker 1: case is also often referred to as the Naked Murders,
Speaker 1: or sometimes the Hammersmith murders and it was suggested originally
Speaker 1: by Emily. Thanks Emily. These murders took place between nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty four and nineteen sixty five in London, England. Jack
Speaker 1: the Stripper we're just gonna call him Jack, you know,
Speaker 1: friendly terms. Sorry. Um, he was the alleged perpetrator of six,
Speaker 1: maybe eight murders in London, as we said, uh, kind
Speaker 1: of in the same little area. Yeah, they were in
Speaker 1: the same same district. Yeah, same district area. And um, yeah,
Speaker 1: his modus operandi was similar to Jack the Ripper. You didn't, like,
Speaker 1: you know, carve them open. He did not carve them open, No,
Speaker 1: but they did help kind of lean him towards the
Speaker 1: name with Jack the Stripper, that's one of that was
Speaker 1: one of the comparisons there. It's easy to We've talked
Speaker 1: about this off off the Bike before, is that it's
Speaker 1: it's very funny to me that everybody becomes a Jack
Speaker 1: as soon as they killed at least three hookers, maybe two,
Speaker 1: and then immediately that designation gets thrown out. Yes, they
Speaker 1: are prostitutes, not sex prostitutes. Prostitutes. We don't want to
Speaker 1: offend anyone. No, Jack did murder prostitutes. Only their naked
Speaker 1: bodies were found around London or in the Thames. Quick note,
Speaker 1: I'm apparently only doing mysteries in London now, so that
Speaker 1: everybody can be annoyed at how I pronouncing, So everybod
Speaker 1: he's ready special. And then also as a quick note,
Speaker 1: if you haven't already realized, this is gonna be one
Speaker 1: of those shows that if you have any issues with
Speaker 1: sexual trauma or anything like that, or the kids around,
Speaker 1: maybe this is not the one because we're gonna start
Speaker 1: talking about details. Also, if you're squeamish, this might not
Speaker 1: be the one either. It's not it's not really a
Speaker 1: scory as a lot of ones we talked, but there's
Speaker 1: a lot more kind of potential for actual triggers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and this is the This is more cerebral instead of
Speaker 1: slash slash, slash, bloody, bloody, bloody. There's these are things
Speaker 1: that you start thinking about, some folks, So please be aware. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: did you turn off nod? Okay, you guys ready, let's
Speaker 1: start talking about this. So Jack killed his victims by asphyxiation,
Speaker 1: but it was kind of a unique form of asphyxiation.
Speaker 1: Was basically he strangled his victims by forcing them to
Speaker 1: perform very deep throat filatio. You. Yeah. It's victims were
Speaker 1: found without their underwear, often until it was discovered like
Speaker 1: deep in their throats as gags. Um. Not all of
Speaker 1: the victims, but more than one of the victims their
Speaker 1: underwear was found her underwear the very deep in their throat,
Speaker 1: and they were often missing front teeth, just one or two,
Speaker 1: but still missing front teeth. Uh. And as with most
Speaker 1: serial killers, the episodes that we do about serial killers,
Speaker 1: we're just gonna like run through the victims here real quick.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do all eight in order of discovery, even
Speaker 1: though you usually see the six that they call confirmed
Speaker 1: and then the two at the end, even though actually
Speaker 1: one of the unconfirmed ones is was discovered before. So
Speaker 1: I'm going to do them in chronologic order instead. Cool
Speaker 1: with you, guys, Yeah, cool? Alright. First victim, unconfirmed victim
Speaker 1: of Jack of Jack. I'm not sure that she was
Speaker 1: actually part of the whole series. Yeah, I'm not sure either.
Speaker 1: It's hard to tell. I Um was woman by the
Speaker 1: name of Elizabeth Big. She was twenty one years old.
Speaker 1: She was found dead on June seventeenth, nineteen fifty nine.
Speaker 1: So a good five years before the actual serial murdering started.
Speaker 1: She was found near the River Thames. Her death was
Speaker 1: considered by some to bear a lot of similarities to
Speaker 1: the other victims, namely the the location and the fact
Speaker 1: that she was strangled today strangled right, yeah really and
Speaker 1: that never happens ever, yeah never. So. The next victim,
Speaker 1: which is the first official victim, was Hannah Talford. She
Speaker 1: was thirty and she was found dead on February second,
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, also near the River Thames. Are really
Speaker 1: in kind of near on the shore, I thought, Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was, yeah, so near the shore, Yeah, near the
Speaker 1: shore in the water, yeah yeah, uh and it was
Speaker 1: she was very close actually to the Hammersmith Bridge Um.
Speaker 1: She had been strangled several of her teeth room saying,
Speaker 1: and her underwear was forced down her throat really deep down.
Speaker 1: That sounds unpleasant. Sounds really unpleasant. The next okay, so
Speaker 1: all of the rest of the victims except for the
Speaker 1: last one are official victims. So it's the first and
Speaker 1: the last suspected but not okay. Yeah. Irene Lockwood was
Speaker 1: the second official victim. She was twenty six. Her body
Speaker 1: was found on April eighth, nineteen sixty four, also on
Speaker 1: the river shore, not far from where Hannah was found. Um,
Speaker 1: and that really made police think that, you know, oh gosh,
Speaker 1: there's a serial killer on the loost. She was also
Speaker 1: missing some teeth. She had also died of asphyxiation. Asphyxiation,
Speaker 1: also found without underwear on. I know she's still had
Speaker 1: her stockings on. I think she's the one that still
Speaker 1: had her stockings. It was her. It was her, Hannah,
Speaker 1: one of the two I remember. And they all would
Speaker 1: have some maybe one or two little bits of clothing on.
Speaker 1: Many of them were found with their stock things like
Speaker 1: rolled down to their ankles, which is kind of weird
Speaker 1: because they were also missing their panties and that's like
Speaker 1: a very that's a hard transition to make, just the true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: except for well, I guess in the sixties, it's possible
Speaker 1: they were all still wearing Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: is that I think they were all talking, so there
Speaker 1: is the ability for one to come off without dislodging
Speaker 1: the other. Um. Now, I want to ask you real quick,
Speaker 1: and I know that this will be important later on
Speaker 1: in the story. Is she was so we were just
Speaker 1: talking about Irene and she was found on the eighth,
Speaker 1: but we don't know exactly when she disappeared, correct, Yeah,
Speaker 1: many of the yeah, unless weeks. There's one one victim
Speaker 1: that we know when she disappeared, or we think we
Speaker 1: know when she disappeared. Again, like, there's actually not a
Speaker 1: way to confirmed that this is when she disappeared. But um,
Speaker 1: with with all the other victims, it's hard. You don't
Speaker 1: really know when there were in missing because they weren't
Speaker 1: really reported missing because they were prostitutes and that was
Speaker 1: just kind of the sort of thing. I think most
Speaker 1: of the people who knew these women just assumed they
Speaker 1: moved on to other things. That's been what I mean.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have ever done any
Speaker 1: reading on this, but that's one of the giant dangers
Speaker 1: for people who are sex workers is that you don't
Speaker 1: because of that lifestyle, you don't make any close bonds,
Speaker 1: so therefore nobody knows if you're not around, and then
Speaker 1: so nobody realizes you're gone. And there's a lot of
Speaker 1: groups that are you know, working on things like that
Speaker 1: to try to help that. But that's that's one of
Speaker 1: the giant dangers, absolutely, yeah, and it's it's also possible
Speaker 1: again that they might have just gone off for a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks to work a different part of town. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's but that's the whole thing is that
Speaker 1: with this one exception, which I think is likely, we
Speaker 1: do know when this person, when this girl disappeared. Um,
Speaker 1: the rest of them, we don't really know. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: just know when their bodies were found. You've got and
Speaker 1: they were all and we should say, it didn't look
Speaker 1: like they had been floating for like weeks, you know,
Speaker 1: it was they were relatively recently dumped and probably relatively
Speaker 1: recently murder fresh body fresh bodies, not you know, like
Speaker 1: crawling and gross, not in the water for weeks on end. Yes,
Speaker 1: but but that is important to point out. Thank you
Speaker 1: for bringing that up. Yeah, we don't know when they disappeared.
Speaker 1: Next victim was Helen Barthelmy. She was twenty two. Um.
Speaker 1: She was originally from Blackpool, if that interests anyone. She
Speaker 1: was found dead on April ninety four, UM in an
Speaker 1: alleyway in Brentford. And this actually was the so she
Speaker 1: was the first one. I don't know if you've been
Speaker 1: keeping track of this or not, but she was the
Speaker 1: first body that wasn't found in the river or near
Speaker 1: the water, so she was the first one where the
Speaker 1: police could actually gather physical evidence that might have been
Speaker 1: left behind by the killer. She was a yeah, which
Speaker 1: obviously people find bodies and alleys much quicker because there
Speaker 1: are people are going through there than they do on
Speaker 1: the edge of the river bank. But also there was
Speaker 1: no the water hadn't washed even Irene's body being on
Speaker 1: the shore of the river. It was it was presumed
Speaker 1: she was dumped in the river and then washed on shore,
Speaker 1: so the water would have washed away any kind of
Speaker 1: residue or anything like that, which was actually important because
Speaker 1: Helen's body did actually have some interesting things on her um.
Speaker 1: They found flex of paint used in motor car manufacturing
Speaker 1: or like repainting um automobiles, and the source that I
Speaker 1: that I found, they actually found cold dust on on
Speaker 1: her body, and I think all the subsequent victims have
Speaker 1: goun cold dust. They found red, black and white paint
Speaker 1: flex or little droplets predominantly black, and I presume that's
Speaker 1: why they came to the conclusion that it was involved
Speaker 1: with cars, because back at this time cars in Britain
Speaker 1: were primarily mostly black. Yeah, So yeah, Yeah, so they
Speaker 1: found those flex um and the police felt that it
Speaker 1: was you know, from the killer's workplace. They first they
Speaker 1: started speculating that the killer was was actually like a
Speaker 1: paint sprayer in the motor industry of some kind, whether
Speaker 1: it be in a body shop or in manufacturing or whatever,
Speaker 1: worked in a paint booth all day, Yeah, they thought,
Speaker 1: and particularly pertaining to the auto industry. Well, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean there's that's the thing is that people may not
Speaker 1: realize this, but certain applications re require certain kinds of paint,
Speaker 1: and paint that you put on a car is very
Speaker 1: specific because it's got to withstand the elements for a
Speaker 1: long period of time. Very true. Yep. The next victim
Speaker 1: was Mary Fleming. She was thirty originally from Scotland. She
Speaker 1: was found in in the sitting position at the entrance
Speaker 1: of a garage on July fourteenth in nineteen sixty four.
Speaker 1: And it was a residence that the garage. It was
Speaker 1: a residential garage. It wasn't like it was just some
Speaker 1: random workplace. Yeah. And this was in Chiswick where the
Speaker 1: police presence was actually the heaviest they were. They were
Speaker 1: really heavily patrolling that area. Um, there were again paint
Speaker 1: flex on her body and the coal dust um as well.
Speaker 1: Locals reported that they thought they heard a vehicle backing
Speaker 1: down the street just before the body was discovered, and
Speaker 1: the police suspected it was a car obviously um, but
Speaker 1: since nobody had seen it, they actually couldn't confirm that
Speaker 1: it was a car. They thought it probably you know,
Speaker 1: people said they thought it sounded like a car. I
Speaker 1: am inclined to believe it probably was a car. I
Speaker 1: am I am too. But what the weird thing about
Speaker 1: a car backing away is when you get into residential
Speaker 1: neighborhoods in London, the you know, the house, there's the
Speaker 1: front sides and then the alleys have the backside with
Speaker 1: the garages typically in my experience anyway, and those are
Speaker 1: usually one way streets. So it's really weird that somebody
Speaker 1: would be backing down it because that means they'd have
Speaker 1: to back out into try afic. Well. I mean, granted
Speaker 1: may have been super it was super early in the morning,
Speaker 1: but it's still just not the thing that puzzles me
Speaker 1: is how somebody could hear it and conclude that they
Speaker 1: were backing up as opposed to just driving slowly forward.
Speaker 1: Old cars you put them in reverse, and reverse always
Speaker 1: had a high pitch wine. That's true, there was there
Speaker 1: was always that really typical high pitch gear speed. It
Speaker 1: would happen. That's why I think that people is like, oh,
Speaker 1: somebody's backing up really fast. That's weird. Well, but I
Speaker 1: almost wonder if if the killer was backing down the alley,
Speaker 1: dropped the body and then pulled out so that it
Speaker 1: would look normal, you know what I mean, like back
Speaker 1: down the alley even though it's a one way, back
Speaker 1: down the wrong way, so that they would pull out
Speaker 1: into traffic the right way. You could have driven down
Speaker 1: the alley the wrong way to begin with, andze, that's
Speaker 1: happened to family. Yeah, yeah, no, no, but I'm thinking
Speaker 1: he drives slowly down the alley the wrong way, it
Speaker 1: dumps the body and continues on and people hearing them,
Speaker 1: they hear him going and uh, and they concluded he
Speaker 1: must be backing up, since otherwise that means he'll be
Speaker 1: driving the wrong way down one way street. That's a
Speaker 1: good points. Good point, although because nobody really saw it,
Speaker 1: pretty tiny little clue anyway, so let's not worry about
Speaker 1: it anymore. Yeah. Actually, so the next body that was found.
Speaker 1: Francis Brown is the next victim, the one that we
Speaker 1: find the most about. She was twenty one at the time,
Speaker 1: and she was last seen by fellow prostitute and friend
Speaker 1: Kim Taylor, and Kim last saw her on October twenty three,
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, but Francis's body wasn't discovered until more
Speaker 1: than a month later, November four. Lucky for investigators. Though,
Speaker 1: Kim thought that she had seen the man that Francis
Speaker 1: was picked up by, and she thought that that was
Speaker 1: the last She thought that was Jack. Basically, she thought
Speaker 1: that was probably the last person that Francis had ever
Speaker 1: seen for whatever reason. And they got a sketch of
Speaker 1: that person. They got an identicate, which was a really
Speaker 1: terrible sketch, really really very I wouldn't say terrible, very
Speaker 1: generic um. But they also got a description of the car.
Speaker 1: They thought the car was either a Ford Zephyr or Zodiac,
Speaker 1: neither of which we have in America. We didn't they
Speaker 1: were a British. They were a Ford of Britain. Only
Speaker 1: I was curious, so I looked it up. They shipped
Speaker 1: some of them to the US kind of a novelty
Speaker 1: basis but they were, and they didn't have you know,
Speaker 1: it's funny is that a lot of cars have a
Speaker 1: international companion, so there's one for one name here and
Speaker 1: one name there. This car didn't appear to be They
Speaker 1: look very British, these cars, and they look very little
Speaker 1: squad round fenders. Yeah that I didn't They also to
Speaker 1: make these in Australia. Uh No, I don't, No, well
Speaker 1: I don't. I didn't see anything about this particular line
Speaker 1: being in Australia, but it could have been. I just
Speaker 1: didn't see any they were. They were UK. Only somebody's
Speaker 1: now thinking that Dr Bogol and Mrs Chandler had one
Speaker 1: or something like that, you know. But the thing is
Speaker 1: is because the car lines would be used in one
Speaker 1: country only, they could take the name, and they did
Speaker 1: sometimes put them under places. I'm pretty sure that the
Speaker 1: Zephyr actually got used in the States like five or
Speaker 1: eight years later on a different line. It was like
Speaker 1: a model for a very brief time, so they could
Speaker 1: they would hop from continent to continent that way. But
Speaker 1: it's a weird thing that they get away with. There
Speaker 1: was there was, Yeah, there was definitely a Zephyr I
Speaker 1: think made in the us, but it didn't look anything
Speaker 1: like the British one. No, no, And it was the
Speaker 1: predecessor to the Ford Granada. Yeah, so that's which is
Speaker 1: a totally different car. But it was also you know,
Speaker 1: it was ten years later and Devin is now board
Speaker 1: by Joe's Steve have Cartile checking out on apologize. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I just want to say, how can you not use
Speaker 1: zephyrt because it's a cool name, it's a great name.
Speaker 1: I actually, I really I wish that it's the Zodiac
Speaker 1: so that at least we have a connection to another
Speaker 1: serial killing. Yeah. If they you know what, if they
Speaker 1: ever make the Zodiac car again, people are going to
Speaker 1: be getting that that's the Zodiac symbol on the hood.
Speaker 1: Sure they will never do that ever again, probably for
Speaker 1: that reason. Yeah, so back to our well know, it's
Speaker 1: a killer car. Oh god, it was a good it was.
Speaker 1: It wasn't even a little bit of a good one today.
Speaker 1: So that's uh. That's Francis Brown. And she, like I said,
Speaker 1: she was found a month later. Yeah, a month fullmos
Speaker 1: since she had been seen last. And again it's hard
Speaker 1: to tell. I think the sense I had was that
Speaker 1: investigators thought that Kim and Francis were good enough friends
Speaker 1: that had Francis been free and alive, him would have
Speaker 1: seen her in that time frame. Yeah, you know, I
Speaker 1: almost got the sense of them like living together. So yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think that I'm not if I'm remembering correctly.
Speaker 1: I think Francis Brown. When they found her body, it
Speaker 1: was significantly deteriorated, so she had been probably dead the
Speaker 1: entire month. Yeah. The next victim was Bridget O'Hara. She
Speaker 1: was twenty eight years old, and she's the last official victim.
Speaker 1: She was found behind a storage shed. She had the
Speaker 1: same Yeah. By the way, I think if I had
Speaker 1: this write in another source, I found this was a
Speaker 1: shed that actually had two transformers inside it. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was about to talk about that. Actually, Okay, sorry,
Speaker 1: So she had she did have the same paint flex
Speaker 1: on her body. Um. They were identical to all of
Speaker 1: the other paint flex that had been found. Um. And
Speaker 1: they were actually identical to paint flex also on a
Speaker 1: transformer that Joe mentioned bursting my bubble yet again. The
Speaker 1: transformer was found just a couple of yards away. It
Speaker 1: also appeared that her body had been kept warm it
Speaker 1: was so it was in good condition. So they thought
Speaker 1: maybe it had been kept cool, but again it's hard
Speaker 1: since we don't know. People also say they think it
Speaker 1: might have been mummified in a transformer, right, Yeah, so
Speaker 1: that was the that was the that was the thing,
Speaker 1: that was that was the thing somebody. That's something that
Speaker 1: I think when we say a transformer, what we're talking
Speaker 1: about is a big metal box, you know, several feet
Speaker 1: by several feet that you can somebody could actually climb
Speaker 1: into it large enough, so not the things that are
Speaker 1: up on poles. Yeah, yeah, and so that that's a
Speaker 1: bit of a question. And I've read some places that
Speaker 1: it was mummified. I've read some places that it was
Speaker 1: in good condition and looked like it hadn't been dead
Speaker 1: for very long. I've read some places that they thought
Speaker 1: her body was kept cool for a period of time,
Speaker 1: kept a refrigerator or something like that. So it's hard
Speaker 1: to tell. Again, I don't think somebody hung out and
Speaker 1: watch Telly with the body for a couple of as
Speaker 1: in the cooler, and then you realized the conversation was
Speaker 1: really droll, and yeah, you're just pulling all of those
Speaker 1: really fun English words out, aren't. I'm working. I've been
Speaker 1: watching a lot of English TV. I'm just waiting to
Speaker 1: say boot and car park not gonna happen. That happened.
Speaker 1: So Bridget's body was actually found on February sixteenth, nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty five, so there's a bit of a gap there. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's three months from almost three or four months from
Speaker 1: the prior body he kind of did. It was a
Speaker 1: hop scotch. It's kind of weird, yeah, because the first
Speaker 1: let's see, the first bodies were found within like a
Speaker 1: week or two of each other, April eighth and April, right,
Speaker 1: The first body was February, right, Hannah was the first
Speaker 1: official victim. Oh yeah, sorry, I'm looking at the wrong things.
Speaker 1: So Elizabeth was like four years before, five years. So
Speaker 1: Hannah was found in February, and then nothing until April,
Speaker 1: and then two in April, and then nothing again until
Speaker 1: July with Mary, huh, and then the November and then
Speaker 1: February again, October and November. Well yeah, oh, you're right, right,
Speaker 1: that's right. She disappeared think in October. So yeah, there
Speaker 1: was some It's weird because you you think there would
Speaker 1: be that pattern investigation. There were two real quick right
Speaker 1: after each other, and then nothing for a while. So
Speaker 1: you almost wonder if maybe he actually had to just
Speaker 1: be more careful because after you know, it was after
Speaker 1: that second after the third body I guess was found,
Speaker 1: after the second one in April was found, the police
Speaker 1: started saying, hey, we know there's a dude out there
Speaker 1: killing ladies, Like yeah, yeah, they actually they took poured
Speaker 1: tons of cops into the area, and they they had
Speaker 1: surveillance vans like you know, concealed surveillance fans all over
Speaker 1: the place, and they had women dressed up as prostitutes. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So they I mean, they definitely took it seriously. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and that that might be one of the
Speaker 1: reasons the whole thing stopped. So guys, you know, it
Speaker 1: makes the little hard to get away with these crimes
Speaker 1: from there's thousands of cops hanging around. Yeah, they really
Speaker 1: get in the way of your hobby, do they really do.
Speaker 1: It's tend to go off and become like the Yorkshire
Speaker 1: Ripper or maybe the you know, we're just British novel. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you find a different hobby. There's always that. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: there's one last victim again, it's an unofficial victim, and
Speaker 1: it was Gwyneth Rees and she was twenty two. She
Speaker 1: was found on November eighth, nine sixty three, which is
Speaker 1: obviously later than nineteen sixty five. I'm realizing that this
Speaker 1: particular earlier. No, I meant later, so she should be
Speaker 1: in there earlier. She should actually be at the beginning
Speaker 1: to I'm sorry everyone. She's another outlier. Yeah, she I
Speaker 1: can see more than the other one, Elizabeth. I think
Speaker 1: I see Gwyneth a little bit more. She was twenty two.
Speaker 1: She was found near the River Thames. She died of strangulation,
Speaker 1: but with ligature marks, so that was inconsistent with Jack's
Speaker 1: favorite way of just killing women. Uh and but she
Speaker 1: did also have broken teeth. So you know. The other
Speaker 1: thing we haven't talked about that was consistent among all
Speaker 1: of these women, besides the manner of death and their occupation,
Speaker 1: is that I remember looking at some stuff coming across
Speaker 1: the fact that all but one was dark haired, and
Speaker 1: all of them, they were all of I believe it's
Speaker 1: described as short stature, which means that they were five
Speaker 1: ft three or under. They all looked very similar. Yes,
Speaker 1: they they Yeah, and they're the blonde. The one that's
Speaker 1: the blonde. I can't think. I can't remember the name
Speaker 1: in the list of which one it is that was
Speaker 1: a blonde. I just remember the picture different. She She
Speaker 1: actually is much different than the others. The others all
Speaker 1: looked to me like they could have been related in
Speaker 1: some way. So this guy definitely had a type. He
Speaker 1: was after a certain kind of lady that was really
Speaker 1: his thing. Oh yeah, absolutely. And you know, again, the
Speaker 1: reason that I would argue that I think Gwyneth is
Speaker 1: probably part of this is that I think I think
Speaker 1: there's some escalation. I would be willing to say that
Speaker 1: Gwyneth is the first victim that he first actual the
Speaker 1: first actual victim that he strangled her with her stockings um,
Speaker 1: which I believe is how she died those with the
Speaker 1: literature marks they thought were from instead of you know,
Speaker 1: choking her with flacio, and then it just escalated from
Speaker 1: there because she does she looks a lot like her patterns,
Speaker 1: you know, looks. It looks a lot like something that
Speaker 1: could have been escalated into his actual m O. But
Speaker 1: that'd just be my personal argument. It might be a
Speaker 1: first time around and for something this straight up strangulation,
Speaker 1: and then he sort of develops a new technique after that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the one other thing that I want to I
Speaker 1: want to bring up just briefly because I don't want
Speaker 1: to get into much more detail here, but I know
Speaker 1: that a lot of people are going to be saying, well,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, if Flacio is the way that he's
Speaker 1: strangling him, why don't these women simply bite down off? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Because well, I mean, but the the easy answer is
Speaker 1: is if it's in a if you're in a higher
Speaker 1: position than somebody and you put a thumb in the
Speaker 1: back of somebody's jaw, it locks it open, and therefore
Speaker 1: you incapacitate that that ability. So I just want to
Speaker 1: have that off of the past because I know a
Speaker 1: lot of people like, well, I would just do this.
Speaker 1: Here's the other thing. I don't know. Again, I'm trying
Speaker 1: to think of like a sensitive way to say this,
Speaker 1: but when there's something stuck in the back, like really
Speaker 1: wedged in the back of your throat, it's hard to
Speaker 1: be your jaw muscles don't work like you think they're going.
Speaker 1: And that's the last thing you're thinking about. You're trying
Speaker 1: to breathe. Yeah, oh yeah, yes, you you want to breathe.
Speaker 1: I understand that there is that that gasp and gag
Speaker 1: reflexive I've got to get air. I've got to get air,
Speaker 1: not oh well, I'm gonna go on the offensive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's also possible that they didn't. I mean, we don't
Speaker 1: know what the situation was. It's not as though their
Speaker 1: bodies shown showed great signs of struggle or anything like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, aside from missing teeth. So you also don't
Speaker 1: necessarily know what the situation was that you didn't that
Speaker 1: they didn't realize they were going to die until it
Speaker 1: was too late. You know that that there Jack said,
Speaker 1: you know, okay, this is what we're going to do,
Speaker 1: and then and they were like, okay, I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess you're paying me a lot of money or you've
Speaker 1: you know, offered me a lot of money. And then
Speaker 1: before before you realize it, you aren't breathing, and you're thinking, well,
Speaker 1: surely going to pull up, and then you realized and
Speaker 1: then you're just it's too late. I'm still kind of
Speaker 1: surprised that at least a few of them didn't grab
Speaker 1: some other certain part of the anatomy and well, but
Speaker 1: there's also frankly, there's no way to know that that
Speaker 1: didn't happen. Maybe, I mean, there are people who are
Speaker 1: into that. And that's the other thing is that the
Speaker 1: I think correct me if I'm wrong. But the big
Speaker 1: reason that we think that this is the tool that
Speaker 1: he used to strangle them with is because semen was
Speaker 1: found in their stomachs. Yeah, that that is what has
Speaker 1: led people to believe that that was how they were killed.
Speaker 1: But we don't know that for sure. It could be
Speaker 1: that after the fact he grabbed their underwear, shoved it
Speaker 1: in their mouth and crammed it down there, and in
Speaker 1: some way that's what they choked on. I mean, we
Speaker 1: don't know that for sure. Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. Again,
Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those things where we like,
Speaker 1: we don't know who this guy actually is, so there
Speaker 1: is no way to know. And actually, actually, now that
Speaker 1: you mentioned it, in the case of the underwear in
Speaker 1: the in the throat, that definitely had to been done
Speaker 1: after the fact. It would have had to because obviously, yeah,
Speaker 1: she's not going to just sit there, Oh yeah, go
Speaker 1: ahead and cram that and then pack it in there
Speaker 1: with your thing. Yeah, she's not going to consent to
Speaker 1: that probably. Yeah. So that's why that's why there's a
Speaker 1: lot of questions about the that particular mode of death.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, And I mean, you know, the other
Speaker 1: part two is that there were no ligature marks, so
Speaker 1: they had to have been an obstruction of the airway. Um,
Speaker 1: so I guess the other thought is not all of
Speaker 1: them were found with their underwear shoved down their throats.
Speaker 1: So you know, how else does one strangle someone without
Speaker 1: like a tumarks? Yeah? Good question. Um, we really need
Speaker 1: to get off this line of topic. But the only
Speaker 1: other thing that I thought about is I'm trying to
Speaker 1: figure out what have been used in something akin to
Speaker 1: like a ball gag. I don't think so, because the
Speaker 1: the amount of tightness that you would have to achieve
Speaker 1: to actually strangle someone with a ball gag would likely
Speaker 1: like I don't mean the official the kind that you
Speaker 1: could buy, just some something like that that was used
Speaker 1: as a gag, is what I'm getting at. Why not
Speaker 1: a plunder or a super ball or something like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's something that's large enough to go in,
Speaker 1: but but that's I mean, that's but then you have
Speaker 1: to have a way to get it back out. I'm like,
Speaker 1: but let's move on. Yeah, just like a coin, yeah,
Speaker 1: or paddleball. Okay, So let's let's move on talk about
Speaker 1: the investigational level. Let's do that. The lead investigator in
Speaker 1: the case was Chief Superintendent of Scotland Yard at the time.
Speaker 1: That was John Durose. And it's reported that the investigative
Speaker 1: team interviewed seven thousand suspects. The population of London at
Speaker 1: the time was about eight million, so that's like almost
Speaker 1: one percent of the population of people almost it's a
Speaker 1: lot of people. It is. They really didn't like having
Speaker 1: to investigate this. They really didn't. So out of the
Speaker 1: seven thousand, they identified twenty actual suspects and then they
Speaker 1: have that and then finally um wild it down to
Speaker 1: three people they thought. Um. But Durose had a favorite suspect,
Speaker 1: and he talked about that in the media. UM, and
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that in the suspect slash theories. And
Speaker 1: one quick note to mention before we really get to
Speaker 1: from into theories splash suspects. UM. He is Kenneth Archibald.
Speaker 1: He was a fifty seven year old caretaker and he
Speaker 1: actually confessed to the murder of Irene Lockwood almost three
Speaker 1: weeks after um she was found. But his confession was
Speaker 1: pretty much dismissed because the police thought that there were
Speaker 1: a lot of inconsistencies with his version of the events. Um.
Speaker 1: And then also they found a third victim. They started
Speaker 1: to take him to trial. They did, and then they
Speaker 1: started and then they this other victim showed up, and
Speaker 1: then they actually listened to what he was saying and thought, wait,
Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense and totally dismissed it. Um, So
Speaker 1: we won't take him into serious consideration. But that's the
Speaker 1: sort of thing that you'll you'll see around Uh. And
Speaker 1: then I get the other I like, I don't understand
Speaker 1: the mindset of that, really confess the crimes you didn't commit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: especially when like that. It's not as though I don't
Speaker 1: It's not my understanding that police like looked at him
Speaker 1: and they were like, oh, it was definitely you, and
Speaker 1: pressured him into a confession. It was my impression that
Speaker 1: he just kind of came forward. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of people who do that, and there is a myriad
Speaker 1: of reasons that they confess, whether it be too you know,
Speaker 1: because they have some mental affliction that they've convinced themselves,
Speaker 1: or they just want the attention, or they want a
Speaker 1: place with three squares and a warm blanket. He was
Speaker 1: a caretaker I mean he needed a job. Well, but man,
Speaker 1: maybe he didn't like his job and this was easier,
Speaker 1: you know, going and sitting in the pokey is much easier.
Speaker 1: It's a serial killer, actually, it turns out no, because
Speaker 1: if you're over sixteen, you get convicted of like more
Speaker 1: than two murders, you get put to death. Yeah written
Speaker 1: not today and not today, but don't kill anybody. And
Speaker 1: sixties they're still a hangman noose. Yeah, they still kill people.
Speaker 1: As it is possible that this guy actually did kill her, Okay,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's possible. He also could have been
Speaker 1: one of her John's and in some add some connection tour,
Speaker 1: but again is pure speculation. Absolutely. The point is he's
Speaker 1: not responsible. No, he's definitely not. I know I said
Speaker 1: it before, but the key to being a good murderers
Speaker 1: to go around confessing the murders you didn't commit and
Speaker 1: then tell you just developed this reputation as a crank,
Speaker 1: you know, and then and then go on the spree
Speaker 1: and and I go kill us, and then go kill
Speaker 1: somebody and confess to it, and they'll just roll their
Speaker 1: eyes and show you the door. Yeah, oh this guy again,
Speaker 1: yea is Joe again? Actually pretty soon they get fed
Speaker 1: up and they just throw me in the pokey for
Speaker 1: one of the murders. Sin. So I don't care if
Speaker 1: you committed it or not. Now, yeah, I'm sure that
Speaker 1: there would be some crime they would convict you of,
Speaker 1: if nothing else, of obstruction of justice or something some
Speaker 1: random old school law of getting in the way. Okay, So, uh, theories,
Speaker 1: suspects everything. Yeah, I mean there's like seven thousand suspects.
Speaker 1: So we better get started. I mean, you know where,
Speaker 1: like minutes into the show. Yeah, you better settle in, folks,
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom, get yourself another drink. Alright, seven
Speaker 1: thousand you guys, ready, Yeah, just kidding, I have the stadium, pal,
Speaker 1: I'm ready. All right. So let's start with Chief Inspector
Speaker 1: de Rose's favorite, who he called Big John. His name
Speaker 1: not his real name, No, actually, not like nothing to
Speaker 1: do with his real name at all. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: that the name John is in reference to being a john.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably true. Big John's real name was
Speaker 1: Mungo Ireland. Drose revealed that Ireland had been identified as
Speaker 1: a suspect shortly after the murder of Bridget O'Hara. The
Speaker 1: paint flex that were similar to those found on most
Speaker 1: of the bodies were found on Mr Ireland. I believe
Speaker 1: that he was actually the security guard for at that
Speaker 1: painting facility garage. What I read is that he actually
Speaker 1: was a security guard who drove around in a van
Speaker 1: and checked on various businesses from Sorry, so I should
Speaker 1: have clarified that he was a security guard for many
Speaker 1: of these places, including the place with it. And also
Speaker 1: he kept his car in a garage to shift wet.
Speaker 1: It was n PM to six am, if I recall right, shifts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and apparently all all of these women disappeared between
Speaker 1: eleven eleven PM and one am, and their bodies were
Speaker 1: dumped between five and six am. That's one reason he
Speaker 1: looked really good as a suspect, and because he had
Speaker 1: access to a lot of the places and it was
Speaker 1: kind of on his beat. And there was the interview
Speaker 1: that from that book what was the book called Jack
Speaker 1: the Jack the Jumper, Jack the Jumper, And there was
Speaker 1: that interview with Ireland. Yeah, um where he taught I
Speaker 1: mean he had a car. Um. One of the places
Speaker 1: that he did security was that garage that the name
Speaker 1: is escaping me. I'm really sorry I've ever described Oh see,
Speaker 1: you get the windy autos. Yeah, that was like also
Speaker 1: a club kind of Maybe. I don't think it was
Speaker 1: really a club, but I think certain I think certain
Speaker 1: activities went on and there at the time. They did.
Speaker 1: Actually that's some of the people that worked there actually
Speaker 1: were known to go back there with prostitutes at least once. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So it was of a shady business. And he admitted
Speaker 1: to having connections there and being friends with some of
Speaker 1: the people who owned it maybe or he I think
Speaker 1: he said he had gone around for tea every once
Speaker 1: in a while or something. Yeah, and then I think
Speaker 1: some of the other stuff is that besides the paint
Speaker 1: flakes and all that stuff is According to the polices,
Speaker 1: his car's registration number was among those that we're seeing
Speaker 1: by the police in the area where the murder picked
Speaker 1: up as victims because they had been they had been
Speaker 1: putting up roadblocks. Yeah, because there's only a certain number
Speaker 1: of roads that went in and out of the area
Speaker 1: that the bodies were showing up sleep. They were counting
Speaker 1: cars coming in and out, recording them. And if you
Speaker 1: went in and out, you know, went in and came
Speaker 1: back out over a certain timeframe at night, they put
Speaker 1: you on a red list, which is I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it's that one's hard because he was a security guard.
Speaker 1: He did technically have legitimate business and that's what his
Speaker 1: job was. But also that's suspicious, I guess. But the
Speaker 1: you know, the thing that I want to point out
Speaker 1: the Joe brought up is that, Okay, well, we believe
Speaker 1: that the that the women were picked up between a
Speaker 1: certain amount of time, and that the bodies tended to
Speaker 1: be dumped around a certain amount of time. But that's
Speaker 1: that's really thin. Okay, they are working the streets at night,
Speaker 1: so we know they're picked up at night, but they
Speaker 1: could the bodies could have been dropped in a number
Speaker 1: of these locations at midnight or five in the morning.
Speaker 1: So that's that's but that that's one of the things
Speaker 1: that they used to tie it to Ireland and to
Speaker 1: uh not John Mango. And I was about calling John early,
Speaker 1: which is wrong, big John Mungo Ireland. So to Mango
Speaker 1: is that because of this time frame, But that's that's
Speaker 1: really not all that strong. Well to think about it
Speaker 1: is is uh Mango is a really good suspect, and
Speaker 1: that's why John do Rose, you know, was convinced it
Speaker 1: was because also because after his suicide, the killing stopped.
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, but anyway, but yeah, they were never actually
Speaker 1: conclusively able to tie the murders to him at all.
Speaker 1: I mean, they were never able to prove a thing. Yeah. Okay, wait,
Speaker 1: let's talk about a suicide. Yeah, let's talk about a suicide.
Speaker 1: Um right. I don't have an exact date, Okay, I
Speaker 1: was gonna ask if you found that because I never could.
Speaker 1: And you know, I mostly see it as right after
Speaker 1: the discovery of Bridget O'Hare's body, but then I O
Speaker 1: other places see it right before the discovery of Bridget
Speaker 1: O'Hair's body. So I don't know. I heard that it
Speaker 1: was actually the precipitating event for it was that they
Speaker 1: had been making the police have apparently been making some inquiries,
Speaker 1: and apparently they had examined the garage where he kept
Speaker 1: his car or van or whatever and found all those
Speaker 1: things you know, like cold dust, you know, and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, like they found because he went through the
Speaker 1: place where they believed it was all originating from. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so when he apparently found out that they had
Speaker 1: been to that garage and made a made a very
Speaker 1: minute examination of it, when he found that out, he
Speaker 1: realized that it was kind of near the end for him.
Speaker 1: But I mean, the thing is that it's all speculation.
Speaker 1: His suicide note, I will read what it said specific.
Speaker 1: It was not specific at all, and it is it's
Speaker 1: total speculation that we're just foisting on this guy. Um,
Speaker 1: his suicide note to his wife. Um, he actually okay,
Speaker 1: So he committed suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning. He sat
Speaker 1: in the garage with a window down on the car
Speaker 1: going and he said, quote, I can't stick it any longer.
Speaker 1: To save you in the police looking for me, I'll
Speaker 1: be in the garage unquote. And actually, one of the
Speaker 1: other big issues with the idea that it was maybe
Speaker 1: Ireland is that they actually thought that maybe he was
Speaker 1: in Scotland when Bridget O'Hara was being murdered, not actually
Speaker 1: in London, which that would obviously be a problem. That
Speaker 1: would be a problem. Yeah, that's a big issue again
Speaker 1: according to Jack that Jack the jumper, and I was
Speaker 1: not saying this guy's own initiation, but apparently the police
Speaker 1: police inquiries had established that he was in London during
Speaker 1: every period when somebody was murdered. Yeah, again, it's hard
Speaker 1: to tell. They never they were never able to question
Speaker 1: him because he killed himself before they were able to
Speaker 1: question him. And except for that one small interview, as
Speaker 1: we said before that we also don't know exactly when
Speaker 1: they disappear. So maybe the guy, you know, the guy,
Speaker 1: the author of Jack the Jumper, decided, well, this person
Speaker 1: had to have been kidnapped beforehand. I means it's I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess the other There's always with all these serial murders,
Speaker 1: it's always possible that at least one or two of
Speaker 1: them are the work of a copycat, especially with one
Speaker 1: that was so it's they weren't exactly withholding details in
Speaker 1: the press about this and how all the women were murdered.
Speaker 1: So it's it's certainly possible that you know, Ireland was
Speaker 1: responsible for some of them and not all of them
Speaker 1: or or whatever. But he he was the chief chief inspector,
Speaker 1: chief superintendence Drows, he was his favorite suspect. Then he's
Speaker 1: a good suspect. It must admit that since far from proven. Okay, alright, okay,
Speaker 1: Freddy Mills, Um, do you guys know who Freddy knows us? Now? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Freddy Mills was the world light heavyweight champion in boxing
Speaker 1: from eight to nineteen fifty. I guess I didn't realize
Speaker 1: that light heavyweight was a thing. Was confused. I looked
Speaker 1: it up, actually looked it up, and it's it's the
Speaker 1: lightest division of the heavyweight. I understand it. So I
Speaker 1: think it's it's a hundred and fifty to a hundred
Speaker 1: and seventy pounds or something. How many stones is that?
Speaker 1: That's like seven at least at least two hundred stones?
Speaker 1: How big the Yeah, I don't know what are they pebbles?
Speaker 1: Are they like giant things? I don't know? Antique British
Speaker 1: weight system? Sorry? Um, So he was. He was a
Speaker 1: pretty prominent figure at the time. You know, he was
Speaker 1: the boxing champion, World boxing champion. He owned a club
Speaker 1: that had previously been a restaurant in case anybody's going
Speaker 1: to freak out about that, and he actually began acting
Speaker 1: a little bit too. He hosted some TV shows. He
Speaker 1: was he was kind of an up and coming he um.
Speaker 1: He did some walk ons. He you know, he was
Speaker 1: kind of he was just doing his thing. You're similar
Speaker 1: to say Donald O. J. Simpson in the at the
Speaker 1: end of his foot well career started coming on. He
Speaker 1: made a couple of movies, made a couple of movies
Speaker 1: and TV shows. I would say more like Dwayne the
Speaker 1: Rock Johnson and then and then yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 1: Well but he actually made it well yeah, yeah, differently
Speaker 1: o J. And then o J got Frank for Murder
Speaker 1: by the LP. Do you remember that. I definitely haven't
Speaker 1: found anything from his house recently or anything like by
Speaker 1: the time this episode comes out, that's gonna be old news.
Speaker 1: And it was deep. Yeah. The nightclub that he owned
Speaker 1: was frequented by some fairly seedy people, most notably the
Speaker 1: Kray Twins were Ronnie and Reggie and I actually, um
Speaker 1: wasted a stupid amount of time doing some research on them.
Speaker 1: They're super interesting, could even be a subject of their
Speaker 1: own podcast. Maybe there are some unsolved mysteries around the twins.
Speaker 1: I can't remember. Their name is definitely familiar. Yeah, they're
Speaker 1: very familiar. And there's a movie that came out recently
Speaker 1: about there is. Yeah. And actually we literally just got
Speaker 1: a suggestion today about somebody who was like, I was
Speaker 1: doing some research on the Kray twins, and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, it's crazy. Um, and I guess if you
Speaker 1: have again, without going too far into it. I guess
Speaker 1: I would say they were like twin al capones. They
Speaker 1: were famous for gangsters, you know, that was like their thing.
Speaker 1: They were the beginnings of organized crime in Britain. Britain,
Speaker 1: if they were the beginnings of it, well they were.
Speaker 1: They were the ones who are the best in organization
Speaker 1: in terms of like their act. They weren't just running
Speaker 1: together and they were all over the place. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: were like anyway, Freddie was friends quote unquote with the
Speaker 1: Cray Twins kind of and things kind of predictably went downhill.
Speaker 1: It's reported that he suffered from headaches later in his
Speaker 1: boxing career that continued on after he quit not shocking
Speaker 1: who get hit a lot in the head and face. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know why that might happen. But he was
Speaker 1: really in debt to his quote unquote friends, the craze, uh,
Speaker 1: and that of his family. He had a wife and
Speaker 1: two daughters. So Freddie Mills committed suicide, which seems accepted,
Speaker 1: but you say that as if we don't know if
Speaker 1: he really did it himself or without help or so.
Speaker 1: It's hard for me because and again I didn't like
Speaker 1: research too much because I didn't want this show to
Speaker 1: be about the suicide on Freddy Mills. But uh, he
Speaker 1: went out back of his club to take a nap
Speaker 1: in the car, which he did a lot apparently. And
Speaker 1: also he had been borrowing a not working rifle from
Speaker 1: a friend. Uh that got repaired apparently, so it was
Speaker 1: working and it was found outside of his car, and
Speaker 1: the police said, oh, no, this gunshot wound is consistent
Speaker 1: with a self inflicted wound from this rifle. But without
Speaker 1: reading too much into it, I don't. I'm not satisfied
Speaker 1: by that. I have no idea. Like I said, I
Speaker 1: didn't do that much research and focus, isn't it. But
Speaker 1: it was my general impression that I did not off
Speaker 1: handedly immediately accepted that it was a suicide. But the
Speaker 1: reading of all of the research that I did didn't
Speaker 1: necessarily explicitly say like a contested suicide. They just said
Speaker 1: committed suicide. Okay, So why why is Freddie on this list? Yeah? Well,
Speaker 1: if you stop interrupting me, I tell you come on. Yeah, jeez,
Speaker 1: as you're blathering on a rifle. So it actually wasn't.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't until after his death in nineteen five
Speaker 1: that these negative rumors started to circulate about him. There
Speaker 1: were a lot of negative rumors that started to circulate
Speaker 1: about him, but a lot of them actually were kind
Speaker 1: of collected in this book that came out in two
Speaker 1: thousand two about Freddie exclusively, or about the craze, or
Speaker 1: about it was about Freddy. Um, well, I was it
Speaker 1: was actually it's about Jack the stripper, but it was
Speaker 1: the one to like make the connection to say that
Speaker 1: they thought maybe it was Freddy. But I have a
Speaker 1: lot of problems with this. But to to say some
Speaker 1: of the allegations, one of the allegations was that Freddie
Speaker 1: had been actually in a homosexual relationship with Ronnie Cray.
Speaker 1: Not think there's anything wrong with that, not that who
Speaker 1: was openly bisexual, Not that there's anything wrong with that,
Speaker 1: but it would add a layer of complexity to that relationship,
Speaker 1: especially in that time frame it was. It also started
Speaker 1: to be rumored that Freddie had killed eight women and
Speaker 1: that he was about to be exposed as a stripper,
Speaker 1: so he killed himself instead. But this all comes from
Speaker 1: this one book from two thousand too, and it doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like there's any historic research to back at. It
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like anybody thought that that was a thing.
Speaker 1: I have a question eight women. Is it the eight
Speaker 1: women in question for the Jack the Stripper or is
Speaker 1: this a separate It's just it's just an amorphous. So
Speaker 1: the report was that the craze said that Freddie had
Speaker 1: told them that he had killed eight women, and the
Speaker 1: author of this two thousand two books said, so, obviously
Speaker 1: that must have been these eight women, and of course
Speaker 1: he died. Stuff. But still I say, I I agree. Uh.
Speaker 1: And you know the other thing too, is that I,
Speaker 1: in my reading about Freddie, though he had a brutal
Speaker 1: profession of boxing, I did not get the impression that
Speaker 1: he was overly brutal outside of the boxing ring. It
Speaker 1: didn't see and it also didn't even seem like his
Speaker 1: boxing technique was that brutal. So I don't. I didn't
Speaker 1: get the sense that he was really prone to violence,
Speaker 1: So I don't. I just don't buy it. Well, the
Speaker 1: thing about it is is the Jack the Stripper was
Speaker 1: a guy that had some weird sexual predilections. Well, but
Speaker 1: so I think that's the reason that I bring up
Speaker 1: the whole homosexual thing is that if you're you know,
Speaker 1: there's that commonly said thing where if you're trying to
Speaker 1: suppress a part of you. It will come out in
Speaker 1: these like really weird, messed up ways. I don't buy it,
Speaker 1: especially if he was in a homosexual relationship with someone.
Speaker 1: He's not denying it, he's in a relationship with someone.
Speaker 1: But the point if it's outside of marriage, the point
Speaker 1: that I'm making is that if you have violent, kinky
Speaker 1: sexual predilections, and if you're a guy who wants a nightclubs,
Speaker 1: a famous boxer and a celebt pritty, you're gonna get
Speaker 1: a lot of you know what with women. Yeah, probably
Speaker 1: there's gonna be people coming in who would be happy
Speaker 1: to satisfy your desires. While it's not just that, but
Speaker 1: also at some point if somebody made these allegations and
Speaker 1: some of somebody, some some women or another going to
Speaker 1: come up come out and say, yeah, yeah, he tried
Speaker 1: to ram it down my throat and choked me to
Speaker 1: death one time. I had to had to grab his
Speaker 1: knowledge and squeeze him as hard as I could to
Speaker 1: get into back away. You're gonna get people like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you had a part election for sexual violence, then
Speaker 1: you know there would be also I mean you think
Speaker 1: that his wife probably would have brought it up. Yes,
Speaker 1: you think I mean, after his death, she probably would
Speaker 1: have said, yeah, he was kind of horrible. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: there's no I mean, there's no fear of retribution at
Speaker 1: that point. I'm going to disagree with that, because there
Speaker 1: are there there are many, many examples of people who
Speaker 1: after an unhappy relationship has ended tragically, and in this example,
Speaker 1: he's killed himself supposedly even and though he may have
Speaker 1: been a bit of a bastard, it was I'm going
Speaker 1: to protect his legacy because suddenly that's the only thing
Speaker 1: I have to cling to. And I've convinced myself that
Speaker 1: that's the right thing to you. I mean, if you've
Speaker 1: got kids, you know, especially for people, especially for their children.
Speaker 1: So she may not have just turned around and said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: he had this thing about my uvula. You know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't like that you keep going back to the uvula.
Speaker 1: I like, I figured out what it was a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, Like you need a month ago. You
Speaker 1: thought that was something down here, right now it's up here.
Speaker 1: It's a far side coming that I figured out what
Speaker 1: it was from. Yeah, let's go ahead and move off.
Speaker 1: Next suspect. Next suspect, I actually think this is this
Speaker 1: guy looks like my favorite suspect, your favorite as in
Speaker 1: like I like him for the crime, not I like
Speaker 1: him as a person, or think he has any reading
Speaker 1: You don't want his trading card. No, this is Harold Jones.
Speaker 1: Listeners who are into true crime may be familiar with
Speaker 1: Harold Jones given that he was a convicted murderer at
Speaker 1: the age of fifteen. Yeah, he and he is another
Speaker 1: one that could have an entire episode on him if
Speaker 1: this were true crime, not on Solved Mysteries. Jones was
Speaker 1: convicted of rape and murder at fifteen. His victims were
Speaker 1: eight and eleven years old. Yeah, and he served at
Speaker 1: quote his Majesty's pleasure unquote from nineteen twenty one till
Speaker 1: nineteen forty one when he was released. There was a
Speaker 1: king at the time. There's a bit of a thing here,
Speaker 1: and that he confessed to his crimes like just before
Speaker 1: he turned sixteen, Because it turns out in the twenties,
Speaker 1: the teens in England, if he had been sixteen instead
Speaker 1: of fifteen when he was convicted of the murders, he
Speaker 1: would have been hanged. Likely not it's not a hundred percent,
Speaker 1: but it's very likely that he would have been hanged instead.
Speaker 1: Of just been twenty years in jail, So smart thing
Speaker 1: to do. But that if I had been in his
Speaker 1: position of authority back then, I would have I would
Speaker 1: have just quietly arranged to have his his birth certificate modified,
Speaker 1: or just you know, find a reason to put the
Speaker 1: trial off for a little while. Yeah, we got a continuance.
Speaker 1: What is that? It's this thing I'm using to delay
Speaker 1: things shut off. I'm making it up. But it's a
Speaker 1: really cool thing. You're gonna love it. Yeah. So Jones
Speaker 1: lived until in nineteen seventy one, and I believe so
Speaker 1: he was alive. Um and I believe living in London
Speaker 1: at the time of the stripper murder. Believed that he was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's not again, they're not good records really. Apparently he
Speaker 1: had a wife and children. He did marry. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: he was a really brutal child. He raped and murdered
Speaker 1: and strangled, actually raped and strangled two young girls. And granted,
Speaker 1: you know he was young at the time too, but
Speaker 1: eight and eleven is still pretty young when you are fifteen,
Speaker 1: i'd say, so. Um so yeah, I mean the only
Speaker 1: problem that I actually the biggest problem I have with
Speaker 1: this is he's another one that like in two thousands seven,
Speaker 1: somebody said, hey, hey, I bet actually Harold Jones has
Speaker 1: something to do with those with the with the jack
Speaker 1: the stripper murders. I mean it does. It would be
Speaker 1: reasonable to me to assume that he could have easily
Speaker 1: been the person who did them. But except no evidence,
Speaker 1: have you ever seen any kind of physical descriptions or
Speaker 1: personality descriptions from him? I what I found was very
Speaker 1: very vague, okay, because I can. The reason that I
Speaker 1: asked that is, if somebody does something that brutal at
Speaker 1: that young of an age, they would continue with brutal behavior.
Speaker 1: And I almost wonder if it's a situation where either
Speaker 1: he's falsely he was falsely accused and convicted, or it
Speaker 1: wasn't also unheard of for people who had some um
Speaker 1: who is let's say, develop developmentally delayed or or stunted.
Speaker 1: You know, he may be young, he may have been
Speaker 1: the same age mentally as these girls, and so he
Speaker 1: may or may not have been involved. And then he's
Speaker 1: an adult, so he's still a child as an adult,
Speaker 1: so he's not going to be prone to that same
Speaker 1: kind of behavior. I mean, this happens, it does he
Speaker 1: that was not his case. He was, um, he lured
Speaker 1: these girls because he worked in a shop as a
Speaker 1: fifteen year old and they were visiting the store and
Speaker 1: he lurned them away. He there's I haven't read anything
Speaker 1: about and I did actually read a fair amount about
Speaker 1: him because I have this huge morbid curiosity. Okay, So
Speaker 1: that's why I was asking about because I didn't find
Speaker 1: a whole lot. But I didn't. I didn't. I kind
Speaker 1: of disregarded him just because of when he was brought up,
Speaker 1: and I was just suddenly curious about that. Okay, So
Speaker 1: that was what I'm going on. Was not the case
Speaker 1: at all. Okay, So this is Harold Jones, ye, and
Speaker 1: this is Jack remember picture, But the drawing is like
Speaker 1: you can't I mean, can I see the picture of
Speaker 1: Harold Jones again? It's it's a pencil drawing that is
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but any British literally, any white, any jolly
Speaker 1: cheeky feature at all. So it's it's hard to tell. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm inclined to say that at that point in time
Speaker 1: he was kind of nearing the end of his life
Speaker 1: because when was he born nineteen well, he was fourteen
Speaker 1: and or he was fifteen in ninety one, Okay, I
Speaker 1: think it was not. Oh nine, yes, I guess it
Speaker 1: still would have been young enough somebody, you know and
Speaker 1: all that. Yeah, But like I said, since he wasn't
Speaker 1: brought up as a suspect until like two thousand and seven,
Speaker 1: that feels so much like this thing. We see a
Speaker 1: lot that we try to cut through where it's somebody saying,
Speaker 1: like trying to make a big revelation. You know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not only I made a book, but
Speaker 1: it's you know, oh god, this guy lived in kind
Speaker 1: of the same area and was convicted of things that
Speaker 1: were kind of similar. So yeah, my god, it could
Speaker 1: be him. It's probably him, and I saw somebody. That's
Speaker 1: hard for me. I saw somebody and read it claiming
Speaker 1: that several of the bodies were found within a couple
Speaker 1: of blocks of where he lived in London. I have
Speaker 1: no idea how anyone would know that. It's it's absolutely
Speaker 1: not true, because if you look at the maps of
Speaker 1: where the bodies, they're not even found within a couple
Speaker 1: of blocks of each other. The two, yeah, the two
Speaker 1: bodies that were closest to each other were found a
Speaker 1: mile and a half apart. Yeah, yeah, those were the
Speaker 1: closest ones and so yeah, there's no way that more
Speaker 1: than one body was found a few blocks from his house. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's all the suspects. I know there are some
Speaker 1: other suspects that I have willfully ignored. Yeah, well I'll
Speaker 1: talk about one if you don't mind. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: There was a detective superintendent in William Baldock who really
Speaker 1: didn't like do Roses theory about the security guard Margo. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he his his belief that it was a former London
Speaker 1: policeman who committed the murders. Yeah, I didn't like this
Speaker 1: theory very much. But let me let me just let
Speaker 1: me spell it out just a little, just a little
Speaker 1: bit why he liked it so much. Um So, this guy,
Speaker 1: we gotta call him, what are we gonna call him?
Speaker 1: Officer Jones? Let's call him that. How about Jack? Officer Jack?
Speaker 1: Officer Jack? Okay, Officer Jack was a cop, but he
Speaker 1: was not that well liked by his co workers. Apparently
Speaker 1: a lot of them felt that they didn't really trust him,
Speaker 1: and he sort of turns out he wasn't that trustworthy
Speaker 1: because eventually you got arrested for committing a series of
Speaker 1: burglaries and he was eventually, of course, convicted, sentenced to
Speaker 1: a year, and of course he was booted off the
Speaker 1: police force in London. Yeah, yeah, yeah, shocking yeah, so
Speaker 1: um okay, he got he got out of prison after
Speaker 1: he served a year and got out in June nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty three. He took a job as a car salesman. Um.
Speaker 1: And the reason Baldock started liking this guy nobody trusted
Speaker 1: a car salesman exactly. That's a good reason. This guy
Speaker 1: was a smooth talker. He was especially good with women,
Speaker 1: It's actually true. But Baldock was looking at a map
Speaker 1: and he noticed that the bodies were being dumped in
Speaker 1: different police subdivisions in London. Five out of the six
Speaker 1: bodies were dumped in subdivisions that that officer Jack had
Speaker 1: worked in. And there are there are many many subdivision
Speaker 1: police subdivisions in London. Yeah, and so five out of
Speaker 1: the six and and number six, Irene Lockwood was found
Speaker 1: in the Bank of the Thames and and may have
Speaker 1: actually been dumped in one where this guy used to
Speaker 1: work and drifted there from somewhere else anyway. So this guy,
Speaker 1: as I said, was sentenced to a year in prison
Speaker 1: and at his at his trial, He said that he
Speaker 1: committed the crimes not so much because he wanted to steal,
Speaker 1: but because he liked the idea of doing something that
Speaker 1: his fellow cops would have to work on but would
Speaker 1: not be able to solve. So he felt better than them. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and just just to just to frustrate them, because he
Speaker 1: felt like, you know, you know, I guess he felt
Speaker 1: a little that he'd been mistreated or something like that,
Speaker 1: and so he thought he'd screw them, you know. And
Speaker 1: so that's another reason why Baldoc thought that this guy
Speaker 1: was a good fit for the murders. But again that's
Speaker 1: just his theory and there's no proof whatsoever. And of
Speaker 1: course he was never able to actually name this guy's
Speaker 1: name actually, as opposed to Mango Irish, so we won't
Speaker 1: know who he is Irish, Mango Ireland, but anyway, he
Speaker 1: wasn't Irish. But I thought it was an interesting theory
Speaker 1: and at least worth mentioning, even though well, you know
Speaker 1: that that's the frustration with this one, right is it.
Speaker 1: I feel like we hit this point with a lot
Speaker 1: of these cases where we think London is a big town,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people. One percent of the population
Speaker 1: could have done it. I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm
Speaker 1: sorry to tell everyone. I don't know. Yeah, I have
Speaker 1: no idea. No, I don't either. Yeah, we'll never know.
Speaker 1: I think it was some guy named Jack. That's all
Speaker 1: we know. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you want to
Speaker 1: see some of the research that we've done, um, or
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Speaker 1: Did I get? Did I forget anything? I'm not holding
Speaker 1: a list though, Yeah, well I'm not either, because I
Speaker 1: don't need it anymore. Alright, well, Joe, why did you
Speaker 1: write it? I think it was her. Right on that note,
Speaker 1: we're going to get out of here, so talk to
Speaker 1: you guys next week or maybe tomorrow, who knows. Okay, bye,
Speaker 1: bye everybody, Let's sit down to the strip. Okay, bye,