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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by a phone

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Speaker 1: box at the top of the ladder. Instead, it's supported

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Speaker 1: by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon. Visit

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Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more. Thanks

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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't think stories of things. We simply

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Speaker 1: don't know the answer too. Hey guys, welcome to another

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. I'm Joe, as always,

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Speaker 1: joined by and Steve, who doesn't get to change his

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Speaker 1: name apparent. Sorry, sorry, just kidding, I'm actually Devon. That's

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Speaker 1: Joe and that's Steve. Confused. Uh, this week we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about a murderous series of a serial of murders,

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Speaker 1: if you will. We've we've done Jack the Ripper, we

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Speaker 1: did the Atlanta Ripper. Now we're going to do Jack

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Speaker 1: the Stripper. This is not Jack the stripper that you

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Speaker 1: throw at the dollar bills. That's not like kind of stripper.

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Speaker 1: It's like actually the opposite of the fun, sexy way

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Speaker 1: of stripper. Yeah, there's nothing fun or sexy about this

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Speaker 1: old I would agree. Yeah, um, it's all this. This

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Speaker 1: case is also often referred to as the Naked Murders,

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Speaker 1: or sometimes the Hammersmith murders and it was suggested originally

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Speaker 1: by Emily. Thanks Emily. These murders took place between nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty four and nineteen sixty five in London, England. Jack

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Speaker 1: the Stripper we're just gonna call him Jack, you know,

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Speaker 1: friendly terms. Sorry. Um, he was the alleged perpetrator of six,

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Speaker 1: maybe eight murders in London, as we said, uh, kind

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Speaker 1: of in the same little area. Yeah, they were in

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Speaker 1: the same same district. Yeah, same district area. And um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: his modus operandi was similar to Jack the Ripper. You didn't, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, carve them open. He did not carve them open, No,

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Speaker 1: but they did help kind of lean him towards the

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Speaker 1: name with Jack the Stripper, that's one of that was

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Speaker 1: one of the comparisons there. It's easy to We've talked

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Speaker 1: about this off off the Bike before, is that it's

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Speaker 1: it's very funny to me that everybody becomes a Jack

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Speaker 1: as soon as they killed at least three hookers, maybe two,

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Speaker 1: and then immediately that designation gets thrown out. Yes, they

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Speaker 1: are prostitutes, not sex prostitutes. Prostitutes. We don't want to

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Speaker 1: offend anyone. No, Jack did murder prostitutes. Only their naked

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Speaker 1: bodies were found around London or in the Thames. Quick note,

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Speaker 1: I'm apparently only doing mysteries in London now, so that

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Speaker 1: everybody can be annoyed at how I pronouncing, So everybod

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Speaker 1: he's ready special. And then also as a quick note,

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Speaker 1: if you haven't already realized, this is gonna be one

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Speaker 1: of those shows that if you have any issues with

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Speaker 1: sexual trauma or anything like that, or the kids around,

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Speaker 1: maybe this is not the one because we're gonna start

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Speaker 1: talking about details. Also, if you're squeamish, this might not

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Speaker 1: be the one either. It's not it's not really a

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Speaker 1: scory as a lot of ones we talked, but there's

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Speaker 1: a lot more kind of potential for actual triggers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this is the This is more cerebral instead of

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Speaker 1: slash slash, slash, bloody, bloody, bloody. There's these are things

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Speaker 1: that you start thinking about, some folks, So please be aware. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: did you turn off nod? Okay, you guys ready, let's

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Speaker 1: start talking about this. So Jack killed his victims by asphyxiation,

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Speaker 1: but it was kind of a unique form of asphyxiation.

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Speaker 1: Was basically he strangled his victims by forcing them to

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Speaker 1: perform very deep throat filatio. You. Yeah. It's victims were

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Speaker 1: found without their underwear, often until it was discovered like

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Speaker 1: deep in their throats as gags. Um. Not all of

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Speaker 1: the victims, but more than one of the victims their

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Speaker 1: underwear was found her underwear the very deep in their throat,

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Speaker 1: and they were often missing front teeth, just one or two,

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Speaker 1: but still missing front teeth. Uh. And as with most

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Speaker 1: serial killers, the episodes that we do about serial killers,

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Speaker 1: we're just gonna like run through the victims here real quick.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do all eight in order of discovery, even

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Speaker 1: though you usually see the six that they call confirmed

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Speaker 1: and then the two at the end, even though actually

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Speaker 1: one of the unconfirmed ones is was discovered before. So

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do them in chronologic order instead. Cool

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Speaker 1: with you, guys, Yeah, cool? Alright. First victim, unconfirmed victim

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Speaker 1: of Jack of Jack. I'm not sure that she was

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Speaker 1: actually part of the whole series. Yeah, I'm not sure either.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to tell. I Um was woman by the

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Speaker 1: name of Elizabeth Big. She was twenty one years old.

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Speaker 1: She was found dead on June seventeenth, nineteen fifty nine.

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Speaker 1: So a good five years before the actual serial murdering started.

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Speaker 1: She was found near the River Thames. Her death was

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Speaker 1: considered by some to bear a lot of similarities to

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Speaker 1: the other victims, namely the the location and the fact

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Speaker 1: that she was strangled today strangled right, yeah really and

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Speaker 1: that never happens ever, yeah never. So. The next victim,

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Speaker 1: which is the first official victim, was Hannah Talford. She

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Speaker 1: was thirty and she was found dead on February second,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, also near the River Thames. Are really

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Speaker 1: in kind of near on the shore, I thought, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was, yeah, so near the shore, Yeah, near the

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Speaker 1: shore in the water, yeah yeah, uh and it was

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Speaker 1: she was very close actually to the Hammersmith Bridge Um.

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Speaker 1: She had been strangled several of her teeth room saying,

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Speaker 1: and her underwear was forced down her throat really deep down.

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Speaker 1: That sounds unpleasant. Sounds really unpleasant. The next okay, so

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Speaker 1: all of the rest of the victims except for the

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Speaker 1: last one are official victims. So it's the first and

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Speaker 1: the last suspected but not okay. Yeah. Irene Lockwood was

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Speaker 1: the second official victim. She was twenty six. Her body

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Speaker 1: was found on April eighth, nineteen sixty four, also on

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Speaker 1: the river shore, not far from where Hannah was found. Um,

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Speaker 1: and that really made police think that, you know, oh gosh,

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Speaker 1: there's a serial killer on the loost. She was also

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Speaker 1: missing some teeth. She had also died of asphyxiation. Asphyxiation,

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Speaker 1: also found without underwear on. I know she's still had

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Speaker 1: her stockings on. I think she's the one that still

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Speaker 1: had her stockings. It was her. It was her, Hannah,

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Speaker 1: one of the two I remember. And they all would

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Speaker 1: have some maybe one or two little bits of clothing on.

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Speaker 1: Many of them were found with their stock things like

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Speaker 1: rolled down to their ankles, which is kind of weird

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Speaker 1: because they were also missing their panties and that's like

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Speaker 1: a very that's a hard transition to make, just the true. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: except for well, I guess in the sixties, it's possible

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Speaker 1: they were all still wearing Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say,

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Speaker 1: is that I think they were all talking, so there

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Speaker 1: is the ability for one to come off without dislodging

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Speaker 1: the other. Um. Now, I want to ask you real quick,

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Speaker 1: and I know that this will be important later on

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Speaker 1: in the story. Is she was so we were just

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Speaker 1: talking about Irene and she was found on the eighth,

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Speaker 1: but we don't know exactly when she disappeared, correct, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: many of the yeah, unless weeks. There's one one victim

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Speaker 1: that we know when she disappeared, or we think we

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Speaker 1: know when she disappeared. Again, like, there's actually not a

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Speaker 1: way to confirmed that this is when she disappeared. But um,

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Speaker 1: with with all the other victims, it's hard. You don't

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Speaker 1: really know when there were in missing because they weren't

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Speaker 1: really reported missing because they were prostitutes and that was

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Speaker 1: just kind of the sort of thing. I think most

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Speaker 1: of the people who knew these women just assumed they

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Speaker 1: moved on to other things. That's been what I mean.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have ever done any

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Speaker 1: reading on this, but that's one of the giant dangers

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Speaker 1: for people who are sex workers is that you don't

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Speaker 1: because of that lifestyle, you don't make any close bonds,

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Speaker 1: so therefore nobody knows if you're not around, and then

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Speaker 1: so nobody realizes you're gone. And there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: groups that are you know, working on things like that

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Speaker 1: to try to help that. But that's that's one of

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Speaker 1: the giant dangers, absolutely, yeah, and it's it's also possible

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Speaker 1: again that they might have just gone off for a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks to work a different part of town. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's but that's the whole thing is that

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Speaker 1: with this one exception, which I think is likely, we

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Speaker 1: do know when this person, when this girl disappeared. Um,

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Speaker 1: the rest of them, we don't really know. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: just know when their bodies were found. You've got and

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Speaker 1: they were all and we should say, it didn't look

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Speaker 1: like they had been floating for like weeks, you know,

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Speaker 1: it was they were relatively recently dumped and probably relatively

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Speaker 1: recently murder fresh body fresh bodies, not you know, like

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Speaker 1: crawling and gross, not in the water for weeks on end. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but but that is important to point out. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for bringing that up. Yeah, we don't know when they disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Next victim was Helen Barthelmy. She was twenty two. Um.

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Speaker 1: She was originally from Blackpool, if that interests anyone. She

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Speaker 1: was found dead on April ninety four, UM in an

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Speaker 1: alleyway in Brentford. And this actually was the so she

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Speaker 1: was the first one. I don't know if you've been

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Speaker 1: keeping track of this or not, but she was the

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Speaker 1: first body that wasn't found in the river or near

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Speaker 1: the water, so she was the first one where the

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Speaker 1: police could actually gather physical evidence that might have been

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Speaker 1: left behind by the killer. She was a yeah, which

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Speaker 1: obviously people find bodies and alleys much quicker because there

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Speaker 1: are people are going through there than they do on

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Speaker 1: the edge of the river bank. But also there was

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Speaker 1: no the water hadn't washed even Irene's body being on

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Speaker 1: the shore of the river. It was it was presumed

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Speaker 1: she was dumped in the river and then washed on shore,

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Speaker 1: so the water would have washed away any kind of

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Speaker 1: residue or anything like that, which was actually important because

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Speaker 1: Helen's body did actually have some interesting things on her um.

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Speaker 1: They found flex of paint used in motor car manufacturing

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Speaker 1: or like repainting um automobiles, and the source that I

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Speaker 1: that I found, they actually found cold dust on on

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Speaker 1: her body, and I think all the subsequent victims have

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Speaker 1: goun cold dust. They found red, black and white paint

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Speaker 1: flex or little droplets predominantly black, and I presume that's

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Speaker 1: why they came to the conclusion that it was involved

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Speaker 1: with cars, because back at this time cars in Britain

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Speaker 1: were primarily mostly black. Yeah, So yeah, Yeah, so they

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Speaker 1: found those flex um and the police felt that it

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Speaker 1: was you know, from the killer's workplace. They first they

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Speaker 1: started speculating that the killer was was actually like a

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Speaker 1: paint sprayer in the motor industry of some kind, whether

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Speaker 1: it be in a body shop or in manufacturing or whatever,

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Speaker 1: worked in a paint booth all day, Yeah, they thought,

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Speaker 1: and particularly pertaining to the auto industry. Well, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean there's that's the thing is that people may not

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Speaker 1: realize this, but certain applications re require certain kinds of paint,

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Speaker 1: and paint that you put on a car is very

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Speaker 1: specific because it's got to withstand the elements for a

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Speaker 1: long period of time. Very true. Yep. The next victim

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Speaker 1: was Mary Fleming. She was thirty originally from Scotland. She

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Speaker 1: was found in in the sitting position at the entrance

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Speaker 1: of a garage on July fourteenth in nineteen sixty four.

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Speaker 1: And it was a residence that the garage. It was

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Speaker 1: a residential garage. It wasn't like it was just some

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Speaker 1: random workplace. Yeah. And this was in Chiswick where the

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Speaker 1: police presence was actually the heaviest they were. They were

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Speaker 1: really heavily patrolling that area. Um, there were again paint

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Speaker 1: flex on her body and the coal dust um as well.

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Speaker 1: Locals reported that they thought they heard a vehicle backing

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Speaker 1: down the street just before the body was discovered, and

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Speaker 1: the police suspected it was a car obviously um, but

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Speaker 1: since nobody had seen it, they actually couldn't confirm that

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Speaker 1: it was a car. They thought it probably you know,

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Speaker 1: people said they thought it sounded like a car. I

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Speaker 1: am inclined to believe it probably was a car. I

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Speaker 1: am I am too. But what the weird thing about

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Speaker 1: a car backing away is when you get into residential

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Speaker 1: neighborhoods in London, the you know, the house, there's the

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Speaker 1: front sides and then the alleys have the backside with

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Speaker 1: the garages typically in my experience anyway, and those are

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Speaker 1: usually one way streets. So it's really weird that somebody

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Speaker 1: would be backing down it because that means they'd have

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Speaker 1: to back out into try afic. Well. I mean, granted

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Speaker 1: may have been super it was super early in the morning,

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Speaker 1: but it's still just not the thing that puzzles me

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Speaker 1: is how somebody could hear it and conclude that they

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Speaker 1: were backing up as opposed to just driving slowly forward.

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Speaker 1: Old cars you put them in reverse, and reverse always

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Speaker 1: had a high pitch wine. That's true, there was there

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Speaker 1: was always that really typical high pitch gear speed. It

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Speaker 1: would happen. That's why I think that people is like, oh,

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Speaker 1: somebody's backing up really fast. That's weird. Well, but I

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Speaker 1: almost wonder if if the killer was backing down the alley,

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Speaker 1: dropped the body and then pulled out so that it

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Speaker 1: would look normal, you know what I mean, like back

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Speaker 1: down the alley even though it's a one way, back

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Speaker 1: down the wrong way, so that they would pull out

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Speaker 1: into traffic the right way. You could have driven down

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Speaker 1: the alley the wrong way to begin with, andze, that's

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Speaker 1: happened to family. Yeah, yeah, no, no, but I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: he drives slowly down the alley the wrong way, it

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Speaker 1: dumps the body and continues on and people hearing them,

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Speaker 1: they hear him going and uh, and they concluded he

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Speaker 1: must be backing up, since otherwise that means he'll be

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Speaker 1: driving the wrong way down one way street. That's a

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Speaker 1: good points. Good point, although because nobody really saw it,

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Speaker 1: pretty tiny little clue anyway, so let's not worry about

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Speaker 1: it anymore. Yeah. Actually, so the next body that was found.

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Speaker 1: Francis Brown is the next victim, the one that we

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Speaker 1: find the most about. She was twenty one at the time,

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Speaker 1: and she was last seen by fellow prostitute and friend

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Speaker 1: Kim Taylor, and Kim last saw her on October twenty three,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, but Francis's body wasn't discovered until more

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Speaker 1: than a month later, November four. Lucky for investigators. Though,

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Speaker 1: Kim thought that she had seen the man that Francis

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Speaker 1: was picked up by, and she thought that that was

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Speaker 1: the last She thought that was Jack. Basically, she thought

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Speaker 1: that was probably the last person that Francis had ever

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Speaker 1: seen for whatever reason. And they got a sketch of

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Speaker 1: that person. They got an identicate, which was a really

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Speaker 1: terrible sketch, really really very I wouldn't say terrible, very

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Speaker 1: generic um. But they also got a description of the car.

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Speaker 1: They thought the car was either a Ford Zephyr or Zodiac,

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Speaker 1: neither of which we have in America. We didn't they

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Speaker 1: were a British. They were a Ford of Britain. Only

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Speaker 1: I was curious, so I looked it up. They shipped

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Speaker 1: some of them to the US kind of a novelty

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Speaker 1: basis but they were, and they didn't have you know,

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Speaker 1: it's funny is that a lot of cars have a

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Speaker 1: international companion, so there's one for one name here and

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Speaker 1: one name there. This car didn't appear to be They

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Speaker 1: look very British, these cars, and they look very little

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Speaker 1: squad round fenders. Yeah that I didn't They also to

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Speaker 1: make these in Australia. Uh No, I don't, No, well

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Speaker 1: I don't. I didn't see anything about this particular line

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Speaker 1: being in Australia, but it could have been. I just

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Speaker 1: didn't see any they were. They were UK. Only somebody's

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Speaker 1: now thinking that Dr Bogol and Mrs Chandler had one

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Speaker 1: or something like that, you know. But the thing is

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Speaker 1: is because the car lines would be used in one

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Speaker 1: country only, they could take the name, and they did

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Speaker 1: sometimes put them under places. I'm pretty sure that the

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Speaker 1: Zephyr actually got used in the States like five or

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Speaker 1: eight years later on a different line. It was like

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Speaker 1: a model for a very brief time, so they could

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Speaker 1: they would hop from continent to continent that way. But

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Speaker 1: it's a weird thing that they get away with. There

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Speaker 1: was there was, Yeah, there was definitely a Zephyr I

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Speaker 1: think made in the us, but it didn't look anything

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Speaker 1: like the British one. No, no, And it was the

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Speaker 1: predecessor to the Ford Granada. Yeah, so that's which is

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Speaker 1: a totally different car. But it was also you know,

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Speaker 1: it was ten years later and Devin is now board

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Speaker 1: by Joe's Steve have Cartile checking out on apologize. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I just want to say, how can you not use

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Speaker 1: zephyrt because it's a cool name, it's a great name.

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Speaker 1: I actually, I really I wish that it's the Zodiac

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Speaker 1: so that at least we have a connection to another

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Speaker 1: serial killing. Yeah. If they you know what, if they

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Speaker 1: ever make the Zodiac car again, people are going to

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Speaker 1: be getting that that's the Zodiac symbol on the hood.

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Speaker 1: Sure they will never do that ever again, probably for

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Speaker 1: that reason. Yeah, so back to our well know, it's

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Speaker 1: a killer car. Oh god, it was a good it was.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't even a little bit of a good one today.

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Speaker 1: So that's uh. That's Francis Brown. And she, like I said,

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Speaker 1: she was found a month later. Yeah, a month fullmos

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Speaker 1: since she had been seen last. And again it's hard

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Speaker 1: to tell. I think the sense I had was that

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Speaker 1: investigators thought that Kim and Francis were good enough friends

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Speaker 1: that had Francis been free and alive, him would have

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Speaker 1: seen her in that time frame. Yeah, you know, I

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Speaker 1: almost got the sense of them like living together. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think that I'm not if I'm remembering correctly.

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Speaker 1: I think Francis Brown. When they found her body, it

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Speaker 1: was significantly deteriorated, so she had been probably dead the

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Speaker 1: entire month. Yeah. The next victim was Bridget O'Hara. She

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Speaker 1: was twenty eight years old, and she's the last official victim.

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Speaker 1: She was found behind a storage shed. She had the

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Speaker 1: same Yeah. By the way, I think if I had

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Speaker 1: this write in another source, I found this was a

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Speaker 1: shed that actually had two transformers inside it. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was about to talk about that. Actually, Okay, sorry,

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Speaker 1: So she had she did have the same paint flex

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Speaker 1: on her body. Um. They were identical to all of

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Speaker 1: the other paint flex that had been found. Um. And

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Speaker 1: they were actually identical to paint flex also on a

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Speaker 1: transformer that Joe mentioned bursting my bubble yet again. The

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Speaker 1: transformer was found just a couple of yards away. It

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Speaker 1: also appeared that her body had been kept warm it

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Speaker 1: was so it was in good condition. So they thought

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Speaker 1: maybe it had been kept cool, but again it's hard

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Speaker 1: since we don't know. People also say they think it

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Speaker 1: might have been mummified in a transformer, right, Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: that was the that was the that was the thing,

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Speaker 1: that was that was the thing somebody. That's something that

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Speaker 1: I think when we say a transformer, what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about is a big metal box, you know, several feet

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Speaker 1: by several feet that you can somebody could actually climb

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Speaker 1: into it large enough, so not the things that are

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Speaker 1: up on poles. Yeah, yeah, and so that that's a

336
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Speaker 1: bit of a question. And I've read some places that

337
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Speaker 1: it was mummified. I've read some places that it was

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Speaker 1: in good condition and looked like it hadn't been dead

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Speaker 1: for very long. I've read some places that they thought

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Speaker 1: her body was kept cool for a period of time,

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Speaker 1: kept a refrigerator or something like that. So it's hard

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Speaker 1: to tell. Again, I don't think somebody hung out and

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Speaker 1: watch Telly with the body for a couple of as

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Speaker 1: in the cooler, and then you realized the conversation was

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00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,400
Speaker 1: really droll, and yeah, you're just pulling all of those

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Speaker 1: really fun English words out, aren't. I'm working. I've been

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Speaker 1: watching a lot of English TV. I'm just waiting to

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Speaker 1: say boot and car park not gonna happen. That happened.

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Speaker 1: So Bridget's body was actually found on February sixteenth, nineteen

350
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Speaker 1: sixty five, so there's a bit of a gap there. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's three months from almost three or four months from

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Speaker 1: the prior body he kind of did. It was a

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Speaker 1: hop scotch. It's kind of weird, yeah, because the first

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Speaker 1: let's see, the first bodies were found within like a

355
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Speaker 1: week or two of each other, April eighth and April, right,

356
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Speaker 1: The first body was February, right, Hannah was the first

357
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Speaker 1: official victim. Oh yeah, sorry, I'm looking at the wrong things.

358
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Speaker 1: So Elizabeth was like four years before, five years. So

359
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Speaker 1: Hannah was found in February, and then nothing until April,

360
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Speaker 1: and then two in April, and then nothing again until

361
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Speaker 1: July with Mary, huh, and then the November and then

362
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Speaker 1: February again, October and November. Well yeah, oh, you're right, right,

363
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Speaker 1: that's right. She disappeared think in October. So yeah, there

364
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Speaker 1: was some It's weird because you you think there would

365
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Speaker 1: be that pattern investigation. There were two real quick right

366
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Speaker 1: after each other, and then nothing for a while. So

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Speaker 1: you almost wonder if maybe he actually had to just

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Speaker 1: be more careful because after you know, it was after

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Speaker 1: that second after the third body I guess was found,

370
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 1: after the second one in April was found, the police

371
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 1: started saying, hey, we know there's a dude out there

372
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Speaker 1: killing ladies, Like yeah, yeah, they actually they took poured

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Speaker 1: tons of cops into the area, and they they had

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Speaker 1: surveillance vans like you know, concealed surveillance fans all over

375
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Speaker 1: the place, and they had women dressed up as prostitutes. Yeah.

376
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Speaker 1: So they I mean, they definitely took it seriously. Yeah.

377
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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and that that might be one of the

378
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Speaker 1: reasons the whole thing stopped. So guys, you know, it

379
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Speaker 1: makes the little hard to get away with these crimes

380
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 1: from there's thousands of cops hanging around. Yeah, they really

381
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 1: get in the way of your hobby, do they really do.

382
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,360
Speaker 1: It's tend to go off and become like the Yorkshire

383
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Speaker 1: Ripper or maybe the you know, we're just British novel. Yeah,

384
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 1: you find a different hobby. There's always that. Yeah. So

385
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Speaker 1: there's one last victim again, it's an unofficial victim, and

386
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Speaker 1: it was Gwyneth Rees and she was twenty two. She

387
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Speaker 1: was found on November eighth, nine sixty three, which is

388
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Speaker 1: obviously later than nineteen sixty five. I'm realizing that this

389
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:35,479
Speaker 1: particular earlier. No, I meant later, so she should be

390
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 1: in there earlier. She should actually be at the beginning

391
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Speaker 1: to I'm sorry everyone. She's another outlier. Yeah, she I

392
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 1: can see more than the other one, Elizabeth. I think

393
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: I see Gwyneth a little bit more. She was twenty two.

394
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Speaker 1: She was found near the River Thames. She died of strangulation,

395
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Speaker 1: but with ligature marks, so that was inconsistent with Jack's

396
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 1: favorite way of just killing women. Uh and but she

397
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: did also have broken teeth. So you know. The other

398
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: thing we haven't talked about that was consistent among all

399
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: of these women, besides the manner of death and their occupation,

400
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: is that I remember looking at some stuff coming across

401
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 1: the fact that all but one was dark haired, and

402
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: all of them, they were all of I believe it's

403
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: described as short stature, which means that they were five

404
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: ft three or under. They all looked very similar. Yes,

405
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: they they Yeah, and they're the blonde. The one that's

406
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: the blonde. I can't think. I can't remember the name

407
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: in the list of which one it is that was

408
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: a blonde. I just remember the picture different. She She

409
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 1: actually is much different than the others. The others all

410
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 1: looked to me like they could have been related in

411
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: some way. So this guy definitely had a type. He

412
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: was after a certain kind of lady that was really

413
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 1: his thing. Oh yeah, absolutely. And you know, again, the

414
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 1: reason that I would argue that I think Gwyneth is

415
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: probably part of this is that I think I think

416
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: there's some escalation. I would be willing to say that

417
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: Gwyneth is the first victim that he first actual the

418
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: first actual victim that he strangled her with her stockings um,

419
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: which I believe is how she died those with the

420
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,239
Speaker 1: literature marks they thought were from instead of you know,

421
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 1: choking her with flacio, and then it just escalated from

422
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: there because she does she looks a lot like her patterns,

423
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: you know, looks. It looks a lot like something that

424
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: could have been escalated into his actual m O. But

425
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: that'd just be my personal argument. It might be a

426
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: first time around and for something this straight up strangulation,

427
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: and then he sort of develops a new technique after that. Yeah.

428
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: So the one other thing that I want to I

429
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 1: want to bring up just briefly because I don't want

430
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 1: to get into much more detail here, but I know

431
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: that a lot of people are going to be saying, well,

432
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: wait a minute, if Flacio is the way that he's

433
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: strangling him, why don't these women simply bite down off? Yeah?

434
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: Because well, I mean, but the the easy answer is

435
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: is if it's in a if you're in a higher

436
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: position than somebody and you put a thumb in the

437
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: back of somebody's jaw, it locks it open, and therefore

438
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: you incapacitate that that ability. So I just want to

439
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: have that off of the past because I know a

440
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: lot of people like, well, I would just do this.

441
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: Here's the other thing. I don't know. Again, I'm trying

442
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: to think of like a sensitive way to say this,

443
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: but when there's something stuck in the back, like really

444
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: wedged in the back of your throat, it's hard to

445
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 1: be your jaw muscles don't work like you think they're going.

446
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 1: And that's the last thing you're thinking about. You're trying

447
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: to breathe. Yeah, oh yeah, yes, you you want to breathe.

448
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: I understand that there is that that gasp and gag

449
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: reflexive I've got to get air. I've got to get air,

450
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: not oh well, I'm gonna go on the offensive. Yeah,

451
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 1: it's also possible that they didn't. I mean, we don't

452
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: know what the situation was. It's not as though their

453
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: bodies shown showed great signs of struggle or anything like that.

454
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: I mean, aside from missing teeth. So you also don't

455
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 1: necessarily know what the situation was that you didn't that

456
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: they didn't realize they were going to die until it

457
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: was too late. You know that that there Jack said,

458
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: you know, okay, this is what we're going to do,

459
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: and then and they were like, okay, I mean, I

460
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: guess you're paying me a lot of money or you've

461
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, offered me a lot of money. And then

462
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 1: before before you realize it, you aren't breathing, and you're thinking, well,

463
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: surely going to pull up, and then you realized and

464
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: then you're just it's too late. I'm still kind of

465
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: surprised that at least a few of them didn't grab

466
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: some other certain part of the anatomy and well, but

467
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: there's also frankly, there's no way to know that that

468
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: didn't happen. Maybe, I mean, there are people who are

469
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: into that. And that's the other thing is that the

470
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: I think correct me if I'm wrong. But the big

471
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: reason that we think that this is the tool that

472
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: he used to strangle them with is because semen was

473
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: found in their stomachs. Yeah, that that is what has

474
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: led people to believe that that was how they were killed.

475
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: But we don't know that for sure. It could be

476
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: that after the fact he grabbed their underwear, shoved it

477
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: in their mouth and crammed it down there, and in

478
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: some way that's what they choked on. I mean, we

479
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: don't know that for sure. Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. Again,

480
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those things where we like,

481
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: we don't know who this guy actually is, so there

482
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: is no way to know. And actually, actually, now that

483
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: you mentioned it, in the case of the underwear in

484
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: the in the throat, that definitely had to been done

485
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: after the fact. It would have had to because obviously, yeah,

486
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: she's not going to just sit there, Oh yeah, go

487
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: ahead and cram that and then pack it in there

488
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: with your thing. Yeah, she's not going to consent to

489
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: that probably. Yeah. So that's why that's why there's a

490
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 1: lot of questions about the that particular mode of death.

491
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, And I mean, you know, the other

492
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: part two is that there were no ligature marks, so

493
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: they had to have been an obstruction of the airway. Um,

494
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: so I guess the other thought is not all of

495
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: them were found with their underwear shoved down their throats.

496
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: So you know, how else does one strangle someone without

497
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: like a tumarks? Yeah? Good question. Um, we really need

498
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: to get off this line of topic. But the only

499
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: other thing that I thought about is I'm trying to

500
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: figure out what have been used in something akin to

501
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: like a ball gag. I don't think so, because the

502
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: the amount of tightness that you would have to achieve

503
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 1: to actually strangle someone with a ball gag would likely

504
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: like I don't mean the official the kind that you

505
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: could buy, just some something like that that was used

506
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: as a gag, is what I'm getting at. Why not

507
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: a plunder or a super ball or something like that.

508
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it's something that's large enough to go in,

509
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: but but that's I mean, that's but then you have

510
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: to have a way to get it back out. I'm like,

511
00:28:54,160 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: but let's move on. Yeah, just like a coin, yeah,

512
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: or paddleball. Okay, So let's let's move on talk about

513
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: the investigational level. Let's do that. The lead investigator in

514
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: the case was Chief Superintendent of Scotland Yard at the time.

515
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: That was John Durose. And it's reported that the investigative

516
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: team interviewed seven thousand suspects. The population of London at

517
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: the time was about eight million, so that's like almost

518
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: one percent of the population of people almost it's a

519
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: lot of people. It is. They really didn't like having

520
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: to investigate this. They really didn't. So out of the

521
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: seven thousand, they identified twenty actual suspects and then they

522
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: have that and then finally um wild it down to

523
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: three people they thought. Um. But Durose had a favorite suspect,

524
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: and he talked about that in the media. UM, and

525
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that in the suspect slash theories. And

526
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: one quick note to mention before we really get to

527
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: from into theories splash suspects. UM. He is Kenneth Archibald.

528
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: He was a fifty seven year old caretaker and he

529
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: actually confessed to the murder of Irene Lockwood almost three

530
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: weeks after um she was found. But his confession was

531
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: pretty much dismissed because the police thought that there were

532
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: a lot of inconsistencies with his version of the events. Um.

533
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: And then also they found a third victim. They started

534
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: to take him to trial. They did, and then they

535
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: started and then they this other victim showed up, and

536
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: then they actually listened to what he was saying and thought, wait,

537
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense and totally dismissed it. Um, So

538
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: we won't take him into serious consideration. But that's the

539
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: sort of thing that you'll you'll see around Uh. And

540
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: then I get the other I like, I don't understand

541
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: the mindset of that, really confess the crimes you didn't commit. Yeah,

542
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: especially when like that. It's not as though I don't

543
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: It's not my understanding that police like looked at him

544
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: and they were like, oh, it was definitely you, and

545
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: pressured him into a confession. It was my impression that

546
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: he just kind of came forward. There are a lot

547
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: of people who do that, and there is a myriad

548
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: of reasons that they confess, whether it be too you know,

549
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: because they have some mental affliction that they've convinced themselves,

550
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: or they just want the attention, or they want a

551
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: place with three squares and a warm blanket. He was

552
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: a caretaker I mean he needed a job. Well, but man,

553
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: maybe he didn't like his job and this was easier,

554
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: you know, going and sitting in the pokey is much easier.

555
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: It's a serial killer, actually, it turns out no, because

556
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: if you're over sixteen, you get convicted of like more

557
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: than two murders, you get put to death. Yeah written

558
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: not today and not today, but don't kill anybody. And

559
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: sixties they're still a hangman noose. Yeah, they still kill people.

560
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: As it is possible that this guy actually did kill her, Okay,

561
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's possible. He also could have been

562
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: one of her John's and in some add some connection tour,

563
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: but again is pure speculation. Absolutely. The point is he's

564
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: not responsible. No, he's definitely not. I know I said

565
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: it before, but the key to being a good murderers

566
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: to go around confessing the murders you didn't commit and

567
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: then tell you just developed this reputation as a crank,

568
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: you know, and then and then go on the spree

569
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: and and I go kill us, and then go kill

570
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: somebody and confess to it, and they'll just roll their

571
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: eyes and show you the door. Yeah, oh this guy again,

572
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: yea is Joe again? Actually pretty soon they get fed

573
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: up and they just throw me in the pokey for

574
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: one of the murders. Sin. So I don't care if

575
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: you committed it or not. Now, yeah, I'm sure that

576
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: there would be some crime they would convict you of,

577
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: if nothing else, of obstruction of justice or something some

578
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: random old school law of getting in the way. Okay, So, uh, theories,

579
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: suspects everything. Yeah, I mean there's like seven thousand suspects.

580
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: So we better get started. I mean, you know where,

581
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: like minutes into the show. Yeah, you better settle in, folks,

582
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom, get yourself another drink. Alright, seven

583
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: thousand you guys, ready, Yeah, just kidding, I have the stadium, pal,

584
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: I'm ready. All right. So let's start with Chief Inspector

585
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: de Rose's favorite, who he called Big John. His name

586
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: not his real name, No, actually, not like nothing to

587
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: do with his real name at all. I'm pretty sure

588
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: that the name John is in reference to being a john.

589
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: I think that's probably true. Big John's real name was

590
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: Mungo Ireland. Drose revealed that Ireland had been identified as

591
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: a suspect shortly after the murder of Bridget O'Hara. The

592
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: paint flex that were similar to those found on most

593
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: of the bodies were found on Mr Ireland. I believe

594
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: that he was actually the security guard for at that

595
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: painting facility garage. What I read is that he actually

596
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: was a security guard who drove around in a van

597
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: and checked on various businesses from Sorry, so I should

598
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: have clarified that he was a security guard for many

599
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: of these places, including the place with it. And also

600
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: he kept his car in a garage to shift wet.

601
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: It was n PM to six am, if I recall right, shifts. Yeah,

602
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 1: and and apparently all all of these women disappeared between

603
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: eleven eleven PM and one am, and their bodies were

604
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: dumped between five and six am. That's one reason he

605
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: looked really good as a suspect, and because he had

606
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: access to a lot of the places and it was

607
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: kind of on his beat. And there was the interview

608
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,959
Speaker 1: that from that book what was the book called Jack

609
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: the Jack the Jumper, Jack the Jumper, And there was

610
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: that interview with Ireland. Yeah, um where he taught I

611
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 1: mean he had a car. Um. One of the places

612
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 1: that he did security was that garage that the name

613
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: is escaping me. I'm really sorry I've ever described Oh see,

614
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: you get the windy autos. Yeah, that was like also

615
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: a club kind of Maybe. I don't think it was

616
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: really a club, but I think certain I think certain

617
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: activities went on and there at the time. They did.

618
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: Actually that's some of the people that worked there actually

619
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: were known to go back there with prostitutes at least once. Yeah,

620
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: So it was of a shady business. And he admitted

621
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: to having connections there and being friends with some of

622
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: the people who owned it maybe or he I think

623
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: he said he had gone around for tea every once

624
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: in a while or something. Yeah, and then I think

625
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: some of the other stuff is that besides the paint

626
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: flakes and all that stuff is According to the polices,

627
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,280
Speaker 1: his car's registration number was among those that we're seeing

628
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,439
Speaker 1: by the police in the area where the murder picked

629
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: up as victims because they had been they had been

630
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: putting up roadblocks. Yeah, because there's only a certain number

631
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 1: of roads that went in and out of the area

632
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: that the bodies were showing up sleep. They were counting

633
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: cars coming in and out, recording them. And if you

634
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: went in and out, you know, went in and came

635
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: back out over a certain timeframe at night, they put

636
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: you on a red list, which is I mean, you know,

637
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 1: it's that one's hard because he was a security guard.

638
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: He did technically have legitimate business and that's what his

639
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: job was. But also that's suspicious, I guess. But the

640
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: you know, the thing that I want to point out

641
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: the Joe brought up is that, Okay, well, we believe

642
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: that the that the women were picked up between a

643
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: certain amount of time, and that the bodies tended to

644
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: be dumped around a certain amount of time. But that's

645
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: that's really thin. Okay, they are working the streets at night,

646
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: so we know they're picked up at night, but they

647
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: could the bodies could have been dropped in a number

648
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: of these locations at midnight or five in the morning.

649
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: So that's that's but that that's one of the things

650
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: that they used to tie it to Ireland and to

651
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,959
Speaker 1: uh not John Mango. And I was about calling John early,

652
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 1: which is wrong, big John Mungo Ireland. So to Mango

653
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 1: is that because of this time frame, But that's that's

654
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: really not all that strong. Well to think about it

655
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: is is uh Mango is a really good suspect, and

656
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: that's why John do Rose, you know, was convinced it

657
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: was because also because after his suicide, the killing stopped.

658
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, but anyway, but yeah, they were never actually

659
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: conclusively able to tie the murders to him at all.

660
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: I mean, they were never able to prove a thing. Yeah. Okay, wait,

661
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: let's talk about a suicide. Yeah, let's talk about a suicide.

662
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: Um right. I don't have an exact date, Okay, I

663
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: was gonna ask if you found that because I never could.

664
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: And you know, I mostly see it as right after

665
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: the discovery of Bridget O'Hare's body, but then I O

666
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: other places see it right before the discovery of Bridget

667
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: O'Hair's body. So I don't know. I heard that it

668
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: was actually the precipitating event for it was that they

669
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: had been making the police have apparently been making some inquiries,

670
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: and apparently they had examined the garage where he kept

671
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: his car or van or whatever and found all those

672
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: things you know, like cold dust, you know, and stuff

673
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: like that, like they found because he went through the

674
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: place where they believed it was all originating from. Yeah,

675
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: and so when he apparently found out that they had

676
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: been to that garage and made a made a very

677
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: minute examination of it, when he found that out, he

678
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: realized that it was kind of near the end for him.

679
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: But I mean, the thing is that it's all speculation.

680
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: His suicide note, I will read what it said specific.

681
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: It was not specific at all, and it is it's

682
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: total speculation that we're just foisting on this guy. Um,

683
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: his suicide note to his wife. Um, he actually okay,

684
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,439
Speaker 1: So he committed suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning. He sat

685
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: in the garage with a window down on the car

686
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: going and he said, quote, I can't stick it any longer.

687
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: To save you in the police looking for me, I'll

688
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: be in the garage unquote. And actually, one of the

689
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: other big issues with the idea that it was maybe

690
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: Ireland is that they actually thought that maybe he was

691
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 1: in Scotland when Bridget O'Hara was being murdered, not actually

692
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: in London, which that would obviously be a problem. That

693
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: would be a problem. Yeah, that's a big issue again

694
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: according to Jack that Jack the jumper, and I was

695
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: not saying this guy's own initiation, but apparently the police

696
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: police inquiries had established that he was in London during

697
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: every period when somebody was murdered. Yeah, again, it's hard

698
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 1: to tell. They never they were never able to question

699
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: him because he killed himself before they were able to

700
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: question him. And except for that one small interview, as

701
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: we said before that we also don't know exactly when

702
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: they disappear. So maybe the guy, you know, the guy,

703
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: the author of Jack the Jumper, decided, well, this person

704
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: had to have been kidnapped beforehand. I means it's I mean,

705
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: I guess the other There's always with all these serial murders,

706
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: it's always possible that at least one or two of

707
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: them are the work of a copycat, especially with one

708
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: that was so it's they weren't exactly withholding details in

709
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 1: the press about this and how all the women were murdered.

710
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: So it's it's certainly possible that you know, Ireland was

711
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 1: responsible for some of them and not all of them

712
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: or or whatever. But he he was the chief chief inspector,

713
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: chief superintendence Drows, he was his favorite suspect. Then he's

714
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: a good suspect. It must admit that since far from proven. Okay, alright, okay,

715
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: Freddy Mills, Um, do you guys know who Freddy knows us? Now? Yeah?

716
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: Freddy Mills was the world light heavyweight champion in boxing

717
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: from eight to nineteen fifty. I guess I didn't realize

718
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: that light heavyweight was a thing. Was confused. I looked

719
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: it up, actually looked it up, and it's it's the

720
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: lightest division of the heavyweight. I understand it. So I

721
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: think it's it's a hundred and fifty to a hundred

722
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: and seventy pounds or something. How many stones is that?

723
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: That's like seven at least at least two hundred stones?

724
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: How big the Yeah, I don't know what are they pebbles?

725
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 1: Are they like giant things? I don't know? Antique British

726
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: weight system? Sorry? Um, So he was. He was a

727
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: pretty prominent figure at the time. You know, he was

728
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: the boxing champion, World boxing champion. He owned a club

729
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: that had previously been a restaurant in case anybody's going

730
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: to freak out about that, and he actually began acting

731
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: a little bit too. He hosted some TV shows. He

732
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: was he was kind of an up and coming he um.

733
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: He did some walk ons. He you know, he was

734
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: kind of he was just doing his thing. You're similar

735
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: to say Donald O. J. Simpson in the at the

736
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: end of his foot well career started coming on. He

737
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 1: made a couple of movies, made a couple of movies

738
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: and TV shows. I would say more like Dwayne the

739
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: Rock Johnson and then and then yeah, that's a good one.

740
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: Well but he actually made it well yeah, yeah, differently

741
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: o J. And then o J got Frank for Murder

742
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: by the LP. Do you remember that. I definitely haven't

743
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: found anything from his house recently or anything like by

744
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 1: the time this episode comes out, that's gonna be old news.

745
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: And it was deep. Yeah. The nightclub that he owned

746
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: was frequented by some fairly seedy people, most notably the

747
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: Kray Twins were Ronnie and Reggie and I actually, um

748
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,479
Speaker 1: wasted a stupid amount of time doing some research on them.

749
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: They're super interesting, could even be a subject of their

750
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 1: own podcast. Maybe there are some unsolved mysteries around the twins.

751
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: I can't remember. Their name is definitely familiar. Yeah, they're

752
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 1: very familiar. And there's a movie that came out recently

753
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: about there is. Yeah. And actually we literally just got

754
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: a suggestion today about somebody who was like, I was

755
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 1: doing some research on the Kray twins, and I was like, yeah,

756
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: I know, it's crazy. Um, and I guess if you

757
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: have again, without going too far into it. I guess

758
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: I would say they were like twin al capones. They

759
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: were famous for gangsters, you know, that was like their thing.

760
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: They were the beginnings of organized crime in Britain. Britain,

761
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 1: if they were the beginnings of it, well they were.

762
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: They were the ones who are the best in organization

763
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 1: in terms of like their act. They weren't just running

764
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: together and they were all over the place. Yeah, they

765
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: were like anyway, Freddie was friends quote unquote with the

766
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: Cray Twins kind of and things kind of predictably went downhill.

767
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: It's reported that he suffered from headaches later in his

768
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: boxing career that continued on after he quit not shocking

769
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,919
Speaker 1: who get hit a lot in the head and face. Yeah,

770
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: I don't know why that might happen. But he was

771
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: really in debt to his quote unquote friends, the craze, uh,

772
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: and that of his family. He had a wife and

773
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: two daughters. So Freddie Mills committed suicide, which seems accepted,

774
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: but you say that as if we don't know if

775
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: he really did it himself or without help or so.

776
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: It's hard for me because and again I didn't like

777
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: research too much because I didn't want this show to

778
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: be about the suicide on Freddy Mills. But uh, he

779
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: went out back of his club to take a nap

780
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: in the car, which he did a lot apparently. And

781
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: also he had been borrowing a not working rifle from

782
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: a friend. Uh that got repaired apparently, so it was

783
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 1: working and it was found outside of his car, and

784
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 1: the police said, oh, no, this gunshot wound is consistent

785
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: with a self inflicted wound from this rifle. But without

786
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: reading too much into it, I don't. I'm not satisfied

787
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 1: by that. I have no idea. Like I said, I

788
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: didn't do that much research and focus, isn't it. But

789
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: it was my general impression that I did not off

790
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: handedly immediately accepted that it was a suicide. But the

791
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 1: reading of all of the research that I did didn't

792
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: necessarily explicitly say like a contested suicide. They just said

793
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 1: committed suicide. Okay, So why why is Freddie on this list? Yeah? Well,

794
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: if you stop interrupting me, I tell you come on. Yeah, jeez,

795
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 1: as you're blathering on a rifle. So it actually wasn't.

796
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 1: So it wasn't until after his death in nineteen five

797
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: that these negative rumors started to circulate about him. There

798
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: were a lot of negative rumors that started to circulate

799
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: about him, but a lot of them actually were kind

800
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 1: of collected in this book that came out in two

801
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: thousand two about Freddie exclusively, or about the craze, or

802
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: about it was about Freddy. Um, well, I was it

803
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: was actually it's about Jack the stripper, but it was

804
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: the one to like make the connection to say that

805
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: they thought maybe it was Freddy. But I have a

806
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 1: lot of problems with this. But to to say some

807
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: of the allegations, one of the allegations was that Freddie

808
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: had been actually in a homosexual relationship with Ronnie Cray.

809
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: Not think there's anything wrong with that, not that who

810
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 1: was openly bisexual, Not that there's anything wrong with that,

811
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 1: but it would add a layer of complexity to that relationship,

812
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 1: especially in that time frame it was. It also started

813
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: to be rumored that Freddie had killed eight women and

814
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: that he was about to be exposed as a stripper,

815
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: so he killed himself instead. But this all comes from

816
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 1: this one book from two thousand too, and it doesn't

817
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: seem like there's any historic research to back at. It

818
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like anybody thought that that was a thing.

819
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,479
Speaker 1: I have a question eight women. Is it the eight

820
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: women in question for the Jack the Stripper or is

821
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: this a separate It's just it's just an amorphous. So

822
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: the report was that the craze said that Freddie had

823
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: told them that he had killed eight women, and the

824
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: author of this two thousand two books said, so, obviously

825
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: that must have been these eight women, and of course

826
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: he died. Stuff. But still I say, I I agree. Uh.

827
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: And you know the other thing too, is that I,

828
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: in my reading about Freddie, though he had a brutal

829
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: profession of boxing, I did not get the impression that

830
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: he was overly brutal outside of the boxing ring. It

831
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: didn't see and it also didn't even seem like his

832
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 1: boxing technique was that brutal. So I don't. I didn't

833
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: get the sense that he was really prone to violence,

834
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: So I don't. I just don't buy it. Well, the

835
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: thing about it is is the Jack the Stripper was

836
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: a guy that had some weird sexual predilections. Well, but

837
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: so I think that's the reason that I bring up

838
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: the whole homosexual thing is that if you're you know,

839
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: there's that commonly said thing where if you're trying to

840
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: suppress a part of you. It will come out in

841
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: these like really weird, messed up ways. I don't buy it,

842
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: especially if he was in a homosexual relationship with someone.

843
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: He's not denying it, he's in a relationship with someone.

844
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 1: But the point if it's outside of marriage, the point

845
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: that I'm making is that if you have violent, kinky

846
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 1: sexual predilections, and if you're a guy who wants a nightclubs,

847
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: a famous boxer and a celebt pritty, you're gonna get

848
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: a lot of you know what with women. Yeah, probably

849
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: there's gonna be people coming in who would be happy

850
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: to satisfy your desires. While it's not just that, but

851
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: also at some point if somebody made these allegations and

852
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: some of somebody, some some women or another going to

853
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: come up come out and say, yeah, yeah, he tried

854
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: to ram it down my throat and choked me to

855
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: death one time. I had to had to grab his

856
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: knowledge and squeeze him as hard as I could to

857
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: get into back away. You're gonna get people like that. Yeah,

858
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 1: if you had a part election for sexual violence, then

859
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: you know there would be also I mean you think

860
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: that his wife probably would have brought it up. Yes,

861
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 1: you think I mean, after his death, she probably would

862
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: have said, yeah, he was kind of horrible. Yeah, because

863
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: there's no I mean, there's no fear of retribution at

864
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: that point. I'm going to disagree with that, because there

865
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: are there there are many, many examples of people who

866
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: after an unhappy relationship has ended tragically, and in this example,

867
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: he's killed himself supposedly even and though he may have

868
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 1: been a bit of a bastard, it was I'm going

869
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 1: to protect his legacy because suddenly that's the only thing

870
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: I have to cling to. And I've convinced myself that

871
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: that's the right thing to you. I mean, if you've

872
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: got kids, you know, especially for people, especially for their children.

873
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: So she may not have just turned around and said, oh, yeah,

874
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: he had this thing about my uvula. You know, it

875
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: doesn't like that you keep going back to the uvula.

876
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: I like, I figured out what it was a couple

877
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: of years ago, Like you need a month ago. You

878
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: thought that was something down here, right now it's up here.

879
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 1: It's a far side coming that I figured out what

880
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,919
Speaker 1: it was from. Yeah, let's go ahead and move off.

881
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: Next suspect. Next suspect, I actually think this is this

882
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: guy looks like my favorite suspect, your favorite as in

883
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: like I like him for the crime, not I like

884
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 1: him as a person, or think he has any reading

885
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: You don't want his trading card. No, this is Harold Jones.

886
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: Listeners who are into true crime may be familiar with

887
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 1: Harold Jones given that he was a convicted murderer at

888
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: the age of fifteen. Yeah, he and he is another

889
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 1: one that could have an entire episode on him if

890
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: this were true crime, not on Solved Mysteries. Jones was

891
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: convicted of rape and murder at fifteen. His victims were

892
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: eight and eleven years old. Yeah, and he served at

893
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: quote his Majesty's pleasure unquote from nineteen twenty one till

894
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: nineteen forty one when he was released. There was a

895
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,919
Speaker 1: king at the time. There's a bit of a thing here,

896
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: and that he confessed to his crimes like just before

897
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: he turned sixteen, Because it turns out in the twenties,

898
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: the teens in England, if he had been sixteen instead

899
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: of fifteen when he was convicted of the murders, he

900
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: would have been hanged. Likely not it's not a hundred percent,

901
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: but it's very likely that he would have been hanged instead.

902
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: Of just been twenty years in jail, So smart thing

903
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: to do. But that if I had been in his

904
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: position of authority back then, I would have I would

905
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: have just quietly arranged to have his his birth certificate modified,

906
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: or just you know, find a reason to put the

907
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: trial off for a little while. Yeah, we got a continuance.

908
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 1: What is that? It's this thing I'm using to delay

909
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: things shut off. I'm making it up. But it's a

910
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 1: really cool thing. You're gonna love it. Yeah. So Jones

911
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 1: lived until in nineteen seventy one, and I believe so

912
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: he was alive. Um and I believe living in London

913
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: at the time of the stripper murder. Believed that he was. Yeah,

914
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: there's not again, they're not good records really. Apparently he

915
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: had a wife and children. He did marry. Yeah, so

916
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 1: he was a really brutal child. He raped and murdered

917
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 1: and strangled, actually raped and strangled two young girls. And granted,

918
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: you know he was young at the time too, but

919
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: eight and eleven is still pretty young when you are fifteen,

920
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: i'd say, so. Um so yeah, I mean the only

921
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: problem that I actually the biggest problem I have with

922
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: this is he's another one that like in two thousands seven,

923
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: somebody said, hey, hey, I bet actually Harold Jones has

924
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: something to do with those with the with the jack

925
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 1: the stripper murders. I mean it does. It would be

926
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: reasonable to me to assume that he could have easily

927
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: been the person who did them. But except no evidence,

928
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: have you ever seen any kind of physical descriptions or

929
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: personality descriptions from him? I what I found was very

930
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 1: very vague, okay, because I can. The reason that I

931
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: asked that is, if somebody does something that brutal at

932
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: that young of an age, they would continue with brutal behavior.

933
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 1: And I almost wonder if it's a situation where either

934
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 1: he's falsely he was falsely accused and convicted, or it

935
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: wasn't also unheard of for people who had some um

936
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: who is let's say, develop developmentally delayed or or stunted.

937
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: You know, he may be young, he may have been

938
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,879
Speaker 1: the same age mentally as these girls, and so he

939
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,959
Speaker 1: may or may not have been involved. And then he's

940
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 1: an adult, so he's still a child as an adult,

941
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 1: so he's not going to be prone to that same

942
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: kind of behavior. I mean, this happens, it does he

943
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:46,720
Speaker 1: that was not his case. He was, um, he lured

944
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: these girls because he worked in a shop as a

945
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: fifteen year old and they were visiting the store and

946
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 1: he lurned them away. He there's I haven't read anything

947
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: about and I did actually read a fair amount about

948
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: him because I have this huge morbid curiosity. Okay, So

949
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 1: that's why I was asking about because I didn't find

950
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,879
Speaker 1: a whole lot. But I didn't. I didn't. I kind

951
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: of disregarded him just because of when he was brought up,

952
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: and I was just suddenly curious about that. Okay, So

953
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: that was what I'm going on. Was not the case

954
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: at all. Okay, So this is Harold Jones, ye, and

955
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: this is Jack remember picture, But the drawing is like

956
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: you can't I mean, can I see the picture of

957
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: Harold Jones again? It's it's a pencil drawing that is

958
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:36,720
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but any British literally, any white, any jolly

959
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: cheeky feature at all. So it's it's hard to tell. Yeah,

960
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,919
Speaker 1: I'm inclined to say that at that point in time

961
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: he was kind of nearing the end of his life

962
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 1: because when was he born nineteen well, he was fourteen

963
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: and or he was fifteen in ninety one, Okay, I

964
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 1: think it was not. Oh nine, yes, I guess it

965
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 1: still would have been young enough somebody, you know and

966
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: all that. Yeah, But like I said, since he wasn't

967
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: brought up as a suspect until like two thousand and seven,

968
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: that feels so much like this thing. We see a

969
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: lot that we try to cut through where it's somebody saying,

970
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: like trying to make a big revelation. You know, Yeah,

971
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not only I made a book, but

972
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:24,439
Speaker 1: it's you know, oh god, this guy lived in kind

973
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: of the same area and was convicted of things that

974
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,879
Speaker 1: were kind of similar. So yeah, my god, it could

975
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: be him. It's probably him, and I saw somebody. That's

976
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,720
Speaker 1: hard for me. I saw somebody and read it claiming

977
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 1: that several of the bodies were found within a couple

978
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 1: of blocks of where he lived in London. I have

979
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: no idea how anyone would know that. It's it's absolutely

980
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 1: not true, because if you look at the maps of

981
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: where the bodies, they're not even found within a couple

982
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 1: of blocks of each other. The two, yeah, the two

983
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: bodies that were closest to each other were found a

984
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 1: mile and a half apart. Yeah, yeah, those were the

985
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: closest ones and so yeah, there's no way that more

986
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: than one body was found a few blocks from his house. Yeah,

987
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: so that's all the suspects. I know there are some

988
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 1: other suspects that I have willfully ignored. Yeah, well I'll

989
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: talk about one if you don't mind. Yeah, I know.

990
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 1: There was a detective superintendent in William Baldock who really

991
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: didn't like do Roses theory about the security guard Margo. Yeah,

992
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: he his his belief that it was a former London

993
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 1: policeman who committed the murders. Yeah, I didn't like this

994
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 1: theory very much. But let me let me just let

995
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: me spell it out just a little, just a little

996
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 1: bit why he liked it so much. Um So, this guy,

997
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 1: we gotta call him, what are we gonna call him?

998
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: Officer Jones? Let's call him that. How about Jack? Officer Jack?

999
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 1: Officer Jack? Okay, Officer Jack was a cop, but he

1000
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: was not that well liked by his co workers. Apparently

1001
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 1: a lot of them felt that they didn't really trust him,

1002
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: and he sort of turns out he wasn't that trustworthy

1003
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: because eventually you got arrested for committing a series of

1004
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 1: burglaries and he was eventually, of course, convicted, sentenced to

1005
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: a year, and of course he was booted off the

1006
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:10,760
Speaker 1: police force in London. Yeah, yeah, yeah, shocking yeah, so

1007
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: um okay, he got he got out of prison after

1008
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 1: he served a year and got out in June nineteen

1009
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: sixty three. He took a job as a car salesman. Um.

1010
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: And the reason Baldock started liking this guy nobody trusted

1011
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 1: a car salesman exactly. That's a good reason. This guy

1012
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: was a smooth talker. He was especially good with women,

1013
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 1: It's actually true. But Baldock was looking at a map

1014
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: and he noticed that the bodies were being dumped in

1015
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 1: different police subdivisions in London. Five out of the six

1016
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: bodies were dumped in subdivisions that that officer Jack had

1017
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: worked in. And there are there are many many subdivision

1018
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 1: police subdivisions in London. Yeah, and so five out of

1019
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: the six and and number six, Irene Lockwood was found

1020
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 1: in the Bank of the Thames and and may have

1021
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: actually been dumped in one where this guy used to

1022
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: work and drifted there from somewhere else anyway. So this guy,

1023
00:57:58,200 --> 00:57:59,959
Speaker 1: as I said, was sentenced to a year in prison

1024
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 1: and at his at his trial, He said that he

1025
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: committed the crimes not so much because he wanted to steal,

1026
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: but because he liked the idea of doing something that

1027
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: his fellow cops would have to work on but would

1028
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: not be able to solve. So he felt better than them. Yeah, yeah,

1029
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: and just just to just to frustrate them, because he

1030
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: felt like, you know, you know, I guess he felt

1031
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 1: a little that he'd been mistreated or something like that,

1032
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 1: and so he thought he'd screw them, you know. And

1033
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: so that's another reason why Baldoc thought that this guy

1034
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 1: was a good fit for the murders. But again that's

1035
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: just his theory and there's no proof whatsoever. And of

1036
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: course he was never able to actually name this guy's

1037
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 1: name actually, as opposed to Mango Irish, so we won't

1038
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: know who he is Irish, Mango Ireland, but anyway, he

1039
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 1: wasn't Irish. But I thought it was an interesting theory

1040
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 1: and at least worth mentioning, even though well, you know

1041
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 1: that that's the frustration with this one, right is it.

1042
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: I feel like we hit this point with a lot

1043
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 1: of these cases where we think London is a big town,

1044
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people. One percent of the population

1045
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: could have done it. I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm

1046
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 1: sorry to tell everyone. I don't know. Yeah, I have

1047
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: no idea. No, I don't either. Yeah, we'll never know.

1048
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: I think it was some guy named Jack. That's all

1049
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: we know. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you want to

1050
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 1: see some of the research that we've done, um, or

1051
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: listen to the episode because apparently you don't know where

1052
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 1: to get it, or um anything like that. If you

1053
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: want to leave a comment on this, you can do

1054
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: that on our website. The website is thinking Sideways podcast

1055
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 1: dot com. If you're listening to us on iTunes, don't

1056
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: forget to leave a comment and a rating. That's how

1057
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: people find us. I'm feeling pretty good about those comments

1058
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 1: and ratings. These days, you can stream us pretty much anywhere,

1059
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: you know. It's kind of silly that we're still telling

1060
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: you how to find the show because obviously you've made

1061
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 1: it through an episode. But sure, UM, if you're streaming service,

1062
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 1: lets you do comments and ratings and all that stuff.

1063
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 1: Just do that for us to thinks um. You can

1064
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: find us on social media. We have the Facebook group

1065
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 1: and page, so you can like us and follow us,

1066
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: join the group. It's not follow us it's joined the group.

1067
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 1: Like the page, follow the group, join the group. Follow

1068
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: us on Twitter. It's Thinking Sideways. You can see some

1069
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 1: really awesome pictures of me. Um. You can find us

1070
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 1: on Reddit. We have a subreddit. It's um are Thinking Sideways.

1071
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 1: It's not the Thinking Sideways pod one. If you go

1072
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 1: there you will be very sad. It's just like four

1073
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: random things. UM. You can also get swag like stuff

1074
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 1: if you want. That link is on our website on

1075
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: the left sidebar, and we've been adding some new content.

1076
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: Also on the side is um uh link to PayPal

1077
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: if you are so inclined to do a one time donation,

1078
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 1: but also a link to Patreon if you are inclined

1079
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 1: to make a reoccurring donation. That's per episode. So maybe

1080
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, if you want to, I'm not

1081
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 1: going to tell you don't donate fifty dollars per episode,

1082
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 1: but please take that into consideration because we don't want

1083
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: to like make you feel like you're paying us a

1084
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 1: lot of money. We appreciate every single cent that we

1085
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: get totally. We think we're going to be able to

1086
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: afford that server upgrade just any minute now. UM. And

1087
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 1: then if you have feedback, for us. If you have suggestions,

1088
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: if you're an expert, if you just want to tell

1089
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 1: us how much you love us, you can send us

1090
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 1: an email. The email address is Thinking Sideways podcast at

1091
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. I'm pretty sure that's all the business.

1092
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: Did I get? Did I forget anything? I'm not holding

1093
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 1: a list though, Yeah, well I'm not either, because I

1094
01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: don't need it anymore. Alright, well, Joe, why did you

1095
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 1: write it? I think it was her. Right on that note,

1096
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 1: we're going to get out of here, so talk to

1097
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 1: you guys next week or maybe tomorrow, who knows. Okay, bye,

1098
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 1: bye everybody, Let's sit down to the strip. Okay, bye,