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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Mommy's frantic please after baby Emmanuel, just seven months old,

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Speaker 2: is kidnapped during an attack outside a sporting good store tonight,

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Speaker 2: inconsistencies emerge that bothers me when LA law enforcement tells

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Speaker 2: me there are inconsistencies, I'm just telling you right now,

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Speaker 2: we got a problem. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: I want to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: San Bernardino. Mom arrives at a sporting goods store on

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Speaker 3: a quiet Thursday evening with her infant son, Emmanuel, but

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Speaker 3: minutes later, a violent attack unfolds in the store parking

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Speaker 3: lot and baby Emmanuel is gone.

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Speaker 2: What happened to baby Emmanuel just seven months old?

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Speaker 1: Control room? I would like to see some shots of

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Speaker 1: this baby.

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Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about the

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Speaker 2: whereabouts of this beautiful child.

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Speaker 1: Beautiful?

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Speaker 2: How many people across our country would give their it

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Speaker 2: to have a baby, People struggling to have babies, people

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Speaker 2: that want another baby, people that attached to this baby

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Speaker 2: and want to raise the baby, that.

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Speaker 1: Pay tens of thousands of dollars. Where is a manual?

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Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything?

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Speaker 2: Nine zero nine three eight seven eight three one three

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Speaker 2: repeat nine zero nine three eight seven eight three one three.

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Speaker 2: As we like to say in the low time, is

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Speaker 2: of the essence. In other words, every minute counts. Joining

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Speaker 2: me in All Star panel to make sense of what

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Speaker 2: we know right now, But first.

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Speaker 1: Listen to this.

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Speaker 4: Seventy miles east of Los Angeles in Ukaipa, Rebecca Harrow

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Speaker 4: steps done needs a new mouthpiece for football. She heads

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Speaker 4: to a sporting good store with seven month old Emmanuel.

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Speaker 4: Rebecca Harrow realizes baby Emmanuel dirtied his diaper, and she

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Speaker 4: prepares to change his diaper before going into the store.

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Speaker 4: Rebecca Horrow places baby Emmanuel next to his car seat

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Speaker 4: to change his diaper. When she hears a man say

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Speaker 4: oh lah. Before she can return the greeting, she has

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Speaker 4: knocked unconscious. When she wakes up, baby Emmanuel is gone.

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Speaker 4: Rebecca Horrow races inside the Big five and asks an

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Speaker 4: employee if she has seen a baby or a person

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Speaker 4: with a baby come into the store. Nine to one

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Speaker 4: one is called at seven forty five.

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Speaker 2: Joining me right now, Joy Benedict, you know her well,

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Speaker 2: investigative reporter CBSLA. She's been on a story from the

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Speaker 2: very beginning. Joy, Thank you for being with us tonight.

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Speaker 2: Let's start at the beginning. What happened.

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Speaker 5: Well, we heard.

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Speaker 6: About this on Thursday night when the call came out

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Speaker 6: saying that there was a reported kidnapping.

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Speaker 5: It happened in you Kaipo, which is.

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Speaker 6: An hour and a half east of Los Angeles and

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Speaker 6: San Bernardino County. And that's when they first got the

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Speaker 6: call from someone of the Big Five.

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Speaker 5: Say my baby has been taken. I need help. So

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Speaker 5: the Sheriff's department rushes to the Big Five parking lot.

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Speaker 6: That is where they find the mother, Rebecca Harrow, and

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Speaker 6: she is frantic.

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Speaker 5: And upset, and she says.

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Speaker 6: You know what, my child was taken, but I don't

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Speaker 6: know what happened. And in the very beginning, there were

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Speaker 6: things like no amper alert was issued, right there weren't

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Speaker 6: any there wasn't any security video for the Sheriff's department.

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Speaker 7: To go on.

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Speaker 2: Wa wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, Joy, Benedette,

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Speaker 2: you've got me drinking from the fire hydra here. And

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Speaker 2: I know from missing people cases, especially children, every detailed

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Speaker 2: count and you have the facts.

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Speaker 1: Guy's Joy has.

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Speaker 2: Been on the case since baby Emmanuel was first reported missing.

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Speaker 1: Tonight. Where is this baby? Did it go down the

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Speaker 1: way we're being told?

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Speaker 2: Also with me, in addition to Benedict, is a longtime colleague,

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Speaker 2: Brian Fitzgibbons. Brian the director of Operations at USPA Nationwide Security.

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Speaker 2: He leads a team of investigator specializing in finding missing

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Speaker 2: people at uspasecurity dot Com.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Brian, thank you for being with us tonight.

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Speaker 2: I want to quickly point out we're hearing about inconsistencies

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Speaker 2: in what happened. But wouldn't you agree with me. I'm

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Speaker 2: not defending anybody. I'm not prosecuting anybody. I want to

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Speaker 2: find this baby, and I want to find the baby alive.

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Speaker 2: The mother says. Rebecca Harrow says her step son needs

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Speaker 2: a new mouthpiece for football. Okay, I'm projecting, but many

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Speaker 2: times at the last minute, I've run to Dick's Sporting

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Speaker 2: Goods or target or wherever I can get as fast

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Speaker 2: as I can get to get on shin guards because.

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Speaker 1: John Davy cannot play. Can I get on the field without.

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Speaker 2: The shin guards? Or I please guess what last year's

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Speaker 2: don't fit? We didn't replace them in time. All sorts

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Speaker 2: of things happen at the last minute. Okay, So maybe

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Speaker 2: I'm projecting, but I get it. And also this would

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Speaker 2: be hard to fake because if there is a football practice, right,

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Speaker 2: that's easily verified. If he didn't have a mouthpiece, that's

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Speaker 2: easily verified. But it ends right there because she never

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Speaker 2: goes in to buy the mouthpiece. But those facts can

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Speaker 2: be verified, can they not? Fitzgibbons.

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Speaker 8: Absolutely, You're bringing in other witnesses that are going to

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Speaker 8: be able to corroborate and validate what the mother is saying.

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Speaker 8: Was the child allowed to enter the field if the

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Speaker 8: answers know from the coach he didn't have his mouthpiece?

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Speaker 8: You know, now we can verify that that piece of

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Speaker 8: the story at least was true.

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Speaker 1: And I'm guessing.

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing that other people were there and saw maybe

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Speaker 2: a manual at that time. I don't know that piece

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Speaker 2: of the puzzle yet, but I'm finding it out. Okay,

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Speaker 2: back to Joy Benedict, who has all the facts far

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Speaker 2: beyond what I in the panel knows. She's been on

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Speaker 2: the ground studying the case. Okay, you started with a call,

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Speaker 2: a call my baby is missing. What do we know

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Speaker 2: about the call? What was said specifically in that call?

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Speaker 1: Words matter? Even one word matters.

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Speaker 5: She said, the baby was kidnapped.

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Speaker 2: Joy, What were the circumstances mommy related at that time

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Speaker 2: as to how the seven month old baby was taken?

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Speaker 5: Well, I spoke to her the very next morning, so

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Speaker 5: I spoke to her at the Big Five.

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Speaker 6: She agreed to do in view with us because at

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Speaker 6: that time she was frantically searching for a child. And

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Speaker 6: what she told me in that interview was that she

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Speaker 6: had left the park with her step son and left

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Speaker 6: their two year old daughter with the father to go

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Speaker 6: and get that mouthguard from the Big five parking lot

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Speaker 6: not too far away in Ukaipa, which is about an

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Speaker 6: hour and a half east of Los Angeles and San

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Speaker 6: Bernadi County, And she had gone to the parking lot,

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Speaker 6: and she said when she got out of their pickup

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Speaker 6: truck from the front seat and went to grab her

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Speaker 6: baby in the back seat, she said she could smell

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Speaker 6: that his diaper needed changing, so she laid him there

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Speaker 6: on the back seat behind the driver's side door, because

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Speaker 6: she said she was on the driver's side and she

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Speaker 6: started to change her diaper when someone attacked her. She

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Speaker 6: said she didn't see him, and then she woke up

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Speaker 6: a few seconds later, she blacked out and she woke

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Speaker 6: up and the baby was gone.

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Speaker 2: Now here's another fact. She smells the dirty dip. She's

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Speaker 2: at the parking lot at Big Five and I need

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Speaker 2: to talk to you about surveillance video. You were there

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Speaker 2: on to find out about cams. But she smells the

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Speaker 2: dirty dip. She gets out of the truck. He assume

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Speaker 2: is in a baby seat in the back seat. She

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Speaker 2: gets him out and then she's attacked.

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Speaker 1: But isn't it true? She says she hears a man

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Speaker 1: say ola.

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Speaker 5: Yes, that is what she told me.

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Speaker 6: She said she heard her man say ola, but she

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Speaker 6: didn't see him, and he attacked her from behind her.

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Speaker 5: But the black eye is in front and so I.

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Speaker 6: Did ask her about her injuries, and she said that

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Speaker 6: she was punched, which was one of the inconsistencies that

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Speaker 6: were discussed later.

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Speaker 1: On Okay, you know what.

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Speaker 2: Philip Dubay joining us in addition to investigative reporter from

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Speaker 2: CBSLA on the story from the get go, Joey Benedict

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Speaker 2: Brian Fitzgibbons. Now, I'm bringing in Philip Debay, a veteran

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Speaker 2: defense attorney, joining us out of the La County jurisdiction debay. Again,

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Speaker 2: I'm not defending or prosecuting anybody, but I do not

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Speaker 2: find that inconsistent. The fact that she was first attacked

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Speaker 2: from behind does not preclude then getting a.

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Speaker 1: Punch in the eye.

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Speaker 2: It also does not preclude her falling forward and hitting

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Speaker 2: the eye. So right now, I don't see an inconsistency,

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Speaker 2: of course not.

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Speaker 9: I mean, the lady told her story, and it's it's

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Speaker 9: up to the casual observer as to whether or not

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Speaker 9: they believe it. And from where I am sitting right now,

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Speaker 9: nothing is contradicting it.

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Speaker 1: Let's hear it from the horse's mouth.

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Speaker 10: I was going to get the diaper and somebody said oil,

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Speaker 10: and I don't welcome right here on the floor.

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Speaker 11: And I didn't see manuel.

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Speaker 1: That from our friends A k t l A Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace joining me.

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Speaker 2: Now, Tom Rawlings, the President of Child Welfare and Justice Transformation,

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Speaker 2: former juvenile court judge, juvenile court judge overseeing juvenile infractions

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Speaker 2: and crimes, child advocate.

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Speaker 1: It goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 2: He's the author of protecting other people's children one hundred

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Speaker 2: and twenty days to create a strong child safety policy.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Tom, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: The reason we're all looking at the mom is because

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Speaker 2: she's the last one to.

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Speaker 1: Be with the baby that we know of.

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Speaker 2: And isn't it true when children go missing, typically you

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Speaker 2: can point to a family member, a relative, or someone

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Speaker 2: in the close network of the family, and that just

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Speaker 2: goes with the territory. I'm not singling her out. I'm

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Speaker 2: not singling the dad out, the stepdad, not not. I

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Speaker 2: just know what statistics are explain.

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Speaker 12: I think there are a lot of questions to look

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Speaker 12: at here because what other evidence was available? Did anyone

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Speaker 12: see a.

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Speaker 9: Man wandering upout around the parking lot.

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Speaker 12: I'm looking for a child to kidnap? Were there any

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Speaker 12: other businesses, surveilance videos?

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Speaker 2: Okay, wait right there, Tom, hold on, hold on, Tom,

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's that easy. Yes, in theory, I

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Speaker 2: agree with you. But Brian Fitzgibbons, you know child abductors, kidnappers, molesters.

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Speaker 1: They can look like the choir director.

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Speaker 2: You're not going to see somebody walking through the parking

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Speaker 2: lot at the Big five Sporting Goods in a trench

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Speaker 2: coat and bare legs and a pair of socks and

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Speaker 2: dress shoes with sunglasses.

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Speaker 1: And hat On. It's not that stereotypical.

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Speaker 2: So to say, did anybody see a child predator wandering

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Speaker 2: around the parking lot? Yes, in theory, he's absolutely right,

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Speaker 2: but we don't know what that might look like.

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Speaker 8: Well, I think mister Rawlings brought up a great point.

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Speaker 8: This can't be a random act. Okay, you know, the

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Speaker 8: abductor would have had to known that the mouthguard would

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Speaker 8: be missing.

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Speaker 1: The abductor would have to have been waiting.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe I'm about to argue with Brian Fitzgibbons. Fitzgibbons, Huh,

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Speaker 2: it's something wrong my ifp Jackie, because I thought he

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Speaker 2: just said the abductor would have to know about the

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Speaker 2: missing mouthpiece. I've never heard anything so crazy in my life. Well,

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Speaker 2: maybe I have, but this is equally as crazy as

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Speaker 2: all of that.

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Speaker 1: Chris Gimmons, that's not.

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Speaker 2: True predators, troll playgrounds. This is a sporting goods store

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Speaker 2: where there's an open parking lot, open parking lot where

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Speaker 2: kids go in to get their sporting equipment, and it's

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Speaker 2: just like hanging out at the ice cream store or

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Speaker 2: the playground. You don't have to know the mouthpiece is missing.

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Speaker 2: Several miles away and then follow the mom and the baby.

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Speaker 2: Although that is a possibility. You could just be hanging

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Speaker 2: out in the parking lot and go, hey, whoa a baby?

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Speaker 1: It happens. I mean, let me think, wha Cherish Periwinkle?

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Speaker 2: Remember that the killer, the killer who raped satom eyed

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Speaker 2: and murdered little Cherish Periwinkle, was just wandering around. I

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Speaker 2: think it was the Dollar General. He sees mommy and

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Speaker 2: three little girls. He's like bam, target and he gets

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Speaker 2: the child under a roofs and murders her.

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Speaker 1: He didn't follow the mommy to the Dollar General. No,

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Speaker 1: that did not happen. I don't know what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: Have you lost your mind?

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Speaker 8: Well, I can agree with you that it does happen,

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Speaker 8: but I think we can both agree that this would

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Speaker 8: be a wild statistical anomaly that first of all, the

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Speaker 8: age of the child seven months old. You know the

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Speaker 8: predominance of suspects in these cases are going to be women,

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Speaker 8: all right, taking a child that's this young, all right.

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Speaker 8: The second thing is this is in a public place,

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Speaker 8: a random act.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Well, what I want to break down what

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Speaker 2: you just said. And I'm not saying you're wrong, but

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Speaker 2: you just skimmed over it. That's an important point you said,

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Speaker 2: And I want you to explain in depth why if

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Speaker 2: there was a kidnapping, it was likely a woman because

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Speaker 2: mommy says she hears a man say olah, and then

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Speaker 2: she is a packed by a man. Okay, A physical

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Speaker 2: attack of that nature is more stereotypically, not stereotypically, but

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Speaker 2: according to statistics, would be affected.

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Speaker 1: By a man.

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Speaker 2: A woman would come up and surreptitiously grab the baby

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Speaker 2: while mom's not looking, or some sneaky or crafty way

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Speaker 2: of getting the baby.

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Speaker 1: Not just go, you know, beat the.

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Speaker 2: Mom over the head and drag her off and get

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Speaker 2: the baby. That's a man, but you said typically perpetrated

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Speaker 2: by a woman. That's very subtle but significant point. So

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Speaker 2: explain to me why you said that.

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Speaker 8: The explanation here is statistics. When you're dealing with a

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Speaker 8: victim of that young of an age in you know,

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Speaker 8: the zero to seven months, zero to a year old,

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Speaker 8: the statistics tell these are typically women perpetrating those crimes.

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Speaker 8: You know, now as you get older, a four or

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Speaker 8: five year old grab from the dollar general, grab from

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Speaker 8: the playground, you know, the perpetrators of those crimes are

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Speaker 8: typically met. But in this case, it's already a statistical

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Speaker 8: anomaly to say that a man physically attacked in this,

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Speaker 8: you know, apparently random act to take an infant.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you know what, just off the top of my head,

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Speaker 2: You've got J. C. Duger, You've got I could just

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Speaker 2: name them off, just like that, where men do randomly

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Speaker 2: grab a child. This is this is not outside the

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Speaker 2: realm of possibility. And the mom says she hurt a man,

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Speaker 2: not a woman.

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Speaker 1: What is your point?

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Speaker 8: The point that I'm making is this is beginning the

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Speaker 8: story unfolding is a statistical anomaly. It's very difficult to believe, okay,

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Speaker 8: that we're we're looking at these circumstances, and if I

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Speaker 8: line it up with the overwhelming amount of data, a

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Speaker 8: man perpetrating this random act is it's possible, certainly possible,

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Speaker 8: but highly unlikely.

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Speaker 1: And Brian, I'm not attacking you.

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Speaker 2: I'm just trying to find the baby.

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Speaker 1: You're right, the.

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Speaker 2: Desire to have a baby is overwhelmingly a female desire.

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Speaker 2: I'll give you a good example. The example of let's

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Speaker 2: see what was her name? Dy Nail Lane is one

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Speaker 2: that just comes to mind. A thirty four year old female.

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Speaker 1: Who had lost a baby.

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Speaker 2: Her baby had a drowning accident, and she went so

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Speaker 2: far as to find a pregnant mom and cut the

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Speaker 2: baby out of the wound. We've heard of those cases, right,

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Speaker 2: there are many of them. Surprisingly, they're almost always done,

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Speaker 2: I could say, always done by a female if the

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Speaker 2: motivation is Okay, again, a subtle but important distinction in

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Speaker 2: your theory. If the motivation is to have your own baby, yes,

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Speaker 2: it's a woman, absolutely a woman. But if the motivation

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Speaker 2: is to get the baby and sell the baby or

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Speaker 2: molest the baby, that's a man. So until we know

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Speaker 2: the motivation, fitz Gibbons, we can't say.

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Speaker 1: Man or woman.

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Speaker 2: So your theory is flawed because we don't know a motivation.

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Speaker 2: It could be a man, it could be a woman,

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Speaker 2: and mommy says it was a man. See where I'm

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Speaker 2: going with this? Why motivation is so important?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I'll con see it and agree that this is

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Speaker 8: very possible. It's possible, right, But there's a difference between

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Speaker 8: possible and probable, And you know, the statistics would tell

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Speaker 8: us that this is not probable, albeit that it is

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Speaker 8: indeed possible.

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Speaker 2: Guys, all of our machinations and our analysis aside. And

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Speaker 2: this is exactly what law enforcement is doing right now

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Speaker 2: as we speak. They're pulling twenty four to seven shifts

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Speaker 2: trying to find this baby. Let's help them. All of

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Speaker 2: our analysis aside. This seven month old baby has been taken.

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Speaker 2: Who took him? Where is he is? He's still alive.

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Speaker 2: Regardless of what you may believe. The only evidence we

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Speaker 2: have right now is what mommy is telling us.

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Speaker 1: Let's take it. Listen from our friends at KTLA, I was.

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Speaker 11: Gonna get the diaper and somebody said oil, and I don't.

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Speaker 1: I'll look right here on the floor.

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Speaker 11: And I didn't see Manuel.

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Speaker 1: From our friends KTLA, where is baby Emmanuel?

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Speaker 2: Just seven months old? Mystery surrounding the search for Emmanuel?

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Speaker 1: Is he dead? Is he alive? Who has baby im Manual?

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Speaker 2: What happened at the time he was kidnapped in a

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Speaker 2: public parking lot? According to mommy, Listen, and I.

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Speaker 11: Said, as I got up, I couldn't find my son.

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Speaker 10: I checked the around my truck, and I ran into

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Speaker 10: Big Five and I asked the lady if she saw.

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Speaker 11: A baby or someone with a baby.

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Speaker 1: She said no.

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Speaker 2: This from our friends at ABC seven, straight out to

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Speaker 2: doctor John Delatory, renowned psychologist specializing in forensic psychology, Doctor Delatory,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. I'm sure you have

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Speaker 2: analyzed every word, every mannerism from mommy analysis.

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Speaker 13: I mean, there's a level of emotion that I think

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Speaker 13: most people would expect a frantic mother to be experiencing. Right,

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Speaker 13: She's kind of huffing and puffing, right, She's kind of

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Speaker 13: like have shallow breathing. Right, There's elements that we would

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Speaker 13: kind of expect a mother to kind of have, but

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Speaker 13: each individual is just a little bit different in how

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Speaker 13: that expression is really gonna go. My concern is that

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Speaker 13: it seems shallow. My concern is that it doesn't seem

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Speaker 13: like it's coming up from a well of struggle and

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Speaker 13: anxiety and fear and anger. Doesn't really seem to be

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Speaker 13: coming from a place like that. It just seems to

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Speaker 13: be kind of.

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Speaker 1: For a show.

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Speaker 2: I don't know where you're getting that. I'm not disagreeing

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Speaker 2: with you or agreeing with you, but I do know this.

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Speaker 2: I apport over every single word. Let's hear Rebecca Harrow again.

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Speaker 11: And I said, as I got up, I couldn't find

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Speaker 11: my son.

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Speaker 10: I checked the around my truck and I ran into

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Speaker 10: big five, and I asked the lady if she saw

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Speaker 10: a baby or someone with a baby.

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Speaker 2: She said, no, hmm, that's where our friend's at ABC seven.

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Speaker 2: And you're sticking with your analysis, delatory that you think

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Speaker 2: it's contrived.

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Speaker 13: Yes, because it sounds correct. It sounds like the thing

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Speaker 13: that we should be hearing. Well, when you see her face,

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Speaker 13: her face doesn't show elements that she's actually been crying. Right,

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Speaker 13: her eyes aren't red from tears, right, there aren't tears

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Speaker 13: actually falling down, right, It's it sounds correct, But the behaviors,

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Speaker 13: the mannerisms, things are inconsistent. Right, when someone is feeling something,

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Speaker 13: genuinely feeling something, the body and the emotions and the words,

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Speaker 13: they all are linked together.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know what.

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Speaker 2: I was listening to what she was saying. But now

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Speaker 2: let's watch her as she speaks. And then we're going

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Speaker 2: to go out to Joy Benedict, who has interviewed mommy.

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Speaker 2: But let's watch for ourselves. Let's watch Rebecca Harrow is delatory, right,

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Speaker 2: And I.

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Speaker 11: Said, as I got up, I couldn't find my son.

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Speaker 10: I checked the all around truck and I'm ran into

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Speaker 10: Big five and I asked the lady if she saw

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Speaker 10: a baby or someone with a baby.

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Speaker 11: She said, no, that.

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Speaker 2: From our friends again at ABC seven Dolatory. You're right,

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Speaker 2: she's not crying at all. And again I've told you

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Speaker 2: this before. Maybe I'm projecting, but when John David went

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Speaker 2: missing in a vast at Baby zero superstore, I immediately

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Speaker 2: started screaming at the top of my lungs and grabbed

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Speaker 2: Lucy his twin like a football, started running toward the

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Speaker 2: front the exit that I knew of to try to

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Speaker 2: find him. He was playing a game. He's you know,

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Speaker 2: a little over two hiding.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so yeah, I'm not seeing any of that.

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Speaker 2: Although this is much later in the day or even

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Speaker 2: day two, when she's stating that maybe she's drained, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. And again I'm not defending or prosecuting. I'm

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Speaker 2: just looking at the facts, because if you don't look

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Speaker 2: at the facts objection in a new objective manner, you're screwed.

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Speaker 2: You can't go into an investigation thinking one thing or

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Speaker 2: the other. Joining me now, Joy Benedict, she is an

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Speaker 2: investigative reporter CBSLA. She's been on the story from the

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Speaker 2: get go. She's interviewed the mom that you just saw

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Speaker 2: and the Dad, I want to hear about her demeanor, Joy,

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Speaker 2: when you interviewed her, I.

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Speaker 6: Mean, I thought she was beside herself. I found her

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Speaker 6: grief very, very real. It was heartbreaking to listen to her.

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Speaker 6: It was freaking to talk to her. And no, she

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Speaker 6: didn't have big crocodile dial tears coming down her face.

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Speaker 5: But a lot of people don't. I mean, I've.

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Speaker 6: Interviewed crime victims for twenty five years within hours of

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Speaker 6: the crime happening, and they all don't cry, some of

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Speaker 6: them laugh, some of them solve, some of them don't

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Speaker 6: want to speak at all.

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Speaker 5: So there is no you know, this is what grief

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Speaker 5: looks like. And I found her grief and her pain.

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Speaker 5: I found it very real where it was coming from.

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Speaker 2: We don't know, Okay, Joy Benedict, does her story hold together?

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Speaker 6: You know, I don't think that's my place to say.

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Speaker 6: I think there's definitely some things that are missing in

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Speaker 6: the story. But you know, that's what DETESL are looking into,

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Speaker 6: and they're trying to figure out right now because there

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Speaker 6: weren't any cameras, there weren't any witnesses. Nobody has come forward,

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Speaker 6: so it's basically her word that this child was kidnapped.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Joy, you mentioned that elements are missing. What elements, Well.

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Speaker 6: It's very odd that there is no security video there

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Speaker 6: in the Big five parking lot. There wasn't much security

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Speaker 6: video at any of the businesses around. There was no

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Speaker 6: one else with her in the parking lot when this

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Speaker 6: incident took place. There was no witnesses, and so it's

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Speaker 6: basically her word calling the police saying my child was kidnapped.

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Speaker 6: They didn't even have enough to put out an amber

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Speaker 6: alert because they didn't have a description of a vehicle.

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Speaker 5: They didn't have a description of a suspect. So you know, that's.

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Speaker 6: Where you know people's red flags are coming up.

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Speaker 5: But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

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00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 6: As you've said on the show, it doesn't mean it

438
00:24:58,400 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 6: couldn't have happened.

439
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's wh problem, Joy Benedict. If you go into

440
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: an investigation pre judged, you're only shooting yourself in the foot.

441
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: Everyone is piling on Mommy tonight, and she is the

442
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 2: last person with the baby. She is the person who

443
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 2: was on watch when the baby was taken. It's not

444
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 2: her fault that there are no cameras in that parking lot,

445
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: which I find really odd.

446
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 1: Is that correct? No cameras in the parking lot.

447
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 6: There are no cameras in the park lot. I've been

448
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 6: in that parking lot for hours. No cameras is in

449
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 6: the Big five next to it is a big lots.

450
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 6: I don't even think that was open anymore. Across the street,

451
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 6: there wasn't much. It doesn't have a camera.

452
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: In it did not Okay, no cameras, no witnesses, nobody

453
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: else is in the parking lot. Again, if you pile

454
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 2: on mommy right now, that's misdirection and you're not going

455
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 2: to find the baby ever or until it's too late

456
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: if you go in the in the wrong direction. So

457
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: there's got to be a dual path of investigation. Right now,

458
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out why everyone is piling onto mommy.

459
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 2: I have my suspicions. Let's listen to what else she said.

460
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 11: Who's a happy boy? He smile my kend you love

461
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 11: to kiss him?

462
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 1: Okay, right there, big problem.

463
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: He was a happy boy, he smiled past, tense, I

464
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: loved to kiss him.

465
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: That's for our friends at ABC seven.

466
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Dave mac, is she referring to her

467
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 2: baby in the past?

468
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 7: Tense I think she is talking about her baby in

469
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 7: the past tense, Nancy, when she says he was happy.

470
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 7: You just listen to those little subtle things she's saying,

471
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 7: and she is referring to him in the past tense.

472
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: Okay, too, away, Benedict, investigator reporter CBS LA, you don't

473
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 2: have a problem with that, because I really do.

474
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 6: I think people say a lot of things when they're grieving.

475
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 6: I'm not going to say I don't have a problem

476
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 6: with it, or I didn't hear it in our interview

477
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 6: as well, because she also spoke about him in past

478
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 6: tense at least once, but she also talked about him

479
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 6: in present tents for the majority of the place. She

480
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 6: accidentally also called him as she once. So, I think

481
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 6: when you are grieving and you are speaking very fast

482
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 6: and you're doing a lot of interviews, there's going to

483
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 6: be some inconsistencies in what you say, and I think

484
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 6: part of that is just natural speak, especially when you're

485
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 6: in front of cameras for probably the first time in

486
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 6: your life.

487
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 2: That's a lot of explaining away as to why she

488
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 2: talked about her baby in the past tense.

489
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: Also, you said grieving.

490
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 2: I don't know, do you know something I don't know,

491
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 2: has the baby been found dead.

492
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 6: I'm just saying grief comes in a lot of different

493
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 6: ways when someone is kidnapped versus if the baby is dead.

494
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 6: I think grief can be a lot of things. It

495
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 6: doesn't have to mean that a child is dead. And no,

496
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 6: I don't know, you don't know, We don't know right now,

497
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 6: open to find this baby. I think everyone is doutor

498
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 6: John Delatory.

499
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: I agree with that last statement from Joey Benedict joining

500
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 2: us out of CBSLA, But I do have a problem

501
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: referring to a mom and dad referring to the baby

502
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 2: in the past tense. When I'm trying to find the baby.

503
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 2: They're volunteers trying to find the baby. It's very reminiscent

504
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: of other individuals that have referred to missing people in

505
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 2: the past tense. I'm referring specifically to Scott Peterson who

506
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: went on National TV and referred to Lacy during the

507
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 2: search for Lacy in the past tense.

508
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: Listen, we took care of each other very well. She's amazing.

509
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 8: He is amazing.

510
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: That from our friends at ABC, what do you make

511
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: of it?

512
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 13: Delatory intentionality, Listen, no one is expecting people to be

513
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 13: media savvy at the worst moments of their lives. No

514
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 13: one is expecting someone to be consistent into when they're

515
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 13: experiencing fear, anger, stress, anxiety, panic, right anger, sadness, depression.

516
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 13: No one is expecting any of those things. But if

517
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 13: your intention is to find someone, then you will be responding.

518
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 13: You will be interacting with others with that intention. And

519
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 13: I'll just say this, if you come away from someone thinking, Wow,

520
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 13: they're really experiencing grief when there's no reason to be

521
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 13: experiencing grief as a result of the loss of a

522
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,479
Speaker 13: loved one, then maybe you're picking up on something that

523
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 13: the person is trying to hide.

524
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 2: Where is seven month old baby Emmanuel? We were discussing

525
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: mommy referring to baby Emmanuel and the past tense.

526
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: But it's not just mommy. Listen, it was a healthy baby.

527
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: It was crawling, he was kickkating, he was playing with

528
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: his toys.

529
00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 11: Whoever took our sons, please give them back?

530
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: Okay again from our friends at ABC seven, Philip Dubay,

531
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: Neither one of the parents are crying. Go ahead, second verse,

532
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: same as the first. There's no playbook for grief. Go ahead,

533
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: hit me, I'm ready there.

534
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 9: Is no almanac for how parents are supposed to react

535
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 9: when their kid has been abduct There's just no way

536
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 9: predict how each person's individuality is going to play out,

537
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 9: either in the media or privately amongst themselves. And it's

538
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 9: unfair to hold everybody's individual reactions against them short of

539
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 9: a confession or some admission of cold ability. Let them

540
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 9: grieve privately and don't try to read into every aspect

541
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 9: of what they're saying and how they present. Otherwise, we

542
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 9: tend to taint future jury pools into not believing anybody

543
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 9: and nobody will ever report a missing child.

544
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: Okay, now you have taken a monumental leak to future juries,

545
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: not even on this case, but the and the never

546
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: ending future about how our analysis of the last person

547
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: with this baby is behaving, enter tainting jury pools into

548
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: future future jury trials. Okay, you know what, Brian Fitzgibbons,

549
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: Let's break it down. Regardless of what Dubey says, neither

550
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: one of the parents are crying. And that may mean

551
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: nothing to a gurrr, it may mean a lot to

552
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: a GRR. And I'd like to point out mom and

553
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 2: dad are innocent. Right now, I don't have anything suggesting

554
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: they took the baby or harm the baby. Yet, I'm

555
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: just trying to find the baby, and their demeanors are

556
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: important to me.

557
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: If it's Gibbons, yeah, it.

558
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 8: Certainly means something here in the court of public opinion.

559
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: Tears or no tears. Let's move forward with what we know.

560
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 4: Listen, just before eight pm Thursday night, Sam Bernardino Sheriffs

561
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 4: arrive and begin searching the Strip Mall in parking lot.

562
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 4: Canine units are dispatched to the scene as well helicopters overhead.

563
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 4: Sam Bernardino Sharf's department joined my neighboring rivers County Deputies

564
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 4: to aid any comprehensive search that stretches through the night.

565
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: So it was not just sand Bernardino Sheriffs. They get

566
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: help from their neighbors. Riverside County Deputies tell me about

567
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: the search and Joy Benedict yees.

568
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 6: So they did a lot right that initial night is

569
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 6: when they had the canine units out, they had the

570
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 6: helicopter of they were looking for any signs of baby Emmanual.

571
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 5: There weren't any.

572
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: So let me understand, Joy Benedict, the mother and father

573
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: are out physically searching for Emmanuel, but the Big Five

574
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: on Friday.

575
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 6: They had flyers, they were handing them out. People in

576
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 6: the community were sh up. Everyone was doing what they

577
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 6: could to try and find this baby.

578
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: Okay, so in a nutshell, yes, the parents are out searching.

579
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 2: Very often when a loved one is under suspicion, they're

580
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: not out searching. These parents are out searching, putting up

581
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: flyers about the search.

582
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: Tell me about the canine search. What happened That all.

583
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 5: Happened on Thursday night very quickly.

584
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 6: They did not get a cent, so the Sheriff's department

585
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 6: deployed the canines immediately.

586
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 5: They didn't get a scent there.

587
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 6: I believe they also sent the dines of other places

588
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 6: outside of where the Big Five was, but without a cent,

589
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 6: there's not much of a search.

590
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: Okay, Brians Gibbons, that's a problem is you will recall

591
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 2: I'll just use Peterson, which is a great example, but

592
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: there are many, many other similar cases.

593
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: A dog picked up Lacey's scent.

594
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 2: They're at the home, their home she shared with husband

595
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson in Modesto and followed the scent all the

596
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: way to the marina.

597
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: At San Francisco Bay. Now, if there's no scent, that's

598
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: a problem.

599
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 2: There should be a sent for Pete's sake, he had

600
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: a dirty dipe. There should be a scent of this baby,

601
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: shouldn't there.

602
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: That certainly is a problem.

603
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 8: No sent in the parking lot is you know, these

604
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 8: dogs are very highly trained and we have case after

605
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 8: case that they will pick up a cent with a

606
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 8: very high degree of accuracy. So no sent in the

607
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 8: parking lot, no video. We're lacking a lot of physical

608
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 8: idents that Emmanuel was actually in that Big five parking lot.

609
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: And since we're on Scott Peterson, Tom Rowlings joining me,

610
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:30,479
Speaker 2: President Child Welfare, Justice Transformation, former juvenile Court Judge Tom, again,

611
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us.

612
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: If you will recall there.

613
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 2: Was a lot of public speculation because Peterson would not

614
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: go on air and make a plea to help find

615
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 2: his missing wife and unborn son. We all know now

616
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: is because he was embroiled in a sex affair with

617
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 2: Amber Fry, who had no idea until then that he

618
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 2: was married. That's why he didn't want to go public.

619
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: But I want you to hear this, Tom Rowlings, the

620
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 2: parents do go public.

621
00:34:58,520 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 1: Listen.

622
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 4: The parents of missing baby a manual, Rebecca and Jay

623
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 4: Carrow appear on local news begging for the return of

624
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 4: their son. Rebecca appears with a black eye she says

625
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 4: is from the attacker. They're emotional pleas bring out volunteers

626
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 4: in the community as well as groups like Uvaldi Foundation

627
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 4: for Kids. Evaldi offers a five thousand dollar reward and

628
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 4: are also providing an independent search for the baby. A

629
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 4: candlelight vigilist scheduled to bring more awareness for baby Emmanual.

630
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 2: So after the parents speak Tom Rawlings, the Uvalde Foundation

631
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 2: for Children gets into action. They start independent searches. Not

632
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 2: that the police failed in their search, but this is

633
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 2: to help we see it all the time.

634
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: They offer a reward.

635
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 2: There's a candlelight vigil to bring awareness to baby Manual's disappearance.

636
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: So the parents do go public and face the cameras well.

637
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: Sure as I'm not.

638
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 12: Sure that I'm not sure that curse. So we know

639
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 12: that if the child's is actually then kid app that

640
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 12: certainly the parents would act to this one. They would

641
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 12: be out looking for the child, they would be in grief.

642
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 12: But we also know that if something else happened to

643
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 12: the child, and the parents knew that something had happened

644
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 12: with the child, that having told a story, they would

645
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 12: have to follow through in fact, like they were looking

646
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 12: for the child. This would not be the first time

647
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 12: we've seen a parent who perhaps there were questions about

648
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 12: whether or not the child disappeared or was somehow harmed

649
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 12: by someone in the family. We've seen situations where these

650
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 12: parents have been part of the search before, until it

651
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 12: comes out that in some of these cases that the

652
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 12: parent was responsible, not suggesting not here, but assistant with

653
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 12: either the truth or a lie here if they were child.

654
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're saying that the fact that they are

655
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 2: out searching neither hurts nor helps.

656
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: Is that right? Is that what you're saying?

657
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: Right?

658
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 12: So, if they're out searching because say I want to

659
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 12: hear where their child is, that's right. If they're out

660
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 12: searching because they've already told a worried about half what

661
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 12: happened to their they got a follow through with that

662
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 12: pictest story. They got to look sick with a.

663
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: Lot crime stories with Nancy Grace.

664
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 4: Police interview both parents as well as other witnesses, and

665
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 4: when parts of the story being told by Rebecca are inconsistent,

666
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 4: law enforcement asks if the couple will take a polygraph test.

667
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 4: Jake Harrow tells investigators, they will not take a polygraph

668
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 4: test without a lawyer present, and cooperation between the parents

669
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 4: and law enforcement ends. One witness tells police Harrow had

670
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 4: a black eye before Emmanuel went missing.

671
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: What they refuse a polygraph?

672
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 3: Uh?

673
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: A witness says mom had that black eye before the

674
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: attack and the Big five parking lot, Joy Benedict, What,

675
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 2: that's what witnesses are saying.

676
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 5: That's what some people have said.

677
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 6: But there's a lot of rumors that are spreading around

678
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 6: the area right now. Every neighbor, everybody in that community

679
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 6: seems to have an opinion. So I obviously don't know

680
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 6: if she had that black eye prior to Friday or not.

681
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 6: When I saw her, she had a black eye. It

682
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 6: could have been the beaches, it could have been in

683
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 6: the end stages.

684
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: Okay, what about refusing to take a polygraph? Joy?

685
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 6: I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but if someone asked

686
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 6: me to take a polygraph test, and that would make

687
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 6: me believe that maybe all of a sudden a suspect

688
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 6: and I would ask for a lawyer.

689
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 5: I mean, wouldn't you.

690
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: Know if my child were missing? No, let me just

691
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 2: spell it out. H E L L N oh no,

692
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 2: I would take the polygraph, I would slow down, gum

693
00:38:58,280 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: up the works.

694
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: Dave Mac, have you ever heard of Mark Class? Absolutely

695
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: Nancy the gold standard?

696
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 2: When his daughter poly Class was abducted from her mom's

697
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 2: own home during a sleepover, abused and murdered by Richard

698
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,959
Speaker 2: Allen May, he wrought in hell when the cops came

699
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 2: to classes door. You know what, he said, search me,

700
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 2: take my fingerprints, take my DNA, search my house, search

701
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 2: my car, search my place. Get me out of the

702
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: way so you can find who took my daughter.

703
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: Do you remember that, Dave Mac like it was yesterday?

704
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 14: Because nobody believed him. Nobody thought, you know, this is crazy.

705
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 14: Nobody gets kidnapped out of a bedroom during his sleepover,

706
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 14: out of their own home. But I do remember Mark

707
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 14: Class stood from me, he planted his feet and said,

708
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 14: eliminate me as a suspect and find the real person.

709
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: I mean, Dave, understand me.

710
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 2: I'm yelling at you. I'm yelling about this situation. I'm

711
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 2: yelling about this baby gone. And mommy and daddy won't

712
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: take a polygraph, so they can either be cleared or

713
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: be under the umbrella of suspicion.

714
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: So you know what, if you fail the polly.

715
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that, Dobey, Say, mommy and daddy fail

716
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: the polly, but they're innocent.

717
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: That will be born out.

718
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 2: A polygraph cannot come into evidence unless it's agreed upon

719
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 2: stipulated by the defense and the prosecution ahead of time

720
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 2: at trial, so that would never come into trial, so

721
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: a it would clear them be if they fail it.

722
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna look at them, but that doesn't mean

723
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 1: they're guilty.

724
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 2: They could lie about something as simple as hey, we've

725
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: smoked pot before.

726
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna lie about that. That has nothing to do

727
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: with the baby's disappearance.

728
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 2: My point is I've got a problem when mommy and

729
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 2: daddy won't take a polly.

730
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 1: So they could try to clear themselves so the cops

731
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: can move off. Do whoever really took the baby.

732
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 9: As well as I do that the cops put extremely

733
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 9: heavy weight on the results of a polygraph test, and

734
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 9: if it comes to actually form of deception, the relationship

735
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 9: becomes ad the serial they then become an.

736
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: Now have a cereal because they won't take it, all.

737
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 9: The more reason for them not to. Why do you

738
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 9: think they even ask for the polygraph test? The cops

739
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 9: already suspect mom. They already suspect dad. Why give them

740
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 9: additional evidence. I would not do it, And if I

741
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 9: were their counsel, I would tell them to sit down

742
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 9: and shut up and don't say a word till I

743
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 9: get there.

744
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: Okay, let me ask you a quickie. Do you have children?

745
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 10: No?

746
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: Okay.

747
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: I want you to have children, and I don't care

748
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 2: how you go about getting them. I want you to

749
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: have a baby to love, because do they when that happens.

750
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 2: I'm not going to even hold your last answer against

751
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 2: you like I normally do, because when you have a baby,

752
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: everything changes. Oh I thought I was so happy and

753
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: then I had the twins. There's nothing like it. And

754
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 2: I want you to have that joy because when you

755
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: have that child, you don't matter anymore.

756
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: They matter. They need to take the Polly.

757
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: And as a matter of fact, the Valdi Foundation agrees listen.

758
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 4: After Rebecca and Jake Harrow stop cooperating, the Evaldi Foundation

759
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 4: rescinds the reward money and ends their search efforts. The

760
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 4: founder says, we cannot in good conscience utilize our team

761
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 4: and resources when so much is missing. In this case.

762
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 4: A particular concern to us lies within the inconsistencies and

763
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 4: the details and the sudden decision by the mother to

764
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 4: in communication with law enforcement and our team. Something is

765
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 4: not writing this whole picture.

766
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: Okay, so it's not just me, it's the foundation debate

767
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 2: is right under the constitution, they don't have to take

768
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 2: a polygraph and if they failed it or it was inconclusive,

769
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 2: they would then be under the umbrella off suspicion.

770
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: And I say to that, so what this is not

771
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: about them?

772
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 2: This is about Can we see a picture of this baby,

773
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: the poor little thing.

774
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: If he's alive? Who has him? Is he being fed?

775
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: Is he alive? Do we have a chance to save him? Guys?

776
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: There's more listen.

777
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 4: Officer's service search warrant at the Harrow home in Cabazon.

778
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 13: Law enforcement is seen going in.

779
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 4: And out of the house for over an hour, and

780
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 4: Emmanuel's grandmother says his two year old sister was removed

781
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 4: from the custody of Rebecca and Jake Harrow.

782
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: Joey benedict that takes a lot to take a baby

783
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 2: away from a mom and dad. I can think of

784
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: dozens of examples right now where I wish the baby

785
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 2: had been taken, because now the babies did and Defacts Department,

786
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: Family Showner Services won't take the baby. They let it

787
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: stay there and die. So something had to lead authorities

788
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: to take the sister out of the Huh that said,

789
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 2: tell me about the search of their place, Well.

790
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 6: They searched the place initially from what we're told.

791
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 5: They also came back yesterday while.

792
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 6: We were there and we could see them knocking on

793
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 6: the door trying to get in.

794
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 5: But nobody was there. And that's kind of the issue.

795
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 5: We don't know where these parents are at least now.

796
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 5: They're not responding to my phone calls and text messages anymore.

797
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 6: Neither is the grandmother, as you just heard them say,

798
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 6: neither with the organization. So we don't know where they are.

799
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 6: But we know that they did search the home. We

800
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 6: don't know what they found, if anything, but it is

801
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 6: also our understanding that they took the two year old. Now,

802
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 6: what the family told me on Friday was that they

803
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 6: have six children together, that they are a blended family,

804
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 6: two biological children between the two of them, and four

805
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 6: others that they collectively have, so six total.

806
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: Doctor John Delatori.

807
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 2: For insic psychologists, it's not just about refusing to take

808
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 2: a Polly the parents are gone. Where are the parents?

809
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 2: I can tell you this much. They're not outsearching for

810
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 2: baby Emmanuel.

811
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,479
Speaker 1: So that's bad.

812
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 13: It's real bad, Nancy. And again it goes back to intentionality.

813
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 13: Why are they saying and why are they behaving in

814
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 13: an inconsistent dinner if they're in goal was to find

815
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 13: baby am Manual, why go into hiding again. I understand

816
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 13: not wanting to take the polygraph, but that doesn't mean

817
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 13: you go hide away and not interact with police anymore.

818
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 13: The clock is still ticking, and the best witness that

819
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 13: we have, such as it is, is Rebecca Harrow and

820
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 13: now she's gone to So Philip D.

821
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: Bay, you were explaining why you would tell your clients

822
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 2: not to take a polly. I guess you would tell

823
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: them not to search for their baby too. How would

824
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: that make them look bad? I'm just curious.

825
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 9: Well, initially they were, but now there is this cloud

826
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 9: of suspicion. Every move they make, every word they say,

827
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 9: every action they take is now being scrutinized. And they

828
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 9: don't want to be subject to that type of scrutiny.

829
00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,720
Speaker 9: I mean, what else can they do make.

830
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 2: More important than finding the baby? I can't wait for

831
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: you to have a baby. If you know or think

832
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: you know anything about the disappearance of baby and manual

833
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 2: just seven months old, please please dial nine zero nine

834
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 2: three eight seven eight three one three. You may think

835
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: it's insignificant, but it may not be. Nine zero nine

836
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: three eight seven eight three one three. And now we

837
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 2: remember an American hero. Sergeant Joe Oliveris, Department Criminal Justice, Texas,

838
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:39,720
Speaker 2: killed in the line of duty, leaving behind three grieving children.

839
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 2: American hero Sergeant Joe Oliveris Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,