1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Brilliance. I'm Joel Weber and I am Eric Bascnis, 2 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: the author of a new book. Congratulations. Thank you Joel. 3 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: You were a big inspiration. And uh, honestly it wasn't 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: for you. I don't think it'd be written. So thank 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: you very much. And but yeah, maybe a little bit 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: too much credit. Maybe a little bit too much credit. 7 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: But it did start. Once upon a time, we got 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: in a car and we went to Malvern, Pennsylvania, and 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: we interviewed a legend, Jack Bogel for Trillions, And what 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: came out of that interview actually ended up inspiring you. 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: What what was the part that lit a lightbulb for 12 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: you to write the book? Uh? I interviewed him two 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: other times before that, but that particular interview, what I 14 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: walked away from was how prophetic he was. Remember that's 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: the interview where he said, and I had never heard 16 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,319 Speaker 1: him say this before, he was predicting that a lot 17 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: of the large asset managers would mutualize. There would be 18 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: a mass mutualization of the fund industry, which basically means 19 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: they'd convert for for from being sort of for profit 20 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: to the vanguard structure, which nobody has copied since and 21 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: we'd say, well, why would they do that, Well, they're 22 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: going to get that desperate. Why, Well, because nobody's buying 23 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: their stuff anymore. And he went, you know, he basically 24 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: traced out what's going to happen twenty thirty years into 25 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: the future. And while that wasn't the only thing that 26 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: interests me after he passed away, that stuck with me 27 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: of as to like, maybe someone should try to get 28 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: some of this down on paper, not just the stuff 29 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: he predicted, but just how impactful because if some of 30 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: the stuff he predicts comes true, I mean he will 31 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: have really like completely, like not only reformed the industry, 32 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: but but I wouldn't say destroyed is not the right word, 33 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: but seriously shrunk it reformed it um just with just 34 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: his with his his sheer will of personality and that 35 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: Vanguard's structure um. And I think this is I mean, 36 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: how could you not be fascinated by by this guy 37 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: and this topic. So that's what that's what inspired me. 38 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: And it was that an interview in particular. I will 39 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: say I did find out later that he wrote a 40 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: book called Stay the Course, which was his last book, 41 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: and in that book he also talks about the mass mutualization. 42 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: So what we got in our interview, by the way, 43 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: was a lot of the material from what he wrote 44 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: in his last book, and so I was able to 45 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: sort of like tie up a lot of after reading 46 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: that book, our interview in that book, to really nail 47 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: down what he was trying to say. So the name 48 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: of the book is The Bogel Effect. If you're hearing this, 49 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: it is out now. I want you to pre order 50 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: as many copies as you want. We're gonna get Eric's 51 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: sales numbers up on Amazon and turn them into a bestseller. 52 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: And we're gonna be joined today by Annie Massa, our 53 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: colleague in Bloomberg News who covers asset managers and e 54 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: t f s, to talk some about your favorite insights 55 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: about Jack Bogel, who passed away about a year after 56 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:09,119 Speaker 1: we had that interview with him on Trillions, this time 57 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: on Trillians The Bogel Effect. Annie, welcome back to Trillians. Hi, 58 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Are you going to have Eric 59 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: autograph your copy at our book party on May five? 60 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: What the heck? I already have The Bogel Effect with me, 61 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: but Eric, you didn't autograph it yet. I'm gonna have 62 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 1: to hang you down in the office. Happily. I didn't 63 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: want to assume I'm not Stephen King. Some people like, 64 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: why didn't you autograph my book? I'm like, well, I mean, 65 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: because you know, there's probably be somebody who's like, why 66 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: did you autograph my book? You're not Stephen King. I 67 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: don't want to presume it, so but Annie, I'm happy 68 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: to do it. I will stop by your total. I 69 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: specifically hunted you out for an advanced copy though, and 70 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: drop it off of your desk. I had to ask 71 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: people around where does Annie sit Actually till I was 72 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: bugging them, they were mid writing. She said, a bunch 73 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: of near a bunch of writers, and they were like, 74 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: I'm there anyway. I found the desk and I put 75 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: it there. You put it there. And one day I 76 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: was working from home and someone actually wrote to me 77 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: and it was like, hey, I saw you have the 78 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: Bogel Effect on your desk? Can I borrow it? And 79 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, as long as you give it 80 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,239 Speaker 1: back to me, it's it's already working its way around 81 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: the mek Eric. Eric, We're gonna do five hot takes 82 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: from the Bogel Effect with you and I'm going to 83 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: start with number one, which was we excerpted this in 84 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: the latest issue of Bloomberg Business Week, and I want 85 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: you to talk about how Jack Bogel was actually a 86 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: punk rocker. Yeah, this is a metaphor. Everybody knows. I 87 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: love music. I love my pop culture metaphors, and I 88 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: don't take this lightly. But Bogel, whenever out here him speak, 89 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: I'd be like, man, he looks like a latter day 90 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: Henry Fonda or your grandfather, and you always had like 91 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: a sweater vest. He just looked very approachable and folksy, 92 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: but the words dropping out of his mouth were just 93 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: completely different. Like he'd be on Financial TV basically saying 94 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: like market timing is is an exercise and futility. Why 95 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: would you trade stocks? YadA, YadA? And he would basically, 96 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: you know, the whole the whole network is designed to 97 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: see how you can make money by trading stocks. I 98 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: mean that's just like and so here comes this guy 99 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: and he would do it. At the e t F conference, 100 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: he'd say E t F s are awful and rate 101 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: to an et F crowd. Then he'd go to Morning Star, 102 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: where there's a lot of active managers, say active manager, 103 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: you gotta lower your fees. You guys are awful. And 104 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: I found that to be kind of punkish. I mean, 105 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: this is a guy basically, uh, you know, purposely sort 106 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: of being contrarian in front of an audience. But then, 107 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: as I dug deep breath, thought the punk rock metaphor 108 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: was actually even more apropos because I found this interview 109 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: with Johnny Ramone, who a lot of people think the 110 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: Ramones started punk rock in seventy four, and if you 111 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: listen to that first album, it's pretty much the basis 112 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: of a lot of what came after, including grunge and alternative. 113 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: But he said, all we did was take out the 114 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: stuff from rock music that we didn't like, lose influence, 115 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: guitar solos, nothing that would get in the way of 116 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: the song. And I felt that addition by subtraction was 117 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: exactly what Bogel spent forty five years doing, removing all 118 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: the stuff he didn't think that you needed that got 119 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: in the way of your returns, management fees, turnover, trading costs, brokers, 120 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: human emotion, and he basically left the world with a 121 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: three basis point total market index fund, which is completely 122 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: frictionless exposure to to the whole enchilada. And that's why 123 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: I think it's timeless. Just as you listen to blitz 124 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: creep Bob today, it sounds just the same as it 125 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: did when you first heard it, or when somebody heard 126 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: it in n it's it's just because there's no fat, 127 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: there's no indulgence, there's really nothing that goes bad. And 128 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: to me, that with that metaphor, I think work well. 129 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: And then I talked to your colleague Pat at Business 130 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: we can he added another one, which was punk rock 131 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: back in the day was known to be sort of 132 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: fan owned, and here's Vanguard is customer owned. And so 133 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, and so some people are gonna 134 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: be like, oh, he's crazy for that metaphor, and I 135 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: I stand by it. I work it out in the book, 136 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: and I acknowledge that it might seem a little crazy 137 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: as certain people, But um, I think it's fun and 138 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: I think it's a it's a fun way to get 139 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: to some of this stuff because let's face it, mutual 140 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: funds are is interesting to most people as c spand 141 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: so I had to like go on Bob and beyond 142 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: to try to make this somewhat spicy. And I also 143 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: really wanted to give um a gen xer's take on 144 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: Bogel Most of the books UH from. He's obviously a 145 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: World War Two generation, but most of the books written 146 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: on Vanguard and Bogeler are written from a much more um, 147 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: you know, older writer, and I felt I wanted to 148 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: really freshen him up through my gen x lens. And 149 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: that's why. Also I took some chances with metaphors. Yeah, 150 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: that that punk rock metaphor really stuck out to me 151 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: in the book. I I love that. That's so, I mean, 152 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: it really sticks in your head. And I think that 153 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: there is like an aspect of Bogel where he was 154 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: so willing to be contrarian. He was so willing to 155 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: say the things that nobody else would say, and and 156 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: he didn't mind if people from either side were would 157 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: get angry with him. But then on the flip side, 158 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: he's also like a fairly religious person. So it's funny 159 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: to think think of them against that that backdrop. Yeah, 160 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: it's funny. Um Bogel I didn't realize just how much 161 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: he thought like a sort of revolutionary type guy. But 162 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: you know, he in his last book, he's eighty nine 163 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: years old. Um, he writes about taking the pathless traveled. 164 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: He was more interested in contrarian ideas. He says, I've 165 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: not I've not done anything in my nine decades but fight. 166 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: And then one of the last quotes is that Dylan 167 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: Thomas quote rage against the Dying of the Light. And 168 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: you know, you you read his book and you think 169 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: it's going to be about you know, expense ratios, but 170 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: there's a lot more in there, and you see this 171 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: guy really had a fiery spirit right till the end. Okay. 172 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: Hot take number two I think is the fact that, 173 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: as you write, and I think it's central part of 174 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: the book, crux of the book, if you will, the 175 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: index fund wasn't the thing that made Vanguard vanguard? Was it? 176 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: What was it? Yeah? No, I promised in the book 177 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: that index funds need a Vanguard more than Vanguard needed 178 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: index funds, simply because index funds would not be anywhere 179 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: near the big deal they are if they were expensive. 180 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: They're only a smash hit because they're cheap. And they 181 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: only started becoming a big hit when they sort of 182 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: hit the twenty basis point level, but they started off 183 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 1: at forty five basis points. But the Vanguard mutual ownership 184 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: structure was able to take them down a little by 185 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: little over forty five years. It took a long time, 186 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: but once they got to that low level, it just 187 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: became like the tipping point. But I'm telling you Wall 188 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: Streets general thing is not to charge anything that cheap, 189 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: especially to retail. They may chart let an institution get 190 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 1: exposure for under twenty basis points because the institution is 191 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: going to pony so much money. But for retail, um 192 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: they need to charge a lot. They like to charge 193 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: a lot. And even the Wells Fargo Fund and which 194 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: was the company credited with launching the first one, we 195 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: had Mac McGowan on the show about a year ago, 196 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: um that that index fund is still i think forty 197 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: five basis points and has a five percent load. And 198 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: that's with Vanguard in the picture. So you imagine no 199 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: Vanguard and no structure. Index funds probably exists, but they're 200 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: probably seventy maybe they're down to fifty basis points. And 201 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: then there's no way that this becomes a thing because 202 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: active would not within not is be judged by the 203 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: benchmark because you could not invest in the benchmark. You're 204 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: investing in the benchmark plus fifty to a hundred basis points. 205 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: So that is huge. And if the index fund never existed, 206 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: Vanguard's active mutual fund business, in my opinion, would be 207 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: six times bigger than anybody else. They're already the third biggest, 208 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: and that's with Bogel dumping on them constantly, well, I 209 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: should say dumping on active constantly. And if he had 210 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: supported those active funds, they're all cheaper than the average, 211 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: they would be bringing a gun to a knife fight 212 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: in every occasion, and I think they would be huge. 213 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: So also, the mutual ownership structure is now headed to 214 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: wealth management and it's charging a fraction of the feet. 215 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: So in other words, the lack of profit motive is 216 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: really the innovation here. Whatever it touches, it's gonna wreak 217 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: havoc on index funds. Happened to be the first thing 218 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 1: that it picked, and boy, wasn't a match made in heaven. 219 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: But the index fund, in my opinion, gets way too 220 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: much credit for the index fund revolution, if that makes sense, 221 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: That makes total sense. And I even mentioned I think 222 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: when you look out across the industry at Vanguard's biggest competitors, 223 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: the Fidelities, the black Rocks, those companies are either publicly 224 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: traded or privately held, and the the original goal at 225 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: least is never just how can we save money for investors? 226 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: But at Vanguard it was, and that was that was 227 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 1: a huge innovation. And now you look at marketing materials 228 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: from other companies and they'll specifically name check Vanguard and say, oh, 229 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: this fund cheaper even than Vanguard, because they know that 230 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: they have to show investors that they're keeping up with 231 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: Vanguard prices. And this is really what we used to call, 232 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: or I called the Vanguard effect, and I've used that 233 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: term a lot in my writing, and I riffed off 234 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: of that phrase with the Bogel Effect, simply because I 235 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: think the book really centers on him, and I feel 236 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: like his character it was so unique, like the structure 237 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: was unique, that they the two of them were powerful combo. 238 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: But I agree with you. What also attracted me to 239 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: this was just how how much of the flows are 240 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: dictated by Vanguard, even if they're not going into Vanguard funds. 241 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: It's astonishing. It's basically all the money in America pretty 242 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: much goes to Vanguard or people who copy their low 243 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: fee index funds. So in a way, the whole industry 244 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: is now governed by the mutual ownership structure, even if 245 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: they aren't mutually owned themselves. And it's really it's just 246 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: crazy the numbers, and it's funny, and we get so 247 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: wrapped up in meme stocks and um, you know, theme 248 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: funds and all the amount of money even crypto, The 249 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: amount of money that goes into Vanguard every day just 250 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: dwarfs all of that. Okay, Hot take number three Eric 251 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: could have been an alternate headline that I played with 252 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: for the excerpt in in Bloomberg business Week, which is 253 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: how Jack Bogel made Cathy Wood. That is crazy to me. Yeah, 254 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: it's it's highly ironic. There's a whole chapter dedicated is 255 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: because obviously think Vanguard Bogie. You think index funds and 256 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: e t f s and costs coming down, and we 257 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: cover all that for sure, but the rise of Vanguard 258 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: and Passive has is completely reforming. Active Active is not dying, 259 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: but it's evolving. And really what's going on, ironically, is 260 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: the more the core of the portfolio is filled with 261 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: cheap index funds for most people, the more they're going 262 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: to seek something completely opposite to add on top of it, 263 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: because they don't need the SP five stocks with some 264 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: small bets around it, which is what Legacy Active does 265 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: because they already own all those stocks. So cathy Wood 266 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: comes along and she's like, I'm going to buy all 267 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: of these really futuristic stocks. I'm gonna have Active Share 268 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: versus the SMP five hundred, which means only one percent 269 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: overlap in their portfolios. And I'm gonna give you a 270 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: chance at some serious upside like a call option, and 271 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: that sells, and it sells because it practically fits into 272 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: a portfolio. I think this also benefits crypto. I think 273 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: it benefits thematic investing. Basically, people are going to stomach 274 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: volatility much better because it's just this little satellite position 275 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: and they already have all the fundamentally sound serious investor 276 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: stocks and bonds covered for for basis points. And even 277 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: further is I think active share, or how different you 278 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: are from the benchmark, is going to replace alpha as 279 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: the main driver for flows for Active which I know 280 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: is something It's some people don't want to hear that, 281 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: but I think that's where it's going because people are 282 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: just seeking out something different, and it explains the durability 283 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: of cathy Wood's assets and thematic etf assets and I 284 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: think crypto to a degree. But um, this was part 285 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: of the chapter where I explained why Legacy Active failed 286 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: or is failing and seeing outflows, but why this new 287 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: crop of Active is popping up and has a real 288 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: spot in the Van Guardian future. That said, it's a 289 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: little bit like Kevin Bacon's acting career started as the 290 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: star of the movies and if you notice, over his 291 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: career shifted to more of a supporting role, and I 292 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: think Active will have to do the same. What do 293 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: you think Vogel would make of that. I feel like 294 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: he would hate to hear that. In any way his 295 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: legacy has gone to like, you know, bolstering arc or 296 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: or crypto. You know, he would not have liked it. 297 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: So Bogel was a Puritan, almost Jesus esque in his 298 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: ability to not take the bait anywhere, but not not 299 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: everybody's built like him. You know, they can buy into 300 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: what he's saying. But also I want to have a 301 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: little fun. You know, people generally like to speculate. He 302 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: would say, you don't need it. One time I was 303 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: an interview with him and I said, remember we had 304 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: smart beta and stuff, And I would say, well, um, 305 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: I think I used an example of an industry t 306 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: F semiconductors. I said, let's say you are you think 307 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: semiconductors are a great business, but there's not a lot 308 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: of semi stocks in the SP five yet, what about 309 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: buying a semiconductor e TF And his answer was, well, 310 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: then you're speculating, and anybody who speculates it is a 311 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: damn fool, you know, in his very like World War 312 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: two language, and that that's a tone when I interviewed him, 313 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: and I kept challenging him with these well what if 314 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: what if I felt like the box that sends out 315 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: the skeets and he was the skeet shooter, just blowing 316 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: each one boom boom boom. There was really nothing that 317 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: he didn't shoot down because at the end of his 318 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: life he was just that all you need is the 319 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: total market fund. But people are are not wired like him. 320 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: They're not maybe as strong or pure. And I think 321 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: I don't think I think he would understand it. I 322 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: just don't think he would agree with it. But this 323 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: is just the reality I'm trying to capture, and that's 324 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: all I want to do is be right and help 325 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: people have a guide for the future, and I think 326 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: there's something to this. But I would also say if 327 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: I if I met with him again now, I would say, 328 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: what about this though, What if the ten to twenty 329 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: that people use to have fun and is exciting and 330 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: has a lot of upside volatility and they speculate, what 331 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 1: if that has a behavioral benefit of keeping them distracted 332 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: so they don't touch that needs forty years to grow 333 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: to have maxim maximum potential and the compounding to kick in. 334 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: I still think he would shoot that down. But it's 335 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: a pretty good point, you have to admit. I think 336 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: I think he would say probably probably world War two. 337 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: Wouldn't stop bringing it up though. Okay, so hot take 338 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: number four relates to behavior, right, yeah, and this is another. 339 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: So there's all these books on behavior and psychology and 340 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: the importance of evidence and behavior and it's great, and 341 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: there's a whole renaissance in the advisory world. They're saying 342 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: that behavior is now our main value add and that's great. 343 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: You have to hang in there, even if it's better 344 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: to actually hang in there with an act of fund 345 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: probably than trade index funds. That the point is, you 346 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: you know, not selling when the market's getting scary and 347 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: maybe not buying at the top. People did that in 348 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: the past, and that behavioral gap became a real problem 349 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: for investors. But just introducing the index fund at three 350 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: basis points, in my opinion, completely changed behavior for the 351 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: better because people who people who are buying index fund 352 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: in their core are resigned to the fact there's nothing 353 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: better they can get, so when the market goes down, 354 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: they don't think themselves, well, my index fund is underperform warming, 355 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: let me hop to a better performing fund the way 356 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: they used to in the nineties with active They're just like, well, 357 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: I own the whole market for three basis points. Where 358 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: where else am I gonna go? This is such a 359 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: good deal, I'm gonna just hold it, And so they 360 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: that resignation is much easier if a three basis point 361 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: index fund exists, and it doesn't get brought up in 362 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: the books a lot. It's a lot about mentally keeping yourself, 363 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: and there is some of that, but just introducing that tool, 364 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: I think may behavior a hell of a lot easier 365 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: and gets it doesn't get enough credit um in my opinion, 366 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: because I have a chapter called the Art of doing 367 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: Nothing and how doing nothing is hard. It's an action 368 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: almost and you know, you've got the media and robin 369 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 1: Hood and commission free and a lot of things are 370 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: trying to entice you to trade your own brain. But 371 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: a cheap index fun I think, really makes it easy 372 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: um and doesn't really get brought up that much in 373 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: some of the other works around behavior. It's kind of 374 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: a funny twist though, now because host Vogel Vanguard is 375 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: pushing so hard into the advice business, so seemingly they're 376 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: also staking their future. Besides obviously they're a huge index 377 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: fund franchise, they're also staking their future on the ability 378 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: to convince customers that advice is useful, right, Yeah, And 379 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: Vanguard wrote a controversial advisor's Alpha and they said it's 380 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: worth two to three percent a year having an advisor. 381 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: I asked Vogel about advisors, and what he said was, look, 382 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: if an advisor is moving you from this active fund 383 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: to that active fund and trying to pick stuff for you, bad. 384 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: But if they're providing behavioral coaching and they're planning for 385 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: you and doing tax management, that's probably good. And if 386 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: they're using very low cost investments and not turning the 387 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 1: portfolio over um, then they're probably worth something. So he 388 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: was mixed on it, but it's a good point that 389 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: you bring up. I would almost bring up that that 390 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: Vanguard is in some ways sometimes pushing active a little 391 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: more lately. Although Bogel was never antiactive, he was more 392 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: anti greedy, expensive gravy train active. I think he thought 393 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: they should have shared economies of scale a little more gotten, cheaper, 394 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: and they would have served investors better. But um, Vanguard 395 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: and Bogel have a gap, forming to your point, Annie, 396 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: and that is a ch a chapter called Bogel Versus Vanguard, 397 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: and I explore that gap. I do think the Bogel 398 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: heads get a little too crazed about some of the 399 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: things Vanguard does. But I do think Vanguard is also 400 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: oddly shunning Bogel's legacy a little bit lately, and I 401 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: think they're both. I think for the Bogel Heads, most 402 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: of the money still goes to Bogelian funds like v 403 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: O O and v T I. They're very bogel Ish. 404 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: That's where the ball blob of money really goes. Maybe 405 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: at the edges there's some stuff that isn't Bogel that, 406 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: or there's some cash flowing, but the main stuff still there. 407 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,719 Speaker 1: And for the Vanguard the company. I would say, embrace 408 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: Bogel as much as you can. He was really great. 409 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it would be like work. If I worked 410 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: at Apple, I'd be like, hell, yeah, I work at 411 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: the company Steve Jobs created. This guy was great. Let's 412 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: talk to Jobs. Um. I just I would I would 413 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: just think that way. I work for Bloomberg. I'm fine. 414 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: I think Bloomberg's innovative guy would be happy. I'm proud 415 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: of that. I just don't get the sort of veering 416 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,719 Speaker 1: off of of the Bogel DNA in the way they 417 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: have lately. So I do think they're closer than people think. 418 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: But there is a gap forming between the Bogel heads 419 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: and the Vanguard crowd a little bit, and you can 420 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: you can see it on social media, and you literally 421 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: just wrote about the tension between the Bogel heads and Vanguard, right, 422 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: that's right. I wrote this story about how there, to 423 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: Eric's point, how there has become a bit of a 424 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: gap between Vanguard as it is now and Bogel. And 425 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: it's interesting because I think that if you look at 426 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: the competitive landscape, it's so rare that any company, to 427 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: say nothing of a financial services company, has a founder 428 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,479 Speaker 1: that inspires the kind of almost religious zeal And like 429 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: fanaticism that Bogel does. And people are still so excited 430 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: about Bogel and how he shaped investing principles. And the 431 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: Bogol has this online community of real Vanguard adherents who 432 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: are investors in the funds, who who post and share 433 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: uh ideas about investing, but also everything online. Um, they've 434 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: I think they've become a little bit frustrated with Vanguard 435 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: in some respects recently over over things that they feel 436 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: Bogel never would have let happen. One big recurring theme 437 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: and and Eric, I know you um go into this 438 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 1: in your book as well, is customer service. Some some 439 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: Bogol heads that I spoke to for the story mentioned 440 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 1: that they feel that there's been a decline in customer 441 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: service over time. Of course, Vanguard's a company that keeps 442 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: its costs low, as we know, but asset management is 443 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: moving in a direction where you need to spend more 444 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: and more money on things like customer service and technology, 445 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: and and some of them have felt that Van Guard 446 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: has left those principles behind a little bit. Yeah, Annie, 447 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: it's really interesting to bring that up. I there's a 448 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: chapter called quote some worry in the book where I 449 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: go over all these worries of passive and most of 450 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: them I think are hogwash, um, largely driven by active 451 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: managers who were a little jealous, or academics who just 452 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: really overthink things. I think at the end of the day, 453 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: a lot of money is just moved from you know, 454 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: an active fund that holds Apple, Google, and Microsoft to 455 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: a cheaper index fund that owns the same stock. That's 456 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: not a big deal, um. But to your point, as 457 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: I went down into some of the worries of passive, 458 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: one of the ones I got to his customer service 459 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: because if you don't charge anything, who will answer the phone? 460 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: This is honestly part of what the pushback on bitcoin 461 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: and DeFi has been. If you go completely off the system, 462 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: like who's gonna who can you call if you need help? 463 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: And this is a that's one of the biggest anti 464 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: DEFY arguments I've heard. Vogel was kind of like had 465 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: the same ethos as Defy in my opinion, um, you 466 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: know o g kind of style but not the same, 467 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: but similar. And there were even people interviewed who were 468 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: fans of Bogel. Uh, they privately told me they had problems, 469 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, getting through. They had recommended Vanguard to some 470 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: relatives and the relatives frustrated on the call lines taking 471 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: too long. Also, if you go to the bogel Head site, 472 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: they even have people crying out there that it's a problem. 473 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: So if the bogel Head site is saying that, then 474 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: you know you have an issue. And I also went 475 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: to yelp dot com where Vanguard gets a one point 476 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: five stars at a five. You know what else? You 477 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: know what else gets one point five stars the Walmart 478 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: on Columbus Boulevard, which if one one user described as 479 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: the seventh circle of hell. Um. So if if you're 480 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: the same as the Walmart in Philly, you need to 481 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: address that. And Vanguard, I think is too good to 482 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: and have worked too hard to have a reputation that 483 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: is really stellar to let this drag them down. So 484 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, my I think they should do is take 485 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: some of them more. Instead of the profits going to 486 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: lowering fees they're already like basically nothing, you know, continue 487 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: to use those to help customer service. I think their 488 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: investors okay paying five instead of four or four instead 489 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: of three, Um, if they have better customer service, because 490 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: you're already at your cheap levels, UM, but bogel Um, 491 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: this is part of what possibly could bring down Vanguard. UM. 492 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 1: Is this customer service thing at least or at least 493 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: harm them. One person I spoke with, Aaron arvin Land, 494 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: the Philippine inquirer who's covered Vanguard locally, UM said that 495 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: was their achilles heel and a couple of people so 496 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: the same thing. They said. They're dealing with it better, 497 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: but that's something UM that possibly could slower their growth. 498 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: One sort of conspiracy theory I've heard to that point is, uh, 499 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: the idea that Vanguard almost doesn't care, like they're like, 500 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: let people buy Vanguard funds from Fidelity, like in Fidelity accounts, 501 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 1: no problem, We'll just keep the cost slow here and 502 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: leave the customer service to what you know, choose your platform. 503 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 1: There are plenty of places to buy Vanguard funds, so 504 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: that's not you know, that's just kind of a conspiracy 505 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: theory that's out there. But advisors I spoke to you 506 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: have said, We've seen people say I'm fed up with 507 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 1: the direct from Vanguard customer service. I love the funds 508 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: and I still want to be in the funds, but 509 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: I just go to some other brokerage to buy them. Yeah, 510 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: and it's funny you say that. I've also heard a 511 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory to that point, that that's why they're subtly 512 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: making the e t F share class a little cheaper 513 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: so people migrate into that share which then put them 514 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: over other brokers and away from the Vanguard sort of 515 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: mutual fund family. And I mean, honestly, they didn't start 516 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 1: doing that until after Bogill passed away, and I'm sure 517 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: he wouldn't have loved it, given he had some complicated 518 00:27:53,720 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: feelings with E t S. Okay, hot take number five. 519 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: There are many more hot takes in the book. Bogel's 520 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: dream is far from realized. That's a little crazy to me. 521 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: I mean, of us funds are Vanguard, and that's not 522 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: good enough. Eric. What's the number gonna be? How big 523 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: does Vanguard have to get before his dream is realized? Yeah? 524 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: You know when we when I wrote the E t 525 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: F book six years ago, that's how you and I 526 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: actually met. I discovered something in my research that just 527 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,479 Speaker 1: blew me away, excited me and made me um. You know, 528 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: it was one of those moments when you when you 529 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: go into a research project that you need to give 530 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: you energy and inspiration, and that in our case was 531 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: that the SEC helped invent the E t F. I 532 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: did not know that from all the books I read. 533 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,239 Speaker 1: In this case, that thing in this research was this 534 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: sentence that was buried in one of Bogel's books that 535 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: hardly anybody read, called Character Counts, which is just his 536 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: speeches to the crew. He says this, The first sign 537 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: that Vanguard's mission has created a better world for the 538 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: investor will be when our market share begins to erode. 539 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: Can someone out there find me another example of where 540 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: the CEO told the crew and the staff like, I 541 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: want our market share to a road. I mean, I 542 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: just not just asset management, Let's try all of business. 543 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: I just has that ever happened? It really hits to 544 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: the different trip he was on. But he said this 545 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: in when Vanguard had less than one percent of the 546 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: assets they had today. That's how far into the future 547 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: he could see. He saw Vanguard getting big and it 548 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: was starting to coin draction in ninety one. That was 549 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: about sixteen seventeen years after it started. And now we're 550 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: in a world where their market share is growing and 551 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: growing and growing. It's not quite thirty pc, but it's 552 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: it's over a quarter and it's quickly going there though, 553 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: and I think it might hit fort before there's any erosion. 554 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: And what Bogel said that for were was because he 555 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: knows that the only way to stop Vanguard is to 556 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: get cheap like them. Get He liked the word stewardship fiduciary. 557 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: He would force everyone else sort of kicking and screaming 558 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: to his level or Vanguard's level, and at that point, 559 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: possibly the Vanguard's market share would would begin to top 560 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: off and then a road And the problem with that 561 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: vision for asset managers it means you're selling stuff that 562 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: makes you no money. So it's almost as if he 563 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: envisioned a utopia for investors, but is a total healthscape 564 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: for the asset management industry. And this will take twenty 565 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: years to play out. But again, that's why I said, 566 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: this book is as much about the past and the 567 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: president as is about the future. But that is again 568 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: and he said it in and the whole things it 569 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: blew my mind helped me kind of really cement the 570 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: fact this guy was just marching to a beat of 571 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: a different drummer and excited me to sort of finish 572 00:30:58,080 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: off this book and have his name in the title. 573 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: I struggled with titles, but I was like, I think 574 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: Bogel should be in the title. I think he should 575 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: be put forth front and center. I put Vanguard in 576 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: the subtitle. But anyway, so that's I think. Another sort 577 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: of hot take from the book is Bogel's dream hasn't 578 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: even quote begun, not even begun to be realized, based 579 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: on what he said, and he thought that way all 580 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: the way up until the end of his life. Another 581 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: kind of surprising thing he said in his final years 582 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: was he mentioned this whole debate over UH over common 583 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: ownership and how index fund firms like Vandguard and Blackrock 584 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: have become such huge shareholders in corporate America. It causes 585 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: these weird distortions, and it I think it shows to 586 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: your point on on that speech that he was willing 587 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: to think through I think way ahead about how something 588 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: he created could have of unintended consequences, um and and 589 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: he just saw so far out into the future and 590 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: and was willing to be open about it in a 591 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: way that I think it's pretty rare for any kind 592 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: of person in a position of leadership, certainly in corporate 593 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: America to be. It's also, um, you know, this was 594 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: the nineties. This is just as the nineties economy was starting. 595 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: It's interesting to me going back to that one book, 596 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: Character Counts, which while it was one of his lesser 597 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: selling books, is really interesting because you get to see 598 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: Bogel speaking in the in the eighties and in the nineties, 599 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm old enough to remember those decades, 600 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: especially the eighties. There's a speech he gives in at 601 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: the Christmas party and that's when the movie Wall Street 602 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: came out where Gordon Gecko is out there saying greed 603 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: is good, and Oliver Stone said he did it as 604 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: a warning movie, but it inspired all these traders to 605 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: go in and try to make a ton of money 606 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: on Wall Street at the same time, within the month 607 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: basically the movie that audiences are watching that speech, Bogel 608 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: is talking to the to the crew about like, well, 609 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: if we can, you're gonna keep lowering fees a little bit, 610 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: we'll be on the right tracks, stay the course, YadA, YadA. 611 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: It sounded exactly like the way he spoke in and 612 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: that is interesting to me is how laser focused he 613 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: could be despite the culture and the times changing and seven. 614 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: Nobody was asking for cheap They didn't. It just wasn't 615 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: a big deal in the nineties, they weren't. Um. That's 616 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: again that the serious vision by him. That was fun 617 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: to deconstruct for sure. Okay, Eric, congrats again on the book. Um, 618 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: although we failed to mention my favorite quote in the book, 619 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: which you got to speak to Michael Lewis, What did 620 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: Michael Lewis have to say about Jack Bogel? Yeah. I 621 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: was really curious what Michael Lewis thought of Bogel, because 622 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: Michael Lewis seems like a very curious guy, and he's 623 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: going to all these interesting corners of the financial world, 624 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: and I thought, you know, I wonder why he's never 625 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: written about Vanguard, and also read he had vest in Vanguard, 626 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: and so I sort of asked them, you know, I 627 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: asked then interview him and he said yes, and we 628 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: talked for about half an hour, and over the interview, 629 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: I think he started to see what I saw. Um, 630 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: And I won't go into details, but one of the 631 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: things he asked, he goes, you know, um, he was 632 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: shocked that indexing took so long to take off, because 633 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: when he read when he first read A Random Walk 634 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: down Wall Street by Bert Malkiel in the eighties. He thought, 635 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: why isn't everybody doing this so obvious? Um, So he 636 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: was really interested in that aspect. So I explored why 637 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: it took so long heavily in the book, because I'm like, 638 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: if Michael Lewis thinks that's interesting, I should probably hang 639 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: there for a little bit. Um. But then he said, um, 640 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: he started to get It's funny. Michael Lewis started asking 641 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: me questions halfway through the interview, and he says, like, 642 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: how much money did Bogel have when he died? And 643 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: I said eighty million? And he about fell off his cherry, said, 644 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say two billion, and 645 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: even then I would have thought, wow, he really left 646 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: a lot on the table. And then he said this, 647 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 1: which is very eloquent. He could, he commented, are trillions 648 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: of dollar or and he only made a few million 649 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: for himself. In the history of Wall Street, the ratio 650 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: of money touched the money taken was never so high, 651 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: which I almost put that on the cover because I 652 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: thought that really captured it. Um. But again I didn't 653 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: want it to be so much about Bogel, the sort 654 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: of like saintly guy who took less money because let's 655 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: face at eighty millions and most people still a ton. 656 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: And people close to him back in the seventies said 657 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: that he was well paid. He never he always had 658 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: a nice house. He just didn't go crazy with the 659 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: billionaire thing. He just kept a nice, upper middle class 660 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: sort of existence. Um. He just didn't need more. And 661 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: one of his books is called enough Even. But I 662 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 1: did find one thing he did need a lot of, 663 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: and that was adulation. You know, he could never get 664 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: enough praise. And that was something his son talked about. 665 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: And in the chapter on explaining Bogel, I talked about 666 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: his ego and some of his deficits. But um, I 667 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: think that made a miscast for Wall Street. Most people 668 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: who want agilation make go in the arts of the priesthood. Um, 669 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: he's being able to do a mutual of fun management. Um. 670 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: And but it actually worked out well to have somebody 671 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: who was arguably miscast in this industry, as it really helped, 672 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: I think, move the industry towards a better, more fiduciary place. Eric, 673 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: congrats again on the Bogel effect any thanks too much 674 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: for joining us on trillion. Thanks thanks for listening to 675 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: Trillions until next time. You can find us on the 676 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,720 Speaker 1: Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Warber. 677 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: Else you'd like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. 678 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: We're on Twitter. I'm at Joel Webber Show. He's at 679 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: Eric Faltunas. This episode of Trillions was produced by Magneth Hendrickson. 680 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: Francesca Leave is the head of Bloomberg podcast by