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Speaker 1: When you pull up to game night, ay, all new Camry,

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Speaker 1: Is it possible to be two different things at the

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Speaker 1: same time?

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Speaker 4: Can you like dogs and cats?

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Speaker 1: Can you be a horse and a giraffe at the

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Speaker 1: same time?

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Speaker 4: Can something taste salty and sweet? Can a dress be

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Speaker 4: black and blue and white and gold?

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Speaker 1: In today's podcast, we talk about the centuries old scientific

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Speaker 1: debate about light.

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Speaker 4: Is light a particle or a wave?

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Speaker 1: Or is it both? Hello, I'm Jorge and I'm Daniel.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe.

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Speaker 1: In which we try to explain the whole universe and

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Speaker 1: everything in it, including light.

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Speaker 4: Now, I'm a tunis I draw something called PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: And I'm a particle physicist. During the day, I smash

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Speaker 1: particles together at the Large Hadron Collider.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, today on the program, we're going to talk

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Speaker 4: about the nature of light.

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Speaker 1: That's right. People have been arguing for centuries. What is light?

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Speaker 1: Is it made out of particles? Is it made out

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Speaker 1: of waves? Something else? Is it tiny little puppies screaming

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Speaker 1: through space? People have gone back and forth on the issue,

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Speaker 1: and today even the topic is not yet totally settled.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to be taking you through that history

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Speaker 1: and breaking it down.

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Speaker 4: It's one of the most mind blowing questions in human

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Speaker 4: scientific history.

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Speaker 1: That's right, what is light made out of? So as usual,

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Speaker 1: before we dig into it, we went out and we

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Speaker 1: asked people on the street, what do you think light

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Speaker 1: is made out of? What do people know about light?

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Speaker 4: Is light a particle or is it a wave.

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Speaker 1: Here's what people had to say. Do you think light

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Speaker 1: is made out of particles or waves or both or neither? Photos? Yeah, photons? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you think light's a particle. I think it's waves,

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Speaker 1: youth waves. Yeah, cool, it's.

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Speaker 5: Both, I think because it like moves like a wave,

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Speaker 5: but it also has properties of a particle and there's

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Speaker 5: nothing saying it can't people, okay, light, I think they're

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Speaker 5: made of wavelength Yeah all right.

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Speaker 4: Well it's interesting because I think all of the answers

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Speaker 4: are right.

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Speaker 1: Or none of them are rest or both.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, it seems like a lot of people reflected the

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Speaker 1: fact that there is a controversy like that. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's not really well described, but either those some people

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Speaker 1: went all in, you know, like it's a photon or

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Speaker 1: it's a wave, or it's a wave.

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Speaker 4: Length right, Yeah, that was my favorite one.

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Speaker 1: I want to be a wavelength, Like I've heard of

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Speaker 1: this word.

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Speaker 4: It sounds really cool and scientific. I'm just going to

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Speaker 4: throw it out there.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, maybe I get some points. We award

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Speaker 1: no points people, no points, that's right. There's no price.

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Speaker 1: Your price is you get to be on our podcast,

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Speaker 1: and maybe we even make fun of you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I guess what you mean is

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Speaker 4: nobody sort of fell for the trap, right, Like nobody said, oh,

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Speaker 4: of course it's a particle, or nobody said, oh of

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Speaker 4: course it's a wave. Most people sort of knew that

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Speaker 4: there's some sort of duality there, something weird going on.

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Speaker 1: That's right, That science is having some trouble, some difficulty

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Speaker 1: coming up with a way to describe what light is.

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Speaker 1: And that might seem surprising you because light is everywhere, right,

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Speaker 1: and it runs the universe. It's streaming through the Solar

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Speaker 1: system from the Sun, illuminating our lives, empowering everything on Earth.

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Speaker 1: So you think this would be sort of a high

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Speaker 1: priority topic to figure out, like what is this stuff?

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Speaker 1: What is it made out of?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I mean, like, what are we paying you for, Daniel,

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Speaker 4: if not to figure these types of questions out.

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Speaker 1: I was just about to figure out what light was

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Speaker 1: when you called and said it's time to do this podcast.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, science was totally destroy your train of thought.

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Speaker 1: There, that's right. Reflect on that for a minute or again.

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Speaker 4: But no, Yeah, I'm a California taxpayer. Part of my

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Speaker 4: salary goes to paying your salary, Like you know, one

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Speaker 4: million of a percent.

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Speaker 1: That's true. Yes, so you're saying you did pay taxes

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Speaker 1: last year. Again, that's another topic.

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Speaker 4: On air Daniel anyway, So that's an interesting question, like

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Speaker 4: is light a waver or particle? And it's weird that

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Speaker 4: we don't know, But maybe let's break it down a

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Speaker 4: little bit. What is it? Like, what are we actually

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Speaker 4: talking about when we say that light could be a

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Speaker 4: particle or light could be a wave, like you know,

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Speaker 4: most people probably think of light as just like just

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Speaker 4: like brightness, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The thing to understand here is that we try

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Speaker 1: to describe light in terms of things we know, and

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Speaker 1: that's what science is. Right. You see something weird and new,

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Speaker 1: and you wonder, oh, is it like this other thing

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Speaker 1: I know? So we've observed different kinds of phenomena in

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Speaker 1: the world, like you see waves, right, you go to

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Speaker 1: the beach, you see waves and water. You drop a

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Speaker 1: rock in a small puddle, you see waves. We know

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Speaker 1: what waves are, and we see different phenomena. We try

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Speaker 1: to categorize them in terms of things we know, right. So,

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Speaker 1: like when people were studying sound, they discovered, oh, sound

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Speaker 1: is actually a wave. You know, it's a compression wave

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Speaker 1: in the air and that's cool because he says, oh,

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Speaker 1: I already know how the math for waves works, right,

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Speaker 1: I've seen waves in water. I've seen waves and other stuff.

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Speaker 4: You can describe it with like equations, right, yeah, wavy equations.

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Speaker 1: That's right, very solid, unwavy physics to describe waves. And

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of science that's gone into understanding waves.

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Speaker 1: So if you can cram it into that box and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is just another example of something we already know,

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Speaker 1: then you're taking a huge leap forward. Right. So that's

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Speaker 1: something people try to do is say like, look, can

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Speaker 1: we describe this in terms of other things we know?

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Speaker 4: So we need like, you know, we know about light,

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Speaker 4: but we want to know how it behaves and what

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Speaker 4: makes it work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and just on a more general level, you try

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Speaker 1: to see something new, you try to describe in terms

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Speaker 1: of things you know, Like, say you taste a new

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Speaker 1: kind of fruit and you be like, oh, it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit like a cherry and a little bit like

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Speaker 1: an apple, and a little bit like you know, it's

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Speaker 1: got a hint of smokiness to it or whatever.

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Speaker 4: You know, You're like, it's a chapel.

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Speaker 1: It's a chapel. How has nobody ever invented that the

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Speaker 1: cherry apple chapel. Oh my gosh, somebody, if our lawyer

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Speaker 1: is listening, get on that right away. Copyright that idea.

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Speaker 4: I'll reserve ww dot chapel dot com. Up.

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Speaker 1: That's right. So that's the basic idea is we have

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Speaker 1: these things we've seen. You see something new, you don't

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Speaker 1: want to create a whole new category. You want to

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Speaker 1: fit into one of the existing categories.

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Speaker 4: So we sort of knew about light. It came from

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Speaker 4: the sun. It you know, if you light a fire,

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Speaker 4: it spreads down into a room. And so we're like,

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Speaker 4: what's going on? Like what what best describes how this

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Speaker 4: light you know, comes from a source and bounces off

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Speaker 4: the walls and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, that's the question. And so we'd seen things

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Speaker 1: like waves. So what do we mean when we say

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Speaker 1: a wave, Like, how could a light be a wave? Well?

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Speaker 4: How can anything be a wave?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? How can anything be a wave? A wave is

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Speaker 1: a funny thing because it's not a thing itself. It's

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Speaker 1: a property of some medium, Like it's.

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Speaker 4: The take a rip on something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, Like if you do the wave at

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Speaker 1: a baseball game, you know, there's nothing to the wave itself.

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Speaker 1: It's just a bunch of people moving up and down

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Speaker 1: and waving their hands, right.

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Speaker 4: Or like a sound wave is just like air molecules

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Speaker 4: kind of bumping forward.

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Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, exactly. Or a wave in the ocean

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Speaker 1: is just it's an arrangement of the water, right, It's

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Speaker 1: a way the water gets compressed and then stretched out

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Speaker 1: and compressed and then gets stretched out. So that's an

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Speaker 1: important thing about a wave is that it moves in

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Speaker 1: this way through a medium.

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Speaker 4: M Okay, so that's a wave. It's like a propagation,

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Speaker 4: it's like a ripple through something. But then so then

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Speaker 4: what would you call a particle? A particle is different

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Speaker 4: than that.

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Speaker 1: A particle is different than that, and it's a totally

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Speaker 1: different kind of thing, you know, And to be a

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Speaker 1: particle physicist, it's kind of odd. But the concept of

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Speaker 1: a particle is not that really well defined, you know.

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Speaker 1: But when I think of a particle, I think of

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Speaker 1: taking matter and breaking it down to its smallest pieces.

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Speaker 1: Like if something's made out of particles, it means that

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Speaker 1: at its smallest level, it's made out of these little

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Speaker 1: bits that can't be opt into smaller bits, and that

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Speaker 1: they're localized. They're like small and contained. Right. If you

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Speaker 1: discover that something is made of particles, you expect it

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Speaker 1: to be like mostly empty space, but with these little

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Speaker 1: dots of matter.

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Speaker 4: Like you would take something and then you smash it

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Speaker 4: to bit and just keep smashing, and at some point

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Speaker 4: you're going to get to these little like baby balls

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Speaker 4: or like little tiny pellets that you can't break down anymore.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, It's like seeing a picture on your

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Speaker 1: computer screen and discovering it's made out of pixels, right,

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Speaker 1: and that those pixels are the basic elements and they

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Speaker 1: come together to make the whole picture. So figuring out

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Speaker 1: that something is made of particles means that there's made

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Speaker 1: of these these little bits that are not connected to

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Speaker 1: each other, right, they're separated. So a wave and a

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Speaker 1: particle in nature are totally different kinds of things. Right Now,

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Speaker 1: water of course is made of particles, but can have

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Speaker 1: waves in it, right.

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Speaker 4: But I think maybe what's important here is that, you know,

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Speaker 4: particles we tend to think of as little tiny it's

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Speaker 4: they can bounce around, right and like go in a

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Speaker 4: street line and then hit something else and then bounce back,

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Speaker 4: or you know, kind of fly through space, right, in

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Speaker 4: a discrete little package exactly.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly the right way to say. It's a discrete

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Speaker 1: little package. Right. So things that are made of particles

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Speaker 1: we think of as being discrete little bits, and they

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Speaker 1: they're broken up into these little pieces, and you're right,

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Speaker 1: they move in straight lines. Right, Like you throw a rock,

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Speaker 1: you roll a smooth ball across the surface, you expect

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Speaker 1: it to move in a straight line.

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Speaker 4: So that's kind of what we mean by a wave

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Speaker 4: and a particle, that's right. Yeah, And so the question

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Speaker 4: is like, is light a ripple on a medium? Is

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Speaker 4: that what light is? Or is it like actual little

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Speaker 4: things and move around in space?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 1: Does it have its own stuff to it? Right? Or

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Speaker 1: is it just a way something else moves right? That's

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Speaker 1: sort of another way to phrase the question.

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Speaker 4: Right, And those are two pretty different pictures of reality, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: light could be little pellets flying around, or it could

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Speaker 4: be some sort of ripple on a medium. To us,

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Speaker 4: in our intuitive sense, it couldn't be anywhere different, right.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah. It's like you can't be a Democrat

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Speaker 1: and a Republican, you know, just you have to pick one,

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Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, if you vote it you can be

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Speaker 1: or you could be neither. I suppose you shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: both though, Yeah, that would be a violation of some

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Speaker 1: election law not recommended to violate elections, right, that's right. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 1: speaking of political shouting matches, this one, this historical scientific

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Speaker 1: shouting match, began all the way back with the Greeks, right, Democratus,

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Speaker 1: he's the guy sort of the first atomist. He's the

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Speaker 1: first person to look at the world and to say,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe everything's made out of tiny little bits,

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Speaker 1: not just light, but also matter. And that was sort

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Speaker 1: of the birth of that idea that maybe everything around

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Speaker 1: us that seems macroscopic is made out of tiny little things,

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Speaker 1: smaller than we can see. And you know, as usual,

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Speaker 1: when somebody comes up with a good idea, they overextended.

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Speaker 1: They're like, well, maybe if rocks are made out of stuff,

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Speaker 1: then water is also made out of particles, and maybe

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Speaker 1: even light is made out of particles. You know, at

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Speaker 1: the time, seemed like a totally a crazy reach.

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Speaker 4: And that makes sense, right, because light seems to go

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Speaker 4: in a straight line, it seems to bounce off of things,

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Speaker 4: So why couldn't light just be like little tiny little

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Speaker 4: pellets that bounce around the room and then eventually hit

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Speaker 4: your eye and then that's how you see something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly seems to have some of those particle

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Speaker 1: like properties, right, it moves in straight lines, it certainly

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Speaker 1: would be going really really fast. At the time, people

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Speaker 1: thought that light traveled instantly. Right. They thought that light

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Speaker 1: instantaneously went from like the sun to the earth, or

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Speaker 1: or if you started a fire, that the light would

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Speaker 1: immediately illuminate the room. Now, we of course know that

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Speaker 1: it just happens super duper crazy fast, too fast for

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Speaker 1: those folks to ever measure, so it's almost like it's instantaneous.

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Speaker 1: But they thought that these things just moved instantly through

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Speaker 1: space and filled up the room. Okay, and I want

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Speaker 4: So initially we thought light was or the Greeks thought

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Speaker 4: that light was a.

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Speaker 1: Particle, right, And I think we have to qualify that

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Speaker 1: because it makes the Greeks sound really smart. Just come

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Speaker 1: up with this idea of atoms and all that stuff, and.

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Speaker 4: You say this before you're really down on the Greeks.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think people give the Greeks too much credit

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Speaker 1: for that, because, as I've probably said to you before,

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Speaker 1: the Greeks had lots and lots of ideas. You know,

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Speaker 1: they had like thousands of these ideas about how the

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Speaker 1: way the world works. And yeah, one of them was

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Speaker 1: close to true. But like, if we're going to do

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Speaker 1: some accounting, let's also remember the nine hundred and ninety

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Speaker 1: nine ones that were totally off base, you know, and

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Speaker 1: give them credit for those.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, find that Greek we thought life was just little

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Speaker 4: puppies and be like seeing you guys also thought there

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Speaker 4: were puppies. You can't be that smart, that's right.

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Speaker 1: But he's a cool idea, So give him credit for

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Speaker 1: having that idea. I don't know what they were smoking

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Speaker 1: when they came up with it, but I'd like to

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Speaker 1: figure out where to find some. And then it was

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Speaker 1: thousands of years later before people had another idea. It

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Speaker 1: was a Descartes, the guy who's famous for you know,

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Speaker 1: I think therefore I am he thought about He was

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Speaker 1: one of the earliest scientists, not just philosopher, but a scientist,

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Speaker 1: back in the day when you know, science really was

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Speaker 1: part of philosophy, and he thought that light was waves.

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Speaker 4: What made him think it was waves?

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't think he had much justification for it.

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Speaker 1: This is back in the early days when science wasn't

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Speaker 1: really an empirical study where you didn't like go out

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Speaker 1: and do experiments to test your hypothesis. It just made

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Speaker 1: more sense to him for light to be like these

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Speaker 1: wave like disturbances.

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Speaker 4: Right, which kind of makes sense, right, Like if you

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Speaker 4: have a speaker in a room emitting sound waves, it's

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Speaker 4: not that different from like a light bulb in the

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Speaker 4: middle of the room emitting light all around it. Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And there's some things that light does that don't

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Speaker 1: really that don't really seem consistent with particles, you know,

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Speaker 1: like the way light bends through a lens, right, it's

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Speaker 1: called we call in science, we call that refraction. You know,

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Speaker 1: when light changes from going through air to glass, it

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Speaker 1: bends in this weird way. That's something that's very common

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Speaker 1: for waves, right.

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Speaker 4: And a particle wouldn't bend inside of a lens.

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Speaker 1: No, No, a particle that's definitely a wave like behavior, yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: not particle like behavior. And so Descartes saw that and

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Speaker 1: he's like, oh, you know, we have optics, we have

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Speaker 1: these lenses. So maybe light is a wave. But if

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Speaker 1: light is a wave, then it opens this other question.

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Speaker 1: What's doing the waving?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 1: I mean with sound, you know it's the air and

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Speaker 1: the water waves. Obviously it's the water. But if light

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Speaker 1: is a wave, then what is waving?

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Speaker 4: Meaning? Like, if light is a ripple, what is it.

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Speaker 1: A ripple of that's right? Yeah, what's doing the rippling? Right?

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Speaker 1: If it's a wave, it has to be a wave

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Speaker 1: in something, because a wave is just a description of

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Speaker 1: some other form of matter rippling, right.

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Speaker 4: It couldn't just be like stuff that we can't see.

436
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you have to invent some stuff that

437
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 1: we can't see. Right. So to explain light being a wave,

438
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 1: you have to invent this universe filled with stuff. Or

439
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 1: there has to be that stuff between us and the

440
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 1: sun for example, right, which is a huge amount of

441
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,959
Speaker 1: this new stuff you're inventing. And if you're looking at

442
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 1: the stars, there has to be that stuff between you

443
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 1: and the stars. Right. So now we're talking about billions

444
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,679
Speaker 1: of miles of this new stuff, and Descartes, you know,

445
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 1: didn't know. So he just gave it a name. He's

446
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 1: called I don't even know how to pronounce it, but

447
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 1: he called it plenum. And he thought, well, there must

448
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:32,919
Speaker 1: be if light is a wave, there must be some

449
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,199
Speaker 1: stuff that's doing the waving, and we'll just give it

450
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,160
Speaker 1: a name, and maybe we'll be right, and then we'll

451
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:37,920
Speaker 1: be famous forever.

452
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,119
Speaker 4: Isn't it is that different than the ether?

453
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: It's similar in concept, right, it's a different idea, but

454
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 1: it's similar in concept that like, if light is a wave,

455
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 1: it must be waving through something, and we don't know

456
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,360
Speaker 1: what it is. We just invent something to and give

457
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,879
Speaker 1: it a name as a placeholder, so when later people

458
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: do the hard work of actually discovering it, we'll still

459
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:56,159
Speaker 1: get credit.

460
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 4: Okay, So it was a particle. Light was a particle,

461
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 4: then was a wave, and then what happened.

462
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 1: Well, then Newton came along, right, And Newton's a really

463
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 1: smart guy, and everybody knows that he's famous for thinking

464
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: about gravity, but he also liked to think about optics

465
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 1: and lenses. And he thought for sure that light was

466
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: a particle because he saw it moving in straight lines,

467
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: and he saw distinct shadows. But you know, Newton also

468
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: did a lot of experiments with optics. He studied prisms,

469
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 1: and he saw light bending, and he saw light splitting

470
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 1: into colors. And you can't explain that if light is

471
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 1: a particle, but he tried. You know, he's like, well,

472
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: maybe when a particle hits the glass, it gets some

473
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: sort of weird sideways force and that makes it bend.

474
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 1: But you know, that's not really an explanation. That's just

475
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: sort of like a I don't really understand it. But

476
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 1: maybe it's something like this.

477
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 4: Like, if light is a particle, why does it split

478
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 4: into the rainbow kind of thing?

479
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And you know this is again back in

480
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: the day when empirical studies of science weren't the main

481
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 1: way to answer questions. It was mostly thinking in your

482
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: head about things that made sense to you, and then

483
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 1: they would argue about them.

484
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 2: Right.

485
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 1: A lot of the way scientific disputes used to be

486
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,719
Speaker 1: resolved was people would argue about it and then say, well,

487
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: that makes no sense, so it can't be true. And

488
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: we know now, of course, that the universe doesn't always

489
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 1: make sense to us. What's real isn't necessarily the things

490
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 1: that we would have accepted as true or accepted as

491
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 1: a reasonable way to describe the universe. But you know,

492
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: if that's the way nature works, that's the way nature works,

493
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,959
Speaker 1: you have to accept it. But that's the sort of

494
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: primacy of experimental results came later on. So back in

495
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: the day, people just sort of used to argue for

496
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 1: an explanation that made sense to them.

497
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 4: Right, Well, it was kind of hard for them to

498
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 4: build a particle collider, right.

499
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, exactly, they didn't have the massive government

500
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: funding to do that. These were men of leisure studying

501
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: science and the spare time.

502
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 4: In fact, it was called like natural philosophy, right, It

503
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 4: wasn't called science at the time, was it.

504
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right exactly. All science grew out of philosophy.

505
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: It was called these folks were natural philosophers. But you know,

506
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 1: later on then people started doing experiments. And there are

507
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: a bunch of French guys who did a bunch of

508
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: experiments and some of some English folks, and they were

509
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: studying how light behaved and refraction and reflection. And they

510
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: saw it doing these things and they thought, there's no

511
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 1: way Newton's right, this has to be a wave. You know,

512
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 1: they saw things like interference patterns. Right. Interference patterns is

513
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: when you have two waves and sometimes one is rippling

514
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: up at the same time another one is rippling down. Right.

515
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: So imagine, for example, you have a bathtub of water

516
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: in front of you, and you slap it with two

517
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 1: hands at once, right, each one is going to send

518
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: waves out. And then when those end, those waves are

519
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: either rippling up or rippling down. And when they reach

520
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: each other, if they're both rippling up at the same time,

521
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: then they constructively interfere to get a double wave. If

522
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: they're both rippling down at the same time, they constructively

523
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: interfere to get a double down wave. If one is

524
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: rippling up and the other's rippling down, then then they

525
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 1: cancel each other.

526
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 4: Out right, And so you would see no light.

527
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And so you can do this kind of stuff.

528
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: You know, in your bathtub, you can see interference patterns.

529
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: And what happens if you have two sources like that,

530
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: like one from each of your hands, is you get

531
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: some areas where the waves are high, in some areas

532
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: where the waves are low, in some areas where there

533
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: are no waves. And so as you say, if you

534
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: do it with light then you see these patterns of

535
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: dark and light, these stripes.

536
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 4: And you couldn't do that with particles, right, Like a

537
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 4: particle wouldn't cancel another particle.

538
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no way to explain that with particles. People thought, well, look,

539
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: this is something that waves do, and light is doing it,

540
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: and there's no way to explain it with particles, So

541
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: light must be a wave. Right. In fact, there's even

542
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: famous cases where they said, well, you know, if light

543
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,479
Speaker 1: is a wave, then you know, if you set up

544
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: this various experiment, you would get this crazy effect and

545
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: so that's absurd and so it definitely can't be true.

546
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: And then they went and did the experiment and saw

547
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: the crazy wave effect and they're like, oh, that is true.

548
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: You know, this is a I love that because it's

549
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: the primacy of experimentalism, right, Like, go and check the data,

550
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: Go and actually get some data and see what the

551
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: universe tells you.

552
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like you're like, a doughnut can't possibly be a

553
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 4: croissant at the same time, but it turns out that

554
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 4: you can bake something called a cronat.

555
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I think that's a big debate in pastry

556
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: science still though, Yeah, is it from a donut, like

557
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: that's like a croissant, or is it a croissant that's

558
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: like a donut.

559
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm getting my degree in particle baking.

560
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, the large pastry Collider. I'm looking forward to the

561
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: construction of that project.

562
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 4: But that's kind of what you mean. It's like you

563
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 4: people don't think it's possible until they actually see it.

564
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 4: And waves and light has been doing this to people

565
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 4: for hundreds of years, or they're like, they can't possibly

566
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 4: be doing this, or they can't it can't possibly be

567
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 4: doing that, but it just keeps doing all these weird things.

568
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And that was the experiment it's called the

569
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: double slit experiment, the one that really convinced people that

570
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: light is a wave because they've shown a strong light

571
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 1: and they had just two little narrow slits which act

572
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: like as sources like slapping your hands in the bath

573
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,479
Speaker 1: to water, and then on a screen behind it, they

574
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: saw these interference patterns, right, is that you could definitely

575
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: only get if light was a wave. And so that

576
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: was the early eighteen hundreds and everybody was absolutely certain

577
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: light was totally a wave. The question was settled. We

578
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: knew forever light was a wave. And we still didn't

579
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: know what was it waving through.

580
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 4: But how did they explain all those particle experiments?

581
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: Well, this was before we even really knew about particles, right,

582
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: No real particles had been discovered at this point. With

583
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: this idea from the Greeks of thousands of years ago

584
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: that maybe things were made out of particles, and chemistry

585
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: was getting warmed up, and you know, people are starting

586
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: to think about atoms and molecules and stuff, but they

587
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,479
Speaker 1: hadn't really seen any actual particles yet. And it was

588
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: decades later when the electron was discovered that people started

589
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: to think about the particle model again. But you know,

590
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: the wave theory was definitely ascended, right. Everybody definitely looked

591
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: at these double slit experiments and saw light doing all

592
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: this wavy stuff, and they were sure that light was

593
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: a wave.

594
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 4: Now did people extend that to other things, Like, you know,

595
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 4: they thought, oh, light is this weird wavy thing. But

596
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 4: surely us, we're made out of little tiny atoms.

597
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. I wonder if people thought, hm,

598
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: light's a wave, maybe we're a wave too, right, yeah?

599
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 4: Or like everything's just like a wave.

600
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably not, because nobody thought that light had any

601
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: mass to it, right, whereas we definitely know that we

602
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: have mass, right, we feel pretty heavy sometimes after a

603
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: big meal. Even before the discovery particles, though, there was

604
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: a huge advance in the theory of light which was

605
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: a Scottish guy named Maxwell. He was working on electricity

606
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: and magnetism, and he put together all these equations to

607
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: describe electricity magnetism, and he just sort of wrote them

608
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: down in a new way. This is like the way

609
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: you could do theoretical physics back in the days. You

610
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: just take existing ideas and you find a new way

611
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: to write them down. But he wrote them down in

612
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: this way that looked like the mathematics of a wave.

613
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: We have this equation. It's called a wave equation, and

614
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: it describes how waves move through a.

615
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 4: Medium, meaning like it could be described by equations that

616
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 4: look like sine waves and cosine waves. Right, I mean,

617
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 4: just in case anyone remembers high school math, that's kind

618
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 4: of what we mean by mathematical equations. So you can

619
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 4: describe it as a sine wave or as cosine wave, right.

620
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, The solution to these equations are sine

621
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: waves and cosine waves. These are differential equations to describe

622
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: how things move through the medium. And if things follow

623
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: these equations, then they're waves, right, okay. And so he

624
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: looked at the equations for electricity and for magnetism and

625
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: he rewrote them and he realized, you can rewrite them

626
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: in a way that looks just like the wave equation. Right,

627
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: So he said, oh, electricity magnetism has the same equation

628
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: as waves moving through water or waves moving through air.

629
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: And in fact, if you write it in terms of

630
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: this wave equation, you can pull out what the speed

631
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: of those waves must be. And the speed that he

632
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: pulled out from this from these equations was the speed

633
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: of light. So he had this moment of epiphany. He

634
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: must have been like in his office late one night,

635
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: rearranged these equations and realized, oh, my gosh, light is

636
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: a wave, and it's a wave of electromagnetism.

637
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 4: So like a light bulb turned on on top of

638
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 4: his head, emitting waves.

639
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: Exactly the first appropriate light bulb ever.

640
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, so then that seems pretty definitive. The double slit

641
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 4: experiment shows that light interferes with itself. And also this

642
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 4: guy figured out that it's mathematically describable by sine ways.

643
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 4: And cosine waves right.

644
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: Right right, That light is waves of electromagnetism, Yeah, exactly.

645
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: So then it all seems really nice and tidy. But

646
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: then the particle revolution comes, right. People discover the electron,

647
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: people discover the neutron, people discovering all these particles. But

648
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: then they were doing experiments where they were shining light

649
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: onto materials and trying to get it to kick off electrons.

650
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: So you shine a really bright light at something and

651
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: you hope that some of the electrons in the material

652
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: absorb that light and get enough energy to be free

653
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: right to run away, and so this is called the

654
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: photoelectric effect. You shine light at something and you measure

655
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: the electrons that come off. So what they saw in

656
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: this experiment only made sense if the energy of the

657
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: light comes in little packets rather than a continuous stream

658
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: like waves. So they turned up the intensity of the

659
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: light and they made it brighter, but that didn't increase

660
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: the energy of the electrons that were coming off, which

661
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense if it's a wave. It only makes

662
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: sense if photons come in little packets, so that increasing

663
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: the intensity of the light means more photons, but it

664
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: doesn't give more energy to any one. Electron because each

665
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: electron can only absorb one photon. And nobody understood this

666
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: at all. This made no sense to anybody. It was

667
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: a huge puzzle. We totally believe that it acted like

668
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: a wave. We had the double slit experiment told it

669
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: was a wave. Maxwell's equations told us it was wave.

670
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: But then we had the photoelectric effect, which didn't quite

671
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: make sense to anybody. Okay, and then Einstein said, well,

672
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: what if light comes in these little packets like you

673
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: were saying before, What if light is not this continuous

674
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: stream of energy like a wave is right, a wave

675
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: is continuous stream of energy. What if it comes in

676
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: these little bits? And that explained everything if you thought

677
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 1: that light was came in these little packets, It explained

678
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: the photo electric effect, explained these all these other mysteries

679
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: in physics, and that was the birth of quantum mechanics.

680
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 4: Did he think that maybe it was little packets of waves?

681
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean? Like little short bursts

682
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 4: of ripples.

683
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 7: You know?

684
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean?

685
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: Like?

686
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 4: Could that explain how it's both things that run through

687
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 4: his brain?

688
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: Yes? Absolutely, I think that's probably the first way he

689
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: thought about it, is like a little localized ripple, right,

690
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: like a little Yeah, that's the best way to put it,

691
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: A little localized ripple, like the way you can send

692
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: a little ripple of water, Yeah, through a swimming pool,

693
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: or something.

694
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 4: Like a chirp, or like a little sound burst.

695
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, like a little chirp. But it's strange because

696
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: you know, you can make a chirp of any size.

697
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: You can make a big one, a little one, a

698
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: long one, a fat one. But light, for some reason,

699
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: wanted to come only these in these little distinct chirps

700
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: of a specific size, and the size of those churps

701
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: was controlled by their color or their frequency. And so

702
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: that was the birth of quantum mechanics, which we could

703
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: spend a whole other podcast talking about. But it was

704
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: the first clue that maybe light did come in these

705
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: distinct little packages.

706
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's talk about that, But first, let's take a

707
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Speaker 1: And that's what we talked about, Like what is a particle?

770
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: It's a distinct little package. And then here's the part

771
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: that blew my mind is that then they went back

772
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: and they did that double slit experiment again, but they

773
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 1: slowed it down. Instead of shining a really big beam

774
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: of light, they just shown one photon at a time, right, Okay,

775
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: because they wanted to see what's going to happen. Right,

776
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: if light comes in these little packets, How does that

777
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: explain the interference effect? How can light interfere if it's

778
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: a particle?

779
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 4: So like, instead of like pointing the hose of water

780
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 4: at these two little holes and just seeing what happens

781
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 4: on the other side, they were throwing one droplet of water.

782
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: In time, yes, exactly, And what they expected to see

783
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: was that there would be no interference pattern, right, because

784
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: the interference comes from having two sources.

785
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 5: Right.

786
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: You have interference when you have two waves that are

787
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,240
Speaker 1: either adding up or canceling out.

788
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 4: Meaning like a huge stream of light is going through

789
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 4: these two little slits. Then the two little slits act

790
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 4: like little sources, like little sorts of ripples, which can

791
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 4: cancel ze exactly. But if you throw one drop at time,

792
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 4: it's either going to go in one slit or it's

793
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 4: going to go on the other slid, right, that's right.

794
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so the should be nothing to interfere, right,

795
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: So that's what they expected. But what they what they

796
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 1: saw blew their minds.

797
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 5: Right.

798
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: What happens if you slow the experiment down, you send

799
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: one photon at a time, is that you still get

800
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: an interference pattern. It's just that it builds up piece

801
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: by piece. So you throw one photon through and it

802
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 1: lands someplace on the screen, Throw another photon through, it

803
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: lands somewhere else on the screen. After you add up

804
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: a million photons, you rebuild the original interference pattern you saw.

805
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 4: That's crazy.

806
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: What. Yeah, light is a particle, but it's acting like

807
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 1: a wave. Right, how is that? How can that even be? Right?

808
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 4: It's not just that it's like it's a particle that's

809
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 4: acting like a wave, as if it was in a

810
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 4: huge stream of other particles.

811
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: Right, that's right, And this blew everybody's mind. And the answer,

812
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: of course, is that light is a particle. But like

813
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: every kind of matter, like every particle, how it moves

814
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: is governed by mathematics of wave equations. So every particle

815
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: carries with it's some quantum mechanical wave that determines where

816
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: it goes. But what was happening in that experiment was

817
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: that a particle photon was approaching the experiment and then

818
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: it could either go through the left hand side or

819
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: the right hand side slit right, And because it's quantum mechanical,

820
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: it did both. It had a chance to do both,

821
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: and what was interfering was the probability to go through

822
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 1: the left slit or the right slit.

823
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 4: So that's interesting. I don't think i've heard that explanation

824
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 4: before that it's a particle and a wave in the

825
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 4: sense that it is a particle, but it moves according

826
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 4: to wave equations.

827
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: Yes, everything moves according to wave equations. It's just that

828
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 1: the wavelength for things depends on how much energy they have.

829
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: So that was this guy de Brogueli. He came up

830
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: with this equation and maybe heard the expression to broguely wavelength.

831
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 4: I've heard the expression wavelength. That seems to be a.

832
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, everything is wavelengths. We were making fun of that guy.

833
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 1: Turns out he was right, oh twist ending, No, everything

834
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: has a wavelength, right, you can describe the motion of

835
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: anything in terms of a wave. Now, the wavelength depends

836
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: on the mass and the momentum, and for most things

837
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: like me or you or cantelope, the wavelength of its

838
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 1: quantum mechanical wave function is tiny, and so you can't

839
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: even notice. Right, the wave effects of you and your

840
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 1: son walking down the hallway and interfering with each other

841
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: are basically negligible. But on the scale of particles, these

842
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:45,919
Speaker 1: wave functions interfere with each other.

843
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a crazy thought that you know. We I

844
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 4: think people think quantum is something that doesn't affect their lives,

845
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:58,919
Speaker 4: but quantum ideas and concepts are everywhere, right, Like you

846
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 4: have a sort of like a quantum superposition, or you

847
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 4: you're not really there. You sort of there's a cloud

848
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 4: of you that is.

849
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: I'm not really here, I'm just an AI on the internet.

850
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: But that's that's differently cloud. Yeah, there is this quantum

851
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: mechanical certainty and everything.

852
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 4: Guess yeah, yeah, it's just that you can't notice.

853
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: That really blew people's minds. This concept that like, okay,

854
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: light is a particle, but it sort of acts like

855
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: a wave. We can use these wave equations to describe it.

856
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: And you know, there's another layer to that experiment which

857
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: is even crazier, right, which is if what's interfering is

858
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: the probability to go through the left slit or the

859
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 1: right slit right. Then when the when the photon approaches

860
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: the experiment, it can go through one or the other.

861
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 1: The interference pattern comes from the uncertainty of which it's

862
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 1: going to go through. So what you can do is

863
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: you can add a little detector to one slit that

864
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: like gives you a ping if it goes through that

865
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: slit right, so you know for sure if it goes

866
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: through one slit or the other. If you do that,

867
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: the interference pattern disappears. WHOA Why does it disappear? It

868
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: disappears because the interference only came from the interference of

869
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: the possibility of the particle to go through the left

870
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: slit or the right slit, our lack of knowledge. Once

871
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: you know it goes through the right slide of left slit,

872
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: there's no more uncertainty. There's nothing to interfere. It just

873
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: goes through the left or it goes through the right.

874
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 4: It's like you're throwing a boxes full of cats that

875
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 4: are either dead or alive, and you see what happens

876
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 4: on the other side. It's different if you take a

877
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 4: peek inside the box before it gets there.

878
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, and no cats were harmed in the making

879
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: of this podcast. I now feel energs to point out

880
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: that's sort of where we are today, is that we

881
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: know that light is a particle and then it comes

882
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: in these little discrete packets become photons, right, Yeah, But

883
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: we also know that, like everything else, light is determined

884
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: by how its way you function moves. Every particle and

885
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: every object has this way you function, and how it

886
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: moves is controlled by wave equations.

887
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 4: It's not like it's both a particle and a wave

888
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 4: and people don't really know which one it is, or

889
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 4: people are still confused about them. But it sort of

890
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 4: sounds like you're not that confused about it, right, It

891
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 4: sort of sounds like you know it's a particle, but

892
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 4: it moves around like a wave.

893
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's still confusing. I mean, I think you could.

894
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: It's totally reasonable to say it's both. It's a particle

895
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 1: but it acts like a wave. Right, It's also totally

896
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: reasonable to say it's neither. It's not a particle, it's

897
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: not a wave. It's something else. It's something weird, something

898
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: totally strange, we've never seen before. It's a war we

899
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: can or a pave you are on fire.

900
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:49,439
Speaker 4: I am simple spelling, but that's that's a joke.

901
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: But it's also serious because sometimes we discover things which

902
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: are unlike anything else we've seen, and how do you

903
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: describe them?

904
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 4: I meaning we should stop using these words. We should

905
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 4: maybe more than new word to describe what it is,

906
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 4: because it's not not described by either word.

907
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: Particle, that's right, it's a chapel, it's a cherry apple combination.

908
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's not call it a particle or a wave.

909
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 4: Let's just make up any word that embodies these two

910
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 4: ways to behave that's right.

911
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: But here we've discovered something which is different from anything

912
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: in our microscopic world. There's nothing in our world particles, waves,

913
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: little puppies. That is a good analogy for what light is.

914
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 1: So we have to try to sort of describe it

915
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: in terms of sometimes it's like this, sometimes like this.

916
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: My personal belief is that it's it's not like anything else,

917
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: and that these are approximations. But you know, like we

918
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, you can be different contradictory things

919
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: like how would you describe yourself? You know, sometimes your husband,

920
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: sometimes your father, sometimes you're a cartoonist. Sometimes you're just

921
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: a sleep you know. Like all these things describe you,

922
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: they're contradictory. There are different facets of who you are

923
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: at your core, and none of them define you right.

924
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 4: Right, But if you don't happen to have the right label,

925
00:44:58,640 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 4: you make up an you know.

926
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, Yes, we need a new thing.

927
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 5: Right.

928
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 1: Light is definitely its own weird kind of thing.

929
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 4: All right, Well, until next time.

930
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: If you still have a question after listening to all

931
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: these explanations, please drop us a line. We'd love to

932
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933
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