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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steph.

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Speaker 1: I've never told you protection of I Hiart Radio. So

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Speaker 1: you kind of asked me this question previously on an

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Speaker 1: update episode or a classic episode, so I'm going to

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Speaker 1: ask you kind of similar. Did you get baby dolls

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Speaker 1: as a kid? I did? I did. The first one

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Speaker 1: that comes to mind was actually fairly disturbing experience where um,

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Speaker 1: you might be familiar with this, Samantha, but up in Cleveland, Georgia,

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Speaker 1: there is a cabbage patch doll like museum slash shore

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Speaker 1: and my parents took me when I was about eight

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Speaker 1: years old. And for anyone who doesn't know, like this

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Speaker 1: is my child memory, so it's not the best, but

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Speaker 1: I just remember this is a big room, big tree inside,

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Speaker 1: and you know, every thirty minutes or so, this woman

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Speaker 1: in a nurse's outfit would come and like shout out

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Speaker 1: to everyone, like a new cabbage patch baby is born.

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Speaker 1: And it's scared the hell out of me. I took

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Speaker 1: one home and it what happened to be the one

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Speaker 1: that eight and they had to recall those because you

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Speaker 1: would fall asleep and in the middle of night you

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Speaker 1: you'd wake up and you'd hear this wrong, and it

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Speaker 1: would be eating your hair. So it was disturbing a

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Speaker 1: lot of levels. Oh yeah, so it exists, still exists.

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Speaker 1: The baby Land General Hospital, yes, and yeah, it's actually

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Speaker 1: apparently was a converted old clinic. It looked creepy inside.

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Speaker 1: I like, I remember that big room really well, and

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Speaker 1: then you would go down some steps and then they

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Speaker 1: would just be these big bin of like cabbage patch

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Speaker 1: dolls of all sizes. But I remember that room and

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Speaker 1: that nurse coming out and holding up the baby. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's the only kind of baby dolls I really

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Speaker 1: remember getting. I'm sure I got a couple of more,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't love dolls in general, so it wasn't

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Speaker 1: a thing for me, but I would get them. But

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Speaker 1: the pabbage patch doll I do remember, and the fact

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Speaker 1: that they had like the hardhead plastic head, and then

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Speaker 1: the cushy body, but then they had that signature on

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Speaker 1: their butt. Always thought that was weird. Did you ever

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Speaker 1: when you had these dolls? Did you play like your

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Speaker 1: mom and this is your baby? Was that something that

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Speaker 1: you did. I did have one that I did that with,

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Speaker 1: but it was specifically made for that, And I think

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Speaker 1: what I really liked about it was the mechanics, although

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Speaker 1: looking back now it's kind of gross, but you would

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Speaker 1: like feed it and like peas and carrots on a spoon,

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Speaker 1: and it would kind of shoot back in the spoon

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Speaker 1: to look as though it ate it right, you would

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Speaker 1: change its staper and and I feel like I I

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Speaker 1: did have that project in school where you had to

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Speaker 1: I guess it wasn't a baby doll. We had to

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Speaker 1: take like the egg for a weekend or something. I

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Speaker 1: think it has that too, And I've never really played

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Speaker 1: with them. I don't think we actually ever did the

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Speaker 1: baby project, and I think it's still happening today. I

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Speaker 1: don't know they actually do other ways. And of course

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Speaker 1: we see the sitcoms and the hilarious nous. Uh. I

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Speaker 1: believe it was in the Buffy episode where he boiled

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Speaker 1: the egg so it didn't break. Ah. Nice so Xander,

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Speaker 1: good old Xander. But today we're not necessarily talking about

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Speaker 1: dolls and such, but we are talking about women and

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Speaker 1: children essentially, or young girls being taught to be a parent.

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Speaker 1: So today we're going to discuss and talk about it briefly,

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Speaker 1: and we've already talked about it briefly in our Trauma

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Speaker 1: Mini series. I know I brought up the term, but

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Speaker 1: wanted to do a whole episode dedicated to it. And

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Speaker 1: it's a long and complicated subject and the effects of

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Speaker 1: perunification in women. Of course, we're talking about parentification. In

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Speaker 1: the studies about perunifications, it does typically lean towards what

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Speaker 1: happens with young girls and women because it's that whole

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Speaker 1: gender narrative of who is the parent and who it

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Speaker 1: takes the responsibility of being a parent. So that just

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Speaker 1: go ahead put that there. And of course, again I

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Speaker 1: have mentioned it because it's something that I've experienced with

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Speaker 1: working with peritified children as well as the families. And

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Speaker 1: again we're gonna go ahead with this here. We're not professionals.

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm not technically a professional anymore, as in, like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not studying this. I don't treat it, you don't

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Speaker 1: treat it. So um. And we're getting all of this

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Speaker 1: from research and different articles, but we think that it's

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Speaker 1: important that we talk about it because it's not talked

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Speaker 1: about too often. Um. And again we're gonna also put

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Speaker 1: a trigger warning here because it's not necessarily that we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk into anything really dark or deep We're not

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Speaker 1: going to talk about abuse, but I know for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people just hearing some of these things that

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Speaker 1: could trigger up emotions from your past. Maybe it is

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Speaker 1: you are a victim of parentification, or you have a

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Speaker 1: really hard relationship with your parents due to something like this.

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Speaker 1: It can be triggering. So go ahead and put out there.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna do a deep dive of the effects as

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Speaker 1: well as some of the articles and some of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why this might happen. Yes, and also please know

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Speaker 1: when it comes to issues like purtification, it is a

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Speaker 1: sticky topic. Um a majority of those who may have

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Speaker 1: been partified or could have been parentifying a child. It's

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Speaker 1: not malicious, but oftentimes as a result of necessity or

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Speaker 1: outside forces, whether it is untreated issues within the home

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Speaker 1: or even due to economic stressors um single parents who

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Speaker 1: can't afford daycare for example. Of course, that doesn't gain

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Speaker 1: the fact that it does have an impact, and we

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Speaker 1: wanted to look at some of those impacts. So let's

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Speaker 1: start at the beginning with the definition. So the definition

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Speaker 1: of parentification is a fairly complicated one with its overall

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Speaker 1: effects as well as the depth of who it affects.

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Speaker 1: But the term was originated in Debt by both Remaining

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Speaker 1: Notes and Spark in nineteen seventy three, they used it

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Speaker 1: to describe quote a common component of relationships wherebyt par

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Speaker 1: rental characteristics are projected onto an individual, and typically that

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Speaker 1: individual is a child. Perentification is a subcategory of a

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Speaker 1: term called boundary dissolution, which is characterized by a distortion

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Speaker 1: of reversal in the normative parent child roles. Parentification is

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Speaker 1: the process of children being assigned an adult role, taking

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Speaker 1: on both the emotional and functional responsibilities that typically are

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Speaker 1: performed by parents, which may be the result or is

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Speaker 1: a result of the parent taking on the dependent child

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Speaker 1: role overall. The bigger, more damaging level of parentification is

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Speaker 1: to find it's something that can cause trauma and is

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Speaker 1: overall a boundary violation in which the roles of parent

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Speaker 1: child are flipped and the child becomes the caretaker, mediator,

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Speaker 1: or protector of the family. Now, that's not to say

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Speaker 1: giving some responsibility or autonomy to a child is unhealthy.

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Speaker 1: Charge your goals for children to learn to be somewhat

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Speaker 1: self aware, and teaching responsibility can foster a sense of

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Speaker 1: accomplishment or teacher level of discipline that leads to confidence

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Speaker 1: and nurturing that can help children to become functioning adults,

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Speaker 1: such as teaching children how to do laundry, money management,

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Speaker 1: or how to use a stove properly. But this is

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Speaker 1: accompanied by a healthy relationship and support of the parent,

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Speaker 1: which often follows with acknowledgment of what is being taught.

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Speaker 1: Right so now. According to the research from Jennifer Inglehart

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Speaker 1: from Columbia University, there are two types of permentification, instrumental

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Speaker 1: and emotional. Instrumental can be seen as healthy to a

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Speaker 1: certain degree, like the assignment of functional responsibilities such as

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Speaker 1: paying bills, shopping, helping with cooking, or running the day

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Speaker 1: to day care of the household. Again, an extreme version

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Speaker 1: of this, when we see the responsibility being fully placed

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Speaker 1: on a child, it is dangerous and can be detrimental

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Speaker 1: in the development on a young child. Example of that

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Speaker 1: would be parents are incapacitated and the child is responsible

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Speaker 1: in feeding and dressing and taking care of all the

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Speaker 1: other children as well as themselves and maybe even the parent. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and emotional parentification is the expectation that the children will

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Speaker 1: fulfill specific emotional or psychological needs of the parents. This

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Speaker 1: is when we witness or experience. It's being the emotional

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Speaker 1: rocker support of the parent, being the confidant of a

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Speaker 1: parent during rough times, example, during a divorce, telling the

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Speaker 1: child the ugly details of the other parents are why

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Speaker 1: marriage didn't work, or using the child as their sounding board.

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Speaker 1: This type of prunification is noted to cause more trauma

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Speaker 1: and damage than instrumental fortification. Emotional pronification often uses the

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Speaker 1: child as the one to give emotional care and may

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Speaker 1: even be expected to give quote, unwavering support and or

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Speaker 1: crisis intervention, and if not able to meet that need,

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Speaker 1: can cause the parent to lash out or be withholding

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Speaker 1: and later we will talk a bit about the results

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Speaker 1: when it comes to mental health and attachment issues, but

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Speaker 1: it is again something to remember that there there is

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Speaker 1: a balance. When a child is expected to be the

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Speaker 1: bearer of the family, whether emotional or otherwise, the outcome

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Speaker 1: can be traumatic. Right. The effects and outcomes of fortification

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Speaker 1: is of course varying from person to person, but the

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Speaker 1: effects can run deep and even generational. Again, there's a

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Speaker 1: difference from teaching responsibility, and we're going to harp on

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Speaker 1: that a lot because we know that when it comes

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Speaker 1: to parenting that's a sensitive issue when we're not trying

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Speaker 1: to tell you how to parent, but we don't want

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Speaker 1: to shy away from a topic. So there, yeah, is

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Speaker 1: a difference from teaching responsibility versus abuse. But here we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk a lot more about the extreme of

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Speaker 1: the trauma of parentification, so just be a reminder. Research

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Speaker 1: has shown that overall outcome for permentification of children can

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Speaker 1: include internalized problems like depression or anxiety symptoms, as well

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Speaker 1: as somatic symptoms like headaches and stomach aches. Parentified children

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Speaker 1: can also show external problems like aggressive or disruptive behaviors,

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Speaker 1: self harm symptoms that mimic a d h D, and

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Speaker 1: similar behaviors. It can also lead to difficulties and interpersonal relationships,

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Speaker 1: academic problems, perhaps due personally to absentee is um and

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Speaker 1: with all that, the overall effect of extreme pronification can

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Speaker 1: be seen in an impeding in identity development and personality information.

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Speaker 1: It can affect interpersonal relationships, including with their own own children.

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Speaker 1: It can also be associated with later attachment issues, psychological distress,

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Speaker 1: masochistic and narcissistic behaviors, and even lead to possible substance abuse.

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Speaker 1: But it isn't always negative. Some researchers speculated that purification

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Speaker 1: may be beneficial and can lead to better interpersonal confidence

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Speaker 1: and stronger family bonds, as well as quote a higher

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Speaker 1: level of individualization, differentiation from family and self mastery and autatomy.

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Speaker 1: But typically this is more likely for a child who

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Speaker 1: has experienced low levels of parentification that is accompanied by

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Speaker 1: healthy relationships with adults that reward and recognize the child's

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Speaker 1: achievements and efforts. So we did want to talk about

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Speaker 1: how women are particularly affected. But first we're going to

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Speaker 1: pause for a quick break for words from our sponsor

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Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So how does this

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Speaker 1: a women? Well, not surprisingly, according to research, pernification issues

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Speaker 1: affect more women than men, and that is partially due

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Speaker 1: to the level of responsibility placed on young girls to

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Speaker 1: be caretakers with the family. Like when you're not talking

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Speaker 1: about as young kids, we get dolls and being told

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Speaker 1: how to be nurturing and how to care. This is

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Speaker 1: what you want to be eventually, right, you want a kid?

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Speaker 1: And you know the whole patriarchal narrative that women stay home, cook, clean,

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Speaker 1: and take care of the family while the men go

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Speaker 1: to work and bring home that bacon, which means a

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Speaker 1: chunk of the research focuses on the mother child dynamic

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Speaker 1: as well, and not as much research leans on the

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Speaker 1: father child relationship, although it does, but it's newer, so

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Speaker 1: that is something to be said. And when we talk

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Speaker 1: about it a little more um as it comes out,

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Speaker 1: we see kind of how it pours out differently. Again,

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Speaker 1: the nurturing versus playful and protective the whole thing um

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Speaker 1: And as one article writes, quote patriarchal values that support

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Speaker 1: the pernification of a female children have been in a

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Speaker 1: place for centuries. The leave that female children are particularly

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Speaker 1: adept as caretakers, emotional laborers, and the dumping ground for

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Speaker 1: disowned family wounds and secrets. And all of this should

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Speaker 1: include the perspective that for so long girls have been

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Speaker 1: seen as being more mature than boys are and are

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Speaker 1: more likely to be given that type of responsibility and expectation.

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Speaker 1: So perhaps society itself is perenifying young girls. And as

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Speaker 1: we read through the many different perspectives and overlapping theme arises,

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Speaker 1: and that is the competition between mother and daughter. Again,

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Speaker 1: we are looking at the more extreme version of perenification.

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Speaker 1: Many talk about the idea of love and validation as

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Speaker 1: a finite source and being taught that one must earn

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Speaker 1: such things and with that, as one psychotherapist states, the quote,

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Speaker 1: patriarchy has deprived women to such a degree that when

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Speaker 1: they become mothers, they often turn to the love of

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Speaker 1: their young daughters, starving and ravenous for validation, approval, and recognition.

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Speaker 1: And because typically paranting is a quote gendered practice, and

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Speaker 1: therefore we see the heteronormative role suggest quote that fathers

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Speaker 1: spend more time and play activities with their children or

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Speaker 1: the primary instrumental and emotional parenting role is usually undertaken

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Speaker 1: by the mother, which can also relate as to why

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Speaker 1: we see more women and young girls mentioned in these studies, right,

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Speaker 1: and when we're talking about the play level, it's that

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Speaker 1: whole princess narrative that the oftentimes we see fathers have.

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Speaker 1: This is my princess. You know, all of these things

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Speaker 1: that are laid out on two young girls. But it

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Speaker 1: actually can be a form of prunification when you put

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Speaker 1: them up into a pedestal that they validate their roles

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Speaker 1: as fathers. So it's IFFI like, oh God, because what

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Speaker 1: happens when they're disappointing them. So that's kind of that

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Speaker 1: whole Like my girl, my young girl, I have to

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Speaker 1: protect her, and then if they step out of line,

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Speaker 1: like they become sexual. So that's definitely another thing that

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Speaker 1: we can look at, but we're not gonna necessarily talk

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Speaker 1: about in this episode. But when it comes to promunifications,

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Speaker 1: young girls are more likely to take on that parent

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Speaker 1: role when there's a parent missing from the typically heady,

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Speaker 1: normative two parent household. Again, we want to mention that

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Speaker 1: pernification may manifest differently for men that it does for women.

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Speaker 1: So young kids, young boys who are being pernified, such

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Speaker 1: as the boys being more protective and provide for their family.

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Speaker 1: Wild girls, you know, take care and nurture the family.

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Speaker 1: So definitely two different, very gendered ideas that society places

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Speaker 1: on what they should be doing. Prime example Supernatural Yes,

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Speaker 1: Oh I told you it's been suggering for me watching Yes,

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Speaker 1: which may continue again in adulthood with men over compensating

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Speaker 1: to be hyper masculine in their actions and ideas. Something

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Speaker 1: also to think on. And all of this birth order

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Speaker 1: can play a major part into who may be more

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Speaker 1: likely to be permnified as well. So when we talk

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Speaker 1: about the middle child, the oldest child, and the youngest

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Speaker 1: child that can play a key role in all of

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Speaker 1: this conversation. So we talked a little bit of the

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Speaker 1: effects of extreme promnification earlier, including depression and anxiety, but

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Speaker 1: added that the many layers of low self esteem and

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Speaker 1: inability to have healthy attachments and even complex PTSD. Many times,

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Speaker 1: if someone has experienced this, they also experienced a lot

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Speaker 1: of shame and guilt throughout their lives, whether it's a

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Speaker 1: need to take responsibility for all misgivings or failures around them,

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Speaker 1: or shouldering all the responsibilities as well. They become hyper

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Speaker 1: vigilant of criticism and or the possibility of upsetting someone,

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Speaker 1: and within that maybe a level of distracting or deflecting

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Speaker 1: from a bad situation. And for adults who took on

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Speaker 1: roles of parents as children, it is likely that they

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Speaker 1: have become highly sensitized to errors, imperfection, and unfairness in

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Speaker 1: the world. They have a harsh inner critic inside of them,

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Speaker 1: constantly telling them they're not doing things correctly or perfectly enough.

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Speaker 1: They live with constant pressure to fix things, correct things,

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Speaker 1: and to make things right again, being highly judgmental and critical, right,

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Speaker 1: So we talked a bit about the biases within permitification,

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Speaker 1: where and why there may be more research on the

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Speaker 1: mother child role, but they are all also examples where

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Speaker 1: we see fathers who lying, as I mentioned before, on

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Speaker 1: young daughters to be the wife within the family. And

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Speaker 1: we're saying this in caretaker level. And again that's not

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Speaker 1: to say that this there isn't a healthy balance in

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Speaker 1: assisting and contributing to the family. Babysitting your younger siblings

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Speaker 1: is not a bad thing for a short amount of time.

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Speaker 1: Helping your younger siblings with homework when your parents are

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Speaker 1: kind of busy, that's not a bad thing. Having tours

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Speaker 1: not a bad thing. What is being looked at here

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Speaker 1: is when this expectation that the child will become the cook,

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Speaker 1: become the housekeeper and an overall caregiver of the household. Here,

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Speaker 1: the level of negog can be detrimental and could even

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Speaker 1: lead to harmful expectations within romantic relationships. As one research

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Speaker 1: states quote that perentified child may develop anxious and or

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Speaker 1: avoidant orientations towards relationships, and those beliefs are then carried

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Speaker 1: forward into young adult romantic relationships. That is, having had

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Speaker 1: a developmentally inappropriate caregiving role thrust on them as children

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Speaker 1: may put these young adults at higher risk of perceiving

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Speaker 1: themselves as only valuable to others in so far as

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Speaker 1: they serve a purpose, so that we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: fact that you have to earn love once again, or

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Speaker 1: you have to earn your place in that home and

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Speaker 1: it continues to stay. Alternatively, they may take on too

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Speaker 1: much responsibility and feel that they are solely responsible for

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Speaker 1: the happiness of those around them. And yeah, we do

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Speaker 1: have some examples we want to go over because there

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Speaker 1: are many blogs and post out there with personal accounts

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Speaker 1: of genification, and it's important to acknowledge the damage this

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Speaker 1: type of trauma can have and why we do need

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Speaker 1: to keep researching it and its effects. Many talk about

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Speaker 1: how these types of issues end up robbing individuals of

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Speaker 1: their childhoods and why that is problematic, and with that,

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Speaker 1: they may have never gotten a resolution or had a

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Speaker 1: conversation with the parents that were the cause of these

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Speaker 1: types of trauma, and more often than not, parents are

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Speaker 1: are We're unaware of what they are are we're doing,

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Speaker 1: whether it's a misguided effort to prepare children for the

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Speaker 1: real world, or because more often than not shoulder and

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Speaker 1: are so empathetic that it feels like an easy solution

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Speaker 1: are just talking with someone and sometimes um and typically

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Speaker 1: seen in paternal parents, the excuse that my child is

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Speaker 1: smart and mature, they can handle it is used to

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Speaker 1: treat their child as a confidant, our cohort. Right, So

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Speaker 1: some of the examples actually was so one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite things on Reddit is uh am I the whole

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Speaker 1: which is the whole reddit that I'm not gonna lie

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Speaker 1: because it's I'm sure half of them are made up.

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Speaker 1: But there was a reference to one specific one where

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Speaker 1: the father was asking if he was all because he

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Speaker 1: had his sixteen year old daughter take up the mantle

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Speaker 1: of the mother after the mother died, including the fact

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Speaker 1: that he was going to keep her from going to college,

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Speaker 1: take away all of her after school activities because he

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Speaker 1: needed help with the younger siblings. Again, of course, we

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Speaker 1: want to talk about the fact that there are issues

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Speaker 1: which when it comes to death, when it comes to sicknesses,

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Speaker 1: that yes, because are given a little more responsibility, but

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Speaker 1: to that level that he was not allowing her to

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Speaker 1: go to college, how much of a damage that he

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Speaker 1: could cause for this young woman, as well as the

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Speaker 1: bitterness that is going to come out of that in general,

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Speaker 1: and how it's going to ruin their relationship. But of course,

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Speaker 1: again this doesn't go back to the fact of what

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Speaker 1: you have to do. Sometimes you just have to do

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Speaker 1: some things, and the fact of the matter is you

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Speaker 1: have to have that assistance. But I think in this

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Speaker 1: specific article, he wasn't saying that he did couldn't find help.

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Speaker 1: He was just refusing to do it without her. So

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Speaker 1: it was kind of like, right, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you know what you're doing, but this is bad as well.

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Speaker 1: As we have so many different blogs of people telling

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Speaker 1: their own stories, whether it's having a mother that was narcissistic,

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Speaker 1: having parents that were alcoholics, and what that looks like.

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Speaker 1: And I know within my own family there's dosinant stories

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Speaker 1: of them taking care of themselves or their younger siblings

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Speaker 1: while the parent has gone to try to retrieve the

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Speaker 1: father figure from a bar and because they're so focused

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Speaker 1: in trying to take care of their spouse that they

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Speaker 1: neglect the children. And who has to take up that

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Speaker 1: mantle for myself? Of course, being an orphanage, I'm not

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Speaker 1: necessarily perentified because I wasn't taking care of others, but

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Speaker 1: it's definitely independent. And I was definitely lost a lot

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Speaker 1: of childhood because I had to grow up real quick.

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Speaker 1: So there's definitely conversations of what does this look like?

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Speaker 1: And even though during that point in time, of course,

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Speaker 1: I think boomers versus millennials would say I have a

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Speaker 1: different conversation for sure, because it was expected of them

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Speaker 1: to take on this mantle. But the fact that matter

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Speaker 1: is it does cause trauma, and we have to look

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Speaker 1: at the later repercussions of what might have happened. And

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Speaker 1: speaking of we did want to look at some outside

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Speaker 1: factors that can lead to purnification. But first we're going

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Speaker 1: to pause for one more group break for word from

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Speaker 1: our sponsored air back. Think you're sponsored? So yeah, why

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Speaker 1: does perunification happen? There are again number of reasons, and

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Speaker 1: we've already talked about a few of those. Uh And again,

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Speaker 1: like we said, alcohol is substances, use disorders, serious medical conditions,

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Speaker 1: and maturity of parents. Parents own neglect or abuse, so

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Speaker 1: that kind of transfers into their own families, financial hardships

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Speaker 1: and mental health issues. Um. And again we want to

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Speaker 1: emphasize that not all promunification is to the extreme that

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Speaker 1: it can cause these types of trauma and effects were

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Speaker 1: we've already talked about. Um, I'm sure everybody's like, why

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Speaker 1: are you saying that over and over again? Because there

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Speaker 1: again is a balance. There's always a balance, And but

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Speaker 1: we also want to mention things like financial hardship and

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Speaker 1: socio economic issues and reasons for prontifications as a symptom

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Speaker 1: of a much larger problem. If a family can't afford

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Speaker 1: the assistance or are not qualified for us to be

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Speaker 1: in school, pre K, whatever whatnot, and have to depend

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Speaker 1: on their oldest child for child care or anything of

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Speaker 1: the such, we can't really talk about what the parent

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Speaker 1: is doing without king about what our society is making

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Speaker 1: our parents do without. And I think that's something we

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Speaker 1: have to remember, and I know that's one of the

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Speaker 1: big debates that was happening with Senator Elizabeth Warren saying

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Speaker 1: that we need to be able to give state childcare

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Speaker 1: and we need to be able to provide it because

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Speaker 1: what we're looking at, the people who can afford childcare

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Speaker 1: are those who have the money. And so if you

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Speaker 1: have that money, then you know you're great, that's great,

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Speaker 1: That's on you and if you're prentifying your child, that's

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Speaker 1: a whole other conversation that, yeah, it's probably pretty traumatizing

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Speaker 1: for your kid, whether or not you want to talk

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Speaker 1: about it. But we look at the socio economic status

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Speaker 1: is when we look at women who are working in

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Speaker 1: a single parents in a minimum wage job that's trying

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Speaker 1: to provide their basic needs, then we really can't talk

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Speaker 1: about what they're not doing right or what they're doing wrong,

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Speaker 1: because we are upholding a system that's trying to punish

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Speaker 1: them for the most they can do without giving them

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Speaker 1: any help. And again, my name is gonna be on

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Speaker 1: a list, I know, but I think that's I saw

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Speaker 1: as a social worker more often than not that the

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Speaker 1: neglect cases that happened to me, if it wasn't drug

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Speaker 1: abuse cases or alcoholic cases or any of those, it

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Speaker 1: was because they were making do with what they had.

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Speaker 1: And so part of that includes transportation. So if they

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Speaker 1: don't have a back and forth to get this child

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Speaker 1: from daycare, then who then what we're gonna do. If

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Speaker 1: they don't have family support, then what are they gonna do.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of that horror level. And I definitely have

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Speaker 1: friends who are part of the social work system because

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Speaker 1: they had to live that life as a perentified child

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Speaker 1: and they want to help. But again, when you have

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Speaker 1: a government that ties hands and keeps saying, you know, bootstrap, bootstrap,

431
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,360
Speaker 1: there's only so much you can do, so just put

432
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: that there again. We also want to talk about parents

433
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: with disabilities. It's kind of that same thing. We as

434
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: a society are not providing the necessary funding or appropriate

435
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 1: assistance for families to maintain autonomy, and that is a

436
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: big conversation. There's no real answer or a solution to

437
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: how to appropriately help. We're not helping. And if we're

438
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: just expecting them to make their own solution with a

439
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 1: very minimal amount of any kind of help, then why

440
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: do we expect that they're going to be on the

441
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: same footing um And as in fact, we could go

442
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: again into the bigger issue of the ablest idea that

443
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: they as a marginalized community should do without a level

444
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: playing field when it comes to family. So we're not

445
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 1: going to put them on the same level and give

446
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: them the same opportunities or same expectation as an able

447
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: body family. But the fact that we're trying to hold

448
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: them in that same expectations once again, not giving them

449
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: the same resources that was given to others. That's not

450
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: something that should be expected, and that's something that we

451
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 1: need to reconsider as we're talking about all of this

452
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: as well. And also, yeah, and when we talk about

453
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: and we mentioned it a couple of times, about addition

454
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: and substance use, it's also one of the big reasons

455
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: for pertification, whether they're incapacitated because of this type of disorder,

456
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: or whether it's expected that, whether children learn for themselves

457
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 1: that they have to be the ones that take care

458
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: of things. My own experience when I would do child

459
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: abuse investigation cases, this was one of the big concerns

460
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: with alcohol and drug related issues. It was coming into

461
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 1: a home finding let's say, the parents passed out in

462
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: the back and the child in the kitchen by themselves,

463
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: operating a soave. So I had a case where a

464
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: six year old was sitting there making dinner for herself

465
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: and her two year old brother and asking where is

466
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: your parents? And they were there technically, but they weren't there,

467
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: and that child being so excited to tell me that

468
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: she could do this on her own, and she taught

469
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: herself how to do this. It's heartbreaking at the same

470
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: time that you're glad that they're able to do that,

471
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: and you know you want to praise them for being

472
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 1: that smart and a while a good job, but you're

473
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: heartbroken because you had to teach yourself that and you

474
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: don't have the mill that a parent should be providing

475
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: for you, or that guardians should be providing for you

476
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: and caring for you at least watching you do this

477
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 1: so nothing disastrous happens. So they've definitely had many of

478
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: those cases, and um, yeah, within that, oftentimes I see

479
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: trauma bonding. So when I would investigate some of these cases,

480
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: Now six year old was a different case because they

481
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: were younger and they didn't realize what was happening. Many

482
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: children and adults don't know that that's was happening. But

483
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: having like fourteen year olds try to lie to me

484
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: about when their parents pass out, I had those cases,

485
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: or that the parents were gone for days at a time,

486
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: or what happens at night when things happen and they

487
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: think they can get away with things. There's a lot

488
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: of this trauma bond because they don't want to leave

489
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: their family, or they don't want to abandon their family,

490
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: or they don't want to tell on their family. And

491
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 1: of course that also goes into the fact that the

492
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: only oftentimes solution was foster care. And I hate foster care.

493
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: And I say that as it is such a harsh

494
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: environment no matter how great a situation, but being pulled

495
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: away from your family, being pulled away from something that

496
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: you think is stable, is traumatizing. I definitely saw this

497
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: as a part of that as well. So you have

498
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: this trauma bond plus the protification. It becomes a whole

499
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 1: narrative as an adult, and it becomes usually generational because

500
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: that's what you're taught. Obviously, it's something that has affected

501
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: me and has broken my heart over and over again,

502
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: but something that we definitely have to talk about within

503
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: our systems as well. Right, and then something else we

504
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: want to touch on our divorce and domestic violence maybe

505
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 1: one of the more common cases of why a child

506
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: may have a role reversal in these circumstances. Children may

507
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: become the confident our protectors of their parents. They become

508
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: mediators between the parents, or some may believe and be

509
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,959
Speaker 1: told that their behaviors are the cause of the problem

510
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: within the families. Because children are fairly empathetic overall, they

511
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: are the ones who may be providing comfort, our support

512
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: for their parents, right. I think that's going to resonate

513
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: with a lot of people, especially in our generation, when

514
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: we talk about being the other for their parents, or

515
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 1: trying to hide things from the parents, are being told

516
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: not to say things to their parents. Um, and of

517
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: course it happens today too, and how damaging that really

518
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: is for an individual and why we need to stop

519
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: that in general. But yeah, also we do want to

520
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: talk again a little more in depth look at some

521
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: of the signs of parentification. So we talked about a

522
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: few of them earlier, everything from compensating to signs of

523
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: a d h D, but we wanted to add some

524
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: more so anxiety, especially when it comes to caring for

525
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: others or always constantly definitely had that as an issue,

526
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: may growing up being told I was bossy, but I

527
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: was really just anxious to make sure everybody was okay.

528
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's happened to a lot of

529
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: girls as a young age. Depression, suicidal ideation, compulsive overworking

530
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: in order to fulfill responsibilities at school, at home, at career.

531
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: And this is a type of compulsive caregiving as well

532
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: that happens feelings of constant guilt and shame, social isolation,

533
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: and then constant warrior concern or trouble of having fun

534
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: or playing, constantly need to be in control lack of childhood,

535
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: needs to be a peacekeeper, sacrificing your own needs for

536
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: others to the detriment of your health. And we have

537
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: a feeling many of you will recognize some of these

538
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: signs or any of the effects we talked about earlier,

539
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: or even the examples that we talked about earlier. As

540
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: in fact, the National Alliance for Caregiving shows that at

541
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: least one point four million children and adolescents in the

542
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: US alone experienced permunifications of some sort as of twenty nineteen.

543
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: And this is one of those things that's often overlooked

544
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: as part of the problem or trauma. So I'm betting

545
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: that the numbers are higher. So to s pit that

546
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: caveat there and uh, with all those heavy things, what

547
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: are some ways that we can work through the issues

548
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: that are related to being perentified? Well, no surprise therapy.

549
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: Different types of therapy are being used to address the

550
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: trauma due to experiencing parentification, including trauma focused cognitive behavioral therapy,

551
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: which could help change helpful thought patterns, dialectical but your

552
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: therapy which could identify and change self destructive behaviors e

553
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: M d r r I movement to sensitization and reprocessing

554
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: to help with the trauma comprehensive resource model which involves

555
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: quote psychology, spirituality, neurobiology, and somatic techniques and other types

556
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: of therapies including art therapy and equine assisted therapy. Yeah,

557
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: which we've used here often. In Georgia, I think they

558
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: have a pet therapy as well as equine assisted therapy

559
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: has been really helpful in allowing a child to process

560
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: being a child, So that is something. And yeah, getting

561
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: in touch with your inner child can also help. And

562
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: I know this sounds cliche, but for those who have

563
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: experienced pronification, many have stated that they were not allowed

564
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: a childhood or that their childhood was taken from them.

565
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: And being a child needs to be able to grow,

566
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: to learn to make mistakes, and being able to be

567
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: selfish to a healthy extent, and and think of what

568
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: you need and what you want. And an article from

569
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: Psychology Today's stays quote, become a parent and friend to

570
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: your inner child. Take inventory of what you did not

571
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: receive as a child. And what needs still need to

572
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: be met. This is different for everyone. Maybe you didn't

573
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: have a structure as a childhood, so you need it now.

574
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: Maybe you had to intell too much structure as a

575
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: child and you need freedom. Yeah, so part of that

576
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: is honoring your inner child. And this involves create structure

577
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: for yourself if that was something you didn't get as

578
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: a child, playing or or enjoying something that you want

579
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: to do or love to do. Be kind to yourself,

580
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: create safety and boundaries for yourself. And I'm actually working

581
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: on this in therapy right now because I did have

582
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: some purnification as a child and it's I still struggle

583
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: with it. And like in the first time we I

584
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: was supposed to like homework that get in touch with

585
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: my inner child, and it was so much harder than

586
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: I thought it was gonna be. And I was upsetting.

587
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: And she was like, well, what would you say to her?

588
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't know, I don't know.

589
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: So it is. I mean, it's an ongoing work in

590
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: progress for me. Something else is learning to care for yourself.

591
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: That's something we've talked about self care on and on

592
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: on this podcast. It is often denied to young children

593
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: who are parentified because it is seen as selfish or

594
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: self indulgent, and for many people those words are bad words.

595
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: But we need to learn to let that go and

596
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: remember we can't help others if we can't help ourselves.

597
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: Being selfless seems like a nice idea about what happens

598
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: when we empty ourselves out completely and there's just nothing

599
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: that it can easily become a cycle that in turn

600
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: puts more pressure on others to take care of you,

601
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: which means if you have children who have to take

602
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: that mantle up to care for you, that can lead

603
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: to them being parentified as well. Right, And again, yeah,

604
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: we've talked about self care a lot and why it's important,

605
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: but I think it's specifically in regards to parentification because again,

606
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: the compulsive caregiving is really taxing and traumatizing in itself

607
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: and is a result of being perentified. Self care it's

608
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: almost impossible to do if you really haven't worked through

609
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: why you need it, So it is very important that

610
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: you are able to give that to yourself. And we're

611
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: not talking about you have to go for a spaw

612
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: day or whatever. We're just talking about whatever that might be,

613
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: whether it is to take a step back and watch. Shoot,

614
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: what if you love cartoons as a kid, you aren't

615
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: allowed to watch it because you had to care for

616
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: everything else and you didn't have the time watch a cartoon.

617
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: Enjoy that, Enjoy what that brings out in you. And Yeah,

618
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: there's a lot we didn't talk about, especially in this episode,

619
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: that we probably could address. And I know that y'all

620
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: as an audience probably have a lot of experiences and

621
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: a lot of advice and a lot of things that

622
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: you have worked out that you can send to us,

623
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,719
Speaker 1: and we would love to hear that, because that's the

624
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: best way to learn, is when you have someone that

625
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: you can relate to in so many aspects. And again,

626
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: perortification comes through so many different forms. Mine was specific

627
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: to being abandoned. Like my issues are probably more reactive

628
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 1: attachment issues, which I do want to dig in to

629
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: us well later on. But also it takes me to

630
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: grow up very quickly and survival skills, and that's kind

631
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: of what this is. And whether it's you learning that

632
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: you have to provide for others or feeling like that's

633
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: how you have self worth, that's a big conversation and

634
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: to break that down and what that looks like when

635
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 1: you finally start letting that go. And again, this is

636
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: definitely an issue that should be talked about and remembered

637
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: when we look at what's happening with our society and

638
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: while we are the way we are, I think that's

639
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: one of the big things that we have to be

640
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: able to do. It's not necessarily excuse people, but understand people.

641
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: And again, this is a small portion of a much

642
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: larger picture when it comes to relationships, when it comes

643
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: to ourselves and understanding ourselves. And if you have something

644
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: that you think we missed, please let us know. We

645
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: love hearing more infralimation and we love to learn with y'all.

646
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: So yeah, give us that info, yes please, and you

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Speaker 1: can send that to our email. It's just step Media,

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Speaker 1: Mom Stuff that I Hurt Me and dot com. You

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00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter, a mom Stuff podcast, or

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Speaker 1: an Stagram and stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as

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Speaker 1: always to your super producer Christina, Thank you for caring

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Speaker 1: for us, yes, and thanks to you for listening Stuff

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Speaker 1: I Never Told Me, his production of I Heeart Radio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcast from I Heeart Radio, visit the iHeart

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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows,