1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin, I want to do one hundred bucks on yes 2 00:00:24,156 --> 00:00:25,876 Speaker 1: for the A's Yankees score. 3 00:00:25,676 --> 00:00:28,156 Speaker 2: In the first inning, and I want to do one 4 00:00:28,196 --> 00:00:32,036 Speaker 2: hundred bucks on a parlay. That's obviously me many months 5 00:00:32,076 --> 00:00:37,076 Speaker 2: ago at a newish casino in Vegas called Circa, placing 6 00:00:37,116 --> 00:00:40,476 Speaker 2: my very first two sports bets. I bet that yes, 7 00:00:40,916 --> 00:00:42,876 Speaker 2: someone would score in the first inning of the A's 8 00:00:42,996 --> 00:00:46,396 Speaker 2: Yankees game, and I placed a parlay bet on the 9 00:00:46,396 --> 00:00:49,076 Speaker 2: seventy six ers the A's and the Denver Nuggets. Thank 10 00:00:49,076 --> 00:00:52,636 Speaker 2: you very much. I'd only just started to figure out 11 00:00:52,636 --> 00:00:56,196 Speaker 2: sports gambling. I downloaded Fan Duel and DraftKings on my 12 00:00:56,236 --> 00:00:59,476 Speaker 2: phone at home in California, but they wouldn't accept my bets. 13 00:01:00,196 --> 00:01:03,156 Speaker 2: That's how I discovered that sports betting was illegal in California, 14 00:01:03,636 --> 00:01:07,036 Speaker 2: which in and itself was weird. For years, I'd been 15 00:01:07,036 --> 00:01:10,036 Speaker 2: bombarded with ads on my home television trying to get 16 00:01:10,076 --> 00:01:13,076 Speaker 2: me to make some sports bet with fan Duel and DraftKings, 17 00:01:13,676 --> 00:01:15,996 Speaker 2: but the moment I tried to do anything, they told 18 00:01:16,036 --> 00:01:18,556 Speaker 2: me it was against the law. Anyway, I just flown 19 00:01:18,596 --> 00:01:21,196 Speaker 2: to Vegas because if you want to gamble, where else 20 00:01:21,196 --> 00:01:23,996 Speaker 2: are you gonna go? I'm a calm better I'm not 21 00:01:23,996 --> 00:01:26,236 Speaker 2: gonna cheer. I got ice wear in my veins, and 22 00:01:26,996 --> 00:01:30,396 Speaker 2: I just care about my process right, and my process 23 00:01:30,476 --> 00:01:33,556 Speaker 2: is good. It's pulling my bets out of my ass. 24 00:01:33,956 --> 00:01:34,876 Speaker 3: That's my process. 25 00:01:36,876 --> 00:01:40,196 Speaker 2: As always. I'm with LJ, my producer, who at that 26 00:01:40,316 --> 00:01:42,836 Speaker 2: moment was still as innocent about the world of gambling 27 00:01:42,876 --> 00:01:46,556 Speaker 2: as I was. It'll be months before she transforms herself 28 00:01:46,556 --> 00:01:50,196 Speaker 2: into a mule for professional sports gamblers and quickly gets 29 00:01:50,236 --> 00:01:54,276 Speaker 2: her bets rejected from all sorts of sports books. We're 30 00:01:54,316 --> 00:01:56,956 Speaker 2: just standing in this sunken theater staring at twenty different 31 00:01:56,996 --> 00:02:01,236 Speaker 2: sports being played on enormous screens. Outside. Circa had built 32 00:02:01,316 --> 00:02:06,516 Speaker 2: huge swimming pools beneath another gigantic screen. Out there. You 33 00:02:06,556 --> 00:02:09,916 Speaker 2: can float and drink and watch your money vanish. If 34 00:02:09,956 --> 00:02:11,876 Speaker 2: you were sitting there with us inside the Circus Sports 35 00:02:11,916 --> 00:02:15,516 Speaker 2: book and you knew nothing about sports gambling, you might 36 00:02:15,556 --> 00:02:17,276 Speaker 2: think that you were right smack in the middle of 37 00:02:17,316 --> 00:02:21,876 Speaker 2: the sports gambling industry. And obviously I knew nothing but 38 00:02:21,956 --> 00:02:24,156 Speaker 2: my bet that someone would score in the first inning 39 00:02:24,156 --> 00:02:26,636 Speaker 2: of the age Yankees game. So we're one swing away 40 00:02:26,636 --> 00:02:29,876 Speaker 2: from going to collect it was still looking pretty good. 41 00:02:31,756 --> 00:02:34,676 Speaker 2: Oh oh, don't do this, Oh my god. 42 00:02:34,716 --> 00:02:39,316 Speaker 4: It happened. Oh no, I lost. 43 00:02:39,956 --> 00:02:40,876 Speaker 2: How did this happen? 44 00:02:41,756 --> 00:02:42,756 Speaker 4: How did this happen? 45 00:02:43,716 --> 00:02:44,556 Speaker 2: How did this happen? 46 00:02:45,076 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 1: You jaxed me. 47 00:02:47,076 --> 00:02:49,396 Speaker 2: You came here and you jaxed me. I was supposed 48 00:02:49,436 --> 00:02:53,316 Speaker 2: to win and you came your presence, isn't it. 49 00:02:53,316 --> 00:02:53,716 Speaker 5: It's like. 50 00:02:55,436 --> 00:02:57,516 Speaker 2: On the other hand, on the other hand, there's several 51 00:02:57,556 --> 00:03:00,956 Speaker 2: lining here. John's point out, my parlay is looking better 52 00:03:02,356 --> 00:03:06,196 Speaker 2: in Vegas. Hope dies hard. Three different games in two 53 00:03:06,236 --> 00:03:08,756 Speaker 2: different sports needed to break my way for my parlay 54 00:03:08,796 --> 00:03:12,596 Speaker 2: to win, in which case my one hundred dollars would 55 00:03:12,636 --> 00:03:16,436 Speaker 2: turn into over twelve hundred. 56 00:03:16,876 --> 00:03:18,436 Speaker 5: Yeah, we're in to parlay. That would be a big deal. 57 00:03:29,036 --> 00:03:32,636 Speaker 2: I'm Michael Lewis, and this is against the rules, and 58 00:03:32,676 --> 00:03:35,116 Speaker 2: you're gonna have to forgive me my ignorance for a minute, 59 00:03:35,356 --> 00:03:38,756 Speaker 2: because I was just getting started. I didn't know that 60 00:03:38,836 --> 00:03:41,436 Speaker 2: a parlay was the dumbest sports bet you could make, 61 00:03:42,236 --> 00:03:43,876 Speaker 2: nor did I know that if you want to see 62 00:03:43,876 --> 00:03:46,836 Speaker 2: the future of sports gambling in America, the last place 63 00:03:46,916 --> 00:03:50,236 Speaker 2: to be was a Vegas casino. That Vegas was a 64 00:03:50,276 --> 00:03:53,316 Speaker 2: sort of PG thirteen, and all the adult stuff was 65 00:03:53,316 --> 00:03:57,716 Speaker 2: in other states. And I had no idea why California 66 00:03:57,716 --> 00:04:00,356 Speaker 2: of all places, was banning an activity that was now 67 00:04:00,396 --> 00:04:03,156 Speaker 2: legal in most other states. But I was about to 68 00:04:03,196 --> 00:04:18,676 Speaker 2: find out. Way back in two thousand and eight, during 69 00:04:18,676 --> 00:04:22,316 Speaker 2: the Global financial crisis, I remember thinking how weird it 70 00:04:22,516 --> 00:04:25,436 Speaker 2: was that it played out so differently from country to country. 71 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:29,036 Speaker 2: In the years leading up to the event, every developed 72 00:04:29,076 --> 00:04:32,956 Speaker 2: country was subjected to the same temptation. Everyone was basically 73 00:04:33,076 --> 00:04:35,636 Speaker 2: left alone in a room with a giant pile of money. 74 00:04:36,516 --> 00:04:39,076 Speaker 2: But what people wanted to do with that money differed 75 00:04:39,076 --> 00:04:42,356 Speaker 2: from country to country. The Irish wanted to create an 76 00:04:42,356 --> 00:04:46,836 Speaker 2: insane commercial real estate boom. Iceland's three hundred thousand citizens 77 00:04:47,076 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 2: wanted to have three of the world's biggest banks. The 78 00:04:50,076 --> 00:04:53,036 Speaker 2: Greeks turned their state into a pinata for its citizens 79 00:04:53,076 --> 00:04:55,636 Speaker 2: to whack at. It was like you could go from 80 00:04:55,636 --> 00:04:58,956 Speaker 2: place to place and see how these cultures differed by 81 00:04:58,996 --> 00:05:04,556 Speaker 2: their financial kinks. One country's yuck was another's yum. You 82 00:05:04,556 --> 00:05:06,276 Speaker 2: can see the same sort of thing right now in 83 00:05:06,316 --> 00:05:11,196 Speaker 2: the United States with sports gambling. Since twenty eighteen, when 84 00:05:11,196 --> 00:05:14,236 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court ruled that states could legalize sports gambling, 85 00:05:14,756 --> 00:05:19,516 Speaker 2: every state has struggled with this new temptation. Actually, most 86 00:05:19,516 --> 00:05:23,196 Speaker 2: haven't struggled very much, But as I'm recording this, eleven 87 00:05:23,276 --> 00:05:28,356 Speaker 2: states are still holding out against legalization. My own state, California, 88 00:05:28,796 --> 00:05:34,676 Speaker 2: but also Texas, Idaho, Utah, Minnesota, Alabama, Georgia, Oklahoma, Alaska, 89 00:05:34,756 --> 00:05:39,556 Speaker 2: South Carolina, and Hawaii. These sports gambling holdouts are each 90 00:05:39,636 --> 00:05:42,876 Speaker 2: kind of cool in their own way. No two are 91 00:05:42,916 --> 00:05:48,796 Speaker 2: exactly alike, but many share a similar reservation, a moral reservation. 92 00:05:49,796 --> 00:05:54,076 Speaker 6: Our focus was on addictive behaviors of moral issues in general, 93 00:05:54,116 --> 00:05:58,996 Speaker 6: but particularly addictive behavior's alcohol, tobacco, gambling, marijuana, those kinds 94 00:05:58,996 --> 00:05:59,436 Speaker 6: of things. 95 00:06:00,276 --> 00:06:04,796 Speaker 2: That's Reverend Joe Godfrey, a lobbyist for Alabama's many Southern 96 00:06:04,836 --> 00:06:08,436 Speaker 2: Baptist churches and a leading opponent of sports gambling in 97 00:06:08,476 --> 00:06:12,276 Speaker 2: southern state. What does the Bible have to say about 98 00:06:12,316 --> 00:06:13,476 Speaker 2: gambling specifically? 99 00:06:14,276 --> 00:06:16,316 Speaker 6: First of all, gambling is a part of the get 100 00:06:16,396 --> 00:06:20,916 Speaker 6: rich or get something for nothing mentality, a get rich 101 00:06:21,076 --> 00:06:24,476 Speaker 6: quick syndrome that characterizes our culture today. But one of 102 00:06:24,516 --> 00:06:27,556 Speaker 6: the Ten Commandments says in Exodus twenty verses three and 103 00:06:27,756 --> 00:06:29,996 Speaker 6: three and five, but in verse three particularly you shall 104 00:06:30,036 --> 00:06:32,636 Speaker 6: not you shall have no other gods before me. 105 00:06:33,876 --> 00:06:35,676 Speaker 2: When you're looking for something to tell you what you 106 00:06:35,796 --> 00:06:38,516 Speaker 2: can't do, there's, of course no book is useful as 107 00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:41,596 Speaker 2: the Bible, but even I was a little surprised by 108 00:06:41,596 --> 00:06:44,116 Speaker 2: how many ways the Bible tells you not to gamble, 109 00:06:44,716 --> 00:06:46,236 Speaker 2: and so I've had to leave out most of the 110 00:06:46,276 --> 00:06:49,156 Speaker 2: reverend speech on the subject. But he ended with this 111 00:06:50,036 --> 00:06:50,956 Speaker 2: the fourth principle. 112 00:06:50,996 --> 00:06:54,876 Speaker 6: Gambling is a form of covetousness and greed. But the 113 00:06:54,916 --> 00:06:57,516 Speaker 6: Bible says in Exodus twenty, verse seventeen, you shall not 114 00:06:57,556 --> 00:07:00,796 Speaker 6: covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, 115 00:07:00,916 --> 00:07:03,316 Speaker 6: or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, 116 00:07:03,396 --> 00:07:05,716 Speaker 6: or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbors. That's 117 00:07:05,796 --> 00:07:09,956 Speaker 6: almost half of the ten commandments that address the issues 118 00:07:09,996 --> 00:07:11,116 Speaker 6: related to gambling. 119 00:07:12,676 --> 00:07:14,756 Speaker 2: I sort of think that you should just feel what 120 00:07:14,796 --> 00:07:18,276 Speaker 2: you feel for your neighbors donkey. But enough people in 121 00:07:18,316 --> 00:07:21,556 Speaker 2: Alabama believe what Reverend Joe Godfrey believes. That he won 122 00:07:21,636 --> 00:07:25,996 Speaker 2: his first skirmish with fan Duel and DraftKings, the lobbyist 123 00:07:26,036 --> 00:07:28,916 Speaker 2: for DraftKings got so irritated that he named his fantasy 124 00:07:28,996 --> 00:07:33,796 Speaker 2: sports team doctor Joe Gottfrey. The Southern Baptist fought and 125 00:07:33,836 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 2: won battles not just in Alabama, but also in Georgia 126 00:07:36,956 --> 00:07:41,196 Speaker 2: and South Carolina. In Utah, the Mormon Church has prevented 127 00:07:41,236 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 2: sports gambling on religious grounds. But to me, the Mormons 128 00:07:44,516 --> 00:07:47,756 Speaker 2: feel different. The Mormon Church just runs the show in 129 00:07:47,876 --> 00:07:50,236 Speaker 2: Utah and no one really argues much about whether they 130 00:07:50,236 --> 00:07:52,796 Speaker 2: should drink Coca cola or have thirty nine children, and 131 00:07:52,836 --> 00:07:55,916 Speaker 2: somehow that all works for them. The Mormons, of course, 132 00:07:55,916 --> 00:07:58,676 Speaker 2: would love to convert you, when when that fails, they 133 00:07:58,716 --> 00:08:01,196 Speaker 2: sort of leave you alone and maybe even speed you 134 00:08:01,276 --> 00:08:05,996 Speaker 2: along your journey to hell. For decades, Mormons basically ran 135 00:08:06,116 --> 00:08:09,756 Speaker 2: the money into Vegas casinos, and that was fine as 136 00:08:09,756 --> 00:08:14,396 Speaker 2: long as they did in themselves gamble. Southern Baptists aren't 137 00:08:14,476 --> 00:08:18,236 Speaker 2: like that. They're surrounded by people who don't share their views, 138 00:08:18,956 --> 00:08:22,636 Speaker 2: and they want to stop everyone from gambling. That's a 139 00:08:22,676 --> 00:08:27,316 Speaker 2: way bigger lift. Do you have any sense of where 140 00:08:27,316 --> 00:08:30,116 Speaker 2: this is headed if you had to bet where Alabama 141 00:08:30,276 --> 00:08:32,236 Speaker 2: law is going to be ten or fifteen years in 142 00:08:32,236 --> 00:08:32,676 Speaker 2: the future. 143 00:08:33,636 --> 00:08:37,316 Speaker 6: First of all, the gambling forces never stop. They come 144 00:08:37,356 --> 00:08:40,396 Speaker 6: back every year. And what happens is a lot of 145 00:08:40,516 --> 00:08:43,596 Speaker 6: Christians and churches begin to get weary of the battle. 146 00:08:43,876 --> 00:08:45,636 Speaker 6: And that's another thing I have to remind that the 147 00:08:45,676 --> 00:08:48,116 Speaker 6: Bible tells us do not grow weary in doing what 148 00:08:48,276 --> 00:08:51,516 Speaker 6: is good and doing what is right. But the fact 149 00:08:51,556 --> 00:08:55,076 Speaker 6: is that churches get tired of the fight. Gambling crowd 150 00:08:55,716 --> 00:08:56,476 Speaker 6: never gets tired. 151 00:08:57,716 --> 00:09:01,756 Speaker 2: The sound you hear in that voice, that's resignation. He 152 00:09:01,876 --> 00:09:04,596 Speaker 2: knows he's going to lose. The Wall Street analysts I 153 00:09:04,636 --> 00:09:07,636 Speaker 2: talk to who follow the industry think Alabama will legalize 154 00:09:07,676 --> 00:09:11,716 Speaker 2: sports gambling in the next year or two. Anyway, the 155 00:09:11,716 --> 00:09:14,756 Speaker 2: Southern Baptists aren't the main story here because the main 156 00:09:14,836 --> 00:09:18,796 Speaker 2: story is no longer really about morality. It's about money. 157 00:09:19,916 --> 00:09:22,916 Speaker 2: More than one hundred million Americans are still being denied 158 00:09:22,996 --> 00:09:26,796 Speaker 2: legal access to the new sports gambling apps. The vast 159 00:09:26,836 --> 00:09:30,636 Speaker 2: majority live in states without any obvious moral reservations to gambling. 160 00:09:31,956 --> 00:09:37,356 Speaker 2: What they have instead are actual reservations blasting ads like this. 161 00:09:37,996 --> 00:09:42,836 Speaker 3: Discover your perfect combination at Batana Resort Casino where you 162 00:09:42,916 --> 00:09:55,076 Speaker 3: can rock and roll. 163 00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:58,716 Speaker 2: There's a very long story about how casino gambling came 164 00:09:58,756 --> 00:10:03,076 Speaker 2: to Indian reservations. It's too good to totally ignore, but 165 00:10:03,156 --> 00:10:04,916 Speaker 2: let me just give you the short version of it. 166 00:10:05,596 --> 00:10:08,116 Speaker 7: If you had all these different little Bengal halls, so 167 00:10:08,356 --> 00:10:12,156 Speaker 7: tribes were sort of able to offer that without any 168 00:10:12,516 --> 00:10:15,596 Speaker 7: outside regulation, or if it was illegal in the state, 169 00:10:15,836 --> 00:10:16,996 Speaker 7: tribes could still offer it. 170 00:10:18,276 --> 00:10:20,916 Speaker 2: That's Steve Ruddick, who writes a newsletter on the sports 171 00:10:20,956 --> 00:10:23,916 Speaker 2: gambling industry, and he says no one paid the tribes 172 00:10:23,996 --> 00:10:27,116 Speaker 2: much attention at first, but in the early nineteen eighties, 173 00:10:27,396 --> 00:10:32,196 Speaker 2: the reservation's bingo games became bingo machines, and the bingo 174 00:10:32,276 --> 00:10:36,036 Speaker 2: machines were basically slot machines. O kis, do you have 175 00:10:36,076 --> 00:10:39,476 Speaker 2: any idea what tribe first put the slot machine in 176 00:10:39,516 --> 00:10:40,196 Speaker 2: the bingo hall. 177 00:10:41,036 --> 00:10:42,916 Speaker 7: I'm going to draw a blank onto the tribe. But 178 00:10:42,956 --> 00:10:45,396 Speaker 7: it was in Minnesota, and it was like bingo machines 179 00:10:45,436 --> 00:10:48,436 Speaker 7: in someone's garage on the reservation. This stided to get 180 00:10:48,516 --> 00:10:50,116 Speaker 7: legal challenges. 181 00:10:50,356 --> 00:10:54,836 Speaker 2: Actually more than legal challenges and more than just Minnesota. 182 00:10:54,956 --> 00:10:57,716 Speaker 2: In Florida, a local sheriff threatened the Seminole tribe with 183 00:10:57,836 --> 00:11:01,036 Speaker 2: force unless they shut down the bingo games. There was 184 00:11:01,076 --> 00:11:04,996 Speaker 2: also some fighting in California and Michigan. Lawsuits filled the air. 185 00:11:05,836 --> 00:11:09,236 Speaker 2: One reached the Supreme Court in nineteen eighty seven. The 186 00:11:09,276 --> 00:11:12,596 Speaker 2: Supreme Court ruled that states couldn't prevent the Native Americans 187 00:11:12,596 --> 00:11:15,556 Speaker 2: from doing anything on their own reservations that was legal. 188 00:11:15,636 --> 00:11:20,756 Speaker 2: Off the reservations. A pattern soon emerged. The federal government, 189 00:11:20,876 --> 00:11:24,556 Speaker 2: responsible for giving financial support to tribes, tended to smile 190 00:11:24,676 --> 00:11:27,756 Speaker 2: upon activities that might reduce the need for that support. 191 00:11:28,756 --> 00:11:32,036 Speaker 2: State and local governments tended to frown on activities such 192 00:11:32,036 --> 00:11:35,356 Speaker 2: as gambling, that might transfer money from their coffers to 193 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:39,276 Speaker 2: the tribes. In nineteen eighty eight, Congress finally passed a 194 00:11:39,356 --> 00:11:43,636 Speaker 2: law Indian tribes could offer bingo without asking for permission. 195 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:46,716 Speaker 2: If they wanted to open a casino, they needed to 196 00:11:46,716 --> 00:11:49,956 Speaker 2: cut a deal with the state, and so tribes began 197 00:11:49,996 --> 00:11:53,916 Speaker 2: to cut deals with the states. One odd fact, there 198 00:11:53,956 --> 00:11:57,196 Speaker 2: was only the loosest correlation between where Native Americans received 199 00:11:57,196 --> 00:12:00,596 Speaker 2: a license to open a casino and where Native Americans 200 00:12:00,716 --> 00:12:06,036 Speaker 2: actually lived. Connecticut has huge tribal casinos, but not very 201 00:12:06,036 --> 00:12:10,116 Speaker 2: many Native Americans. Alaska has a lot of Native Americans, 202 00:12:10,556 --> 00:12:11,836 Speaker 2: but hardly any casinos. 203 00:12:12,756 --> 00:12:15,236 Speaker 7: Well, it turns out that a lot of tribes are 204 00:12:15,276 --> 00:12:20,156 Speaker 7: pretty sharp, and ninety two you got Foxwoods, So all 205 00:12:20,156 --> 00:12:22,236 Speaker 7: these tribes suddenly were like, hey, you know what, people 206 00:12:22,276 --> 00:12:25,036 Speaker 7: are going to travel these casinos. Then you started getting 207 00:12:25,036 --> 00:12:27,316 Speaker 7: commercial casinos also coming into the fold. 208 00:12:27,516 --> 00:12:28,276 Speaker 4: Some have both. 209 00:12:28,636 --> 00:12:31,796 Speaker 2: And how big has this been for the tribes huge. 210 00:12:32,156 --> 00:12:34,276 Speaker 7: One of my favorite stories to tell about this is 211 00:12:34,436 --> 00:12:35,796 Speaker 7: the sand Manuel Tribe. 212 00:12:36,436 --> 00:12:39,556 Speaker 2: The sand Menuel Tribe resides just outside of Los Angeles. 213 00:12:39,876 --> 00:12:44,756 Speaker 7: They're basically one of the biggest tribal casinos in the country, 214 00:12:44,916 --> 00:12:50,116 Speaker 7: like billions of dollars of revenue. Before that, doctors used 215 00:12:50,116 --> 00:12:53,396 Speaker 7: to ride in on horseback to the reservation to give 216 00:12:53,596 --> 00:12:57,116 Speaker 7: kids their vaccines for free. So now this tribe is 217 00:12:57,156 --> 00:13:02,476 Speaker 7: now making billions of dollars over the years they donated 218 00:13:02,556 --> 00:13:07,116 Speaker 7: to that hospital that was doing That's that's the difference 219 00:13:07,156 --> 00:13:08,476 Speaker 7: of it. 220 00:13:09,316 --> 00:13:11,396 Speaker 2: Sense is that they were granted this right because the 221 00:13:11,436 --> 00:13:13,476 Speaker 2: people who granted them this right didn't think it was 222 00:13:13,956 --> 00:13:14,716 Speaker 2: that valuable. 223 00:13:15,116 --> 00:13:19,956 Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly when it happened, it wasn't expected to be 224 00:13:20,036 --> 00:13:20,556 Speaker 7: what it is. 225 00:13:22,836 --> 00:13:25,356 Speaker 2: The same thing that happened in California also happened in 226 00:13:25,396 --> 00:13:29,836 Speaker 2: the least likely places. In Oklahoma. The Chickasaw Nation opened 227 00:13:29,876 --> 00:13:32,796 Speaker 2: a casino on the Texas border that soon became the 228 00:13:32,796 --> 00:13:36,836 Speaker 2: biggest in the world and effectively controlled the Texas market. 229 00:13:37,716 --> 00:13:40,596 Speaker 2: In Florida, the Seminole seized control of gambling in the 230 00:13:40,716 --> 00:13:44,316 Speaker 2: entire state, but then came the Supreme Court ruling of 231 00:13:44,356 --> 00:13:49,796 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen that allowed states to legalize sports gambling, and 232 00:13:49,876 --> 00:13:53,796 Speaker 2: the lobbyists for fandueling DraftKings were suddenly everywhere. 233 00:13:54,916 --> 00:13:59,796 Speaker 8: These companies, backed by Wall Street, basically swooped into California. 234 00:13:59,836 --> 00:14:02,236 Speaker 8: I think, kind of confident that they could do what 235 00:14:02,276 --> 00:14:03,516 Speaker 8: they did in every other state. 236 00:14:04,196 --> 00:14:07,596 Speaker 2: That's Gus Garcia Roberts of the Washington Post, who covered 237 00:14:07,636 --> 00:14:10,316 Speaker 2: the first battle in this new war war. That was 238 00:14:10,356 --> 00:14:13,636 Speaker 2: back in twenty twenty two when fan Duel and DraftKings 239 00:14:13,636 --> 00:14:17,236 Speaker 2: and some other sports gambling companies sponsored a California ballot 240 00:14:17,276 --> 00:14:20,036 Speaker 2: proposition to legalize mobile sports betting. 241 00:14:20,876 --> 00:14:24,796 Speaker 8: I love the name of the proposition that these companies 242 00:14:26,116 --> 00:14:29,076 Speaker 8: ultimately pushed forward, which is I haven't written down here. 243 00:14:29,116 --> 00:14:32,916 Speaker 8: It's Californians for Solutions to Homelessness and Mental Health support 244 00:14:33,316 --> 00:14:37,156 Speaker 8: a coalition of housing and mental health experts, concern tax payers, 245 00:14:37,476 --> 00:14:40,676 Speaker 8: and digital sports, entertainment and gaming companies. 246 00:14:41,076 --> 00:14:45,596 Speaker 9: For Permanent Solutions to homelessness, mental health, and addiction in California. 247 00:14:45,916 --> 00:14:49,996 Speaker 9: Prop twenty seven supports financially disadvantaged tribes that don't own 248 00:14:49,996 --> 00:14:51,356 Speaker 9: big casinos. 249 00:14:52,356 --> 00:14:54,676 Speaker 2: What were we actually voting on when we were voting 250 00:14:54,716 --> 00:14:55,556 Speaker 2: on this proposition? 251 00:14:56,076 --> 00:15:00,276 Speaker 8: So what you were actually voting on was the legalization 252 00:15:00,356 --> 00:15:02,476 Speaker 8: of mobile sports betting in the state. There would have 253 00:15:02,476 --> 00:15:06,996 Speaker 8: been minimal kind of involvement of California tribes. These companies 254 00:15:07,556 --> 00:15:11,876 Speaker 8: had it was kind of an ingenious strategy in order 255 00:15:11,956 --> 00:15:18,436 Speaker 8: to I guess divide the tribes. Their proposition would have 256 00:15:18,476 --> 00:15:21,756 Speaker 8: benefited some of the smaller tribes that are not near 257 00:15:21,876 --> 00:15:24,916 Speaker 8: cities and so did not have very lucrative gaming operations, 258 00:15:26,796 --> 00:15:30,036 Speaker 8: and and so it would have made California like any 259 00:15:30,076 --> 00:15:31,916 Speaker 8: of the other states where you can just kind of 260 00:15:32,116 --> 00:15:35,596 Speaker 8: gabble on sports on your phone. Everybody I spoke to 261 00:15:36,156 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 8: they were just moved by commercials that they thought were 262 00:15:39,596 --> 00:15:41,876 Speaker 8: for a proposition that was going to finally do something 263 00:15:41,876 --> 00:15:46,516 Speaker 8: about homelessness or you know, mental health. 264 00:15:46,876 --> 00:15:50,436 Speaker 10: Twenty seven means getting people off the streets and into housing. 265 00:15:50,916 --> 00:15:52,156 Speaker 11: Yes on twenty seven. 266 00:15:54,196 --> 00:15:55,916 Speaker 8: There was one guy who I spoke to who was 267 00:15:55,956 --> 00:15:59,156 Speaker 8: a truck driver and he was passing through California and 268 00:15:59,196 --> 00:16:03,436 Speaker 8: he was just saddened by the homelessness situation. And then 269 00:16:03,476 --> 00:16:05,436 Speaker 8: he was in his motel room and he saw the 270 00:16:05,516 --> 00:16:09,316 Speaker 8: ad and he decided to contribute what he could. 271 00:16:09,596 --> 00:16:09,836 Speaker 5: To me. 272 00:16:09,956 --> 00:16:13,516 Speaker 8: That really encapsulated the confusion around these ballot measures. 273 00:16:13,756 --> 00:16:18,476 Speaker 2: Not just confusion duplicity. It's sort of like FanDuel draving. 274 00:16:18,876 --> 00:16:21,796 Speaker 2: They're foul hooking donors by persuading them that they're doing 275 00:16:21,836 --> 00:16:23,316 Speaker 2: something other than what they're doing. 276 00:16:23,996 --> 00:16:27,076 Speaker 8: Right, And it's not like those companies were reliant on 277 00:16:27,116 --> 00:16:29,356 Speaker 8: one hundred dollars from the truck driver. But it really 278 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:34,436 Speaker 8: showed how they were trying to, you know, essentially, if 279 00:16:34,476 --> 00:16:38,116 Speaker 8: not mislead, at least hoodwing Californians into not really knowing 280 00:16:38,156 --> 00:16:40,556 Speaker 8: the true purpose of these propositions. 281 00:16:41,156 --> 00:16:44,956 Speaker 2: But Proposition twenty seven did not go unopposed. From the 282 00:16:44,996 --> 00:16:48,116 Speaker 2: moment the lobbyists from FanDuel and DraftKings massed along the 283 00:16:48,156 --> 00:16:52,476 Speaker 2: California border, they'd been spotted by Indian Scouts because the 284 00:16:52,556 --> 00:16:55,636 Speaker 2: tribes knew from bitter experience that the white man had 285 00:16:55,676 --> 00:16:58,396 Speaker 2: a gift for what the white man called Indian giving. 286 00:16:59,396 --> 00:17:01,796 Speaker 11: We want this thing in perpetuity. 287 00:17:01,116 --> 00:17:01,676 Speaker 5: You know what I mean. 288 00:17:02,396 --> 00:17:05,876 Speaker 2: That's Victor Rocha, conference chairman of the Indian Gaming Association. 289 00:17:06,556 --> 00:17:09,396 Speaker 11: Hey, listen, if the Indians from one hundred years ago 290 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:11,596 Speaker 11: would have had the lawyers we had, you know what 291 00:17:11,636 --> 00:17:14,076 Speaker 11: I mean, it'd be a whole different story in America. 292 00:17:14,476 --> 00:17:16,516 Speaker 11: We would be instead of bows and arrows, we'd be 293 00:17:16,556 --> 00:17:20,036 Speaker 11: checking attorneys. Excuse me, mister Custer. You know, mister Shinebaum, 294 00:17:20,156 --> 00:17:21,196 Speaker 11: my attorney. 295 00:17:21,476 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 2: Quivers loaded with shinebombs. The California Tribes watched and waited. 296 00:17:27,316 --> 00:17:30,036 Speaker 11: We saw those pricks right on the horizon. We saw 297 00:17:30,076 --> 00:17:30,596 Speaker 11: them coming. 298 00:17:30,836 --> 00:17:31,836 Speaker 2: You did see them coming. 299 00:17:32,356 --> 00:17:35,156 Speaker 11: We saw coming Tom all Away. It was very obvious. 300 00:17:35,236 --> 00:17:39,876 Speaker 11: Because we're Native Americans, we suspect everyone and everyone. If 301 00:17:39,876 --> 00:17:43,596 Speaker 11: it isn't Steve Wynn and the pricks at MGM, then 302 00:17:43,676 --> 00:17:48,116 Speaker 11: it's then it's these new version of an old version 303 00:17:48,276 --> 00:17:51,156 Speaker 11: of the guy. We kind of believe these guys are 304 00:17:51,276 --> 00:17:54,276 Speaker 11: the same mindset. 305 00:17:54,756 --> 00:17:58,076 Speaker 2: It must be odd, you know, to know that your 306 00:17:58,196 --> 00:18:01,196 Speaker 2: role always is to wait for the peace treaty to 307 00:18:01,276 --> 00:18:05,396 Speaker 2: be somehow violated. In this case, the California tribe saw 308 00:18:05,396 --> 00:18:09,796 Speaker 2: a very specific threat. By law, their casino were confined 309 00:18:09,836 --> 00:18:13,276 Speaker 2: to their reservations. If Californians were allowed to bet on 310 00:18:13,276 --> 00:18:17,076 Speaker 2: their phones, no one would bother to drive to the reservations. 311 00:18:17,756 --> 00:18:21,556 Speaker 2: Sports gambling was just a trojan horse. Eventually, they could 312 00:18:21,596 --> 00:18:25,276 Speaker 2: imagine every Californian would have an entire casino in their pockets, 313 00:18:26,316 --> 00:18:30,036 Speaker 2: a casino run out by tribes, but by FanDuel and DraftKings. 314 00:18:30,996 --> 00:18:32,956 Speaker 11: These guys are like, we're not going to wait for 315 00:18:33,036 --> 00:18:37,156 Speaker 11: you guys to get out of same foot. They saw 316 00:18:37,196 --> 00:18:40,956 Speaker 11: it as an opportunity to screw us, and that's what happened. 317 00:18:41,676 --> 00:18:44,476 Speaker 2: That's what had already happened in other states, even states 318 00:18:44,516 --> 00:18:50,116 Speaker 2: with big tribal casinos. Arizona, for example, FanDuel and DraftKings 319 00:18:50,116 --> 00:18:53,796 Speaker 2: talk to the Arizona legislature into handing out twenty sports 320 00:18:53,796 --> 00:18:58,076 Speaker 2: gambling licenses, ten to tribes, ten to companies like FanDuel 321 00:18:58,116 --> 00:19:02,356 Speaker 2: and DraftKings, and also sports teams themselves. They made it 322 00:19:02,396 --> 00:19:05,356 Speaker 2: sound like a fair competition, but in no time at all, 323 00:19:05,476 --> 00:19:07,636 Speaker 2: FanDuel and DraftKings routed the field. 324 00:19:08,516 --> 00:19:12,356 Speaker 11: Listen, I hold DraftKings to their face. I go listen, 325 00:19:12,476 --> 00:19:15,236 Speaker 11: if you come into California, we are gonna curb stomp you. 326 00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:18,996 Speaker 11: And they got pissed off, you know, they because they go, no, no, 327 00:19:19,036 --> 00:19:19,836 Speaker 11: we're your friends. 328 00:19:20,036 --> 00:19:21,836 Speaker 2: So you didn't you didn't trust them? 329 00:19:22,316 --> 00:19:25,196 Speaker 11: Oh fuck no, man, do you trust them? 330 00:19:25,796 --> 00:19:26,036 Speaker 5: You know? 331 00:19:26,636 --> 00:19:29,916 Speaker 11: These are the same guys that scooters for water, the 332 00:19:29,996 --> 00:19:34,356 Speaker 11: scooters for land, different package, same schools. You know, it's 333 00:19:34,396 --> 00:19:38,396 Speaker 11: this NBA mentality, you know what I mean. They're smarter 334 00:19:38,556 --> 00:19:40,876 Speaker 11: than you. They know the future of the world. They're 335 00:19:40,916 --> 00:19:43,276 Speaker 11: gonna plant it. We're just riding along. So all of 336 00:19:43,316 --> 00:19:46,196 Speaker 11: a sudden they come into California and so we tell them, 337 00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:47,396 Speaker 11: don't do it. 338 00:19:47,636 --> 00:19:50,316 Speaker 2: Did any part of you think they're gonna be too 339 00:19:50,356 --> 00:19:52,156 Speaker 2: powerful and they're gonna overwhelm us? 340 00:19:52,796 --> 00:19:55,996 Speaker 11: No, No, not at all. Never had a doubt one second. 341 00:19:56,436 --> 00:19:58,996 Speaker 11: You need a great villain in a story, and they 342 00:19:59,036 --> 00:20:02,876 Speaker 11: were great villains in this narrative. They make great villains. 343 00:20:03,516 --> 00:20:07,876 Speaker 2: That feels to me just very true. Fand and DraftKings 344 00:20:08,156 --> 00:20:11,996 Speaker 2: make great villains. Why they make great villains is another matter, 345 00:20:12,636 --> 00:20:14,956 Speaker 2: stick a pin in that question. We'll come back to 346 00:20:14,996 --> 00:20:18,596 Speaker 2: it in a little while. Anyway, the California Tribes fought 347 00:20:18,596 --> 00:20:22,716 Speaker 2: Prop twenty seven with their own ballot initiative. There's proposed 348 00:20:22,716 --> 00:20:27,356 Speaker 2: limiting sports gambling to reservations. The two sides then vaporized 349 00:20:27,396 --> 00:20:31,716 Speaker 2: half a billion dollars, trashing each other's propositions. After the 350 00:20:31,796 --> 00:20:36,516 Speaker 2: dust settled, both propositions failed and nothing changed, which was 351 00:20:36,556 --> 00:20:38,876 Speaker 2: a huge win for the Indian Gaming Association. 352 00:20:40,036 --> 00:20:42,876 Speaker 11: That's why Fandel and DraftKings are so freaked out right 353 00:20:42,916 --> 00:20:46,756 Speaker 11: now that that when we won, the day after, the 354 00:20:46,796 --> 00:20:50,316 Speaker 11: tribes go fuck you, you're not coming into our market. 355 00:20:50,356 --> 00:20:53,436 Speaker 11: The name fandel and DraftKings will not exist in this market. 356 00:20:54,076 --> 00:20:56,476 Speaker 2: If you go out kind of imagine out twenty years. 357 00:20:56,476 --> 00:21:00,556 Speaker 2: Can you imagine mobile sports betting in California but run 358 00:21:00,596 --> 00:21:01,276 Speaker 2: by the tribes? 359 00:21:01,956 --> 00:21:02,156 Speaker 5: Yes? 360 00:21:02,596 --> 00:21:05,836 Speaker 11: Absolutely, and that's what they're doing in Florida. What the 361 00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:08,676 Speaker 11: tribes in Florida did that freaked everybody out is the 362 00:21:08,716 --> 00:21:11,316 Speaker 11: seven said, you know what, We're gonna have mobile sports betting. 363 00:21:11,516 --> 00:21:14,036 Speaker 11: We're gonna have all this everything you want, but everything 364 00:21:14,156 --> 00:21:15,116 Speaker 11: goes through us. 365 00:21:16,516 --> 00:21:19,276 Speaker 2: It sounds good, but I'm not so sure things are 366 00:21:19,276 --> 00:21:23,396 Speaker 2: gonna go Victor's way. There's something weird about this industry 367 00:21:23,396 --> 00:21:27,436 Speaker 2: and something unstoppable about these two companies, FanDuel and DraftKings. 368 00:21:28,556 --> 00:21:31,636 Speaker 2: There've been some skirmishes, the Indians have won a few 369 00:21:31,636 --> 00:21:35,876 Speaker 2: of them, but the war that's not even close to over. 370 00:21:47,236 --> 00:21:49,516 Speaker 2: In the run up to the global financial crisis, back 371 00:21:49,556 --> 00:21:51,716 Speaker 2: in like two thousand and six and two thousand and seven, 372 00:21:52,516 --> 00:21:54,716 Speaker 2: there was a character who was the first to see 373 00:21:54,756 --> 00:21:59,676 Speaker 2: that something was off. The short seller, the character who 374 00:21:59,676 --> 00:22:02,876 Speaker 2: makes us living by finding companies or whole countries to 375 00:22:02,916 --> 00:22:07,596 Speaker 2: bet against. People love to hate short sellers. They seem 376 00:22:07,676 --> 00:22:11,316 Speaker 2: so negative, so hostile to other people's hopes and dreams. 377 00:22:12,156 --> 00:22:15,956 Speaker 2: But short sellers are also incredibly useful, more than useful 378 00:22:16,196 --> 00:22:19,156 Speaker 2: necessary because you learn a lot when you think about 379 00:22:19,156 --> 00:22:20,156 Speaker 2: the other side of the bet. 380 00:22:20,836 --> 00:22:23,116 Speaker 5: I think we got an average price of about forty 381 00:22:23,156 --> 00:22:26,316 Speaker 5: and I think we averaged exit was about fifteen. So 382 00:22:26,596 --> 00:22:29,236 Speaker 5: you never get the highs of the lowest, but it 383 00:22:29,276 --> 00:22:30,476 Speaker 5: was a successful position. 384 00:22:31,676 --> 00:22:36,156 Speaker 2: That's Jim Chaino's maybe the world's most famous short seller. Actually, 385 00:22:36,236 --> 00:22:39,516 Speaker 2: if you google world's most famous short seller, a picture 386 00:22:39,556 --> 00:22:42,796 Speaker 2: of Jim Cheno's pops up. In his spare time, he 387 00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 2: teaches a course at Yale on financial fraud, which well, 388 00:22:45,916 --> 00:22:48,556 Speaker 2: of course he does, and he has a track record 389 00:22:48,796 --> 00:22:53,316 Speaker 2: of successfully betting against gambling companies. He did it first 390 00:22:53,356 --> 00:22:56,196 Speaker 2: back in two thousand and five after a bunch of 391 00:22:56,236 --> 00:22:59,636 Speaker 2: online poker sides sold stock to the public, and he 392 00:22:59,716 --> 00:23:01,716 Speaker 2: read their prospectuses. 393 00:23:01,676 --> 00:23:04,916 Speaker 5: And in the board of directors section there was a 394 00:23:04,996 --> 00:23:08,356 Speaker 5: list of five or six people who were on the 395 00:23:08,356 --> 00:23:11,556 Speaker 5: board of this particulicular online poker company, and at the 396 00:23:11,716 --> 00:23:14,716 Speaker 5: very end of one of the listings it said, mister 397 00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:17,396 Speaker 5: so and so is currently a fugitive from justice. 398 00:23:18,316 --> 00:23:21,036 Speaker 2: Jim Chenos just loves it when the board of directors 399 00:23:21,036 --> 00:23:24,196 Speaker 2: are fugitives from justice. I mean I kind of thumbed 400 00:23:24,196 --> 00:23:24,756 Speaker 2: it all up. 401 00:23:24,876 --> 00:23:27,316 Speaker 5: These entities were all offshore, a lot of them were 402 00:23:27,356 --> 00:23:30,156 Speaker 5: being used to launder money, which is what things the 403 00:23:30,276 --> 00:23:33,596 Speaker 5: US authorities were worried about at the time, and ultimately 404 00:23:33,716 --> 00:23:34,956 Speaker 5: they all got shut. 405 00:23:34,756 --> 00:23:38,156 Speaker 2: Down hard in the US. All right, so you shorted 406 00:23:38,156 --> 00:23:38,996 Speaker 2: those and it worked. 407 00:23:39,436 --> 00:23:40,476 Speaker 5: Yeah, those worked. 408 00:23:43,316 --> 00:23:47,556 Speaker 2: The poker companies all went bankrupt. Then in twenty twenty one, 409 00:23:48,116 --> 00:23:52,476 Speaker 2: Jim notices these new sports gambling companies, Draft Kings and 410 00:23:52,556 --> 00:23:56,876 Speaker 2: fan Duel. He reads their prospectuses, he sees that they're 411 00:23:56,916 --> 00:23:58,676 Speaker 2: run by some of the same people who ran the 412 00:23:58,716 --> 00:24:05,236 Speaker 2: poker companies. DraftKings goes public and it's stock soares, but 413 00:24:05,316 --> 00:24:08,556 Speaker 2: it's still losing money hand over fist, and it feels 414 00:24:08,556 --> 00:24:11,516 Speaker 2: like those on line poker sites. Jim does a back 415 00:24:11,556 --> 00:24:15,476 Speaker 2: of the envelope calculation in mid twenty twenty one, he 416 00:24:15,556 --> 00:24:20,476 Speaker 2: shorts DraftKings stock, and sure enough, it soon collapses. He 417 00:24:20,556 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 2: buys back the stock and takes a big profit. But then, incredibly, 418 00:24:27,036 --> 00:24:32,716 Speaker 2: Draft Kings bounces back and keeps on rising. And that's 419 00:24:32,756 --> 00:24:35,876 Speaker 2: when Jim Chainos realizes he screwed up. 420 00:24:36,956 --> 00:24:39,796 Speaker 5: We made a fundamental error in that we modeled out 421 00:24:39,836 --> 00:24:44,956 Speaker 5: the business based on it being the same economics as 422 00:24:44,956 --> 00:24:48,116 Speaker 5: a typical Vegas you know, sports book at a casino 423 00:24:48,236 --> 00:24:52,636 Speaker 5: well basically and historically has earned five to six percent 424 00:24:52,796 --> 00:24:56,076 Speaker 5: on the amount wagered. And that's been a That five 425 00:24:56,116 --> 00:24:58,756 Speaker 5: to six percent number has been kind of static for 426 00:24:58,916 --> 00:25:00,516 Speaker 5: years and years and years. 427 00:25:01,396 --> 00:25:07,076 Speaker 2: But DraftKings wasn't a casino. It was something else, something new, 428 00:25:08,036 --> 00:25:09,356 Speaker 2: something very weird. 429 00:25:10,396 --> 00:25:14,276 Speaker 5: What really has changed is because of the ease of 430 00:25:14,316 --> 00:25:17,716 Speaker 5: gambling by having this device in your pocket that allows 431 00:25:17,716 --> 00:25:20,716 Speaker 5: you to place a bet, is that people are basically 432 00:25:20,796 --> 00:25:23,476 Speaker 5: making dumber and dumber bets. Right, They're making more and 433 00:25:23,516 --> 00:25:28,196 Speaker 5: more parlay bets. They're making more crazy odds bets. You know, 434 00:25:28,236 --> 00:25:31,236 Speaker 5: will Taylor Swift be wearing a Chiefs jersey at the game? 435 00:25:31,436 --> 00:25:35,276 Speaker 2: You know, a casino has all these games, and the 436 00:25:35,276 --> 00:25:39,596 Speaker 2: odds are of course always against you. But casinos don't 437 00:25:39,636 --> 00:25:42,596 Speaker 2: coax you into playing, say roulette, with one set of odds, 438 00:25:42,876 --> 00:25:45,316 Speaker 2: and then once you're hooked, switch out the odds to 439 00:25:45,356 --> 00:25:49,036 Speaker 2: make them far worse. But that's exactly what these sportsbooks 440 00:25:49,036 --> 00:25:53,236 Speaker 2: are doing by coaxing people into parlay bets. Here's an 441 00:25:53,236 --> 00:25:57,356 Speaker 2: example of how this works in practice. On a simple 442 00:25:57,356 --> 00:25:59,916 Speaker 2: bet on, say the Kansas City Chiefs to beat the 443 00:25:59,956 --> 00:26:04,236 Speaker 2: San Francisco forty nine ers. DraftKings average profit and casinos 444 00:26:04,236 --> 00:26:07,076 Speaker 2: they call it the wind margin is roughly five percent 445 00:26:08,476 --> 00:26:11,076 Speaker 2: on a two leg parlay bet. A bets say that 446 00:26:11,116 --> 00:26:13,956 Speaker 2: the Chiefs win and Patrick Mahomes throws for more than 447 00:26:13,996 --> 00:26:17,996 Speaker 2: three hundred yards. On that kind of parlay bet, average 448 00:26:17,996 --> 00:26:23,036 Speaker 2: profit to DraftKings rises to ten percent on three legged parlays, 449 00:26:23,836 --> 00:26:26,196 Speaker 2: where for the better to win, the Chiefs need to win, 450 00:26:26,396 --> 00:26:29,116 Speaker 2: Patrick Mahomes needs to pass for three hundred yards and 451 00:26:29,276 --> 00:26:33,316 Speaker 2: Travis Kelcey needs to score at least one touchdown. DraftKings 452 00:26:33,396 --> 00:26:37,276 Speaker 2: rakes in fifteen percent or more. There's this useful rule 453 00:26:37,316 --> 00:26:40,676 Speaker 2: of thumb. With each additional leg of a parlay, the 454 00:26:40,676 --> 00:26:44,196 Speaker 2: book is keep an extra five percent. And DraftKings and 455 00:26:44,236 --> 00:26:47,156 Speaker 2: Fan Duel have learned how to herd their customers into 456 00:26:47,236 --> 00:26:51,836 Speaker 2: longer and stupider parlays. Their TV promotions are designed with 457 00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:52,916 Speaker 2: this one goal in mind. 458 00:26:54,516 --> 00:26:57,436 Speaker 4: This is you and this is your first hunch of 459 00:26:57,476 --> 00:26:58,036 Speaker 4: the season. 460 00:26:58,156 --> 00:27:02,916 Speaker 2: It's parlay time. Promotions like that are working. They're leading 461 00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:05,636 Speaker 2: the American gambler to make different kinds of bets. 462 00:27:06,436 --> 00:27:10,596 Speaker 5: Those are really bad bets. Professional betters still make those bets, yep, 463 00:27:10,876 --> 00:27:16,716 Speaker 5: but the public does and and that changes the economics dramatically. 464 00:27:16,116 --> 00:27:18,956 Speaker 2: Because because they're on the other side of the bad bets. 465 00:27:19,356 --> 00:27:22,396 Speaker 5: Well, and it's the same the same overhead costs, right, 466 00:27:22,476 --> 00:27:24,876 Speaker 5: But if you're breaking off higher amounts of the bet, 467 00:27:25,196 --> 00:27:28,236 Speaker 5: it's all gravy. The extra gross profit is all gravy. 468 00:27:28,716 --> 00:27:30,956 Speaker 5: The bad news is, of course, is if you're the better, 469 00:27:31,596 --> 00:27:34,036 Speaker 5: if the house is taking ten percent of each bet, 470 00:27:34,956 --> 00:27:40,076 Speaker 5: your your bank role begins to dissipate dramatically faster, and 471 00:27:40,356 --> 00:27:42,996 Speaker 5: so they're going to need to find more and more, 472 00:27:43,236 --> 00:27:46,276 Speaker 5: you know, suckers if you will to keep making these bets. 473 00:27:46,436 --> 00:27:49,836 Speaker 2: So far they have. So that tells you something. It 474 00:27:49,876 --> 00:27:51,716 Speaker 2: does tell you something, and it tells you that it's 475 00:27:51,716 --> 00:27:55,036 Speaker 2: a different business from the old sports book at a casino. 476 00:27:55,476 --> 00:27:57,676 Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely a different business. 477 00:27:57,996 --> 00:28:03,636 Speaker 2: That change in behavior is everything. Fan Dow and DraftKings 478 00:28:03,836 --> 00:28:07,596 Speaker 2: have all these competitors, Caesar's and MGM and Circa and 479 00:28:07,636 --> 00:28:11,716 Speaker 2: the other Las Vegas casinos have all launched sports gambling apps, 480 00:28:12,636 --> 00:28:17,156 Speaker 2: but Vegas for some reason can't compete. Neither can ESPN 481 00:28:17,436 --> 00:28:20,236 Speaker 2: or the Fanatic Sports Apparel Company or well there's no 482 00:28:20,436 --> 00:28:24,676 Speaker 2: end to the failed competition. After Colorado legalized sports betting 483 00:28:24,756 --> 00:28:30,036 Speaker 2: back in twenty nineteen, twenty companies launched sports gambling apps. 484 00:28:30,316 --> 00:28:32,956 Speaker 2: Less than two years later, seven of those twenty apps 485 00:28:32,996 --> 00:28:36,996 Speaker 2: are gone. In the end, there's really been no serious competition. 486 00:28:37,436 --> 00:28:39,796 Speaker 2: All these other companies have been losing huge sums of 487 00:28:39,796 --> 00:28:43,076 Speaker 2: money and making zero dent in DraftKings and fan duels 488 00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:47,196 Speaker 2: market shares. FanDuel and DraftKings have remained something like eighty 489 00:28:47,236 --> 00:28:48,556 Speaker 2: percent of the entire market. 490 00:28:49,316 --> 00:28:51,996 Speaker 12: Most of the questions I had were is this going 491 00:28:51,996 --> 00:28:53,236 Speaker 12: to be an Internet marketplace? 492 00:28:53,236 --> 00:28:56,996 Speaker 2: Which is winner takes Most. That's Sean Kelly, an analyst 493 00:28:57,036 --> 00:29:00,276 Speaker 2: at Bank of America. He was covering the casino industry 494 00:29:00,636 --> 00:29:03,676 Speaker 2: when along came these sports gambling companies and he felt 495 00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:07,196 Speaker 2: a professional obligation to follow them too, thinking that they 496 00:29:07,196 --> 00:29:11,196 Speaker 2: were just like casinos and so like Jim Chaino's, like 497 00:29:11,276 --> 00:29:15,116 Speaker 2: basically every Wall Street person, he at first missed what 498 00:29:15,276 --> 00:29:16,116 Speaker 2: was really going on. 499 00:29:17,116 --> 00:29:21,356 Speaker 12: The Internet has actually led to a handful of winner 500 00:29:21,436 --> 00:29:24,636 Speaker 12: take most marketplaces, ride share, so uber lyft. If you 501 00:29:24,676 --> 00:29:29,716 Speaker 12: think about the consumer marketplace and home sharing, so Airbnb 502 00:29:30,476 --> 00:29:31,036 Speaker 12: and all. 503 00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:33,676 Speaker 2: Those businesses, I can see what the network effects are. 504 00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:36,716 Speaker 12: So The reason it was the debate in this business 505 00:29:37,276 --> 00:29:41,476 Speaker 12: was unlike those other places, those were two sided marketplaces. 506 00:29:41,716 --> 00:29:44,356 Speaker 12: If you controlled supply, and you had the most supply, 507 00:29:44,476 --> 00:29:46,636 Speaker 12: you'd get the most customers, you'd have the demand. 508 00:29:48,436 --> 00:29:51,636 Speaker 2: In mobile sports gambling, there were no obvious network effects. 509 00:29:52,356 --> 00:29:56,196 Speaker 2: FanDuel and DraftKings weren't like say, Facebook, which everyone is 510 00:29:56,236 --> 00:29:59,196 Speaker 2: on only because everyone else is on it. They weren't 511 00:29:59,236 --> 00:30:01,676 Speaker 2: even like Uber, which people use because it has so 512 00:30:01,716 --> 00:30:04,356 Speaker 2: many drivers, and which has so many drivers because so 513 00:30:04,356 --> 00:30:08,036 Speaker 2: many people use it. But these two companies were dominating 514 00:30:08,076 --> 00:30:11,196 Speaker 2: their market. It's the same way as Facebook and Uber had. 515 00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:14,236 Speaker 2: It was like they had this moat around them that 516 00:30:14,316 --> 00:30:16,396 Speaker 2: prevented anyone from invading their castles. 517 00:30:17,556 --> 00:30:19,636 Speaker 12: At the time, we couldn't identify what the moat was, 518 00:30:19,676 --> 00:30:20,996 Speaker 12: But here's what the moat was. 519 00:30:21,436 --> 00:30:24,196 Speaker 2: The answer is three billion dollars. That's what it costs 520 00:30:24,196 --> 00:30:26,396 Speaker 2: in marketing just to get people to know about you. 521 00:30:27,036 --> 00:30:30,396 Speaker 12: Actually it's two billion in marketing and one billion in technology. 522 00:30:31,476 --> 00:30:34,436 Speaker 2: Three billion dollars to create a brand. But their brand 523 00:30:34,516 --> 00:30:36,276 Speaker 2: names are just the start of the edge that these 524 00:30:36,316 --> 00:30:39,556 Speaker 2: two companies have. Their deeper edge is what they know 525 00:30:39,596 --> 00:30:43,516 Speaker 2: about the American sports gambler. Technology has allowed them to 526 00:30:43,556 --> 00:30:47,676 Speaker 2: create something very different from casinos or old fashioned sports bookies. 527 00:30:48,836 --> 00:30:51,756 Speaker 2: But what makes these two companies unbeatable is the data 528 00:30:51,756 --> 00:30:56,236 Speaker 2: they've acquired, and it's basically impossible for anyone else to acquire. 529 00:30:57,076 --> 00:31:00,796 Speaker 12: Why do these companies win? The answer is the perfect 530 00:31:01,036 --> 00:31:06,076 Speaker 12: seam for the American sports better was not you know, 531 00:31:06,236 --> 00:31:10,996 Speaker 12: commercial casino gambling. It was daily fantasy sports. You had 532 00:31:11,036 --> 00:31:15,276 Speaker 12: customers who cared so deeply about sports that not only 533 00:31:15,436 --> 00:31:18,356 Speaker 12: were they willing to gamble on real sports, they would 534 00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:20,156 Speaker 12: gamble on fantasy sports. 535 00:31:20,556 --> 00:31:20,836 Speaker 5: Right. 536 00:31:20,996 --> 00:31:23,076 Speaker 12: So if you just take that at as simple as level, 537 00:31:23,476 --> 00:31:25,716 Speaker 12: these are people that had money on deposit on the 538 00:31:25,716 --> 00:31:28,836 Speaker 12: Internet to gamble on fantasy sports. They sure as heck 539 00:31:28,876 --> 00:31:31,196 Speaker 12: couldn't wait for the real money alternative to come, and 540 00:31:31,276 --> 00:31:34,036 Speaker 12: when and when it did, it was a perfect pivot 541 00:31:34,156 --> 00:31:37,076 Speaker 12: to the exact customer set that wanted to do this. 542 00:31:37,836 --> 00:31:41,156 Speaker 2: Who still left who you think is a plausible competitor 543 00:31:41,196 --> 00:31:42,396 Speaker 2: to fandueler DraftKings. 544 00:31:42,676 --> 00:31:45,396 Speaker 12: So the truth is, yeah, the game has largely been one. 545 00:31:47,436 --> 00:31:50,276 Speaker 2: I think we can safely say that it's totally been one. 546 00:31:51,236 --> 00:31:54,796 Speaker 2: The sports gambling industrial complex will be dominated by two companies. 547 00:31:55,556 --> 00:31:58,236 Speaker 2: Anyone who challenges them will have to spend three billion 548 00:31:58,276 --> 00:32:01,156 Speaker 2: dollars to get to where they are now if they're lucky. 549 00:32:02,356 --> 00:32:05,716 Speaker 2: But by then Fandulin DraftKings will have acquired more data 550 00:32:05,756 --> 00:32:09,196 Speaker 2: on the American sports gambler and found craftier ways to 551 00:32:09,236 --> 00:32:13,156 Speaker 2: both find and manipulate him. The capital markets will see 552 00:32:13,156 --> 00:32:15,676 Speaker 2: that any attempt to challenge their dominance is a waste 553 00:32:15,716 --> 00:32:18,836 Speaker 2: of money. Anyone willing to invest three billion in a 554 00:32:18,876 --> 00:32:21,516 Speaker 2: sports gambling app would be nuts to invest in any 555 00:32:21,516 --> 00:32:23,396 Speaker 2: place with fanduela DraftKings. 556 00:32:23,836 --> 00:32:28,436 Speaker 13: What they did was they created a business model that 557 00:32:28,676 --> 00:32:31,796 Speaker 13: is a loss leader for X number of years to 558 00:32:31,956 --> 00:32:34,156 Speaker 13: gain market share and dominance. 559 00:32:35,436 --> 00:32:39,916 Speaker 2: That's Jim Allen, CEO of Seminole Gaming. The Seminoles acquired 560 00:32:39,916 --> 00:32:42,236 Speaker 2: the hard Rock brand back in two thousand and seven 561 00:32:42,956 --> 00:32:45,956 Speaker 2: and used it to name their gambling app. It's the 562 00:32:45,956 --> 00:32:49,036 Speaker 2: biggest and the baddest tribal gaming company going after FanDuel 563 00:32:49,036 --> 00:32:52,076 Speaker 2: and DraftKings where they live online. 564 00:32:52,876 --> 00:32:56,236 Speaker 13: Then that creates profitability, you know, in a five to 565 00:32:56,356 --> 00:32:59,956 Speaker 13: seven ten year window, versus trying to be profitable the 566 00:33:00,036 --> 00:33:04,436 Speaker 13: first year. That was their business model, and frankly Wall 567 00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:05,916 Speaker 13: Street supported them in that. 568 00:33:06,916 --> 00:33:09,636 Speaker 2: Hard Rock has managed to get sports, gambling life licenses 569 00:33:09,676 --> 00:33:12,356 Speaker 2: in eight states and wants to be a threat to 570 00:33:12,356 --> 00:33:14,556 Speaker 2: the duopoly very humbly. 571 00:33:14,676 --> 00:33:17,076 Speaker 13: Our app is the number one app in the United States. 572 00:33:17,516 --> 00:33:20,476 Speaker 13: DraftKings is second, not just here in Florida, but in 573 00:33:20,516 --> 00:33:23,876 Speaker 13: the United States. It's because the technology that we have 574 00:33:25,276 --> 00:33:27,396 Speaker 13: is world class. 575 00:33:27,916 --> 00:33:29,916 Speaker 2: You know, maybe, but if you want to know what 576 00:33:29,996 --> 00:33:33,036 Speaker 2: I think, I think the Indian casinos are in basically 577 00:33:33,116 --> 00:33:36,636 Speaker 2: the same position as the Vegas casinos. They're getting to 578 00:33:36,676 --> 00:33:40,236 Speaker 2: the sports better too late, with the wrong approach, and 579 00:33:40,236 --> 00:33:42,156 Speaker 2: they're hunting with inferior weapons. 580 00:33:44,796 --> 00:33:47,116 Speaker 4: So the morning of January tewond, I'm at my home 581 00:33:47,156 --> 00:33:49,036 Speaker 4: in Florida, and I get a text from a high 582 00:33:49,076 --> 00:33:50,156 Speaker 4: school friend of mine, Brian. 583 00:33:50,956 --> 00:33:54,116 Speaker 2: That's Danny Moses, a character in The Big Short, a 584 00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:57,556 Speaker 2: book I wrote about the financial crisis. In the movie version, 585 00:33:57,636 --> 00:34:00,356 Speaker 2: Danny was a short seller who had one swollen testicle, 586 00:34:00,836 --> 00:34:04,236 Speaker 2: which on Wall Street kind of counts as an advantage. Anyway, 587 00:34:04,276 --> 00:34:05,596 Speaker 2: back to Danny and his friend. 588 00:34:05,796 --> 00:34:07,796 Speaker 4: Eight fifteen in the morning. He's on a flight from 589 00:34:07,836 --> 00:34:11,076 Speaker 4: Europe and he lives in Florida, and he's on the 590 00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:13,996 Speaker 4: hard rock gap. But he can't gamble, because you can't 591 00:34:13,996 --> 00:34:15,716 Speaker 4: you have to be in the state right to do it. 592 00:34:15,756 --> 00:34:17,316 Speaker 4: And he says, Danny, you need to go check out 593 00:34:17,316 --> 00:34:21,476 Speaker 4: something on the hard betting app called Specials under the NFL, 594 00:34:22,196 --> 00:34:23,796 Speaker 4: And I go, what are you seeing? He goes, I'm 595 00:34:23,796 --> 00:34:27,436 Speaker 4: seeing a crazy line that the Baltimore Ravens to beat 596 00:34:27,436 --> 00:34:30,556 Speaker 4: the Detroit Lions in the Super Bowl is five hundred 597 00:34:30,596 --> 00:34:32,396 Speaker 4: to one. I said, well, it can't be. Let me 598 00:34:32,436 --> 00:34:35,436 Speaker 4: go look. So literally he's in the air, I'm looking 599 00:34:35,436 --> 00:34:37,996 Speaker 4: around and I find it and. 600 00:34:37,916 --> 00:34:41,316 Speaker 2: It's obviously a mistake. The playoffs are set, Detroit and 601 00:34:41,396 --> 00:34:44,516 Speaker 2: Baltimore are both in them. Baltimore is better than Detroit 602 00:34:44,556 --> 00:34:45,996 Speaker 2: and a favorite to make the Super. 603 00:34:45,796 --> 00:34:49,316 Speaker 4: Bowl, so both teams were locked in. And so I 604 00:34:49,316 --> 00:34:51,236 Speaker 4: look at it, and I look at the reverse of it, 605 00:34:51,316 --> 00:34:54,556 Speaker 4: which is Detroit to beat Baltimore, and that's sixty to one. 606 00:34:54,756 --> 00:34:57,956 Speaker 4: So you know inherently that Baltimore to beat Detroit has 607 00:34:57,996 --> 00:35:01,276 Speaker 4: to be less than sixty to one. So I'm texting 608 00:35:01,276 --> 00:35:02,676 Speaker 4: with him and I said, all right, I'm going to 609 00:35:02,716 --> 00:35:04,636 Speaker 4: put it down. I'll put down as much as I can. Well, 610 00:35:04,636 --> 00:35:08,436 Speaker 4: the max bet being offered was fifty dollars, and I 611 00:35:08,556 --> 00:35:12,356 Speaker 4: found out that day the DraftKings and FanDuel had offered 612 00:35:12,396 --> 00:35:14,956 Speaker 4: the same bet. Roughly the odds have called it thirty 613 00:35:14,956 --> 00:35:17,676 Speaker 4: to forty to one, so we knew we had found something. 614 00:35:18,796 --> 00:35:21,556 Speaker 2: Of course, it's not likely that both Detroit and Baltimore 615 00:35:21,636 --> 00:35:24,676 Speaker 2: will make the Super Bowl, but the true odds are 616 00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:27,876 Speaker 2: nothing like five hundred to one. The Seminoles have clearly 617 00:35:27,916 --> 00:35:28,476 Speaker 2: screwed up. 618 00:35:29,516 --> 00:35:31,076 Speaker 4: Call my friends in New Jersey. I'm like, you better 619 00:35:31,156 --> 00:35:33,316 Speaker 4: jump on this quickly, I said, because it's probably going 620 00:35:33,356 --> 00:35:35,276 Speaker 4: to go away. So they all put it down. Those 621 00:35:35,316 --> 00:35:37,836 Speaker 4: like six or seven guys that made the bet. 622 00:35:38,516 --> 00:35:41,476 Speaker 2: Some huge number of gamblers have probably grabbed the five 623 00:35:41,556 --> 00:35:45,756 Speaker 2: hundred to one odds. Then Danny uses Twitter to tell 624 00:35:45,756 --> 00:35:49,756 Speaker 2: the Seminoles how badly screwed they are. He's actually measured 625 00:35:49,796 --> 00:35:54,636 Speaker 2: it using a company called wager Wire. Wager Wire runs 626 00:35:54,676 --> 00:35:58,396 Speaker 2: an entire market for secondhand sports bets. Yes, you can 627 00:35:58,436 --> 00:36:00,956 Speaker 2: now buy and sell your sports bets with other gamblers, 628 00:36:02,036 --> 00:36:04,396 Speaker 2: so wager Wire can tell you at any given moment 629 00:36:04,636 --> 00:36:08,236 Speaker 2: what your bet is worth. And wager Wire tells Danny 630 00:36:08,236 --> 00:36:10,596 Speaker 2: that he could sell his fifthifty dollar bet for seven 631 00:36:10,676 --> 00:36:11,916 Speaker 2: hundred dollars. 632 00:36:12,676 --> 00:36:16,596 Speaker 4: So I tweet out too hard rock bet by the way, 633 00:36:16,596 --> 00:36:18,756 Speaker 4: which is probably run by a twenty something year old 634 00:36:19,036 --> 00:36:22,276 Speaker 4: who just understands social media but not gambling, basically saying 635 00:36:22,516 --> 00:36:24,836 Speaker 4: thanks so much for this opportunity. 636 00:36:25,076 --> 00:36:29,356 Speaker 2: Still, the Seminoles don't react. They must have algorithms. Everyone does, 637 00:36:29,876 --> 00:36:32,916 Speaker 2: but the Seminoles algoes are obviously not up to speed. 638 00:36:33,716 --> 00:36:35,876 Speaker 2: Not until Danny takes a photo of the bet they're 639 00:36:35,916 --> 00:36:39,396 Speaker 2: offering and tweets it to hard Rock does the tribe react. 640 00:36:40,156 --> 00:36:44,116 Speaker 4: Fast forward a couple days. I open my hard Rock app. 641 00:36:44,116 --> 00:36:47,116 Speaker 4: I'm down here in Florida and the BET's gone. Can't 642 00:36:47,116 --> 00:36:50,116 Speaker 4: find it, And I searched back through and I find it. 643 00:36:50,116 --> 00:36:53,556 Speaker 4: Says void basically voided the fifty dollars bet and credited 644 00:36:53,556 --> 00:36:56,156 Speaker 4: my account back for fifty dollars. They canceled, didn't reach 645 00:36:56,156 --> 00:36:59,036 Speaker 4: out to me, didn't call me. They you know, they 646 00:36:59,036 --> 00:37:01,116 Speaker 4: didn't honor it. So I call my friends in New 647 00:37:01,196 --> 00:37:05,076 Speaker 4: Jersey and I said, my BET's void, how about yours? Nope, 648 00:37:05,116 --> 00:37:08,236 Speaker 4: not void, And they're The reason is because in New Jersey. 649 00:37:08,396 --> 00:37:11,276 Speaker 4: New Jersey Gaming Enforcement Division doesn't mess around. 650 00:37:12,436 --> 00:37:15,396 Speaker 2: The Seminole tribe is apparently willing to treat their customers 651 00:37:15,436 --> 00:37:18,116 Speaker 2: in Florida one way and their customers in New Jersey 652 00:37:18,116 --> 00:37:21,396 Speaker 2: another that's what it begins to dawn on. Danny Moses 653 00:37:21,396 --> 00:37:24,676 Speaker 2: that he shouldn't be placing sports bets in Florida, that 654 00:37:24,756 --> 00:37:26,956 Speaker 2: he'd be better off using friends to place bets with 655 00:37:26,996 --> 00:37:31,396 Speaker 2: fandueland DraftKings in New Jersey. But then the plot thickens. 656 00:37:32,236 --> 00:37:36,276 Speaker 2: The Baltimore Ravens and Detroit Lions keep winning. Both get 657 00:37:36,276 --> 00:37:39,876 Speaker 2: to their conference championships. The bet that wager Wire said 658 00:37:39,916 --> 00:37:42,956 Speaker 2: was worth seven hundred dollars is now worth two thousand, 659 00:37:43,196 --> 00:37:47,036 Speaker 2: seven hundred and eighty three dollars, and the seminoles are 660 00:37:47,036 --> 00:37:51,876 Speaker 2: just pretending that it doesn't exist. Danny goes nuclear, or 661 00:37:51,956 --> 00:37:53,476 Speaker 2: rather he goes onto television. 662 00:37:54,276 --> 00:37:56,756 Speaker 6: More and more gamblers are beginning to share stories of 663 00:37:56,916 --> 00:38:00,996 Speaker 6: how bets got voided by their sports books, alike from 664 00:38:01,076 --> 00:38:03,596 Speaker 6: Danny Moses, an investor who was profiled. 665 00:38:03,116 --> 00:38:05,436 Speaker 4: In I went on CNBC with an interview with contested 666 00:38:05,516 --> 00:38:08,156 Speaker 4: Brewer in the middle of all this, and har Rock 667 00:38:08,236 --> 00:38:10,476 Speaker 4: was claiming that I did reach out to customer service, 668 00:38:10,756 --> 00:38:12,396 Speaker 4: but I did gets a one and hundred number, and 669 00:38:12,436 --> 00:38:14,956 Speaker 4: it just goes into the abyss. I tweeted at hard 670 00:38:15,036 --> 00:38:16,836 Speaker 4: Rock Help. I tweeted at hard Rock Bet. I could 671 00:38:16,836 --> 00:38:18,076 Speaker 4: never get a response. 672 00:38:18,876 --> 00:38:21,516 Speaker 2: At the heart of the new sports gambling industrial complex 673 00:38:21,876 --> 00:38:25,596 Speaker 2: is a predatory market. But the Seminoles don't seem cut 674 00:38:25,596 --> 00:38:28,636 Speaker 2: out to be apex predators. The trick of the role 675 00:38:28,956 --> 00:38:31,876 Speaker 2: is to coax Americans and too voluntarily making dumber and 676 00:38:31,956 --> 00:38:34,556 Speaker 2: dumber bets. But you need to do it in ways 677 00:38:34,596 --> 00:38:35,996 Speaker 2: that people don't really notice. 678 00:38:36,996 --> 00:38:38,636 Speaker 4: Even if I find something that I think is going 679 00:38:38,716 --> 00:38:40,516 Speaker 4: to be great, I don't know if I'm going to 680 00:38:40,556 --> 00:38:42,396 Speaker 4: get paid out on it, And to be honest, that's 681 00:38:42,396 --> 00:38:43,516 Speaker 4: a confidence issue for me. 682 00:38:45,996 --> 00:38:48,916 Speaker 2: Obviously this is just one story, but what I hear 683 00:38:48,956 --> 00:38:52,076 Speaker 2: in it is even the most powerful Indian tribe isn't 684 00:38:52,156 --> 00:38:56,596 Speaker 2: close to ready to compete with FanDuel and DraftKings. If 685 00:38:56,676 --> 00:39:00,356 Speaker 2: Danny could just short the Seminole tribe, he would, And 686 00:39:00,436 --> 00:39:04,396 Speaker 2: I think maybe they sense their bigger problem because just recently, 687 00:39:04,596 --> 00:39:06,916 Speaker 2: Seminole Gaming announced that they'd be open to forming a 688 00:39:06,956 --> 00:39:11,196 Speaker 2: partnership with either FanDuel or Draft Things. And why would 689 00:39:11,196 --> 00:39:13,756 Speaker 2: they do that if they thought they could compete with them. 690 00:39:14,596 --> 00:39:18,516 Speaker 2: That's why these two companies make such great villains. Yes 691 00:39:19,076 --> 00:39:23,036 Speaker 2: they're dishonest with the public when they create their ballot propositions. 692 00:39:23,116 --> 00:39:26,556 Speaker 2: Yes they're targeting vulnerable people who have no real idea 693 00:39:26,556 --> 00:39:32,236 Speaker 2: what they're doing. Yes, they're effectively mining addiction, but none 694 00:39:32,236 --> 00:39:35,676 Speaker 2: of that is why they make for great villains. They 695 00:39:35,676 --> 00:39:39,196 Speaker 2: make for great villains because they're so incredibly good at 696 00:39:39,196 --> 00:39:43,076 Speaker 2: what they do. Preachers aren't going to stop them. Native 697 00:39:43,116 --> 00:39:46,356 Speaker 2: Americans aren't going to stop them. Lord knows, short sellers 698 00:39:46,356 --> 00:39:49,596 Speaker 2: aren't going to stop them. The market power of these 699 00:39:49,636 --> 00:39:53,316 Speaker 2: two companies will enable them to capture their regulators, seduce 700 00:39:53,356 --> 00:39:58,756 Speaker 2: the media, and in general evade real scrutiny. History might 701 00:39:58,796 --> 00:40:02,196 Speaker 2: not repeat itself here, but I'm betting it at least rhymes. 702 00:40:04,676 --> 00:40:12,396 Speaker 14: Thank God, like a bigger Ranta. 703 00:40:13,476 --> 00:40:16,836 Speaker 2: This situation is obviously not exactly the same as that one. 704 00:40:17,836 --> 00:40:21,556 Speaker 2: This sports gambling industrial complex will carve its own path 705 00:40:21,636 --> 00:40:25,916 Speaker 2: through our society. The damage is already inflicting on athletes, 706 00:40:26,036 --> 00:40:29,036 Speaker 2: on college sports, on how fans feel about the whole thing. 707 00:40:29,556 --> 00:40:33,396 Speaker 2: That's where we're going next. But I'm not quite ready 708 00:40:33,436 --> 00:40:36,596 Speaker 2: to leave Vegas yet, because I met a lot of 709 00:40:36,636 --> 00:40:38,756 Speaker 2: interesting people there and I want you to hear more 710 00:40:38,796 --> 00:40:42,316 Speaker 2: from the characters who populated this one time sports gambling empire. 711 00:40:43,236 --> 00:40:45,116 Speaker 2: So in the coming weeks, you're going to hear from 712 00:40:45,116 --> 00:40:47,676 Speaker 2: gambling legend Billy Walters. 713 00:40:48,476 --> 00:40:51,756 Speaker 15: Because I got access to more money, I got invited 714 00:40:51,796 --> 00:40:55,716 Speaker 15: to go to Las Vegas. And you know, clearly that 715 00:40:55,916 --> 00:40:59,316 Speaker 15: was an eye opener. I mean, it's like, you know, 716 00:40:59,716 --> 00:41:01,036 Speaker 15: a wild dog going to meet us. 717 00:41:01,796 --> 00:41:04,676 Speaker 2: You're also going to hear from some old school Vegas bookies. 718 00:41:05,476 --> 00:41:09,756 Speaker 2: How's the legalization around the country changed your business? 719 00:41:09,836 --> 00:41:12,276 Speaker 10: A lot of these guys came in from Europe. They 720 00:41:12,276 --> 00:41:15,516 Speaker 10: were very corporate, British corporate. This is the legal this 721 00:41:15,596 --> 00:41:17,756 Speaker 10: is the marketing, this is the HR this is blah 722 00:41:17,796 --> 00:41:20,836 Speaker 10: blah blah. Why don't we have to adapt ourselves to 723 00:41:20,876 --> 00:41:22,756 Speaker 10: these Brits? You know, we just showed up on our 724 00:41:22,796 --> 00:41:24,636 Speaker 10: doorstep a couple of years ago. They had got these 725 00:41:24,676 --> 00:41:27,276 Speaker 10: English accents and every ratings are so brilliant. 726 00:41:36,516 --> 00:41:38,876 Speaker 2: Against the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael 727 00:41:38,916 --> 00:41:41,916 Speaker 2: Lewis and produced by Lydia Gene Coott, Catherine Gerdeau and 728 00:41:41,996 --> 00:41:46,036 Speaker 2: Ariela Markowitz. Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is 729 00:41:46,116 --> 00:41:49,916 Speaker 2: Jake Gorsky. Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and 730 00:41:49,996 --> 00:41:53,796 Speaker 2: John Evans of stell Wagon Cinfinett. Our fact checker is 731 00:41:53,876 --> 00:41:56,916 Speaker 2: Lauren ves Polli. Special thanks to a few more folks 732 00:41:56,916 --> 00:42:00,756 Speaker 2: who made this season Against the Rules possible. Jacob Weisberg, 733 00:42:00,876 --> 00:42:05,996 Speaker 2: Greta Cone, Sarah Nix, Christina Sullivan, Kerry Brody, Eric Sandler, 734 00:42:06,556 --> 00:42:11,876 Speaker 2: Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, j Flanagan, Owen Miller, Sarah Bruguier, 735 00:42:12,356 --> 00:42:15,996 Speaker 2: Jacob Goldstein, and Sophie Crane. Against the Rules is a 736 00:42:15,996 --> 00:42:20,476 Speaker 2: production of Pushkin Industries. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen 737 00:42:20,556 --> 00:42:24,676 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen 738 00:42:24,716 --> 00:42:27,676 Speaker 2: to podcasts, and if you'd like to listen to ad 739 00:42:27,756 --> 00:42:31,476 Speaker 2: free and learn about other exclusive offerings, don't forget to 740 00:42:31,476 --> 00:42:35,556 Speaker 2: sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin dot fm, 741 00:42:35,596 --> 00:42:45,076 Speaker 2: slash plus or on our Apple show page. 742 00:42:49,796 --> 00:42:50,396 Speaker 7: How does it feeled? 743 00:42:50,396 --> 00:42:52,676 Speaker 2: I have one a parlay because we don't have a 744 00:42:52,716 --> 00:42:57,716 Speaker 2: trusting relationship. I'm counting it. Yeah, wait, that's actually dollars 745 00:42:57,756 --> 00:43:01,356 Speaker 2: and ninety five cents. Oh you keep the change? 746 00:43:01,676 --> 00:43:03,556 Speaker 11: Well you also you as there. 747 00:43:03,676 --> 00:43:04,916 Speaker 4: The brains are in the operation. 748 00:43:05,156 --> 00:43:07,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, the brains are brain. There were no brains a 749 00:43:07,356 --> 00:43:10,276 Speaker 2: found operation. That's the amazing thing. And the really amazing 750 00:43:10,316 --> 00:43:12,956 Speaker 2: thing is that the first thing you think when you 751 00:43:13,036 --> 00:43:16,876 Speaker 2: saw it worked out is I know something when all 752 00:43:16,916 --> 00:43:20,196 Speaker 2: I did was purely yess. I think the trick to 753 00:43:20,276 --> 00:43:22,396 Speaker 2: this game is, if that happens, you leave