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Speaker 1: Trust me. Do you trust her?

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Speaker 2: Right ever lead you astray?

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Speaker 1: Trust? This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't hello.

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Speaker 3: We record these episodes in advance, so I'm just going

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Speaker 3: to add a quick insert here because if you're listening

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Speaker 3: in America, the mood in our nation is heavy this week,

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Speaker 3: and it doesn't feel right to not address it. Alex Preddie,

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Speaker 3: an American citizen and an ICU nurse who was holding

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Speaker 3: his phone to film and not brandishing the gun he

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Speaker 3: was legally carrying on him, was killed by immigration officers

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Speaker 3: in Minneapolis while on the ground, just a couple of

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Speaker 3: weeks after Renee Good was killed by ice when driving away.

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Speaker 3: Her killer can be heard on video calling her a

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Speaker 3: fucking bitch after he shot her to death. Both of

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Speaker 3: these people were there to observe, as is their legal right,

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Speaker 3: to protect their communities from the escalating violence of federal

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Speaker 3: agents in our country, who Trump claims are there to

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Speaker 3: protect Americans who feels safer. The Trump administrations rush to

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Speaker 3: characterize the victims of these extra judicial killings as deserving terrorists,

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Speaker 3: despite video evidence clearly showing that they pose no threat.

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Speaker 3: Should alum us all, don't listen to your eyes and ears.

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Speaker 3: Listen to what I say, not what you see. For

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Speaker 3: those who haven't been following immigration policy in the US

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Speaker 3: and maybe don't understand what all the fuss is about.

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Speaker 3: I know a lot of people think that people on

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Speaker 3: the letter just being hysterical, which of course sometimes we are.

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Speaker 3: In May of last year, Steven Miller, White House senior

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Speaker 3: Advisor and DHS Secretary Christino, both of whom are openly

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Speaker 3: anti immigrant. Stephen Miller has made an entire career of

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Speaker 3: fear mongering about how immigrants are going to destroy white culture.

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Speaker 3: They ordered ICE to stop focusing on people with criminal

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Speaker 3: records and just try to reach a goal of three

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Speaker 3: thousand arrests per day so they could rest as many

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Speaker 3: people as possible. There's been a nearly six hundred percent

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Speaker 3: increase in average daily arrests since Trump's twenty twenty five inauguration,

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Speaker 3: so that means people with no criminal record are being

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Speaker 3: stopped in public spaces, more people are being racially profiled,

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Speaker 3: and now, even though we're spending billions of dollars on this,

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Speaker 3: nearly seventy five percent of people detained by ICE have

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Speaker 3: no criminal cons I've said this before, I will say

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Speaker 3: it again. Undocumented immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate

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Speaker 3: than people who were born in America. They also pay

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Speaker 3: taxes and di services they don't get access to. So

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Speaker 3: what is it really about in a country that purports

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Speaker 3: to be free when an armed force of federal officers

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Speaker 3: is being instructed to not only meet a quota of

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Speaker 3: arrests rooted in nothing but ideology, and not only being

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Speaker 3: instructed to deport people who opposed Trump's policies, as we

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Speaker 3: saw with pro Palestine protesters, but also they are now

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Speaker 3: using force against protesters who are simply legally observing, and

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Speaker 3: that force is lethal. We should all be alarmed because

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Speaker 3: that is not what free countries do. That is what

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Speaker 3: authoritarian countries do. As always, I encourage everybody to call

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Speaker 3: your representatives and tell them to do something and not

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Speaker 3: just make an angry tweet. All right, That's the end

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Speaker 3: of my carry on with colts. Welcome to Trust Me,

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Speaker 3: the podcast about cults and extreme belief and manipulation from.

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Speaker 4: Two cult kids in fact experience Instead. I'm Lowl Blanc

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Speaker 4: and I'm Megan Elizabeth. This week is Part two with

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Speaker 4: Jonathan Hirsch, podcaster, producer, and author who grew up in

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Speaker 4: the cult of New Age guru Franklin Jones, commonly known

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Speaker 4: as Addie daw. Last week we learned about the leader

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Speaker 4: and how Jonathan's parents joined the group, and this week

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Speaker 4: he's going to tell us about the group's theatrical weekly meditations,

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Speaker 4: what it was like getting blessed by Franklin Jones, and

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Speaker 4: how different members saw some of the same things that

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Speaker 4: had happened completely differently depending on whether they still believed

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Speaker 4: in him later or not.

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Speaker 2: It's so interesting.

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Speaker 4: We'll talk about the lawsuits and allegations against John's how

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Speaker 4: the cult panic of the time impacted the way his

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Speaker 4: followers saw it, how Jonathan left himself, and the importance

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Speaker 4: of being able to admit when you're wrong. Our favorite,

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Speaker 4: our favorite thing that's so easy and fun to do.

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Speaker 2: It's so fun. I love it.

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Speaker 3: Same before we jump in with our fabulous guest, Jonathan Megan,

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Speaker 3: kindly tell me your cultiest thing.

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Speaker 4: This week, a new docuseries was released on HBO. It's

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Speaker 4: called Andrea Yates The Cult Behind the Killer. A lot

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Speaker 4: of people will probably remember Andrea Yates from the early

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Speaker 4: two thousands. She killed five of her children and she

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Speaker 4: was on the cover of every magazine, every newspaper, a

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Speaker 4: very salacious story, but we never really got a clear

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Speaker 4: behind the scene picture of what was actually going on

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Speaker 4: with Andrea and our second interview ever on this podcast,

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Speaker 4: the Trust Me Podcast, was with Moses Storm, who was

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Speaker 4: in this documentary. He was in this cult and I

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Speaker 4: would love for people to go listen to the episode.

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Speaker 4: I myself have not watched this docuseries yet on HBO.

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Speaker 2: It's very heavy.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to I'm planning on it, but it's something

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Speaker 4: you gotta be really ready for. It's the worst case

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Speaker 4: scenario of what can happen in these dynamics that we

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Speaker 4: talk about all the time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I really have to limit my my doc intake

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Speaker 3: when it comes to topics like this because it's it

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Speaker 3: is just really, really tough to watch. But Moses does

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Speaker 3: a really amazing job in our interview with him of

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Speaker 3: finding that balance between like talking about what happened, and

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Speaker 3: also he's a comedian and he's like so fucking funny,

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Speaker 3: so he of course peppers it with with his unique

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Speaker 3: blend of humor.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he has He has an HBO comedy special called

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Speaker 4: Trash White that's one of the funniest things I've ever

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Speaker 4: seen in my life. Only he could hold this story

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Speaker 4: with the grace that makes it one of my favorite

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Speaker 4: episodes we've ever done, while also being one of the

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Speaker 4: scariest totally topics we've ever covered. So I will be

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Speaker 4: watching the documentary this week are the docuseries what have you?

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Speaker 4: But you know, I'm gonna make sure that I, like,

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Speaker 4: I have a copy of Friends the next day or

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Speaker 4: something planned, because it's just.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's your cultiest thing.

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Speaker 3: I saw a commercial for a company which I will

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Speaker 3: not name, but a company that is a network of

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Speaker 3: psychics okay, And the language that they used was astonishing

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Speaker 3: to me because it literally is like spelling out very

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Speaker 3: explicitly what we say so often, you know, is one

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Speaker 3: of the strong motivations for joining occult, which is the

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Speaker 3: need for certainty. And the line is literally, thankfully, with

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Speaker 3: the help of our insightful guidance, you can clear away

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Speaker 3: the doubt and experience the joy of certainty.

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Speaker 2: They're not even hiding that what.

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Speaker 3: They're selling is this thing that is truly impossible to provide.

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Speaker 2: I just was like, this is crazy.

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Speaker 3: But it's also such a smart marketing tactic because there

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Speaker 3: is so much happening in the world right now. There's

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Speaker 3: so much uncertainty, so much turbulence and turmoil, and we're

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Speaker 3: all freaking out. And you know, I think it's something

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Speaker 3: we're all craving so much. And it's like this company

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Speaker 3: is like, just talk to one of our psychics specialists

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Speaker 3: and we'll give you everything you need. And I'm like,

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Speaker 3: this is such bullshit.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I mean, you can know it's bullshit and

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Speaker 4: still do it. I have a friend who has become

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Speaker 4: addicted to TikTok fortune or card readers, and she's like,

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Speaker 4: I know it's stupid. I want to stop, but it's

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Speaker 4: almost become like a tic.

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Speaker 2: Oh interesting.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we've talked about having Bob Niguard on again soon.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to text him.

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Speaker 3: For those who have not heard the Bob Niguard episode,

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Speaker 3: he is like a psychic buster. He is like a

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Speaker 3: private investigator who finds self proclaimed psychics who are basically

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Speaker 3: just taking people's entire life savings and dangling this like, oh,

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Speaker 3: but I need a little more money if you want

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Speaker 3: this answer.

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Speaker 2: We need a little more money if you want you know,

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Speaker 2: and it's a crime.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but he like gathers everything and then gets them

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Speaker 3: busted and it's so cool, and you know, whatever y'all believe.

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Speaker 2: I think we.

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Speaker 4: Can all agree that taking people's life savings is wrong, yes,

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Speaker 4: and taking advantage of people in vulnerable moments in their

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Speaker 4: lives is wrong.

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Speaker 2: Agree.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that is what this network is not even

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Speaker 3: hiding that they're trying to do.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, well give me the number. So anyway,

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Speaker 4: that's that. Well, shall we talk to Jonathan?

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Speaker 2: We shall?

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Speaker 3: I did want to ask you about that conflict that

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Speaker 3: you must have felt.

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Speaker 2: So you're a kid, do you believe in it?

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Speaker 3: First of all, before this moment with your father where

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Speaker 3: he's like, should I get off the pot or whatever?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean no, I think I wasn't being necessarily

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Speaker 1: asked to believe it. But it was like in the periphery,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think we would go to the Sunday

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Speaker 1: events or whatever they called them, Guruvara, which was like

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Speaker 1: grew day day, Yeah, Sunday, And on the day when everybody,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the wider Christian world is resting, we

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Speaker 1: are worshiping the Guru. He's probably resting somewhere. He is

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Speaker 1: technically resting now, yes, yeah, yeah, we're not, We're not,

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Speaker 1: We're never resting. But I didn't wholeheartedly believe it, nor

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Speaker 1: was there sort of like an imposition on me to

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Speaker 1: believe it. But yes, after a while I wanted to

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Speaker 1: believe it. And I think one of the things that

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Speaker 1: I've talked a lot about and that I struggled with

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Speaker 1: as a teenager was reconciling my desire to believe it

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Speaker 1: the experiences that you know, manipulated or not, which you know,

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Speaker 1: when you went to these public sittings, these meditations with Jones,

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Speaker 1: they were highly orchestrated. They were very theatrical the way

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Speaker 1: they were put together, with the music and the lights,

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Speaker 1: and you had to wait in line, you know, to

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Speaker 1: go and give him a flower and put it at

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Speaker 1: his feet, and then he looked at you with those eyes.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, And that.

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Speaker 1: Was supposed to be the blessing. So that whole experience

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Speaker 1: you can perceive as something different than what it is.

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Speaker 1: And it was very difficult for me, even as a

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Speaker 1: young adult to write about that, and it confessed that

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Speaker 1: and I talk about that in the series, just how

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Speaker 1: I couldn't quite make sense of what had happened that day.

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Speaker 1: The first time I sat in one of these things

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Speaker 1: because it was Yeah, it was very orchestrated. As the

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Speaker 1: best way I can I can discribe what did that

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Speaker 1: feel like for you? It felt like you have so

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Speaker 1: much anticipation about this moment. Your parents are telling you

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Speaker 1: he's this powerful person. You're hearing people scream and shout

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Speaker 1: his name and they're like chanting. All these chants are

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Speaker 1: basically like South Indian traditional chants that are like translated

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Speaker 1: into Jones speaks, so like his name isn't it instead

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Speaker 1: of Shiva or Vishnu? And you spend hours, at least

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Speaker 1: the first time I spent hours in this environment where

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Speaker 1: you're like changing Its good.

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Speaker 2: I mean that sounds like a rave or something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, without the drugs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like in a new new reality.

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Speaker 3: Of course, that's going to create it's a heightened sensory experience,

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Speaker 3: and it's prolonged, and it's among other people, like regardless

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Speaker 3: of who's doing it or what the context is, like,

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Speaker 3: that's gonna that's going to be very likely to create

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Speaker 3: a peak experience.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, and you're sort of building up to it. I'm

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Speaker 1: building my whole life up into this room. And it's loud,

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Speaker 1: it's cold, outside. We're outside, we're literally at this massive

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Speaker 1: gate in front of his house, and then you kind

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Speaker 1: of go in one by one and everybody goes in

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Speaker 1: and you finally get to the front of the line.

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Speaker 1: It's like that you know, new restaurant that you want

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Speaker 1: to try, and you're just like, yeah, literally you open

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Speaker 1: the door and they're supposedly Infinity right right, right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I gotta try that. So so you know, you get

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Speaker 1: in the room and there's also I remember the whoosh

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Speaker 1: of like warm air, like I had just been in

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Speaker 1: the cold for hours anticipating this moment, and you're in

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Speaker 1: this like little entryway. He's an excellent producer. That is

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Speaker 1: a very good way of putting it. Like the show

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Speaker 1: is for you for approximately three to five seconds, but

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Speaker 1: you will wait hours for it.

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Speaker 3: Whoa.

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Speaker 1: And so you get there, you get to the front

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Speaker 1: and he's on this raised dais hence the cardboard cutout

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Speaker 1: of him sitting. He's like sitting on this massive chair.

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Speaker 1: You're like, I've seen that before. Yeah, got it. That

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Speaker 1: explains a lot all the awkward dinner parties at my house. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we actually never had dinner parties at our house. But

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Speaker 1: it's funny to think of the idea of everybody showing

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Speaker 1: up and they're just being there Frank, yeah, in the corner.

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Speaker 4: So you were just like sitting there with this three

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Speaker 4: to five seconds beyond the vibe.

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Speaker 1: You have a flower and you put it at his

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Speaker 1: feet and you bow and then you look up and

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Speaker 1: he looks you in the eyes and that's it. Boom,

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Speaker 1: that's the moment you've been waiting for.

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Speaker 4: And he doesn't say anything, doesn't say so sweet, you're

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Speaker 4: looking at us in the eyes, and it's.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, sorry, I should know better as a producer,

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Speaker 1: explain what I'm doing.

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Speaker 3: And out of context, that might not have been anything.

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Speaker 3: But you've been this whole thing has been built up

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Speaker 3: for you your entire life. An eye contact always feels

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Speaker 3: a little bit intimate, direct eye contact right, like very uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes as they all looking with each other's eyes.

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Speaker 1: I know, now I can't start.

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Speaker 4: That brings me to something that happened earlier, and we

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Speaker 4: can just touch on it quickly. But there was, you know,

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Speaker 4: a sex party going on and somebody got.

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Speaker 2: Burned with a cigarette.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so there's two different complete stories about this.

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Speaker 2: One is like normal and one is heightened.

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Speaker 4: Yes, So basically, a woman gets burned with a cigarette

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Speaker 4: during an orgy. Yes, some people believe that they saw

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Speaker 4: him touch her and like fire exploded and she became

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Speaker 4: one with him for a second.

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Speaker 2: And was healed. There was something something healed, And.

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Speaker 4: Then other people were like, he burned her with a cigarette.

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Speaker 4: And it's just so interesting how when you are in

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Speaker 4: these heightened states, somebody can be like he sat there

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Speaker 4: and looked at you for two seconds, and you can

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Speaker 4: be experiencing somebody touching you with fire and being healed.

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Speaker 4: It's like all narrative somehow.

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Speaker 1: It is, and it just the poetry that imbued Jones's philosophy,

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Speaker 1: and if it hit right for you, his followers, it's

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Speaker 1: indistinguishable from your own sort of personal private machinations about

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Speaker 1: the variability of the of the experience itself. So if

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Speaker 1: you want to believe it, in other words, you will.

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Speaker 2: Believe it and you will feel it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember there were these tapes of these flute

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Speaker 1: scored readings of his that I remember listening to when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid, and it was like followers who

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Speaker 1: were reading them, and in one of them and like

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Speaker 1: even as you're saying that, I'm like thinking, like how

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Speaker 1: do I explain what you felt inside? There was like

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Speaker 1: literal childhood tapes, and in one of them, very specifically,

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Speaker 1: it says, this is Jones's words describing himself basically in

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Speaker 1: the way people should see him in. This is in

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Speaker 1: the early days. It became far more complicated later. Anyways,

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Speaker 1: he says, he smiles at you. You notice him. Everything

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Speaker 1: has already died. This is the other world.

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Speaker 2: Whoa.

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Speaker 1: And that's like the pacing at which it's read. So

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Speaker 1: you're just like you got going on. It's just really

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Speaker 1: vibing you a certain demo.

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Speaker 3: I mean, even just hearing you say that, I was like, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: take me there.

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Speaker 1: You notice him, everything has already died. So you just

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Speaker 1: have this sense that like he is everywhere and always

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Speaker 1: with you, and you're building a narrative as a community

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Speaker 1: around this beautiful world in which you sort of go

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Speaker 1: to the other side. Yeah, and he's waiting there for you.

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Speaker 1: He knows it and you do not, And everything miraculous

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Speaker 1: in the world comes from him.

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Speaker 2: Do you think he knew he was full of shit?

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Speaker 1: I have thoughts about that. I think, like many of

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Speaker 1: these gurus and teachers, where things get sort of where

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Speaker 1: they become increasingly more important within their own cosmology over time.

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Speaker 1: I do wonder sometimes if he saw what his followers

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Speaker 1: wanted from him and just kept doubling down on it, how.

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Speaker 4: Far do you think it could have gone? Because I

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Speaker 4: imagine Jonestown is happening around this time. His name happens

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Speaker 4: to be Jones, he has an island. I'm assuming a

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Speaker 4: lot of parallels were drawn after news.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, after the Jonestown massacre, people literally went up to

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Speaker 1: Franklin Jones's compound in northern California and through tomatoes.

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Speaker 4: At the door or whatever that was just in like

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Speaker 4: ancient kingdoms.

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Speaker 1: Yea, they actually got tomato.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, okay, yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's the story that was told. No tomatoes were documented.

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Speaker 1: You were in a place that I could have known.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they were rotten tomatoes or real tomatoes,

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Speaker 1: fresh tomatoes. No actual primary stop for y'all they were.

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Speaker 3: Can you explain a little bit what the actual lawsuits

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Speaker 3: were and what the allegations were about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So there were the allegations were that Jones was

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Speaker 1: manipulating people into doing things that would harm themselves, including

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Speaker 1: like uncoupling from their own partner and demanding that they

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Speaker 1: sort of like bend to his will, which included like

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Speaker 1: sex acts and things like that. The allegations themselves never

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Speaker 1: went to any kind of trial, so they were settled

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Speaker 1: out of court as we know, but that that information

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Speaker 1: was never made public records, so he ultimately denied any

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Speaker 1: claims that he used coercive tactics or manipulation, that he

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Speaker 1: was assaulting people sexually or otherwise, though those claims are

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Speaker 1: expressed by people in the podcast and certainly were in

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Speaker 1: the public forum.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, Tanya, who we mentioned earlier, is on the podcast

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Speaker 3: talking about a couple of instances, one in which there

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Speaker 3: was a part a naked party where she was told

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Speaker 3: she had to shave everyone's pubes. There's one evening in

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Speaker 3: which he announced he wanted to sleep with as many

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Speaker 3: women as he can and had them all cycle into

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Speaker 3: his room. And mind you, this is literally like God,

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Speaker 3: So you what are you going to not do it?

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Speaker 2: If God wants this from you?

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Speaker 3: And Tanya, although she had a partner who she loved,

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Speaker 3: was one of the women who was told to do this,

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Speaker 3: So I mean there are first hand accounts of these

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Speaker 3: things happening. Yes, they just happened to not go to

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Speaker 3: court for it, right.

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Speaker 1: That is correct, and I think people who remain followers

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Speaker 1: would likely continue to deny that those experiences were what

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Speaker 1: people like Tanya made them out to be, which I

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Speaker 1: think is itself so interesting that there are people who

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Speaker 1: believe so deeply in the spiritual primacy of Jones that

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Speaker 1: these experiences that were very clearly detailed as abuse would

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Speaker 1: be seen either as both alternately misconstrued or an opportunity

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Speaker 1: for some kind of spiritual gift that was not right,

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Speaker 1: not appreciated.

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Speaker 2: Right. Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: Before you came here, we were watching some stuff on

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Speaker 3: YouTube and we saw a follower who was a woman

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Speaker 3: who basically on like a year ago, accused some of

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Speaker 3: the people who came forward with allegations of just being

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Speaker 3: after money.

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Speaker 2: Starting the state.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which is yeah, fascinating that after all this time,

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Speaker 3: and I assume it's a decent number of people who

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Speaker 3: had things to say about what happened to them, many.

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Speaker 1: Many people who did not go on the record, many

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Speaker 1: people who I've met over the years who have reached

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Speaker 1: out to me privately after the show came out, even

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Speaker 1: you know who, I think, you know, just a testament

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Speaker 1: to the power of storytelling to just having the word

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Speaker 1: out there does become for some people a baseline of

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Speaker 1: understanding that makes them feel like they've been heard. And

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Speaker 1: I was grateful for those kinds of messages because it

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Speaker 1: made me feel like despite the fact that many of

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Speaker 1: these people I grew up with, none of whom I'm

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Speaker 1: really in contact with anymore, in large part because of

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Speaker 1: what was said on the Post podcast, even though I

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Speaker 1: think I we were talking about this earlier, but I

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Speaker 1: went to great lengths to try to be understanding of

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Speaker 1: why people would have joined Jones's group, of maybe even

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Speaker 1: why Jones thought that what he was doing was right

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Speaker 1: or whatever, trying to trying to think about these things

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Speaker 1: in the best possible light and still struggling but trying to.

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Speaker 1: I think it would probably have made the series differently today,

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Speaker 1: but it was a different person then. None of those

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Speaker 1: people that I knew who I grew up with in

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Speaker 1: the group could really understand or appreciate that, because to

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Speaker 1: them this was a divine being. Jones was not Franklin Jones.

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Speaker 1: He was Adi Dah somraj. He was a physical incarnation

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Speaker 1: of God come down into a human form to save

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Speaker 1: everybody from the dark times what they called the Coali Yuga.

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Speaker 2: Dark times, so that was the next start of time.

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Speaker 1: It's a very long dark time. You know, they gave

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Speaker 1: themselves a super long window for that sort of joking.

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Speaker 1: It is sort of part of like, you know, some

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Speaker 1: religious ideas about eras of times.

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Speaker 4: You guys, interesting, the age of Aquarius is like supposed

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Speaker 4: to be the new light age, right, yeah, it's it's something.

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Speaker 1: It's it's like that, and you know, so not to

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Speaker 1: denigrate big world religion in in sort of suggesting that

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Speaker 1: that itself is not a night but the way I

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Speaker 1: think it was sort of used within the group was

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Speaker 1: as this kind of indicator of the dangers and there's

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Speaker 1: the world.

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Speaker 2: There's so many really smart people in the group.

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Speaker 4: And I think one of our one of the things

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Speaker 4: that we always like ticket across is that stupid people

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Speaker 4: are not who joins these groups. And I could see

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Speaker 4: somebody listening who's very smart, who's still in it, being like,

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Speaker 4: these people do not get it. They're not listening, they're

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Speaker 4: not they don't understand. It's not clacking for them. What

421
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Speaker 4: did Justin Bieber say, it's not clocking for you, but

422
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Speaker 4: like they're just projecting their own intelligence onto his teachings,

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Speaker 4: so like they might be believing something very smart and cool.

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Speaker 1: But like, yeah, but to use another justin bieber frase,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to stand on my business.

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Speaker 2: Here, standing on business.

427
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Speaker 1: And say that you can define words out of existence

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Speaker 1: until they mean nothing. And I think that is to

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Speaker 1: me the crux of what that thinking, when it becomes

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Speaker 1: cult like, starts to engender in some people that I

431
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Speaker 1: have met with in this group and other groups, who

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Speaker 1: are so sure that the vision of reality that they've

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Speaker 1: been sold is too beautiful and glorious to let go of.

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Speaker 1: They will try to iron out all of the nuance

435
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Speaker 1: and split all the hair into it makes.

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Speaker 2: Sense, yeah, because it's not an intellectual thing. It's an

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Speaker 2: emotional thing.

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Speaker 3: Yes, If we are going through life and we're on

439
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 3: the things, and then someone introduces us to a teaching

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00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 3: in a way that's giving us a peak experience that

441
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 3: gives us relief from that and this feeling of transcendence

442
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 3: and connection to all beings, like, of course we're going

443
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 3: to want to go towards that, and then we're going

444
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 3: to find ways to intellectualize why it's logical and why

445
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 3: it makes sense. But at the core underneath we are

446
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 3: emotional creatures and that's how we make our decisions.

447
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: And you know, I was talking to Joe Simhart a

448
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: little while ago, who your listeners may know, was like

449
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: this kind of well known exit counselor d programmer involved

450
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: in a lot of these groups, like getting in the

451
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: weeds with some of these cult groups in the eighties.

452
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 1: And he's of the mind and not just paraphrasing him,

453
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: so I don't want to directly quote him. Says he's

454
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: not here to speak to it. But what the impression

455
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 1: I got from a conversation we had was, you know,

456
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: some of the people who join these groups are some

457
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: of the most intelligent people because they're able to sort

458
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: of bend to the possibility that be open minded, able

459
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: to sort of like critically imagine a world where this

460
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: might be true. How do what do we know? Jones

461
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: is saying that there's like you know, and some of

462
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: these talks that we'd hear in a reality you cannot see,

463
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: and the core of that reality is your own illusion

464
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: that you were not a part of it. And you're like,

465
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: maybe he's right, And how could I prove that he's not?

466
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it.

467
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 3: Requires some cognitive flexibility and then the cults shut down

468
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 3: that flexibility and make it rigid.

469
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 4: But that's like what brings us in, right, And that's

470
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 4: and that's a great point, Like how do I know

471
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 4: if it's true?

472
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: I don't.

473
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 4: He kind of even towards the end, really started playing

474
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 4: on that, like, you guys are not enlightened, and it's

475
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 4: not like you can be like, yeah, I am, because.

476
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: Only he knows.

477
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: How am I not myself?

478
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 4: Yeah?

479
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: You know, so when your parents joined and then when

480
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 3: you were growing up, like how did they and you

481
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 3: kind of square reconcile this history of these allegations and

482
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 3: him being in the news, you know, as this dangerous figure.

483
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: Like they had different responses when I've asked them about that.

484
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: I think they alternately felt like the media and the

485
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: news was sensational. And you know, by the mid to

486
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 1: late eighties, there was quite a bit of controversy around

487
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: cult groups. This is after Jonestown, people who are anti

488
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: cult advocates, exit counselors, people like Rick Ross or appearent

489
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 1: Rick Allen. Ross's like we're appearing on you know, daytime

490
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 1: TV shows and talking about some of these groups literally

491
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: on you know, Oprah Oprah forty eight hours, like news

492
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: programs like deprogramming people. There was quite a bit of

493
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: concern about groups that Jones was sort of lumped into.

494
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: I think they perceived all of that as just like

495
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: a panic, yeah, judgment masquerading as concern.

496
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 4: From your perspective, now, do you think that this group

497
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 4: had a Jones sound potential.

498
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: I think any high control group does. I really think

499
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: that it is possible. And you know, there were people

500
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: who were really on the margins who could have done

501
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: bad things to themselves or to others, And in my knowledge,

502
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: there were no murders or serious like you know, people

503
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 1: committing suicide or anything like that. In relationship to Jones's

504
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: group we talk about, you know, when I started to

505
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: dig deep into the first group, my parents were involved,

506
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: and there was a young woman who took her life

507
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: in large part it was understood because of her relationship

508
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: to this teacher, and that really hit home for me

509
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: when I started to look into Her name was Brenda Kerber,

510
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: And when I started to look into that story, it

511
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: definitely resonated for me and thinking about what I I

512
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: was raised in that I never saw anything like that

513
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, but I think whatever the group,

514
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: when you were offering the answer to the entire universe

515
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: and why we're here and what we're doing, the stakes

516
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly be higher. And people who arrive at an

517
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: alternative idea of that answer, who don't maybe accept the

518
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: conventional wisdom or thoughts about why we're here and what

519
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: it means. Those people, I feel like are disproportionately going

520
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: to be people who already feel like they're on the margins,

521
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: who feel like society is not answering the questions that

522
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: they need to answer, so they are imperiled in the

523
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: sense that they may be suffering in a more elevated

524
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: way than your average person. Well, well, does that make sense.

525
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of dancing around it because I don't

526
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: want to, like, I'm not trying to say that any

527
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: of these groups did the groups that my parents were

528
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: involved in actually did that to a person. I do

529
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: not know that, but I do know that, like vulnerable

530
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: people who are searching for something that's outside of the

531
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: boundaries of conventional society, it feels like a pretty dangerous

532
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: position to be in.

533
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 3: Well, and like, yes, vulnerable people joined, but then also

534
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 3: like the minute all of your trust and all of

535
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 3: your faith and all of your life is put into

536
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 3: the hands of one individual who gets power hungry, and

537
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 3: often they, like you know, seem to unravel and get

538
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: paranoid as they get older and people start to leave, Like, yeah,

539
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 3: that's I think you're basically entirely at the whims of

540
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 3: at the whimsicalness of who is at the top and

541
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: who is controlling your life, and like lucky that they

542
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 3: don't happen to want to You know that this Jones

543
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 3: didn't happen to want everybody to die. But how many groups,

544
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 3: if the leader to go in that direction, would lead

545
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 3: people into that direction? Because again, once you have accepted

546
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 3: the premise that this person is God or directly in

547
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 3: touch with God, or knows things that nobody else in

548
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 3: the world knows, well, what choice do you have but

549
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: to listen to them?

550
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I could not agree with that more. And

551
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 1: the line in the sand feels like a very thin line.

552
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: Last year, I spent quite a bit of time looking

553
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: into another cult group, which.

554
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 4: We're going to have you on the podcast.

555
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: I said seven, you said forty. We'll see.

556
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: I will accept any and all offers. Seven and forty

557
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: seems like a great range to be in lots to discuss.

558
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: But there's a group in the Dallas area in the

559
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,719
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and eighties called the Conscious Development of Mind, Body,

560
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: and Spirit.

561
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: All have such great names, okay.

562
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: Such I mean, these could all be indie bands. Terry

563
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: Hoffman was the leader of that group. And Terry Hoffman

564
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: was this kind of spiritual advisor. She was a very

565
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: odd person. She was like not who you'd think of.

566
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: She was not particularly charismatic.

567
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 2: Which can also be charismatics.

568
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: Somehow, she had this kind of raggedy profit street profit

569
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: kind of vibe to Yeah. Yeah, I mean she talked

570
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: about being an orphan, which was maybe true, maybe not

571
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: like birth records. Anyway. The point is is she started

572
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: a group which in their documents suggests that there is

573
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: some other plane that we can be on if we

574
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: sort of practice her regimen, and a number of her

575
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: followers mysteriously committed suicide, some of whom even talked about

576
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: that plane, the purple plane, that they would go to shit.

577
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 2: That's what we're saying with chat Chipetina.

578
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's really fright. And in the case of Hoffman,

579
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: you know, the IRS and the FBI and local law

580
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: enforcement did get involved because it seemed coincidentally that a

581
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: number of the people who took their.

582
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: Lives left their stuff, left their life insurance policy.

583
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 3: Oh. I have things to say about this, but I

584
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 3: can't right now because I need to wait until more

585
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 3: comes out.

586
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: But okay, yeah, to that point, right, Like, there is

587
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: a range in high control groups of what appears to

588
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: just be harmless if you want to call it harmless.

589
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: It certainly didn't feel that way to me, but like

590
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: harmless worship of an individual through you know, ritualized practices

591
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: like meditation, offering flowers, putting ash on the picture.

592
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: Of them and yeah, what's the ritual? No problem?

593
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, like do you yeah, you know or him

594
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: or whatever? Leslie him, I try to do you. It's

595
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: not going to work out too. There's really only one

596
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: room for one at the top.

597
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: I think about Moses Storm. I think he was like

598
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 2: our second guest.

599
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 4: I think in a great episode said something about how

600
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 4: he was really fearful when he was younger, that his

601
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 4: mom was I don't want to butcher his quote, but sorry, Moses,

602
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 4: you hear this, but that his mom might hurt them

603
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 4: because you know, once your soul is a certain age.

604
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 4: I think it's like ten or twelve, you're now responsible

605
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 4: for going to heaven or hell. And a woman in

606
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 4: the group that he was in killed her children, and

607
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 4: he worried that that might be his fate. And I

608
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 4: have talked to several people who were just raised normal

609
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 4: Christian who kind of felt that way, like, maybe you

610
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 4: know before, I'm actually a sinner because this damnation thing

611
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 4: feels very real.

612
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 2: Something to save me? Yeah, oh wow. Interesting.

613
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, speaking of putting all of your faith and belief

614
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 3: into a leader, you hit a point in your teenage

615
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 3: years where you did, in fact do that.

616
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about that?

617
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 4: Yeah?

618
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: And I think it's sort of apologies for time shifting

619
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: a little bit here. I think, you know, part of

620
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 1: what brought me to that place was a desire to be,

621
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: as we discussed, sort of like closer to my parents'

622
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: belief system and sort of fall in line with what

623
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,439
Speaker 1: they wanted. But then also, you know, being in these

624
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 1: highly organized, kind of social, socially engineered environments where you're

625
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: in front of the grow and he's doing all this

626
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: stuff and looking at you a certain way, and you

627
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: feel like you know you've experienced something or not. But

628
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 1: you're not sure, but you know, there was a lot

629
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: of that. I remember I walked out of that first meditation,

630
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 1: they call it a darshan. I remember I exited the

631
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: room and the cole there hit me again because the

632
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: room was were controlled, very nice, everything was expensive, like

633
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: everything was decorated. He's on the top of this podium,

634
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: you know, or the point what do you call it,

635
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: like a diases like on sitting there way above you,

636
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: you know, and then the cold air hit me and

637
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: I just started crying and I just burst into tears

638
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: because I just felt like I didn't even know what

639
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 1: it was that I had just experienced. What did that mean?

640
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: What was it? And so I think I spent, you know,

641
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: increasingly the years from that point forward until we left

642
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 1: the group when I was about seventeen, both willing myself

643
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: to believe that what I saw wasn't the cigarette burn

644
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: but was the magical electric fire of divine healing. Yeah, yeah, right, So,

645
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: and I tried to articulate this, and I have over

646
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: the years tried to articulate this that there's like it

647
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: was like living in both of those worlds at the

648
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 1: same time between like okay, order for me to know

649
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 1: what he says he knows and I don't know. I

650
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: have to worship him as God, but like, is it

651
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: going to get there? But if I question it, is

652
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: it going to actually make it hard for me to

653
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 1: get there? Like I had to that part of the practice,

654
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: the quote unquote practice, was disabling the doubt that you

655
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: had about his spiritual ubiquity. So it was accepted and

656
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: cleverly positioned as something to both, you know, arrest yourself of,

657
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 1: but also something that you might feel because you can't

658
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 1: tell people they don't feel a certain way and have

659
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: them stick around. But you can be like, yeah, you

660
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: don't believe that I'm God, but that's normal. Keep believing

661
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: until you believe it. And so I, having been through that,

662
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 1: still feel like for many the people in that group,

663
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: who like person you saw on the internet like doggedly

664
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: believe that all these allegations are salacious ignorant. I feel

665
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: like those people must on some fundamental level live with

666
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: that doubt. There is no way as a human being

667
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: to live with that doubt because I do not believe

668
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: that he is God.

669
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 4: And some people just go straight to their unconscious you know,

670
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 4: like they don't Yeah, I think they just unconsciously feel

671
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 4: that and they don't even know that they do.

672
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

673
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have encountered this with

674
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: other people you've talked to. But I find myself both

675
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: wanting to explain the bare bones of my experience with y'all,

676
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: but also to interrogate how it might happen, because there's

677
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: a pedestrian answer to that question, which is, yeah, I

678
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 1: believed it. I sat there, I worshiped him. I willed

679
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: myself into these experiences that I thought were like me

680
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: experiencing him. You were like you were literally told to

681
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: breathe and visualize him coming into your body. Oh wow, Yes,

682
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: that was from the top of your head. He came

683
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: down like a roller coaster, whow through the chakras or whatever,

684
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: and then down up the back of your spine.

685
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: I don't get out of my body. I don't want

686
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: you in there.

687
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: We're supposed to want him in there. So like, there's

688
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: a level of operationalizing, if you will, of the practice

689
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: of submitting yourself to this person that you could follow

690
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 1: almost by rote and not have to question the actual

691
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: mechanics of it. I don't think I've ever mentioned that

692
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: piece before publicly, and to see your reaction to it,

693
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: just like gave me the he Begb's right, because I'm like,

694
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: oh yeah, oh yeah, that is weird, you know, like

695
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: yeah shit, yeah, so yes, I think I believed it.

696
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: I practiced the the disciplines, but on some very deep level, unconscious,

697
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: maybe I felt like I was always questioning whether or

698
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 1: not this was something real.

699
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, like you would have the emotional experience of it,

700
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 3: but there's always a part of you that's like, was

701
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 3: that just was that manufacturer? Like part of you always

702
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 3: wonders that, yes, yeah, that is so interesting. I have

703
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 3: told the story a million times, so apologies to our listeners.

704
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 3: But when I believed in my cult leader, I was,

705
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 3: you know, praying, and I'm sure you've heard this as well.

706
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 3: I was praying to bear my testimony by myself, and

707
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 3: I got this, like I couldn't bring myself to finish

708
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 3: the sentence. I know that Blank is a true prophet,

709
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 3: and I like took note of it. I was like,

710
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 3: I'll just like think about that later. I just won't

711
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 3: worry about that right now. But like both things were

712
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 3: there simultaneously, Like I felt really wrapped up in this,

713
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 3: the excitement of being chosen you know, being I'm separated

714
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 3: from my mom, but it feels like which is really difficult.

715
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,240
Speaker 3: But I'm like, okay, I'm suffering for a higher peris

716
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 3: and like it feels like I'm going to, you know,

717
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 3: in a movie, like I'm a fucking Han Solo or

718
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 3: something or sorry not Han Solo.

719
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 2: The other one.

720
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 3: I don't know anything about Star Wars Skywalker. He's like,

721
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 3: I'm Luke Skywalker.

722
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: Are they the same person? No?

723
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 5: No, you guys, I know that I'm screaming in here.

724
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 5: Oh my god, hilarious.

725
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 2: Okay, not Star Wars people in this room.

726
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 3: It's great, but you know, like, but at the same time,

727
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 3: I have this other thing that like coexists with it

728
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 3: at the same time, and I'm kind of doesn't.

729
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true.

730
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 3: Like we do answer this question typically like kind of

731
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 3: one or the other, depending on where it's most leaning

732
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 3: at that time.

733
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,720
Speaker 2: But the truth is, most of the time it's multiple things.

734
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,479
Speaker 3: We have multiple minds about it at the same time,

735
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,479
Speaker 3: and part of it might just not be conscious yet

736
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 3: or as conscious. I think people who have not experienced

737
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 3: what the three of us have in some fashion.

738
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: Or the immortals yes, yes, or.

739
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 3: Who haven't you know, delved into the world of cult

740
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 3: survivors or whatever. Like we'll hear people like us talk

741
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 3: about cognitive dissonance and talk about how you know, on

742
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 3: some level we know. And I've heard people be like, well,

743
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 3: you know, though, so why don't you just leave because

744
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 3: you obviously know? And that that's the thing I kind

745
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 3: of just want to push back against, because like, even

746
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 3: when you have a feeling like you have all of

747
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 3: these other feelings that are so much bigger and gas lit, yes,

748
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 3: and you are being actively manipulated, you are surrounded by

749
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 3: people who believe the same thing. It's your community, it's

750
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 3: your identity, it's your life is being controlled. And so

751
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 3: even if part of you on some level might have

752
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 3: an inkling, you don't know that that inkling is real,

753
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 3: and your.

754
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 2: Top of that inkling is like, well, in my case,

755
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 2: the devil you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're exactly.

756
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 3: You're given a framework for what that inkling means that

757
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 3: prevents you from actually recognizing it as critical thinking the

758
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 3: ego exactly, exactly, Yeah.

759
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what you have to find. You have to

760
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: find that discomfort and find a way to let it go.

761
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: And I think even when you have like if you

762
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: believe this is a thing like a snapping moment, you know,

763
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 1: where you sort of like haven't about about what you believe,

764
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: or if it's more gradual whatever, the sort of process

765
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: of kind of disentangling yourself from the beliefs there is,

766
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: there's just a thread that will always be there, at

767
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: least for me. There's knowledge that you can you can

768
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: wander down a rabbit hole somewhere and end up with

769
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 1: a set of beliefs that you realize in that moment

770
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: you didn't want, but have no way of being able

771
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: to kind of really delineate how you got there.

772
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, the leader doesn't even know.

773
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true, Which is which when I'm asked about

774
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: do I think that jos wanted this group to be

775
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 1: the way that it was, I don't think he did.

776
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 1: And he actually publicly said that he would say, only

777
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: the worst of men, only the worst of man and

778
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 1: cad come to me, you know, a web of talking

779
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: and he would say, like, only the worst of mankind

780
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,439
Speaker 1: come to me. This idea that like his followers were

781
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: not shining citizens, which is its own. That's true, to

782
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: be clear, Like these people dedicated their lives the first time. Yeah,

783
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 1: and people endured this kind of harsh language from him.

784
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 1: We get into it.

785
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 2: He was such a to them, yeah, and then so

786
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 2: loving and so fucked Yeah.

787
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: And for our maybe our ninth or tenth conversation of

788
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: the between seven and forty one. You know, my dad

789
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: was in a way as aspired ultimately to be like him.

790
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: And I just wrote a book about him. He just

791
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: passed away this year, and I'm sorry, Yeah, I think

792
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 1: I mean it was both. It was both a very

793
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: sad moment, but he also had been struggling with dementia

794
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: for almost a decade, so you know, I think there

795
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: was some relief there too. But you know, my dad

796
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: was it was almost easier for me to acknowledge his

797
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 1: behavior as abusive, even though in many ways his behavior

798
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: was precisely the kind of behavior that people in the

799
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: group experienced, you know. But he wanted to be like him,

800
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: you know, wanted to have that authority, wanted to be

801
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: able to sort of pin somebody something Jones would do

802
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: start going all over the map. But something Jones would

803
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: do is like pick people out, like you would have

804
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: these like groups where people would ask questions, and sometimes

805
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,439
Speaker 1: people would ask a question that seemed benign like you'd

806
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 1: watch it, you'd be like, this is legitimately no different

807
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: than the question that came before it from somebody else.

808
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: But he would like get in his head and he

809
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 1: would totally destroy that person.

810
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 2: Just escapegoat them.

811
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: Just completely eviscerate them, like down to the bones of

812
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: who he said that they were. And that was supposed

813
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: to be a blessing. And people in the group will

814
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 1: tell you that, but they'll almost tell it to you sometimes,

815
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: some of them with a kind of like like in

816
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 1: an exulting way, the blessing of his fierce criticism.

817
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 3: Oh my god, no, no, yeah, it's so acting classes

818
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 3: in LA, those like negative acting classes, and you see it.

819
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 4: They escapegoat somebody that like somebody will ask a question

820
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 4: and somebody will do a scene and that scene was

821
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 4: just terrible, and you're like, what the fuck are you

822
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 4: talking about? Anyway, Yes, I haven't been to.

823
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: Those Oh yeah, break you down to build you.

824
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 2: Up so ugly, ugly. Yeah.

825
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: The problem with that whole notion, even if there's some

826
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: rationale behind it, which I don't think that there is,

827
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: but the problem with that notion is there is a

828
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: vacuum that appears when one person and submits their own

829
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 1: agency to another that is filled by the person who's

830
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: saying they're helping you become something better. Right then just

831
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: gobbles it up. It's like insatiable, you know, need to

832
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: have that sense, you know, that bigger sense of who

833
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 1: they are or whatever they think that they're doing. I mean,

834
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: I'm just psychoanalyzing Jones now, but like, yeah, yeah, I

835
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: mean I have always found it difficult to answer those

836
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: kinds of questions directly. And I think I'm okay with

837
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 1: living in a territory of thinking as a human being

838
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: on this planet for as long as I'm here, which

839
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 1: is forever.

840
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,240
Speaker 2: I was like, is he about to forget forever?

841
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 1: I'm comfortable with living with the idea that I could

842
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: have and can, at any moment wander into somebody else's

843
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 1: coercive story and lose myself. Not that I will, not

844
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: that that's very likely given everything that I've been through

845
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 1: and what I do with my life on a daily basis,

846
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 1: but it's possible.

847
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: That's it gives you the resilience to be wrong, Yeah.

848
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: Right, because part of this is the idea that you

849
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 1: aren't ever wrong.

850
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 4: Right.

851
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: The whole reason I did dear Franklin Jones was I

852
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: wanted my parents to understand, just for a moment that

853
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: this linear trajectory they thought that we were on towards

854
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 1: spiritual fulfillment. That they would literally say to me that

855
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 1: they were like freeing themselves of all these karmic attachments

856
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 1: to ego and to like lives that they had passed

857
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 1: lives they lived all this stuff about like that was

858
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,720
Speaker 1: supposed to be reaching towards their spiritual enlightenment, their freedom,

859
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 1: their absorption into Jones that because they were doing that work,

860
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: somehow this was like a genetic inheritance for me and

861
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: that I was going to get it and be better off,

862
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: Which is a little bit puzzling if you think that

863
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: you live multiple lives too, Like which life is? Does

864
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: it like reset in the next one? Do I carry

865
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 1: it over?

866
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: Like is it a death?

867
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: Wow, it's convoluted. But they believed in some way there

868
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: was a trajectory that we were on together and that

869
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: it was going to be you know, that this was better.

870
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: And I think for me, I just wanted them to

871
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 1: acknowledge the possibility that maybe we went down like maybe

872
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: on a little bit of a wout chase there, and

873
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 1: that like you can make mistakes in life and still

874
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,800
Speaker 1: be on the path. They wanted to believe so much

875
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: that there were no side channels that they went off on,

876
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: that they didn't make any mistakes and this was all

877
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: grist for the mill, and I don't believe that it was.

878
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: That's all I wanted them to do was acknowledge that

879
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: it was possible we made a mistake somewhere along line,

880
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: even if it was just Hey, things were pretty good

881
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: until the nineties and then it got a little weird

882
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: and we ducked. Yeah, but it wasn't possible for them,

883
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: and my dad and I were estranged from each other

884
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: after the podcast came out for that exact reason. And frankly,

885
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: I don't and I'll say this, I don't care, like

886
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 1: I don't think my mom and I were ever the

887
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 1: same after this either.

888
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 4: Really really, I mean, I am so impressed with this podcast.

889
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 4: Like people do not talk to their parents how you

890
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 4: talk to your parents, I mean, and I don't mean

891
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 4: that you're being disrespectful at all, No, No, you really

892
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 4: just say, hey, here's what happened, and some of it's

893
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 4: so vast like uncomfortable, and you sat with that in

894
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 4: a way that I am not able to do well.

895
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: I appreciate you saying that. I don't think my parents

896
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 1: were able to sit with it in a way that

897
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: they could embrace, despite the fact that I think they

898
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: would want, both of them individually to believe that they

899
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: were the most open minded, the most trupressive, the most

900
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: forward thinking people out there, and yet they couldn't acknowledge

901
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: in their own son a sense that this maybe wasn't

902
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: all wine and roses for him, right, And I think

903
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 1: to your point that ability to acknowledge mistake is so

904
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: important to not falling prey to a high control environment,

905
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: because the high control environment establishes an objective truth, squishy

906
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: and elusive as it might be, that you need to

907
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: aspire towards enlightenment, salvation, whatever it is, and you can't

908
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: ever question that you're questioning is the process of getting there.

909
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: And yet mistakes changing, you know, courses in life, pivoting, restarting,

910
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,280
Speaker 1: like that's what makes us better, that's what makes us whole,

911
00:51:58,320 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: that's what makes us human.

912
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 3: Right, and not restarting because God decided we should. But right, yeah,

913
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 3: because oh maybe that was wrong with the book.

914
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 1: They were just doing hoops, Okay, Yeah, let me redo that.

915
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I think that's our humanity. I think

916
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: as a dad. I've got two boys now, one who's

917
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: seven and one who is like twenty one months, and

918
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: I think about the little dude. If I operated from

919
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: the point of view that he needed to live in

920
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: a world where he never made mistakes, how dangerous that

921
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 1: would be when he was like belly flopping on a

922
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: chair earlier today and like tipping over to the side.

923
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: If I didn't believe that, it was like if I

924
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: caught him and maybe he hurt himself, and like he

925
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: needed to be comforted, but then reminded that, like maybe

926
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: he shouldn't sit on that chair. Like isn't that like

927
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 1: the nature of parenting. You grow up, you get older,

928
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 1: your kids make mistakes, like somebody you know, I don't know,

929
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: Heaven forbid, like crashes a car, or like it's a

930
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: bad grade on a test. If I was like living

931
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: in some world where mistakes were not an option, I

932
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 1: would be fighting against the nature of reality.

933
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 2: But so many people do, yes, so many, I mean

934
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 2: so many people in the political sphere.

935
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 3: That's like their entire em oh, the way that they operate,

936
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 3: even even in relationships.

937
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 2: I find it difficult. It's difficult to find people who

938
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 2: can acknowledge that.

939
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 3: I mean, it's and I've struggled with acknowledging that I

940
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 3: still do. You know, like it's one of the hardest

941
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 3: things I think as a human to be able to

942
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 3: have that humility and say I was wrong, I hurt someone, right,

943
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 3: and I'm gonna do better, right.

944
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 2: And I think like on the twelve Steps we are

945
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 2: like really covering everything.

946
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 4: But you know, like like one of the goals of

947
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 4: it is that you do say I made a mistake,

948
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 4: I was wrong here, and you realize like, oh I

949
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 4: didn't die.

950
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 2: Yes, that wasn't that big of a deal.

951
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 4: It's like doing it is so much harder than experiencing

952
00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,240
Speaker 4: it after So I don't.

953
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 3: Know, basically, we all should just get better as saying

954
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 3: we were wrong sometimes apologizing and it's really not that

955
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:07,399
Speaker 3: big of a deal.

956
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 2: It's like fine, Yes.

957
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: It is completely fine to make mistakes and to move

958
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: on with your life and to like find a way

959
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: to be somebody else than what you were a moment earlier.

960
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 1: And I think that's a beautiful Yeah, it's a beautiful

961
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,839
Speaker 1: part of life. But it's such a beautiful dream too.

962
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: That like there is some other side, you know, that

963
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: where everything is perfect, where you are perfect, where you

964
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 1: don't die.

965
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah all in the dream.

966
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:47,320
Speaker 3: Yeah wow, well we should we should wrap up suits.

967
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: I was like, I just looked at my watch.

968
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 2: I know, I know.

969
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 3: I mean, briefly, how did you come to leave? How

970
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 3: did you your family come to leave? How did you

971
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 3: come to leave?

972
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: So funny, We're just getting to this now, so much

973
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: to cover. But there was another acupuncturist in the picture.

974
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 2: Oh he was cheating.

975
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: He was cheating on my parents with another acupuncturist, or

976
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: they were disinvited from their regular appointment as his acupuncturists.

977
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: And I think they believed he'd had to do with

978
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,280
Speaker 1: the fact that he was seeing another acupuncturist. They believed

979
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: he was having like a sexual relationship with that person.

980
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 1: I don't actually know. I cannot remember whether or not

981
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: she denied that fact, or whether or not she spoke

982
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 1: about it.

983
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 2: Your dad was like, I know my unlicensed acupuncture.

984
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 1: I may not have gone to acupuncture school, but I

985
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: know my guns. You cheated. No, But I think they

986
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,959
Speaker 1: they felt she had sort of inter intervened on their

987
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: unique relationship with Jones, and they were kind of like

988
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: spun out from there and my dad lost it. Definitely

989
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: was not happy. He was convinced at that point that

990
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 1: Jones was a bad person, like funny, that that was

991
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: what sent him over the edge. But at one point

992
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: he was going to write his own scathing memoir about

993
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: being in the group. He was going to call it

994
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: Vampires Kiss. Yes, feels like a maybe an Anne Rice novel,

995
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 1: but I need some workshopping Vampires Kiss. Maybe it was

996
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: Kiss of the Vietnam No, that is it, Anne Rice.

997
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: So he was quite upset. He wanted to leave, and

998
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,839
Speaker 1: I didn't want to go. I didn't want to leave.

999
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: I was still wedded to this group at this point.

1000
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: I had built my whole life around it. I had

1001
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,359
Speaker 1: left high school, I was homeschooled, living in northern California,

1002
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 1: part of the group. I didn't want to leave. I

1003
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: used to hide a picture of Jones in my room

1004
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:56,879
Speaker 1: for my parents because I didn't want them to see

1005
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 1: that I still had it up. Wow, those last months

1006
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:06,439
Speaker 1: year before it just kind of like everything just sort

1007
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 1: of and then there was just a long, a long

1008
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: period of almost like recovering, like we had just come

1009
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 1: down from this thing. I don't even know if I

1010
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: was completely out of it yet, you know what I mean.

1011
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: I just felt like I was in this ugh state

1012
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: for quite some time. But my dad was the one

1013
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 1: who wanted to leave, and my mom of course did

1014
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 1: whatever he wanted to do. And then, you know, eventually

1015
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: I came to I probably a far more pointed conclusion

1016
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: about Jones than he did in the end, because till

1017
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 1: the day my dad died, he believed that Jones was

1018
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: He even says it in the series. He's like, you know,

1019
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 1: you can be enlightened and still be an asshole. Was

1020
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: his belief Jones could be all these things. A manipulator,

1021
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: you know, chee puncture, yeah, yeah, acupuncture of course.

1022
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 2: Because that's making you grow such part of it.

1023
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, So he believed that that was like almost part

1024
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: of it, part of the group, part of the you know,

1025
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: part of this tradition of spiritual teachers who challenge you know,

1026
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: in Buddhism and Hinduism and called them like crazy whise teachers.

1027
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 2: Why why why did they leave all together?

1028
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 3: Instead of just accepting that they were run of the

1029
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:18,959
Speaker 3: mill members.

1030
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: I think he must have had his own kind of

1031
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: snapping moment. Yeah, just probably hurt a lot. Yeah, and

1032
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 1: he did want to be his own mini Jones, you know,

1033
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 1: so like he would host these meditations on Sundays. Oh really, yeah,

1034
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: my dad would after that.

1035
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 2: Interesting so never formed.

1036
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it didn't stick with him.

1037
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 4: And less charismatic with Jones either, Like at the end

1038
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 4: of his life, he was like, we don't have enough people.

1039
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,880
Speaker 4: Why is this only reaching a thousand people? And if

1040
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 4: you are enlightened, like I don't.

1041
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 2: Like, it's oh your fault. You guys did a bad job.

1042
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 4: You know.

1043
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: There were seven stages of life in Jones's like, oh

1044
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 1: group in his philosophy, as far as I know, nobody

1045
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: made it past one point two holy shit, So you'd

1046
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: be like, you'd get like level.

1047
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 2: One so scientilgalogy.

1048
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he did dabble in that before stars.

1049
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 4: Yes, well, thank you for covering every corner of cults

1050
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 4: with us my life and I've learned a lot today.

1051
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's been such a pleasure. I'm so

1052
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 1: grateful to have a chance to meet you guys and

1053
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 1: talk about all this stuff.

1054
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 3: And you know where you have so many projects? Yes,

1055
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 3: what are you doing right now?

1056
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 1: Well, I continue to make documentary series. I head up

1057
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 1: something for Sony's podcast division called The Binge, which is

1058
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 1: like true crime docs. I produce some of them. I

1059
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: helped to edit and executive produce the other ones. So yeah,

1060
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 1: I mean people can find me anywhere Instagram. Maybe I

1061
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: don't know.

1062
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1063
00:59:58,120 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1064
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 3: And the podcast that we've been referring to throughout this

1065
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 3: episode was called Dear Franklin Jones. Yes, and you also

1066
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 3: wrote a book that I feel you should mention.

1067
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: Yes, I should mention the book. Thank you. I wrote

1068
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: a book for Simon and Schuster that came out this

1069
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: year called The Mind Is Burning Losing my father to

1070
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: a cult and dementia, and it sort of, I think,

1071
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 1: picks up where Dear Franklin Jones leaves off and digs

1072
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: into my life with my dad after I did the series,

1073
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 1: backtrack a little bit and talk about my childhood too,

1074
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: but mostly through the lens of my relationship to him,

1075
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 1: because we were effectively estranged after Dear Franklin Jones came

1076
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,920
Speaker 1: out and then he got sick with dementia, and that

1077
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 1: began the many years long journey towards you know, illness

1078
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: and ultimately death, which I will not myself be incurring. Yes,

1079
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 1: I had to get one last let us. But yeah,

1080
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 1: the mind is Burning is the name of the of

1081
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 1: the book.

1082
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us, and we're coming

1083
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 2: into this duty.

1084
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 1: Oh my god, my pleasure. This has been the most

1085
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: delightful and enjoyable conversation about cults that I have ever had.

1086
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 2: So good.

1087
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you, really really fun.

1088
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:26,440
Speaker 4: All right, that concludes the second part of our interview

1089
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 4: with Jonathan, and today, Lola, we're going to do something

1090
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 4: a little out of the ordinary. I'm going to ask

1091
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 4: you you yourself, would.

1092
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 2: You join this cult?

1093
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think this will be a surprise

1094
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 3: to anyone, but probably not.

1095
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 4: Now.

1096
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 2: I mean, okay, here's what I like.

1097
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 3: I do like the meditation aspect, and I do like ritual.

1098
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 2: I do like those things.

1099
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 4: They would just need to call it like mindfulness and discipline, Yes.

1100
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 3: Exactly, improved improve yourself. Yeah, and like I gotta say, like,

1101
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 3: I find his face so compelling that I feel you're

1102
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 3: speaking of the leader, of course, Yes, the leader, ADDI

1103
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 3: da Franklin Jones, not Jonathan harsh although I love Jonathan Harshay. Yes,

1104
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 3: I mean, you're obsessed with this man's face, it's just

1105
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 3: so like I think as a director, I'm like, you know,

1106
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 3: like some faces are just so interesting and you like

1107
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 3: want them as a character actor or whatever.

1108
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:25,959
Speaker 2: Like that's kind of how I feel.

1109
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 3: I'm like, I want to cast this man posthumously and

1110
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 3: like have him play a weirdo in a movie. Like

1111
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 3: I just find his face very interesting. But I don't

1112
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 3: think ultimately that new age groups are my kind of groups.

1113
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 2: Well that's fine, leave them all for me.

1114
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 4: Mark, Okay, so greedy, Thanks for listening to us another

1115
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 4: week you guys. As always, remember to rate us five

1116
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 4: stars and remember to grab some trust Me merch at

1117
01:02:55,560 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 4: exactly rightstore dot com. And as always, remember to follow

1118
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 4: your gut, watch out for red flags.

1119
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me. Bye.

1120
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 3: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted by me

1121
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:13,640
Speaker 3: Lola Blanc and.

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01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 4: Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is g.

1123
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 2: Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1124
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1125
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 4: is Patrick Kottner.

1126
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 2: Our theme song was composed by Holly Ambert Church.

1127
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 4: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hartstark

1128
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 4: and Danielle Kramer.

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01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast

1130
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:36,440
Speaker 3: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1131
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief our, manipulation,

1132
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1133
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 3: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1134
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts