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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hey, there against the Rules listeners. I am Stephen Dubner

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Speaker 2: and I host Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the

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Speaker 2: hidden side of everything. A few months ago, I sat

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Speaker 2: down with Michael Lewis to talk about his latest book,

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Speaker 2: Going Infinite, The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon.

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Speaker 2: We talked about the story that's in the book, Sam Bankman, Freed,

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Speaker 2: and FTX, as well as people's reactions to the book.

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Speaker 2: Our episode is called why Are People So Mad At

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Speaker 2: Michael Lewis, So we wanted to share this episode with you.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. I feel like, as much as Sam

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Speaker 2: Bankman Freed has been in the center of a vortex,

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Speaker 2: that you're close to the senders. Oh can you just

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Speaker 2: tell me what your life has been like the past

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Speaker 2: couple months?

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Speaker 1: Surprisingly controversial, This material just landed in my lap, and

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Speaker 1: I really did think when I was writing it, I

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Speaker 1: never had more fun writing a book than I had

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Speaker 1: writing this one. I knew that some people were going

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Speaker 1: to be a little bit upset with the book, but

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Speaker 1: I thought basically it was going to be taken as

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Speaker 1: a thrill ride and it would just be a fun

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Speaker 1: read for everybody. What I wasn't prepared for was just

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Speaker 1: the sheer volume of the anger.

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Speaker 2: Michael Lewis is one of the most popular nonfiction authors

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Speaker 2: on the planet. His books include Liar's Poker, Moneyball, The

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Speaker 2: Big Short, Flash Boys, and Now Going Infinite. The Rise

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Speaker 2: and Fall of a New Tycoon. The tycoon in question

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Speaker 2: is Sam Bankman Freed, who was briefly everyone's favorite cryptocurrency billionaire,

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Speaker 2: and Michael Lewis rode shotgun for some of the rise

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Speaker 2: and most of the fall. The fall was fast and hard.

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Speaker 2: Was recently convicted of seven counts of fraud and conspiracy

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Speaker 2: in a New York courtroom. The controversy comes from people

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Speaker 2: who argue that Michael Lewis went soft on Bankman Freed

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Speaker 2: instead of lasting him as a crook and a cheat.

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Speaker 2: Here is how a New York Times review put it.

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Speaker 2: Lewis had, in the months leading up to the disaster,

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Speaker 2: a front row seat from which he could apparently see nothing.

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Speaker 1: It troubles me that people want to put Sam Bankman

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Speaker 1: Freed into a simple box and put him on a

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Speaker 1: shelf and not think too much more about this.

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Speaker 2: Why it troubles you?

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Speaker 1: Why Because he's so much more and this is so

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Speaker 1: much more interesting than that.

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Speaker 2: Today on Freakonomics Radio. Interesting is just the start of it.

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Speaker 2: Sam Bankman Freed bared all to Michael Lewis, and now

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Speaker 2: Michael Lewis bears all for us.

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Speaker 1: It was an unguarded ness. They was shocking.

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Speaker 2: It's the latest installment of the Freakonomics Radio book Club

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Speaker 2: and begins right now.

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Speaker 3: This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden

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Speaker 3: side of everything, with your host Stephen Dubner.

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Speaker 2: Here's how Michael Lewis begins his new book, Going Infinite.

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Speaker 2: This is from the audio version, with Lewis himself reading.

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Speaker 1: I first heard about Sam Bankman Freed at the end

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one from a friend who oddly enough

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Speaker 1: wanted me to help him figure out who he was.

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Speaker 1: My friend was about to close a deal with Sam

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Speaker 1: that would bind their fates through an exchange of shares

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Speaker 1: in each other's companies worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

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Speaker 1: My friend asked me if I could meet with Sam

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Speaker 1: and report back whatever I made of him. A few

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Speaker 1: weeks Sam was on my front porch in Berkeley, California.

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Speaker 1: He'd emerged from an uber in cargo shorts, a T

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Speaker 1: shirt limp white socks and ratty new Balance sneakers, which

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Speaker 1: I soon learned were basically the only clothes he owned.

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Speaker 1: We went for a walk, the only time in the

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Speaker 1: next two years I would ever see this person who

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Speaker 1: was always dressed for a hike actually go for one.

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Speaker 1: During our walk, I prodded him with questions, but after

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Speaker 1: a while I was mostly just listening. The stuff he

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Speaker 1: was telling me, all of which I should say here

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Speaker 1: turned out to be true, was incredible. By the end

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Speaker 1: of this walk, I was totally sold. I called my

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Speaker 1: friend and said something like, go for it, swap shares

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Speaker 1: with Sam Bankman Freed, do whatever he wants to do.

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Speaker 1: What could possibly go wrong?

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Speaker 2: As we now know, a lot of things went wrong.

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Speaker 2: Bankman Freed started and ran two firms, a cryptocurrency trading

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Speaker 2: firm called Alameter Research and a crypto exchange based in

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Speaker 2: the Bahamas called FTX. When FTX collapsed in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: Bankman Freed was charged with shuffling money between the two

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Speaker 2: firms and spending billions of dollars of customers deposits on

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Speaker 2: political contributions, celebrity marketing, and venture capital investments. He also

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Speaker 2: directed a lot of money toward the effective altruism movement.

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Speaker 2: The thing is, as you read Michael Lewis's book, it's

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Speaker 2: hard to separate Bankman Freed's illegal behaviors from the ones

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Speaker 2: that were just sloppy or weird. The book's publication was

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Speaker 2: timed to coincide with the first day of the Bankman

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Speaker 2: Freed trial, so heading into the trial, a lot of

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Speaker 2: people were asking Lewis what he thought.

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Speaker 1: I didn't actually say I don't think he did anything illegal,

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Speaker 1: or I'm not sure what I said was I don't

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Speaker 1: want to say, because I wanted to just tell the

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Speaker 1: story and let the reader decide what they think. The

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Speaker 1: book is filled with stuff that is essentially lawbreaking, but

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Speaker 1: I'm just telling it rather than telling you he broke

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Speaker 1: the law.

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Speaker 2: So do you think maybe that's why you've been somewhat

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Speaker 2: punished because you didn't act as judge and jury in

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Speaker 2: the book.

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Speaker 1: Yes, totally. But what I did, and I did very intentionally,

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Speaker 1: was I let the characters in the book investigate him

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Speaker 1: rather than me. I mean it was made to order

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Speaker 1: for narrative nonfiction. I had the chief operating officer of

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Speaker 1: the company, who'd been from the beginning, who realizes when

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Speaker 1: it all blows up. She doesn't know how this company operated,

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Speaker 1: and she wants to lynch him like she's helping the prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: She's trying to find evidence. So I just let her

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Speaker 1: do it.

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Speaker 2: So your books are generally very well reviewed among writers.

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Speaker 2: You're thought of as a writer's writer, so I'm not

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Speaker 2: used to seeing you get this kind of attention. Bad reviews,

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Speaker 2: features that call you into question. I'll read you a

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Speaker 2: couple of headlines from the Washington Post. Michael Lewis goes

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Speaker 2: close on Sam Bankman Freed, maybe too close. La Times.

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Speaker 2: What you won't learn from Michael Lewis's book on the

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Speaker 2: ft could fill another book another La Times piece in

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Speaker 2: Michael Lewis, Sam Bankman Fried found his last and most

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Speaker 2: willing victim. So the through line here is that critics

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Speaker 2: feel you still treat him too much like a hero

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Speaker 2: and at least like someone to be sympathized with.

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Speaker 1: Well, can I push back on this first? They are

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Speaker 1: also reviews by better writers in The New Yorker, in

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Speaker 1: the London Review of Books, in The Times Literary Supplement

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Speaker 1: that are very positive. There was no consensus in the reviews,

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Speaker 1: but the objections here were bewildering to me because the

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Speaker 1: idea that you're not supposed to get to know your subject.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there are people who have been presenting themselves

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Speaker 1: as authorities on Sam Bankman Freed, who's never met him.

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Speaker 1: It's really useful to get to know someone if you're

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Speaker 1: going to write about them. The idea that I was

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Speaker 1: somehow blinded to what he had done is preposterous. Because

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Speaker 1: I didn't start writing this thing until January.

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Speaker 2: Of the year.

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Speaker 1: You could see what it does. I think that people

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Speaker 1: are confusing painting him as he actually is was sympathizing

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Speaker 1: with him. Is it surprising that if you paint him

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Speaker 1: as he actually is you feel yourself disturbingly drawn to him?

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Speaker 1: Because this was the problem in the first place. This

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Speaker 1: is what led to the whole problem. If you don't

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Speaker 1: feel some attraction him, at least in the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the book, you're completely missing why this happened in the

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Speaker 1: first place. So to start out as, oh, this guy's

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Speaker 1: evil and everybody saw it and I saw it first,

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Speaker 1: it's false. Second, you miss the wonder of the story.

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Speaker 2: The story really begins in twenty seventeen, when Bankman Freed

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Speaker 2: quit his job at the trading firm Jane Street Capital

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Speaker 2: to start his own crypto trading firm, Alameda Research. As

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Speaker 2: Lewis's book makes clear, Alameda was from the beginning a mess.

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Speaker 2: Bankman Freed was very good at finding clever ways to

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Speaker 2: make money by trading cryptocurrencies at a time when most

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Speaker 2: mainstream trading firm still avoided crypto. But as a CEO

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Speaker 2: he was terrible, unfocused, unreliable, and totally uninterested in any

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Speaker 2: of the normal processes required to run a company or

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Speaker 2: to manage employees.

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Speaker 1: And after about three months, half of them hated Sam

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Speaker 1: and half of them thought he was a criminal.

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Speaker 2: Then he created the cryptocurrency trading platform FTX and became

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Speaker 2: CEO of it. He timed the crypto wave perfectly. By

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, Forbes put Sam Bankminfried's wealth at twenty

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Speaker 2: two and a half billion dollars, making him the world's

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Speaker 2: richest person under thirty At FTX, he was still a

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Speaker 2: bad CEO, but there was more to it than that.

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Speaker 1: What he did is he misappropriated funds. He told people

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Speaker 1: that their money was safe in one place, and he

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Speaker 1: was actually he was taking big gambles with it in

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Speaker 1: another place. What's odd about these gambles is that some

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Speaker 1: of them seemed to have worked out pretty well. Look,

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Speaker 1: I'm not a lawyer, and I was never all that

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Speaker 1: interested in the legal questions. I was more interested in

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Speaker 1: the moral questions. And he clearly, in my story, right

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Speaker 1: from the beginning, did something that was illegal. He didn't

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Speaker 1: ever separate the funds like he had his hedge fund,

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Speaker 1: alometor research or quant fund or whatever you want to

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Speaker 1: call it, and his exchange. And the way people got

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Speaker 1: their dollars onto the exchange was by sending it to

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Speaker 1: his quand fund, and it never left the Quand fund.

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Speaker 1: So he was essentially extending himself a free loan, using

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Speaker 1: customer to posits.

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Speaker 2: Right from the beginning, when you started hanging out with Sam,

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Speaker 2: he was already well known in some circles, maybe not

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Speaker 2: famous quite. And then your relationship extended, including to the

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Speaker 2: collapse of FTX, up to the trial and so on.

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Speaker 2: First of all, I want to hear about how the

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Speaker 2: reporting happened. I mean, we know a lot about you

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Speaker 2: as a reporter. You really believe in the old school

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Speaker 2: idea of just hanging out with a notebook. So I

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Speaker 2: want to hear about the relationship how it worked, and

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Speaker 2: especially how the relationship changed between you and him after

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Speaker 2: the collapse.

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Speaker 1: I didn't start out thinking I had a book or

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Speaker 1: what the book was. I start out thinking, this character

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Speaker 1: is really interesting and the situation's bizarre. He's gone from

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Speaker 1: zero to having twenty two billion dollars in eighteen months,

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Speaker 1: and the world is organizing itself around this pile of money.

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Speaker 1: I just want to watch. So that's how it starts.

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Speaker 1: I say to him, I just want to watch. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what there is here, and he says, fine,

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Speaker 1: come on down to Bahamas and here are the keys.

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Speaker 1: And so I spend a year doing that. At no

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Speaker 1: point did Sam becinfree ask me what I was doing.

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Speaker 1: At no point did he say I can't answer that question,

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Speaker 1: or why are you asking that question. It was an unguardedness.

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Speaker 1: They were shocking, and it wasn't just with me. I

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Speaker 1: think other reporters found that when they pushed a little bit,

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Speaker 1: doors just opened. There.

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Speaker 2: Some of the scenes in the book aren't just comically bizarre,

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Speaker 2: like when he's on a zoom call with Anna wind

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Speaker 2: Tour from Vogue magazine, who wants him to participate in

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Speaker 2: maybe fund the mech Gala the very high profile fashion

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Speaker 2: event at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, YEP.

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Speaker 2: In that instance, where are you Are you in the

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Speaker 2: room with him when he's on that call?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Where is that?

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Speaker 1: It's in the Beverly Hills Hilton Hotel.

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Speaker 2: And he's in La.

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Speaker 1: Why he's in La because he's gone to the super Bowl.

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Speaker 1: It was the day he was leaving to go back

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Speaker 1: to the Bahamas, and I was going to join him.

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Speaker 1: He says, I got a call. And I said who

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Speaker 1: you got a call with? He says, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Anna went tour And I said, oh really, And so

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Speaker 1: I sat off to one side and it was just

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Speaker 1: there was no one else in the room, just him

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Speaker 1: and I watched and I scribbled furiously notes as he spoke,

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Speaker 1: and realized in the moment that I was watching a

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Speaker 1: microcosm of Sam Bankmanfree's relationship with the outside world, especially

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Speaker 1: the outside world that organized hisself around piles of money.

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Speaker 2: And how would you describe that relationship.

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Speaker 1: Sycophanic towards him? There was a certain obliviousness on his

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Speaker 1: part to who these people were and why they wanted

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Speaker 1: what they wanted. He knew they wanted money, but beyond that,

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Speaker 1: he didn't pay that close attention to who they were.

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Speaker 1: He's trying to figure out just how much attention he

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Speaker 1: should pay to these people because they were constant. It

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Speaker 1: was like brunch with Shack and dinner with the head

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Speaker 1: of Gold and Sacks. A lot of this was completely

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Speaker 1: new to him.

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Speaker 2: So on this Anna Winter call, he agrees to what

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Speaker 2: she's asking for, to maybe sponsor attend something the met gala,

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Speaker 2: but then in the end he cancels on her at

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Speaker 2: the last minute.

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Speaker 1: Much more complicated than that, because he seems to agree

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Speaker 1: to everything she says, everything because he's actually not really listening.

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Speaker 1: He's playing a video game when he's talking to her.

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Speaker 1: He just turns her picture off when she's talking and

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Speaker 1: plays the video game. And only when he hears like,

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Speaker 1: oh Sam, what do you think of that? Does he

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Speaker 1: wake up, turn her picture back on, stall get the

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Speaker 1: question again and answer it. She would have understandably left

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Speaker 1: that conversation thinking that he was all in on the

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Speaker 1: met Gala, that he was going to go, maybe even

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Speaker 1: pay for it, But he hasn't actually said very much

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Speaker 1: except yep. And then when he's done, I ask him, like, really,

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Speaker 1: you're sitting here in your shorts and your cargo shorts

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Speaker 1: and your T shirt and your limp socks. You have

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Speaker 1: no interest in fashion. You don't even know who she is, Like,

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Speaker 1: you're really going to go to that? And he goes,

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Speaker 1: I never really thought about it. You know, by the

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Speaker 1: time I met him, he had figured out that the

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Speaker 1: best way to navigate the world of the rich and

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Speaker 1: famous was just to agree with everything they said. He

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Speaker 1: actually says this. He says, I've discovered it's like an

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Speaker 1: AI program, I discover people like you if you agree

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Speaker 1: with him, what would.

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Speaker 2: You say that Sam Bankman Freed is or was exceptionally

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Speaker 2: good at and exceptionally bad at.

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Speaker 1: He was exceptionally bad at understanding how people would feel

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Speaker 1: about his behavior, Like even now I think he doesn't

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Speaker 1: understand why people are so angry. When he moves from childhood,

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Speaker 1: which his child is completely isolated, it has no real

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Speaker 1: relationships with anybody, into adulthood and he starts to figure

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Speaker 1: out he wants to have relationships with people. He learns

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Speaker 1: how to kind of fake emotional his emotions and kind

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Speaker 1: of signaling his inner life so that people aren't so

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Speaker 1: freaked out by him. There's a sort of absence in

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Speaker 1: his imagination of what other people are feeling. What was

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Speaker 1: he exceptionally good at. He was interesting in his attempts

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Speaker 1: to quantify the unquantifiable. To me, what made him when

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Speaker 1: I first met him, such an interesting character was the

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Speaker 1: way he was moving through the world was so weird.

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Speaker 1: He was essentially moneyballing life. Everything was an expected value calculation,

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Speaker 1: and in some ways you can think of him as

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Speaker 1: having replaced principles with probabilities. There were no fixed rules.

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Speaker 1: Everything was We're going to try to measure the expected

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Speaker 1: value of this decision or that decision and do the

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Speaker 1: thing that's the highest expected value, and doing things like

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Speaker 1: making decisions about whether to get married and have children

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Speaker 1: this way.

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Speaker 2: Sam Bankman Freed grew up in California. Both his parents

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Speaker 2: were legal scholars at Stanford. Sam went to college at MIT,

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Speaker 2: where he studied physics and math. It was during college

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Speaker 2: that he met a young philosophy professor from Oxford named

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Speaker 2: Will mccaskell, who made him think about his life differently.

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Speaker 2: Here is a passage from going Infinite.

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Speaker 1: The argument that mcaskell put to Sam and a small

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Speaker 1: group of Harvard students in the fall of twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: went roughly as follows, you student at an elite university

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Speaker 1: will spend roughly eighty thousand hours of your life working.

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Speaker 1: If you're the sort of person who wants to do

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Speaker 1: good in the world, what is the most effective way

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Speaker 1: to spend those hours? Put bluntly, should you do good

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Speaker 1: or make money and pay other people to do good?

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Speaker 1: Was it better to become a doctor or a banker.

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Speaker 1: Mccaskell made a rough calculation of the number of lives

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Speaker 1: saved by a doctor working in a poor country where

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Speaker 1: lives were cheapest to save. Then he posed a question,

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Speaker 1: what if I become an altruistic banker pursuing a lucrative

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Speaker 1: career in order to donate my earnings. Even a mediocre

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Speaker 1: investment banker could expect sufficient lifetime earnings to pay for

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Speaker 1: several doctors in Africa, and thus would save several times

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Speaker 1: more lives than any one doctor.

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Speaker 2: Mccaskell and his associates called their movement effective altruism. My

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Speaker 2: Freakonomics friend and co author Steve Levitt interviewed mccaskell on

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Speaker 2: his podcast People I Mostly Admire in August of last year.

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Speaker 2: This was just a couple months before Sam Bankman freed

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Speaker 2: was arrested. Here is a piece of that interview with

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Speaker 2: mccaskell talking about the earning to Give model.

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Speaker 4: The biggest success story for learning to give is Sam

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Speaker 4: Bankman Freeds, who's now the relitious person in the world

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Speaker 4: under the age of thirty five, and he's publicly stated

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Speaker 4: he's giving away ninety nine percent of his wealth or more.

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Speaker 4: And as all ready i'mping up is giving. I think

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Speaker 4: part of what helps here is that we've just built

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Speaker 4: this community. It's much easier to live up to your

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Speaker 4: ideals if you've got a bunch of people around you

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Speaker 4: who will please you for living up to them. And

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Speaker 4: maybe you'll feel shunned or less welcome if you're claiming

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Speaker 4: that you want to do enormous amounts of good and

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Speaker 4: give enormous amounts but actually aren't.

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Speaker 2: When Bankman Freed heard mccaskell's pitch back in twenty twelve,

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Speaker 2: he was sold. He ultimately decided to make as much

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Speaker 2: money as possible. His personal goal was infinity dollars, thus

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Speaker 2: the title of Michael Lewis's book, and that's why after

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Speaker 2: he graduated from MIT, he took a job in New

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Speaker 2: York doing high frequency trading at Jane Street Capital.

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Speaker 1: The people on Wall Street who hired him would have

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Speaker 1: told you and that he was extremely good when you

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Speaker 1: gave him games to play that required these expected value calculations.

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Speaker 1: He was a wizard that he was really really good

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Speaker 1: at dealing with sort of messy, semi chaotic environments and

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Speaker 1: making the smart decisions in them. Here's an example. If

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Speaker 1: you asked him to sit down and play chess with

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Speaker 1: a grand master, he would have been okay, but not great.

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Speaker 1: But if you change the game it was speed chess,

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Speaker 1: and you had five seconds to make a move, and

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Speaker 1: every minute you change the rules of the game so

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Speaker 1: that all of a sudden the bishops have to be

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Speaker 1: pawns and the pawns have to be bishops. He might

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Speaker 1: have beaten the grand master in that kind of environment

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Speaker 1: where it's almost impossible to know what the right answer is,

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00:19:32,316 --> 00:19:34,716
Speaker 1: but you can make some quick judgments and act on them.

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Speaker 1: He was especially good.

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Speaker 2: When you say he replaced principles with probabilities. It strikes

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Speaker 2: me that that's a good way of describing the fear

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Speaker 2: that's going on right now of what AI is going

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Speaker 2: to do.

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Speaker 1: That's funny you say this When I was thinking about

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Speaker 1: what this story was a parable for when I was

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Speaker 1: writing it, one of the things that kept popping in

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Speaker 1: my head was a parable for AI. It was like

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Speaker 1: a foreshadowing of what happened when you let an artificial

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Speaker 1: intelligence loosen the world with a goal, telling it what

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Speaker 1: to do, but not telling it how to do it right.

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Speaker 1: So you tell it to get a reservation at your

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Speaker 1: favorite restaurant tomorrow night, and it go out and finds

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00:20:10,236 --> 00:20:12,276
Speaker 1: that the restaurants fully booked and starts to kill the

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Speaker 1: people who have reservations to get you a table. That's

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Speaker 1: Sam Bagmunfreed. That's Sam Bagman Freed. He's programmed him sell

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Speaker 1: himself to make as much money as possible to then

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Speaker 1: spend to to defray existential risk to humanity without any

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Speaker 1: instructions about what he can't do in order to do that.

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Speaker 1: I felt, at any given moment when he's making his decisions,

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Speaker 1: he was always on pretty shaky ground in his calculations, Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the probability of AI wiping us

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Speaker 1: all out, or some pandemic wiping us all out, or

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Speaker 1: an asteroid hitting the earth, but neither is he And

380
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Speaker 1: yet he's putting very confidently numbers on these things and

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Speaker 1: acting on these numbers.

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Speaker 2: Many of the people Bankman Freed recruited to work at

383
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Speaker 2: Alameda and FTX also considered themselves effective altruists or eas

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Speaker 2: and they talked about the expected value of their actions

385
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Speaker 2: the same way he did.

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Speaker 1: It was quirky, and it was weird watching people think

387
00:21:09,676 --> 00:21:12,436
Speaker 1: they could be precise about things that you just couldn't know.

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Speaker 1: But I actually quite liked the fact that there were

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Speaker 1: people who were worrying about these things. And to their credit,

390
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Speaker 1: right the effective altruists get to the fear of AI

391
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Speaker 1: before all of us. They weren't all wrong. They aren't

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Speaker 1: all wrong. My god, we may look back and say

393
00:21:25,916 --> 00:21:26,596
Speaker 1: they were all right.

394
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Speaker 2: I'm curious what impressions you walked away with of the

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00:21:30,996 --> 00:21:34,916
Speaker 2: effective altruist crowd, especially Will mccaskell, the ringleader. I'm curious

396
00:21:35,356 --> 00:21:39,236
Speaker 2: whether you think he and the core movement are sincere.

397
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Speaker 2: Are they a little bit grifty? Are they both?

398
00:21:42,836 --> 00:21:46,116
Speaker 1: I think they're completely sincere. But on the other hand,

399
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Speaker 1: the best con men believe their own con but I

400
00:21:48,556 --> 00:21:51,476
Speaker 1: don't think of them as con men at all. They're academics.

401
00:21:51,956 --> 00:21:56,236
Speaker 1: There's a kind of blinder quality to them. The whole movement.

402
00:21:56,516 --> 00:21:59,196
Speaker 1: It has this cult like quality in that it attracts

403
00:21:59,196 --> 00:22:01,556
Speaker 1: a certain kind of person and then they get their

404
00:22:01,556 --> 00:22:04,476
Speaker 1: meaning of life from the thing. But it's a kind

405
00:22:04,476 --> 00:22:08,236
Speaker 1: of anti cult cult in that unlike most cults, well

406
00:22:08,396 --> 00:22:10,916
Speaker 1: what is it's a cult? Reason right, It's a cult

407
00:22:10,916 --> 00:22:13,716
Speaker 1: where if you have a better argument inside the cult,

408
00:22:14,316 --> 00:22:17,196
Speaker 1: you win and the cult changes. So it's a little

409
00:22:17,196 --> 00:22:21,356
Speaker 1: different from most cults. And it has had this capacity

410
00:22:21,396 --> 00:22:24,636
Speaker 1: to kind of phase change in a way that cults

411
00:22:24,916 --> 00:22:27,996
Speaker 1: normally don't. They start up trying to save you poor

412
00:22:28,076 --> 00:22:31,196
Speaker 1: children in Africa, and they end up worrying about human

413
00:22:31,236 --> 00:22:33,876
Speaker 1: beings the trillion years from now living on Mars. I

414
00:22:33,916 --> 00:22:37,636
Speaker 1: think of them as completely sincere, generally pretty sweet natured,

415
00:22:38,356 --> 00:22:42,796
Speaker 1: devoted to logic and reason and argument, and somehow it

416
00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:44,836
Speaker 1: has the capacity still to run off the rails.

417
00:22:45,436 --> 00:22:48,196
Speaker 2: Did they respect Sam or did they just love him

418
00:22:48,196 --> 00:22:48,796
Speaker 2: for his money?

419
00:22:49,196 --> 00:22:51,716
Speaker 1: I think they felt about Sam the way Sam's parents

420
00:22:51,716 --> 00:22:54,996
Speaker 1: felt about Sam. They were scared both for and of him,

421
00:22:55,596 --> 00:23:00,196
Speaker 1: and they were interestingly, even in good times, a little

422
00:23:00,236 --> 00:23:03,356
Speaker 1: worried about him being too closely identified with the movement,

423
00:23:03,396 --> 00:23:05,356
Speaker 1: because he became kind of the face of the movement.

424
00:23:05,756 --> 00:23:08,236
Speaker 1: I think they smelled the existential risk to the movement.

425
00:23:08,636 --> 00:23:10,676
Speaker 1: He became too important to them.

426
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Speaker 2: How bad has his downfall been for them?

427
00:23:14,116 --> 00:23:16,956
Speaker 1: I don't know how. With the recruiting numbers in the

428
00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:19,836
Speaker 1: Stanford and Princeton and Harvard and MIT math and physics

429
00:23:19,876 --> 00:23:22,716
Speaker 1: departments are looking like these days can have been good?

430
00:23:23,476 --> 00:23:26,516
Speaker 1: Can have been good? My guess is it causes a

431
00:23:26,516 --> 00:23:28,876
Speaker 1: bit of a retrenchment in how they think about what

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00:23:28,916 --> 00:23:32,076
Speaker 1: they're doing. I think that back in the day, when

433
00:23:32,076 --> 00:23:35,676
Speaker 1: it was just being more intellectually rigorous about what you

434
00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:39,716
Speaker 1: did with charitable dollars, it was pretty unobjectionable. Where I

435
00:23:39,716 --> 00:23:42,156
Speaker 1: find the whole thing jumps the shark is the earn

436
00:23:42,236 --> 00:23:45,036
Speaker 1: to give idea. I'm not quite sure why I feel

437
00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:47,476
Speaker 1: this way, but the whole idea that to stop trying

438
00:23:47,476 --> 00:23:50,756
Speaker 1: to do good yourself and maximize the dollars you make

439
00:23:50,796 --> 00:23:53,316
Speaker 1: and pay someone else to do good with them. There's

440
00:23:53,356 --> 00:23:58,876
Speaker 1: something about divorcing charitable acts from human sympathy that feels

441
00:23:58,876 --> 00:23:59,676
Speaker 1: a little weird to me.

442
00:24:00,396 --> 00:24:03,316
Speaker 2: There's this concept. I think it's mostly in psychology, but

443
00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:06,076
Speaker 2: others use it called moral licensing. It's this idea that

444
00:24:06,076 --> 00:24:09,556
Speaker 2: if you're doing something great for people or the world,

445
00:24:09,636 --> 00:24:12,476
Speaker 2: in one corner of your life, you give yourself licensed

446
00:24:12,476 --> 00:24:15,596
Speaker 2: to lie or cheat or steal whatever. In another corner.

447
00:24:16,476 --> 00:24:19,836
Speaker 2: Do you think that he felt that because he's making

448
00:24:19,876 --> 00:24:22,316
Speaker 2: money in the service of effective altruism, which is going

449
00:24:22,396 --> 00:24:26,716
Speaker 2: to use money to solve potentially existential problems, that that

450
00:24:26,916 --> 00:24:29,556
Speaker 2: just trumped everything else, And that if he needed to

451
00:24:29,596 --> 00:24:33,556
Speaker 2: be deceitful or withhold information, etc. That he's still kind

452
00:24:33,556 --> 00:24:35,276
Speaker 2: of in the plus column because of the big one.

453
00:24:35,916 --> 00:24:39,516
Speaker 1: Yes, I think so he wouldn't put it that way.

454
00:24:40,116 --> 00:24:42,396
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think how he would put it, but

455
00:24:42,556 --> 00:24:45,316
Speaker 1: the effect is the same. This is the whole business

456
00:24:45,316 --> 00:24:49,716
Speaker 1: of replacing principles with probabilities. There are no firm, fixed

457
00:24:49,876 --> 00:24:54,436
Speaker 1: rules that he will obey. So why does he allow

458
00:24:54,516 --> 00:24:58,156
Speaker 1: himself to move through the world without obeying firm fixed rules.

459
00:24:58,676 --> 00:25:03,876
Speaker 1: It's because he thinks this larger goal justifies it. He

460
00:25:03,916 --> 00:25:07,436
Speaker 1: figures out as a kid or as pretty young person,

461
00:25:08,196 --> 00:25:11,036
Speaker 1: that he has the ability to do harm because he

462
00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:14,516
Speaker 1: doesn't feel what other people feel. It's a bit like

463
00:25:14,636 --> 00:25:17,196
Speaker 1: if you didn't feel pain, you're more likely like put

464
00:25:17,196 --> 00:25:19,716
Speaker 1: your hand on the stove and burn it off. He's

465
00:25:19,796 --> 00:25:24,036
Speaker 1: lacking some essential human equipment that would constrain.

466
00:25:23,676 --> 00:25:25,676
Speaker 2: His behavior, and he knows it.

467
00:25:25,836 --> 00:25:29,996
Speaker 1: And he knows it, and so when he discovers a rule,

468
00:25:30,076 --> 00:25:32,836
Speaker 1: he can give himself our goal he can give himself,

469
00:25:32,916 --> 00:25:37,156
Speaker 1: and the goal seems noble, lower the existential risk to humanity,

470
00:25:37,236 --> 00:25:40,076
Speaker 1: save human lives. In a way, He's trying to put

471
00:25:40,156 --> 00:25:43,876
Speaker 1: some constraint on the harms he creates. But I do

472
00:25:43,916 --> 00:25:46,836
Speaker 1: think moral licensing will do as an explanation.

473
00:25:47,276 --> 00:25:50,476
Speaker 2: I'm curious to know what the effective altruists make of

474
00:25:50,516 --> 00:25:54,396
Speaker 2: someone like Bill Gates. He's spent the past ten fifteen

475
00:25:54,436 --> 00:25:57,276
Speaker 2: years spending billions of dollars trying to do what looks

476
00:25:57,276 --> 00:25:59,476
Speaker 2: to me like a version of what they want to do,

477
00:25:59,556 --> 00:26:02,356
Speaker 2: and there have been people throughout history trying to do

478
00:26:02,436 --> 00:26:05,596
Speaker 2: similar things. What do you see as the biggest distinction

479
00:26:05,796 --> 00:26:08,636
Speaker 2: between Gates and the effective altruists.

480
00:26:08,716 --> 00:26:11,836
Speaker 1: Degree of fanaticism and rigor. I mean, I think Gates

481
00:26:11,876 --> 00:26:13,716
Speaker 1: does a lot of things other than just try to

482
00:26:13,756 --> 00:26:17,316
Speaker 1: maximize the lives saved with his dollars. But I think

483
00:26:17,316 --> 00:26:20,116
Speaker 1: the eas would tell you that Gates is the closest

484
00:26:20,116 --> 00:26:22,796
Speaker 1: thing to an EA who's not an EA. They're probably

485
00:26:22,836 --> 00:26:25,076
Speaker 1: dollars that Bill Gates have given to museums that would

486
00:26:25,076 --> 00:26:28,636
Speaker 1: disturb them because they're a dollar given to a museum

487
00:26:28,796 --> 00:26:31,076
Speaker 1: is a dollar wasted in their minds.

488
00:26:31,956 --> 00:26:35,716
Speaker 2: Coming up after the break, another way to waste dollars.

489
00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:38,556
Speaker 1: If you give Donald Trump five billion dollars not to

490
00:26:38,636 --> 00:26:40,316
Speaker 1: run for president, what do you think he's going to do?

491
00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:43,876
Speaker 2: I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back.

492
00:27:02,516 --> 00:27:06,516
Speaker 2: Sam Bankman Free didn't buy a yacht or have expensive

493
00:27:06,556 --> 00:27:09,716
Speaker 2: tastes on most of the normal dimensions, but he did

494
00:27:09,716 --> 00:27:12,756
Speaker 2: spend a lot of money in the political arena. Some

495
00:27:12,836 --> 00:27:17,316
Speaker 2: of this went toward influencing cryptocurrency regulation in the US,

496
00:27:17,436 --> 00:27:21,476
Speaker 2: which would have let his FTX Exchange expand its business,

497
00:27:22,396 --> 00:27:25,836
Speaker 2: but his political spending went in other directions too. Here

498
00:27:25,916 --> 00:27:29,276
Speaker 2: again is Michael Lewis, author of Going Infinite.

499
00:27:29,716 --> 00:27:33,676
Speaker 1: So he spends ten million dollars in an Oregon Democratic

500
00:27:33,716 --> 00:27:37,716
Speaker 1: primary on a candidate named Carrick Flynn. Sam identifies him

501
00:27:37,716 --> 00:27:41,196
Speaker 1: because he is an effective altruist who's expert in pandemic

502
00:27:41,236 --> 00:27:44,996
Speaker 1: prevention without paying any attention to his viability as a candidate,

503
00:27:45,036 --> 00:27:49,156
Speaker 1: and Carrick Flynn has, among other traits, fear of public speaking, deeply,

504
00:27:49,316 --> 00:27:53,636
Speaker 1: deeply insecure, and upset when people say something critical about him.

505
00:27:53,996 --> 00:27:56,436
Speaker 1: Lots of things that would be red flags in a

506
00:27:56,436 --> 00:27:57,396
Speaker 1: political candidate.

507
00:27:57,876 --> 00:27:58,756
Speaker 2: Was he from Oregon?

508
00:27:58,796 --> 00:28:01,316
Speaker 1: At least he was a carbon bagger. I think he'd

509
00:28:01,316 --> 00:28:03,876
Speaker 1: spent time there, but he'd basically been living in Washington

510
00:28:03,916 --> 00:28:07,036
Speaker 1: for a long stretch. And Carrick Flynn ends up winning

511
00:28:07,236 --> 00:28:09,436
Speaker 1: I don't know, twenty percent of the vote. That's one

512
00:28:09,476 --> 00:28:11,476
Speaker 1: bucket of Sam Beckmer free spending is trying to get

513
00:28:11,476 --> 00:28:16,036
Speaker 1: candidates into Congress or encourage actually elected representatives to take

514
00:28:16,076 --> 00:28:18,196
Speaker 1: more interest in things like pandemic prevention.

515
00:28:18,676 --> 00:28:20,236
Speaker 2: How would you rank on a scale of zerre to

516
00:28:20,236 --> 00:28:23,276
Speaker 2: attend how much Sam actually cared about that issue?

517
00:28:23,636 --> 00:28:25,636
Speaker 1: A lot nine and a half.

518
00:28:26,036 --> 00:28:29,116
Speaker 2: And this was happening during COVID already, correct.

519
00:28:29,316 --> 00:28:32,156
Speaker 1: Well, it just seemed like the one thing that's obvious

520
00:28:32,196 --> 00:28:35,276
Speaker 1: to do is to build some equivalent of the National

521
00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:40,516
Speaker 1: Weather Service for disease, global pathogen prediction and detection. And

522
00:28:40,596 --> 00:28:42,316
Speaker 1: he was interested, not only interested in that, he was

523
00:28:42,356 --> 00:28:44,596
Speaker 1: actually putting money into it. And I thought that's interesting.

524
00:28:45,476 --> 00:28:49,236
Speaker 1: Alongside that Sam had decided all by himself, and much

525
00:28:49,276 --> 00:28:52,836
Speaker 1: to the chagrin of other effective altruists, that Donald Trump

526
00:28:52,916 --> 00:28:56,676
Speaker 1: presented a threat to democracy. Democracy was the most likely

527
00:28:56,796 --> 00:29:01,076
Speaker 1: tool for addressing existential risk to humanity. So therefore Donald

528
00:29:01,076 --> 00:29:03,916
Speaker 1: Trump needed to be stopped, and so he poured lots

529
00:29:03,956 --> 00:29:07,276
Speaker 1: of money into anti Trump's stuff, and he did it.

530
00:29:07,316 --> 00:29:10,876
Speaker 1: I think mainly through Mitch McConnell influenced packs and the

531
00:29:10,996 --> 00:29:16,396
Speaker 1: idea there was to find, especially in Republican primaries, candidates

532
00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:19,756
Speaker 1: who were not real Trumpers. Everybody was seeming to be

533
00:29:19,756 --> 00:29:23,076
Speaker 1: a Trumper, and McConnell had distinguished between the people who

534
00:29:23,116 --> 00:29:25,316
Speaker 1: really thought the election was rigged from the people who

535
00:29:25,396 --> 00:29:28,556
Speaker 1: just say it, and the latter were maybe more likely

536
00:29:28,596 --> 00:29:29,796
Speaker 1: to govern responsibly.

537
00:29:30,196 --> 00:29:33,316
Speaker 2: And what's your sense of efficacy in that realm, if

538
00:29:33,356 --> 00:29:33,916
Speaker 2: any at all?

539
00:29:34,476 --> 00:29:37,516
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I don't know how influential the

540
00:29:37,596 --> 00:29:39,796
Speaker 1: money was, though I think it was some tens of

541
00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:44,076
Speaker 1: millions of dollars. But I did have a glimpse of

542
00:29:44,156 --> 00:29:48,556
Speaker 1: Sam bankman Fried's style meddling. He's going to gamey meddling

543
00:29:48,796 --> 00:29:52,196
Speaker 1: in this process. At the moment that we had this conversation,

544
00:29:52,436 --> 00:29:56,756
Speaker 1: he was taking an interest in the Missouri Senate primary.

545
00:29:57,236 --> 00:30:00,596
Speaker 1: There were two candidates at that time who seemed especially viable.

546
00:30:01,076 --> 00:30:05,316
Speaker 1: Both were named Eric Eric Schmidt and Eric Britons. Eric

547
00:30:05,356 --> 00:30:08,916
Speaker 1: Britons was a full throated Trumper. Eric Smith seemed to

548
00:30:08,916 --> 00:30:12,316
Speaker 1: be taking it, at least so said McConnell's people. And

549
00:30:12,636 --> 00:30:16,516
Speaker 1: Sam told me this isn't a private conversation. That his

550
00:30:16,836 --> 00:30:20,156
Speaker 1: political operation had been having conversations with the Trump political

551
00:30:20,196 --> 00:30:23,156
Speaker 1: operation because they were afraid Trump was going to jump

552
00:30:23,156 --> 00:30:26,116
Speaker 1: into this race and endorse Eric Britons, the real Trumper,

553
00:30:26,396 --> 00:30:28,756
Speaker 1: and that that would actually put Britons over the top.

554
00:30:29,316 --> 00:30:31,116
Speaker 1: So they were trying to think of ways to stop

555
00:30:31,196 --> 00:30:34,436
Speaker 1: this from happening, and they came up with this idea

556
00:30:34,476 --> 00:30:36,996
Speaker 1: that they would tell Trump that just come out and

557
00:30:36,996 --> 00:30:40,516
Speaker 1: say he was for Eric, without specifying which Eric, because

558
00:30:40,596 --> 00:30:43,316
Speaker 1: both the candidates were named Eric, and that the argument

559
00:30:43,356 --> 00:30:45,556
Speaker 1: to Trump was one it would be funny and be

560
00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:47,996
Speaker 1: a meme and everybody would talk about it. And the

561
00:30:48,076 --> 00:30:50,636
Speaker 1: second was he didn't care which Eric won. All he

562
00:30:50,716 --> 00:30:53,436
Speaker 1: cared was that he backed the winner. So Sam's telling

563
00:30:53,436 --> 00:30:55,116
Speaker 1: me this and I've said, how g real could this be?

564
00:30:55,516 --> 00:30:57,436
Speaker 1: In the same breath he's telling me that he's offering

565
00:30:57,476 --> 00:30:59,756
Speaker 1: Donald Trump five billion dollars not to run for president,

566
00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:03,036
Speaker 1: And two days later, Trump comes out on True Social

567
00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:05,636
Speaker 1: and says I'm for Eric, and indeed it was a meme,

568
00:31:05,676 --> 00:31:08,436
Speaker 1: and indeed everybody thought it was funny, and indeed diffused

569
00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:11,116
Speaker 1: Trump's in luence, and indeed Eric Schmidt won.

570
00:31:11,596 --> 00:31:15,356
Speaker 2: Now you glossed over the plan to pay Trump directly

571
00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:18,036
Speaker 2: five billion dollars to not run again in twenty twenty four.

572
00:31:18,276 --> 00:31:19,196
Speaker 2: How real was that?

573
00:31:19,796 --> 00:31:21,916
Speaker 1: I don't know. I could tell you where it was

574
00:31:22,076 --> 00:31:24,516
Speaker 1: when I talked to him about it. It's funny in

575
00:31:24,556 --> 00:31:28,156
Speaker 1: retrospect that he was worried it was illegal. The question

576
00:31:28,356 --> 00:31:31,196
Speaker 1: was is it legal to pay Donald anybody not to

577
00:31:31,276 --> 00:31:32,116
Speaker 1: run for president?

578
00:31:32,516 --> 00:31:33,996
Speaker 2: Did you ever learn the answer that question.

579
00:31:34,516 --> 00:31:36,636
Speaker 1: I haven't learned the answer to that question. Is it

580
00:31:36,676 --> 00:31:39,916
Speaker 1: a bribe? Is it? But the practical point, and this

581
00:31:39,956 --> 00:31:42,076
Speaker 1: is the point I actually made to Sam, I said,

582
00:31:42,076 --> 00:31:45,556
Speaker 1: this is insane. If you give Donald Trump five billion

583
00:31:45,596 --> 00:31:47,356
Speaker 1: dollars not to run for president, what do you think

584
00:31:47,356 --> 00:31:49,636
Speaker 1: he's going to do? You know what he's going to do.

585
00:31:49,676 --> 00:31:51,396
Speaker 1: He's going to take the five billion dollars and he's

586
00:31:51,396 --> 00:31:53,516
Speaker 1: going to run for president. This is not like an

587
00:31:53,596 --> 00:31:57,716
Speaker 1: enforceable contract. And it never I know that they had

588
00:31:57,716 --> 00:31:58,676
Speaker 1: the conversations.

589
00:31:59,196 --> 00:32:01,356
Speaker 2: Do you know at what level of the Trump organization

590
00:32:01,436 --> 00:32:02,796
Speaker 2: or campaign he was speaking with.

591
00:32:03,316 --> 00:32:05,516
Speaker 1: If I had to guess, we got to qualify that.

592
00:32:05,556 --> 00:32:09,956
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that the CEO of FTX Digital Markets was

593
00:32:09,956 --> 00:32:13,996
Speaker 1: a fellow named Ryan Salem, and Ryan Salem was Republican

594
00:32:14,156 --> 00:32:18,156
Speaker 1: and apparently very friendly with Donald Trump Junior, and I

595
00:32:18,196 --> 00:32:21,556
Speaker 1: had the impression that the conversation was happening between those two,

596
00:32:22,396 --> 00:32:25,556
Speaker 1: but I don't know if that's true. Whatever channel it

597
00:32:25,676 --> 00:32:27,796
Speaker 1: was was the same channel that got Trump to say

598
00:32:27,796 --> 00:32:31,036
Speaker 1: I'm for Eric, so we know the channel exists. The

599
00:32:31,116 --> 00:32:34,036
Speaker 1: question is could that ever have happened in real life?

600
00:32:34,476 --> 00:32:35,996
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure it could ever have happened in

601
00:32:36,036 --> 00:32:37,756
Speaker 1: real life. But it was a really good example of

602
00:32:37,756 --> 00:32:41,476
Speaker 1: Sam Bekman Freed addressing a problem. It's like pretty original thought,

603
00:32:41,556 --> 00:32:42,476
Speaker 1: pay him not to run?

604
00:32:44,916 --> 00:32:48,596
Speaker 2: So would it have been illegal for Sam Bekman Free

605
00:32:48,636 --> 00:32:51,516
Speaker 2: to pay Donald Trump five billion dollars to not run

606
00:32:51,676 --> 00:32:55,676
Speaker 2: for president? The UK has a law that forbids, payment

607
00:32:55,836 --> 00:32:58,996
Speaker 2: or promise of payment to get a candidate to withdraw

608
00:32:59,156 --> 00:33:01,996
Speaker 2: from an election. In the US, it is less clear.

609
00:33:02,116 --> 00:33:04,916
Speaker 2: People have been sent to prison for paying candidates to

610
00:33:05,036 --> 00:33:08,876
Speaker 2: drop out, but in those cases the crimes were violations

611
00:33:08,916 --> 00:33:14,276
Speaker 2: of campaign finance disclosure requirements, not the payments themselves. It

612
00:33:14,396 --> 00:33:17,596
Speaker 2: is also against US law to bribe a public official

613
00:33:17,676 --> 00:33:21,196
Speaker 2: to influence a quote official act, but it's not clear

614
00:33:21,236 --> 00:33:25,316
Speaker 2: that running for office counts as an official act. Whatever

615
00:33:25,356 --> 00:33:28,436
Speaker 2: the case, it's pretty clear that Sam Bankman Freed didn't

616
00:33:28,476 --> 00:33:32,156
Speaker 2: have the chance to pay Donald Trump five billion dollars

617
00:33:32,196 --> 00:33:35,596
Speaker 2: not to run. It's also worth noting that his mother,

618
00:33:35,836 --> 00:33:38,876
Speaker 2: Barbara Freed, may have inspired this idea.

619
00:33:39,796 --> 00:33:42,876
Speaker 1: Before Sam got rich. She had built a political operation.

620
00:33:43,276 --> 00:33:45,756
Speaker 1: They were trying to find smarter ways to give money away,

621
00:33:45,956 --> 00:33:49,396
Speaker 1: and it was pretty explicitly anti Trump. So Sam's first

622
00:33:49,396 --> 00:33:50,596
Speaker 1: donations are through her.

623
00:33:51,076 --> 00:33:54,796
Speaker 2: So You've said a couple things about Sam's parents that

624
00:33:54,876 --> 00:33:58,156
Speaker 2: I find really interesting. They're in the book very you know,

625
00:33:58,196 --> 00:34:01,916
Speaker 2: they're kind of often there but below the surface. Can

626
00:34:01,956 --> 00:34:05,716
Speaker 2: you just draw out that relationship and tell me, you know,

627
00:34:05,876 --> 00:34:09,636
Speaker 2: which directions the emotions flow these days, and what those

628
00:34:09,676 --> 00:34:10,476
Speaker 2: emotions may be.

629
00:34:11,196 --> 00:34:14,076
Speaker 1: I think one of the unusual things about the relationship

630
00:34:14,116 --> 00:34:17,356
Speaker 1: between the parents and the child was the parents pretty

631
00:34:17,436 --> 00:34:20,076
Speaker 1: quickly gave up on the idea he was a child.

632
00:34:20,316 --> 00:34:23,676
Speaker 1: I remember Sam's mom, Barbara telling me that he was

633
00:34:23,796 --> 00:34:25,876
Speaker 1: I don't know, eight years old and she had just

634
00:34:25,916 --> 00:34:29,196
Speaker 1: written some abstruse paper for some academic journal, and he

635
00:34:29,276 --> 00:34:31,716
Speaker 1: asks her what it's about, and she sort of humors him,

636
00:34:31,796 --> 00:34:34,316
Speaker 1: but he pushes and presses, and she actually tells him

637
00:34:34,316 --> 00:34:37,556
Speaker 1: what it's about, and she says his responses were smarter

638
00:34:37,676 --> 00:34:40,356
Speaker 1: than the responses she got from the peer review. Couple

639
00:34:40,436 --> 00:34:45,356
Speaker 1: with they made some brief pass at doing childish things

640
00:34:45,396 --> 00:34:47,916
Speaker 1: with him. She took him to an amusement park and

641
00:34:47,956 --> 00:34:49,996
Speaker 1: she was kind of hauling him from ride to ride

642
00:34:50,276 --> 00:34:52,236
Speaker 1: and at some point she sees he's looking at her

643
00:34:52,236 --> 00:34:54,916
Speaker 1: and just observing her, and he says, are you having

644
00:34:54,956 --> 00:34:55,436
Speaker 1: fun yet?

645
00:34:55,476 --> 00:34:55,756
Speaker 2: Mom?

646
00:34:56,276 --> 00:34:59,156
Speaker 1: They both had the story in their head again even

647
00:34:59,196 --> 00:35:02,356
Speaker 1: in good times, back when Sam was a billionaire, that

648
00:35:02,436 --> 00:35:05,476
Speaker 1: he just he wasn't suited to childhood. He didn't connect

649
00:35:05,476 --> 00:35:08,196
Speaker 1: with other people. What scared them, I think was he

650
00:35:08,196 --> 00:35:10,676
Speaker 1: didn't fit into the world. They were really worried he

651
00:35:10,676 --> 00:35:12,756
Speaker 1: would find no place for himself in the world. They

652
00:35:12,796 --> 00:35:14,916
Speaker 1: thought his little brother was going to be fine and

653
00:35:15,196 --> 00:35:18,036
Speaker 1: you know, might be a shining star. They thought Sam

654
00:35:18,116 --> 00:35:21,916
Speaker 1: was never going to like work out because he was

655
00:35:21,956 --> 00:35:26,316
Speaker 1: so socially maladjusted and indifferent. It was indifferent, like indifferent

656
00:35:26,356 --> 00:35:30,796
Speaker 1: to any kind of social interaction. They were then bewildered

657
00:35:31,356 --> 00:35:34,196
Speaker 1: when this child of theirs, is discovered by Jane Street

658
00:35:34,196 --> 00:35:37,476
Speaker 1: and high frequency Trading as God's gift to trading, and

659
00:35:37,596 --> 00:35:39,996
Speaker 1: all of a sudden is endowed with a new identity

660
00:35:40,276 --> 00:35:44,916
Speaker 1: I made for the new financial markets, and then further

661
00:35:45,116 --> 00:35:49,556
Speaker 1: perplexed when he quits that and becomes cryptobillionaire. Like they

662
00:35:49,556 --> 00:35:53,556
Speaker 1: just find it completely implausible, just preposterous that he was

663
00:35:53,596 --> 00:35:56,836
Speaker 1: in the position he was in, but accepted, right, you know,

664
00:35:57,076 --> 00:36:01,156
Speaker 1: that's what happened to Sam now. I mean, obviously they're devastated.

665
00:36:01,476 --> 00:36:04,716
Speaker 1: If I had to guess, they have slightly different views

666
00:36:04,716 --> 00:36:07,996
Speaker 1: of the situation, But the mother is more vocal about

667
00:36:07,996 --> 00:36:13,516
Speaker 1: her views, and I bet right now that she views

668
00:36:13,836 --> 00:36:17,516
Speaker 1: Sam as chiefly a victim. That she thinks he's completely

669
00:36:17,516 --> 00:36:19,796
Speaker 1: innocent of all wrongdoing, and she hasn't asked him what

670
00:36:19,836 --> 00:36:22,356
Speaker 1: he did, so she doesn't know. She hasn't really pushed

671
00:36:22,396 --> 00:36:26,156
Speaker 1: him on it. The truth of the relationship. And this

672
00:36:26,236 --> 00:36:29,476
Speaker 1: is what I think the media generally in the commentary

673
00:36:29,716 --> 00:36:33,596
Speaker 1: gets wrong, is that it, from Sam's point of view,

674
00:36:33,716 --> 00:36:36,756
Speaker 1: was not that close. If you talk to the person

675
00:36:36,836 --> 00:36:39,996
Speaker 1: who ran Sam's scheduling, she'd say the hardest part of

676
00:36:40,036 --> 00:36:42,276
Speaker 1: my week is when one of his parents calls him,

677
00:36:42,276 --> 00:36:44,276
Speaker 1: what's fifteen minutes with him? And I have to lie

678
00:36:44,316 --> 00:36:46,476
Speaker 1: to him because I know Sam doesn't want to do it.

679
00:36:46,956 --> 00:36:51,236
Speaker 1: That Sam kept them really at arm's length and didn't

680
00:36:51,316 --> 00:36:55,476
Speaker 1: welcome their intrusion into his life. And the exception being

681
00:36:55,556 --> 00:36:57,116
Speaker 1: is when he gets in trouble, like when he gets

682
00:36:57,156 --> 00:36:59,196
Speaker 1: in trouble and there's no one else there. But I

683
00:36:59,196 --> 00:37:02,996
Speaker 1: think it probably drives him crazy that first he's back

684
00:37:02,996 --> 00:37:05,956
Speaker 1: in his parents' home under house arrest, and now the

685
00:37:05,996 --> 00:37:08,036
Speaker 1: only people who visited him in jail are his parents.

686
00:37:08,436 --> 00:37:11,956
Speaker 1: I don't think he welcomes parroting. He's never engaged with

687
00:37:12,036 --> 00:37:16,116
Speaker 1: that relationship, so they're sort of imposing their parenting on

688
00:37:16,276 --> 00:37:20,476
Speaker 1: him still and our heartbroken because he's their child and

689
00:37:20,476 --> 00:37:21,316
Speaker 1: they love him.

690
00:37:21,556 --> 00:37:24,716
Speaker 2: A listener wrote in to ask when do Sam Bankmin

691
00:37:24,756 --> 00:37:26,796
Speaker 2: Freed's parents get indicted.

692
00:37:27,436 --> 00:37:29,276
Speaker 1: I don't think the parents had a whole lot of

693
00:37:29,276 --> 00:37:32,196
Speaker 1: insight into the In fact, I know they didn't. I

694
00:37:32,196 --> 00:37:35,356
Speaker 1: would go from an interview with Sam or spending the

695
00:37:35,476 --> 00:37:39,756
Speaker 1: day at the FTX headquarters, occasionally having dinner with the parents,

696
00:37:40,116 --> 00:37:42,716
Speaker 1: and they were desperate for any kind of information about

697
00:37:42,756 --> 00:37:44,876
Speaker 1: what was going on because they had no idea, like

698
00:37:44,996 --> 00:37:48,756
Speaker 1: no idea. What looks probably more damning than it is

699
00:37:48,876 --> 00:37:51,716
Speaker 1: but in retrospect, is that he bought this house in

700
00:37:51,716 --> 00:37:54,236
Speaker 1: the Bahamas and put it in their name. But they were,

701
00:37:54,356 --> 00:37:57,276
Speaker 1: like I promise you, they were only vaguely aware that

702
00:37:57,316 --> 00:37:59,836
Speaker 1: they owned it. They didn't furnish it, they didn't care

703
00:37:59,876 --> 00:38:02,876
Speaker 1: about it, and they gave it back right after it

704
00:38:02,916 --> 00:38:04,636
Speaker 1: all fell apart that they couldn't get rid of it

705
00:38:04,676 --> 00:38:07,356
Speaker 1: fast enough. What the dad was doing, he was mainly

706
00:38:07,356 --> 00:38:10,236
Speaker 1: involved in the philanthropy. He was doing things like working

707
00:38:10,236 --> 00:38:13,116
Speaker 1: with the Bahamas government to make sure that people who

708
00:38:13,116 --> 00:38:16,436
Speaker 1: were in the psychiatric hospital had more contact with human

709
00:38:16,476 --> 00:38:19,516
Speaker 1: beings outside the psychiatric He was really working full time

710
00:38:19,796 --> 00:38:22,156
Speaker 1: as a do gooder. But I don't think either one

711
00:38:22,236 --> 00:38:31,636
Speaker 1: of them are meaningfully evolved in the business.

712
00:38:28,636 --> 00:38:32,516
Speaker 2: We should say. Joe Bankman and Barbara Fried currently face

713
00:38:32,636 --> 00:38:35,356
Speaker 2: a civil lawsuit alleging that they are not as innocent

714
00:38:35,396 --> 00:38:38,796
Speaker 2: as Michael Lewis claims. The suit argues that they quote

715
00:38:38,876 --> 00:38:42,876
Speaker 2: exploited their access and influence within the FTX enterprise to

716
00:38:42,996 --> 00:38:48,036
Speaker 2: enrich themselves. In any case, I did wonder what might

717
00:38:48,076 --> 00:38:50,676
Speaker 2: have happened if one of Sam Bankman Fried's parents had

718
00:38:50,756 --> 00:38:54,876
Speaker 2: been more involved in FTX, or if not them, some

719
00:38:55,076 --> 00:38:59,076
Speaker 2: other potentially competent people who might have served as the

720
00:38:59,116 --> 00:39:03,716
Speaker 2: adults in the room. Bankmin Freed had big plans for

721
00:39:03,996 --> 00:39:07,996
Speaker 2: FTX and for himself. I asked Michael Lewis, if with

722
00:39:08,156 --> 00:39:12,276
Speaker 2: the right help, Bankman Freed could have achieved those plans

723
00:39:12,436 --> 00:39:14,196
Speaker 2: and avoided the law breaking.

724
00:39:14,796 --> 00:39:18,996
Speaker 1: Yes. What stops it from happening right from the get

725
00:39:19,036 --> 00:39:23,196
Speaker 1: go is Sam Bankman Freed's hostility to grown ups, including

726
00:39:23,196 --> 00:39:26,116
Speaker 1: his parents. He took the view that basically everybody over

727
00:39:26,156 --> 00:39:28,036
Speaker 1: the age of thirty five was a waste of time.

728
00:39:28,556 --> 00:39:31,636
Speaker 1: And it's a very funny view he had. He's sort

729
00:39:31,636 --> 00:39:34,556
Speaker 1: of in his mind in his judgment of people, he

730
00:39:34,676 --> 00:39:38,676
Speaker 1: sort of punishes them for having any experience. He prefers

731
00:39:38,756 --> 00:39:41,876
Speaker 1: people without experience who are just thinking about problems from

732
00:39:41,916 --> 00:39:44,556
Speaker 1: the ground up, because he thinks of experience as kind

733
00:39:44,596 --> 00:39:48,436
Speaker 1: of almost polluting their judgment. And what older people have,

734
00:39:48,476 --> 00:39:51,436
Speaker 1: they have experience. But yes, if you twist the dial

735
00:39:51,476 --> 00:39:55,076
Speaker 1: on Sam Bangner Freed's risk tolerance just a little bit, yes,

736
00:39:55,156 --> 00:39:57,036
Speaker 1: there's like an army of accountants who are there at

737
00:39:57,036 --> 00:39:59,076
Speaker 1: the beginning and the money is put in the right place,

738
00:39:59,116 --> 00:40:01,956
Speaker 1: and so he's never tempted to use it, and he

739
00:40:02,036 --> 00:40:04,836
Speaker 1: was pursuing a strategy which was probably viable, which was

740
00:40:04,876 --> 00:40:08,956
Speaker 1: to be the legit crypto exchange, acquiring licenses left and right.

741
00:40:09,116 --> 00:40:11,356
Speaker 1: They were growing fast. There was a billion dollars in

742
00:40:11,396 --> 00:40:13,076
Speaker 1: revenue even the year they collapsed.

743
00:40:14,716 --> 00:40:18,116
Speaker 2: One of the few adults in Sam bankman Fried's life

744
00:40:18,156 --> 00:40:20,756
Speaker 2: was a man named George Lerner. He had been Bankman

745
00:40:20,796 --> 00:40:27,516
Speaker 2: Freed's psychiatrist in California. Here's a passage from Going Infinite.

746
00:40:27,556 --> 00:40:30,316
Speaker 1: Sam had long since decided that any discussions about his

747
00:40:30,316 --> 00:40:34,756
Speaker 1: inner life and its consequences for others were futile. The

748
00:40:34,836 --> 00:40:38,676
Speaker 1: social stuff was basically unsolvable. He said, he didn't need

749
00:40:38,756 --> 00:40:41,516
Speaker 1: a therapist to deal with his problems, though he did

750
00:40:41,596 --> 00:40:45,436
Speaker 1: need someone who could prescribe his medications. The problems that

751
00:40:45,516 --> 00:40:49,876
Speaker 1: interested Sam were other people's problems. He soon figured out

752
00:40:49,916 --> 00:40:52,076
Speaker 1: that George could be extremely useful with these.

753
00:40:52,676 --> 00:40:56,716
Speaker 2: And so bankman Fried hired George Lerner and imported him

754
00:40:56,756 --> 00:40:59,796
Speaker 2: to the Bahamas, where he took on a new role

755
00:40:59,996 --> 00:41:03,196
Speaker 2: as a sort of internal consultant at FTX.

756
00:41:03,636 --> 00:41:05,796
Speaker 1: A few months into his new job, George has seen

757
00:41:05,876 --> 00:41:10,076
Speaker 1: one hundred of ftx's three hundred something employees he enjoyed

758
00:41:10,076 --> 00:41:13,156
Speaker 1: maybe the single best view of its corporate architecture, with

759
00:41:13,236 --> 00:41:18,076
Speaker 1: a clarity not available to its investors, its customers, its employees,

760
00:41:18,596 --> 00:41:22,036
Speaker 1: and possibly the person who had created it. In the end,

761
00:41:22,476 --> 00:41:25,516
Speaker 1: George drew up the only internal org chart ever made

762
00:41:25,516 --> 00:41:29,356
Speaker 1: of Sam's sprawling creation. By the time he was done,

763
00:41:29,636 --> 00:41:34,156
Speaker 1: he discovered many interesting things. Twenty four different people thought

764
00:41:34,196 --> 00:41:37,956
Speaker 1: they were reporting directly to Sam. For example, this group

765
00:41:37,996 --> 00:41:41,956
Speaker 1: did not include the chief financial officer because FTX did

766
00:41:41,956 --> 00:41:45,156
Speaker 1: not have a chief financial officer. There was no chief

767
00:41:45,236 --> 00:41:48,876
Speaker 1: risk officer or head of human resources because they had

768
00:41:48,916 --> 00:41:53,476
Speaker 1: none of that either. Then there was Caroline Ellison. Caroline

769
00:41:53,556 --> 00:41:56,116
Speaker 1: was apparently alone in charge of the twenty two traders

770
00:41:56,116 --> 00:41:58,476
Speaker 1: and developers working inside Alometer Research.

771
00:42:01,156 --> 00:42:04,636
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about George Lerner. I realized

772
00:42:04,676 --> 00:42:08,436
Speaker 2: that his medical license wasn't valid in the Bahamas, so

773
00:42:08,476 --> 00:42:11,556
Speaker 2: he wasn't at officially as a psychiatrist when he was

774
00:42:12,356 --> 00:42:16,036
Speaker 2: talking to all these people, and therefore these conversations may

775
00:42:16,076 --> 00:42:20,756
Speaker 2: not have been protected under doctor patient confidentiality. Still, I

776
00:42:20,796 --> 00:42:23,476
Speaker 2: am curious why he was willing and able to tell

777
00:42:23,556 --> 00:42:26,916
Speaker 2: you so much about these private conversations.

778
00:42:27,196 --> 00:42:29,436
Speaker 1: I would be a very poor journalist if I ask

779
00:42:29,556 --> 00:42:31,476
Speaker 1: people why they were talking to me. But I will

780
00:42:31,516 --> 00:42:33,836
Speaker 1: tell you this that I knew I had a goal

781
00:42:33,956 --> 00:42:38,156
Speaker 1: mine because he's very smart. He was very insightful. His

782
00:42:38,236 --> 00:42:42,156
Speaker 1: first effective altruist patient was Sam's little brother, then Caroline Ellison,

783
00:42:42,436 --> 00:42:44,676
Speaker 1: and only after a while did Sam become a patient.

784
00:42:44,996 --> 00:42:47,276
Speaker 1: But by the time I meet him, he is serving

785
00:42:47,316 --> 00:42:51,396
Speaker 1: as essentially the psychiatrist to the entire company in the Bahamas.

786
00:42:51,436 --> 00:42:53,476
Speaker 1: They're rolling through his office, laying on his couch and

787
00:42:53,476 --> 00:42:56,476
Speaker 1: complaining about the company. The Bahamas didn't give him a license,

788
00:42:56,516 --> 00:42:59,516
Speaker 1: so at that point he really was just a whatever

789
00:42:59,596 --> 00:43:03,356
Speaker 1: professional coach, and so he wasn't bound by any laws

790
00:43:03,396 --> 00:43:06,636
Speaker 1: of confidentiality. But I never asked him.

791
00:43:07,676 --> 00:43:11,836
Speaker 2: Caroline Ellison, who by twenty twenty two was running Alameda,

792
00:43:12,276 --> 00:43:15,956
Speaker 2: was also Sam Bankman Fried's on again, off again girlfriend.

793
00:43:16,836 --> 00:43:21,196
Speaker 2: During the collapse of FTX, they were off and barely speaking.

794
00:43:22,156 --> 00:43:26,076
Speaker 2: It's tempting to wonder how things might have unwound differently

795
00:43:26,236 --> 00:43:29,276
Speaker 2: if either a they had been speaking at the time,

796
00:43:29,676 --> 00:43:33,676
Speaker 2: or b if Sam Bankman Freed had built an operation

797
00:43:33,796 --> 00:43:38,316
Speaker 2: that didn't revolve around himself and just three other people

798
00:43:38,356 --> 00:43:43,476
Speaker 2: who were the closest approximation he had to friends Caroline Ellison,

799
00:43:43,596 --> 00:43:47,676
Speaker 2: Gary Wang, and Nishad Singh, all three of whom, by

800
00:43:47,756 --> 00:43:52,356
Speaker 2: the way, would testify against him at trial. It took

801
00:43:52,476 --> 00:43:55,596
Speaker 2: the jury just four hours to convict him and seven

802
00:43:55,636 --> 00:44:00,196
Speaker 2: counts of fraud and conspiracy. After the break, Michael Lewis

803
00:44:00,316 --> 00:44:04,276
Speaker 2: attended the trial. It was how to put this, It

804
00:44:04,396 --> 00:44:08,876
Speaker 2: was no moneyball. I'm Stephen Dubner. This is freakonomics. Radio

805
00:44:09,196 --> 00:44:32,156
Speaker 2: be right back. The trial of Sam Bankman Freed began

806
00:44:32,276 --> 00:44:35,796
Speaker 2: on October third in the US District Court in Lower Manhattan.

807
00:44:36,436 --> 00:44:39,396
Speaker 2: The lead up to the trial felt a bit like

808
00:44:39,556 --> 00:44:43,796
Speaker 2: the lead up to a Super Bowl, two teams ready

809
00:44:43,876 --> 00:44:50,436
Speaker 2: for a tense and exciting battle. Instead, it was a blowout.

810
00:44:51,116 --> 00:44:55,916
Speaker 2: Every day it got a bit less exciting, a bit sadder.

811
00:44:56,756 --> 00:45:01,236
Speaker 2: Bankman Freed's closest colleagues turned against him. The jury heard

812
00:45:01,516 --> 00:45:05,556
Speaker 2: a steady stream of obviously incriminating evidence, and when Bankman

813
00:45:05,596 --> 00:45:09,916
Speaker 2: Freed himself took the stand, there just wasn't much there there.

814
00:45:10,516 --> 00:45:13,956
Speaker 2: He frequently said he couldn't recall saying things that others

815
00:45:13,996 --> 00:45:16,476
Speaker 2: had said he said, and that he couldn't recall doing

816
00:45:16,596 --> 00:45:19,516
Speaker 2: things that wouldn't seem at all hard to recall. If

817
00:45:19,556 --> 00:45:23,556
Speaker 2: you were the person doing them. Michael Lewis attended this

818
00:45:23,636 --> 00:45:24,836
Speaker 2: portion of the trial.

819
00:45:25,356 --> 00:45:27,876
Speaker 1: I knew that Sam Bangnerfried marched to the beat of

820
00:45:27,916 --> 00:45:30,876
Speaker 1: his own drum, that he was his own peculiar person,

821
00:45:30,916 --> 00:45:33,716
Speaker 1: with his own peculiar motives for doing these peculiar things

822
00:45:33,716 --> 00:45:35,076
Speaker 1: that he did, and this would have made him such

823
00:45:35,076 --> 00:45:38,596
Speaker 1: an interesting character to write about. I thought, if he

824
00:45:38,676 --> 00:45:41,796
Speaker 1: was going to take the witness stand, he would have

825
00:45:41,916 --> 00:45:46,836
Speaker 1: some strategy, some reason for doing it, and it was

826
00:45:47,196 --> 00:45:48,356
Speaker 1: that was a big mistake.

827
00:45:48,916 --> 00:45:52,556
Speaker 2: So you were not called as a witness in the trial, which,

828
00:45:52,676 --> 00:45:54,916
Speaker 2: I'll be honest surprised me a little bit. Did it

829
00:45:54,916 --> 00:45:55,476
Speaker 2: surprise you.

830
00:45:56,116 --> 00:45:59,356
Speaker 1: My sense is that lawyers are risk averse and they

831
00:45:59,396 --> 00:46:01,676
Speaker 1: don't like to put on the witness stand people they

832
00:46:01,676 --> 00:46:02,876
Speaker 1: can't completely control.

833
00:46:03,316 --> 00:46:05,036
Speaker 2: And why can't you be controlled? Michael?

834
00:46:05,356 --> 00:46:07,956
Speaker 1: The problem is the prosecutors asked me some questions and

835
00:46:07,956 --> 00:46:09,956
Speaker 1: I'd say some things that were pretty damning about Sam,

836
00:46:09,996 --> 00:46:12,076
Speaker 1: but it would open me up to the defense and

837
00:46:12,076 --> 00:46:14,356
Speaker 1: they'd say, I don't know, when you met him, did

838
00:46:14,356 --> 00:46:16,316
Speaker 1: you think he was dishonest? No, I didn't think he

839
00:46:16,356 --> 00:46:18,956
Speaker 1: was dishonest. When men him, I thought he was curiously forthright,

840
00:46:19,276 --> 00:46:22,036
Speaker 1: you know whatever, it was, and I saw this with

841
00:46:22,116 --> 00:46:25,796
Speaker 1: another witness. The prosecution to teed up a person whose

842
00:46:25,796 --> 00:46:29,036
Speaker 1: title was head of product. His name was Ramnik Aurora,

843
00:46:29,396 --> 00:46:32,916
Speaker 1: who was actually Sam's right hand man in making lots

844
00:46:32,956 --> 00:46:35,076
Speaker 1: of the venture capital investments. He didn't have anything to

845
00:46:35,116 --> 00:46:37,276
Speaker 1: do with the product, but he had had his plane ticket,

846
00:46:37,316 --> 00:46:39,596
Speaker 1: he had his hotel room. He thought he was testifying

847
00:46:39,716 --> 00:46:43,236
Speaker 1: right after Nashad Sing and they canceled him last minute.

848
00:46:43,676 --> 00:46:45,756
Speaker 1: And I think I could be wrong about this. It's

849
00:46:45,756 --> 00:46:47,716
Speaker 1: possible to cancel me because he just decided they didn't

850
00:46:47,756 --> 00:46:50,116
Speaker 1: need him. But I think between the time they teed

851
00:46:50,196 --> 00:46:52,196
Speaker 1: him up and the time they called him, they read

852
00:46:52,236 --> 00:46:55,076
Speaker 1: my book and they saw that he presented the same

853
00:46:55,156 --> 00:46:58,156
Speaker 1: kind of problem I would present, because yes, he could

854
00:46:58,156 --> 00:47:00,556
Speaker 1: tell you about how Sam continued to spend lots of

855
00:47:00,596 --> 00:47:02,836
Speaker 1: money even after he should have been aware that he

856
00:47:02,876 --> 00:47:05,876
Speaker 1: was spending the customer's money. But there's this moment in

857
00:47:05,916 --> 00:47:07,916
Speaker 1: the book that I think is very revealing. And they

858
00:47:07,916 --> 00:47:10,916
Speaker 1: didn't get any attention to the trial. When it all

859
00:47:10,956 --> 00:47:15,036
Speaker 1: blows up in early November of last year and Caroline

860
00:47:15,036 --> 00:47:17,876
Speaker 1: Ellison and Sam Bankman Freedom and a Shad Singer and

861
00:47:17,916 --> 00:47:20,156
Speaker 1: Gary Wang or interroom trying to figure out how much

862
00:47:20,196 --> 00:47:23,356
Speaker 1: money they have to give customers their deposits back, and

863
00:47:23,516 --> 00:47:26,156
Speaker 1: they call Romnick over, and Romick walks into the room

864
00:47:26,356 --> 00:47:28,756
Speaker 1: and he says, they are literally like trying to figure

865
00:47:28,756 --> 00:47:31,276
Speaker 1: out which exchanges they have accounts on where do they

866
00:47:31,316 --> 00:47:34,796
Speaker 1: have bank accounts? And Roomick's phone rings and it's from

867
00:47:34,876 --> 00:47:37,676
Speaker 1: a bank delf Tech in Bahamas, and the guy is

868
00:47:37,716 --> 00:47:39,356
Speaker 1: on the other a line says to Romnick. He says,

869
00:47:39,356 --> 00:47:40,956
Speaker 1: I see you guys in trouble. You should know you

870
00:47:40,996 --> 00:47:42,956
Speaker 1: have you have an account here with three hundred million

871
00:47:42,996 --> 00:47:45,356
Speaker 1: dollars if you need it. And Ramick says this to them,

872
00:47:45,396 --> 00:47:47,636
Speaker 1: and none of them have any idea of it, and

873
00:47:47,716 --> 00:47:50,756
Speaker 1: the pure chaos of the thing again, it's like a

874
00:47:50,796 --> 00:47:53,276
Speaker 1: witness who has when you've been that close. You have

875
00:47:53,316 --> 00:47:55,476
Speaker 1: evidence for both sides, and neither side wants you to

876
00:47:55,516 --> 00:47:56,396
Speaker 1: hear both sides.

877
00:47:56,836 --> 00:47:59,756
Speaker 2: So as you're describing, it strikes me that what you

878
00:47:59,956 --> 00:48:04,516
Speaker 2: have is just a different category of information than the

879
00:48:04,636 --> 00:48:06,796
Speaker 2: kind of information that is useful at a trial for

880
00:48:06,876 --> 00:48:10,916
Speaker 2: either side. Let's say, yes, that's true, but it also

881
00:48:11,516 --> 00:48:13,836
Speaker 2: it just makes me wonder what it's like for you.

882
00:48:13,836 --> 00:48:17,156
Speaker 2: You were sitting here watching a live criminal trial that

883
00:48:17,316 --> 00:48:20,716
Speaker 2: is essentially based on a book that you wrote. We've

884
00:48:20,756 --> 00:48:22,316
Speaker 2: all heard what it's like to write a book and

885
00:48:22,316 --> 00:48:25,516
Speaker 2: then see the movie based on it, and you've had

886
00:48:25,556 --> 00:48:28,716
Speaker 2: more experience with that than most people. And the expectation

887
00:48:29,476 --> 00:48:32,236
Speaker 2: is that the movie will, of course be very different

888
00:48:32,236 --> 00:48:36,356
Speaker 2: from the book. But this was differently different. So what

889
00:48:36,516 --> 00:48:37,556
Speaker 2: was the experience like?

890
00:48:37,876 --> 00:48:40,476
Speaker 1: It's funny you draw that analogy, because it was similar

891
00:48:40,556 --> 00:48:43,396
Speaker 1: in this way. When someone takes one of your books

892
00:48:43,396 --> 00:48:46,036
Speaker 1: and turns it into a movie, they compress it, they

893
00:48:46,076 --> 00:48:48,196
Speaker 1: distort it, and they compress it, and you just hope

894
00:48:48,196 --> 00:48:50,596
Speaker 1: they don't lose the spirit of it. Right, They're turning

895
00:48:50,636 --> 00:48:53,156
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand words into an eight thousand words script,

896
00:48:53,196 --> 00:48:55,556
Speaker 1: so they're bound to leave all kinds of stuff out,

897
00:48:55,676 --> 00:48:57,836
Speaker 1: and you hope when you watch it feels the way

898
00:48:58,676 --> 00:49:00,316
Speaker 1: you felt when you wrote the Thing.

899
00:49:00,836 --> 00:49:03,116
Speaker 2: And the movies that have been made from your books,

900
00:49:03,156 --> 00:49:06,636
Speaker 2: like The Big Short, Moneyball, The blind Side, I gather

901
00:49:07,236 --> 00:49:10,476
Speaker 2: that from your perspective, those were successfully done.

902
00:49:10,556 --> 00:49:13,356
Speaker 1: Yes, I felt in each case that more or less

903
00:49:13,356 --> 00:49:15,996
Speaker 1: the spirit of the thing was preserved and the movies

904
00:49:16,036 --> 00:49:19,076
Speaker 1: weren't boring. In the trial, I felt the spirit of

905
00:49:19,116 --> 00:49:21,956
Speaker 1: the thing was more distorted than the movies distorted. And

906
00:49:22,116 --> 00:49:25,716
Speaker 1: also the thing that was striking in the trial. We

907
00:49:25,836 --> 00:49:28,276
Speaker 1: take it for granted in our legal system, these plea

908
00:49:28,316 --> 00:49:32,116
Speaker 1: bargaining agreements, they're essentially corrupt. I mean, they're very useful

909
00:49:32,196 --> 00:49:34,956
Speaker 1: tools for prosecutors, but essentially the prosecutors are able to

910
00:49:34,996 --> 00:49:37,756
Speaker 1: pay people with years of their lives to say stuff

911
00:49:37,756 --> 00:49:40,876
Speaker 1: on a witness stand so long as it's not falsifiable,

912
00:49:41,316 --> 00:49:43,756
Speaker 1: if it serves the purpose of the prosecutors, they get

913
00:49:43,756 --> 00:49:44,596
Speaker 1: rewarded for it.

914
00:49:44,996 --> 00:49:46,116
Speaker 2: What's it for instance? Here?

915
00:49:46,716 --> 00:49:50,116
Speaker 1: For instance here is it was a pretty common pattern

916
00:49:50,196 --> 00:49:54,196
Speaker 1: in the three principal witnesses was how they felt at

917
00:49:54,236 --> 00:50:00,516
Speaker 1: the time. Nishad saying was telling a story about how

918
00:50:00,636 --> 00:50:04,596
Speaker 1: dark and miserable he was a year ago, and that

919
00:50:04,676 --> 00:50:08,156
Speaker 1: he was aware that they were doing wrong things. And

920
00:50:08,436 --> 00:50:11,236
Speaker 1: I interview this an up and down. He was giddy

921
00:50:11,276 --> 00:50:13,396
Speaker 1: with how things were going, and he would say things

922
00:50:13,476 --> 00:50:16,116
Speaker 1: to me. I mean, in the book, he says, back

923
00:50:16,156 --> 00:50:18,756
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen, when he's twenty one years old and

924
00:50:18,876 --> 00:50:21,836
Speaker 1: joining Sam Banknerfried in the crypto trading firm, he says,

925
00:50:21,876 --> 00:50:24,516
Speaker 1: how quickly he figures out that the law isn't what's

926
00:50:24,516 --> 00:50:26,116
Speaker 1: written in the laws which you can get away with

927
00:50:26,156 --> 00:50:28,236
Speaker 1: and which you can't get away with. He's saying things

928
00:50:28,236 --> 00:50:30,436
Speaker 1: to me that you don't say if you're feeling at

929
00:50:30,476 --> 00:50:33,156
Speaker 1: all worried that people are going to suspect you're doing

930
00:50:33,236 --> 00:50:37,676
Speaker 1: a bad thing. So they were able to misremember their

931
00:50:37,716 --> 00:50:41,036
Speaker 1: states of mind, and the states of mind they described

932
00:50:41,116 --> 00:50:44,956
Speaker 1: themselves having been in were alien to anybody who observed

933
00:50:44,956 --> 00:50:45,796
Speaker 1: them at the time.

934
00:50:46,236 --> 00:50:49,396
Speaker 2: Were you really surprised that there is that trade off

935
00:50:49,436 --> 00:50:51,236
Speaker 2: for sort of bribing as you're describing it.

936
00:50:51,636 --> 00:50:53,996
Speaker 1: Well, I knew it existed, right, It was just watching

937
00:50:54,036 --> 00:50:56,356
Speaker 1: the effects of it. You know, we get our legal

938
00:50:56,396 --> 00:50:58,556
Speaker 1: system from the English, and the English are shocked we

939
00:50:58,596 --> 00:51:02,036
Speaker 1: allow this. It's not obvious that we should. It was

940
00:51:02,116 --> 00:51:04,756
Speaker 1: viewed as corrupt until not that long ago. It's now

941
00:51:04,796 --> 00:51:08,116
Speaker 1: just bewoven into the texture of our criminal justice process.

942
00:51:08,516 --> 00:51:10,276
Speaker 1: If I was sitting in the jury box, I would

943
00:51:10,316 --> 00:51:13,796
Speaker 1: certainly have convicted. But when you back away from it

944
00:51:13,996 --> 00:51:18,156
Speaker 1: and you see just how uneven the playing field is

945
00:51:18,676 --> 00:51:22,876
Speaker 1: between the prosecutors in the defense. The prosecutors have unlimited resources.

946
00:51:22,996 --> 00:51:26,876
Speaker 1: They have power to scare people into testifying. They getting

947
00:51:26,876 --> 00:51:29,556
Speaker 1: cut plea deals with people. You see why the stats

948
00:51:29,596 --> 00:51:30,796
Speaker 1: are as shocking as they are.

949
00:51:31,196 --> 00:51:33,316
Speaker 2: You mean the conviction stats.

950
00:51:33,356 --> 00:51:36,196
Speaker 1: Last year, ninety nine point six percent of the people

951
00:51:36,356 --> 00:51:39,956
Speaker 1: who were charged with federal crimes either pled guilty or convicted.

952
00:51:40,396 --> 00:51:45,076
Speaker 2: So why did bankman Fried testify himself when so many

953
00:51:45,116 --> 00:51:47,836
Speaker 2: of his answers were essentially I don't recall.

954
00:51:48,156 --> 00:51:51,116
Speaker 1: It's a great question, go back even further, knowing what

955
00:51:51,196 --> 00:51:55,076
Speaker 1: he supposedly knew. Why did he stay in the Bahamas

956
00:51:55,076 --> 00:51:56,676
Speaker 1: when it all fell apart? If you just gone to

957
00:51:56,716 --> 00:51:58,916
Speaker 1: Dubai still be there, did.

958
00:51:58,756 --> 00:52:00,076
Speaker 2: You ask him that why he stayed?

959
00:52:00,516 --> 00:52:02,276
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I can tell you what

960
00:52:02,316 --> 00:52:04,636
Speaker 1: he said. He said because I didn't do anything wrong.

961
00:52:05,116 --> 00:52:06,876
Speaker 1: I mean, if you wanted the answer to all those

962
00:52:06,956 --> 00:52:09,636
Speaker 1: questions is because he thinks he did nothing wrong. He

963
00:52:09,676 --> 00:52:13,236
Speaker 1: thinks that his error was not paying attention. That's the

964
00:52:13,316 --> 00:52:16,876
Speaker 1: story he's told himself. The prosecutors, I think, were maybe

965
00:52:16,916 --> 00:52:19,236
Speaker 1: a little surprised by just how well their case went,

966
00:52:19,716 --> 00:52:22,156
Speaker 1: because there was in the summing up when they were

967
00:52:22,156 --> 00:52:24,476
Speaker 1: making the argument to the jury about why they needed

968
00:52:24,476 --> 00:52:26,876
Speaker 1: to convict they said, even if you believe this guy,

969
00:52:27,516 --> 00:52:29,836
Speaker 1: believe that he just wasn't paying attention to this eight

970
00:52:29,836 --> 00:52:33,156
Speaker 1: billion dollars that he took from the customers and used

971
00:52:33,156 --> 00:52:36,636
Speaker 1: in his private fund. There's this idea called conscious avoidance,

972
00:52:37,196 --> 00:52:39,156
Speaker 1: and that doesn't let you off a hook if you

973
00:52:39,236 --> 00:52:42,876
Speaker 1: just didn't pay attention. But I think Sam, I think

974
00:52:43,036 --> 00:52:45,516
Speaker 1: the simple way to explain all his behavior is his

975
00:52:45,556 --> 00:52:48,036
Speaker 1: animate in his own mind, that he didn't do anything wrong.

976
00:52:48,436 --> 00:52:53,076
Speaker 2: I'm curious to know what you learned, if anything, at

977
00:52:53,076 --> 00:52:55,596
Speaker 2: the trial, but especially I want to know what you

978
00:52:56,596 --> 00:52:58,556
Speaker 2: thought you might learn at the trial, and whether you

979
00:52:58,596 --> 00:52:59,236
Speaker 2: did or didn't.

980
00:52:59,756 --> 00:53:02,196
Speaker 1: There were a couple of things that I really wanted

981
00:53:02,236 --> 00:53:05,436
Speaker 1: to know that in retrospect, maybe the trial wasn't the

982
00:53:05,436 --> 00:53:06,836
Speaker 1: best way to get it. But if he can't get

983
00:53:06,876 --> 00:53:08,196
Speaker 1: at it through the trial, I don't know where you're

984
00:53:08,196 --> 00:53:10,556
Speaker 1: going to get at it through. I really did want

985
00:53:10,596 --> 00:53:15,756
Speaker 1: to know the moment when the sum total of liquid

986
00:53:15,796 --> 00:53:21,036
Speaker 1: assets in Sam's world combination Alameda and FTX was less

987
00:53:21,116 --> 00:53:24,236
Speaker 1: than the customer deposits, Like when did he go negative?

988
00:53:24,276 --> 00:53:26,156
Speaker 2: There is that a knowable fact.

989
00:53:26,596 --> 00:53:29,756
Speaker 1: It could be figured out. The bankruptcy people might know already.

990
00:53:30,316 --> 00:53:34,796
Speaker 1: Wind should have everyone had alarm bells ringing in their heads,

991
00:53:35,676 --> 00:53:37,876
Speaker 1: because I didn't see any sign of alarm bells ringing

992
00:53:37,916 --> 00:53:40,556
Speaker 1: in anybody's head until it blew up. There's another thing.

993
00:53:41,156 --> 00:53:43,916
Speaker 1: When it all fell apart, I was doing this crude

994
00:53:43,956 --> 00:53:46,956
Speaker 1: exercise of figuring out all the money that had come

995
00:53:46,956 --> 00:53:49,076
Speaker 1: into Sam's world and all the money that had left

996
00:53:49,116 --> 00:53:52,196
Speaker 1: it in the form of customer deposits or venture capital

997
00:53:52,236 --> 00:53:57,276
Speaker 1: investments or expenditure on political campaigns. And to this day

998
00:53:57,316 --> 00:54:00,156
Speaker 1: this still seems to me several billion dollars that I

999
00:54:00,196 --> 00:54:02,836
Speaker 1: can't figure out where they went. There's been some hand

1000
00:54:02,876 --> 00:54:06,756
Speaker 1: wavy explanations about how it might have been lost. I'm

1001
00:54:06,796 --> 00:54:08,796
Speaker 1: not sure it has been lost. It's possible. The bankruptcy

1002
00:54:08,796 --> 00:54:11,716
Speaker 1: people still finding literally finding money the way you find

1003
00:54:11,756 --> 00:54:12,676
Speaker 1: easter eggs.

1004
00:54:14,916 --> 00:54:18,916
Speaker 2: These bankruptcy people are being led by John Ray, who

1005
00:54:18,996 --> 00:54:22,516
Speaker 2: was installed as the emergency CEO of FTX by the

1006
00:54:22,596 --> 00:54:26,316
Speaker 2: law firm Sullivan and Cromwell. We had Ray on the

1007
00:54:26,316 --> 00:54:29,716
Speaker 2: show earlier this year talking about the singular challenge of

1008
00:54:29,796 --> 00:54:34,076
Speaker 2: taking over FTX. That was episode five sixty. We called it,

1009
00:54:34,236 --> 00:54:37,996
Speaker 2: is this the worst job in Corporate America? Or maybe

1010
00:54:38,116 --> 00:54:42,236
Speaker 2: the best. Here's what Michael Lewis wrote about John Ray

1011
00:54:42,436 --> 00:54:45,356
Speaker 2: and the process by which he came to replace Sam

1012
00:54:45,396 --> 00:54:47,116
Speaker 2: Bankman Freed as CEO.

1013
00:54:50,396 --> 00:54:53,276
Speaker 1: The Wild and wonderful world of US corporate bankruptcy was

1014
00:54:53,316 --> 00:54:56,356
Speaker 1: increasingly dominated by big law firms, but there were still

1015
00:54:56,396 --> 00:54:59,196
Speaker 1: a few of these lone actors like Ray, who played

1016
00:54:59,196 --> 00:55:02,196
Speaker 1: the role of wildcatters. The law firms brought in the

1017
00:55:02,196 --> 00:55:05,116
Speaker 1: wildcatter to take over as CEO of the failed firm,

1018
00:55:05,716 --> 00:55:09,356
Speaker 1: and the wildcatter in turn hired the law firms as

1019
00:55:09,356 --> 00:55:11,636
Speaker 1: a legal matter. At four point thirty in the morning

1020
00:55:11,636 --> 00:55:15,556
Speaker 1: on Friday, November eleventh, twenty twenty two, Sam Bank and

1021
00:55:15,596 --> 00:55:20,116
Speaker 1: freed Docu signed FTX into bankruptcy and named John Ray

1022
00:55:20,156 --> 00:55:24,516
Speaker 1: as ftx's new CEO. As a practical matter, Sullivan and

1023
00:55:24,596 --> 00:55:26,956
Speaker 1: Cromwell lined up John Ray to replace Sam as the

1024
00:55:26,996 --> 00:55:31,236
Speaker 1: CEO of FTX, and then John Ray hired Sullivan Cromwell

1025
00:55:31,356 --> 00:55:35,796
Speaker 1: as the lawyers for the massive bankruptcy. I mean, the

1026
00:55:35,836 --> 00:55:38,916
Speaker 1: problem with the bankruptcy process is that it's designed to

1027
00:55:38,956 --> 00:55:41,516
Speaker 1: maximize the number of billable hours. It's designed to go

1028
00:55:41,556 --> 00:55:43,476
Speaker 1: on forever and ever and ever, and it's going to

1029
00:55:43,516 --> 00:55:45,196
Speaker 1: cost a billion dollars. It's crazy.

1030
00:55:45,716 --> 00:55:48,276
Speaker 2: Is that more on Ray or more in Solivon Cromwell

1031
00:55:48,356 --> 00:55:49,676
Speaker 2: or just the way the system works.

1032
00:55:50,076 --> 00:55:51,916
Speaker 1: The way the system works, the system's nuts.

1033
00:55:52,356 --> 00:55:53,916
Speaker 2: What would you propose instead.

1034
00:55:54,316 --> 00:55:56,196
Speaker 1: I think that needs to be a regulator. At the moment,

1035
00:55:56,236 --> 00:55:59,356
Speaker 1: there's no oversight. They is someone call the bankruptcy trustee,

1036
00:55:59,356 --> 00:56:01,716
Speaker 1: who's an employee of the Department of Justice, who has

1037
00:56:01,756 --> 00:56:04,596
Speaker 1: no teeth, his ability to write angry letters to the judge,

1038
00:56:04,636 --> 00:56:07,956
Speaker 1: and he has saying it's outrageous how this is being run.

1039
00:56:08,116 --> 00:56:09,556
Speaker 1: But the judge can just ignore it.

1040
00:56:10,076 --> 00:56:12,316
Speaker 2: Now that you've seen the trial, if you had to

1041
00:56:12,316 --> 00:56:14,276
Speaker 2: write the book over again, what would you do different?

1042
00:56:14,716 --> 00:56:16,476
Speaker 1: The one thing I would have loved to have known.

1043
00:56:17,156 --> 00:56:20,476
Speaker 1: I love the idea in their pillow talk of Sam

1044
00:56:20,596 --> 00:56:22,876
Speaker 1: saying to Caroline that there was a five percent chance

1045
00:56:22,916 --> 00:56:25,516
Speaker 1: he would be president of the United States. I feel

1046
00:56:25,556 --> 00:56:27,636
Speaker 1: like I was robbed of material.

1047
00:56:28,276 --> 00:56:31,276
Speaker 2: One more reason I'm just thinking now about why the

1048
00:56:31,316 --> 00:56:35,316
Speaker 2: book got a different reception than one might have anticipated

1049
00:56:35,916 --> 00:56:37,796
Speaker 2: is because it came out around the same time as

1050
00:56:37,836 --> 00:56:42,436
Speaker 2: Walter Isaacson's bio of Elon Musk, and Walter gets to

1051
00:56:42,476 --> 00:56:45,476
Speaker 2: spend a lot of time with his subjects, also living subjects.

1052
00:56:45,476 --> 00:56:48,556
Speaker 2: At least. I haven't read Walter's book, but my read

1053
00:56:48,596 --> 00:56:53,516
Speaker 2: of the reviews is that he praises Musk's accomplishments while

1054
00:56:53,796 --> 00:56:56,596
Speaker 2: laying out the ways in which personally he's kind of

1055
00:56:56,596 --> 00:56:59,796
Speaker 2: an asshole, and Musk is still the richest guy in

1056
00:56:59,836 --> 00:57:02,076
Speaker 2: the world and at the top of his game. Sam

1057
00:57:02,156 --> 00:57:05,356
Speaker 2: had been defenestrated by the time the book came out,

1058
00:57:05,716 --> 00:57:08,076
Speaker 2: And I wonder if maybe I don't know, it's the

1059
00:57:08,156 --> 00:57:10,676
Speaker 2: right kind of target for the right kind of times,

1060
00:57:10,716 --> 00:57:12,916
Speaker 2: and you didn't shoot an arrow through that target.

1061
00:57:13,276 --> 00:57:16,236
Speaker 1: Well, I can't write it any other way than it was.

1062
00:57:16,476 --> 00:57:19,076
Speaker 1: It would have been bizarre to try to pretend that

1063
00:57:19,156 --> 00:57:22,956
Speaker 1: Sam Bangertfried was obviously evil to everybody around him. It

1064
00:57:22,996 --> 00:57:26,236
Speaker 1: would have failed to grapple with why all these people

1065
00:57:26,916 --> 00:57:32,716
Speaker 1: got the smartest fetcher. Capitalists, important politicians, celebrities are enthralled

1066
00:57:32,716 --> 00:57:37,196
Speaker 1: by him. How stupid would it be not to create

1067
00:57:37,356 --> 00:57:41,596
Speaker 1: some of the charm that led him finding himself in

1068
00:57:41,636 --> 00:57:42,596
Speaker 1: the position he was in.

1069
00:57:45,556 --> 00:57:50,196
Speaker 2: There is a particularly revealing scene, particularly sad scene, toward

1070
00:57:50,276 --> 00:57:55,076
Speaker 2: the end of Lewis's book. This happens after FTX had cratered,

1071
00:57:55,196 --> 00:57:59,196
Speaker 2: but before bankman Freed had been arrested, and even though

1072
00:57:59,236 --> 00:58:02,756
Speaker 2: most of his employees had fled the Bahamas, he stayed on,

1073
00:58:03,596 --> 00:58:08,116
Speaker 2: and so did Constance Wang, the chief operating officer of FTX.

1074
00:58:08,276 --> 00:58:11,956
Speaker 2: She had been bankman and Freed's eighth higher Michael Lewis

1075
00:58:12,036 --> 00:58:15,996
Speaker 2: was also in the Bahamas. Then here's what he writes.

1076
00:58:18,036 --> 00:58:20,156
Speaker 1: For the better part of the month, I watched Constance

1077
00:58:20,196 --> 00:58:23,916
Speaker 1: return from her encounters with Sam. Over and over. She

1078
00:58:24,036 --> 00:58:27,076
Speaker 1: confronted Sam with the suffering he'd inflicted upon the very

1079
00:58:27,116 --> 00:58:30,636
Speaker 1: people who'd been the most loyal to him. Most FTX

1080
00:58:30,636 --> 00:58:34,836
Speaker 1: employees had lost their life savings. Some had lost their spouses,

1081
00:58:34,876 --> 00:58:38,236
Speaker 1: their homes, their friends, and their good names. There were

1082
00:58:38,236 --> 00:58:42,196
Speaker 1: Taiwanese employees of FTX still in Hong Kong who couldn't

1083
00:58:42,196 --> 00:58:47,396
Speaker 1: afford plane tickets home. I asked, Sam said, Constance, when

1084
00:58:47,436 --> 00:58:50,116
Speaker 1: you were doing this, have you ever thought how much

1085
00:58:50,196 --> 00:58:53,636
Speaker 1: this event will be hurting people? Even here? However, she

1086
00:58:53,676 --> 00:58:57,076
Speaker 1: found herself talking past Sam. In his telling he hadn't

1087
00:58:57,076 --> 00:59:00,236
Speaker 1: realized how much risk he'd subjected others to without their permission.

1088
00:59:01,196 --> 00:59:04,356
Speaker 1: Constance nevertheless sense that he didn't really register the damage

1089
00:59:04,396 --> 00:59:06,996
Speaker 1: he'd caused to other people in the way that say

1090
00:59:07,116 --> 00:59:12,556
Speaker 1: she might have as absolutely zero empathy. She said, that's

1091
00:59:12,596 --> 00:59:16,076
Speaker 1: what I learned that I didn't know he can't feel anything.

1092
00:59:19,316 --> 00:59:20,916
Speaker 2: So did Sam read your book?

1093
00:59:21,316 --> 00:59:24,676
Speaker 1: I've not spoken to him since he was hauled off

1094
00:59:24,676 --> 00:59:28,196
Speaker 1: to jail on August the eleventh. I was told by

1095
00:59:28,236 --> 00:59:31,356
Speaker 1: his lawyers that they snuck it into him on a

1096
00:59:31,596 --> 00:59:34,316
Speaker 1: drive that had all of the legal documents. But I

1097
00:59:34,356 --> 00:59:36,076
Speaker 1: don't know what he thought about it. He's the one

1098
00:59:36,076 --> 00:59:38,596
Speaker 1: person who hasn't ventured an opinion about my book.

1099
00:59:41,196 --> 00:59:46,396
Speaker 2: What's your opinion? Our email is radio at freakonomics dot com.

1100
00:59:46,636 --> 00:59:49,516
Speaker 2: The book is called Going Infinite, The Rise and Fall

1101
00:59:49,556 --> 00:59:53,276
Speaker 2: of a New Tycoon by Michael Lewis. Freakonomics Radio is

1102
00:59:53,276 --> 00:59:56,476
Speaker 2: produced by Stitcher and ren Bud Radio. This episode was

1103
00:59:56,476 --> 01:00:00,356
Speaker 2: produced by Ryan Kelly. The excerpts you heard from Going

1104
01:00:00,396 --> 01:00:03,076
Speaker 2: Infinite were read by the author, Michael Lewis, from an

1105
01:00:03,116 --> 01:00:08,116
Speaker 2: audiobook produced by Audible Studios. Our staff also includes Elina Cullman, Eleanor,

1106
01:00:08,156 --> 01:00:13,036
Speaker 2: Osborne Else, Hernandez Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Jasmin Klinger, Jeremy Johnston,

1107
01:00:13,116 --> 01:00:17,356
Speaker 2: Julie canfer Lyrick Boutitch, Morgan Levy, Neil Caruth, Rebecca Lee Douglas,

1108
01:00:17,396 --> 01:00:20,716
Speaker 2: Sarah Lily, and Zach Klapinski. Our theme song is Mister

1109
01:00:20,796 --> 01:00:23,356
Speaker 2: Fortune by The Hitchhikers. The rest of the music in

1110
01:00:23,396 --> 01:00:26,716
Speaker 2: this episode was composed by Luis Gera Michael Riola, and

1111
01:00:26,756 --> 01:00:30,596
Speaker 2: Stephen Ulrich. You can find our entire archive on any

1112
01:00:30,636 --> 01:00:33,596
Speaker 2: podcast app or at freakonomics dot com, where we also

1113
01:00:33,636 --> 01:00:37,876
Speaker 2: publish transcripts and show notes. As always, thanks for listening.

1114
01:00:42,116 --> 01:00:44,516
Speaker 2: I have approximately a million more questions, but it is

1115
01:00:44,636 --> 01:00:47,196
Speaker 2: one o'clock. You gotta go, I assume, yeah, yeah, I

1116
01:00:47,236 --> 01:00:50,796
Speaker 2: do have to go. All right, this was fun, my hope,

1117
01:00:50,796 --> 01:00:51,316
Speaker 2: it was fun.

1118
01:00:56,076 --> 01:01:04,116
Speaker 3: The Freakonomics Radio Network, The Hidden Side of Everything, Stitcher,