1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the 2 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for 3 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: tuning in. It's us back from Las Vegas with stories 4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,959 Speaker 1: to tell. Shout out to our main man, super producer, 5 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: mister Max Williams. Max, what I think it's the right 6 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: and ethical thing for Nola and I to assure you 7 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: that you missed absolutely nothing in Vegas. 8 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,279 Speaker 2: I'm ben you were damn But you guys know what, 9 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 2: while y'all were in Vegas, I was learning about math. 10 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 3: It was probably some math that we could have put 11 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 3: to use to game those poker machines, which is definitely 12 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 3: a thing that you can do. 13 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to figure out of them, that's right. 14 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 2: No true story. 15 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 3: I went to this local bar in the Arts district 16 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 3: and was standing in line for the bathroom and there 17 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 3: are these two older gentlemen who were talking about gambling machines, 18 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 3: and one of them said that a friend of his 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 3: actually designs the machines, and that even he has no 20 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 3: way of gaming the system because the system is designed 21 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 3: to game you. 22 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: That's true. We have an episode on stuff they don't 23 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: want you to know coming out called stuff casinos don't 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: want you to know. Pay attention to that. It's a 25 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: live show, and you'll also hear a show we did 26 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: about Labor Day, also live in Vegas, with some help 27 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: from our friends at Bow's. It was a weird time. 28 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: Max I won. I didn't win a lot of money, 29 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: but a guy named Greg won a lot of money. 30 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: And that's a story for off air. It's it's the 31 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: true story. It's a weird one. But to your point, 32 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: Nol one of my very good friends in my old 33 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: sketch comedy group, or No. One of my old improv teams, 34 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: his day job is designing slot machines, video slot machines, 35 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: and he's in just the same situation as that stranger's friend. 36 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: At the bar. 37 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: It's it's very much a black box when you get 38 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: to that random number generation on the slots. 39 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: Correct. 40 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 3: I actually won big on one hit first twenty bucks 41 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 3: I put into a machine. I won one thousand dollars 42 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 3: and I still ended up two hundred dollars down overall Vegas. Baby, 43 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 3: it's the price of doing business. 44 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: Greg M. And oh I did find out Greg M 45 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: is a real person, Greg M. That's what we're just saying, M. 46 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: Greg m who I became for the entirety of our 47 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: trip there, received one hundred dollars credit from a casino 48 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: and then walked away with about seven hundred dollars minus 49 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: those egregious ATM fees. 50 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: So thanks Greg, you win, Greg wins. Greg will loses, 51 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 3: but Noel had a good time. Man learned a lot 52 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 3: about the nature of the human spirit, most of which 53 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 3: I learned from the Hoover Dam video, yes, which is. 54 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: Very much propaganda that reminds me of going to the 55 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: border of North Korea. That has nothing to do with 56 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: anything but today's story, courtesy of our research associate, mister 57 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: Max Williams, is about creative problem solving, or an attempt 58 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: to do so, thinking out of the box, saying, hey, 59 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: if there's some math I can't quite math, why don't 60 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: I change the rules of the game. And that is 61 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: where our story kind of begins. Let's get into pie day. 62 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: You guys know where nerds, fellow ridiculous historians. One of 63 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: our good friends, Tyler Klang, who keeps things running backstage, 64 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: has memorized pie I kid you not to an egregious 65 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: number of digits. 66 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 3: That's a fun flex. I know it up to three 67 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 3: point one four, one five nine. 68 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: I know up to three point one four. 69 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: I only know the one five nine because it's on 70 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 3: the research doct that I'm looking at right now. 71 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: And every year on March fourteenth, this might come up 72 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: because you may run into one of the people who 73 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: wants to have a pie flex. And I've seen people 74 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: go back and it's like a weird battle rap, which 75 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: I love, where they go back and forth naming the 76 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: digits of pie. It's also a road trip game. If 77 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: you are not fun an. 78 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 3: So every I mean, it depends on your definition of fun, 79 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 3: you'd be incredibly fixed all kinds. In math circles. You're 80 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 3: probably the bell of the ball. Pie has in fact 81 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 3: been calculated way beyond even what Tyler has memorized, up 82 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 3: to fifty trillion digits, a number that is incalculable to 83 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 3: the of this particular podcaster, and that's of course beyond 84 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 3: its decimal point. 85 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 2: It is a. 86 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 3: Transcendental number, which I had not heard that term used before. 87 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 3: I always associate that with more metaphysical pursuits and meditation 88 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 3: and all of that, but apparently numbers can transcend reality 89 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 3: as well, and it is also an irrational number. You 90 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 3: just can't talk to it. You know, it just insists 91 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 3: upon itself. It's so irrational. 92 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: It's one of the most fascinating mathematical phenomenon right because PI, 93 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: at its basis, is the ratio of the circumference of 94 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: a circle to its diameter. Now, most people will tell 95 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 1: you three point one, four, one, five nine is close 96 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: enough for government work. But this strange, distinct nature of 97 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: PI has captured the human mind for time immemorial. That's 98 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: why every day on March fourteenth, people celebrate Pie Day. 99 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: That's why, you know, like you said, there are a 100 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: lot of people who want to memorize or count out 101 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: every everything. That's why there's an excellent film called Pie. 102 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: It's a great date movie. Just trust us, don't read 103 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: these spoilers. 104 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: Tie again. Early first one drilled in their head like 105 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: a little. 106 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 3: All Stars that It probably came out in the nineties, 107 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 3: like maybe ninety eight, ninety nine, something like that. But yeah, 108 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 3: it's also in really really gritty filmy black and white. 109 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 3: So in that scene that you're describing the splatter, it 110 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: just looks like black ink. It's pretty intense. It's a 111 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 3: really cool movie. It's Kabbala as well. It's there's like 112 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 3: a crossover of the math side. The main character as 113 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 3: a mathematician and he encounters this sect of almost like 114 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 3: a cult of Kabbala followers who are essentially searching for 115 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 3: like a sacred geometry something. 116 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it's almost a callback to Arthur C. 117 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: Clark's Nine Billion Names of God because they induct them. 118 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: They've got the teflin and all that stuff. And then 119 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: there's of course an evil corporate conspiracy. 120 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 2: It's just great. 121 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: Ye. And here's the thing. Wild Pie is chaotic. While 122 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:25,239 Speaker 1: it seems that there is no predictable repetition, let alone 123 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: an end to the digit, it is still very very 124 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: important because we need to understand circumferences of circles. This 125 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: is huge for space exploration. Like NASA pointed out, engineers 126 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: at their organization build spacecraft that make these elliptical orbits 127 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: and guzzle fuel from cylindrical fuel tanks and measure distance 128 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: on circular wheels. 129 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: All of those are round things. Yeah. 130 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 3: Another thing that comes up in the film Pie is 131 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 3: the idea of the golden ratio and a lot of 132 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 3: these things that sort of appear in Native Sure, it 133 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 3: would appear that Pie is in some way a secret 134 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 3: of the universe. 135 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it might be, if you believe in reality as 136 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: a simulation, it might be some of the code used 137 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: to program resources. 138 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 3: Right. 139 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: So we're giving you that really quick background on pie 140 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: as a cultural phenomenon, as a as a mathematic fascination, 141 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: because it turns out, fellow ridiculous historians, that we are 142 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: not alone in our fascination and with with a little 143 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: bit of gumption and a lot of hutspa. Over in 144 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: Indiana back in the day, there was a guy who 145 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: thought he figured out pie. 146 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, figured it out better than all the other science 147 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 3: types that have been doing it since antiquity, including folks 148 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 3: like Pythagoras, Archimedes of Syracuse, all the hits, you know. 149 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 3: And this fellow in Indiana was like, no, no, no, 150 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 3: I got this. 151 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: I think we think. 152 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 3: I think a change will do us good here in 153 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 3: the fine state of India. 154 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: He had help, He had some divine intervention. 155 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: You could say, hey, wait, do you know the upcoming 156 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know? Episode? 157 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 2: Max, I don't, but I know this episode because I 158 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: wrote it. 159 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, Max, you wrote our research brief here and I 160 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: really enjoy some of the stuff you found about the 161 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: history of pie. We said time immemorial. For humans, that 162 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: means they knew about pie for about four thousand years. 163 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: And it keeps reminding me of some of my favorite 164 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: science fiction. Even if human civilization calculated the number of 165 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: seconds in four thousand years and calculated pie to the 166 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: number of seconds in four thousand years, we would still 167 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: not have the whole number. It would there would still 168 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: be another digit after that, and another after that, and 169 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: after that, and so for much of human history. Like 170 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: you mentioned, no Archimedes, Pythagoras, They're trying to calculate to 171 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: the best of their ability, and every single person ended 172 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: up eventually rounding up or rounding down and saying close enough. 173 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: Close to three. 174 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 3: The ancient Babylonians calculated the area of a circle using 175 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 3: the formula of three times the square of its radius, 176 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 3: which gave that value of Pie equals three. On an 177 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 3: ancient Babylonian tablet circa nineteen hundred to sixteen eighty BCE, 178 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 3: it shows the value of three point one two five 179 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 3: for Pi, which is a bit closer to the modern 180 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 3: day approximation. Another ancient text, the Wrinned Papyrus circus sixteen 181 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 3: fifty BCE, shows a little bit more of a look 182 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 3: into the math of ancient Egypt, which was shockingly advanced. 183 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 3: The emptions were no slouches when it came to figure in. 184 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: The pyramids might not look that impressive until you realize 185 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: how much math went into building them. 186 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 3: Oh, Ben, I watched a little bit when we got 187 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: back from our trip last night, just to kind of 188 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 3: mellow out Kunk on Earth, and oh and suggested it. 189 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 3: And there's a great line sort of in the beginning 190 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 3: when it's just doing like a clip show, kind of 191 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 3: showing what the show is going to be, where she's 192 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 3: talking to some expert on math or I believe history, 193 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 3: and say, so, why are people so confused about how 194 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 3: the pyramids were built? It's obviously just big bricks shaped 195 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: like a triangle. 196 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, did you enjoy it? 197 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: I enjoyed what I saw. I did pass out, but 198 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 2: I look for to revisiting it. It's a delight. 199 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: I will revisit it to a Fortunately, I had to 200 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: stay up all night, so I'm a little sleep deprived. 201 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: But hey, pie never ends, so why should we? And 202 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: then let's go to Archimedes just to flesh out the 203 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: background here, folks. So Archimedes of Syracuse, not the one 204 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: you're thinking of. He is one of the greatest mathematicians 205 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: of the ancient world. And so he tackled this the 206 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: way smart people always do. He looked around at precedents, 207 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: he asked questions, and eventually he said, look, I can 208 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: approximate the area of a circle if I use the 209 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: existing Pythagorean theorem to find the area of two regular polygons. 210 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: And it's like old Matroshkadal, right, there's a polygon inscribed 211 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: within the circle, and then there's a polygon outside of 212 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: the circle, And so he said, the actual area of 213 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: the circle is somewhere in there. So now if I 214 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: know how big the outside shape is and how big 215 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: the inside shape is, I know that the circumference of 216 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: the like the circle itself, the area of it is 217 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: somewhere in between there. 218 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 3: And shout out to Exploratorium dot edu, which is a 219 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 3: learning laboratory that you can visit in San Francisco. 220 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: You can actually buy tickets. 221 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 3: Seems like a really cool place, a science museum and 222 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 3: has some really good information on their website, including a 223 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 3: brief history of PI. So as you can tell, this 224 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 3: stuff goes way way way back, involving some historical figures 225 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 3: who are way smarter than us, including back in ancient 226 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 3: China around four twenty nine to five oh one CE 227 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 3: the mathematician Zoo Chong Shei. 228 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, Hutong she was brilliant. Is kind of the the 229 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: Chinese Archimedes. If you ignore the timeline, he would not 230 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: have known of Archimedes' clever method. Oh, by the way, 231 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: don't want to miss this, folks. Archimedes his process found 232 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: that pies between three and one seventh and three and 233 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: ten seventy one, so he got pretty close. Not bad dude, 234 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: and I had not been says to Archimedes. You know 235 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: a good hustle bro anyway, so our buddy shoe. He 236 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: calculates the value of the ratio of the circumference of 237 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: a circle to its diameter to be three fifty five 238 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: over one thirteen. And to compute this, he started with 239 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: the closest kind of polygon that could approximate a circle 240 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: and still had discernible sides. And then he did hundreds 241 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: and hundreds of weird calculations. Weird to me at least 242 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: of square roots carried out to nine decimal places. So 243 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: also good hustle shoe and then the letter. The letter 244 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: actually doesn't come around until the seventeen hundreds to represent 245 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: this concept. 246 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, and from the section that brief history of HIE article, 247 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: I learned that you can have a polygon is just 248 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 3: a kind of catch all for a shape that has sides. 249 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 3: And it refers to in this computation done by Shangxi 250 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 3: A two five hundred and seventy six gone, which is 251 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 3: a thing. 252 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's from far enough away, it looks kind of 253 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: like a circle, almost like pixels, like you have to 254 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: like zoom in to kind of see the building blocks. 255 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: And now knowing all that, we are going to fast 256 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: forward Max, we get fast forward Q to a bit 257 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: more modern history. We're fast forwarding and we are making 258 00:15:47,800 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: this our Indiana state. Thank you, Max. Indiana calls itself 259 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: the Crossroads of America if you've ever been. It's a 260 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: nice place outside of Erie. It borders Lake Michigan, and 261 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: you know, and Max's home state of Michigan to the north, 262 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: Ohio's on the east, Kentucky's in the south, Illinois over 263 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: in the west. So this place is peak Midwest. Its story, 264 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: its modern story dates back to sixteen seventy nine when 265 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: according to our pals of Britannica, a guy named Renee 266 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: Ruleboat Cavilla has traveled from Boat down the Saint Joseph 267 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: River and arrived at northern Indiana and colonialism happened. It 268 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: was French for a little bit. In seventeen sixty three, 269 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: they gave it to England. I think his title even 270 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: goes a little further with us Sieur, which means lord 271 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: de la Salle, and that Crossroads of America, you know, 272 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: I guess is a sort of a nod to this 273 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: sort of exploration kind of history. 274 00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: So can I jump in here? This is something I 275 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: did not realize that other than Hawaii, it is the 276 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 2: smallest land massed state west of the Appalachians. That's weird. 277 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 2: I did not realize that. 278 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: It doesn't. It doesn't look like it, right. 279 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: It's not because it's not a small state. 280 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: It's not. 281 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 2: But that's aboutares and the caveat is the location of 282 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: the Appalachians, right or Appalachians. So yeah, the United States 283 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 2: found out they're going they were going to have a 284 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: lot more land once they got past the Appellations, and 285 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: then did a bunch of horrible things which we're about 286 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 2: to talk about. 287 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: They manifested a destiny that is ethically fraught. So the 288 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: interesting thing happens on the way to England. When the 289 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: English forces take possession of what becomes Indiana, they prohibit 290 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: further European settlement. However, let's remember communication lines were not 291 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: super strong. It was very difficult to project force across 292 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: an ocean at that point, so every ignored this decree. 293 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: In seventeen seventy four, the English Parliament said, okay, we 294 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: are gonna annex the lands to Quebec. And then there's 295 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: this whole revolution, the peasant unpleasantness they call it in England, 296 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: and we call it the American Revolution. And during that time, 297 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, everybody is scrambling to possess the land that 298 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: becomes called Indiana, Virginia, Connecticut, Massachusetts, they're all in this. 299 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: And I don't know how deep we want to go 300 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: into the history, but what you need to know is 301 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: while all these European and colonial forces were batting the 302 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: ball back and forth, the European settlers were moving into 303 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: an area with a large, thriving indigenous population, and they 304 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: were doing terrible stuff. People don't always want to hear 305 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: that but it is the truth, and you can it's 306 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: so objectively true that you can find it in any 307 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: reputable history of Indiana, even just the general intrigue from 308 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: our friends at history dot. 309 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 2: Com m HM. 310 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 3: And that all resulted in the well, not resulted in, 311 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 3: but a big one, and we've mentioned this recently, was 312 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 3: the eighteen to eleven Battle of Tippecanoe and Tyler Too, 313 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 3: which was won by William Henry Harrison, who was a 314 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 3: general at the time and of course would go on 315 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 3: to become the President of the United States. And the 316 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 3: name Indiana, which it's pretty easy to make this connection 317 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 3: loosely translates to land of the Indians, but as we 318 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 3: also know, Indians is not a thing, right like they 319 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 3: Columbus was looking for the Indies and he did not 320 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 3: find them. 321 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 2: Sign not. Have you guys heard about the Native tribe 322 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: suing the Washington commanders telling them they need to change 323 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 2: their name back to not not Washington football team, whichever 324 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 2: agreads was the best one of the three, but to 325 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 2: the one before that. 326 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, I heard, I heard there was a lawsuit. Interesting, 327 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: We'll have to see how that shakes out. Maybe once 328 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: it becomes history, we can we can tell that ridiculous story. 329 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it does sound like we're you know, we're 330 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: going in a couple of different directions here, folks, But 331 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: hopefully they are helpful directions, because get this, the entire 332 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: time all that other stuff is happening, folks have no 333 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: idea about HI. I mean, they have no idea. They 334 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: haven't solved it. They don't know how it ends, they 335 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: don't know if it repeats. And that continues today. Now 336 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: and we fast forward, we meet They're in Indiana. A 337 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: mathematics professor Purdue University, his name Clarence Waldo, and Clarence 338 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: Waldo in February of eighteen ninety seven, shows up at 339 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: the Indiana State House and he's trying to lobby for 340 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: his school, for Purdue University. For everybody outside of the US, 341 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: lobbying is lobbying is the word we use for bribery. 342 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 3: So when Waldo was hanging out in the state House 343 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 3: to push for those increases in school budgets, he witnessed 344 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 3: something that resonated with him. House built two forty six, 345 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 3: a measure intended to legally change the value of the 346 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: number Pi to three point two, and it passed its 347 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 3: third and final reading in the General Assembly's lower house, 348 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 3: and he is quoted as saying the following in response 349 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 3: to that event, imagine my surprise, and I discovered that 350 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 3: I was in the midst of a debate upon a 351 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 3: piece of mathematical legislation. After the vote was concluded, a 352 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 3: legislator walked over to Walder, who at the time was 353 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 3: also the president of the Indiana Academy of Science, and 354 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 3: suggested that he meet the man behind the bill, to 355 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 3: which the professor politely declined. 356 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, and said, I'm already acquainted with as many crazy 357 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: people as I care to know. Shout out to an 358 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: absolutely non crazy guy, a ripping writer Nathan Gosh writing 359 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: for the Indiana Capitol Chronicle, who's giving us the ins 360 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: and outs of this story. The question is what's going on? 361 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: Why did this bill pop up? This is interesting to 362 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: Waldo because doctor Waldo is a mathematics professor, and that's 363 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: when he learns about the crazy quote unquote crazy guy 364 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: the legislators referring to Edwin Goodwin. Edwin Goodwin is a 365 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: country doctor and sort of self taught man amateur mathematician 366 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: living in rural area about twenty miles outside of Evansville, Indiana. 367 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: He has been obsessed with what we just proved is 368 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: a nigh unsolvable problem. He always he stays up at 369 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: night and he's thinking, if I only use a standard 370 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: compass in a straightitch, can I construct a square with 371 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: the same area as a given circle. That's like, that's 372 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: his Kardashians, that's his Reality TV. That's what he thinks 373 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: about and watches and plays with. 374 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 3: Right, And he wasn't the first person to come up 375 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 3: with this idea, but he did think that he found 376 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 3: a better way to approach the problem. And this is 377 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,719 Speaker 3: from reporting in Forbes by Keona and Smith. 378 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: Quote. 379 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 3: He started by trying to throw out Archimedes' formula for 380 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 3: the area of the circle and replace it with his 381 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 3: own formula, which was more complex and arguably more convoluted 382 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 3: in its writing style, which apparently was a bit problematic, 383 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 3: and he used some pretty imprecise versions of the original 384 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 3: measurements in his diagram, which included pie And as a 385 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 3: result of these calculations, he came to the conclusion that 386 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 3: the area of the circle was about twenty one percent 387 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 3: larger than its actual area. So basically he just you know, 388 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 3: to your point earlier been fueled by moxie and or hutzba. 389 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 3: He believed in what he was doing and aggressively pursued it. 390 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 3: But what he was doing was basically bad math. He 391 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 3: had the he had the strident confidence of the objectively incorrect. 392 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: So he had this. His idea was that he can 393 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: approximate pie as a ratio of quote five fourths to 394 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: four three point two. That is not the correct way 395 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: to round pie. Goodwin doesn't care, because he had a 396 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: message from on high telling him it was okay, that's right. 397 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: In addition to being a country doc or a mathematician, 398 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: he was also a bit of a prophet. He believed 399 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: that he had experienced divine intervention, that God had told 400 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: him in March of eighteen eighty eight the true value 401 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: of pie. So this voice from on high just said Edward, 402 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: it's three point two, And he's like, what, who are 403 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: you on God? What does three point two mean? It's pie? 404 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 2: All right on your way. 405 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 3: So it's almost like he he worked backwards kind of 406 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 3: like to reach that conclusion. Almost it would seem like 407 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 3: he allowed himself to be guided by imprecise math in 408 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 3: order to reach that calculation. And as we know, that's 409 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 3: a real bad way to do science, to seek a particular. 410 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 2: Result that is not what one tends to want to do. 411 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, Another just off the top example would be like, 412 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: let's say you have an equation and you know that 413 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: equation needs to equal ten. You have two numbers, you 414 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: have seven, and you have four, and so instead of 415 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: accepting that those numbers are true, you say, well, I'm 416 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: going to change that seven to a six. I'm going 417 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: to change the problems so that it feels like I 418 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: got the answer. And in his defense, it does seem 419 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: he was sincere. It does not seem that he was 420 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: trying to run a grift. He really did believe a 421 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: divine force, probably the Christian God, had spoken to him 422 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: and revealed this information, and armed with this, he goes 423 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: and remember he's a doctor, so he has some juice 424 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: in his community. He goes to local state reps and 425 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: one of them is a weird name Taylor. I record 426 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: or record probably, but I like I record to me, Sally, I. 427 00:26:58,880 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 2: Record it's true. 428 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 3: And this is one thing that occurred to me when 429 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 3: reading up on this stuff, is like, we've seen this 430 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 3: kind of thing happen in politics about other things like 431 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 3: remember when the lawmakers. Some certain lawmakers were up in 432 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 3: arms about like furries and schools, like you know, kids 433 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 3: that like to dress up as animals. 434 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: And they're putting litterboxes in the schools. 435 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 3: And they literally were debating this, you know, in you know, 436 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 3: the House of Government, and it was just absolutely not true. 437 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 3: And it just goes to show it is a good 438 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 3: thing to write your congressman, to write your your lawmaker, 439 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 3: but make sure you do it with good information and 440 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 3: in good faith, because this is a perfect example. Well, 441 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 3: you know, this guy might not have been a bad 442 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 3: faith actor. He was acting on completely incorrect information and 443 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 3: it would have gone all the way likely due to 444 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 3: a lack of good information across the board. Thankfully, as 445 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 3: we talked about at the top of the episode a 446 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 3: little earlier, this true mathematician Waldo, where was he? 447 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: Well, he was there. He was there at the right time, 448 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 2: right place. Yes, can we get the name of this bill? 449 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right, exactly. Yeah, So Taylor I record, 450 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: or hopefully Taylor I record. He is persuaded by Goodwin 451 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,479 Speaker 1: to introduce this bill, because any state rep can introduce 452 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: a bill, and in eighteen ninety seven he goes to 453 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: the rest of his buddies in the halls of Indiana 454 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: power and introduces quote a bill for an act introducing 455 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: a new mathematical truth. And this legislation is a real thing. Yeah. 456 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: It promises that Goodwin will allow the state of Indiana 457 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: to publish his discovery in all its textbooks for free, 458 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: you guys, for foul thanks, and anyone else outside of 459 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: Indiana is going to have to regularly pay royalties to 460 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: Goodwin because that thing. God also said that. I imagine 461 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: God was also like, and every time you tell someone 462 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: they owe you three bocks. 463 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 3: I don't think you can own a mathematical truth. I 464 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 3: don't think that's how these types of discoveries work. 465 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: Not really, you're correct, I mean, how would you stop 466 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: people from thinking an idea? So, as you point out, Max, 467 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: that's not anywhere close to how publishing those discoveries works, 468 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: as you said, Noel, But that was not why lawmakers 469 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: were confused. Remember a lot of these guys are lawyers. 470 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: They know that's not how royalties, copyright residuals, or anything 471 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: like that works. They're mainly confused because they're like, why 472 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: are we doing this? Why are we here? Don't we 473 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: have other stuff to do? And they're trying to figure 474 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: out how to process this bill, right, what is the 475 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: parliamentary procedure for something this unusual? And one guy literally says, 476 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: make the Finance Committee do it. 477 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 3: They do numbers, They do numbers, they do maths. You 478 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 3: got a wonder too, at this time in history, in 479 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 3: a state like Indiana. Do you think the fact that 480 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 3: he said it came into his head from God had 481 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 3: something to do with the support. Yeah, I'm sure you 482 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 3: have to have moved the needle a little bit. 483 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 2: No, the year is twenty twenty three. There's parts in 484 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 2: this country where that would still probably work. Of course, 485 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: many parts of this country. 486 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: Actually, Yeah, and full disclosure, one of them is our 487 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: fair home state of Georgia. One hund So, another guy 488 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: who was who was in the mix, probably studied geometry 489 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: at some point in his life. He joked, we should 490 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: send this to the Committee on Swamp lends to quote 491 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: find a deserved grave. 492 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: Ah. 493 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 3: I love all the timey political speak, ay, and you 494 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 3: can all the snark is always so just drippingly delicious. 495 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 3: So eventually Build two forty six did find its way 496 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 3: to I guess what would seem like an appropriate committee, 497 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 3: The Committee on Education, which in its infinite wisdom approved 498 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 3: it and sent it to the General Assembly for a vote, 499 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 3: and as we mentioned, it did pass. On February sixth, 500 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 3: eighteen ninety seven. It was passed unanimously, sixty seven to zero. 501 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 3: Those guys just wanted to get to lunch. I think 502 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 3: that's true. It just seemed like such a to them, 503 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 3: like this is such a nothing, let's just move on. 504 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 3: But you know, to men of science, to people of science, 505 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 3: this is a big deal. This is like a blemish 506 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 3: on the reputation of the state. They know where this 507 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 3: is going to go and how it's gonna make their 508 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 3: state and their lawmakers, their legislative body a laughing stock. 509 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 3: And thankfully, as we mentioned a couple of times, Clarence Waldo, 510 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 3: our hero scientist who actual understood the calculations, was there 511 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 3: observing and happened to be in the exact right place 512 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 3: at the exact right time to keep this atrocity from 513 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 3: going through. 514 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: Right at least, at the very least to help reverse it. 515 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely cut it off at the past as 516 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: best he could. And history hinges on such small things. 517 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: This guy was just in the room for something completely 518 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: different and was an ethical enough person to raise his 519 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: hand and pump the brakes. 520 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: He stopped the. 521 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: Bill in the Senate because he said, look, this is 522 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: going to be a national, international, historic embarrassment for all 523 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: of you, and so any senators that could listen to reason, 524 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: he would take them aside. He was privately coaching them, 525 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: like saying, look, I know you're not a mathematician. This 526 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: is why this matters. And here are you know, you're 527 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: talking points, here's what you say, and anybody who knows 528 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: anything about math, they will be nodding their heads in 529 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: fervent agreement. At the same time, he's working against the 530 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: media machine because newspapers outside of Indiana had picked up 531 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: the story. Look at these local yokels out in the Midwest, 532 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, and should this be the crossroads of America? 533 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: And they are making fun of the legislators. They're saying 534 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: they're a bunch of suckers, They're a bunch of nincom 535 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: Poops Center or in Hubble of Elkhart County tried to 536 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: kill the bill. He ran point on the offense and 537 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: he said it was utter folly. We might as well 538 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: try to legislate water to run up hill. 539 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and all of this was as a result of 540 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 3: the coaching that these folks received. Again, a lot of 541 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 3: these lawmakers, they're not experts in every field. They that's 542 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 3: why they have, you know, advisors and folks that they 543 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 3: depend on to help them. And if they're getting bad information, 544 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 3: then they oftentimes act on bad information. So this is 545 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 3: a good example of the system of law working more 546 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 3: or less like it's supposed to, because now there's this 547 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 3: whole counter rhetoric against what has come to pass. 548 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: I'm so glad. I'm so glad professors and nerds are 549 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 1: in the world. I feel like most legislative bodies should 550 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: just have some on call just hanging out, you know, 551 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,800 Speaker 1: if they're broke, they maybe broke grad students. Just promise 552 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: them lunch and then have them raise their hand if 553 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: something sounds off. That would save us a lot of time. 554 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 2: Sounds like we need to give, like, you know, our lawmakers. 555 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 2: Zack Williams, research associate, Zach Williams. Yeah, yes, exactly. I'd 556 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 2: be one hundred down for Zach proof reading these bills. 557 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: I'd be down for any of us hanging out with 558 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 1: that stuff. 559 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: I mean, even pay attention. 560 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: If politics wasn't so dirty, then I probably would have 561 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: been more involved, but everybody vote. 562 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 3: I guess we just say at the end, I mean, 563 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 3: but the thing is, though, to the point of this 564 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 3: whole story is a lot of times there's just too 565 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 3: many things going on to keep abreast of everything and 566 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 3: also be like, you know, doing your own research and 567 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 3: your own work. So absolutely thanks to these folks that 568 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 3: pay attention to everything that is running through institutions of 569 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 3: law in this country and raising the red flag when 570 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 3: stupid stuff is about to go down. 571 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: And to that point, you know, if we're being completely 572 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: objective and not romanticizing the story, the reason that bill 573 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 1: died was primarily due to Waldo's lobbying and the negative press. 574 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: It wasn't as though these senators themselves were mathematic luminaries. 575 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: There's something that was later reported by the Indianapolis Journal. 576 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: They say, quote all of the senators who spoke on 577 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 1: the bill admitted that they were ignorant of the merits 578 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: of the proposition. That's not a ding on them, because 579 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: if you are a senator, if you're a state rep 580 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: you are constantly inundated with things. You have entire teams, 581 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: small armies, cadres of people who are experts. Hopefully if 582 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: you're doing it right, they are experts on something and 583 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: not corporate shills. 584 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,720 Speaker 3: Honestly, it's a positive that these folks would even admit 585 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 3: that they didn't know what they didn't know and that 586 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 3: they sought advice from the right people, because, as we know, 587 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 3: a lot of politicians just kind of bs their way 588 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,439 Speaker 3: through stuff and act like they know exactly what they're 589 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 3: talking about and are. 590 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 2: Much the worse for it. 591 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 3: So this is a pretty rare thing for lawmakers to do, 592 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 3: to say, well, we didn't really know, and now we know, 593 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 3: and we're basically sorry. 594 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 1: I think that's a great point, and so let's send 595 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: the main message there. Thank you to the conscientious people 596 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: who are able to stand up and say, hey, let's 597 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: take another look at this. No one in this story 598 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: is a bad guy. You know, Goodwin again, he was 599 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: a good faith actor. 600 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 2: He was sincere. 601 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: But sincerity because we believe something to be true does 602 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: not make it objectively true. Anyway. That's the crazy story 603 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: that leads us to Pie Day, which is so much fun. 604 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: There's so many different ways to celebrate Pie Day, and 605 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: there are so many other weird facts about Indiana. 606 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's also funny, Like I mean, when I was 607 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 3: a kid. I first heard about Pie Day in like 608 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 3: middle school, and it involves also eating pie which are 609 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 3: circular confections and delicious. 610 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. But I mean I think one of my 611 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 2: favorite things about this is, uh, as you guys mentioned, 612 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 2: we're trying to do all the states, I have this 613 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,839 Speaker 2: neurotic thing set up to keep draving all. 614 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, thank you, and take that dud I'm getting. Actually, 615 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: souf John Stevens is recovering from something pretty serious right now. 616 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 3: So yeah, the immune condition. Yeah, he's got a new 617 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 3: record coming out that sounds amazing. When I say take 618 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 3: that suit, I mean, take the advice of your doctors. 619 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 3: You'll get through it. Man, You're awesome. 620 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 2: But yeah, so I've been going through so when finding 621 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 2: these stories, I just kind of google a lot of things. 622 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 2: I read a lot of like lists of stuff, and 623 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 2: I found some other weird things about Indiana. They have 624 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 2: a town called Santa Claus, Indiana. It's a themed town 625 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 2: and they get half a million letters to Santa every year. 626 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is through the border of Kentucky. I think 627 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: it's because a lot of times kids will just put 628 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: Santa Claus on the envelope. 629 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 2: That sounds about right. They produced twenty percent of the 630 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 2: country's popcorn. 631 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: Check out our stuff They Don't want you to Know. 632 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: Episode on corn. 633 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 2: Wait is Oraville Reddenbacher from this part of the World's 634 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 2: from Miami. 635 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: He was big in the drug game. 636 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 2: What that's not true. They have had six vice presidents 637 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 2: in American history. We've also had two more three more 638 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 2: vice presidents than actual presidents. I don't know if you 639 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 2: guys knew that. 640 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: I did not, And I also did not know that 641 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: is illegal for a liquor store in Indiana to sell 642 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,720 Speaker 1: milk or soft drinks. And I've got to be honest, 643 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: being kind of a square goody goodye for like into 644 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,760 Speaker 1: my adult life, I thought package stores sold boxes. 645 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think we all had that, had that moment 646 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,720 Speaker 2: at some point. Yeah, but I was like in college, 647 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, I mean I'm gonna tell you that 648 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 2: that one really interests me. I'm thinking trying to see 649 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 2: if there's enough of a story there to do like 650 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,320 Speaker 2: a Blue Loss Part two, because I would love to 651 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 2: do that kind of seems like because it's a weird one. 652 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 2: It's like I can't buy a soda and a bottle 653 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:34,399 Speaker 2: of liquor. 654 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: At the same time, I've got a collection of some 655 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: of those as well that it's crazy how many are 656 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 1: still around, even if they're not strictly enforced. But yes, 657 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: Blue Laws Part two folks too did We've got some 658 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,240 Speaker 1: more crazy stuff on the way. We're going to explore 659 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: the life and times of Aaron Burr. We're gonna have 660 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: a bit of a bit of a toilet or sanitation week. 661 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: Tune in for that. Check out our Vegas episode on 662 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: Labor Day if you haven't yet, And to go ahead 663 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: and advertise it, probably the most biased episode we ever 664 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,800 Speaker 1: do is going to be about the Hoover Dam, because 665 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: I'm so taken with it. 666 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 2: I was as well. 667 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 3: It is a without sending to propagandistic, a modern marvel 668 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 3: of engineering, and probably some pie went into it, not 669 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 3: the confection, but the math. 670 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: Absolutely. So thank you to thank you to who I'm 671 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: calling Hoover Matt, our wonderful historian when we explored the 672 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: Hoover Dam. Thanks as always to our super producer and 673 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: research associate for this episode, mister Max Williams. Who else 674 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:42,879 Speaker 1: and who else? 675 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 3: Oh, Christopher Osio. It is here in spirit Eve's Jeff 676 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 3: co All the hits. Alex Williams composed our theme, and 677 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 3: of course Ben you. 678 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: And also with you and thanks to Greg and oh yeah. 679 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 2: I like Greg, good guy, great gambler. We'll see you 680 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 2: next time, folks. 681 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 682 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.