1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Me and M, 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: the British modern luxury clothing label designed for busy women. 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Founded and designed in London. Me and M is about 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: intelligence style. Much thought and care are put into the 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: design process, so every piece is flattering, functional and made 6 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: to last forever. Me and M is well known for 7 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: its trousers and how I got to know the brand. 8 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: It's my go to for styles that are comfortable enough 9 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: to wear in the kitchen or the restaurant, also polished 10 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: enough for meetings. Me and M is available online and 11 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: its stores across London, Edinburgh, New York. If you're in London, 12 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: I'd really recommend heading to their beautiful, brand new flagship 13 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: store in Marlevin, which opens on the twenty ninth of October. 14 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: I'm often asked about the quality I look for when 15 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: interviewing a chef. Is it the way they make an 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: omelet own a fish, or perform under stress? For me, 17 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: the answer is easy. The quality I look for is 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: quite simply curiosity. The world knows Tony Blair as a 19 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: visionary leader prime Minister. I know him as a close 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: and loyal friend, but most of all, he is curious 21 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: and the first dinner we had for him in our 22 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: home in nineteen ninety six, he went straight into the 23 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: kitchen to talk to a young, inexperienced chef, Jamie Oliver, 24 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: asking how he was making the rottolo di spinacci. Tony 25 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: Blair has been interviewed countless times, but tonight on Ruthie's 26 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: table before, we're going to look at his life and 27 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: his career through memories of food, food in politics, food 28 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: and family, And tonight the curiosity is all mine. 29 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: Thank you, Bolle. 30 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: So the recipe that you chose is grilled and roasted 31 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: wild sea bass. Would you like to read the recipe? 32 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: Sure a lot could have chosen fifteen different things. I'm 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: just delighted on this because I like it's kind of simplicity. 34 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: Grilled and rose did wild sea bass serves four to 35 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: six one three kilogram wild sea bass. Two tablespoons fennyl seeds, 36 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 2: two lemons, sliced parsley stalks, fresh fennel bulbs, trimmed and sliced, 37 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 2: juice of one lemon, seventy five mil white wine, and 38 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 2: extra virgin olive oil. Preheat oven to two hundred degrees. 39 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: Season the inside of the fish with fennel seeds and 40 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: season well. Brush the skin with olive oil, and grill 41 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,399 Speaker 2: on a cast iron, ridged or oven grill for five 42 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: to six minutes on each side. Put the lemon, parsley, 43 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 2: remaining fennel seeds in a roasting tin and lay the 44 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: sea bass over. Drizzle the lemon juice, olive oil, white wine, 45 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: and the remaining herbs and vegetables. Bake for thirty minutes 46 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 2: or until the fish is firm to the touch, delicious 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 2: with salsa verdi. 48 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: Thank you. I was really really pleased that you chose 49 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: this recipe because it's two methods. It's grilled, so you 50 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: have the chargrill on the outside, but then you have 51 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: the juiciness of actually taking it. Was there a reason 52 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 1: you chose it or did you just? 53 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: I often, if I'm in a restaurant, will order fish, 54 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: just simple fish, and especially when when you if you 55 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: get a nice white fish, which I've just been in 56 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: Greece recently and they do that very well. You know, 57 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: take it from the sea and it's it's a white fish. 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: You add a little bit of olive oil and lemon 59 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: and it's it's it's very simple, but it's beautiful and tasty. 60 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I mean, that is the difference I think 61 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: between Greek, Mediterranean food Italian of the South of France 62 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: is that there's not a lot of sauce. You know, 63 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: you just have the great ingredient and then you trust 64 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: it to be It's. 65 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, and I think it's it's you know, it's 66 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: fantastic when you're the food is just very simple but 67 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: well cooked, well prepared, and you know, it's things like 68 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: if you even if you're like a tomato salad, it's 69 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: a very simple thing. But if the tomatoes are really 70 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: nice and it's done with a nice dressing on it, 71 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: I mean it's beautiful. So I'm I'm not a great 72 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: one for very fancy sources, to be honest. 73 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: Although sometimes to go to Paris and have a delicious, 74 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: well kind of turbot with the bourblog not that. 75 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 2: And by the way, one thing I always say to 76 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: people because sometimes people say to me, what's your favorite 77 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: type of cooking? Yeah, and I say I don't have one. Yeah, 78 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: I mean I like good food. I appreciate good food. 79 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 2: And I could eat Thai, I could eat Japanese and 80 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: eat French, I could eat Italian, I could eat Greek, 81 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: and I could eat English or Scottish. 82 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: So Downing Street is in office, it's a public space, 83 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: it's a governmental space, but it's also a home. And 84 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: you were there with young children and you presumably they 85 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: came home from school and you sat down to me 86 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: or did you not. Did you have a certain way 87 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: that this was work and then you would have family 88 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: time at the weekends. Was there a sort of routine 89 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: or structure for being a family. 90 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 2: Or before going into Downing Street. I mean, we did 91 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 2: have a much more structured life, but then once you've 92 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 2: become premnise to frankly, your schedules just packed, and so 93 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 2: at the weekends usually when we were through and checkers, 94 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,239 Speaker 2: we would eat all together and that would be great, 95 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: But otherwise it was pretty hand to mouth. When my 96 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 2: kids knew I was coming on this podcast, they said 97 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: to me, are you going to tell them that you 98 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 2: used to cook for us and that your cooking was terrible? 99 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: And I said, well, now, what I might just do 100 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: is just say that the meals I cooked for my 101 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: children were memorable. Memorable, believe it at that? So yeah, 102 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: I mean no, Downing Street was just too busy. 103 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: There wasn't a Maybe there still isn't a Downing Street 104 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: chef that hooks bakfast lunch and there wasn't I know 105 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 1: at the White House they have the residents, and I 106 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: know that the State Department is very careful with ambassadors 107 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 1: about what they can spend on parties and food. But 108 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: to have the Office of the Prime Minister, you would 109 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: think that there was a yeah. 110 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 2: And by the way, in our embassies you can eat 111 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: very well in British embassies abroad in the Elisa you get. 112 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 2: I think it's a high quality for naturally and very 113 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: traditional French cooking. 114 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: You didn't give very many state dinners at Downing Street 115 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: that you would know. 116 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: I didn't. 117 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: At the Palace, I. 118 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 2: Almost took the view with we didn't. I mean occasionally 119 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 2: I would do it and if someone really wanted to 120 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: have a dinner. But I with other political leaders, I mean, 121 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: I just know what I feel like. You know, when 122 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: you're engaged with the political leader, I mean, you know, 123 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: maybe you have a drink together and so on, and 124 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 2: maybe you do have a meal together occasionally, but you 125 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 2: want to do business. You want to sort out the 126 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,119 Speaker 2: business of the day. And then if you're a foreign 127 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: leader and you're visiting and you're in London, and you know, 128 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 2: maybe Franklin would like to go out and spend some 129 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 2: time with you, your friends or colleagues, and rather than 130 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: be within the formality of these dinners, which on the 131 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: whole I never felt yielded a great deal. 132 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: Was there any in your memory that wasn't in China 133 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: or in Russia, or in Germany or France. Was there 134 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: a steak dinner that really well brings in memory? 135 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: There wasn't a state dinners where the head of state, 136 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: So the only state dinner in the UK would be 137 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: the Queen obviously giving the dinner, and where again the 138 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: food is pretty good actually, but I do remember one 139 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: really memorable meal. So France and the UK and Germany 140 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: we were all together in this consort HM to build 141 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: the airbus three eighty okay, and we visited Toulouse, which 142 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: is where part of the plane was being built, and 143 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: so the leaders all went there, and she actually was 144 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: the president at the time, and I remember we after 145 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 2: we visited the plant and saw the plane and so on, 146 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: we sat down and we had a I think they 147 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,679 Speaker 2: called it a cash It was complete. 148 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: What was it like? 149 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 2: What was was just with with the beans and the beans, yeah, 150 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: and the sausage and it was unbelievably good. And the 151 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: funny thing was, so Jacques Shiaq, who's you know, a big, 152 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: big figure and someone I actually, despite our disagreements politically 153 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 2: from time to time, I liked greatly. But the strange 154 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: thing about Jacques was he didn't drink wine. He's a 155 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: French president, didn't drink wine wine, and I don't think 156 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: it was very interested in food. I mean, I'm and 157 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: so I was saying to it this. He was talking 158 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 2: to me about the airbus three eighty and I was 159 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: saying to him, Jacques, you gotta understand this food is 160 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: absolutely unbelievable. And I think he's always a bit eccentric 161 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 2: after a time, because I was calling the chef over 162 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 2: and talking to him and saying like, okay, that is 163 00:08:59,440 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 2: a memorable. 164 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: I went to Richard and I were living in Paris 165 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,719 Speaker 1: and David Owen was given a dinner at the k 166 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: Doors and we were invited. We've been to various dinners here, 167 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: but that one was there was a footman behind every plasma. 168 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: Everyone had their own liveried footman behind you in the service, 169 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: and the grandeur of the palace was it was something 170 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: to behold. What about in Buckingham Palace? Was that more? 171 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: Did you ever have to have the Queen to Downing 172 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: Street or would you always go to the palace? 173 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: Well, we did once at the Queen to Downing Street 174 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: when all myself and the other prime ministers people have 175 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: been prime minister, we all had a dinner with her. 176 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 2: She said, well you all know each other anyway, But yeah, 177 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: that was I don't remember the details of it. 178 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: And now on your travels, you know, coming up to now, 179 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: do you have a kind of ROUTINEO Do you have 180 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: a way that you eat when you're traveling when you 181 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: know you're taking a long flight? Do you eat on 182 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: the flight or do. 183 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 2: You mean will I mean I will eat on the flight. 184 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: But I think if I go to anywhere, I mean, 185 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 2: you know, for example, in the Middle East, I will 186 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: try and if I've got some spare time, then I 187 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 2: would try and have a dinner in a good restaurant. 188 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: And what is it like the food is it? 189 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 2: I mean a lot of the restaurants you get in 190 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: the in the Middle East will be restaurants where they're 191 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: serving international food if you like. But I think one 192 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: thing that's happening around the world is a lot of 193 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: you know, you get emerging new cooks and chefs cooking 194 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: traditional food from their culture, but they're doing it in 195 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: a much more innovative and exciting and interesting way. I 196 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 2: had a actually a great meal not so long ago. 197 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: Because my institute now works in over forty different countries, 198 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 2: we're very busy around the different parts of the world, 199 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: and we've we have project in Guyana and there was 200 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: a restaurant there that it was suggested I went to 201 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: because I said, I knew I had an evening free 202 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 2: in the capital city, and so I said, it's a 203 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 2: really good restaurant eating And they said, well, you know, 204 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: there's this place in the place, but the very best 205 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: food is this place the backyard. But it's not suitable 206 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 2: for you because it is literally a backyard. I mean 207 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 2: it's someone's it's a small house and it's the backyard. 208 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: It was a backyard. But the chef was fantastic. There 209 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 2: were fruits that I'd literally never tasted before, and the 210 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 2: food was just exceptional. And I think wherever you are 211 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 2: in the in the world, you can today you will 212 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: find people who are innovating in food. And I think 213 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 2: it's a very you know, it's a very good and 214 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 2: healthy thing. And I often say to the leaders I'm 215 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: dealing with, if you are giving a dinner for visiting 216 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: foreign leaders, serve your local produce and your local cuisine, 217 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 2: don't you know. I remember when I first went to China. 218 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 2: Used to go there and they would serve you Western food. 219 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: They'd serve you a very sad looking lamb chop, and 220 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 2: I in the conversation with him, saying, you've got one 221 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 2: of the great cuisines of the world. Serve that, which 222 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: I think they do far more now. But it's an 223 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 2: important thing if you want to showcase your country. The 224 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: cuisine is an important part of the culture. 225 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: The River Cafe Cafe are all day space and just 226 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: steps away from the restaurant is now open in the 227 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: morning an Italian breakfast with cornetti, chiambella and crostada from 228 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: our pastry kitchen. In the afternoon, ice creamed coops and 229 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: River Cafe classic desserts. We have sharing plates Salumi, misti, mozzarella, 230 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: brusquetto red and yellow peppers, fortello, tonato and more. Come 231 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: in the evening for cocktails with our resident pianist in 232 00:12:53,080 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: the bar. No need to book. See you here. You 233 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: grew up in Edinburgh, right, well. 234 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: I went to I was born in Edinburgh, I went 235 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 2: to school in Edinburgh. My family came from Ireland, but 236 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 2: we spent a lot of time in Glasgow, so it 237 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: was and then Durham in the northeast, so we were 238 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: kind of a bit of a mix. 239 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: And what was the food your memories of food in 240 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: your house? Who cooked? 241 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,599 Speaker 2: So my mother cooked? And I mean I knew it 242 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: was coming on the podcast and going to speak to you. 243 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: I could remember some things. And then I asked my 244 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: brother and my sister for the any of their memories, 245 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: and oh, my good. As a whole there was a 246 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: whole explosion of yeah, yeah, so and I completely forgotten 247 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: things like my mum cooked curries, which is quite unusual 248 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 2: for British people to do in the nineteen sixties. She 249 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 2: introduced me to cachery. She did a wonderful toad in the. 250 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: Hole sausage with kind. 251 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the classics she had. 252 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: She did she have a career, did she work? 253 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: No? But she was actually a super good cook. Yeah. 254 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: Sounds like in your house, what would you do? Come 255 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: home and start doing your homework and then have dinner 256 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: around the table or every night. You'd have to know 257 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: pretty much. 258 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 2: And I always remember when we would go in the 259 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: seaside was not so far away from us, in the 260 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 2: northeast of England, and we'd occasionally go up to from 261 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: Durham to Northumberland and go by the seaside and the 262 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: great treat was to stab fish and chips in the 263 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: in the car at the end of the of a 264 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 2: day when usually it was too cold to swim. But yeah, 265 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: but she was interested in food and all sorts of 266 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: memories came back about tell me pineapple upside down cake, 267 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: baked Alaska she did, which is actually quite I think 268 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 2: quite difficult to do probably, But. 269 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: What would that be? 270 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: What year? 271 00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: What decade was that? 272 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: It's all been the sixties, early seventies. 273 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: And would she have come from a home that cared 274 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: about food or. 275 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: Well, she came from her father who died when she 276 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: was quite young, was a farmer, actually a Protestant farmer 277 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: in the south of Ireland or in the Republic of Isoland. 278 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: And then when he died, her mother remarried a butcher 279 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: in Glasgow. So we always had you know. 280 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: Good that was your step grandfather. 281 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was my step grandfather. And I remember he'd 282 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: had an accident when he was young, so he was 283 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: he had hit a limp and walk with a stick. 284 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: And some of my earliest memories were going down to 285 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 2: the Glasgow meat market with him when he would go 286 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: and you know, you go down these great rows of 287 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: carcasses hung up and he would tap them with his 288 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: stick and decide which ones he wanted to take his business. So, yeah, 289 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: they say, And my grandmother cooked as well. You know, 290 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: she cooked stews, roasts, I mean, very traditional stuff. 291 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: But to grab in a house where one night you 292 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: had bachel ask and one night you heard pineapple offside 293 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: down cake and tone on the whole and a curry 294 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: so it was a currie. Do you think that was 295 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: just from her ambition to cook or did she Yeah? 296 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 2: And I think it was because she was I mean, 297 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 2: I mean I think at the time not many people 298 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: were making curries. I mean obviously later it became completely different. 299 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: I think she had the funny credit cookbook. Yes that's mine. 300 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: I have a chef here who has said that she 301 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: was from Wales. In her she and her mother entertained 302 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: she had to do those kind of rolls of butter, 303 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: and there was a kind of I think there was 304 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: probably a resurgence you know, of cooking maybe in the 305 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: sixties after also probably after the terribleness of rationing. 306 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were rationing the war. Yeah, but people people did. 307 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: The great leap forward in Britain I think came later 308 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: the late days nineties. It really started then and then yeah, 309 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: because I mean Britain say you can eat well. But 310 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 2: there was a time when Franklin it was a struggle. 311 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: But I never come down hard on British for that 312 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: because they did come from a war and they came 313 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: from rushing, and so I always say cut them some 314 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: slack when people say how food bad food was until yeah. 315 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 2: It was also I think there was this thing at 316 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 2: the time. I remember I used to have this debate 317 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: quite often because I represented then a Northeast constituency near 318 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: to where I was brought up. And you know, now 319 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: it is much much better, by the way, but at 320 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 2: the time when I first came there, I mean, the 321 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 2: food was poor. And I used to have this debate 322 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 2: with people where they'd say, yeah, but you know, working 323 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: class people, they're not so interested in fancy food and 324 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: all the rest of it, And I was just say, 325 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 2: I can't believe anyone's my interest in food. And you know, 326 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 2: it's a ridiculous piece of snobbery to think that if 327 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: you come from working class background, Okay, maybe you can't 328 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 2: afford some of the fancy dishes, but why would you 329 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: want to eat bad food rather than good. 330 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: For And it's very patronizing and as you say. 331 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 2: And it turns out it's wrong because now a lot 332 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 2: of these places have got good, good pubs, restaurants and do. 333 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: Well did you go out to restaurants as a child? 334 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,959 Speaker 1: Would your parents take you out occasionally? They for special 335 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: occasions or would. 336 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: You but yeah, we'd have to be pretty special occasion. 337 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: And then when we would go on a holiday to France, 338 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 2: for example, we would we would eat in restaurants there 339 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 2: and that was that was great. 340 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: That So your parents took you to Europe? Did you 341 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: as a child? All three of you? 342 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, well three of us, and we would drive down 343 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: there and usually rent a little place. And certainly then 344 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: in a lot of the small villages. We used to 345 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: go to the Pyrenees a lot, and the small villages 346 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 2: there you would you would go to a restaurant that 347 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 2: wouldn't really be a menu. You just sometimes you'd sit 348 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 2: at a long table and they'll just be whatever they had, 349 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: But it was always good. 350 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: What did your father do? What was his? What was his? 351 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 2: So my father was a lawyer. He was also an 352 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: aspiring politician, and he was a conservative in fact, and 353 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: he was head of the local Conservative association. And then 354 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 2: just before the nineteen sixty four election, he was going 355 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: to become an MP. He'd been selected for a good 356 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 2: Conservative seat and unfortunately he had a very serious stroke 357 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: that kind of ended his career all together. How old 358 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 2: was he He was forty. 359 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: Now hit a stroke when he was forty. 360 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 2: How old are you ten? So it was quite a 361 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 2: big moment for our family, obviously, because all our circumstances 362 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 2: changed overnight. But I know he then lived for another 363 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 2: almost half century. 364 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: Actually I was able to travel to France and take 365 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: you on trip. 366 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean he never fully recovered, but he recovered 367 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: enough to better work again and so on. But I 368 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,239 Speaker 2: remember conversations around the table. My earliest political conversations were 369 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 2: around that table where they have aspiring conservative politicians would 370 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 2: come and pay him a visit because they would want 371 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: nominations in the local constituencies. And so on, usually young 372 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 2: conservative those who wanted to be MPs. So some of 373 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 2: my earliest conversations around politics, which is absorbing that, I guess. 374 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, as a child to be around the table. I 375 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: did an interview with Valerie Biden, President Biden's sister, and 376 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: she described having that that was orchestrated in a very 377 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: there were I think six children, There was a very 378 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: Catholic Irish family, you know, and that every night there 379 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,479 Speaker 1: was a conversation about a political issue. Did that meals 380 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: around the table? Did that matter to you? 381 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was, it was. I guess my 382 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: earliest political memories were doing that. I mean I wasn't 383 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: particularly part of the conversation that I was just listening 384 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 2: to it, but I was aware of it, and I 385 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 2: remember things from it. And I remember some of the people. 386 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: That came and your mother would cook them and the 387 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: children would be there'd be present. 388 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: I mean I was sort of feeling that my mum 389 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: was not fully signed up to the conservative course. Actually yeah, 390 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 2: I mean she never sort of expressed a view particularly 391 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 2: on it, but that was always my impression. But you know, 392 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 2: the food to which would cook the food. 393 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: Obviously when you were young, we went to boarding school 394 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: at what age thirteen? Was that a big change for 395 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: you to go from these very domestic, cozy dinners, family 396 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: dinners to a boarding school. 397 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 2: I mean the absence of good food was only one 398 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: of the changes, as it were. It was quite a 399 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 2: I mean, look, I always say to be like, I 400 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 2: got a good education at the school, so I'm grateful 401 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 2: to the school for that. But the food was awful. 402 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 2: I'm afraid the only thing they could get just about 403 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 2: got right was the breakfast because you got porridge because 404 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 2: it was a Scottish school. And the one thing I 405 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: do remember is that the bread rolls that they would 406 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: have would usually be fresh. The breakfast went too bad, 407 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 2: but some of the other meals. 408 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: Did they force you to eat as well? 409 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 2: Did you have to did you have to finish for 410 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 2: you when you're a young teenager growing up hungry? So 411 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 2: in the annually pretty much enery, which we did, you 412 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 2: know during holiday times of course I'd come back home, 413 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 2: so yeah, and you'd have half terms and I remember 414 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: I also had This is interesting, So my father was 415 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 2: actually brought up as a foster child. He was he 416 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 2: was his real mother left him with someone because she 417 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 2: was on the stage she was an actress and anyways, 418 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: a long story, but he never got given back, so 419 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 2: he stayed with my foster grandmother. But we used to 420 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: go through because the schools in Edinbury used to go 421 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: through to Glasgow where she would live. And she lived 422 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: in one of the corporation flats in Glasgow, and I 423 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 2: remember it was always a treat with her Scotch pie. 424 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: It's kind of like a mutton insider inside a crusty pie, 425 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 2: and you'd have it with baked beans and Scotch pries. 426 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 2: I mean it's years since I've had one, but they 427 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: actually really good, and I remember that you'd have it 428 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 2: hot hot, they'd make you know, it's like the Scottish loads. 429 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: I remember as well. They had a different type of 430 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 2: loaf in Scotland, where the outside of it would be 431 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 2: much the crust would be much firmer and stronger, and 432 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 2: it was very good bread to toast. 433 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: From fatties coming home and going to that school. You 434 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: then took a gap year or what did you do? 435 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 2: I took a gap year. I came down to London 436 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 2: and I did various things, you know, with music. 437 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: But well, tell me what did you do well? 438 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: For a time? I worked in Barker's food store in 439 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 2: town and down in the basement, and then I. 440 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: Was that in Kensington High School. 441 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 2: It was in Kensington High Street. And then I we 442 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 2: myself and a few friends used to manage some groups 443 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 2: and put on some gigs and things, and we started 444 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 2: to make enough money so I could give up the 445 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 2: Barker's job and did that for a year. 446 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: And you had your own flat. And do you remember 447 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: any of the food sperience as your head as a 448 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: young adventurer in London. 449 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: I do remember that. 450 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: I can remember a meal. 451 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: Do remember was that I had a girlfriend whose mum 452 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 2: was a fantastic cook. That's good. Yeah, that was good 453 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: because I wasn't eating a very well during that I 454 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 2: wasn't eating there. I wasn't really eating much at all. 455 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: Do you remember what you ate? What she cooked? 456 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 2: What I remember is that for the first time in 457 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 2: my life I had spinach and broccoli and liked it 458 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 2: because we used to do this strange thing back in 459 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: the old days in Britain where you just boil these things. 460 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 2: You just boil them and they just be there boiled 461 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: and usually over boiled. So it was not a pleasant experience. 462 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: And I remember the first time, thinking it is really tasty, and. 463 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: Of mine was talking about how now that women had careers, 464 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: this is a long time ago, they didn't have time 465 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,199 Speaker 1: to cook and they thought what a sad thing that is. 466 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: But actually vegetables would be better because they wouldn't have 467 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: the time too. For an hour. Hurry up, we only 468 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: have an hour to dinner. 469 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 2: Get the cabbage on, boil them disintegration. Yeah, cabbage was 470 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: the other thing I remember. Yeah, that's right. I remember 471 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: she did the cabbage in her I didn't didn't like 472 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 2: cabbage either, and this was the first time it was 473 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 2: done with her. I can't remember exactly what was in it, 474 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: but I remember tasting and thinking, because I've been school, 475 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 2: cabbage up to them have been my experience. 476 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: Did you but did you ever? We were ever attempted 477 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: to cook at all? 478 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: When you were When I went to university and for 479 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 2: my first period I was it was in the hall, 480 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,479 Speaker 2: and then I shared a house with one of my 481 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: friends and myself and my my friend who was a guy, 482 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 2: and three women, and I remember, you know, we all 483 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 2: sat down and said, right, everyone's taking turns and cooking. 484 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,719 Speaker 2: And I said said, wow, I can't cook, and so 485 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 2: the women said, we're going to show you, so they did. 486 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 2: I remember making stews, the traditional kind of spaghetti, bolignieers 487 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: type stuff, maybe the odd roast, but I needed a 488 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 2: lot of supervision to be to be absolute frank it was, 489 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 2: I should say that I went to We just joined 490 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 2: the European Union in the UK is in the seventies, 491 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 2: and one of the great things was you could just 492 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 2: go and work in any European country. So I decided 493 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 2: to go to Paris. And I just decided to go there. 494 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: I literally went there. I knew someone who was there. 495 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 2: I mean a bit live when I came down to London. 496 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 2: I never really been to London before. I just turned 497 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 2: up and thought, you know, let's get on with it. 498 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 2: And so I went to Paris. I worked in a 499 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: restaurant there, in a hotel, do you remember the name. 500 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 2: The hotel was called the Hotel Superindu La tour was 501 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 2: just by the Eiffel Tower. And I was just I 502 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 2: was a comedy du bar. I was just a you know, waiter. 503 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 2: But in Paris you had well virtually any anywhere and 504 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 2: even in the in the cheapest of restaurants. And then 505 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 2: at the end of my time, because I then did 506 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 2: some sorry this had been nineteen seventy six, I think. 507 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 2: And then I worked for a time for an organization 508 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 2: called the Group DISASSINOLSNACNL, which is which was a nationalized 509 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 2: insurance company. And I remember the great thing was every morning, 510 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 2: I mean I was I was this young guy in 511 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 2: the office and it was just me. I was just 512 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: a gopher in the office, and there would be all 513 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 2: I think there was mean about twenty women in this office. 514 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 2: I don't think. I think I was the only man 515 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 2: who was in there. But every morning, before we settled 516 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 2: down to work, they would discuss the meals they'd had 517 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 2: the night before. I'm just thinking, this is, this is wonderful. 518 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: And I would be sent off to the local patisserie 519 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: to get in a croissant, cakes for everyone. And then 520 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: when I finished that I spent a few weeks, they 521 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: gave me a bonus and I took a bite. You 522 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 2: used to have this thing which you would hire a 523 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 2: bike and have a train ticket at the same time. 524 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 2: And I went down to the door doin and I 525 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 2: cycled round it. And I remember going to places right 526 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 2: up in the in the hills and having these fantastic meals. 527 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: Really really great French, very simple French cooking, and I 528 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 2: think that was when I I'd always been interested in 529 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: but that's when I decided this is something I like, 530 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: so something that matters to me. 531 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: And I think they except, you know, as you say, 532 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: to be able to arrive in a small town in 533 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: the middle of France and have a meal that's care, 534 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: it's part of the culture. Always say that Melbourne has 535 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: a great food culture. But then when you go to 536 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: Paris and the taxi curfer can tell you how to 537 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: poach a seabas or they will tell you in the patisserie, 538 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: there's no your point about fresh bread that if you 539 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: want bread for lunch you go in the morning, and 540 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: you can want bread for dinner you go in the afternoon. 541 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: That was the bigetts. Yeah, and you can have a 542 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: bigette which was crusty or non crusty. You could have 543 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: a croissant that had butter or no butter. It's just 544 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: so imbued when you travel, do you do you think 545 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: about what you're going to eat when you go to. 546 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: Do so With Si, I mean we it was. It's 547 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: always been important to us and when we would go 548 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 2: on holiday particularly, we would always trying to used to 549 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 2: go a lot to France and we get out that 550 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: Michelin Guide with the the restaurants that were not the 551 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 2: Michelin Star ones, but they used to have this thing 552 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 2: called Redar which was good food of reasonable prices, and 553 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: it was my job was to plan out the itinerary 554 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: for eating out. 555 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: If you like listening to Ruthie's Table for would you 556 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: please make sure to rate and review the podcast on 557 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, O, wherever you get your podcasts. 558 00:29:54,560 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: Thank you. We would be a missed opportunity if we 559 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: didn't talk about food and politics, and we were talking 560 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: about Jamie Oliver and his campaign for school food. You 561 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: know that there's a great poster saying today four hundred 562 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: thousand children in Britain will have the same thing for dinner. 563 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: Nothing. 564 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: And we found out during COVID when kids didn't go 565 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: to school, that they weren't being fed and that we 566 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,479 Speaker 1: live in a country, or we live in a world 567 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: where we know that there is food inequality. And I 568 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: know you're dealing a lot with climate. Is that a 569 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: concern of yours? 570 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I think one of the reasons why 571 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 2: when I was in government we did a lot on 572 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 2: early years education, sure start and school meals. Indeed with 573 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 2: Jamie is because could you not go to school and 574 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 2: be hungry, because they won't learn so well, And to 575 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 2: give them an appreciation of good food early and healthy 576 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 2: food is important. It's going to be important for their 577 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: later life. And I think we know much more about 578 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 2: nutrition today than we ever used to, so I think 579 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 2: there's a lot you can do there, and then on 580 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: a more kind of global scale with some of the 581 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: work we do with governments. For example, the new president 582 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 2: in Indonesia, his principal program is all around school meals 583 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: for children, and I think there's a recognition in countries 584 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 2: where previously there wasn't of the importance of this. But 585 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 2: I also think there's a whole set of policies around 586 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: famine and agriculture which we can develop with the use 587 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 2: of technology to a much much better degree today. And 588 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 2: there are still many of the countries we work in 589 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 2: in Africa, because we're in roughly twenty different countries in 590 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 2: Africa and we work with the governments there, But I 591 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 2: would say large numbers of those countries will import a 592 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 2: lot of basic food stuffs when they've got a large 593 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,719 Speaker 2: amount of arable land, and then one thing that's in 594 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,719 Speaker 2: a way almost worse because it deprives them of income. 595 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 2: And it's something we work on with some kind tries 596 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: is how you add value to the food that you create. 597 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 2: So you will have countries that, for example, will produce 598 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 2: the raw commodity of nuts, but then they will be 599 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: sent to Vietnam or to India to process and then 600 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 2: come back into that country, and obviously then it's not 601 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 2: merely that you're losing the income from that, but you're 602 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: losing the higher value added skills that come with that, 603 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 2: and thatfore your economy really suffers. So there's a whole 604 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 2: series of things I think we need to do today 605 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 2: around food, how we grow it, where we grow it. 606 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: I think there'll be a lot of work done on 607 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: drought resistant crops, which are going to be necessary for 608 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 2: the future because of climate is changing. And how you 609 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: raise productivity when you look at different countries equal potential, 610 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 2: but one country will be producing from the same land 611 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 2: four or five times the amount of crops. 612 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: And so this brings us to your book on leadership, 613 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: Tony Blair, Lessons for the twenty first Century. So this 614 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: is a book that was published in September, I would 615 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: love you to tell us about it. 616 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's an unusual book in a wait because 617 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: when I said to the publishers, I want to write 618 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: a book about the lessons I've learned from governing and leadership, 619 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 2: not just in my time as Prime Minister, but in 620 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 2: the work that i've been doing now for the last 621 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 2: seventeen years with governments around the world. And I think 622 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 2: they struggled at first to think of whether a book 623 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: on governing could be of any interest to anyone. But 624 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 2: I've tried to write it therefore, in a style that 625 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 2: is short chapters, just about what I think of the 626 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 2: lessons of leadership and really apply whether you're in government 627 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 2: or you're running a country, a company, a community center. 628 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: Family, Yeah, parenting, parenting. 629 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 630 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: I was reading it and I thought these are someone 631 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: else said that to me. Actually, yeah, about listening, about 632 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: being honest, this is about family, to be about friends. 633 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 2: Well, most of the learnings have come through mistakes. I 634 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 2: have to say. When you come into a position of leadership, 635 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: when you first come in, you know you know nothing, 636 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 2: so you're very open to learning. The second stage of 637 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 2: leadership is you've then got your feet under the table. 638 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 2: You've been doing a whole lot of stuff, and the 639 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 2: risk is you think you know everything and you stop listening. 640 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 2: The thing that you should aspire to is to get 641 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 2: to the third stage of leadership, where you realize what 642 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 2: you do know and you realize what you don't know, 643 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 2: you understand the difference, and you're back to listening again. 644 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 2: And it's the dangerous when you get stuck on two. 645 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: I have to say that when we knew that we 646 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: had to close the restaurant for COVID, and we didn't 647 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: know where to know how we do it, and I thought, 648 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,720 Speaker 1: we have to get all the staff together, it's about 649 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: leadership and tell them that they're not going to come 650 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: to work. We don't know for how long, in weeks 651 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: or months or this was such a serious thing that 652 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: what we were going to do and how are we 653 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: going to do it? And so we said, okay, get 654 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: everyone to come in at four o'clock and we'll sit down. 655 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: And I went, I googled how to tell yourself bad news. 656 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess what. 657 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: Harvard Business School I told you. Of course, how to 658 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: give your staff bad news. 659 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 2: You know, the. 660 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,720 Speaker 1: First thing you do is tell them what's going to happen. 661 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: Then you tell them. Step two is how it will 662 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: affect them, and then number three was what you're going 663 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: to do to help them. It was just but as 664 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: you say, I've been working in this restaurant for a 665 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: long time, and you say, the first step is to 666 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: know that you know, and then the second one is 667 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,959 Speaker 1: to know that you don't know, and the third one 668 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: is to get some help. So I think it's a 669 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: very very important book and everybody listening should buy it 670 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: and read it and write to me and tell me 671 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: how much you like it. When we're going to eat 672 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: in the river Cuft have dinner, but before you do go, 673 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: we do have a question that we do ask everyone, 674 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: and it is about food. Is teaching about the culture. 675 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: If food is feeding your children or going to a 676 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: state dinner, or entertaining the queen. It's also comfort when 677 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: you do need comfort for it. Is there a food 678 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: that you would actually go to. 679 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 2: I would go for something very simple. I still can 680 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 2: cook a decent omelet. I would do that 681 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,320 Speaker 1: Probably tell me that and the bread would be fresh, 682 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: The bread would definitely be Thank you, Jim