1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Have you ever been to Vegas? 2 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: Because I have and it's awesome and beautiful and crazy. 3 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: And when you see it on TV, you know you 4 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: even hear Elva singing Viva Las Vegas. It's just so fantastical, 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: like a dreamland. But for one high stakes poker player, 6 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: a well known female star on the poker circuit, that 7 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: dream turns to a nightmare. I'm Nancy Grace. This is 8 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,319 Speaker 1: crime Stories. First of all, take a listen to our 9 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: friends at w D I V. A couple of are 10 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: driving down masa day road. Here is that approaches crossroad 11 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: in White Lake Township when they made the awful discovery 12 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: yesterday morning. On the right here in this parking area, 13 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: they saw the lifeless body burnt beyond recognition. Cars parked 14 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: there is a trailhead for people to go hiking into 15 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: the pinecla. The area was quickly cordoned off as investigators 16 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: from White Lake and Oakland County Schraf's Department set about 17 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: their investigation. Who is she? How did she get here? 18 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: How did she die? This is a sparsely traveled stretch 19 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: of road near the west end of Oakland County Airport. 20 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: Please tell us. They have little to go on. They're 21 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: asking for your help. They have checked local missing person's reports, 22 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: but with no matches. They're asking a few residents in 23 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: the area for their help ring door bells, outside surveillance systems, 24 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: anything that potentially would have caught any possible lead that 25 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: we could use. Again. This victim killed, bought here and 26 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: set ablaze. So to be a female between twenty and 27 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: thirty years of age, about five ft thirty five pounds. 28 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: How did a female poker star end up burned to 29 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: a charred remain her body in a remote area. This 30 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: is a woman that had been on TV that was 31 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: really the darling of the gambling world. With me an 32 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: all star panel to break it down and put it 33 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: back together again. You've all Bronstein, friend of Susie known 34 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: as Susie Q in the circuit Nima Romani la California, 35 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor. He's seen it all. President of West 36 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: Coast Trial Lawyers and renowned civil attorney. Forensic psychiatrist doctor 37 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: Daniel Bober joining us and boy do I need a shrink? 38 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: You can find him on instat at doctor Daniel Bober. 39 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: James shell Nutt twenty seven years Metro major case now 40 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: lawyer at shell Nut Law Firm dot com. Doctor Elaine Pope, 41 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: Forensic Anthropologist, Autopsy Supervisor, Office of Chief Medical Examiner, Norfolk, Virginia, 42 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: and you can find doctor Pope at burned Bone dot com. 43 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: Let me just warn you her nickname is the Dame 44 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,119 Speaker 1: of Flame. But first to crime online dot com investigative 45 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: reporter Levi Page Levi before you get started, to take 46 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: a listen to our friend Charlie Langton at Fox two. 47 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: The remains of a thirty three year old woman from 48 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: Waterford Township so badly burned have now been identified. The 49 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: individual was Suzie Zow. Susie was found by a resident 50 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: at eight oh five of the morning on July thirteenth 51 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: in White Lake Township near Mason Day Road and Crossroad. 52 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: It's a semi remote state park area. There's a little 53 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: parking lot there. But why she was so badly burned 54 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: and when she disappeared is still a mystery at the 55 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: determine whether or not this is a cover up or 56 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: this maybe some sort of retaliatory incident because of her profession. 57 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: Seems Susie was a professional poker player and had been 58 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: living out a state in California for a while. She 59 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: didn't really share a lot of that information with us. 60 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: She was a very private person. Yes, the entire time 61 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: we've known her. Yep, she was always a little bit 62 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: of a mystery. Her friends speaking today remembering Susie but 63 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: also questioning what happened. If anybody knows anything, they need 64 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: to come forward. This is not right, This is not 65 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: something that I don't know. They need to come forward, 66 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: will say, though, And a high stakes poker world, a 67 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: lot of secrets are being kept straight out to Levi Page, 68 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: crime online dot Com investigative reporter, the first thing I 69 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: want to ask you is about where she was found. 70 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: That I'm going to back it up to doctor Elaine 71 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: Pope for instaganthropologists to determine when she was found owned 72 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: versus when she was killed. Leavi Page, tell me about 73 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: the area. I know this is a semi remote area 74 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: of a state park, but what more do we know? 75 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: So Nancy Pontiac Lake Recreation Area. It's remote, it's wooded, 76 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: it has a lot of walking and hiking trails. It's 77 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: like a place, you know, where I would take my 78 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: dog if I lived near there, to go walking. And 79 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: that is where her body was found. It was found 80 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: right after eight am by two men that were on 81 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: their way to work. Now, let me understand something. You said. 82 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: It's a place that you might take your dog. That 83 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: means easily accessible, like trails where people would go. Or 84 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: are we talking so remote that it's a place you'd 85 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: have to hike too. Well, it had a parking area 86 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: so you could easily get to it, and the trails 87 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: were easily accessible. They were well manicured. The trails were 88 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: very visible. It was not trails that you had to 89 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: hunt through a lot of weeds and woods to find. Mind, 90 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: I'm curious about Pontiac Lake Queis that exactly, Nancy? It 91 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: is about thirty miles outside of Detroit. Thirty miles outside 92 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: of Detroit. You know, joining me right now is a 93 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: special guest you've all Bronstein, friend of Susie Zoo also 94 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: known as Susie Q in the gambling world. All. How 95 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: did you know Susie? I met Susie over ten years ago. 96 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,119 Speaker 1: We were both out in Vegas for the World Series 97 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 1: of Poker and we met playing a cash game and 98 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: ended up who Slow it down? Friend? Slow it down? Okay? 99 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: You met playing a what a cash game? During the 100 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: World Series of Poker in Las Vegas. Okay, what's that like? 101 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: I've always wondered because I've seen it on TV and 102 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: I try to read everyone's faces just out of you know, 103 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: professional curiosity. Tell me about this is a cash game. 104 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: When you say cash game, how much you talk talking 105 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: about For this particular game, I think the buying was minimum, 106 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: maybe two thousand dollars. I would usually buy in for 107 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: about ten thousand dollars this game. Um, it was a 108 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: pretty big game. I guess how much could you win 109 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: in it? Well, I mean theoretically, I guess like maybe 110 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: ten or twenty thousand dollars in a day. Wow, you 111 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: play all day? Well, now, let me ask you this 112 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: about Susie. How did she get the nickname Susie Q. 113 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: I don't know the origin of that name. I guess 114 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: it just fitted her. Yep. And you say you met 115 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: her at a cash game in Vegas. What was she like? 116 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: What drew you to her? She was just smiling the 117 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: whole time, and she was really friendly and u and 118 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: she was really smart, like she was one of the 119 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: big winners in the game, and she was just really cool. So, um, 120 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: she and I just kind of became friends restently, and 121 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: we need a hang out a lot. You know, did 122 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: date her, No, we were just friends. Was she dating anyone? 123 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: M Well, since I met her, she dated several people 124 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: on and off, but I think at the time I 125 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: met her, she wasn't. When she would date people, would 126 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: they also be in the poker world, the gambling world. 127 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: She would tell me about some of her She told 128 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: me about some of the guys she dated, and they were, 129 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: like she said, they played poker, but they weren't any 130 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: well known players. I didn't know any of them. They did, 131 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: they play professionally, they just weren't famous. Yeah, I guess 132 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 1: you could say that Crime stories with Nancy Grace, guys 133 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about. I'm looking at her photo right now. 134 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: She's just absolutely stunning. Her name is Susie Zoo, just 135 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: a little bit over thirty years old, and had climbed 136 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: her way up amongst the ranks of professional poker players, 137 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: a world that is shrouded in mystery to most of 138 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: us and involves all sorts of maneuvers, keeping secrets, gambling secrets, 139 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: being able to bluff. But she couldn't bluff her way 140 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: out of this. Her body is found burned to a 141 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: crisp in a state park, a semi remote state park 142 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: near Pontiac Lake. Straight out to doctor Elaine Pope for 143 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: insta anthropologist. You can find her at burnedbone dot com. 144 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: Right there that made me look it up. Her nickname 145 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: the Dame of Flame. Doctor Pope. Let me first ask you, 146 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: how did you get the nickname the Dame of Flame? 147 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: Just years of research of my specialty, which is examining 148 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: how the human body burn It was just kind of 149 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: a nickname that's been dubbed over the years. You know, 150 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: doctor Pope. When I was a little girl, I did 151 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: not dream of trumping through crime scenes and going through 152 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: the crime lab and autopsies and looking at dead bodies 153 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: lying in the floor and elsewhere. That was not my 154 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: dream growing up. You know. I thought I was going 155 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 1: to write books and ride horses. Doctor Pope, did you 156 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: actually think dream of analyzing how the human body burned 157 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: as a child or did it just happen over time? Oh, 158 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: it just happened over time. I'm glad to hear that. 159 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear that that's not what you dreamed 160 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: of when you were five years old. So, doctor Pope, 161 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: for instance, canthropologists, Autopsy Supervisor, Office Chief Medical Examiner. How 162 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: hard is it to burn a human body? Completely burn it? Well, 163 00:10:55,360 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: it takes the important things is it takes fuel and time. 164 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: Regarding this case, I don't have information about whether she 165 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: was in a vehicle or outside, and those those two 166 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: different environments would create very different outcomes in terms of 167 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: this type of damage that the body would incur during burning. Say, 168 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: for example, on a vehicle, it's a closed environments which 169 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: would retain heat more efficiently than just say an outdoor setting, 170 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: and so so the burn patterns would be very different, 171 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: you know, depending on the actual circumstances in which she 172 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: was burned. Let's go, do you leave ipage crime online 173 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: dot com investigator reporter, what can you tell me about 174 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: the discovery of her body? Was the vehicle burned or 175 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: just her nancy? Law enforcement has not given a lot 176 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: of information. We do know that her vehicle, her vehicle 177 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: was not found near the crime scene, and we know 178 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: that two men discovered the body right after eight am. 179 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: And that's something to wake up too. I do not 180 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: think that the vehicle itself was burned, So doctory Lane Pope? 181 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: What does that mean to you that the vehicle may 182 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: not have been burned, just her body without a vehicle. 183 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: In an outdoor fire setting, the burn patterns would be um, 184 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: you know, localized to the body. UM, in terms of 185 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: you know, it would um, the damage would be um, 186 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: you know, around the body on the body, um, you know, 187 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: and and so those those would be very different burn 188 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: patterns than if she was burned entirely inside. Okay, we're 189 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: now getting an update, doctory Lane Pope that the body 190 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: was not in the vehicle, it was out in the open. 191 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: We've been getting conflicting reports on that. But you know, 192 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: one of the things I noticed to you, James shell 193 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: Nutt twenty seven years Metro major case now lawyer James 194 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: shell Nutt. I noticed where one of the investigators made 195 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: a public comment and said, we don't know if the 196 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: scene was staged. Yeah, it was staged. She wasn't burned 197 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: there by the road or else. There would be a 198 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: huge burn pit and you would see evidence of her 199 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 1: having been burned there. So any movement of the body 200 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: post mortem is staging. All right. She did not fall 201 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: go walking and fall over and have spontaneous combustion, so 202 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: we know the scene was staged. What does that tell you. 203 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: Shell Nutt tells me it wasn't random. But what does 204 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: it tell you. Well, I mean, obviously it tells there 205 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: wasn't a random as well. But you know, somebody's trying 206 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: to cover something up. You know, when people burn a 207 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: body or a car or a house, they're trying to 208 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: hide evidence, any evidence that would link them back to 209 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 1: the scene of the murder. You know, I saw one 210 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: description of this death being a mysterious death. Well, there's 211 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: nothing mysterious about the death except for who did it. 212 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: This is a homicide. This lady was murdered. Somebody burnt 213 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: her body to destroy evidence. Take a listen to our 214 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: friends at Detroit w x y Z seven. This is 215 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: Jim Kurtzner. I can't even think how somebody could do that. 216 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: She was known on the professional poker's circuit as Susie Q. 217 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: Her friends here in Michigan say she started playing poker 218 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: as a team when they grew up in Troy, and 219 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: after college she played in the big games. In this 220 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: one hand in twenty seventeen in Los Angeles, she would 221 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: scoop sixteen thousand dollars. She was a free spirit in 222 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: the truest sense. She played by her own roles. She 223 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: followed her dreams absolutely brilliant. Police say Susie's murder may 224 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: be connected to her gambling in other states, or does 225 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: somebody locally she met with recently? Guys, the burned body 226 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: of a world class female poker players Zaw has been 227 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: confirmed found in a semi remote Michigan part. But what happened? 228 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: Back to you, doctor Elaine Pope forends caanthropologists at burnbone 229 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: dot com. Depending on how badly burned the body is, 230 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: how difficult will it be to determine cause of death 231 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: and how do you do that? That would be done 232 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: at autopsy by the forensic pathologists. Um, they would do 233 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: the external examinations or you know, document the the burn 234 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: damage to all the extremities front back of the body. 235 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: And then the major contribution to the autopsy or by 236 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: the autopsy is examining the internal the organs, any muscles 237 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: that were under protected underneath the burn skin. UM. So 238 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: they the pathologists would look for actual evidence of injury 239 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: as they would with a normal unburned body, so that 240 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: that procedure is pretty much the same. UM that they 241 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: would essentially be looking for any damage to any tissues, 242 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: any structures organ systems, and that would be that would 243 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: be there part of their investigation. Joining me right now, 244 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor, President of West Coast Trial Lawyers, Nima Romani, Nima, 245 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, Thanks Nancy for having men. 246 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: Let me have you act as defense attorney here for 247 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: a moment, because not only did your client murder the 248 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: victim of Susie's now Susie Q, but also went to 249 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: the extent of burning her body, clearly to hide her identity. 250 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: Why else would a definite burn the body? Got any 251 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: ideas on that? Well, I mean, at least to one series, 252 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: you know, hide the evidence and hide her identity. The 253 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: other is to send a message. Right, there's someone who's 254 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: a gambler and this may be gambling related and who 255 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: knows who shield money to Okay, let me ask you something, 256 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: Nemo Romani. You're a very well known defense attorney, former prosecutor. 257 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: Are you telling me you think that happens a lot 258 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: in the world, more than just on movies and in novels. 259 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: Have you ever had a case a revenge murder? I 260 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: have prosecuted a number of revenge murders are prosecuted, a 261 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: number of gambling cases. I mean, gambling is real. These 262 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: debts are real, and the only way that these types 263 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: of folks can make sure they're paid is to let 264 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: others know that if you don't pay, there's going to 265 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: be consequences. But wait a minute, shase the gambler bringing 266 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: in all the money. So based on your premise, Nemo 267 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: Romani with me, that means send a message to who 268 00:17:47,720 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: about what crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking 269 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: about a beautiful young girl, Susie's aw who was a 270 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 1: world class poker player. Her body has just been found 271 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: charred throne on the side of the road in a 272 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: semi remote area outside Pontiac Lake State Park. With me, 273 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. You can find him on 274 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober dot com. Doctor Bober, take a listen 275 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,239 Speaker 1: to our friends at w x y Z seven. She 276 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: came here on June ninth from Los Angeles. You have 277 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: to determine whether or not this is a cover up 278 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: or this maybe some sort of retaliatory incident. Because of 279 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 1: her profession, her friends say she kept details about her 280 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: personal life private from them, but she was there for 281 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: them during special times. I will remember that date, because 282 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: that was the night that I got engaged, and and 283 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: it was a nice tap for there. Everybody loved her. 284 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: Nobody ever remember her fighting with anybody ever, No drama. 285 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: Her body was found burned to death and the Pontiac 286 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: Lake Recreation Area on the morning of July thirteenth. Police 287 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: say she was last seen by her mother the night 288 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: before at five thirty so this is a narrow window. 289 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: Police are asking witnesses to come forward. We still are 290 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: looking for anybody that may have seen or talked to 291 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: Susie between Sunday at about five thirty PM and the 292 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: early hours of Monday morning. First of all, I have 293 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: an issue was saying, is it a cover up? Yes, 294 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: it's a cover up. When you try to destroy a 295 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: body and destroy evidence, you're covering something up. Whenever you 296 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: stage a scene in any way, you're covering something up. 297 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: Even in a case where a mom was murdered at home, 298 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: the adult daughter then prosecuted. The daughter made the scene 299 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,959 Speaker 1: look like someone had come in and stolen, possibly ray 300 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: and murdered the mom. Here's the giveaway. She placed a 301 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: waste basket of trashkin over the mom's head. Why would 302 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: a random killer do that because the scene was staged, 303 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: so there is a cover up. But did you hear 304 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: what else they said? She was found burned to death. 305 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: We don't know that burning was the cod cause of death. 306 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: To you. You've all Bronstein friend off Susie Hughes for 307 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: years now, also a poker player. When you heard the 308 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: female friends say everybody loved her, what was your experience 309 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: with Susie? You've all? Is that true? Us was absolutely 310 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: she was extremely kind and caring and trustworthy and always smiling. 311 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: Everybody loved her and adored her. We all like to 312 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: watch her play on Live at the Bike. Everybody loved Susie. 313 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: Nobody had any problems with her. Why does you love 314 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: to watch her? What about her made it fun? I 315 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: mean I've watched her play online. Yeah, well she she 316 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: was on Live at the Bike and she was basically 317 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: just smiling the whole time, and you could tell she 318 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: was really enjoying it, and you could tell she really 319 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: loves poker. And besides that, she's just a very good player. 320 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: She's somebody you watch play and she makes very good plays. 321 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: And for somebody who appreciates poker, it's enjoyable to watch 322 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: that What's Live at the Bike. Live at the Bike 323 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: is m is a show where they basically invite some 324 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: poker players to come play at the Bicycle Casino in 325 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: Los Angeles and then they film it and they stream 326 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: it so you can watch it. Guys. You can see 327 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: her playing at crime online dot com. How common is 328 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: it for a woman to climb the ranks in professional gambling. 329 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: I don't know what the exact for scentages are, but 330 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: they're low for women. There are numerous female players who 331 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 1: are very good and have one big prizes playing poker, 332 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 1: but in general it's dominated by male players. Interesting. Interesting 333 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: and to you, for instance, psychiatrist doctor Daniel Bober, what 334 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: does that tell you a woman and a male dominated 335 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: line of business. I believe that her killer was someone 336 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: that knew her. I'm going to circle back to Nima 337 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: Romani on the retaliation theory, But does that mean that 338 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: most of her associates were men as well? I mean, 339 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: as a prosecutor, there were hardly any other female trial 340 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: lawyers running courtrooms at the time I was prosecuting, so 341 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: most of the people I hung out with were other 342 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: prosecutors males. People at the crime lab mailes. That's just 343 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: the way it was. Does that since most violent crimes 344 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: are committed by men when you work in a male 345 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: dominated field, to me, that would increase your likelihood of 346 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: being a victim of violent crime, just statistically, Doctor Daniel Bober, Yes, Nancy. 347 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously how she lived was connected to how 348 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: she died, and it probably says something about her personality 349 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: to get into such a male dominated field like poker 350 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: and to be able to, you know, excel in that area. 351 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: So obviously, well, what does it say. I don't know 352 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: what you what you mean by that? What do you mean? 353 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: It says something about her personality to be in a 354 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: male dominated field. It says that she has to have 355 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: some backbones, some assertiveness to be able to compete in 356 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: that world and to hold her own and to excel. 357 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: It says something about her personality that she has a 358 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: lot of inner strength to be able to do that. 359 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: You know, she was pulling in about a quarter of 360 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: a meal according to the AP at one point, had 361 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: winning some of them around two hundred grand at the 362 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: World Series of Poker. She made seventy three almost seventy 363 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: four grand at a two thousand and twelve event at 364 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: the World Series of poker. I don't know what the 365 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: professional poker life is like. Let me go back to 366 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: you've all Bronstein, friend of Susie since two thousand and eight. 367 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: Is it like what you see in movies like Ocean's eleven? 368 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: Is that what it's like. No, it's it's absolutely nothing 369 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: like that. And for somebody to go murder somebody over 370 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 1: a debt is basically unprecedented. There are tons of people 371 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: in the poker community who owe each other money. It's 372 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: a very common thing actually, and you know, tons and 373 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,719 Speaker 1: tons of money. I mean some people owe each other 374 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: millions of dollars. You never hear about this happening to somebody. 375 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: Aside from that, I hung out with Susie in January 376 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: was actually the last time I saw her, and she 377 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: never mentioned anything to me about owing anybody money or 378 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: anything like that. And the last thing is, you know, 379 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: the place where she was found, where her parents live. 380 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: I don't believe there is a poker scene there, so 381 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know. I wasn't you know. Okay, 382 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait a minute went you've all yeah, 383 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: I think there's a poker scene everywhere. It may be underground, 384 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,239 Speaker 1: especially in states. Where gambling could be illegal. But I 385 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: find it hard to believe. It's just like saying you 386 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: live in a dry county. You don't, Okay, you just 387 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: pretend that you do. I think there's gambling everywhere. And 388 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: I wonder what if anything that had to do with 389 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: her murder. Did she beat somebody at gambling and they 390 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: owed her a ton of money and wouldn't would not 391 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: agree to pay her. And I want to go back 392 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: to Niema Romani. You know you just heard one of 393 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: the investigators say was her murder retaliates story? So you 394 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,719 Speaker 1: know what, I'm eating a dirt sandwich right now. Because 395 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: you said it could have been sending a message. I said, no, 396 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't. Hey, I still agree. I don't think it's 397 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: sending a message to other people. But you also said 398 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: retaliation Nema, and I pooh pooed it. But is it 399 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: in retaliation for a debt that was owed to her 400 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: or a debt that she owed You've all says he 401 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: didn't know of any debt. She had crime stories with 402 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys were talking about the curious death of 403 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: a female gambling star that had clawed her away up 404 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: the ranks in a male dominated field of world class poker. 405 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: She'd been playing poker since she was in high school. 406 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: She loved it. It was her thing. People loved watching her. 407 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: So why was Susie Zoo found dead? Her body burned 408 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: in a semi remote area near a state park Pontiac Lake, Michigan. 409 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: Back to you, Niema Romani, So you know what as 410 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: I said, I mean in a dirt sandwich. Even if 411 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: the investigators are considering considering retaliation, you know I can't 412 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,239 Speaker 1: dismiss that as well. What did you mean by that? 413 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: You also said you'd had a lot of cases that 414 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: were murders in retaliation. What for drugs? What did you 415 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: mean by that? Gamily related that? So mean a person 416 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: owed money? Yes? Absolutely, he looks. You're talking about a 417 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: woman who's thirty three years old who moved back home 418 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: with her parents. You know, she left her life here 419 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles to move home. So something's going on. 420 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: And her last significant winning was back in two thousand 421 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: and twelve. Okay, I want to follow up on something 422 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: you just said because it's very significant. Uh, You're given 423 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: me a lot of information, Nema. It's like drinking out 424 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: a fire hydra hold on just a moment to you, 425 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: you've all, Bronstein, why did Susie moved back with her mom? 426 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,959 Speaker 1: Was she afraid of something? Um? From what I gathered, Basically, 427 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: at this point in her poker career, it wasn't going 428 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: well for her and she had lost her bank roll 429 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: and she was kind of forced Los Angeles did moved 430 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: back and she lost what her bank roll. She lost 431 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: her bankroll? Okay, what do you mean by lost her bankroll? Basically, 432 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: she wasn't succeeding anymore and she had lost her winnings. Basically, 433 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: she had gone broke and uh, you know, couldn't stay 434 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: in LA and play poker. And she was going through 435 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: some other issues apparently, and that's why she moved back 436 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: in with other issues. Look, the reason I'm asking you've all, 437 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: I don't have some prurient interest in her personal life. 438 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: But in my mind, do you agree or disagree to you? 439 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: James shell Nutt, As an investigator, you have to know everything. 440 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: Is it a boyfriend, is it an X? Did she 441 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: owe money? It could be did she have a stalker? 442 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: It could be anything, and the tiniest detail could crack 443 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: the case. Shell Nutt agreed. You know, you know the 444 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: investigators right now are very likely investigating every aspect of Susie. 445 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: They want to know her, They want to know who 446 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,479 Speaker 1: she's been speaking with, They want to know what personal 447 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: problems she had. Did she have a beef with someone 448 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: to where she did owe this money. I haven't seen 449 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: a report confirming that. I know that that's been thrown 450 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: out as a possibility. You know, you're gonna want to 451 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: know that she did she have any personal problems, any 452 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: psychological problems going on, and who she was dealing with 453 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: at the time. But yes, I mean, you can't overlook 454 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: any detail, as you know Nancy and murdered instigation, because sometimes, 455 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: as you say, it is the smallest detail that cracks 456 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: the case. I wonder what reason she really did leave 457 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: LA two forensics psychiatrist doctor Daniel Bober. That's a big 458 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: life change to go from the glitz and glamor of 459 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: LA which is a stone's throat of Vegas, back to 460 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: near Pontiac, Michigan. That is a big lifestyle change, doctor Bober. Yeah, 461 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: moving in with your parents and probably going broke. I mean, 462 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: these are all major life transitions that you may have 463 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: some connection to how she died, you know, to you 464 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: you've all Bronstein, friend of Susie since two thousand and eight. 465 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: That's a huge lifestyle changed. I remember after Dancing with 466 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: the Stars, moving after about a year in La back 467 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: home to take care of my parents. It was a 468 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: huge lifestyle change, and one that I wanted. Okay, yeah, 469 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: it was Gray say, oh there's two Martin, Oh there's 470 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: Paul abdoulah blah blah blah blah. That's wonderful, But when 471 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: you're raising children, you want I wanted the whole thing, 472 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: the whole stable home, life, stable community, the works. So 473 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: I'm just that's what motivated me to get back home 474 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: to extended family. I'm very curious about why she moved. 475 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: And also, you've all I keep hearing an echo over 476 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: and over that she was a quote very private person. 477 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: Was she a private person? Was she naturally reticent or 478 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: was there were there things she did not want to 479 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: share for a reason? What can you tell me about her? 480 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: You've all? City was definitely somewhat of the enigma. She h. 481 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: She didn't really share any details about her life unless 482 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: less you asked her. But yeah, I mean she she 483 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: basically kept private to yourself. I also, I am curious 484 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: about the mindset of someone that would burn a human body. 485 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: Doctor Elaine Pope with me for instant anthropologist. You can 486 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: find her at burned bone dot com. She has dedicated 487 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: her career too the effects of burning on the human body. 488 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: Doctor Pope. It's a real pleasure to speak with you, 489 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: and I've wonder if you've wondered. It would be very 490 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: difficult for me. It's very different to just shoot somebody 491 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: at a distance, Bam, they're dead. That versus pouring acceler 492 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: on a body and setting it on fire and watching 493 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: it burn, and having to try over and over and 494 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: over to burn human flesh. Have you ever thought about 495 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: what kind of a mind it takes to do that? 496 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: That's completely out of my area of expertise. I know 497 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: me too, but I still wonder because I see it 498 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: a lot. You've never wondered that. I mean for me, 499 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: it's an extra step of the of the of the 500 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: crime process. Oh, that's interesting. What do you mean by that? 501 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: It's an extra step in the crime process. What does 502 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: that mean? Well, well, like you said, you shoot somebody 503 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: or whatever, it's just an extra yep, I see what 504 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: you mean. An extra step and a very difficult step. 505 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: I might add, to burn a human body. I guess 506 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: there's something doctor Daniel by R, I need to shrink again. 507 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: There's something that seems so wrong, devilish to burn, put 508 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: a match to a human body, to flesh. There's just 509 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: there's just something abhorrent and repellent about that. What is it? Well, 510 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: then again, Nancy, it takes a certain kind of mind 511 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: stat to plan a murder and take someone out, So 512 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: I think it's all part of that. I think it's 513 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: all part of that ability to not see someone as 514 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: a living being, but to see them as an object 515 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: that's getting in the way of something. Okay, then I 516 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: don't know. I'm not verbalizing this very well obviously to 517 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: Nema Ramani, Okay, you take off your defense hat. I'll 518 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: take off my prosecutor hat just for a moment. Would 519 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: you agree that shooting somebody bam, it's over in an instant. 520 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 1: But the cover up. Have you ever had cases where 521 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: the body has been put in lie or dismembered or burned, 522 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: or some you know, intricate method of hiding or destroying 523 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: the body. I think that takes a whole another mindset. Nema, 524 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: I don't know what the right words are to describe this. 525 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: But have you ever had cases like that? And you 526 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: just think, what? Why would you go through all this? 527 00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: Like putting acid on a body or burning a body? It's, 528 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: as doctor Pope said, another step, but it's fiendish. Well, Nancy, 529 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: I see a drug cartel prosecutor. So I've seen it 530 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 1: all and thank god, I don't do any defense worth 531 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: but I've had a lot of these cases, a lot 532 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: of cases or bodies have been dismembered, so not surprising 533 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: to see it here. The psyche behind the dismemberment or 534 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: the destruction of a body is something I will never understand. 535 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: Back to levipage Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. Now 536 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: the FBI is in on the case. Why because that 537 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: opens up a whole nother Pandora's box. Yes, the FBI 538 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: has said that they will assist the local police with 539 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: anything needed in this case. And Nancy, her body was burned, 540 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 1: but police were able to get fingerprints, and they were 541 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: also able to identify a specific tattoo unique to her 542 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: that was on the body. Do you know what the 543 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: tattoo is? No, they have not revealed what the tattoo work. 544 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: So whoever tried to burn her body did not do 545 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: a very good job at it. We wait as justice 546 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: unfolds for professional gambler Susie Zoo. Nancy Gray's crime story, 547 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: signing off good bye friend,