1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Body doors, but Joseph's gotten more. You want to hear 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: a horrible term. I've always hated this term when it 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: comes to medicine. I don't know, it's always made my 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: skin crawl. It's actually the word rhino plasty. Rhino of course, 5 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: referring to a rhinoceros and the idea that they've got 6 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: the big horn, you know, sticking out of their nose. 7 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: Plasty goes to a surgical intervention. Perhaps that is going 8 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: to alter one's appearance. Rhinoplasty. We might otherwise know it 9 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: as a nose job, and there are many people who 10 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: have had those jobs because of serious cosmetic issues, and 11 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: they look so much better. And at the end of 12 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: the day, you know, it all depends on your own 13 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: personal perception of yourself. Maybe it needs to have a 14 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: medical intervention that requires rhinoplasty. And then there's others. I 15 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: think that we can go back in time and look 16 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: that have had rhinoplasty and probably ill advised. But today's case, 17 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: today's case is a case that involves an individual who, 18 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: according to her, administered a notes shop. Only this was 19 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: not a surgical intervention. This was murder in the instrument. 20 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: It was a three eighty caliber pistol. I'm Joseph Scott 21 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Facts. Brother Dave, I got 22 00:01:58,120 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: a time. I'm going to tell you something about myself 23 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: today that I have never told you. I know, right, 24 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: hold on, friends, in case you don't know it. Dave 25 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: and I are actually we we we do our our 26 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,119 Speaker 1: our tapings actually looking at one another. We can see 27 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: one another. You know, scary, We're having a conversation. It 28 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: is scary. 29 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: It is scary. 30 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: We see ourselves in all all sorts of dishevelment. And 31 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: other days will come in and say, hey, would you 32 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: do text shower day? But Dave, and you know, I've 33 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: I've broken my nose four times in my life, really 34 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: actually and I no no, but and I think but 35 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: the first time I fell at a skating rink in 36 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: my face was used to catch myself. First time I'd 37 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: been on skates. I think I was probably eight. Wow, terrifying. 38 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: The other one actually had a dear friend of mine. 39 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: I was at a church, the church we attended when 40 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: I was a kid. I was coming out of what 41 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: we call the game room. This church is really old, 42 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: so every door in the church was solid oak. And 43 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: she had come running down the hallway as I was 44 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: walking out of the door, grabbed a solid oak door 45 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: and slammed it on my face. I never saw it coming. Wow, 46 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: And that broke my nose. And then I broke my 47 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: nose in football, I actually had a face mask that 48 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: gave way and caved in on me. Took a shot 49 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: in to the face and then the other one I 50 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: think might have been a broken nose. I'm I'm not 51 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: going to go into but suffice it to say I 52 00:03:54,640 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: have now rather a robust probosca as Jimmy Dan. But yeah, 53 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: Jimmy Durany, you know, got a big ridge in my nose. 54 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: You know, uh it My nose generally arrives at a 55 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: location a couple of seconds ahead of the rest of me, 56 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: So I'll put it that way. If it were raining outside, 57 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: people could take shelter. 58 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 3: It was just stay dry, so you never know. 59 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: Large. 60 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: Well, it is rather robust, but that's okay. There are 61 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: many people that that do go under the knife, if 62 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: you will. For Ronald Placid, one of the things that's 63 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: always kind of put me off about the process is 64 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: that hammers and chisels are used many times. Now there's 65 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: surgical hammers and chisels, you know, to knock off edges 66 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: and whatnother. There's something kind of ghastly about it. You know, 67 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: we do ghastly things in the borg obviously, but you know, 68 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about, you know, the breaking. You know, 69 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: in order, you know what the old adage, Uh, you 70 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: got to break some eggs to make an eye, you 71 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: got to break the nose. And uh that's why that's 72 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: why you see this, uh, the bilateral raccoon eyes with 73 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: people that have undergone rhino plastic. Because you're fracturing, You're 74 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: fracturing the skull. Wow. 75 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 3: Let me, Is it true that your nose once you 76 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 3: have a nose job, that your nose doesn't keep growing? 77 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 3: I know, when we get older, our nose in our 78 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 3: ears continue to grow correct as they as we see issues. 79 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: You know, the soft tissue does. And you have a 80 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: nose underlying skeletal structure. 81 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 3: Okay, but when you have a nose job, does that 82 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 3: prevent your nose from getting longer as you age? 83 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: Uh? I'm going to tell you right now, I'm going 84 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,799 Speaker 1: to say it plainly. I have no idea. I don't 85 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: I don't have an answer to that question it, but 86 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: I can tell you this, I would think that that 87 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: it would disrupt it to a certain degree. Here here's 88 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: a kind of a little bony fact, if you will. 89 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: Did you know that in your throughout your skeleton, you 90 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: have what refer to medical types refer to it and 91 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: anatomus refer to it as foramen. Foramen are these tiny 92 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: little holes that are in bone. Okay, as a matter 93 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: of fact, the largest foramen that we have is what's 94 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: referred to as the foramen magnum, and it is at 95 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: the base of the skull. It's the biggest bony hole 96 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: in your body, and it's where your spinal cord emerges 97 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: comes out of that hole, you know, from beneath the brain, 98 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: and you've got tiny little framen that surround it, and 99 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: that's where blood vessels pass through day. So if you've 100 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: got like a foramen in your you know your facial structure, 101 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: that is a blood supply to the soft tissues around 102 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: and to the bone. Two, if you get it altered surgically, 103 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: I really wonder how surgeons go in and account for 104 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: that because those vessels have to go somewhere else, or 105 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: does it diminish the supply of blood? And I know 106 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: that there's people out there. There are surgeons and work 107 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: with surgeons, and they could probably have the answer to that. 108 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: But it is interesting, to say the very least, and 109 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: you have to account for that. And you know, people 110 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: that want to approve improve their appearance, you know, they 111 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: pursue these types of things, and that's kind of at 112 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: the heart at the center, I think at least a 113 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: comment that's associated with this case. 114 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 3: It is referred to as the nose job murder. 115 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is. And look, I'll look all in all, 116 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: all aside, I've covered this case. I've covered it in 117 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: the news. I've covered it with at Nancy. I think 118 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: I covered it probably on Long Crime Net one when 119 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: they were still doing the daily court coverage, and you know, 120 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: I would be one of the it's almost like being 121 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: a color commentator. It's kind of a strange thing. I'm 122 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: almost sure that we're you know, we're talking about the 123 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: the shu Shannon Shana Hubers Shana Huber's case. And you 124 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: had questions for me about this case, and I was 125 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, well I'll revisit this with you 126 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: because you've got questions. I want to try to answer 127 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: them as best I can. 128 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: You know, Joe. 129 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 3: It is called the uh the nose I've murdered because 130 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 3: Shanna Hubers claims she shot her boyfriend in self defense 131 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 3: and during her interview with police, she said that he 132 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 3: was very vain and that she had a friend who 133 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 3: was a dentist and he uh the Bryan Posting, the 134 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 3: victim here, that Ryan wanted to get veneers for his teeth, 135 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 3: and he also wanted to get a nose job. And 136 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 3: in this interview with police, after Ryan Posting has been 137 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 3: shot six times in the face, Shana Hubers says, I 138 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 3: gave him the nose job he always wanted. That's why 139 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 3: this case has been called the nose job murder, because 140 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 3: who would say that about somebody they claimed to love? 141 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, and it's uh, it's uh. I 142 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: use the term chilling a lot. It goes beyond chilling. 143 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: It's uh. This is this has got a level of 144 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: disgusting to it. Yeah, And I think that it's important 145 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: that we remember the victim, Ron Posting here and what 146 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: he did for a living. I mean, he he was 147 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: an attorney. Okay. Most people think of attorneys in the 148 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: sense where you're in trial and you're in this bit 149 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: courtroom and you're presenting to the jury, and that's very typical. 150 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: You know, you can practice law in any number, any 151 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: number of ways, contract law. You'll never walk inside of 152 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: a courtroom, you know, to try a case. That's you know, 153 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: that's not what they do. But for him, I think Dave, 154 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: first off, he's he's a good looking cat. I can 155 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,599 Speaker 1: say that, you know, to begin with handsome had a 156 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: lot of friends that really loved him and thought he 157 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: was a really cool dude. He had gone to I 158 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: think he went to the University of Indiana or Indiana 159 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: University undergraduate, was a triple major there with an eye 160 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: toward going to law school, and I think that he 161 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: wound up going to the University of Northern Kentucky for 162 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: his law degree. 163 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 3: I'm just trying to think a triple major, do you 164 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 3: have brain power that requires. 165 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, you got to stay on you got to stay 166 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: on top of it and became me. Yeah, it's like 167 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: a normal degree is like I think at jack State 168 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 1: it's one hundred you know, average it's going to vary, 169 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: but it's like one hundred and twenty hours all right, 170 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: roughly one hundred and twenty twenty four hours. That's for 171 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: an undergraduate degree. Well, you still have to do all 172 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: of the major requisites for if you're majoring in political science, 173 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: which I think he was geography, which I think he was, 174 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: and I can't remember what the other one was, but 175 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: there were like three. Might he might walk out of 176 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: the door with one hundred and sixty five undergraduate hours 177 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: and you say, well, what would be the point where 178 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: he's trying to be well rounded? I think, you know, 179 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: before he sets himself up to go to law school, 180 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: be able to write effectively and do all those things. 181 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: And he was apparently quite a success, dave. 182 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 2: He was. 183 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 3: He was an add of Cincinnati where he practiced, and 184 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 3: you know you mentioned a minute ago about his friends 185 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 3: really caring about him. Ryan Postin was a well thought 186 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 3: of individual at twenty nine years old, a very accomplished 187 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 3: young man, and he kind of had his uh, had 188 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 3: his pick of the women he would see. 189 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 2: You know. 190 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 3: He was, I mean, obviously smart, obviously attractive, and you know, 191 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 3: a good guy. Here's the problem. He and Shanna Huber's 192 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 3: data for eighteen months, and it was content. It was 193 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 3: an on again, off again relationship. I've poured over some 194 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 3: text messages between the two of them and It's interesting 195 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 3: if you realize that. First of all, Shana was twenty 196 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 3: one years old and she was in college at the time. 197 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 3: No slotch intellectually, but you know, you have people that 198 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 3: are street smart and yet they lack in other areas 199 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 3: of maturity or you know, street smarts and things like that, 200 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 3: and she was lacking in social graces and being able 201 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 3: to be somebody that people would really like. She had 202 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 3: a lot of edges on her again, very smart and 203 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 3: very attractive, but there were parts of her that were 204 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 3: really unappealing to people who got to know her. And 205 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 3: in this case with Ryan, they dated today eighteen months. 206 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: They met online, as many people do these days. Ryan 207 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 3: actually saw a Facebook picture that she posted of a 208 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 3: spring break trip she had. He liked the photo that 209 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,719 Speaker 3: led to communication online. They met, they went out, and 210 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 3: it was a hot, hot relationship at times. There was 211 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 3: a lot of intensity there. And here's the part about 212 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 3: Ryan that I think his friends were I'm glad they 213 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 3: shared it with us. He didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings. 214 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 3: He really was that guy. He didn't want You know, 215 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 3: some people just they don't care about others feelings. They 216 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 3: don't and they just go through life like that Ryan did. 217 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: He cared so much about other people's feelings, in particular 218 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 3: with Shana. He wanted to break up with her, He 219 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 3: needed to break up with her, but he didn't want 220 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 3: to hurt her feelings, so he would do it in 221 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 3: soft ways, not very direct and not final, and always 222 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 3: left this door open and she would come back. She 223 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 3: was relentless. 224 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: And yeah, the number of text messages, I think is 225 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: something that really and this is we have to go back. 226 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: This is this case originated in twenty twelve, I think 227 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: it was. And I look back in time, interestingly enough, 228 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: I got to say, guess what else was in the 229 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: news at this particular time that kind of parallels this 230 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: case and something to Shannon Huber is actually referenced, and 231 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: that's that's Jodi Arius trial. This was actually the trial 232 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: itself was going on during this period of time. I know, 233 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: because you know, i'd been I was at h l 234 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: N at the time, you know, covering the scene with 235 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: Vinnie and the guys, and we covered it for a 236 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: long long time. And it's striking parallels, you know, in 237 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: this case and with Jody Arius. I don't know, can 238 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: you say unrequited love or you know, wanting to distance 239 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: yourself from someone. You've got this highly charged, highly charged 240 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: relationship that's you know, you've got these these people that 241 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: are deeply intimately involved. I was I was listening to 242 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: an interview regarding this case, and a lady that was speaking, 243 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: I believe she was one of the foreign prosecutors, had 244 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: said that this victim, Ryan would come home Dave and 245 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: somehow Shana would get into his apartment and he would 246 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: walk through the door and she would be lying on 247 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: the sofa nude, smiling at him when he walked in. Now, look, 248 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: I'm a red blooded most I'm not saying that I 249 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: have an aversion to that when it comes to my wife. However, 250 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: I have to say, you've got someone that has come 251 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: into your space and feels that very comfortable in an 252 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: intimate setting, that very bold like that, and you know 253 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: that they don't necessarily want you any longer, and you're 254 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: going to literally bear yourself to them. You're really in 255 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: a very very difficult area. It's an emotionally charged situation 256 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: and it can only get worse. Day. 257 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: During the time of their relationship, Ryan would text Shana, 258 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 3: it's over. As you think about how bold it would 259 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: take for somebody to be to sneak into the house, 260 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 3: break into the house, and be laying there on the 261 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 3: couch nude when the man comes home. Shana was aggressive 262 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 3: and relentless when it came to Ryan posting. She was 263 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 3: there constantly, even when he said stop, please stop. But Joe, 264 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 3: one thing I did notice, let me share. February twenty twelve, 265 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 3: he sends her a text. You can tell people you 266 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 3: broke up with me. He's negotiating here. You know she 267 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 3: won't stop. She won't leave them alone. Look, tell people 268 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 3: you broke up with me. Now, I'm good with that. 269 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 3: March of twenty twelve. The next month, Ryan to Shana, 270 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 3: stop texting me. April, I no longer have the patience 271 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 3: to deal with you. So three months in a row 272 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 3: he is sending very specific things to Shana, but she 273 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 3: won't give up. 274 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: Relentless. 275 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 3: Investigators found hundreds of thousands of text messages between Ryan 276 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 3: and Shana, and again, remember their relationship only lasted a 277 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 3: period of eighteen months. Forever one message that Ryan sent 278 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 3: to Shana, Shana probably sent fifty to him. 279 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: Wow, what a ratio. 280 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: She could not stop herself, and when it came right 281 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: down to it. Ryan had been chased out of his 282 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 3: own house and it ended up at his stepfather's house 283 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 3: in the middle of the night because she wouldn't leave 284 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 3: his place. She would not leave. He had to leave 285 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 3: his own condo because she wouldn't leave. You want to 286 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 3: get physical with her now? She claimed he was Joe. 287 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 3: She claimed he was physically abusive to her. As a 288 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 3: matter of fact, she showed bruises on her arms to 289 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 3: a next door neighbor, claiming that Ryan did that. She 290 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 3: confesslated on this she bruised herself. Now, I'm no lawyer. 291 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 3: You're no lawyer, but we hang out with a lot 292 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 3: of lawyers. 293 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: Yes, we do. 294 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 3: What does that seem like to you, Joe? That she 295 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 3: was playing She was playing a long game to get 296 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 3: him back after he had said stop, leave me alone, 297 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 3: and she wouldn't that. Now she's turned the tables and 298 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 3: now she's planning something else. 299 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 2: Maybe yeah. 300 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: And I think that many people would, in a knee 301 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: jerk manner, probably say that she's simply crazy and dismiss it. 302 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: But let me tell you this, just because somebody actually 303 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: behaves in a manner in which you see as quote 304 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: unquote crazy does not necessarily mean that they're insane. However, 305 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: what it might mean is that they are pure evil. 306 00:19:53,680 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: Who actually makes a comment that is socallous when speaking 307 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: of the dead. And again, I want to, as you know, 308 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: as an advocate for the dead, here, I gotta say 309 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: the dead. The dead can't offer up any testimony on 310 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: their on behalf. We need to keep that in mind. 311 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: But what, what kind of person in what context was 312 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: this comment about those jobs made? 313 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 3: Dave Well On the night in question, October the twelfth, 314 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,479 Speaker 3: twenty twelve, Shanna Hubers is at Ryan Posting's house. They 315 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 3: spent October the eleventh together and had actually gone to 316 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 3: Shane's mother's house. Ryan was trying to ease her out 317 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 3: of the relationship. He told Shana, I have a date 318 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 3: tomorrow night on the twelfth, at nine thirty pm. I 319 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 3: have a date. By the way, his date was with 320 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 3: the reigning Miss Ohio USA. Her name is Audrey Bolt. 321 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 3: He has a d and he's telling her this now. 322 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 3: He's trying to be nice to Shana so that he 323 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 3: can leave with class. But they go to Shane his 324 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 3: mom's house on our cover October twelfth or October the eleventh. 325 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 3: She spends the night. She will not leave Ryan's house. 326 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 3: After everything he's trying to do, she still won't leave. 327 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 3: So on October the twelfth, he's telling her, I have 328 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 3: a date. I'm going out. You need to leave, and 329 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 3: she won't. On October the twelfth, nine one one gets 330 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 3: a call. Emergency medical Services called to the scene because 331 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 3: Shana Hubers says, I shot my boyfriend in self defense. 332 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 3: That's the case. I shot my boyfriend in self defense. 333 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 3: In this nine to one one call, it's hours later 334 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 3: when she's being interviewed by police and she explains the 335 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 3: shooting and by the way, six shots in all, and 336 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 3: she says to the investigator, a female investigator, she's sitting 337 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 3: in the room and Shaney says, he's vain. He wanted 338 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 3: ben ears and he wanted a nose job. So I 339 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 3: gave him the nose job he always wanted by shooting 340 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 3: him in the face. Joe, that was That's where the 341 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 3: nose job murder comes from. I shot him in the face, 342 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 3: and I gave him the nose job he always wanted. 343 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: Wow, you know, it's not too often I think a 344 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: lot of people. Again, forgive me, Dave. You know, I'm 345 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: always referring to things that we see in Hollywood. Things 346 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: we see in movies as kind of a point of reference, 347 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: but we I feel as though I'm compelled to do 348 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: that because they get so much wrong, and you know, 349 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: from a forensics perspective, how we handle cases and probability 350 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: and all sorts of things. First off, headshots are very 351 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: difficult to score really when you think about it, Yes, 352 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: they are. Yeah, you know, when when you're firing, it's 353 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 1: a smaller object. You know, if you're in the military, 354 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: if you've worked in law enforcement, or if you just 355 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: enjoy weapons and you go out training and you have 356 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: an instructor, the one thing they're always going to tell you, 357 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: particularly when you're thinking about firing from the perspective of 358 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: an aggressor coming at you, you always fire for center mass. 359 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 2: Okay. 360 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: Center mass means that you know, essentially if you think 361 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: about from the shoulders to the abdomen, okay, well that's 362 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: a much bigger target than the head, right. So it's 363 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: and Hollywood loves to deal in fantasy, okay, and it's 364 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: it's fantastical many times to think, well, they scored a 365 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: head shot from a great distance. I love these movies 366 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: that show someone firing a pistol, and it's from yards 367 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 1: and yards and yards away, and they score you know, 368 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: a center mass. I mean they score a head shot 369 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: as opposed to firing at center asked and knock the 370 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: person down. And those are the exceptions, not the rules. Okay, However, 371 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: if you do score a headshot. The first thing, as 372 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: far as range of fire goes, that I like to 373 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: think of is that I think about proximity because most 374 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: of the time when you fire fire a weapon, it 375 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: is It's different firing at static targets. You know, if 376 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: you've got a paper target that's hanging up, or if 377 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: you're shooting you know, I don't know, old coffee cans 378 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: off of a fence post, which my grandfather used to do. 379 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: Taught me how to shoot that way with a BB gun. Actually, 380 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: that's completely different than working in a dynamic environment. We 381 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: have an individual advancing on you. You know, say you've got 382 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: this woman who is being abused and she feels threatened 383 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: and she shoes do you want to hear? Literally right now, 384 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: I want to tell you about this one of the 385 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: most fantastic, I say fantastic, one of the most unbelievable 386 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: shots that I have ever borne. Witness to as an investigator. 387 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: And again, now this is a true case of domestic abuse. 388 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: There was case that I worked many many years ago, 389 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: immediately adjacent to the New Orleans International Airport, and there 390 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: was a trailer park underneath an overpass, if you can 391 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: imagine that. So you're living beneath an underpass an overpass 392 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 1: in trailers, immediately adjacent to the airport, which is an 393 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: international airport, and it's busy, So you've got the sound 394 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: of traffic over you, and you've also got the sound 395 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: of jets taking off and landing there at lou Armstrong Airport. Dave, 396 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: there was this man and a woman that lived together 397 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: in this trailer, and the trailer itself had a set 398 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: of concrete steps that you would push up to the side, 399 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: you know, prefab steps, that was a single entrance into 400 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: it that actually had steps, and they have screen door 401 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: on the trailer and they would leave the primary interior 402 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: door open. Well, he had beaten this poor woman over 403 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: and over again. He'd get hammered, drunk, he'd raise his 404 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: hand to her and then he would have these you know, 405 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: bold things that he would get out in the yard 406 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: start screaming at the trailer. At her, you know, calling 407 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: her names and just continuing to just act like a 408 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: wild man after he'd beat her. They'd had the police 409 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: that had rolled out there a couple of times. The 410 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: locals that lived there, they saw it happen. You know, 411 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: they saw him demonstrating out there outside of the trailer. 412 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: You know, I guess, like marking his territory or something 413 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: after he would hit this poor woman. Well, he did 414 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: it one too many times, Dave. And this comes down 415 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: to the idea, the most incredible shot that I've ever seen, 416 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: according to witnesses. Now, I saw the aftermath, okay, But 417 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: according to witnesses, they heard arguing going on, or they 418 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: heard him screaming. He had walked out of the house 419 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: off those concrete steps. The screen door was closed behind him, 420 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: and he said something to her to the effect, I'm 421 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: going to come back in there and beat your ass again. 422 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: And he had said that, and he's screaming this, and 423 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: he's screaming it over and over again, and this poor 424 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: and she was a little bitty tiny thing. She retrieves 425 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: a twenty five caliber pistol, which is one of the 426 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: smallest caliber handguns you can have. Some people refer to 427 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 1: it as a pocket pistol or a belly gun. He 428 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: is at the base of the stairs, Dave, and he's 429 00:27:54,880 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 1: yelling at her, and somebody says they heard him say 430 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: you've oh, you've got the gun. You've got the gun. 431 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: Go ahead, go ahead. I'm a man, I can take it. 432 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: And he made that pronouncement one more time, I'm a 433 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: man I can take and it cut off and it 434 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: was replaced with a sound of pop. Dave. She shot 435 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: this guy through an intermediate target, which is the screen 436 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: door on a downward trajectory, and Dave, here comes a 437 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: big finish. His mouth was open, he was in mid sentence. 438 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: That round passed through his open mouth and actually lodged, 439 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: actually lodged in in the base of his brain at 440 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: the stem his spine, at the at the stem of 441 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: the spinal cord there the brain stem rather and dropped 442 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: him immediately to his knees. Now that goes to a 443 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: range of fire in proximity. How do you score it? Well, 444 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: that was a one in a million shot through a 445 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: screen door, through an into an open mouth and lodging 446 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: in the rain stem. When we look at the this 447 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: Huber's case involving you know Ron pottson these shots that 448 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: were fired, and I think, Dave, give me, correct me 449 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. How many were there? 450 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 3: There were six six There were two shots right away 451 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 3: and ear witnesses two quick shots and then quiet for 452 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 3: enough time to be noted by the ear witnesses next door, 453 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 3: and then a succession of four more shots. So bam bam, bam, bam, 454 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 3: bam bam. 455 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 1: And that and it was a three eighty pistol that 456 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: she had. And that's that is like in when we 457 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: think about these belly guns, as I mentioned just a 458 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: second ago, pocket pistols, you've got you've got three. There 459 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: used to be four, uh, and you can still find 460 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: the fourth caliber. But it's rare. Twenty two caliber, okay, 461 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: twenty two caliber pistol. And this is you can hold 462 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: it in the palm of your hand and people wouldn't 463 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: know that you have it. A twenty five caliber, the 464 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: afore mentioned caliber I was referring to with this this 465 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: miraculous shot. And then three eighty. The three eighty is 466 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: zero point three eight zero caliber. It's just like a 467 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: thirty eight special, but it's not the three eighty. The 468 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: three eighty caliber is not as robust as a thirty 469 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: eight Special, which cops used to carry. The diameter of 470 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: the projectile is is the same, okay, But the robustness, 471 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: the length, the weight of the projectile of a three 472 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: to eighty versus a thirty eight special is not as 473 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: as robust as a thirty eight Special. But you'll see 474 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: people that want to have a concealed weapon on them 475 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: carry these things. And Dave, you have to be in 476 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: close proximity for these things to be effective. Okay, now 477 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: you can. You can score a shot from a distance, 478 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: but with those smaller calibers like that at a greater distance, 479 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: it's as much luck as it is skilled. So this 480 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: tells me about this case that you had to have 481 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: very close proximity when this weapon was being fired. And 482 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: here's another bit about this. The assessment of Ryan's injuries 483 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:31,959 Speaker 1: indicated that he had stippling on his face all about, 484 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, associated with these rounds. And 485 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, for those that don't know, 486 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: those bits of evidence that are left behind by unburnt gunpowder, 487 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: for instance, will always. 488 00:31:49,080 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: Tell the tale. 489 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: Ballistic fingerprints. I think that that's a term that is 490 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: thrown around frequently, and it's kind of broad ranging depended 491 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: upon how it's being applied, because you have markings on bullets. 492 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: You have things that are kind of left behind by 493 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: projectiles and even by weapons themselves that we look at 494 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: that are going to paint the picture when a firearm 495 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: is involved. 496 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 3: Dave, Now I've got questions about multiple things here, Joe. 497 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 3: So one, Shanny Heuvers from the very beginning claimed it 498 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 3: was self defense. And we also know that before she 499 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 3: called nine to one one she called her mother. All right, 500 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 3: So yeah, now I want to get back to the shooting. 501 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 3: You said stipling on our victim here, Ryan had stippling. 502 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 3: We know there are six shots. We know that Shanny 503 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 3: Hubvers claims that he was standing coming towards her. The 504 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 3: story is that he pulled a gun on her, that 505 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 3: he had been beating her all day like a rag doll, 506 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 3: throwing her around and that, and that he pulled a 507 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 3: gun and she, fearing for her life, grabbed a gun 508 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 3: and shot him six times in the face. And that's 509 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 3: her story, and she's sticking to it. So if he's 510 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 3: standing and she shoots him only because he's coming at 511 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 3: her and she fears for her life, I'm going to 512 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 3: assume and I want you to correct me that there's 513 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 3: going to be indications of that based on blood on 514 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 3: him and surrounding areas. Prosecution claims he was not standing. 515 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 3: They claim he was sitting. I've got to assume here 516 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 3: that we've got a lot of differences between somebody standing 517 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 3: being shot in the head and sitting being shot in 518 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 3: the head. And you just said stipling. So yeah, there's 519 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 3: a whole lot to unpack here, Joe. 520 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there are. And let me kind of lay 521 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: this out to you when we say stipling relative to 522 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: our findings in forensic pathology, and stippling will be you 523 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: look at the skin and bits of unburned gunpowder will 524 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: actually be with great force slam into the skin and 525 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: it kind of buries itself there. And what it looks like, Okay, 526 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: this is what it looks like. Just imagine, if you will, 527 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: you had a handful of black pepper, okay, and you 528 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: just kind of take it and slap it onto a 529 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: particular surface. You're not kind of tossing it out, you know, 530 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: like shaking it out of a shaker. You've got a 531 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: handful of it, okay, and you lay it down on 532 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: a surface and you'll see if you did that, you 533 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: would see it kind of concentrated in a particular area, 534 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: and as it begins to extend out from the center, 535 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: it becomes more widely dispersed. That's kind of what stippling 536 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: looks like. Most of the time, you'll have a defect, 537 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: which is just a fancy term that forensic pathologists use 538 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: for a whole all right, So when you're talking about 539 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: firearms related desks, so you got the hole that's generated 540 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: by the projectile, and that's called a defect, and then 541 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: extending out from it, you'll have these little bitty dots 542 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: that look like black pepper. Well, those dots are stippling. 543 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: That's unburned propellant or gunpowder that comes out of the 544 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: end of the muzzle when the weapon is discharged. So 545 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: you think that everything is burned up because you know, 546 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: it's like when you fire a bullet. I was actually 547 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 1: just teaching this the other day in my intro forensics class. 548 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: When you fire a bullet, okay, a live round, it's 549 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,919 Speaker 1: almost like launching a rocket. You have a primer cap 550 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: in the bottom, Okay, that's got an un It's it's 551 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: less stable than gunpowder itself. The primer, because what you 552 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: want to do is you tap it. It's actually a 553 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: cap that's below there. It sends a spark through the 554 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: flash holes in the base of the projectile. 555 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 2: Uh. 556 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: The powder is seated on top of the flash holes 557 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: and the flat and the powder ignites and it drives 558 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: out the projectile. And so just because this thing ignites 559 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: and it burns off and you hear the loud pop 560 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: that comes along with a weapon being fired, doesn't mean 561 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: that all that powder is consumed by the fire. Some 562 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: of it's just gets blown out through the explosion, and 563 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: it's it's not as it's not what an engineer would 564 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: call efficient. Uh. You know. So people want to have 565 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: a propellant or the gunpowder. They want to have it 566 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: to the point chemically where you're going to get literally 567 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: the most bang for your buck. Sometimes it just doesn't 568 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: totally ignite. That powder's driven out of the end of 569 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: the barrel and it's got to go somewhere. Here's the 570 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: trick though, Dave powder. If you think about talcum powder, 571 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: for instance, and you just put it in your hand, 572 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: you blew it out, what's it going to do? Well, 573 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,479 Speaker 1: after a few feet, the blown air that comes out 574 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: from between your lips is going to be insufficient to 575 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: drive that powder any further down range away from the 576 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: palm of your hand that you've blown it out of. 577 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: It's going to drift down to the earth. Okay, Gravity's 578 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: going to take over a bullet down Well, just like 579 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: that gunpowder is not very aerodynamic, Okay, it bleeds off 580 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: that energy really quick and after that initial blast it 581 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: drifts away. So once you get out outside, I think, 582 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: in my opinion, particularly with a three eighty, once you 583 00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: get outside of about eighteen to twenty five inches this 584 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 1: particular caliber, there won't be any evidence of it. More 585 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: than likely you might have a bit of it kind 586 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: of float down and whatnot, But that kind of concentrated 587 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: blast that you get that's going to lead to actually 588 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: blasting into the skin. So for us when we're talking 589 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: about this and we're trying to determine range of fire, 590 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: we're going to look at the distribution pattern of the stipling. 591 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: So the further out it is that it extends from 592 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: that little central hole that the bullet has made or 593 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: projectile has made, the greater the distance because it spreads 594 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 1: out almost like a if you're firing like bird shot, 595 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: out of a shotgun, it kind of spreads, well, same principle, 596 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 1: it spreads, and the further out it spreads, you know 597 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: that the individual firing the weapon was further away. So 598 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: the tighter the concentration, the closer it is. 599 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 3: Okay, So you can tell by these shots whether or 600 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 3: not Ryan was standing or sitting, Yes, was charging forward? 601 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 3: What did the blood tell you? Because I know that 602 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 3: they actually discussed where the blood was on his shirt 603 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 3: and undershirt and is I guess he was wearing sweatpants 604 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 3: where the blood was from him? Because Shane Hubs was not. 605 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 3: And by the way, her claiming that she had been 606 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 3: slung around that condo like a rag doll and all 607 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 3: that when police got to the scene, that's not what 608 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 3: they described seeing. 609 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: What did I tell you? I think it was just 610 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: a couple episodes we ago. We had the same discussion 611 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: about what's our canned our canned line, Let's see if 612 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: you remember it. We go to the scene and are 613 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: there any what's it sign? What do we say? Were 614 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: there any signs of. 615 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 3: Joe I'm a nut. I can't and. 616 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: I'll give it to you. Any signs of fourth century 617 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:52,760 Speaker 1: or struggle? 618 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 3: Thank you? 619 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: That's that's kind of our that's ground zero for what 620 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: we do. And if I've got a if I've got 621 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: a victim, if I've got a victim of saying he 622 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: has been beating my tail all day. As a matter 623 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 1: of that, she goes into great detail, he has been 624 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: throwing me around like a rag doll, flung me into 625 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: the TV. Yeah, and guess what TV is still functioning. 626 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 3: With dust on it. It's got dust on it. His dad, 627 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 3: I mean, family members said he was kind of a slob. Okay, 628 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 3: they were. They're not being mean to say that. It's 629 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 3: just day. He was kind of a slob, slob, And 630 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,240 Speaker 3: that's the fact that they pointed out on the TV. 631 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 3: She specifically said he flung me into the TV, and 632 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 3: when they looked at the TV, there was dust on it. 633 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: And that's something that we that we would notice very 634 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: quickly because and I've actually, I don't know if I've 635 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: ever had a television. I have had a door though, 636 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: where individual claimed that they had been thrown into and 637 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,240 Speaker 1: there was a dusty it was, it was covered with dust, 638 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: and I've seen a point of impact in dust and 639 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,919 Speaker 1: you can almost make out an outline on the door 640 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: where you could see like the lateral like the right 641 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: lateral side impacts. I've seen this on cars, Dave, dusty 642 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,439 Speaker 1: cars that people are hit by. I saw a guy 643 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,240 Speaker 1: that was almost bent like a pretzel that the impact 644 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: was like in his hip of the bumper, but he 645 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: bent to the point where you could see his arm 646 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: catching himself on the hood of the car. I actually 647 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: had it happen on a Marta train one time. I 648 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: had a guy that committed suicide by throwing himself in 649 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 1: the main the main what's called Little five or it's 650 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: called actually five Points, Little five Points another location in Atlanta, 651 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: but in the five Points there, which is the main 652 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: hub where you get onto the Marta trains, and you 653 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: could see his arm, the outline of his arm where 654 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: it hit the dust, and you could see his fingers 655 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: even extended when he was impacted by that train. So 656 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: that kind of disturbance are lacked there up. It's going 657 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 1: to tell slot if you're telling me that you've been 658 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: slammed around this apartment, I'm not just going to look 659 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: for disturbed dust on a television. I'm going to look for, 660 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,320 Speaker 1: you know, any kind of knickknack that has been busted 661 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 1: or are broken and there's a big difference. Listen, I 662 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I am a slob. I 663 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: am a slob. I freely admitted. I'm I'm part of 664 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: the slob kingdom. So for me, in this environment, we 665 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: can I can walk in I can walk into a 666 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,439 Speaker 1: hoarder's home, which I've walked into a lot of these 667 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 1: homes where people have died, and I can tell what 668 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: was naturally not naturally that that makes it sound like 669 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: nature had a hand, but what items have been placed 670 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: in a location and have been there for a protracted 671 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: period of time, as opposed to somebody being in an 672 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: environment where a tussle has taken place, or maybe they've 673 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: fallen over and knocked something over. It just looks different. 674 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: It looks different than sloppiness. And so I think that 675 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: that's you know, you're right, you know, that's what his 676 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: dad was saying about this, that yeah, my son's a slob. 677 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: That's okay, you know, he is a slob. But there's 678 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 1: a big difference between being a slob and having you know, 679 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: a bust of TV or maybe broken furniture or anything 680 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: like that. 681 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 3: And that was their point, is that, Okay, he's a slob, fine, 682 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 3: but there's no indication that a violent struggle happened in 683 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 3: this condo. And this is all in the first minutes 684 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 3: of the investigation where they see the scene. You've got 685 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 3: the twenty nine year old dead, and she's claiming he 686 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 3: was standing charging towards her when she shot him. The 687 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 3: physical evidence does not show that. The prosecution claims he 688 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 3: was sitting at the table, Joe at the dining room table, 689 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 3: sitting at the table in a chair when he was shot. 690 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 3: How are you going to prove that. I mean, you 691 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 3: talked about the stippling, so I understand being closed, but 692 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 3: what about the blood on the shirt and on the sweatpants. 693 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,880 Speaker 1: Let me tell you what's going to happen when you 694 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 1: know I was talking about rhinoplasty earlier and kind of 695 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: the the tools that they utilize. One of the things 696 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: you find out with the head human head, it's very vascular. 697 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 1: Probably out of all of the regions of the body. 698 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: You've got more vessels that pass for the size relative 699 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,400 Speaker 1: size of the head, more vessels that pass through it 700 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: than any other location in the body. It is because 701 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:39,759 Speaker 1: the brain demands so much blood. Okay, so when you're 702 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: slammed in the face with a projectile. One of the 703 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: things that's going to happen are multiple little fractures all 704 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:54,920 Speaker 1: over the place when an individual essentially takes their own 705 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 1: life with a weapon, whether it be to the side 706 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:04,280 Speaker 1: of the head or in the mouth, you're fracturing that 707 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: that uh, the floor of the skull essentially, and all 708 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: of the associated support structures, facial facial structures, and they 709 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 1: have so many vessels that pour that run through them. 710 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: That's why you'll see like a tremendous amount of blood 711 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: that issues forth from the body almost immediately. And if 712 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 1: you are in a seated position. Okay, so where you 713 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 1: and I are sitting across the table from one another. 714 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:43,279 Speaker 1: If we're in a seated position and a projectile hit 715 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 1: you center mass in the face, they write in the 716 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: nose for lack of a better uh, you know, anatomic position, 717 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: blood is going to almost immediately begin to gush out 718 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,720 Speaker 1: of your nose, in your mouth. I've seen this happen 719 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: both ways. Well where does it wind up. Well, obviously 720 00:45:58,719 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: it's going to get out the front of your sh 721 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: or if you're seated, it's going to wind up staining 722 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 1: your lap. But here's the thing. When you get the 723 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,359 Speaker 1: body in a position where you can examine it and 724 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: say you've extended the legs like on an examining table, 725 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: and you're looking at the clothing, did you know that 726 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: you will see a big bloodstain on the lap, then 727 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,720 Speaker 1: probably on the upper chest, maybe running down to the abdomen. 728 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,280 Speaker 1: But when the legs are extended, you'll see a big 729 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:30,719 Speaker 1: gap in the waste between where the blood starts on 730 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 1: the tops of the thighs and where it ends at, 731 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: say the abdomen. When you spread the body out, you'll 732 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 1: see a gap, and that gives you an indication that 733 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: perhaps a person was in a seated position. Now you 734 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 1: have to couple that when you begin to talk about 735 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: her relationship relative and I'm talking about physical, dynamic crime 736 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:56,120 Speaker 1: scene relationship. We're not talking about doctor Phil here where 737 00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 1: you're you also have to factor in trajectory because it's 738 00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: not just his position, it's her position as well. So 739 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:10,760 Speaker 1: if you look at if you look at where positionality 740 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,280 Speaker 1: relative to the end of the muzzle, was she firing 741 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: from above to below? And remember when you read a 742 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,359 Speaker 1: lot of these autopsy reports involving and you and I 743 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,400 Speaker 1: certainly have, you begin to describe these injuries. The physician 744 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,240 Speaker 1: will always talk about it's left to right, front to back, 745 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 1: and either from below to above or from above to below. 746 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: That gives us that's a three dimensional portrait that you're painting. 747 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,200 Speaker 1: Their relative to trajectory, and that's important as well. So 748 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: it's not just a range of fire, it's also the trajectory. 749 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: But I got to tell you, I want to conclude 750 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:49,439 Speaker 1: by saying this a quote directly from my good friend 751 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, and hopefully she won't come down too hard 752 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:58,040 Speaker 1: on me for, you know, borrowing this, but she always says, 753 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 1: if you want to know the whole worse, check its 754 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: track record. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body backs. 755 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,359 Speaker 2: H mm hmm