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Speaker 1: Hey, dear therapist listeners, it's Lori and Guy, and we

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Speaker 1: have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember were there.

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Speaker 1: Therapy is like that too. There are so many learning

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Speaker 1: moments in a session and it's difficult to absorb them

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Speaker 1: all at once. So while we're not taping new episodes

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Speaker 1: right now, we are offering you our most popular sessions

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Speaker 1: as encores so that you can continue to gain value

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Speaker 1: from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing Dear Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects and that we hope you

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Speaker 2: will love just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Over Grind, How to Break Free When Work Hijacks

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Speaker 2: Your Life. And it will be published by Simon & Schuster.

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Speaker 2: You can find out more about it on my website, guywench.com.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. I'm Lori Gottlieb.

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Speaker 1: I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone.

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Speaker 1: And I write the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid.

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Speaker 2: And I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week, we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

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Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a young woman who's now with a healthy

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Speaker 1: partner still carries scars from an abusive relationship she had

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Speaker 1: years ago.

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Speaker 3: Like, I'm just ashamed of the whole situation. I don't

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Speaker 3: want to talk about how I had an abusive partner

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Speaker 3: for three years of my life. I want to forget

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Speaker 3: about it on the outside, but on the inside, I

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Speaker 3: can't forget about it.

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Speaker 2: First, a quick note. Dear Therapists is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not

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Speaker 2: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. By

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Speaker 2: submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use

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Speaker 2: it in part or in full, and we may edit

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Speaker 2: it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear,

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Speaker 2: all names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Guy.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Lori.

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Speaker 1: So what do we have in our mailbox today?

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Speaker 2: Today, we have a letter from a woman who is

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Speaker 2: still processing the fallout of a relationship she had several

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Speaker 2: years ago. And here it is. Dear therapists, it has

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Speaker 2: been over five years since I ended a toxic and

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Speaker 2: emotionally abusive relationship, which I was in for approximately three

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Speaker 2: and a half years. The reason I'm writing to you

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Speaker 2: both is because at 27 years old, I still currently

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Speaker 2: experience intrusive thoughts. and tend to relive parts of this

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Speaker 2: relationship over and over again in my head. There seems

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Speaker 2: to be no escape from this man, even after all

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Speaker 2: of these years. The effects of this relationship affect me

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Speaker 2: in multiple ways. First, I have such anger towards myself

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Speaker 2: for participating in this relationship for as long as I did.

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Speaker 2: I tried to leave multiple times, but my ex had

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Speaker 2: such power over me that he always found a way

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Speaker 2: to suck me back in. My ex-boyfriend is a painful

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Speaker 2: and loud reminder that this is what happens when you

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Speaker 2: don't love yourself. Through work in therapy, I learned to

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Speaker 2: develop self-compassion towards myself for how I ended up in

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Speaker 2: this relationship and why I stayed for as long as

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Speaker 2: I did. But I still grieve for this younger version

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Speaker 2: of myself. Secondly, after this relationship, I continued to pursue

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Speaker 2: emotionally unavailable men, and to no surprise, got my heart

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Speaker 2: broken more than once. It's as if I learned nothing

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Speaker 2: from my ex. And lastly, In the years after the

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Speaker 2: relationship ended, I stayed in a toxic job that broke

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Speaker 2: my spirits and got me to gain 30 pounds. I

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Speaker 2: had zero boundaries. I would spread myself thin to accommodate others.

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Speaker 2: Please help me make peace with this situation. I'm too

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Speaker 2: embarrassed to speak with friends and family about how I'm feeling.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Kayla.

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Speaker 1: What struck me most about Kayla's letter is that she

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Speaker 1: said that she's 27 years old. And doing the math,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like she was about 19 when she got

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Speaker 1: into that relationship that still haunts her. And it's interesting

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Speaker 1: because I think when we're younger, often we don't know

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Speaker 1: a lot about boundaries, but she still hasn't forgiven herself

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Speaker 1: for this relationship that started when she was basically a teenager.

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Speaker 1: And I'll be curious to hear why it's been so

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Speaker 1: hard for her to let go of that and to

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Speaker 1: have the self-compassion that she is trying to work on.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like she's done a lot of work on herself,

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Speaker 2: yet she's saying that nothing really has changed enough. So

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Speaker 2: That's something we have to find out. She does seem

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Speaker 2: to have a lot of insight, yet not a lot

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Speaker 2: of change is happening. Let's go find out where she's stuck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do that. You're listening to Dear Therapist from iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back after a short break.

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Speaker 3: I'm Lori Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. And this is Dear Therapist's.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Kayla. Hi, Lori. Hey, Guy. Thank you so much

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Speaker 3: for having me on the show.

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Speaker 2: You are very, very welcome.

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Speaker 1: We read your letter and we wanted to hear a

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Speaker 1: little bit first about what's been going on with your

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Speaker 1: dating life more recently.

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Speaker 3: So this might come as a bit of a shock

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Speaker 3: seeing I wrote the letter. However, I'm actually engaged to

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Speaker 3: a wonderful man. And the reason why I say you

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Speaker 3: might be shocked is because the letter, you know, I

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Speaker 3: feel like When I wrote it, it seems like I

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Speaker 3: have a lot of unresolved trauma from the past, but

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Speaker 3: my fiance is a wonderful man. It's just the past

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Speaker 3: that I can't seem to reconcile with.

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Speaker 1: So I think you wrote to us fairly recently. Tell

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Speaker 1: us how long ago you met this man and how

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Speaker 1: long you've been engaged. Yes.

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Speaker 3: So I recently got engaged about two months ago and

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Speaker 3: we've been dating for about two years now.

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Speaker 1: So when you wrote to us and you were saying

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Speaker 1: that you had this pattern of still choosing unavailable men,

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Speaker 1: you were engaged or you were with this man when

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Speaker 1: you wrote to us? Yes.

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Speaker 3: Not engaged.

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Speaker 1: You were saying you have this problem going after unavailable men,

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Speaker 1: but you'd been in a relatively long relationship with an

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Speaker 1: available man. Yes.

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Speaker 3: And it was very weird at first. I wasn't even

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Speaker 3: sure I wanted to be with someone like him. Maybe

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Speaker 3: he was too available.

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Speaker 1: What I mean is it sounded from the letter like

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Speaker 1: you had been through this pattern for the last five

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Speaker 1: years of continually dating unavailable men. When you were writing

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Speaker 1: us that letter, why do you think you left out

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Speaker 1: the fact that you happened to be in a relationship

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Speaker 1: with an available man?

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Speaker 3: I think I still feel a lot of shame for

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Speaker 3: a lot of my past decisions. And I do feel

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Speaker 3: like a fraud sometimes in my current relationship. So I

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Speaker 3: think while, yes, I am in a happy relationship, I

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Speaker 3: do also feel like maybe not deserving of the relationship.

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Speaker 2: Does the fact that you left out that detail reflect

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Speaker 2: also how you think about yourself? In other words, it's

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Speaker 2: been five years, you've done all this work in therapy,

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Speaker 2: you're actually engaged. to a good, emotionally available man at

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Speaker 2: the moment, do you still think of yourself as the

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Speaker 2: woman who was in the toxic relationship despite the fact

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Speaker 2: that you've been in a good relationship for two years?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's pretty spot on about how I

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Speaker 3: view myself.

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Speaker 2: So reality has moved on or changed, but your self-perception

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Speaker 2: hasn't updated with it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us how the feelings that you're carrying

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Speaker 1: around from the earlier relationship play out in the current relationship?

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So early on in the relationship, it was very weird

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Speaker 3: to me to have a man that was texting me

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Speaker 3: every day, wanting to spend time with me. So those

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Speaker 3: were things that freaked me out in the I noticed

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Speaker 3: that sometimes when, you know, he would make like a

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Speaker 3: small comment like, oh, I miss you or I haven't

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Speaker 3: seen you in a long time. I would have panic

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Speaker 3: attacks and I would start apologizing profusely like, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 3: I feel like such a horrible girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: That's how you interpreted him saying, I miss you?

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Speaker 3: I saw it as something like, you never make time

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Speaker 3: for me. That's how I viewed it because that's how

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Speaker 3: it was with my ex-boyfriend, Jay. But with my current fiance,

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Speaker 3: it's very different. Another example, so we lived together recently

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Speaker 3: and I tend to keep dishes in the sink sometimes.

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Speaker 3: And last week he was making a joke, oh look,

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Speaker 3: Kayla leaving her dishes in the sink again. And I

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Speaker 3: just jerked up from the couch and I was like,

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Speaker 3: oh my gosh, I'll clean this up right away. I'm

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Speaker 3: so sorry. And he even said like, relax, I was

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Speaker 3: just busting your chops. So I think I was so

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Speaker 3: scared of my ex-boyfriend, Jay, that that fear still controls

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Speaker 3: me in my current relationship.

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Speaker 2: Does he make the connection in his own head between, oh,

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Speaker 2: she's reacting strongly because of her ex?

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Speaker 3: We've had a little bit of discussions of my previous relationship.

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Speaker 3: I experienced a lot of shame. So I maybe didn't

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Speaker 3: tell him a lot of things because I didn't want

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Speaker 3: him to look at me differently. I didn't want him

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Speaker 3: to say like, Why would Kayla choose a man like that?

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Speaker 3: What's wrong with her? Even though I don't believe deep

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Speaker 3: down that's what he would think, I just choose just

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Speaker 3: not to say certain things that have happened. But he

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Speaker 3: definitely knows that I was in a very toxic relationship.

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Speaker 3: I didn't say to him that it was abusive. I

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Speaker 3: just said it was toxic.

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Speaker 1: I think what's interesting is that you thought he might say,

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with her, that she was in that relationship.

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Speaker 1: But I think that's what you say to yourself. And

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Speaker 1: that's so common with people who have been in abusive relationships.

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Speaker 1: They think something is wrong with them. And so I'd

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Speaker 1: be curious if you could tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about what actually went on in that relationship.

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Speaker 3: So the relationship spanned about three years. It was sort

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Speaker 3: of in like two phases, if you will. The first

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Speaker 3: year and a half was us trying to figure out

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Speaker 3: what we were. The second year and a half was

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Speaker 3: when we were actually in a relationship. We had met

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Speaker 3: in college. We would flirt. And when we would see

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Speaker 3: each other at parties, we would sometimes kiss when we

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Speaker 3: saw each other at the bar, but nothing ever progressed

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Speaker 3: from there. And right before he was about to graduate,

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Speaker 3: I was a few years younger than him. He told

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Speaker 3: me that he cared about me. And I realized... that

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Speaker 3: I had feelings for him as well. I realized right

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Speaker 3: after he said those words that that's all they were.

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Speaker 3: They were just words. There was no actions to back

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Speaker 3: him up because that weekend after he told me he

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Speaker 3: cared about me, I went to the bar and he

219
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Speaker 3: was making out with another girl right in front of me.

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Speaker 3: But we continue to play this game of him pretending

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Speaker 3: he didn't want me, me pretending I didn't care when

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Speaker 3: I really did. So we hung out that entire summer.

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Speaker 3: He didn't want to do long distance when I was

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Speaker 3: going back to school. And I would say that year

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Speaker 3: that I went back to school without him, I was

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Speaker 3: barely functioning. I was completely heartbroken. My grades were falling.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't even get out of bed. My drinking was

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Speaker 3: sort of out of control. I think I was coping

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Speaker 3: with the loss of this man by partying too hard.

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Speaker 3: And then when I came back home for the summer,

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Speaker 3: he reached out again and was like, let's get back together.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't even fight him. I was just like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: let's get back together. Even though he had completely broken

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Speaker 3: my heart.

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Speaker 2: So that first section, you weren't actually together. Was there

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Speaker 2: a period there where you were actually together?

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Speaker 3: The summer after he had graduated, and this is right

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Speaker 3: before my junior year of college, we were hanging out

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Speaker 3: all the time. And I fell in love with him,

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Speaker 3: which now I see it wasn't love. I almost describe

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Speaker 3: him like he was a drug. When he wouldn't text me,

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Speaker 3: I physically felt sick. And then when he would text me,

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Speaker 3: I felt like I was on top of the world.

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Speaker 3: But after every time I hung out with him, I

245
00:14:50,999 --> 00:14:56,479
Speaker 3: always felt this sense of emptiness and loneliness. And I

246
00:14:56,499 --> 00:14:59,689
Speaker 3: couldn't really pinpoint why I felt that way.

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Speaker 1: You said you felt empty after you hung out with him.

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Speaker 1: And at the same time, you said you fell in

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Speaker 1: love with him. What did it mean to be in

250
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Speaker 1: love with him? What did you love about him?

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Speaker 3: He was very popular at my college, but he was

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Speaker 3: known for being a player. He was one of, in

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Speaker 3: my opinion, one of the most attractive men at the school.

254
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Speaker 3: And he always had girls like pining over him. So

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Speaker 3: I think when got to the point where he told

256
00:15:32,789 --> 00:15:34,809
Speaker 3: me he cared about me, I almost felt like I

257
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Speaker 3: won something. I won like this prize of this, of

258
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Speaker 3: like the most attractive, most popular man at college.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying it was like winning a prize because

260
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Speaker 2: for you to be with this popular, handsome guy, kind

261
00:15:51,699 --> 00:15:54,579
Speaker 2: of elevated your status in other people's eyes, but probably

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Speaker 2: mostly in your own. Were you aware that you were

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Speaker 2: kind of tethering your self-esteem a little bit to him?

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Speaker 3: Definitely, because there were times that summer that I had

265
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Speaker 3: tried to end things with him because I really felt

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Speaker 3: like I wasn't getting what I deserved or needed. But

267
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Speaker 3: then he would always come back and say, no, I'll

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Speaker 3: fight for you. And I believe those words, but those

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Speaker 3: words were always empty with no actions to back them up.

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Speaker 3: It kept going on like that for quite a while.

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Speaker 2: What internal dialogue did you have about trying to get

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Speaker 2: yourself to not capitulate when he came and said, no,

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Speaker 2: I'll fight for you. You're the one. And was there

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Speaker 2: an internal fight about like, no, I shouldn't. Or was

275
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Speaker 2: it just like, okay, good, let's do it.

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Speaker 3: I think part of me wanted him to fight for me.

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Speaker 3: So when I got those words from him, again, I

278
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Speaker 3: felt that high, like I took a drug. So I

279
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Speaker 3: really didn't push back when he would fight for me.

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Speaker 3: And even from the point where I actually broke up

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Speaker 3: with him years later, he did try to fight for

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Speaker 3: me again. And that time I was actually done. But

283
00:17:13,909 --> 00:17:17,019
Speaker 3: at the time, I knew it was bad, but I

284
00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:20,759
Speaker 3: almost couldn't help myself. And I feel a lot of

285
00:17:20,779 --> 00:17:22,279
Speaker 3: shame around that currently.

286
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Speaker 2: I'm not sure if you're aware, but the science of

287
00:17:26,269 --> 00:17:29,229
Speaker 2: heartbreak is quite clear that what happens in our brain

288
00:17:29,269 --> 00:17:32,489
Speaker 2: when we're heartbroken is very similar to what happens in

289
00:17:32,549 --> 00:17:37,729
Speaker 2: our brain when opioid addicts are withdrawing from heroin. In

290
00:17:37,769 --> 00:17:42,849
Speaker 2: other words, you said drug, and our brain absolutely regards

291
00:17:42,929 --> 00:17:46,449
Speaker 2: it as a drug. and like heroin in the sense

292
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Speaker 2: that you feel desperate to just get a fix, to

293
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Speaker 2: just get him back, to just be in touch. And

294
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Speaker 2: you feel pointless without him. The drug is the answer

295
00:17:57,749 --> 00:18:00,989
Speaker 2: to everything. Nothing else matters when you're highly, highly addicted.

296
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Speaker 2: And everything gets devastated when you are withdrawing from strong opioids.

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Speaker 2: And that's exactly what you're describing. There's a big part

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Speaker 2: of you that does feel a lot of shame. And

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Speaker 2: I'm saying that because this is One of the most

300
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Speaker 2: remarkable findings about this brain science and heartbreak that we

301
00:18:20,689 --> 00:18:25,179
Speaker 2: are driven to do things like heroin addicts are when

302
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Speaker 2: they're withdrawing. When heroin addicts are withdrawing, that makes sense.

303
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Speaker 2: We don't know that with heartbreak. And so it didn't

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00:18:30,999 --> 00:18:34,459
Speaker 2: make sense to you. It's the same dynamic. And that's

305
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Speaker 2: why it was so hard to resist.

306
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Speaker 3: That's really good to know. I suspected it was like

307
00:18:39,419 --> 00:18:41,499
Speaker 3: a drug, but I didn't know there was actually science

308
00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:42,259
Speaker 3: to back that up.

309
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Speaker 1: How did you eventually... decide that you were going to

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Speaker 1: go to rehab, let's say, by breaking up with him?

311
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Speaker 3: So I remember this day so very clearly. He refused

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00:18:55,159 --> 00:18:58,759
Speaker 3: to come to anything that pertained to family or friends events.

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Speaker 3: And when he was around my parents, you could just

314
00:19:02,919 --> 00:19:07,409
Speaker 3: tell he was very uncomfortable. So he picked a fight

315
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Speaker 3: with me a few days before Christmas. And I knew

316
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Speaker 3: he did that because he didn't want to come to Christmas.

317
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Speaker 3: He knew I was going to beg him. So at Christmas,

318
00:19:20,419 --> 00:19:23,039
Speaker 3: when everyone was asking me like, oh, hey, where's Jay?

319
00:19:23,749 --> 00:19:25,509
Speaker 3: I was like, we broke up. And at that point

320
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Speaker 3: we actually hadn't, but I was telling everyone that because

321
00:19:28,449 --> 00:19:31,629
Speaker 3: I knew my decision was made. That was sort of

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00:19:31,669 --> 00:19:35,739
Speaker 3: like the straw that broke the camel's back. And the

323
00:19:35,779 --> 00:19:38,559
Speaker 3: next day I went over to his house and I

324
00:19:39,979 --> 00:19:43,249
Speaker 3: broke up with him. And for all the times he

325
00:19:43,329 --> 00:19:47,339
Speaker 3: watched me cry, he was the one finally crying. And

326
00:19:47,399 --> 00:19:51,119
Speaker 3: I wasn't actively happy to see him cry, but I

327
00:19:51,159 --> 00:19:53,199
Speaker 3: sort of had the mindset like, you know, cry me

328
00:19:53,219 --> 00:19:56,819
Speaker 3: a river after what you had put me through. He

329
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,819
Speaker 3: was just like watching him on his hands and knees

330
00:20:01,019 --> 00:20:04,039
Speaker 3: begging for forgiveness. And I just said to him, I

331
00:20:04,179 --> 00:20:06,859
Speaker 3: don't want to be with you anymore. I felt so

332
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,179
Speaker 3: empowered in that moment. And I walked away and he

333
00:20:11,239 --> 00:20:14,439
Speaker 3: still was following me to my car, trying to win

334
00:20:14,479 --> 00:20:16,939
Speaker 3: me back. And I said, get out of my face.

335
00:20:17,779 --> 00:20:20,869
Speaker 3: So it definitely didn't end well, but I was just

336
00:20:20,939 --> 00:20:24,509
Speaker 3: proud that for once I really stood up for myself.

337
00:20:26,229 --> 00:20:29,449
Speaker 1: What was it about that straw that broke the camel's back?

338
00:20:29,469 --> 00:20:31,269
Speaker 1: Because it sounds like he had done things like that

339
00:20:31,549 --> 00:20:35,949
Speaker 1: throughout your time together, sending these very mixed messages of

340
00:20:36,249 --> 00:20:40,309
Speaker 1: come close, no go away, come close, go away. And

341
00:20:40,989 --> 00:20:44,449
Speaker 1: then there's this one incident that sounds not that different

342
00:20:44,649 --> 00:20:46,899
Speaker 1: from the other things that went on. What was it

343
00:20:46,959 --> 00:20:47,539
Speaker 1: about that one?

344
00:20:48,139 --> 00:20:51,599
Speaker 3: I think part of me was scared of him. Again,

345
00:20:51,679 --> 00:20:55,049
Speaker 3: he was never physical with me, but I was scared

346
00:20:55,089 --> 00:20:58,669
Speaker 3: of him in the sense that, you know, he was

347
00:20:58,949 --> 00:21:03,749
Speaker 3: always yelling at me. So I definitely think at that point,

348
00:21:04,599 --> 00:21:08,319
Speaker 3: I was walking on eggshells around him, was afraid of him.

349
00:21:09,419 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 3: So I think I did know I wanted to break

350
00:21:13,459 --> 00:21:15,699
Speaker 3: up with him. I just didn't know how, because I

351
00:21:15,739 --> 00:21:17,259
Speaker 3: think I still was afraid of him.

352
00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:22,519
Speaker 1: During the relationship, were you ever able to say to him, hey,

353
00:21:22,699 --> 00:21:24,219
Speaker 1: I didn't like when you did that?

354
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,299
Speaker 3: I definitely did. At first, when we were like officially

355
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,059
Speaker 3: dating now, I wouldn't stand up for myself. Every time

356
00:21:32,099 --> 00:21:34,839
Speaker 3: he came to visit me at school, we always got

357
00:21:34,879 --> 00:21:39,179
Speaker 3: into a fight. He was always mad about something. And

358
00:21:39,339 --> 00:21:42,939
Speaker 3: I always just apologized to him and begged for his forgiveness.

359
00:21:44,089 --> 00:21:47,069
Speaker 3: And there was actually a specific incident that happened where

360
00:21:48,579 --> 00:21:51,629
Speaker 3: One of my friends was also visiting me that weekend

361
00:21:51,709 --> 00:21:54,209
Speaker 3: with him. I think it was my birthday weekend.

362
00:21:54,729 --> 00:21:55,029
Speaker 4: And I.

363
00:21:56,649 --> 00:21:59,329
Speaker 3: Just remember fighting between the two of us and it

364
00:21:59,369 --> 00:22:04,609
Speaker 3: was just awful. And the next day, my friend had

365
00:22:04,649 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 3: like pulled me aside and she said, you know, Kayla,

366
00:22:08,799 --> 00:22:12,839
Speaker 3: I'm really worried. Like he just started yelling at you

367
00:22:12,919 --> 00:22:15,139
Speaker 3: out of nowhere. She said, I was with you the

368
00:22:15,179 --> 00:22:20,379
Speaker 3: whole night. You did absolutely nothing wrong. And she wasn't like, oh,

369
00:22:20,399 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 3: break up with him. But she expressed a lot of

370
00:22:23,219 --> 00:22:27,259
Speaker 3: concern about that kind of behavior. So I think after that,

371
00:22:27,639 --> 00:22:31,619
Speaker 3: sort of the dynamics switched where I started to challenge

372
00:22:31,659 --> 00:22:35,479
Speaker 3: him because I think it felt good to have a

373
00:22:35,579 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 3: friend tell me I wasn't crazy because I legitimately thought

374
00:22:39,659 --> 00:22:41,519
Speaker 3: I was the problem in the relationship.

375
00:22:41,959 --> 00:22:45,219
Speaker 2: You know, you mentioned that you felt a lot of

376
00:22:45,319 --> 00:22:47,529
Speaker 2: and still feel a lot of shame about the relationship

377
00:22:47,549 --> 00:22:51,249
Speaker 2: and that you didn't really talk to friends much about it.

378
00:22:51,849 --> 00:22:55,049
Speaker 2: But after that experience, when a friend actually just sees something,

379
00:22:55,089 --> 00:22:56,629
Speaker 2: and a good friend she is to come up to

380
00:22:56,669 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 2: you and say, I'm worried, without going too much further

381
00:22:59,899 --> 00:23:01,839
Speaker 2: than I'm worried, I think she handled that really well.

382
00:23:03,239 --> 00:23:06,539
Speaker 2: Why did that not make you feel more comfortable, even

383
00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:10,559
Speaker 2: with this one friend, being more open about what was

384
00:23:10,619 --> 00:23:14,149
Speaker 2: going on or sharing some of the dilemmas or the

385
00:23:14,819 --> 00:23:19,539
Speaker 2: painful moments, why did you still keep that to yourself

386
00:23:19,679 --> 00:23:22,499
Speaker 2: when here's one friend who sees there's something going on

387
00:23:22,539 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 2: and is clearly supportive?

388
00:23:24,979 --> 00:23:28,319
Speaker 3: I think I didn't share because I knew what everyone

389
00:23:28,339 --> 00:23:30,659
Speaker 3: was going to say. I think I knew people were

390
00:23:30,679 --> 00:23:33,189
Speaker 3: going to tell me to leave him. And I don't

391
00:23:33,219 --> 00:23:35,089
Speaker 3: think I was ready at that point.

392
00:23:35,329 --> 00:23:38,929
Speaker 2: It's interesting, Kayla, because in fact, the friend you pointed

393
00:23:38,969 --> 00:23:42,009
Speaker 2: out very specifically in the first comment was, I'm worried

394
00:23:42,049 --> 00:23:44,049
Speaker 2: for you. And you specifically said she didn't tell me

395
00:23:44,089 --> 00:23:46,429
Speaker 2: I should leave her in it. It was your own

396
00:23:46,489 --> 00:23:49,229
Speaker 2: fear that if I tell them and I am open

397
00:23:49,249 --> 00:23:52,469
Speaker 2: with them and I hear my own mouth say these

398
00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:56,029
Speaker 2: things about him, I'll think I really have to leave

399
00:23:56,739 --> 00:23:58,959
Speaker 2: rather than they'll think I really have to leave.

400
00:24:00,199 --> 00:24:01,539
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

401
00:24:01,979 --> 00:24:03,659
Speaker 1: And that makes me wonder a little bit if you

402
00:24:03,679 --> 00:24:09,519
Speaker 1: have any ideas now, in retrospect, about what Do you

403
00:24:09,539 --> 00:24:11,799
Speaker 1: think it was that made you continue to stay in

404
00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 1: a relationship where that behavior was going on?

405
00:24:14,199 --> 00:24:18,459
Speaker 3: I think my childhood was not that great in the

406
00:24:18,539 --> 00:24:23,339
Speaker 3: sense that in school, I was the weird girl. I

407
00:24:23,419 --> 00:24:27,239
Speaker 3: was the girl that didn't have any friends. I struggled

408
00:24:28,039 --> 00:24:31,099
Speaker 3: academically up until I got to high school. And I

409
00:24:31,179 --> 00:24:36,719
Speaker 3: also wasn't athletic. So I think from a social aspect...

410
00:24:36,999 --> 00:24:40,289
Speaker 3: I didn't have that much confidence because I was that

411
00:24:40,569 --> 00:24:43,129
Speaker 3: weird girl. So I think that's why I was even

412
00:24:43,189 --> 00:24:47,209
Speaker 3: more attracted to him at first because here I was

413
00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:50,739
Speaker 3: getting attention from the popular kid, which was something I

414
00:24:51,459 --> 00:24:54,239
Speaker 3: think my inner child desired.

415
00:24:54,519 --> 00:24:56,139
Speaker 2: What made you weird exactly?

416
00:24:57,299 --> 00:25:00,329
Speaker 3: I was one of the youngest kids in my grade

417
00:25:00,929 --> 00:25:07,529
Speaker 3: and I just struggled academically. Looking back, I just believe

418
00:25:07,569 --> 00:25:13,049
Speaker 3: that I was physically and emotionally immature. And my parents

419
00:25:13,189 --> 00:25:16,339
Speaker 3: are blue collar workers. So I think, you know, while

420
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,219
Speaker 3: they were very physically present, they didn't really know how

421
00:25:20,279 --> 00:25:23,999
Speaker 3: to help me academically. So I would always like bring

422
00:25:24,039 --> 00:25:26,059
Speaker 3: home like failed tests and they would just yell at

423
00:25:26,099 --> 00:25:29,289
Speaker 3: me to get better grades, but never actually helping me to.

424
00:25:29,789 --> 00:25:33,259
Speaker 3: Teachers like told my parents I should be in special

425
00:25:33,479 --> 00:25:38,249
Speaker 3: education classes. So that only further made me think low

426
00:25:38,289 --> 00:25:40,649
Speaker 3: of myself, but I just didn't really have the right

427
00:25:40,709 --> 00:25:45,309
Speaker 3: resources available to me. And it was funny, by the

428
00:25:45,349 --> 00:25:47,229
Speaker 3: time I got to high school, I started to get

429
00:25:47,509 --> 00:25:50,809
Speaker 3: straight A's. And I think the reason I'm such an

430
00:25:50,949 --> 00:25:55,579
Speaker 3: overachiever now is because of that feeling like I have

431
00:25:55,619 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 3: to prove something. That inner child, I still think hurts.

432
00:26:00,189 --> 00:26:02,769
Speaker 3: or grieves like the life that she thought she should

433
00:26:02,809 --> 00:26:04,869
Speaker 3: have had. It was definitely rough.

434
00:26:05,229 --> 00:26:08,189
Speaker 1: In your letter, you talked about grieving this time in

435
00:26:08,209 --> 00:26:11,009
Speaker 1: your life that you spent with Jay. But what you're

436
00:26:11,049 --> 00:26:16,579
Speaker 1: talking about now is grieving those years of childhood long

437
00:26:16,619 --> 00:26:20,779
Speaker 1: before you met Jay, when you were so isolated, so alone,

438
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,759
Speaker 1: weren't really seen in the way that you needed to

439
00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:26,269
Speaker 1: be seen. And I think this grief piece is really

440
00:26:26,329 --> 00:26:32,499
Speaker 1: important because When we're trying to process a loss, sometimes

441
00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:35,459
Speaker 1: what we do is we confuse one loss with another loss.

442
00:26:36,689 --> 00:26:39,569
Speaker 1: And because you had had that experience in childhood, and

443
00:26:39,609 --> 00:26:42,469
Speaker 1: then you had this experience of a not very good

444
00:26:42,509 --> 00:26:48,509
Speaker 1: relationship in your late teens, early 20s, you're still, you

445
00:26:48,549 --> 00:26:53,949
Speaker 1: say in your letter, grieving this period of your life

446
00:26:54,469 --> 00:26:58,509
Speaker 1: that you wish had gone differently. And I wonder if

447
00:26:58,589 --> 00:27:02,009
Speaker 1: you would feel that same way about the J relationship

448
00:27:02,399 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: if you hadn't also been grieving the losses that you

449
00:27:06,439 --> 00:27:07,519
Speaker 1: experienced in childhood.

450
00:27:08,699 --> 00:27:08,979
Speaker 5: Yeah.

451
00:27:10,439 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 3: I do wonder that sometimes, but it definitely feels lonely

452
00:27:16,899 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 3: because I feel like sometimes I can't really talk about

453
00:27:19,719 --> 00:27:22,309
Speaker 3: it with anyone.

454
00:27:22,709 --> 00:27:24,549
Speaker 1: Because what do you imagine would happen?

455
00:27:26,109 --> 00:27:29,239
Speaker 3: I just think You know, my family and friends have

456
00:27:29,259 --> 00:27:32,009
Speaker 3: been like worried about me probably up until like a

457
00:27:32,049 --> 00:27:35,569
Speaker 3: few years ago. And I just feel like I need

458
00:27:35,589 --> 00:27:39,069
Speaker 3: to present like this stable person at this point. So

459
00:27:39,109 --> 00:27:43,139
Speaker 3: I sort of suppress a lot of what I'm feeling

460
00:27:43,699 --> 00:27:48,899
Speaker 3: or I'll tell my therapist, but it definitely feels lonely.

461
00:27:48,919 --> 00:27:52,019
Speaker 3: I want to forget about it on the outside, but

462
00:27:52,059 --> 00:27:54,339
Speaker 3: on the inside, I can't forget about it.

463
00:27:54,859 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: Do your parents know you said that your friends would

464
00:27:57,399 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: notice some of Jay's behavior? Did your parents ever say,

465
00:28:01,739 --> 00:28:02,699
Speaker 1: we're worried about this?

466
00:28:03,879 --> 00:28:09,529
Speaker 3: They never said anything. Recently, in the last couple of years,

467
00:28:09,589 --> 00:28:14,129
Speaker 3: they've said, we didn't know it was this bad. You

468
00:28:14,609 --> 00:28:17,389
Speaker 3: hid a lot from us. But they said we knew

469
00:28:17,409 --> 00:28:22,699
Speaker 3: the relationship wasn't good. They didn't realize it was abusive.

470
00:28:23,399 --> 00:28:25,339
Speaker 1: And how did they find out that it was abusive

471
00:28:25,399 --> 00:28:26,839
Speaker 1: if you weren't talking about it?

472
00:28:27,379 --> 00:28:31,299
Speaker 3: My sister had told them. There was one night I

473
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 3: had a complete mental breakdown about this.

474
00:28:35,419 --> 00:28:36,819
Speaker 1: After the relationship ended?

475
00:28:37,139 --> 00:28:37,459
Speaker 4: Yeah.

476
00:28:37,699 --> 00:28:40,659
Speaker 3: After I had pursued one of these emotionally unavailable guys.

477
00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:45,649
Speaker 3: Once that happened, I sort of was like crying over

478
00:28:45,669 --> 00:28:47,209
Speaker 3: that guy as well as Jay.

479
00:28:47,229 --> 00:28:47,399
Speaker 5: And....

480
00:28:49,229 --> 00:28:51,809
Speaker 3: Like my parents like sometimes would joke about my ex, Jay.

481
00:28:51,869 --> 00:28:54,589
Speaker 3: And I think when they were joking one time, my

482
00:28:54,669 --> 00:28:59,409
Speaker 3: sister said like, you don't, you can't joke about that relationship.

483
00:28:59,449 --> 00:29:01,949
Speaker 3: You don't realize how bad it was. And I think

484
00:29:02,009 --> 00:29:06,779
Speaker 3: my parents were floored. She just was trying to get

485
00:29:06,839 --> 00:29:11,259
Speaker 3: like my parents to realize that they failed me in

486
00:29:11,299 --> 00:29:14,739
Speaker 3: a sense. At least that's my sister told my parents.

487
00:29:14,859 --> 00:29:15,659
Speaker 3: That's her opinion.

488
00:29:16,559 --> 00:29:19,289
Speaker 1: What does your sister think? think your parents should have

489
00:29:19,329 --> 00:29:21,029
Speaker 1: done or what do you think they should have done

490
00:29:21,409 --> 00:29:23,869
Speaker 1: given that they didn't know what was going on?

491
00:29:24,869 --> 00:29:27,909
Speaker 3: Like I said, my parents, blue collar workers, we didn't

492
00:29:27,949 --> 00:29:30,289
Speaker 3: have the most money growing up, but they really worked

493
00:29:30,949 --> 00:29:35,389
Speaker 3: very hard to give us a good life. And as

494
00:29:35,469 --> 00:29:38,529
Speaker 3: much as I love them, I think growing up, their

495
00:29:38,629 --> 00:29:41,589
Speaker 3: focus was always on what looks good on paper. The

496
00:29:42,029 --> 00:29:44,389
Speaker 3: message me and my sister received when we were going

497
00:29:44,409 --> 00:29:46,659
Speaker 3: to college, like you need to pick a major that

498
00:29:47,099 --> 00:29:50,059
Speaker 3: You're going to make six figures right out of school.

499
00:29:50,259 --> 00:29:52,279
Speaker 3: You cannot major in education. You're not going to get

500
00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:57,039
Speaker 3: a job as a teacher. Keeping me in sports growing

501
00:29:57,099 --> 00:30:00,059
Speaker 3: up when I wasn't good at them, and that sort

502
00:30:00,109 --> 00:30:04,929
Speaker 3: of like ruined my self-confidence because when you're, you know,

503
00:30:04,949 --> 00:30:09,149
Speaker 3: an 11-year-old girl, you compare yourself to your peers. And,

504
00:30:09,169 --> 00:30:11,609
Speaker 3: you know, me and my sister used to cry and

505
00:30:11,649 --> 00:30:14,759
Speaker 3: beg our parents, you know, please let us quit this sport.

506
00:30:14,819 --> 00:30:18,059
Speaker 3: Please let us quit this club. And it was always like, no,

507
00:30:18,239 --> 00:30:20,659
Speaker 3: you have to do everything you can do to like

508
00:30:20,719 --> 00:30:25,299
Speaker 3: make your resume look good. So I think my sister,

509
00:30:25,319 --> 00:30:30,479
Speaker 3: you know, felt like my parents failed me in the

510
00:30:30,539 --> 00:30:33,569
Speaker 3: sense that they never cared about my happiness.

511
00:30:34,569 --> 00:30:38,429
Speaker 1: That you didn't have the tools to really listen to

512
00:30:38,489 --> 00:30:41,409
Speaker 1: what you wanted or desired because you didn't have practice

513
00:30:41,449 --> 00:30:41,849
Speaker 1: with that.

514
00:30:42,949 --> 00:30:43,189
Speaker 4: Yeah.

515
00:30:43,469 --> 00:30:47,399
Speaker 3: Like everything I would like, come to my parents with

516
00:30:47,439 --> 00:30:50,919
Speaker 3: was always dismissed. you know something as silly as wanting

517
00:30:50,979 --> 00:30:55,779
Speaker 3: to quit softball I would have so much anxiety going

518
00:30:55,839 --> 00:30:59,279
Speaker 3: to practice I used to cry in the bathroom because

519
00:30:59,339 --> 00:31:02,639
Speaker 3: I didn't want to play it and I would cry

520
00:31:02,699 --> 00:31:04,699
Speaker 3: to my parents and it was just sort of like

521
00:31:04,999 --> 00:31:11,149
Speaker 3: too bad so I think I Just learned to do

522
00:31:11,229 --> 00:31:14,969
Speaker 3: things that I didn't want to do in life. Learned

523
00:31:14,989 --> 00:31:19,809
Speaker 3: to stay in jobs too long, stayed in relationships longer

524
00:31:19,829 --> 00:31:20,709
Speaker 3: than I wanted to.

525
00:31:21,489 --> 00:31:24,449
Speaker 1: You said that your parents were really concerned about you

526
00:31:24,509 --> 00:31:26,639
Speaker 1: getting a job where you made a lot of money

527
00:31:26,699 --> 00:31:30,179
Speaker 1: right out of college and that things looked a certain way.

528
00:31:31,019 --> 00:31:35,299
Speaker 1: Did you end up choosing a career based on what

529
00:31:35,339 --> 00:31:35,859
Speaker 1: they wanted?

530
00:31:35,879 --> 00:31:39,689
Speaker 3: A hundred percent. I was always good at math in

531
00:31:39,709 --> 00:31:42,189
Speaker 3: high school because I had sort of dealt with a

532
00:31:42,209 --> 00:31:45,269
Speaker 3: lot of depression and anxiety. I actually wanted to major

533
00:31:45,289 --> 00:31:48,679
Speaker 3: in psychology. I wanted to become like a therapist because

534
00:31:48,939 --> 00:31:52,879
Speaker 3: I said I wanted to help people like me. And

535
00:31:54,359 --> 00:31:57,379
Speaker 3: I was told like, no, you're going to need to

536
00:31:57,419 --> 00:32:00,959
Speaker 3: go to grad school for that major. It was basically like,

537
00:32:01,099 --> 00:32:03,989
Speaker 3: you're good at math. So just do something in business.

538
00:32:04,089 --> 00:32:09,809
Speaker 3: So I chose finance and math. I definitely didn't belong

539
00:32:09,849 --> 00:32:14,459
Speaker 3: in that major. I think a lot of the reasons

540
00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:18,219
Speaker 3: why I even stayed in my relationship with Jay is

541
00:32:18,239 --> 00:32:22,979
Speaker 3: because I was very unhappy in college, forcing something that

542
00:32:23,039 --> 00:32:26,879
Speaker 3: wasn't meant for me. And he was my only source

543
00:32:26,919 --> 00:32:29,179
Speaker 3: of happiness, really, at the time. I mean, he wasn't

544
00:32:29,499 --> 00:32:32,069
Speaker 3: happiness for me, but that was my only crutch.

545
00:32:32,629 --> 00:32:33,789
Speaker 1: Let's call it an escape.

546
00:32:35,129 --> 00:32:35,289
Speaker 4: Yeah.

547
00:32:35,309 --> 00:32:35,409
Speaker 5: Yeah.

548
00:32:35,999 --> 00:32:37,859
Speaker 3: And even the message, like you have to get a

549
00:32:37,899 --> 00:32:42,479
Speaker 3: job at a big bank. And that job was also

550
00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:47,369
Speaker 3: one of the worst experiences of my life. I don't

551
00:32:47,589 --> 00:32:51,869
Speaker 3: actively blame my parents anymore. I see them for who

552
00:32:51,909 --> 00:32:57,749
Speaker 3: they are with their own issues. I just wished they

553
00:32:57,769 --> 00:33:02,279
Speaker 3: would have listened to me. I wish I would have

554
00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:05,599
Speaker 3: had the insight to like, go to college and choose

555
00:33:05,639 --> 00:33:09,569
Speaker 3: my own major. Or at least I wish I could

556
00:33:09,589 --> 00:33:12,949
Speaker 3: have dual majored in psychology. I wish I would have

557
00:33:13,849 --> 00:33:17,069
Speaker 3: done something for myself. But the message was so ingrained

558
00:33:17,129 --> 00:33:19,869
Speaker 3: in me that life is hard and you just have

559
00:33:19,889 --> 00:33:21,189
Speaker 3: to accept it for what it is.

560
00:33:22,689 --> 00:33:25,809
Speaker 1: Have you ever told them that you feel this way?

561
00:33:27,619 --> 00:33:27,879
Speaker 5: Yes.

562
00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:32,359
Speaker 3: They harbor a lot of guilt. My parents were actually

563
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:37,299
Speaker 3: pain recently for my therapy and I didn't ask them to.

564
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:42,979
Speaker 3: I think they just feel so bad for what had happened.

565
00:33:43,239 --> 00:33:46,059
Speaker 3: And they've seen me have, you know, a ton of

566
00:33:46,119 --> 00:33:51,319
Speaker 3: mental breakdowns over my job. So I think knowing that

567
00:33:51,399 --> 00:33:55,539
Speaker 3: they're sorry helped me forgive them a little bit.

568
00:33:56,819 --> 00:33:59,519
Speaker 1: And not just being sorry, but knowing that they can

569
00:33:59,659 --> 00:34:00,559
Speaker 1: actually see you.

570
00:34:03,189 --> 00:34:05,909
Speaker 2: Kayla, you said your sister, the one that told your

571
00:34:05,949 --> 00:34:09,689
Speaker 2: parents about what was going on with Jay, and your

572
00:34:09,749 --> 00:34:12,829
Speaker 2: sister's the one that got through to them about this

573
00:34:12,869 --> 00:34:15,829
Speaker 2: stuff as well. Do you have a relationship now where

574
00:34:16,109 --> 00:34:18,729
Speaker 2: you don't need your sister? And if something is going on,

575
00:34:18,789 --> 00:34:20,589
Speaker 2: if there's something you wanted to bring up, you feel

576
00:34:20,649 --> 00:34:23,049
Speaker 2: comfortable doing it in a way that they can hear

577
00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:23,789
Speaker 2: and respond to?

578
00:34:25,099 --> 00:34:28,979
Speaker 3: Luckily, yes. It took me a long time to get there,

579
00:34:29,079 --> 00:34:34,309
Speaker 3: but I have really strong boundaries with my parents and

580
00:34:34,349 --> 00:34:38,369
Speaker 3: they respect them. For example, my mother, she knows when

581
00:34:38,409 --> 00:34:41,009
Speaker 3: she comments on my clothes. I know it's very trivial,

582
00:34:41,129 --> 00:34:44,989
Speaker 3: but if she comments on my appearance, she knows I'm

583
00:34:45,009 --> 00:34:48,029
Speaker 3: going to flip out on her. Probably isn't the mature

584
00:34:48,089 --> 00:34:51,139
Speaker 3: thing to do, but I've gotten into a place where

585
00:34:52,059 --> 00:34:57,019
Speaker 3: my boundaries are my boundaries. And I'm really proud of

586
00:34:57,059 --> 00:34:59,019
Speaker 3: the boundaries I have with my parents. And I think

587
00:34:59,079 --> 00:35:02,099
Speaker 3: because they respect my boundaries, I can have a good

588
00:35:02,139 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 3: relationship with them.

589
00:35:04,419 --> 00:35:09,079
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if the timing of having boundaries with your

590
00:35:09,139 --> 00:35:13,289
Speaker 1: parents and having them really see you coincides with not

591
00:35:13,369 --> 00:35:18,429
Speaker 1: going after unavailable men anymore and meeting your fiance.

592
00:35:19,909 --> 00:35:22,509
Speaker 3: So I think some of the men, both two of

593
00:35:22,549 --> 00:35:26,249
Speaker 3: them were divorced and they were only divorced for a month.

594
00:35:26,509 --> 00:35:28,499
Speaker 3: So I think that should have been my first red

595
00:35:28,559 --> 00:35:32,199
Speaker 3: flag that maybe they weren't ready to being in a relationship.

596
00:35:32,799 --> 00:35:36,829
Speaker 3: I think after dating some men like this, I had

597
00:35:37,289 --> 00:35:41,029
Speaker 3: rules for myself. One of them was something as silly

598
00:35:41,149 --> 00:35:44,009
Speaker 3: as they couldn't add me on social media unless they

599
00:35:44,049 --> 00:35:47,729
Speaker 3: were serious about being serious with me. I try to

600
00:35:47,749 --> 00:35:50,769
Speaker 3: look at everything and say like, okay, they may have

601
00:35:50,789 --> 00:35:53,699
Speaker 3: messed up, but where did I fail to see the

602
00:35:53,729 --> 00:35:56,079
Speaker 3: red flags? What did I just sweep under the rug

603
00:35:56,139 --> 00:35:56,979
Speaker 3: that shouldn't have been?

604
00:35:57,559 --> 00:36:02,769
Speaker 1: So it sounds like you were learning- from these relationships

605
00:36:02,849 --> 00:36:05,429
Speaker 1: with people who weren't available or weren't wanting what you

606
00:36:05,469 --> 00:36:08,469
Speaker 1: were wanting at the same time. But in your letter,

607
00:36:08,689 --> 00:36:11,709
Speaker 1: you present it as if you're just not learning anything.

608
00:36:11,749 --> 00:36:15,029
Speaker 1: You said something like, I've learned nothing from this. And

609
00:36:15,069 --> 00:36:18,209
Speaker 1: yet you were starting to set boundaries. You were coming

610
00:36:18,289 --> 00:36:21,459
Speaker 1: up with, what are my limits? You were looking at

611
00:36:21,479 --> 00:36:24,119
Speaker 1: yourself and saying, what is my role in this? And

612
00:36:24,159 --> 00:36:27,859
Speaker 1: then you started to have a different relationship with your parents.

613
00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:32,329
Speaker 1: And you also met your fiancee. So help us understand

614
00:36:32,669 --> 00:36:37,069
Speaker 1: your perception from your letter that nothing has changed to,

615
00:36:37,989 --> 00:36:41,329
Speaker 1: I met this guy and I'm in this really different

616
00:36:41,369 --> 00:36:43,499
Speaker 1: relationship than I've ever been in.

617
00:36:44,419 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 3: I still see myself as this helpless young child. As

618
00:36:52,579 --> 00:36:56,249
Speaker 3: proud as I am of the strides I've made, as

619
00:36:56,309 --> 00:36:59,889
Speaker 3: happy as I am with my fiance, I still am scared.

620
00:37:00,629 --> 00:37:05,659
Speaker 3: that I can't trust myself. I'm even scared to be

621
00:37:05,679 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 3: a thousand percent happy with my fiance because I'm scared

622
00:37:10,299 --> 00:37:12,219
Speaker 3: that I'm just going to keep making mistakes.

623
00:37:12,759 --> 00:37:15,259
Speaker 2: Can you just clarify what mistakes you could make with

624
00:37:15,299 --> 00:37:16,439
Speaker 2: your fiance right now?

625
00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:21,509
Speaker 3: For example, I'm scared to want a baby. And the

626
00:37:21,549 --> 00:37:23,649
Speaker 3: reason why I'm scared to want a baby is because

627
00:37:23,669 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 3: I convinced myself that I'm infertile Even though I go

628
00:37:27,839 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 3: to the doctors yearly, there's nothing wrong with me, but

629
00:37:31,959 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 3: I'm just convinced that I can't have what other people have.

630
00:37:35,779 --> 00:37:40,019
Speaker 3: And I'm even like scared to plan a wedding because

631
00:37:40,939 --> 00:37:43,449
Speaker 3: I'm just, I'm just like, it's going to rain. Something's

632
00:37:43,469 --> 00:37:46,969
Speaker 3: going to happen. I'm just like, oh, like, let me

633
00:37:46,989 --> 00:37:50,429
Speaker 3: just elope so that I don't have expectations. I sort

634
00:37:50,469 --> 00:37:55,769
Speaker 3: of self-sabotage to manage so-called foreseeable failure.

635
00:37:56,939 --> 00:37:59,059
Speaker 1: So desire is dangerous.

636
00:38:00,869 --> 00:38:01,119
Speaker 4: Yes.

637
00:38:01,499 --> 00:38:04,189
Speaker 1: Because the other shoe could easily drop. Yeah.

638
00:38:04,909 --> 00:38:07,549
Speaker 3: So that's why sometimes I feel like a fraud. My

639
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:10,189
Speaker 3: fiance adores me and I'm like, what do you adore?

640
00:38:10,449 --> 00:38:12,549
Speaker 3: He's never given me a reason not to trust him

641
00:38:12,609 --> 00:38:17,329
Speaker 3: or every day he shows me that he loves me

642
00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:19,309
Speaker 3: in some capacity.

643
00:38:20,009 --> 00:38:21,469
Speaker 1: What do you love about him?

644
00:38:23,059 --> 00:38:28,889
Speaker 3: I love that He's always there for me. Besides the

645
00:38:28,929 --> 00:38:31,609
Speaker 3: fact that he's very physically attractive, at least to me,

646
00:38:31,629 --> 00:38:37,469
Speaker 3: his comfort to me is everything. His friendship to me

647
00:38:37,529 --> 00:38:41,889
Speaker 3: is everything. He's a very sensitive guy and that's very

648
00:38:41,979 --> 00:38:45,159
Speaker 3: different than anyone I've ever dated. His emotions are on

649
00:38:45,219 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 3: his sleeve and I never have to guess what he's thinking.

650
00:38:49,819 --> 00:38:57,099
Speaker 3: He surprises me with flowers all the time. or he'll

651
00:38:57,159 --> 00:38:59,529
Speaker 3: cook for me. And he'll say like, you know, I

652
00:38:59,529 --> 00:39:01,709
Speaker 3: made this meal with love, just a lot of little

653
00:39:01,789 --> 00:39:06,329
Speaker 3: things that I really have grown to appreciate about him.

654
00:39:06,909 --> 00:39:09,569
Speaker 1: So you were talking about how cared for you feel

655
00:39:09,589 --> 00:39:13,629
Speaker 1: by your fiance. And at the same time, you're afraid

656
00:39:13,709 --> 00:39:17,519
Speaker 1: to really talk to him about some of your experiences

657
00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:20,259
Speaker 1: that still live inside of you. What do you think

658
00:39:21,339 --> 00:39:25,249
Speaker 1: makes for that disconnect between I really trust this person

659
00:39:25,469 --> 00:39:30,349
Speaker 1: and I really feel cared for. And I also don't

660
00:39:30,489 --> 00:39:33,789
Speaker 1: want to open up to him. Is that the other

661
00:39:33,809 --> 00:39:35,999
Speaker 1: shoe's going to drop? And if so, how might it drop?

662
00:39:37,199 --> 00:39:40,519
Speaker 3: I don't think he would leave me or anything if

663
00:39:40,599 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 3: I did open up. I really think it's rooted back

664
00:39:44,739 --> 00:39:48,559
Speaker 3: in the shame I still feel from the experience. I

665
00:39:48,599 --> 00:39:54,939
Speaker 3: want to present that things are peachy when in reality

666
00:39:55,279 --> 00:40:01,379
Speaker 3: there's turmoil inside. I think it's really just the vulnerability

667
00:40:01,439 --> 00:40:06,629
Speaker 3: of opening up to such rough subjects to dark times

668
00:40:06,669 --> 00:40:07,169
Speaker 3: in my life.

669
00:40:07,549 --> 00:40:09,789
Speaker 2: You have shame about the relationship with Jay, but do

670
00:40:09,809 --> 00:40:15,549
Speaker 2: you also have shame specifically about your elementary school experiences? Yeah.

671
00:40:15,769 --> 00:40:18,019
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, what are, what are people going

672
00:40:18,039 --> 00:40:21,229
Speaker 3: to say if I'm like, Oh, You know, I was

673
00:40:21,249 --> 00:40:24,289
Speaker 3: a loser in elementary school. And I know that's dramatic.

674
00:40:24,329 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 3: I know it's not that dark, but, you know, it

675
00:40:28,579 --> 00:40:29,139
Speaker 3: scares me.

676
00:40:29,419 --> 00:40:33,439
Speaker 1: I notice how much you downplay your experiences. Earlier in

677
00:40:33,479 --> 00:40:35,949
Speaker 1: our conversation, you said about a boundary that you were setting.

678
00:40:35,989 --> 00:40:38,469
Speaker 1: This might sound silly. When it was not a silly

679
00:40:38,509 --> 00:40:41,689
Speaker 1: boundary at all. it was a very valid boundary to set.

680
00:40:43,089 --> 00:40:46,329
Speaker 1: And now you're saying you're being dramatic by talking about

681
00:40:46,389 --> 00:40:50,429
Speaker 1: what sounds like a very lonely and painful time in

682
00:40:50,449 --> 00:40:55,069
Speaker 1: your childhood. You said after the J relationship that they

683
00:40:55,129 --> 00:40:58,429
Speaker 1: have to be emotionally available. They have to be stable.

684
00:40:59,389 --> 00:41:01,469
Speaker 1: And you have this partner who seems to be that.

685
00:41:03,209 --> 00:41:07,569
Speaker 1: But you don't seem to want to be emotionally available

686
00:41:08,989 --> 00:41:13,499
Speaker 1: in your upcoming marriage. What do you think will happen

687
00:41:13,599 --> 00:41:16,199
Speaker 1: if you continue to hide like this?

688
00:41:16,219 --> 00:41:20,579
Speaker 3: I mean, worst case, a divorce. Obviously, that's not something

689
00:41:20,599 --> 00:41:24,699
Speaker 3: I would ever want. But I understand what you're saying, Lori.

690
00:41:25,279 --> 00:41:27,099
Speaker 3: We did have kids. If I'm going to do what

691
00:41:27,139 --> 00:41:30,849
Speaker 3: my parents did, to my kids and invalidate their emotions that,

692
00:41:30,869 --> 00:41:34,559
Speaker 3: you know, that terrifies me to even have kids to know, like,

693
00:41:34,999 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 3: what if I screw them up the way my parents

694
00:41:36,839 --> 00:41:40,559
Speaker 3: screwed me up? You know, what if I invalidate their

695
00:41:40,599 --> 00:41:46,049
Speaker 3: emotions or their needs? Or, you know, if I have kids,

696
00:41:46,069 --> 00:41:48,609
Speaker 3: what if I try to give them the life that

697
00:41:48,929 --> 00:41:51,509
Speaker 3: I always wanted but never had and force them to

698
00:41:51,569 --> 00:41:52,669
Speaker 3: do things they don't want to do?

699
00:41:53,509 --> 00:41:56,619
Speaker 1: First of all, it sounds like you're so aware of

700
00:41:56,699 --> 00:42:00,539
Speaker 1: these things. in a way that parents who do do

701
00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:02,959
Speaker 1: those things to their kids maybe aren't so aware that

702
00:42:02,979 --> 00:42:07,169
Speaker 1: they're doing it. But also, you went away from my question.

703
00:42:07,529 --> 00:42:10,549
Speaker 1: And I bring that up because, again, we're talking about

704
00:42:10,589 --> 00:42:15,249
Speaker 1: the emotional intimacy with your fiancé. And when I go there,

705
00:42:16,089 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: you go to a different worry. So if we can

706
00:42:21,399 --> 00:42:23,459
Speaker 1: sit for a second and think about that and see

707
00:42:23,479 --> 00:42:29,249
Speaker 1: what happens in your body as that question arises. goes

708
00:42:29,289 --> 00:42:35,909
Speaker 1: through you you imagine being emotionally available to him what

709
00:42:35,929 --> 00:42:38,929
Speaker 1: do you imagine it will feel like to be with

710
00:42:38,969 --> 00:42:43,119
Speaker 1: this person who really cares about you but then you

711
00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:45,479
Speaker 1: stay closed off in certain ways so you're kind of

712
00:42:45,579 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: unknowable he doesn't really get to know you and in

713
00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: in certain ways you won't really get to know him.

714
00:42:52,839 --> 00:42:57,089
Speaker 3: Feels like really unfair to him and to myself.

715
00:42:58,709 --> 00:42:59,929
Speaker 1: How does it feel unfair to you?

716
00:43:02,039 --> 00:43:06,639
Speaker 3: Because I deserve to make peace and I deserve to

717
00:43:06,739 --> 00:43:16,099
Speaker 3: express myself. And I just keep denying myself that. And

718
00:43:16,119 --> 00:43:19,579
Speaker 3: it's only going to just further confirm to myself this

719
00:43:19,639 --> 00:43:25,379
Speaker 3: belief that I'm not worthy. It's a cruel form of self-sabotage.

720
00:43:25,979 --> 00:43:30,309
Speaker 1: It's self-sabotage in the name of self-protection. except that it

721
00:43:30,369 --> 00:43:33,929
Speaker 1: doesn't actually protect you. It leaves you more vulnerable to

722
00:43:33,969 --> 00:43:34,829
Speaker 1: things going wrong.

723
00:43:36,169 --> 00:43:36,469
Speaker 5: Yeah.

724
00:43:36,989 --> 00:43:40,329
Speaker 2: What I'm hearing from you is that there is a

725
00:43:40,729 --> 00:43:45,469
Speaker 2: way in which you actually really don't feel worthy because

726
00:43:45,729 --> 00:43:50,609
Speaker 2: you still feel in part and too much like the

727
00:43:51,149 --> 00:43:56,629
Speaker 2: weirdo kid, the loser, as you represent it. And you

728
00:43:56,669 --> 00:44:01,419
Speaker 2: still have so much shame around Jay, and I think

729
00:44:01,479 --> 00:44:05,179
Speaker 2: what's preventing you from opening up and being emotionally available

730
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,409
Speaker 2: to your fiance and to other people in your life, perhaps,

731
00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:14,849
Speaker 2: is that there is very, very little self-compassion in all

732
00:44:14,909 --> 00:44:20,749
Speaker 2: those formulations. You are viewing yourself through the eyes of

733
00:44:20,969 --> 00:44:25,149
Speaker 2: a young girl that was really suffering. And really having

734
00:44:25,189 --> 00:44:28,289
Speaker 2: a hard time till you can start thinking of your

735
00:44:28,329 --> 00:44:34,029
Speaker 2: history and of yourself with much, much more self-compassion. It's

736
00:44:34,069 --> 00:44:35,829
Speaker 2: going to be very hard for you to open up.

737
00:44:36,069 --> 00:44:40,109
Speaker 1: Yeah. You said that your finance job made you miserable.

738
00:44:41,769 --> 00:44:43,999
Speaker 1: Have you made a change since that job?

739
00:44:45,619 --> 00:44:49,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, I quit. It was sort of another moment similar

740
00:44:49,419 --> 00:44:51,459
Speaker 3: to when I broke up with Jay, where I felt

741
00:44:51,539 --> 00:44:55,919
Speaker 3: very empowered. Within like two months, I literally lost like

742
00:44:55,919 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 3: 25 pounds. Like just the stress just evaporated from my body.

743
00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:04,829
Speaker 3: That's how much stress I was holding in to my

744
00:45:04,889 --> 00:45:08,129
Speaker 3: body from that job. And it just left. I didn't

745
00:45:08,169 --> 00:45:11,309
Speaker 3: even like change my diet. And everyone was like, you

746
00:45:11,329 --> 00:45:14,349
Speaker 3: just look like a different person. And I think once

747
00:45:14,409 --> 00:45:17,469
Speaker 3: I left that job that was suffocating to me is

748
00:45:17,509 --> 00:45:24,039
Speaker 3: when I really decided that things needed to change. I

749
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:26,579
Speaker 3: almost can thank my fiance a little bit for that

750
00:45:26,659 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 3: because he has a job that he loves and he

751
00:45:30,699 --> 00:45:34,909
Speaker 3: almost inspired me to seek different for myself.

752
00:45:35,729 --> 00:45:38,249
Speaker 1: So are you pursuing something that excites you?

753
00:45:39,129 --> 00:45:41,849
Speaker 3: I took a different job at a much smaller firm

754
00:45:42,569 --> 00:45:45,289
Speaker 3: and I've been there for like a year and a

755
00:45:45,329 --> 00:45:49,749
Speaker 3: half now. I am still like in the sort of

756
00:45:49,769 --> 00:45:53,209
Speaker 3: the finance world, but I'm working nine to five, which

757
00:45:53,269 --> 00:45:59,009
Speaker 3: is just amazing. My priority has been trying to fix myself,

758
00:45:59,689 --> 00:46:00,389
Speaker 3: if you will.

759
00:46:00,689 --> 00:46:02,689
Speaker 1: Can we say maybe trying to heal myself?

760
00:46:03,649 --> 00:46:03,849
Speaker 5: Yeah.

761
00:46:04,289 --> 00:46:09,269
Speaker 3: My priority has been to heal myself. I'm in therapy.

762
00:46:09,649 --> 00:46:11,889
Speaker 3: I'm reading books again, which is something I haven't done

763
00:46:11,929 --> 00:46:16,969
Speaker 3: in years. I have dabbled in yoga a little bit.

764
00:46:17,329 --> 00:46:20,749
Speaker 3: So I think my career is sort of on a

765
00:46:20,789 --> 00:46:25,059
Speaker 3: back burner right now because I'm trying to fix these

766
00:46:25,119 --> 00:46:26,599
Speaker 3: other areas of my life first.

767
00:46:27,819 --> 00:46:32,149
Speaker 1: And where in all of this is your interest in

768
00:46:32,209 --> 00:46:35,389
Speaker 1: psychology and your desire to become a therapist?

769
00:46:36,209 --> 00:46:38,089
Speaker 3: I mean, I still think I would love to be one.

770
00:46:38,669 --> 00:46:41,349
Speaker 3: I know I could do it if I really wanted to.

771
00:46:41,629 --> 00:46:44,529
Speaker 3: So sort of like I do in other areas of

772
00:46:44,549 --> 00:46:46,739
Speaker 3: my life, I kind of keep my life small or

773
00:46:46,779 --> 00:46:49,679
Speaker 3: I stay in this limbo to protect myself.

774
00:46:50,439 --> 00:46:52,739
Speaker 1: Does your fiance know about that desire?

775
00:46:53,319 --> 00:46:58,289
Speaker 3: He does. And he said, if you want to do it,

776
00:46:59,189 --> 00:47:03,979
Speaker 3: I'll support you. But I'm scared to shake things up

777
00:47:04,019 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 3: in my life because right now I feel a lot better,

778
00:47:08,899 --> 00:47:11,379
Speaker 3: but I'm scared to be too happy and I'm scared

779
00:47:11,419 --> 00:47:16,389
Speaker 3: to be too depressed. So I keep myself in a

780
00:47:16,429 --> 00:47:17,809
Speaker 3: limbo area.

781
00:47:18,369 --> 00:47:22,029
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you're afraid to feel too happy and

782
00:47:22,049 --> 00:47:25,589
Speaker 1: you're afraid to go spiraling down into depression. So you

783
00:47:25,609 --> 00:47:27,329
Speaker 1: want to stay in this kind of safe middle, but,

784
00:47:27,409 --> 00:47:29,849
Speaker 1: but the problem with that is that you don't really feel.

785
00:47:31,169 --> 00:47:31,369
Speaker 5: Yeah.

786
00:47:32,089 --> 00:47:36,309
Speaker 1: So I think there's something in between depression and just

787
00:47:37,429 --> 00:47:40,769
Speaker 1: not feeling great that day. But for you, it's like,

788
00:47:40,809 --> 00:47:44,229
Speaker 1: it's either going to be really great or really awful.

789
00:47:44,289 --> 00:47:47,029
Speaker 1: Kind of like it was with Jay, you know, Things

790
00:47:47,089 --> 00:47:49,509
Speaker 1: are great. He called me. He wants me. Or things

791
00:47:49,549 --> 00:47:53,199
Speaker 1: are terrible. He's ignoring me or he's treating me poorly.

792
00:47:55,299 --> 00:47:58,519
Speaker 1: And so your idea to solve that problem is to

793
00:47:58,559 --> 00:48:01,479
Speaker 1: just kind of stay in the safe middle. And what

794
00:48:01,499 --> 00:48:03,949
Speaker 1: I want to suggest is that if you mute one feeling,

795
00:48:03,989 --> 00:48:06,729
Speaker 1: you mute the others. And so you're so afraid of

796
00:48:06,769 --> 00:48:11,049
Speaker 1: feeling joy that you're muting some of the pain. And

797
00:48:11,069 --> 00:48:13,569
Speaker 1: you're so afraid of going into the pain that you're

798
00:48:13,589 --> 00:48:18,219
Speaker 1: muting the joy. And so you're not really kind of

799
00:48:18,539 --> 00:48:23,099
Speaker 1: alive in your emotional world. And you again have this

800
00:48:23,319 --> 00:48:25,739
Speaker 1: all or nothing idea that, well, I'd have to kind

801
00:48:25,779 --> 00:48:27,939
Speaker 1: of drop everything and do a psychology program when I

802
00:48:27,979 --> 00:48:30,899
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm committed, as opposed to maybe I'll

803
00:48:30,919 --> 00:48:34,179
Speaker 1: just take a class in psychology, just one, and see

804
00:48:34,219 --> 00:48:34,899
Speaker 1: if I like it.

805
00:48:35,999 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 5: Yeah.

806
00:48:36,959 --> 00:48:39,099
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you, Kayla, in the therapy that

807
00:48:39,119 --> 00:48:42,209
Speaker 2: you've had, has the topic of anxiety come up?

808
00:48:42,929 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 3: No, I was always very focused on the depression part

809
00:48:47,299 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 3: of myself, or I thought that was the most urgent

810
00:48:50,979 --> 00:48:53,679
Speaker 3: thing that needed to be addressed. We never really got

811
00:48:53,759 --> 00:48:55,229
Speaker 3: to the anxiety part.

812
00:48:56,009 --> 00:49:00,209
Speaker 2: I'm asking because I hear an undercurrent of anxiety in

813
00:49:00,369 --> 00:49:05,169
Speaker 2: almost everything that you're talking about. By definition, anxiety is

814
00:49:05,409 --> 00:49:10,929
Speaker 2: a fear of an unspecified, non-immediate, vague kind of dread

815
00:49:10,949 --> 00:49:14,539
Speaker 2: that something bad will happen. It's not an articulated what

816
00:49:14,579 --> 00:49:18,339
Speaker 2: that bad might be. It's not something that's looming this second,

817
00:49:18,559 --> 00:49:21,419
Speaker 2: but it might happen later or tomorrow or next week.

818
00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:27,299
Speaker 2: And that feeling of dread is the thing that people

819
00:49:27,339 --> 00:49:31,139
Speaker 2: interpret sometimes as fear. But one of the biggest responses

820
00:49:31,179 --> 00:49:35,459
Speaker 2: people have to anxiety is avoidance. They avoid the things

821
00:49:35,939 --> 00:49:39,389
Speaker 2: that make them anxious. And you have a pattern of avoidance.

822
00:49:40,229 --> 00:49:43,029
Speaker 2: in your life, the avoiding getting too close to people

823
00:49:43,089 --> 00:49:46,889
Speaker 2: by sharing truly what's going on, avoiding going after the

824
00:49:46,929 --> 00:49:50,929
Speaker 2: things you really, really want, avoiding experiencing the joy which

825
00:49:50,969 --> 00:49:53,969
Speaker 2: you know is there to be had in certain areas

826
00:49:54,049 --> 00:49:58,559
Speaker 2: because then what if I get blindsided and something goes wrong?

827
00:49:58,579 --> 00:50:02,999
Speaker 2: And there's no indication anything going wrong in your relationship

828
00:50:03,039 --> 00:50:06,019
Speaker 2: with your fiance. Does that resonate with you in any

829
00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:10,129
Speaker 2: way that there's this undercurrent of anxiety that's been going

830
00:50:10,209 --> 00:50:11,149
Speaker 2: on in your life as well.

831
00:50:11,769 --> 00:50:15,099
Speaker 3: Spot on. It's even funny. I'm trying to convince my

832
00:50:15,139 --> 00:50:17,699
Speaker 3: fiance that I don't want to have a bridal party

833
00:50:17,779 --> 00:50:21,159
Speaker 3: because I don't even want to offend people by not

834
00:50:21,199 --> 00:50:24,229
Speaker 3: choosing them as bridesmaids. My go-to is just to avoid

835
00:50:24,349 --> 00:50:28,029
Speaker 3: even having a bridal party. So it's interesting you bring

836
00:50:28,069 --> 00:50:32,179
Speaker 3: that up because now so many different ways in my life.

837
00:50:33,279 --> 00:50:37,179
Speaker 2: And it's important to label it anxiety, because if you

838
00:50:37,219 --> 00:50:40,699
Speaker 2: don't label it anxiety, then you start coming up with

839
00:50:40,759 --> 00:50:44,859
Speaker 2: rationales for it and justifying them. So what I'm saying

840
00:50:44,919 --> 00:50:48,179
Speaker 2: that I want you to know this idea of calling

841
00:50:48,229 --> 00:50:51,859
Speaker 2: things anxiety. when it fits that pattern because then you

842
00:50:51,919 --> 00:50:55,079
Speaker 2: at least know, no, that's not necessarily a real danger.

843
00:50:55,099 --> 00:50:56,779
Speaker 2: That's anxiety.

844
00:50:58,199 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 3: I think I've been focused on depression as the driver

845
00:51:01,339 --> 00:51:04,429
Speaker 3: that I neglected to see, you know, anxiety in the

846
00:51:04,459 --> 00:51:05,269
Speaker 3: passenger seat.

847
00:51:05,429 --> 00:51:08,429
Speaker 1: You did that with the kids too, that I'm afraid

848
00:51:08,469 --> 00:51:11,389
Speaker 1: to have kids because I might do things to them

849
00:51:11,409 --> 00:51:15,529
Speaker 1: that would repeat what my parents did with me. I'm

850
00:51:15,569 --> 00:51:20,749
Speaker 1: afraid to entertain the idea of psychology because I don't

851
00:51:20,769 --> 00:51:24,469
Speaker 1: know if I'm committed to it yet. There's a reason

852
00:51:24,529 --> 00:51:27,929
Speaker 1: for everything that you come up with. But underneath that,

853
00:51:28,089 --> 00:51:30,449
Speaker 1: what happens is, and you've used this word several times today,

854
00:51:30,549 --> 00:51:37,869
Speaker 1: self-sabotage in the name of self-protection when it doesn't actually

855
00:51:37,929 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: protect you, does not keep you safe. It keeps you

856
00:51:41,839 --> 00:51:45,079
Speaker 1: on high alert, as Guy was saying. That's the anxiety.

857
00:51:45,099 --> 00:51:49,389
Speaker 1: You're always on high alert. And you come by that honestly.

858
00:51:49,429 --> 00:51:53,189
Speaker 1: You've had experiences that might have taught you that you

859
00:51:53,229 --> 00:51:57,269
Speaker 1: need to be, except now you're in a different situation.

860
00:51:57,429 --> 00:52:00,089
Speaker 1: You don't need to be in high alert around those

861
00:52:00,189 --> 00:52:01,029
Speaker 1: things anymore.

862
00:52:02,789 --> 00:52:08,689
Speaker 2: And the last thing about anxiety is it's exhausting. Because

863
00:52:08,709 --> 00:52:11,409
Speaker 2: you have to do these mental gymnastics and these accountings

864
00:52:11,479 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 2: and these rationales and explaining and avoiding. It just keeps

865
00:52:14,439 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 2: you very busy.

866
00:52:15,979 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 1: And the other function of it Is that while you're

867
00:52:18,359 --> 00:52:20,679
Speaker 1: spinning in your head, you don't really have room to

868
00:52:20,739 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: connect with your fiance, maybe with your friends, maybe with

869
00:52:25,279 --> 00:52:30,269
Speaker 1: yourself in the ways that I think would create a

870
00:52:30,329 --> 00:52:32,509
Speaker 1: much richer experience for you.

871
00:52:34,189 --> 00:52:34,749
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.

872
00:52:39,989 --> 00:52:42,369
Speaker 2: So Kayla, we have some advice for you. Here's the

873
00:52:42,389 --> 00:52:46,609
Speaker 2: first part. As I said, I was concerned that you

874
00:52:46,749 --> 00:52:50,109
Speaker 2: are very self-critical and that you need to improve your

875
00:52:50,149 --> 00:52:54,469
Speaker 2: self-compassion skills and practice. What we'd like you to do

876
00:52:54,869 --> 00:52:57,129
Speaker 2: is we'd like you to make a list of the

877
00:52:57,129 --> 00:53:02,109
Speaker 2: 10 greatest self-critical hits that play out in your head.

878
00:53:02,429 --> 00:53:07,309
Speaker 2: Things like, I was a weirdo, or it's shameful that

879
00:53:07,349 --> 00:53:10,689
Speaker 2: I stayed in a relationship that was abusive, what's wrong

880
00:53:10,729 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 2: with me, whatever the narratives are, Write out the full

881
00:53:14,319 --> 00:53:19,949
Speaker 2: sentences of the really harsh statements that you make for yourself.

882
00:53:20,109 --> 00:53:22,949
Speaker 2: So make that list of 10. And then for each one,

883
00:53:23,569 --> 00:53:28,489
Speaker 2: present the self-compassionate option. The self-compassionate option for I was

884
00:53:28,529 --> 00:53:32,569
Speaker 2: a weirdo in school was I was depressed and I

885
00:53:32,889 --> 00:53:35,979
Speaker 2: felt very alone and I didn't have anyone to talk

886
00:53:36,019 --> 00:53:38,299
Speaker 2: to and I didn't connect with people and I was

887
00:53:38,359 --> 00:53:41,979
Speaker 2: really unhappy. Again, self-compassion is about how you would talk

888
00:53:42,019 --> 00:53:44,639
Speaker 2: to a friend. Or what somebody who really cared about you,

889
00:53:44,779 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 2: how they would frame that rather than the self-critical way.

890
00:53:48,379 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 2: So that's what we'd like you to do. 10 of

891
00:53:51,939 --> 00:53:56,739
Speaker 2: the most self-critical statements and then 10 self-compassionate takes on

892
00:53:56,779 --> 00:53:58,419
Speaker 2: those exact same statements.

893
00:53:59,659 --> 00:54:01,339
Speaker 1: And we think that will help with the next part

894
00:54:01,359 --> 00:54:03,859
Speaker 1: of the assignment, which is when you can have a

895
00:54:03,879 --> 00:54:07,979
Speaker 1: little more self-compassion for yourself, you might be able to

896
00:54:08,099 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 1: start to connect with other people in a deeper way.

897
00:54:12,959 --> 00:54:15,259
Speaker 1: And we want you to start with your fiance. We

898
00:54:15,299 --> 00:54:18,519
Speaker 1: would like you to talk to him about some of

899
00:54:18,539 --> 00:54:21,609
Speaker 1: the things that you haven't shared with him yet. For example,

900
00:54:21,889 --> 00:54:25,069
Speaker 1: when that thing happened where he said he was joking

901
00:54:25,129 --> 00:54:26,729
Speaker 1: about you left the dishes in the sink and you

902
00:54:27,109 --> 00:54:29,529
Speaker 1: immediately got up and said, oh, I'll take care of

903
00:54:29,549 --> 00:54:31,829
Speaker 1: that right away. You said he sort of understands where

904
00:54:31,869 --> 00:54:36,139
Speaker 1: that comes from, but not completely. We would like you

905
00:54:36,249 --> 00:54:40,339
Speaker 1: to tell him that you have been holding back a

906
00:54:40,359 --> 00:54:43,909
Speaker 1: little bit because you have a lot of shame around

907
00:54:43,949 --> 00:54:47,489
Speaker 1: some parts of your life that happened before you met him.

908
00:54:47,849 --> 00:54:52,909
Speaker 1: And that as you start this marriage together, you really

909
00:54:52,969 --> 00:55:00,659
Speaker 1: want to practice being more connected and open. And you

910
00:55:00,699 --> 00:55:03,359
Speaker 1: value so much how much he cares for you and

911
00:55:03,939 --> 00:55:06,369
Speaker 1: the trust that you have with him. And so you

912
00:55:06,409 --> 00:55:09,929
Speaker 1: want to share with him something that feels very delicate

913
00:55:09,969 --> 00:55:13,559
Speaker 1: to you. And then tell him a little bit about

914
00:55:13,859 --> 00:55:16,459
Speaker 1: your childhood and what that was like, what you shared

915
00:55:16,499 --> 00:55:18,939
Speaker 1: with us today. And maybe tell him a little bit

916
00:55:18,979 --> 00:55:22,769
Speaker 1: about how much shame you have around staying with this

917
00:55:22,829 --> 00:55:29,489
Speaker 1: person in your early 20s that still haunts you today

918
00:55:29,789 --> 00:55:32,289
Speaker 1: and that you're really working on that. But you just

919
00:55:32,329 --> 00:55:34,529
Speaker 1: want him to know that it's there because you want

920
00:55:34,549 --> 00:55:36,769
Speaker 1: to get closer with him. Share with us what it

921
00:55:36,909 --> 00:55:40,909
Speaker 1: felt like to share this with him. And then also

922
00:55:41,169 --> 00:55:44,169
Speaker 1: how he responded to you. And then the third thing

923
00:55:44,209 --> 00:55:48,189
Speaker 1: we'd like you to do is that we noticed again,

924
00:55:48,209 --> 00:55:51,609
Speaker 1: that you are a master of coming up with reasons

925
00:55:52,649 --> 00:55:55,269
Speaker 1: that you can't do or have the things that you want.

926
00:55:57,209 --> 00:56:00,329
Speaker 1: And you talked about how much you would have liked

927
00:56:00,349 --> 00:56:03,509
Speaker 1: to have pursued psychology or at least explored it if

928
00:56:03,589 --> 00:56:07,439
Speaker 1: finance was not the mandate in your household. And so

929
00:56:07,799 --> 00:56:10,459
Speaker 1: we want you to really have the space to explore that.

930
00:56:10,539 --> 00:56:12,129
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean you have to commit to a

931
00:56:12,169 --> 00:56:14,569
Speaker 1: graduate program when you have no idea if you really

932
00:56:14,609 --> 00:56:16,909
Speaker 1: want to do this yet. But what we'd like you

933
00:56:16,949 --> 00:56:19,049
Speaker 1: to do is to take a class. We want you

934
00:56:19,069 --> 00:56:23,039
Speaker 1: to sign up for a psychology class. There's probably one

935
00:56:23,439 --> 00:56:27,079
Speaker 1: at your local community college. There might be one online.

936
00:56:27,779 --> 00:56:29,409
Speaker 1: It might be more fun if you go in person.

937
00:56:29,429 --> 00:56:33,219
Speaker 1: But As you're doing your yoga and your therapy and

938
00:56:33,319 --> 00:56:36,059
Speaker 1: all of the other things you're doing to heal, we'd

939
00:56:36,099 --> 00:56:38,169
Speaker 1: like you to invest a little bit of time in

940
00:56:38,349 --> 00:56:41,489
Speaker 1: your joy. And what you can learn from this experience

941
00:56:41,549 --> 00:56:43,669
Speaker 1: is you might say, oh, you know what? I don't

942
00:56:43,709 --> 00:56:46,849
Speaker 1: actually like that after all, but it inspires me to

943
00:56:46,929 --> 00:56:49,909
Speaker 1: think about what I might enjoy more than finance. Maybe

944
00:56:49,949 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 1: it's not psychology. Or you might say, I really love this.

945
00:56:54,859 --> 00:56:56,939
Speaker 1: I might want to take a second class, or I

946
00:56:56,999 --> 00:56:59,779
Speaker 1: might want to get some brochures about graduate school, or

947
00:57:00,189 --> 00:57:03,449
Speaker 1: whatever it is. But either way, it will give you

948
00:57:03,509 --> 00:57:08,089
Speaker 1: some useful information that is coming from your desires, your wishes,

949
00:57:08,529 --> 00:57:12,569
Speaker 1: and not some external mandate that you've been living with

950
00:57:12,729 --> 00:57:14,789
Speaker 1: for a very long time. So you want to give

951
00:57:14,829 --> 00:57:17,109
Speaker 1: some space to your desires.

952
00:57:17,929 --> 00:57:20,929
Speaker 2: One last thing. We were thinking also about the anxiety

953
00:57:20,969 --> 00:57:25,189
Speaker 2: that you have, especially around experiencing joy. So we would

954
00:57:25,229 --> 00:57:31,219
Speaker 2: like this week you to catch if possible, five times

955
00:57:31,739 --> 00:57:34,159
Speaker 2: that you are thinking about things that could bring you

956
00:57:34,259 --> 00:57:38,159
Speaker 2: joy in a way that's full of dread and avoidance.

957
00:57:38,479 --> 00:57:40,859
Speaker 2: For example, how can I have a bridal shower? I'll

958
00:57:40,939 --> 00:57:44,039
Speaker 2: alienate one of my friends, so I can't do that.

959
00:57:44,699 --> 00:57:47,099
Speaker 2: You have that thought, all you need to do is go, okay,

960
00:57:47,139 --> 00:57:50,499
Speaker 2: that's an anxious thought. That's not a realistic concern. That's anxiety.

961
00:57:51,769 --> 00:57:54,649
Speaker 2: Or I can't have kids because I might end up

962
00:57:54,689 --> 00:57:56,589
Speaker 2: hurting them in some way as a parent, so let's

963
00:57:56,609 --> 00:58:00,729
Speaker 2: just avoid having kids altogether. Any one of those things

964
00:58:01,069 --> 00:58:04,349
Speaker 2: that comes up that are things that could bring you

965
00:58:04,429 --> 00:58:07,309
Speaker 2: joy or pleasure and the dread comes up about them,

966
00:58:07,849 --> 00:58:13,289
Speaker 2: just to label them anxiety. This is my anxiety around joy.

967
00:58:13,709 --> 00:58:15,229
Speaker 2: We want you to do in that way so that

968
00:58:15,429 --> 00:58:18,249
Speaker 2: when you have anxiety around joy and you take it

969
00:58:18,329 --> 00:58:20,909
Speaker 2: less seriously as a threat and more like, oh, here's

970
00:58:20,969 --> 00:58:24,489
Speaker 2: me doing this anxiety around joy thing. And so that's

971
00:58:24,509 --> 00:58:25,929
Speaker 2: why we want you to catch it as much as

972
00:58:25,999 --> 00:58:27,559
Speaker 2: possible this week.

973
00:58:28,599 --> 00:58:31,979
Speaker 3: It sounds really good. I didn't really realize to an

974
00:58:32,019 --> 00:58:35,889
Speaker 3: extent that it was almost controlling my life. So even

975
00:58:35,929 --> 00:58:38,669
Speaker 3: just recognizing that already just makes me feel a lot

976
00:58:38,689 --> 00:58:42,749
Speaker 3: better and a little hopeful. So I'm definitely excited to

977
00:58:43,249 --> 00:58:45,509
Speaker 3: do these tasks that you both mentioned.

978
00:58:45,889 --> 00:58:48,199
Speaker 1: Well, we're very excited for you to try these things

979
00:58:48,239 --> 00:58:50,539
Speaker 1: this week and we look forward to hearing how it goes.

980
00:58:51,279 --> 00:58:51,439
Speaker 5: Yeah.

981
00:58:51,499 --> 00:58:53,579
Speaker 3: Thank you, Lori. Thank you guys so much for having

982
00:58:53,599 --> 00:58:55,359
Speaker 3: me on the show. It's been a pleasure.

983
00:59:00,899 --> 00:59:04,599
Speaker 1: So I was really surprised when we started the session

984
00:59:04,659 --> 00:59:07,579
Speaker 1: today and the first thing Kayla told us was that

985
00:59:07,779 --> 00:59:11,019
Speaker 1: she not only was engaged but had been dating this

986
00:59:11,459 --> 00:59:16,939
Speaker 1: very seemingly emotionally available man for two years. And it

987
00:59:17,059 --> 00:59:20,209
Speaker 1: seemed so strange before we got to know her. But

988
00:59:20,509 --> 00:59:24,689
Speaker 1: once we started unpacking some of this, it actually made

989
00:59:24,809 --> 00:59:30,819
Speaker 1: sense that it is so terrifying for her to even

990
00:59:30,939 --> 00:59:34,939
Speaker 1: voice something good in her life, that she just pushes

991
00:59:34,979 --> 00:59:37,559
Speaker 1: it down. She couldn't tell us this good thing had

992
00:59:37,659 --> 00:59:41,299
Speaker 1: happened in her life. She couldn't write it down until

993
00:59:41,319 --> 00:59:43,159
Speaker 1: we actually were in session and she had to tell

994
00:59:43,199 --> 00:59:44,599
Speaker 1: us so that we could do the session with her.

995
00:59:45,139 --> 00:59:47,099
Speaker 2: Right. It was really difficult for her to add that

996
00:59:47,179 --> 00:59:49,259
Speaker 2: in her letter and say, oh, but things are good

997
00:59:49,299 --> 00:59:51,499
Speaker 2: in this area because she has so much anxiety and

998
00:59:51,539 --> 00:59:53,599
Speaker 2: dread about that going south at some point.

999
00:59:54,139 --> 00:59:56,419
Speaker 1: The going south part is the part that really trips

1000
00:59:56,459 --> 01:00:00,949
Speaker 1: her up, that I can't hold too tightly. onto the

1001
01:00:01,009 --> 01:00:04,389
Speaker 1: things that bring me joy because something will go wrong.

1002
01:00:05,149 --> 01:00:07,969
Speaker 1: I can't think about having kids because I might repeat

1003
01:00:08,289 --> 01:00:11,829
Speaker 1: the patterns of my parents. I can't think about my

1004
01:00:11,869 --> 01:00:14,029
Speaker 1: bridal shower even though that might be really fun because

1005
01:00:14,069 --> 01:00:16,709
Speaker 1: I might offend someone. I can't think about this career

1006
01:00:16,749 --> 01:00:19,209
Speaker 1: that I might want to have because I'm supposed to

1007
01:00:19,249 --> 01:00:21,969
Speaker 1: do finance. And it's interesting that when you brought up anxiety,

1008
01:00:22,009 --> 01:00:24,689
Speaker 1: that seemed to really resonate with her, that she hadn't

1009
01:00:24,729 --> 01:00:27,429
Speaker 1: thought about it that way. And that's so common, I think,

1010
01:00:27,459 --> 01:00:30,679
Speaker 1: for anybody listening, this idea that when we're spinning around

1011
01:00:30,729 --> 01:00:34,039
Speaker 1: something or we're perseverating on something and we focus on

1012
01:00:34,119 --> 01:00:39,799
Speaker 1: something almost obsessively, that there's something else. that we are

1013
01:00:40,259 --> 01:00:42,879
Speaker 1: afraid of. And when we get to that fear, it

1014
01:00:42,919 --> 01:00:46,619
Speaker 1: becomes much less scary. If we can just name the fear,

1015
01:00:47,039 --> 01:00:48,359
Speaker 1: the anxiety goes down.

1016
01:00:48,879 --> 01:00:51,099
Speaker 2: I love, by the way, her phrasing of, I thought

1017
01:00:51,219 --> 01:00:54,339
Speaker 2: depression was driving this. I didn't realize anxiety was in

1018
01:00:54,379 --> 01:00:57,059
Speaker 2: the passenger seat. As you know, Laurie, those two go

1019
01:00:57,099 --> 01:00:58,879
Speaker 2: on road trips together all the time.

1020
01:00:59,279 --> 01:01:00,419
Speaker 1: They're fast friends.

1021
01:01:00,559 --> 01:01:00,799
Speaker 5: Yes.

1022
01:01:01,199 --> 01:01:02,579
Speaker 1: So we gave her a bunch of things to think

1023
01:01:02,639 --> 01:01:04,659
Speaker 1: about this week and to do this week. And I

1024
01:01:04,729 --> 01:01:07,009
Speaker 1: am really looking forward to hearing how that all goes

1025
01:01:07,049 --> 01:01:07,329
Speaker 1: for her.

1026
01:01:07,869 --> 01:01:16,119
Speaker 2: As am I. You're listening to Dear Therapists. We'll be

1027
01:01:16,159 --> 01:01:31,059
Speaker 2: back after a short break. So, Lori, we heard back

1028
01:01:31,099 --> 01:01:32,919
Speaker 2: from Kayla. Let's hear how she did this week.

1029
01:01:33,709 --> 01:01:34,289
Speaker 5: Hey, Lori.

1030
01:01:34,369 --> 01:01:34,849
Speaker 3: Hey, Guy.

1031
01:01:34,869 --> 01:01:37,749
Speaker 5: It's Kayla. I'm here to talk about the task that

1032
01:01:37,809 --> 01:01:41,209
Speaker 5: you have both given me to complete over the past week.

1033
01:01:41,489 --> 01:01:44,199
Speaker 5: First one, Guy. We wanted to make a list of

1034
01:01:44,199 --> 01:01:51,329
Speaker 5: 10 self-critical hits with the self-compassion component. And I wanted

1035
01:01:51,369 --> 01:01:54,709
Speaker 5: to share one that I had written out. So the

1036
01:01:54,729 --> 01:01:58,229
Speaker 5: self-critical hit is, I should have never gotten into a

1037
01:01:58,289 --> 01:02:03,599
Speaker 5: relationship with Jay. And the self-compassion component that I wrote

1038
01:02:03,699 --> 01:02:06,679
Speaker 5: out was, I have always felt like the outcast in society.

1039
01:02:07,389 --> 01:02:09,759
Speaker 5: Being with a popular guy like Jay gave me more

1040
01:02:09,819 --> 01:02:12,879
Speaker 5: confidence and made me believe I was worthy of love,

1041
01:02:13,399 --> 01:02:16,619
Speaker 5: even if it didn't work out. I think writing that out,

1042
01:02:17,339 --> 01:02:19,699
Speaker 5: I try to imagine myself like what my friend would

1043
01:02:19,719 --> 01:02:21,879
Speaker 5: say to me, but I really try to believe that

1044
01:02:21,899 --> 01:02:22,859
Speaker 5: it was something I.

1045
01:02:22,869 --> 01:02:23,679
Speaker 3: Would say to myself.

1046
01:02:24,869 --> 01:02:29,449
Speaker 5: So I definitely think this exercise really, really challenged me

1047
01:02:29,509 --> 01:02:34,489
Speaker 5: and enjoyed, you know, sort of writing out the self-compassion components.

1048
01:02:34,509 --> 01:02:37,009
Speaker 5: You know, the second thing you would have requested I

1049
01:02:37,049 --> 01:02:41,389
Speaker 5: was to connect with my fiance more. And I talked

1050
01:02:41,409 --> 01:02:45,359
Speaker 5: to him about everything, including what it was like in

1051
01:02:45,399 --> 01:02:49,859
Speaker 5: elementary school for me and sort of more about what

1052
01:02:49,919 --> 01:02:54,539
Speaker 5: happened in the relationship with Jay. And to my surprise,

1053
01:02:54,639 --> 01:02:57,889
Speaker 5: but probably not to Lori or Guy's surprise, his response

1054
01:02:57,909 --> 01:02:59,489
Speaker 5: was sort of like, you know, I wish you had

1055
01:02:59,529 --> 01:03:02,709
Speaker 5: told me sooner. We were able to have a conversation

1056
01:03:02,769 --> 01:03:07,219
Speaker 5: about it. And I feel pretty good. after sharing with him.

1057
01:03:07,419 --> 01:03:10,639
Speaker 5: So I think it's something I'm going to continue going forward.

1058
01:03:12,419 --> 01:03:15,139
Speaker 5: The third thing, Lori, I know you have requested that

1059
01:03:15,159 --> 01:03:19,629
Speaker 5: I sign up for a psychology class. Unfortunately, I have

1060
01:03:19,649 --> 01:03:25,809
Speaker 5: not done that yet. I just, not something I can

1061
01:03:25,849 --> 01:03:30,369
Speaker 5: mentally get myself to do right now, but I feel

1062
01:03:30,409 --> 01:03:32,779
Speaker 5: hopeful that it is something I will do one day.

1063
01:03:34,429 --> 01:03:36,409
Speaker 5: So I just really want to thank you both for

1064
01:03:37,049 --> 01:03:40,409
Speaker 5: taking the time to speak with me, really put a

1065
01:03:40,449 --> 01:03:42,809
Speaker 5: lot of things into perspective and made me think.

1066
01:03:42,669 --> 01:03:45,349
Speaker 3: About a lot of different things. So I hope you

1067
01:03:45,389 --> 01:03:46,109
Speaker 3: both take care.

1068
01:03:50,039 --> 01:03:52,459
Speaker 1: So we give people a lot to do every week

1069
01:03:52,679 --> 01:03:56,799
Speaker 1: because we only have one session with them. And with

1070
01:03:56,839 --> 01:03:59,439
Speaker 1: the first two tasks that we gave Kayla, it sounds

1071
01:03:59,459 --> 01:04:02,379
Speaker 1: like she did beautifully. She got out of her shame

1072
01:04:02,539 --> 01:04:05,489
Speaker 1: and went into a place of compassion with some of

1073
01:04:05,529 --> 01:04:08,889
Speaker 1: the narratives that she'd been carrying around. And she was

1074
01:04:09,069 --> 01:04:14,849
Speaker 1: able to talk to her fiancé and start to connect

1075
01:04:14,889 --> 01:04:18,119
Speaker 1: with him in a different way without hiding some of

1076
01:04:18,159 --> 01:04:22,759
Speaker 1: these parts of her past that felt so shameful to her.

1077
01:04:23,399 --> 01:04:26,119
Speaker 1: And I think that's all very positive. But when it

1078
01:04:26,159 --> 01:04:28,579
Speaker 1: came to the other two tasks around signing up for

1079
01:04:28,599 --> 01:04:33,499
Speaker 1: the psychology class and identifying her anxiety around joy She

1080
01:04:33,539 --> 01:04:35,159
Speaker 1: seems to have struggled with those two.

1081
01:04:35,499 --> 01:04:38,709
Speaker 2: And I want our listeners to understand that when we

1082
01:04:38,729 --> 01:04:45,149
Speaker 2: give these multi-component tasks, it's for a reason, because things

1083
01:04:45,209 --> 01:04:49,129
Speaker 2: are always connected. And so the idea of the psychology

1084
01:04:49,169 --> 01:04:53,369
Speaker 2: class was not, oh, try psychology, was a symbolic way

1085
01:04:53,689 --> 01:04:56,729
Speaker 2: to step out of her parents' expectations and do the

1086
01:04:56,789 --> 01:05:00,699
Speaker 2: thing that she had trouble advocating for herself when she

1087
01:05:00,739 --> 01:05:05,929
Speaker 2: was younger. And the task around the anxiety around joy

1088
01:05:06,669 --> 01:05:10,229
Speaker 2: was an important task also to create a separation between

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01:05:10,349 --> 01:05:16,089
Speaker 2: the previous history that she had of really struggling with anxiety,

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01:05:16,129 --> 01:05:19,669
Speaker 2: but thinking that actually her desires and her wishes and

1091
01:05:19,709 --> 01:05:22,609
Speaker 2: her wants were problematic, like having children as opposed to

1092
01:05:22,649 --> 01:05:26,169
Speaker 2: realizing that that was about anxiety. And they're all connected.

1093
01:05:26,669 --> 01:05:30,329
Speaker 2: So that first part of leaning into the engagement more

1094
01:05:30,609 --> 01:05:35,529
Speaker 2: and being more self-compassionate is something she did well. But

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01:05:35,569 --> 01:05:38,349
Speaker 2: I hope Kayla, if you're listening to this, I would

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01:05:38,409 --> 01:05:42,399
Speaker 2: urge you to pick up those other two tasks and

1097
01:05:42,479 --> 01:05:46,319
Speaker 2: do them if you can, because they together with the

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01:05:46,379 --> 01:05:48,559
Speaker 2: first two, which we hope you'll keep working on, as

1099
01:05:48,579 --> 01:05:54,079
Speaker 2: you said, together will help you really change the old

1100
01:05:54,299 --> 01:05:57,619
Speaker 2: patterns that tend to be dominant in our lives when

1101
01:05:57,639 --> 01:05:59,379
Speaker 2: we've had them for many years. And we need a

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01:05:59,459 --> 01:06:03,709
Speaker 2: multi-pronged approach to really break out of them. And I

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01:06:03,769 --> 01:06:06,169
Speaker 2: hope if you can do all of those things, it

1104
01:06:06,189 --> 01:06:09,069
Speaker 2: would really help you move forward in a really substantial way.

1105
01:06:13,149 --> 01:06:16,389
Speaker 2: Next week, we're checking in with Doug, who struggled with

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01:06:16,449 --> 01:06:20,319
Speaker 2: a fear of intimacy after an emotionally scarring relationship. to

1107
01:06:20,359 --> 01:06:22,359
Speaker 2: hear how he's doing one year later.

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01:06:22,759 --> 01:06:25,839
Speaker 4: It's really hard for me to open up to him

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01:06:26,419 --> 01:06:28,539
Speaker 4: because every time in the past that I've opened up

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01:06:28,599 --> 01:06:31,399
Speaker 4: about my feelings, it's either been met with rejection or

1111
01:06:31,419 --> 01:06:33,719
Speaker 4: met with OCD. So it's really hard for me to

1112
01:06:33,819 --> 01:06:36,979
Speaker 4: trust that I can have a safe person to open

1113
01:06:37,039 --> 01:06:37,319
Speaker 4: up to.

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01:06:37,939 --> 01:06:41,009
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

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01:06:41,069 --> 01:06:43,929
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes. And please

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01:06:43,969 --> 01:06:46,649
Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapist by telling your friends about it

1117
01:06:46,929 --> 01:06:50,179
Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

1118
01:06:50,209 --> 01:06:51,379
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

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01:06:52,079 --> 01:06:54,179
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

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01:06:54,639 --> 01:07:01,429
Speaker 2: email us at laurieandguy at iheartmedia.com. Our executive producer is

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01:07:01,479 --> 01:07:05,989
Speaker 2: Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional

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01:07:06,069 --> 01:07:10,649
Speaker 2: editing support by Helena Rosen, John Washington, and Zachary Fisher.

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01:07:11,159 --> 01:07:15,739
Speaker 2: Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gutierrez, and Silver Lifton.

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01:07:16,359 --> 01:07:19,929
Speaker 2: And special thanks to our podcast fairy godmother, Katie Couric.

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01:07:20,369 --> 01:07:22,449
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at our next session.

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Speaker 2: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.