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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

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Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a young woman who's now with a healthy

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Speaker 1: partner still carries scars from an abusive relationship she had

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Speaker 1: years ago.

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Speaker 3: Like I'm just ashamed of the whole situation.

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Speaker 4: I don't want to talk about how I had an

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Speaker 4: abusive partner for three years of my life. I want

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Speaker 4: to forget about it on the outside, but on the inside,

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Speaker 4: I can't forget about it.

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Speaker 2: First, a quick note, Deo Therapists is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not

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Speaker 2: a subtitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 2: By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeart

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Speaker 2: Media use it in part or in full, and we

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Speaker 2: may edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions

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Speaker 2: you'll hear, all names have been changed for the privacy

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Speaker 2: of our guests.

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Speaker 1: Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So what do we have in

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Speaker 1: our mailbox today?

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Speaker 2: Today we have a letter from a woman who is

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Speaker 2: still processing the fallout of a relationship she had several

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Speaker 2: years ago. And here it is Deotherapists. It has been

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Speaker 2: over five years since I ended the toxic and emotionally

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Speaker 2: abusive relationship which I was in for approximately three and

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Speaker 2: a half years. The reason I'm writing to you both

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Speaker 2: is because, at twenty seven years old, I still currently

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Speaker 2: experience intrusive thoughts and tend to relive parts of this

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Speaker 2: relationship over and over again in my head. There seems

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Speaker 2: to be no escape from this man, even after all

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Speaker 2: of these years. The effects of this relationship affect me

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Speaker 2: in multiple ways. First, I have such anger towards myself

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Speaker 2: for participating in this relationship for as long as I did.

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Speaker 2: I tried to leave multiple times, but my ex had

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Speaker 2: such power over me that he always found a way

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Speaker 2: to suck me back in. My ex boyfriend is a

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Speaker 2: painful and loud reminder that this is what happens when

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Speaker 2: you don't love yourself. Through work in therapy, I learned

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Speaker 2: to develop self compassion towards myself for how I ended

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Speaker 2: up in this relationship and why I stayed for as

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Speaker 2: long as I did. But I still grieve for this

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Speaker 2: younger version of myself. Secondly, after this relationship, I continued

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Speaker 2: to pursue emotionally unavailable men and to no surprise, got

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Speaker 2: my heart broken more than once. It's as if I

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Speaker 2: learned nothing from my ex. And Lastly, in the years

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Speaker 2: after the relationship ended, I stayed in a toxic job

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Speaker 2: that broke my spirits and got me to gain thirty pounds.

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Speaker 2: I had zero boundaries. I would spread myself thin to

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Speaker 2: accommodate others. Please help me make peace with this situation.

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Speaker 2: I'm too embarrassed to speak with friends and family about

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Speaker 2: how I'm feeling. Thank you, Kayla.

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Speaker 1: What struck me most about Kayla's letter is that she

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Speaker 1: said that she's twenty seven years old, and doing the math,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like she was about nineteen when she got

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Speaker 1: into that relationship that still haunts her. And it's interesting

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Speaker 1: because I think when we're younger. Often we don't know

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Speaker 1: a lot about boundaries. But she still hasn't forgiven herself

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Speaker 1: for this relationship that started when she was basically a teenager.

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Speaker 1: And I'll be curious to hear why it's been so

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Speaker 1: hard for her to let go of that and to

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Speaker 1: have the self compassion that she is trying to work on.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like she's done a lot of work on her SELFIEA,

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Speaker 2: she's saying that nothing really has changed enough, So that's

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Speaker 2: something we have to find out. She does seem to

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Speaker 2: have a lot of insight, yet not a lot of

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Speaker 2: changes happening. Let's go find out where she's stuck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do that. You're listening to Dear Therapists for

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Speaker 1: my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm dy Wench and this is Deatherapist.

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Speaker 3: Hi Kayla, Hi Laurie, Hey guy, thank you so much

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Speaker 3: for having me on the show.

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Speaker 2: You are very very welcome.

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Speaker 1: We read your letter and we wanted to hear a

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Speaker 1: little bit first about what's been going on with your

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Speaker 1: dating life more recently.

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Speaker 4: So this might come as a bit of a shock

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Speaker 4: seeing I wrote the letter. However, I'm actually engaged to

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Speaker 4: a wonderful man. And the reason why I say you

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Speaker 4: might be shocked is because a letter. You know, I

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Speaker 4: feel like when I wrote it, it seems like I have

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Speaker 4: a lot of unresolved trauma from the pest. But my

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Speaker 4: fiance is a wonderful man. It's just the past that

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Speaker 4: I can't seem to reconcile with.

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Speaker 1: So I think you wrote to us fairly recently. Tell

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Speaker 1: us how long ago you met this man and how

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Speaker 1: long you've been engaged.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so I recently got engaged about two months ago,

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Speaker 4: and we've been dating for about two years.

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Speaker 1: So when you wrote to us and you were saying

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Speaker 1: that you had this pattern of still choosing unavailable men,

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Speaker 1: you were engaged or you were with this man when

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Speaker 1: you wrote to.

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Speaker 3: Us, yes, not engaged.

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Speaker 1: You were saying you have this problem going after unavailable men,

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Speaker 1: but you'd been in a relatively long relationship with an

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Speaker 1: available man.

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Speaker 4: Yes, And it was very weird at first. I wasn't

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Speaker 4: even sure I wanted to be with someone like him.

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Speaker 4: Maybe he was too available.

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Speaker 1: What I mean is it sounded from the letter like

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Speaker 1: you had been through this pattern for the last five

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Speaker 1: years of continually dating unavailable men. When you were writing

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Speaker 1: us that letter, Why do you think you left out

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Speaker 1: the fact that you have and to be in a

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Speaker 1: relationship with an available man.

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Speaker 4: I think I still feel a lot of shame for

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Speaker 4: a lot of my past decisions, and I do feel

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Speaker 4: like a fraud sometimes in my current relationship. So I think,

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Speaker 4: while yes, I am in a happy relationship, I do

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Speaker 4: also feel like maybe not deserving of the relationship.

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Speaker 2: Does the fact that you left out that detail reflect

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Speaker 2: also how you think about yourself? In other words, it's

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Speaker 2: been five years, you've done all this work in therapy,

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Speaker 2: you're actually engaged to a good, emotionally available man at

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Speaker 2: the moment, do you still think of yourself as the

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Speaker 2: woman who was in the toxic relationship despite the fact

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Speaker 2: that you've been in a good relationship for two years.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's pretty spot on about how I

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Speaker 4: view myself.

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Speaker 2: So reality has moved on changed, but your self perception

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Speaker 2: hasn't updated with it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us how the feelings that you're carrying

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Speaker 1: around from the earlier relationship play out in the current relationship.

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Speaker 4: Yes, So early on in the relationship, it was very

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Speaker 4: weird to me to have a man that was texting

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Speaker 4: me every day wanting to spend time with me. So

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Speaker 4: those were things that freaked me out in the beginning.

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Speaker 4: But I will say like, as we would start dating,

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Speaker 4: I noticed that sometimes when you know, he would make

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Speaker 4: like a small comment like oh I miss you or

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Speaker 4: I haven't seen you in a long time. I would

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Speaker 4: have panic attacks and I would start apologizing profusely, like

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Speaker 4: I'm so sorry, I feel like such a horrible girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: That's how you interpreted him saying I miss you.

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Speaker 4: I saw it as something like you never make time

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Speaker 4: for me. That's how I viewed it because that's how

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Speaker 4: it was with my ex boyfriend Jay.

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Speaker 3: But with my current fiance it's very different.

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Speaker 4: Another example, so we lived together recently and I tend

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Speaker 4: to keep dishes in the sink sometimes, and last week

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Speaker 4: he was making a joke, oh look Kayla leaving her

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Speaker 4: dishes in the sink again, and I just jerked up

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Speaker 4: from the couch and I was like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 4: I'll clean this up right away. I'm so sorry. And

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Speaker 4: he even said like, relax, I was just busting your chops.

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Speaker 4: So I think I was so scared of my ex

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Speaker 4: boyfriend Jay that that fear still controls me in my

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Speaker 4: current relationship.

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Speaker 2: Does he make the connection in his own head between, oh,

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Speaker 2: she's reacting strongly because of her ex.

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Speaker 4: We've had a little bit of discussions of my previous

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Speaker 4: relationship experience a lot of shame. So I maybe didn't

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Speaker 4: tell him a lot of things because I didn't want

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Speaker 4: him to look at me differently. I didn't want him

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Speaker 4: to say, like, why would Kayla choose a man like that?

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Speaker 4: What's wrong with her? Even though I don't believe deep

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Speaker 4: down that's what he would think.

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Speaker 5: I just.

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Speaker 4: Choose just not to say certain things that have happened.

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Speaker 4: But he definitely knows that I was in a very

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Speaker 4: toxic relationship. I didn't say to him that it was abusive.

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Speaker 4: I just said it was toxic.

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Speaker 1: I think what's interesting is that you thought he might say,

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with her? That she was in that relationship.

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Speaker 1: But I think that's what you say to yourself, And

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Speaker 1: that's so common with people who have been in abusive relationships.

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Speaker 1: They think something is wrong with them. And so I'd

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Speaker 1: be curious if you could tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about what actually went on in that relationship.

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Speaker 4: So the relationship spanned about three years. It was sort

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Speaker 4: of in like two phases, if you will. The first

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Speaker 4: year and a half was us trying to figure out

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Speaker 4: what we were. The second year and a half was

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Speaker 4: when we were actually in a relationship.

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Speaker 3: We had met in college.

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Speaker 4: We would flirt and when we would see each other parties,

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Speaker 4: we would sometimes kiss when we saw each other at

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Speaker 4: the bar, but nothing ever progressed from there. And right

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Speaker 4: before he was about to graduate, I was a few

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Speaker 4: years younger than him, he told me that he cared

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Speaker 4: about me, and I realized that I had feelings for

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Speaker 4: him as well. I realized right after he said those

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Speaker 4: words that that's all they were.

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Speaker 3: They were just words.

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Speaker 4: There was no actions to back him up, because that

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Speaker 4: weekend after he told me he cared about me, and

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Speaker 4: went to the bar and he was making out with

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Speaker 4: another girl right in front of me. But we continue

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Speaker 4: to play this game of him pretending he didn't want me,

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Speaker 4: pretending I didn't care, when I really did. So we

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Speaker 4: hung out that entire summer. He didn't want to do

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Speaker 4: long distance when I was going back to school, and

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Speaker 4: I would say that year that I went back to

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Speaker 4: school without him, I was barely functioning. I was completely heartbroken.

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Speaker 4: My grades were falling. I couldn't even get out of bed.

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Speaker 4: My drinking was sort of out of control. I think

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Speaker 4: I was coping with the loss of this man by

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Speaker 4: partying too hard. And then when I came back home

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Speaker 4: for the summer, he reached out again and was like,

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Speaker 4: let's get back together.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't even fight him.

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Speaker 4: I was just like, yeah, let's get back together, even

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Speaker 4: though he had completely broken my heart.

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Speaker 2: So that first section you weren't actually together. Was there

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Speaker 2: a period that you were actually together?

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Speaker 4: This summer after he had graduated, and this is right

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Speaker 4: before my junior year of college. We were hanging out

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Speaker 4: all the time and I fell in love with him,

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Speaker 4: which now I see it wasn't love. I almost describe

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Speaker 4: him like he was a drug. When he wouldn't text me,

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Speaker 4: I physically felt sick. And then when he would text me,

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Speaker 4: I felt like I was on top of the world.

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Speaker 4: But every time I hung out with him, I always

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Speaker 4: felt this sense of emptiness and loneliness, and I couldn't

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Speaker 4: really pinpoint why I felt that way.

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Speaker 1: You said you felt empty after you hung out with him,

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Speaker 1: and at the same time you said you fell in

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Speaker 1: love with him. What did it mean to be in

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Speaker 1: love with him? What did you love about him?

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Speaker 4: He was very popular at my college, but he was

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Speaker 4: known for being a player. He was one of, in

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Speaker 4: my opinion, one of the most attractive men at the school,

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Speaker 4: and he always had girls like pining over him. So

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Speaker 4: I think when got to the point where he told

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Speaker 4: me he cared about me, I almost felt like I

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Speaker 4: won something. I won, like this prize of this of

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Speaker 4: like the most attractive, most popular man of college.

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Speaker 2: So I was saying it was like winning a prize,

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Speaker 2: because for you to be with this popular, handsome guy

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Speaker 2: kind of elevated your status in other people's eyes, but

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Speaker 2: probably mostly in your own. Were you aware that you

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Speaker 2: were kind of tethering your self esteem a little bit

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Speaker 2: to him?

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Speaker 4: Definitely, because there were times that summer that I had

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Speaker 4: tried to end things with him because I really felt

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Speaker 4: like I wasn't getting what I deserved or needed. But

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Speaker 4: then he would always come back and say, no, I'll

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Speaker 4: fight for you, and I believe those words, but those

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Speaker 4: words were always empty with no actions to back them up.

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Speaker 4: It kept going on like that for quite a while.

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Speaker 2: What internal dialogue did you have about trying to get

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Speaker 2: yourself to not capitulate when he came and said, no,

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Speaker 2: I'll fight for you. You're the one. And was there

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Speaker 2: an internal fight about like no, I shouldn't or was

256
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Speaker 2: it just like, okay, good, let's let's do it.

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Speaker 3: I think part of me wanted him to fight for me.

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Speaker 4: So when I got those words from him again, I

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Speaker 4: felt that high, like I took a drug. So I

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Speaker 4: I really didn't push back when he would you fight

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Speaker 4: for me, And even like from the point where I

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Speaker 4: actually broke up with him, you know, years later, he

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Speaker 4: did try to fight for me again, and that time

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Speaker 4: I was actually done. But at the time, like I

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Speaker 4: knew it was bad, but I almost couldn't help myself,

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Speaker 4: and I feel a lot of shame around that currently.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure if you're aware, but the science of

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Speaker 2: heartbreak is quite clear that what happens in our brain

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Speaker 2: when we're heartbroken is very similar to what happens in

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Speaker 2: our brain when opioid addicts are withdrawing from heroin. In

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Speaker 2: other words, you said drug, and our brain absolutely regards

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Speaker 2: it as a drug, and like heroin in the sense

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Speaker 2: that you feel desperate to just get a fix, to

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Speaker 2: just get him back, to just be in touch, and

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Speaker 2: you feel pointless without him, the drug is the answer

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Speaker 2: to everything. Nothing else matters when you're highly, highly addicted,

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Speaker 2: and everything gets devastated when you are withdrawing from strong opioids.

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Speaker 2: And that's exactly what you're describing. There's a big part

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Speaker 2: of you that does feel a lot of shame. And

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Speaker 2: I'm saying that because this is one of the most

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Speaker 2: remarkable findings about this brain in science and heartbreak, that

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Speaker 2: we are driven to do things like heroin addicts are

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Speaker 2: when they're withdrawing. When heroin addicts are with drawing, that

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Speaker 2: makes sense. We don't know that with heartbreak, and so

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Speaker 2: it didn't make sense to you. It's the same dynamic,

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Speaker 2: and that's why it was so hard to resist.

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Speaker 3: That's really good to know.

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Speaker 4: I suspected it was like a drug, but I didn't

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Speaker 4: know there was actually science to back that up.

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Speaker 1: How did you eventually decide that you were going to

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Speaker 1: go to rehub let's say, by breaking up with him?

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Speaker 4: So I remember this day so very clearly. He refused

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Speaker 4: to come to anything that pertained to like family or

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Speaker 4: friends events, and when he was around my parents, he

295
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,040
Speaker 4: was just you could just tell he was very uncomfortable.

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Speaker 4: So he picked a fight with me a few days

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Speaker 4: before Christmas, and I knew he did that because he

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Speaker 4: didn't want to come to Christmas.

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Speaker 3: He knew I was going to beg him.

300
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Speaker 4: So at Christmas, when everyone was asking me, like, oh, hey,

301
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Speaker 4: where's Jay, I was like, we broke up and at

302
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,320
Speaker 4: that point we actually hadn't, but I was telling everyone

303
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,679
Speaker 4: that because I knew my decision was made. That was

304
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Speaker 4: sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back.

305
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Speaker 4: And the next day I went over to his house

306
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Speaker 4: and I broke up with him. And for all the

307
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Speaker 4: times he watched me cry, he was the one finally crying.

308
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Speaker 4: And I wasn't actively happy to see him cry, but

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Speaker 4: I sort of had the mindset like, you know, crime,

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Speaker 4: your river, after what you had put me through. He

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Speaker 4: was just like watching him on his hands and knees,

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Speaker 4: begging for forgiveness, and I just said to him, I

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Speaker 4: don't want to be with you anymore. I felt so

314
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Speaker 4: empowered in that moment, and I walked away and he

315
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Speaker 4: still was following me to my car, trying to win

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Speaker 4: me back, and I said, get out of my face.

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Speaker 3: So it definitely didn't.

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Speaker 4: And well, but I was just proud that for once

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Speaker 4: I really stood off for myself.

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Speaker 1: What was it about that straw that broke the camel's back?

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Speaker 1: Because it sounds like he had done things like that

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Speaker 1: throughout your time together, sending these very mixed messages of

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Speaker 1: come close, no go away, come close, go away, and

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Speaker 1: then there's this one incident that sounds not that different

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Speaker 1: from the other things that went on. What was it

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Speaker 1: about that one?

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Speaker 4: I think part of me was scared of him. Again,

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Speaker 4: he was never physical with me, but I was scared

329
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Speaker 4: of him in the sense that, you know, he was

330
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Speaker 4: always yelling at me. So I definitely think at that

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Speaker 4: point I was walking on eggshells around him, was afraid

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Speaker 4: of him. So I think I didn't know I wanted

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Speaker 4: to break up with him. I just didn't know how

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Speaker 4: because I think I still was afraid of him.

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Speaker 1: The relationship. Were you ever able to say to him, Hey,

336
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,439
Speaker 1: I didn't like when you did that.

337
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,400
Speaker 4: I definitely did at first when we were like officially dating. Now,

338
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,760
Speaker 4: I wouldn't stand up for myself. Every time he came

339
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,920
Speaker 4: to visit me at school. We always got into a fight.

340
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,199
Speaker 4: He was always mad about something, and I always just

341
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,639
Speaker 4: apologized to him and begged for his forgiveness. And there

342
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,239
Speaker 4: was actually a specific incident that happened where one of

343
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Speaker 4: my friends was also visiting me that weekend with him.

344
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Speaker 4: I think it was my birthday weekend, and I just

345
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 4: remember fighting between the two of us and it was

346
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 4: just awful. And the next day my friend had like

347
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 4: pulled me aside and she said, you know, Kayla, I'm

348
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,400
Speaker 4: really worried, Like he just started yelling at you out

349
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 4: of nowhere. She said, I was with you the whole night.

350
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,719
Speaker 4: You did absolutely nothing wrong, and she wasn't like, oh,

351
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 4: break up with him, but she expressed a lot of

352
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,399
Speaker 4: concern about that kind of behavior. So I think after

353
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,439
Speaker 4: that sort of the dynamics switched where I started to

354
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 4: challenge him because I think it felt good to have

355
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,360
Speaker 4: a friend tell me I wasn't crazy, because I legitimately

356
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,920
Speaker 4: thought I was the problem in the relationship.

357
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Speaker 2: You know, you mentioned that you felt a lot of

358
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,919
Speaker 2: and still feel a lot of shame about the relationship

359
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,640
Speaker 2: and that you didn't really talk to friends much about it.

360
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,000
Speaker 2: But after that experience, when a friend actually just sees

361
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 2: something and a good friend she is to come up

362
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 2: to you and say I'm worried without going too much

363
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 2: further than I'm worried. I think she handled it really well.

364
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 2: Why did that not make you feel more comfortable, even

365
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,959
Speaker 2: with this one friend being more open about what was

366
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 2: going on, or sharing some of the dilemmas or the

367
00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 2: painful moments. Why did you still that to yourself when

368
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 2: he's one friend who sees there's something going on and

369
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 2: is clearly supportive.

370
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 4: I think I didn't share because I knew what everyone

371
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 4: was going to say. I think I knew people were

372
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 4: going to tell me to leave him, and I don't

373
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Speaker 4: think I was ready at that point.

374
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Speaker 2: It's interesting, cable because in fact, a friend you pointed

375
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 2: out very specifically in the first comment was I'm worried

376
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 2: for you, and you specifically said she didn't tell me

377
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 2: I should leave or anything. It was your own fear

378
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 2: that if I tell them, and I am open with them,

379
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 2: and I hear my own mouth say these things about him,

380
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 2: I'll think I really have to leave, rather than they'll

381
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 2: think I really have to leave.

382
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, And that makes me wonder a little bit

383
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 1: if you have any ideas now in retrospect about what

384
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,879
Speaker 1: do you think it was that made you continue to

385
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: stay in a relationship where that behavior was going on.

386
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Speaker 4: They think my childhood was not that great in the

387
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 4: sense that in school I was the weird girl. I

388
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 4: was the girl that didn't have any friends. I struggled

389
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,439
Speaker 4: academically up until I got to high school, and I

390
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 4: also was an athletic, so I think from a social aspect,

391
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 4: I didn't have that much confidence because I.

392
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:22,679
Speaker 3: Was that weird girl.

393
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 4: So I think that's why I was even more attracted

394
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 4: to him at first, because here I was getting attention

395
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 4: from the popular kid, which was something I think my

396
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 4: inner child desired.

397
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 2: What made you weird exactly?

398
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 4: I was one of the youngest kids in my grade,

399
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 4: and I just struggled academically. Looking back, I just believe

400
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 4: that I was physically and emotionally immature. And my parents

401
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 4: are blue collar workers, so I think, you know, while

402
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 4: they were very physically present, they didn't really know how

403
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 4: to help me academically. So I would always like bring

404
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 4: home like failed tests and they would just yell at

405
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,199
Speaker 4: me to get better grades, but never actually helping me

406
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 4: to Teachers told my parents I should be in special

407
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 4: education classes, so that only further made me think low

408
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 4: of myself. But I just didn't really have the right

409
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 4: resources available to me. And it was funny. By the

410
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 4: time I got to high school, I started to get

411
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 4: straight a's. And I think the reason I'm such an

412
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 4: overtiever now is because of that feeling like I have

413
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 4: to prove something that in her child I still think

414
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 4: hurts or grieves like the life that.

415
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 3: She thought she should have had. It was definitely rough.

416
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: In your letter, you talked about grieving this time in

417
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 1: your life that you spent with Jay, But what you're

418
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: talking about now is grieving those years of childhood. Long

419
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: before you met Jay, you were so isolated, so alone,

420
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: weren't really seen in the way that you needed to

421
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 1: be seen. And I think this grief piece is really

422
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 1: important because when we're trying to process a loss, sometimes

423
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: what we do is we confuse one loss with another loss.

424
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 1: And because you had had that experience in childhood, and

425
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: then you had this experience of a not very good

426
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 1: relationship in your late teens early twenties, you're still you

427
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: say in your letter, grieving this period of your life

428
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 1: that you wish had gone differently. And I wonder if

429
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: you would feel that same way about the j relationship

430
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: if you hadn't also been grieving the losses that you

431
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: experienced in childhood.

432
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do wonder that sometimes, but.

433
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 4: It definitely feels lonely because I feel like sometimes I

434
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 4: can't really talk about it.

435
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: With anyone because what do you imagine would happened?

436
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 4: I just think, you know, my family and friends have

437
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 4: been like worried about me, probably up until like a

438
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 4: few years ago, and I just feel like I need

439
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 4: to present like this stable person at this point, so

440
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 4: I sort of suppress a lot of what I'm feeling

441
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 4: or tell my therapist. But it definitely feels lonely. I

442
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 4: want to forget about it on the outside, but on

443
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 4: the inside I can't forget about it.

444
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: Do your parents know you said that your friends would

445
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: notice some of Jay's behavior. Did your parents ever say

446
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: we're worried about this?

447
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 4: They never said anything. Like recently, with like in the

448
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 4: last couple of years, they've said, like, you know, we

449
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 4: didn't know it was this bad. You hid a lot

450
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 4: from us, But they said we knew the relationship wasn't good,

451
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 4: they didn't realize it was abusive.

452
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: And how did they find out that it was abusive

453
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: if you weren't talking about it.

454
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 4: My sister had told them. There was one night I

455
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 4: had a complete mental breakdown about.

456
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: This after the relationship ended.

457
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, after I had pursued one of these emotionally unavailable guys.

458
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 4: Once that happened, I sort of was like crying over

459
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 4: that guy as well as Jay. And like my parents

460
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 4: like sometimes would joke about my ex Jay, and I

461
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 4: think when they were joking one time, my sister said, like,

462
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 4: you don't You can't joke about that relationship. You don't

463
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 4: realize how bad it was. And I think my parents

464
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 4: were floored. She just was trying to get like my

465
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 4: parents to realize that they failed me in a sense.

466
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 4: At least that's my sister told my parents. That's her opinion.

467
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: What does your sister think your parents should have done

468
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: or what do you think they should have done given

469
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: that they didn't know what was going on.

470
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 4: Like I said, my parents blue collar workers. They we

471
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 4: didn't have the most money growing up, but they really

472
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 4: worked very hard to give us a good life. And

473
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 4: as much as I love them, I think growing up

474
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 4: their focus was always on what looks good on paper.

475
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 4: The message me and my sister received when we're going

476
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 4: to college, like you need to pick a major that

477
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,239
Speaker 4: is going to you're going to make six figures right

478
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 4: right out of school. You cannot major in education. You're

479
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 4: not going to get a job as a teacher. The

480
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 4: keeping me in sports growing up when I wasn't good

481
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 4: at them, and that sort of like ruined my self

482
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 4: confidence because when you're, you know, an eleven year old girl,

483
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 4: you compare yourself to your peers, and you know, me

484
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 4: and my sister used to cry and beg our parents,

485
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 4: you know, please let us quit the sport, Please let

486
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 4: us quit this club, and it was always like, no,

487
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 4: you have to do everything you can do to make

488
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 4: your resume look good. So I think my sister, you know,

489
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 4: felt like my parents failed me in the sense that

490
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 4: they never cared about my happiness.

491
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: That you didn't have the tools to really listen to

492
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: what you wanted or desired because you didn't have practice

493
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: with that.

494
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, like everything I would like come to my parents

495
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 4: with was always dismissed. You know, something as silly as

496
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: wanting to quit softball. I would have so much anxiety

497
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 4: going to practice. I used to cry in the bathroom

498
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 4: because I didn't want to play it, and I would

499
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 4: cry to my parents and it.

500
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 3: Was just sort of like too bad.

501
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 4: So I think I just learned to do things that

502
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 4: I didn't want to do in life, learned to stay

503
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 4: in jobs too long, stayed in relationships.

504
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 3: Longer than they wanted to.

505
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: You said that your parents are really concerned about you

506
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: getting a job where you made a lot of money

507
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: right out of college and that things looked a certain way.

508
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: Did you end up choosing a career based on what

509
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: they wanted?

510
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.

511
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 4: I was always good at math in high school because

512
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 4: I had sort of dealt with a lot of depression

513
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 4: and anxiety. I actually wanted to major in psychology. I

514
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 4: wanted to become like a therapist because I said I

515
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 4: wanted to help people like me.

516
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 3: And.

517
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 4: I was told like, no, you're going to need to

518
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 4: go to grad school for that major. It was basically like,

519
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 4: you're good at math, so just do something in business.

520
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 4: So I chose finance, and it definitely didn't belong in

521
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 4: that major.

522
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 3: I think.

523
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 4: A lot of the reasons why I even stayed in

524
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 4: my relationship with Jay's because I was very unhappy in college,

525
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 4: forcing something that wasn't meant for me, and he was

526
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 4: my only source of happiness really at the time. I mean,

527
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 4: he wasn't happiness for me. But that was my only.

528
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: Crutch, let's call it an escape.

529
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, and even the message like you have to get

530
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 4: a job at a big bank, and that job was

531
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 4: also one of the worst experiences of my life. I

532
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 4: don't actively blame my parents anymore. I see them for

533
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 4: who they are with their own issues. I just wished

534
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 4: they would have listened to me. I wish I would

535
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 4: have had the insight to, like, you know, go to

536
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 4: college and choose my own major, or at least I

537
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 4: wish I could have dual majored in psychology. I wish

538
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 4: I would have done something for myself. But the message

539
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 4: was so ingrained in me that life is and you

540
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 4: just have to accept it for what it is.

541
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: Have you ever told them that you feel this way.

542
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 3: Yes, they harbor a lot of guilt.

543
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 4: My parents were actually paying recently for my therapy and

544
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 4: I didn't ask them to. I think they just feel

545
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 4: so bad for what had happened, and they've seen me

546
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 4: have you know, a ton of mental breakdowns over my job.

547
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 4: So I think knowing that they're sorry helped me forgive

548
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 4: them a little bit, and not.

549
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: Just being sorry, but knowing that they can actually see you.

550
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, Taylor, you said your sister the one that told

551
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: your parents about what was going on with Jay, and

552
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: your sister is the one that got through to them

553
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: about this stuff as well. Do you have a relationship

554
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: now where you don't need your sister and if something

555
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: is going on, if there's something you wanted to bring up,

556
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: you feel comfortable doing it in a way that they

557
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: can hear and respond to.

558
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 4: Luckily, yes, it took up me a long time to

559
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 4: get there, but I have really strong boundaries with my

560
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 4: parents and they respect them. For example, my mother she

561
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 4: knows when she comments on my clothes. I know it's

562
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 4: very trivial, but if she comments on my parents, she

563
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 4: knows I'm going to flip out on her. Probably isn't

564
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 4: the mature thing to do, but I've gone into a

565
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 4: place where my boundaries are my boundaries, and I'm really

566
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 4: proud of the boundaries I have with my parents, and

567
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 4: I think because they respect my boundaries, I can have

568
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 4: a good relationship with them.

569
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if the timing of having boundaries with your

570
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: parents and having them really see you coincides with not

571
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: going after unavailable men anymore and meeting your fiance.

572
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 4: So I think some of the men. Well, two of

573
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 4: them were divorced, and they were only divorced for a month,

574
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 4: So I think that should have been my first red

575
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 4: flag that maybe they weren't ready to be in a relationship.

576
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 4: I think after you dating some men like this, I

577
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 4: had rules for myself. One of them was something as

578
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 4: silly as they couldn't add me on social media unless

579
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 4: they were serious about being serious with me. I try

580
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 4: to look at everything and say like, Okay, they may

581
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 4: have messed up, but where did I fail to see

582
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 4: the red flags?

583
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 3: What did I just sweep under the rug that shouldn't

584
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 3: have been So.

585
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: It sounds like you were learning from these relationships with

586
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,959
Speaker 1: people who weren't available or weren't wanting what you were

587
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: wanting at the same time, But in your letter you

588
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: present it as if you're just not learning anything. You

589
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: said something like I've learned nothing from this, and yet

590
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: you were starting to set boundaries. You were coming up

591
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: with what are my limits? You were looking at yourself

592
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: and saying, what is my role in this? And then

593
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 1: you started to have a different relationship with your parents,

594
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: and you also met your fiance. So help us understand

595
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: your perception from your letter that nothing has changed to

596
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 1: I met this guy, and I'm in this really different

597
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: relationship than I've ever been in.

598
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 4: I still see myself as this helpless young child. As

599
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 4: proud as I am of the strides I've made, as

600
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 4: happy as I am with my fiance, I still am

601
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 4: scared that I can't trust myself. I'm even scared to

602
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 4: be one thousand percent happy with my fiance because I'm

603
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 4: scared that I'm just going to keep making mistakes.

604
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: Can you just clarify what mistakes you could make with

605
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 2: your field and say right now?

606
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 4: For example, I'm scared to want a baby, And the

607
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 4: reason why I'm scared to want a baby is because

608
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 4: I convinced myself that I'm infertile, even though I go

609
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 4: to the doctors yearly. There's nothing wrong with me. But

610
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 4: I'm just convinced that I can't have what other people have.

611
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 4: And I'm even like scared to plan a wedding because

612
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 4: I'm just I'm just like it's going to rain, something's

613
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 4: gonna happen. I'm just like, oh, like, let me just

614
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 4: elope so that I don't have expectations, I sort of

615
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 4: self sabotage to manage so cold foreseeable failure.

616
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 1: So desire is dangerous, Yes, because the other shoe could

617
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: easily drop.

618
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's right. Sometimes I feel like a fraud.

619
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 4: My fiance adores me, and I'm like, what do you adore?

620
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 4: He's never given me a reason not to trust him,

621
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 4: or every day he shows me that he loves me

622
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 4: in some capacity.

623
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 1: What do you love about him?

624
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 4: I love that he's always there for me. Besides the

625
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 4: fact that he's very physically attractive, at least to me,

626
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 4: his comfort to means everything. His friendship to me is everything.

627
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 4: He's a very sensitive guy, and that's very different than

628
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 4: anyone have ever dated. His emotions are on his sleeve

629
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 4: and I never have to guess what he's thinking. He

630
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 4: surprises me with flowers all the time, or he'll cook

631
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 4: for me and he'll say, like, you know, I made

632
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 4: this meal with love. Just a lot of little things

633
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 4: that I really have grown to appreciate about him.

634
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: So you were talking about how cared for you feel

635
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: by your fiance, and at the same time you're afraid

636
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,919
Speaker 1: to really talk to him about some of your experiences

637
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: that still live inside of it. What do you think

638
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: makes for that disconnect between I really trust this person

639
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: and I really feel cared for, and I also don't

640
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: want to open up to him. Is that the other

641
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: shoes going to drop? And if so, how might it drop.

642
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 4: I don't think he would leave me or anything if

643
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 4: I did open up. I really think it's rooted back

644
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 4: in the shame I still feel from the experience. I

645
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 4: want to present that things are peachy, when in reality

646
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 4: there's turmoil inside. I think it's really just the vulnerability

647
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 4: of opening up to such rough subjects, to dark times

648
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 4: in my life.

649
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 2: You have shame about the relationship with Jay, but do

650
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 2: you also have shame specifically about your elementary school experiences?

651
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 3: Yeah?

652
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, what are people going to say

653
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 4: if I'm like, oh, you know, I was a loser

654
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 4: in elementary school And I know that's dramatic.

655
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 3: I know it's not that dark, but you know, it

656
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 3: scares me.

657
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: I notice how much you downplay your experiences. Earlier in

658
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 1: our conversation, you said about a boundary that you were setting.

659
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: This might sound silly, when it was not a silly

660
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: boundary at all. It was a very valid boundary to set.

661
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: And now you're saying you're being dramatic by talking about

662
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: what sounds like a very lonely and painful time in

663
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: your childhood. You said after the Jay relationship that they

664
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: have to be emotionally available, they have to be stable,

665
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: and you have this partner who seems to be that,

666
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: but you don't seem to want to be emotionally available

667
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: in your upcoming marriage. What do you think will happen

668
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: if you continue to hide like this?

669
00:38:58,440 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 3: I mean, worst case a divorce.

670
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 4: Obviously that's not something I would ever want, But I

671
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 4: understand what you're saying, Laurie. If we did have kids,

672
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 4: if I'm going to do what my parents did to

673
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 4: my kids and invalidate their emotions that you know, that

674
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 4: terrifies me too, even have kids, to know, like, what

675
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 4: if I screw them up the way my parents screwed

676
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 4: me up? You know, what if I invalidate their emotions

677
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 4: or their needs, or you know, if I have kids,

678
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 4: what if I try to give them the life that

679
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 4: I always wanted but never had and force them.

680
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 3: To do things they don't want to do.

681
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: First of all, it sounds like you're so aware of

682
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: these things in a way that parents who do do

683
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: those things to their kids maybe aren't so aware that

684
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: they're doing it. But also, you went away from my question.

685
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: And I bring that up because again we're talking about

686
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: the emotional intimacy with your fiance, and when I go there,

687
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: you go to a different worry. So if we can

688
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: sit for a second and think about that and see

689
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: what happens in your body as that question goes through you,

690
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: you imagine being emotionally available to him. What do you

691
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: imagine it will feel like to be with this person

692
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 1: who really cares about you? But then you stay closed

693
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: off in certain ways, so you're kind of unknowable. He

694
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: doesn't really get to know you, and in certain ways

695
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: you won't really get to know him.

696
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 3: Feels like really unfair to him and to myself.

697
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 1: How does it feel unfair to you?

698
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 4: Because I deserve to make peace and I deserve to

699
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 4: express myself, and I just keep denying myself that it's

700
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 4: only going to just further confirm to my self disbelief

701
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 4: that I'm not worthy.

702
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 3: It's a cruel form of self sabotage.

703
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: It's self sabotage in the name of self protection, except

704
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: that it doesn't actually protect you. It leaves you more

705
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,240
Speaker 1: vulnerable to things going wrong.

706
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, what I'm hearing from you is that there is

707
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: a way in which you actually really don't feel worthy

708
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: because you still feel in part and too much like

709
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 2: the weirdo kid, the loser as you represent it, and

710
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: you still have so much shame around Jay. And I

711
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: think what's preventing you from opening up and being emotionally

712
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: available to your fiance and to other people in your

713
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 2: life perhaps is that there is very very little self

714
00:41:54,280 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 2: compassion in all those formulations. You are viewing yourself through

715
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 2: the eyes of a young girl that was really suffering

716
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 2: and really having a hard time. Till you can start

717
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: thinking of your history and of yourself with much much

718
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 2: more self compassion, it's going to be very hard for

719
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: you to open up.

720
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, you said that your finance job made you miserable.

721
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 1: Have you made a change since that job?

722
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 3: Yeah?

723
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 4: I quit was sort of another moment similar to when

724
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 4: I broke up with Jay, where I felt very empowered.

725
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 4: Within like two months, I literally lost like twenty five pounds,

726
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 4: like just the stress just evaporated from my body. That's

727
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 4: how much stress I was holding in to my body

728
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 4: from that job, and it just left. I didn't even

729
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 4: like change my diet, and everyone was like, you just

730
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 4: look like a different person. And I think once I

731
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 4: left that job that was suffocating to me is when

732
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 4: I really decided did that things needed to change. And

733
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 4: I almost can thank my fiance a little bit for that,

734
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 4: because he has a job that he loves and he

735
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 4: almost inspired me to seek different for myself.

736
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: So are you pursuing something that excites you.

737
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 4: I took a different job at a much smaller firm

738
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 4: and I've been there for like a year and a half.

739
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 3: Now.

740
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 4: I am still like in the sort of the finance world,

741
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 4: but I'm working nine to five, which is just amazing.

742
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 4: My priority has been trying to fix myself, if you.

743
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: Will, or can we say, maybe trying to heal myself.

744
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, my priority has been to heal myself. I'm, you know,

745
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 4: in therapy. I'm reading books again, which is something I

746
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 4: haven't done in years. I have, you know, dabbled in

747
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 4: yoga a little bit.

748
00:43:58,680 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 3: Though.

749
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 4: I think my career is sort of on a back

750
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 4: burner right now because I'm trying to fix these other

751
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 4: areas of my life first.

752
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: And where in all of this is your interest in

753
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: psychology and your desire to become a therapist.

754
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,439
Speaker 4: I mean, I still think I would love to be one.

755
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 4: I know I could do it if I really wanted to, So,

756
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 4: sort of like I do another areas of my life,

757
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 4: I kind of keep my life small, or I stay

758
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 4: in this limbo to protect myself.

759
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: Does your fiance know about that desire?

760
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 4: He does, and he said, like, if you want to

761
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 4: do it, you know, I'll support you. But I'm scared

762
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,720
Speaker 4: to shake things up in my life because right now

763
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 4: I feel a lot better. But I'm scared to be

764
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 4: too happy and I'm scared to be too depressed. So

765
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 4: I keep myself in a limbo area.

766
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: Saying that you're afraid to feel too happy and you're

767
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: afraid to go spiraling down into depression. So you want

768
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: to stay in this kind of safe middle. But the

769
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 1: problem with that is that you don't really feel Yeah,

770
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: so I think there is something in between depression and

771
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: just not feeling great that day. But for you, it's

772
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: like it's either going to be really great or really awful,

773
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: kind of like it was with Jay. You know, things

774
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 1: are great he called me, he wants me, or things

775
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: are terrible. He's ignoring me, or he's treating me poorly.

776
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: And so your idea to solve that problem is to

777
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: just kind of stay in this safe middle. And what

778
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 1: I want to suggest is that if you mute one feeling,

779
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: you mute the others. And so you're so afraid of

780
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: feeling joy that you're muting some of the pain, and

781
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 1: you're so afraid of going into the pain that you're

782
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: muting the joy, and so you're not really kind of

783
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: alone live in your emotional world. And you again have

784
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: this all or nothing idea that well, i'd have to

785
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 1: kind of drop everything into a psychology program when I

786
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm committed as opposed to maybe I'll

787
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: just take a class in psychology, just one and see

788
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: if I like it.

789
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to ask you, Kayla, in the therapy

790
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 2: that you've had, has the topic of anxiety.

791
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 3: Come up now? I was always very focused on the

792
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 3: depression part of myself, or I thought that was the

793
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 3: most urgent thing that needed to be addressed. We never

794
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 3: really got to the anxiety part.

795
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 2: I'm asking because I hear an undercurrent of anxiety in

796
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 2: almost everything that you're talking about. By definition, anxiety is

797
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: a fear of an unspecified, non immediate, vague kind of

798
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 2: dread of something bad will happen. It's not an articulated

799
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,720
Speaker 2: what that bad might be. It's not something that's looming

800
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 2: this second, it might happen later or tomorrow or next week.

801
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 2: And that feeling of dread is the thing that people

802
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 2: interpret sometimes as fear. But one of the biggest responses

803
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 2: people have to anxiety is avoidance. They avoid the things

804
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 2: that make them anxious. And you have a pattern of

805
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 2: avoidance in your life, the avoiding getting too close to

806
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 2: people by sharing truly what's going on, Avoiding going after

807
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 2: the things you really really want, experiencing the joy which

808
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 2: you know is there to be had in certain areas,

809
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: because then what if I get blindsided and something goes

810
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: wrong and there's no indication anything going wrong in your

811
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 2: relationship with your fiance, Does that resonate with you in

812
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 2: any way, that there's this undercurrent of anxiety that's been

813
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: going on in your life as well?

814
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 4: Spot On, It's even funny, I'm like trying to convince

815
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,720
Speaker 4: my fiance that I don't want to have a bridal

816
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 4: party because I don't even want to like offend people

817
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 4: by not like choosing them as bridesmaids.

818
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 3: My go to is just to avoid even having a

819
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:07,720
Speaker 3: bridal party.

820
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:12,919
Speaker 4: So it's interesting you bring that up because it manifests.

821
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 3: So many different ways in my life.

822
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 2: And it's important to label it anxiety because if you

823
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 2: don't label it anxiety, then you start coming up with

824
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 2: rationales for it and justifying them. So why I'm saying that,

825
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 2: I want you to note this idea of calling things

826
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 2: anxiety when it fits that pattern, because then you at

827
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 2: least know, no, that's not necessarily a real danger, that's anxiety.

828
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 4: I think I've been focused on depression as the driver

829
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 4: that I neglected to see, you know, anxiety in the

830
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 4: passenger seat.

831
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: You did that with the kids too, that I'm afraid

832
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: to have kids because I might do things to them

833
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,879
Speaker 1: that would repeat what my parents did with me. I'm

834
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: afraid to entertain the idea of psychology because I don't

835
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,800
Speaker 1: know if I'm committed to it yet. There's a reason

836
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: for everything that you come up with. But underneath that,

837
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 1: what happens is, and you've used this word several times today,

838
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: self sabotage in the name of self protection when it

839
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: doesn't actually protect you, does not keep you safe. It

840
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 1: keeps you on high alert. As guy was saying, that's

841
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: the anxiety. You're always on high alert, and you come

842
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: by that Honestly, you've had experiences that might have taught

843
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: you that you need to be accept Now you're in

844
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 1: a different situation, you don't need to be in high

845
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: alert around those things anymore.

846
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 2: And the last thing about anxiety is it's exhausting because

847
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 2: you have to do these mental gymnastics and these accountings

848
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 2: and these rationales and explaining and avoiding. It just keeps

849
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 2: you very busy.

850
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: And the other function of it is that while you're

851
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: spinning in your head, you don't really have room to

852
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: connect with your fiance, maybe with your friends, maybe with

853
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: yourself in the ways that I think would create a

854
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 1: much richer experience for you.

855
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.

856
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 2: So, Kayla, we have some advice for you. Here's the

857
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 2: first part. As I said, I was concerned that you

858
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 2: are very self critical and that you need to improve

859
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: your self compassion skills and practice. What would like you

860
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 2: to do is would like you to make a list

861
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 2: of the ten greatest self critical hits that play out

862
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 2: in your head, things like I was a weirdo, or

863
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 2: it's shameful that I stayed in a relationship that was abusive,

864
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 2: what's wrong with me? Whatever the narratives are, write out

865
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: the full sentences of the really harsh statements that you

866
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 2: make for yourself. So make that list of ten, and

867
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 2: then for each one, present the self compassionate option. The

868
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 2: self compassionate option for I was a weirdo in school

869
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 2: was I was depressed and I felt very alone, and

870
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 2: I didn't have anyone to talk to, and I didn't

871
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,479
Speaker 2: connect with people, and I was really unhappy. Again, self

872
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 2: compassion is about how you would talk to a friend

873
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 2: or what's somebody who really cared about you, how they

874
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 2: would frame that rather than the self critical way. So

875
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 2: that's what would like you to do. Ten of the

876
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 2: most self critical statements and then ten self compassionate takes

877
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 2: on those exact same statements.

878
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: And we think that will help with the next part

879
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: of the assignment, which is when you can have a

880
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: little more self compassion for yourself, you might be able

881
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: to start to connect with other people in a deeper way.

882
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: And we want you to start with your fiance. We

883
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: would like you to talk to him about some of

884
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: the things that you haven't shared with him yet. For example,

885
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: when that thing happened where he said he was joking

886
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 1: about you left the dishes in the sink, and you

887
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: immediately got up and said, Oh, I'll take care of

888
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: that right away. You said, he sort of understands where

889
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: that comes from, Yeah, but not completely. We would like

890
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: you to tell him that you have been holding back

891
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: a little bit because you have a lot of shame

892
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: around some parts of your life that happened before you

893
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: met him, and that as you start this marriage together,

894
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:38,720
Speaker 1: you really want to practice being more connected and open

895
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: and you value so much how much he cares for

896
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,359
Speaker 1: you and the trust that you have with him, and

897
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: so you want to share with him something that feels

898
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: very delicate to you, and then tell him a little

899
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: bit about your childhood and what that was like what

900
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 1: you shared with us today, and maybe tell him a

901
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: little little bit about how much shame you have around

902
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 1: staying with this person in your early twenties that still

903
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: haunts you today and that you're really working on that,

904
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: but you just want him to know that it's there

905
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 1: because you want to get closer with him, share with

906
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: us what it felt like to share this with him,

907
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 1: and then also how he responded to you. And then

908
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 1: the third thing we'd like you to do is that

909
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: we noticed again that you are a master of coming

910
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,839
Speaker 1: up with reasons that you can't do or have the

911
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: things that you want. And you talked about how much

912
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 1: you would have liked to have pursued psychology or at

913
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: least explored it if finance was not the mandate in

914
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: your household, and so we want you to really have

915
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: the space to explore that. And that doesn't mean you

916
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: have to commit to a graduate program when you have

917
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: no idea if you really want to do this yet.

918
00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: But what we'd like you to do is to take

919
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 1: a class. We want you to sign up for a

920
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:06,320
Speaker 1: psychology class. There's probably one at your local community college.

921
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 1: There might be one online. It might be more fun

922
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 1: if you go in person. But as you're doing your

923
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: yoga and your therapy and all of the other things

924
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 1: you're doing to heal, we'd like you to invest a

925
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: little bit of time in your joy. And what you

926
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,879
Speaker 1: can learn from this experience is you might say, oh,

927
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't actually like that after all,

928
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 1: but it inspires me to think about what I might

929
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: enjoy more than finance. Maybe it's not psychology. Or you

930
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: might say I really love this. I might want to

931
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: take a second class, or I might want to get

932
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 1: some brochures about graduate school or whatever it is, but

933
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 1: either way, it will give you some useful information that

934
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 1: is coming from your desires, your wishes, and not some

935
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: external mandate that you've been living with for a very

936
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: long time. So you want to give some space to

937
00:54:57,760 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: your desires.

938
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 2: One lost. We were thinking also about the anxiety that

939
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 2: you have, especially around experiencing joy. So we would like

940
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 2: this week you to catch, if possible, five times that

941
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,919
Speaker 2: you are thinking about things that could bring you joy

942
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: in a way that's full of dread and avoidance. For example,

943
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 2: how can I have a bridal shower. I'll alienate one

944
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 2: of my friends, so I can't do that. You have

945
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 2: that thought, all you need to do is go, okay,

946
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 2: that's an anxious thought. That's not a realistic concern. That's anxiety.

947
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 2: Or I can't have kids because I might end up

948
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 2: perting them in some way as a parent, So let's

949
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 2: just avoid having kids all together. Any one of those

950
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: things that comes up that are things that could bring

951
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 2: you joy or pleasure and the dread comes up about

952
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 2: them just to label them anxiety. This is my anxiety

953
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 2: around joy. We want you to do in that way

954
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 2: so that when you have anxiety around joy and you

955
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 2: take it less seriously as a threat, and we're like,

956
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 2: here's me doing this anxiety around joy thing, and so

957
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 2: that's why we want you to catch it as much

958
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 2: as possible this week.

959
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 3: Okay, it sounds really good.

960
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 4: I didn't really realize to an extent that it was

961
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 4: almost controlling my life. So even just recognizing that already

962
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 4: just makes me feel a lot better and a little hopeful.

963
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 4: So I'm definitely excited to do these tasks that you

964
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 4: both mentioned.

965
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: Well, we're very excited for you to try these things

966
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:31,879
Speaker 1: this week, and we look forward to hearing how it goes.

967
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you or thank you guys so much for

968
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:36,800
Speaker 4: having me on the show. It's been a pleasure.

969
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 1: So I was really surprised when we started a session

970
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: today and the first thing Kayla told us was that

971
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 1: she not only was engaged, but had been dating this

972
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: very seemingly emotionally available man for two years. And it

973
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: seems so strange before we got to know her, but

974
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 1: once we started unpacking some of this, it actually made

975
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: sense that it is so terrifying for her to even

976
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: voice something good in her life that she just pushes

977
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 1: it down. She couldn't tell us this good thing had

978
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: happened in her life. She couldn't write it down until

979
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: we actually were in session, and she had to tell

980
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: us so that we could do the session with her right.

981
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 2: It was really difficult for her to add that in

982
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 2: her letter and say, oh, but things are good in

983
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 2: this area because she has so much anxiety and dread

984
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 2: about that going south at some point.

985
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: The going south part is the part that really trips

986
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: her up. That I can't hold to tightly onto the

987
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: things that bring me joy because something will go wrong.

988
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 1: I can't think about having kids because I might repeat

989
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: the patterns of my parents. I can't think about my

990
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 1: bridal shower, even though that might be really fun, because

991
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 1: I might offend someone. I can't think about this career

992
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 1: that I might want to have because I'm supposed to

993
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: do finance. And it's interesting that when you brought up

994
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: anxiety that seemed to really resonate with her, that she

995
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 1: hadn't thought about it that way. And that's so common

996
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: I think for anybody listening, this idea that when we're

997
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: spinning around something, or we're perseverating on something, and we

998
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: focus on something almost obsessively, that there's something else that

999
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 1: we are afraid of. And when we get to that fear,

1000
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 1: it becomes much less scary. If we can just name

1001
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 1: the fear, the anxiety goes down.

1002
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 2: I love by the way her phrasing of I thought

1003
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 2: depression was driving this. I didn't realize anxiety was in

1004
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 2: the passenger seat. As you know, Laurie, those two go

1005
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: on road trips together all the time.

1006
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 1: They're fast friends. Yes, so we gave her a bunch

1007
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: of things to think about this week and to do

1008
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 1: this week, and I am really looking forward to hearing

1009
00:58:47,720 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: how that all goes for her, as am I.

1010
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 2: You listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a

1011
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 2: short break, So Laurie, we heard back from Kayla. Let's

1012
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 2: hear how she did this week.

1013
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 5: Hey Laurie, Hey guy, it's Kayla. I'm here to talk

1014
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 5: about the task that you have both given me too

1015
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 5: complete over the past week. Vers One guy maybe wanted

1016
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 5: me to make a list of ten self critical hits

1017
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 5: with the self compassion component, and I wanted to share

1018
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 5: one that I had written out. So the self critical

1019
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 5: hit is I should have never gotten into a relationship

1020
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 5: with Jay, And the self compassion component that I wrote

1021
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 5: out was I have always felt like the outcasts in society.

1022
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 5: Being with a popular guy like Jay gave me more

1023
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:54,919
Speaker 5: confidence and maybe believe I was worthy of love even

1024
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,959
Speaker 5: if it didn't work out. I think writing that out,

1025
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 5: I try to imagine myself what my friend would say

1026
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 5: to me, but I really try to believe that it

1027
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 5: was something I would say to myself. So I definitely

1028
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 5: think this exercise really really challenged me and enjoyed, you know,

1029
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 5: sort of writing out the self compassion components. You know.

1030
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 5: The second thing you would have requested was to connect

1031
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 5: with my fancy more. And I talked to him about everything,

1032
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 5: including what it was like an elementary school for me,

1033
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 5: and sort of more about what happened in the relationship

1034
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 5: with Jay, and to my surprise, but probably not to

1035
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 5: Laurie or Guy surprised, his response is sort of like,

1036
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 5: you know, I wish you had told me sooner. We

1037
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 5: were able to have a conversation about it, and I

1038
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 5: feel pretty good after sharing with him, so I think

1039
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 5: it's something I'm going to continue going forward. The third thing, Laurie,

1040
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 5: I know you have requested that I sign up for

1041
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 5: a psychology class. Unfortunately I have not done that yet.

1042
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 5: I just not for me. I can mentally get myself

1043
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 5: to do right now, but I feel hopeful that it

1044
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 5: is something I will do one day. So I just

1045
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 5: really want to thank you both for taking the time

1046
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 5: to speak with me. Really put a lot of things

1047
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 5: into perspective. I made me think about a lot of

1048
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 5: different things. So I hope you both take care.

1049
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 6: So we give people a lot to do every week

1050
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 6: because we only have one session with them, And with

1051
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 6: the first two tests that we gave Kayla, it sounds

1052
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 6: like she did beautifully. She got out of her shame

1053
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 6: and went into a place of compassion with some of

1054
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 6: the narratives that she had been carrying around, and she

1055
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 6: was able to talk to her fiance and start to

1056
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 6: connect with him in a different way without hiding some

1057
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 6: of these parts of her past that felt so shameful

1058
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 6: to her.

1059
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's all very positive. But when it

1060
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: came to the other two tasks around signing up for

1061
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 1: the psychology class and identifying her anxiety around joy, she

1062
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 1: seems to have struggled with those two.

1063
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 2: And I want our listeners to understand that when we

1064
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 2: give these multi component tasks, it's for a reason, because

1065
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 2: things are always connected, and so the idea of the

1066
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 2: psychology class was not well. Try psychology was a symbolic

1067
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 2: way to step out of her parents' expectations and do

1068
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 2: the thing that she had trouble advocating for herself when

1069
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 2: she was younger, and the task around the anxiety around

1070
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 2: joy was an important task also to create a separation

1071
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 2: between the previous history that she had of really struggling

1072
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 2: with anxiety but thinking that actually her desire and her

1073
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 2: wishes and her wants were problematic like having children, as

1074
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 2: opposed to realizing that that was about anxiety and they're

1075
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 2: all connected. So that first part of leaning into the

1076
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 2: engagement more and being more self compassionate is something she

1077
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 2: did well. But I hope, Kaylor, if you're listening to this,

1078
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 2: I would urge you to pick up those other two

1079
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 2: tasks and do them if you can, because they, together

1080
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 2: with the first two, which we hope you'll keep working on,

1081
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 2: as you said, together will help you really change the

1082
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 2: old patterns that tend to be dominant in our lives

1083
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 2: when we've had them for many years and we need

1084
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 2: a multi prompt approach to really break out of them.

1085
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 2: And I hope if you can do all of those things,

1086
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 2: it would really help you move forward in a really

1087
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 2: substantial way. Next week, we're checking in with Doug, who

1088
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 2: struggled with a fear of intimacy after an emotional scarring relationship,

1089
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 2: to hear how he's doing one year later.

1090
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 7: It's really hard for me to open up to him

1091
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 7: because every time in the past I've opened up about

1092
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 7: my feelings, it's either bend, met with rejection or met

1093
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 7: with OCD. So it's really hard for me to trust

1094
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 7: that I can have a safe person to open up too.

1095
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1096
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Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please

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Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it

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Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

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Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

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Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

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Speaker 2: email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

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Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

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Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher, additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John Washington,

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Speaker 2: and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gujierrez

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Speaker 2: and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast Fairy

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Speaker 2: god Mother Katie Curic, we can't wait to see you

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Speaker 2: at our next session. Theotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio

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Speaker 2: fisher Food