WEBVTT - Fame, Influence, and Identity w/Debby Ryan 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.920 I'm Shonda Rhymes and we're bringing Dominant Stories, created by 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.960 Shawn land Audio in partnership with the Dove Self Stam Project. 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:13.320 How you speak to yourself matters, how you speak to 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:17.080 other people matter, and how you think about other people, 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.680 what you disrespect in other people. I think it's worth 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.960 it for us to first investigate like that touches someone 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:25.760 in the place that the thing that you really care 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:32.640 about touches you. Hey, I'm Jess Meaner and this is 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:36.680 Dominant Stories, the podcast that helps us reclaim and rewrite 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.640 the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, about our bodies, 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:54.920 our beauty, our creativity, and our identities. So. I don't 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.040 know about you, but when I was growing up, I 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.760 wanted to be so many things. I annually wanted to 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.000 be a lizard trainer. I don't know why I thought 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:05.280 that was a real job, But most of the time 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:09.000 I fantasize about being a famous actor. I mean, I 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.320 was a kid who loved performing, and I was a 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:15.160 kid in the eighties so obsessed with TV and the 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:16.800 people that I saw on TV. I wanted to be 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:18.959 just like them. Whever that was Nancy McKeon on the 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:21.720 Facts of Life or Molly Ringwald and the Breakfast Club 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:23.600 and if you're not a gen X or go and 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.399 google those folks immediately. But um, you know, I don't 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.720 know if my desire to be famous was so much 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.200 about fame itself, but about the popularity that I thought 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:35.440 fame would bring me. I mean, hi, I was a 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:37.440 girl at the last name of Wiener. I was like 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:41.120 relentlessly picked on in school, and I thought that somehow 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.560 fame would inoculate me from feeling some of those things, right, 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:47.640 But I found myself as the years have gone on. 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.160 I had a lot of dominant stories about fame and 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:53.240 success and they would kind of sound like, you know, 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.160 when I'm successful, then people are going to love me, 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.760 which is why I'm always so fascinated to talk to 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:02.960 folks who did have a chance to live out my 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.040 childhood dream and become famous at a young age. What 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.160 does that do to their dominant stories? And it's funny 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:12.440 because all of us now could be famous. You know, 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:14.720 there are so many more ways to be famous than 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:19.160 just being an actor. Social media has really democratized the 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.720 platform to reach an audience. So how do we live 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:27.080 our lives authentically while others are looking and that's what 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:29.119 we're gonna talk about on today's show. I am so 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.320 thrilled to have Debbie Ryan joining me. You might know 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.960 Debbie from her hit show Jesse on the Disney Channel, 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.560 or from her series Insatiable, or maybe her new thriller 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:43.480 film called Night Teeth. I've known Debbie since she was fifteen, 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.640 and I have watched her career grow. I've watched her grow, 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.680 and now she has a platform of over thirty five 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.640 million folks who follow her online. And she is still 0:02:54.760 --> 0:03:00.440 so intentional about balancing being vulnerable and human while protecting herself, 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.839 especially living her life out loud. She has so many 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.480 gems to offer this conversation. I cannot wait to dig in. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:09.520 Oh and don't forget to let me know if you 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.800 thank by subscribing and writing a review wherever you're listening, 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:25.720 by super duper appreciate it. So, Debbie, I was trying 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.799 to do the math on how long we've known each other. 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.520 Did we meet when you were like fifteen? Maybe? Yeah, 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:36.280 it would have been fifteen or sixteen, yeah, which is 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:38.800 crazy because I was coming in. I was doing some 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:43.560 coaching for the cast at the Disney Channel and we 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.640 met and I was so struck. I was struck by 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:47.360 a lot of things about you. But I remember, even 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.000 at that age, the convos that we had felt like 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.840 they automatically went deep. You were very like old soul 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.960 in a young body. Did you do you feel like that? Yeah? 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:01.200 I was actually sort of reflecting on so many of 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:06.040 the moments that we've had and now we have a friendship. 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.240 Before that, we would just run into each other, and 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.520 every time I see you, I would be like, oh, 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:17.599 real one. And I remember there was maybe a panel 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.680 for young women, and maybe we were in the green 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:26.560 room and I just started interrogating you, and I remember 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.800 us having conversations about representation in the dream gap, and 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.760 I remember being like, I can't imagine if I grew 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:36.800 up with dolls that we're wheel cheer users, or how 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.680 do we go? Or that just looked like what the 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.080 world looks like. You always ask really good questions when 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.600 you talk about interrogating me. But I remember the curiosity 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:50.160 that you have about systems and stories and like where 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.960 we're forming those in our own minds and our own experiences. 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.760 And you know, this show is about dominant stories, the 0:04:55.760 --> 0:05:00.000 stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves, and if left unchecked, 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.160 they can become this sort of like seven maybe negative dialogue. 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:09.080 And I was curious about because you've been in this industry, 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.040 the entertainment industry for a long time, started out as 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.520 as a young kid, and you're growing up in it, 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.720 do you remember having a dominant story, like was there 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.560 a debt tape running through your head that you remember 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.960 thinking a lot about. I would say a specific story 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:28.400 that I've had is and really sort of worked on 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.359 not continuing to perpetuate my mind is that what something 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.200 has been put out there and then sort of distilled 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.440 and saturated and reframed and reflected back to you as 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:43.080 something that you said or believed or identified that it's 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:47.960 prescriptive suddenly. And it was tricky for me to not 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.600 see someone hold a fun house mirror version of the 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:53.919 thing that I once said or that they thought that 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:58.839 I was, and use that as a template of where 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:01.240 I not only who I am, but also how I 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:04.320 have to be stuck. Yes, you know, the feeling that 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:08.040 you can't change or evolve because media exists and it's 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.039 a time stamp. And especially when I started out, I 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.000 started out doing traditional interviews, and you would sit down 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.520 with a reporter from Tiger Beat magazine or whatever, and 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.159 you would say something and three months later it would 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:23.600 come back to you or come out in a magazine, 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.640 and there was sort of a distinct time stamp. I 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:30.279 keep thinking about you as a young person, and lots 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:32.800 of young people who have a dream a desire to 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.160 be in the performing arts, to be in the entertainment space, 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.479 and it does require like these like kind of two 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.600 separate personas. Right, there's like the you you are being 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:44.880 as an average twelve thirteen year old human being going 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.720 through all of the requisite growings up right, and then 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:50.919 there's like that adult layer that comes into plan. I 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.880 only say adult because it feels more mature. Right, Shaking 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:55.920 hands with people you don't know, learning how to connect 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.440 with strangers, like wanting to put your best foot forward. 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:01.480 You know, that's a tremendous pressure. Did you have You 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.320 have you thought about that with a little bit of 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.200 space now from that time, I think so, yeah. You 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:09.920 know at the time, I would go onto a red 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.360 carpet or something and someone would go, it's a lot 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.560 of pressure what you do, And I was like, no, 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.320 that's what I go. That was what I know. And certainly, 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:25.640 looking back, the ability to shoulder pressure does not take 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:29.160 away from the weight of the pressure, right, And because 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.080 it was what I knew how to do the way 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.680 that my peers and friends were knowing how to do 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.800 their homework, their extracurriculars, deal with things at home, have chores, 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:40.480 have a weekend job, like I had my own sort 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.000 of category of pressures that I was dealing with in tandem. 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:48.600 And I feel fortunate because when I started, I started 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:52.560 when there were magazines in the beginning of musings of 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:58.200 gossip blogs about celebrities, Ocean Up Jared, and that was starting, 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.640 and it still felt there was like a respectful line. 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:07.200 And then as I continued to do this thing, media changed. 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.960 I became more of the lead and more sort of visible, 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:16.400 and it felt gradual for me. But certainly I think 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:22.080 reconciling both of those things is challenging. I remember seeing 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:26.000 or sort of noticing early on, this dynamic of people 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:34.839 in Hollywood being so attracted to youth and innocence. And 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:39.760 if we can see someone experience something for the first time, acrush, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.560 a heartbreak, an argument with their mom, feeling alone, the 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:45.880 sort of less experience they have the heart of these 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:51.880 things will hit and and then to continue to work 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:56.200 in that world, you have to learn boundaries, or you 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.360 get more cynical, or things become less special, or you 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:02.480 learn how to prota heck to yourself, and that shine 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:07.199 goes away a little bit, and then people get discarded 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.320 because suddenly the thing that made them special was taken used, 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:16.040 ran out. And I just sort of remember speaking with 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.480 my mom alat about it in this perspective that she had, 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:24.160 and it felt like it was always important for me 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:29.360 to remain open and truthful in my human experience, to 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:34.559 protect things like Wonder, to protect believing the best in people, 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:39.559 no matter how many people show me that people can 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:44.240 be so terrible, like not using that to look at 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.920 every person. And in the protecting of that, it almost 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:49.440 feels like the more that you learn how to protect 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:54.160 your boundaries, you can actually feel safe to protect Wonder. 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:56.840 You can be open because you know where your line 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.679 is and you know what's protected. So that juxtaposition is 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.360 certain have been tricky. The thought that you just shared 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.600 about youth, I think is really important because I think 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.800 that's a huge dominant story for young people in our industry, 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:09.640 which is like when you're the fresh new thing, when 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:11.559 you're the fresh face when you're the new this when 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.440 you know it's the unfortunate narrative we've heard about even 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.200 like the Disney lineup of folks who go through like 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:19.320 the Disney system, so to speak, and who are on 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:21.920 Disney shows. And and then when you want to graduate 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:23.839 and you do graduate and you're in this like more 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.680 of an adult life and you're growing up, Like it's 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.120 hard sometimes for people to let people grow, and I 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.720 think internally, like if you're getting a lot of validation 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:35.680 on the newness in your life, when you grow and 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:39.320 you change, that can be really hard to kind of say, well, 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:43.520 people still be interested in me if I'm not serving 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.760 that fantasy for you. It's both in tandem. I think 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.840 when you see child prodigies of any sort of field, 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.040 it's so impressive both that they're young but that they're 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:58.080 doing the grown up thing. And so the more that 0:10:58.200 --> 0:10:59.920 you do the grown up thing, and then you just 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.640 catch up to the age at which other people your 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:04.640 age are still doing that thing, and you're no longer 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.439 sort of a novelty because you're young. The way in 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.960 which maybe you've felt ahead can be rattling now that 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.880 you are. The playing field has been leveled. But then 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.000 the other areas that other people have been able to 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.160 round out at they've maybe had college experiences that they've 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.160 sort of worked through, dynamics with their families or whatever. 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.920 But we live in a culture that glamorizes and romanticizes youth. 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.880 We live in a culture that from a consumer perspective, 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:35.440 that is one of the tools that people use. And 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.120 I think what's been so cool about the last five 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.319 or ten years, especially as it relates to femin feminine 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:45.720 and like female presenting people. You know, it's you're both 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.480 too young to be taken seriously and also not taken 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.960 seriously if you're not young enough to be sort of 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:55.520 aligned with this traditional beauty standard to get in the door. 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:59.040 And it's this strange double edged sword that I think 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:03.040 that we I've been really enjoying as I've been moving 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:07.560 through my twenties, watching women breakthrough in their fifties and 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.480 their sixties and like just absolutely crush it and watching 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:17.840 people be celebrated in their evolution, watching Olivia Coleman, watching 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:23.080 Angela Bassett, watching people only get better and better and 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.080 not be sort of held by this tabloid standard of 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.600 like are they doing an appropriate thing for their age, 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.480 and it's like, we're doing the thing. Let us do 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.920 the thing. We're just settling into our rights. Allow us 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.880 to do it. We're doing it for thirty less income 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.840 on average, Like for us do it. Yeah. When I 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.000 was thinking about this convo with you today, I was 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.719 thinking about the obvious challenge that I think a lot 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.440 of people listening to this might be curious about being 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:57.439 a young woman in Hollywood in entertainment, which is all 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.880 about like the appearance pressure, right, especially around like dominant 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:02.920 stories of like am I pretty enough? Like you know, 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.000 am I the right? Wait for this kind of you 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:09.120 know experience, Like there's so many people who inform those stories. 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.800 Do you remember figuring out how to navigate those? Like 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:14.640 could you share a little bit about like how do 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:18.960 you traverse that minefield as a young person? It's tricky. 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.760 And I will say that my perspective is from an actor, right, 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:28.200 and it's from a person who has seen more photos 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.760 of myself than any person should ever have seen. I 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.520 was talking with my dear friend Sam Landsky the other day, 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.160 but we were just talking and he was like, are 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:41.960 like parents parents, parents parents? Like for how many generations 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.959 have we had mirrors? And then cameras. It's not our 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:47.920 business what we look like. I don't think that we 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:53.200 ever should have been this surrounded with our own reflection. 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.120 And I just think to myself, how normalized it's been. 0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:58.559 And there was a bit of time where I was 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.040 going through strange just orphy and I didn't know how 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:03.480 to figure it out, and I was like, O, great, 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:05.680 it's not my business what I look like. I will 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:07.760 have like a car reflection mirror to make sure I 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.120 don't have anything on my face, but other than that, 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.280 and I did not have any mirrors in my house. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.360 I sort of like covered the ones in the bathroom, 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:20.000 and I went through moving through my day not checking 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:22.280 in with what I look like, because I realized I 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:26.240 was getting caught in the mirror and picking things apart 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.440 and realizing that for me, my job is to be 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.640 an actor. My job is to be a person. It's 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.120 not to be sort of a professional pretty person. That's 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:37.800 not our job. Our job is to be the best 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.840 version of ourselves possible. And then a really healthy and 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:46.560 fun relationship with style, with hair and makeup can come 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.680 from emphasizing those things which first exist in you. M 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:56.040 How do we reconcile the way, social media, even for actors, 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:59.760 has become this additional job, right. I remember talking to 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.960 ends on Broadway who were having less and less success 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:07.160 in getting Broadway shows because they were plucking TV actors 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.200 and film actors to be on Broadway. Because a lot 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.160 of this became a game about audience, right, and how 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.960 much audience are you bringing to something? And then social media, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.480 I think for performers became this like extra job of 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:23.040 cultivating in between. So how do you reconcile the pressure 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.560 to keep the appearance up on social the audience engaged 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:29.200 and interested, because that's become a new like a new 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:32.440 element of the business, don't you think I do? Yeah? 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:37.160 And if you figure it out, let me know. Final answer. 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:41.600 My friend Aaron Long, who's also an actor, he's like Instagram, 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.240 it's a toy. It's fun to play with. It's not 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.280 your job. It's just a toy. And that is really 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.760 helpful for me to remember whenever I sort of get 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:55.000 wound up in it. And also having been seen a 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.720 specific way, there's like this thing about being typecast, and 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:04.200 I certainly have experienced that, and it can be really 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.640 tricky to say you've seen me this way, but that 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.400 was filmed eight years ago. So can I show you 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:13.240 other ways that you could see me and who I 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.560 really am? And so it can be very easy for 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:22.000 us to create moments for social media, to create moments 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.480 to sort of use social media as a medium and 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.200 as a platform. And I know people who do that 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:31.680 so effectively, so elegantly, And for me, I think I 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:36.080 found that social media works best when it's just a 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:42.640 way of highlighting or sharing something that already exists organically, 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:44.840 and if I'm not creating moments for it, if I'm 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:46.760 not sort of living and dying by it. But it's 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.400 just like if people haven't ever seen me do a 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:52.040 lot of stunts or they didn't realize I did a 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:53.720 lot of stunts, but it was physical comedy and a 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.280 sitcom for so long, And I do a lot of 0:16:56.280 --> 0:17:00.760 fight training, but no one's seen me that way. Great, 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.040 Then if I'm doing some fight training, I'll throw something 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.600 up on Instagram showing people with me fight training, And 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.720 if that gives you a more well rounded picture of 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:12.920 who I am, then that's great. And again, I think 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.240 this goes back to the dominant story of like are 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.600 we stagnant? Are we allowed to evolve? And I think 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:22.480 it's like, yes, telegraph it as it happens organically. Well, 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:24.119 that's what I'm hearing in this that I think is 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:28.440 a great takeaway for everybody, quite frankly, which is like 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:32.160 what is your intentionality and using the platform that you're on. Right, 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:36.040 So you're talking about creating sharing. I love the idea 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.159 of sharing to your sharing parts of your life but 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:42.240 that are authentically very That's a great model to think about, right, 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.920 Like pull from your life organically share what you will 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:47.320 for that are different parts of you, but not to 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.919 manufacture an image you think you're supposed to be. And 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.119 to know that if you're sharing what's organically happening in 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.080 your life, it's never going to be as impressive as 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.359 people who do it professionally. My Instagram will never be 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:04.480 as perfect as impressive as someone who does Instagram as 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:06.879 a job, because they are thoughtful about it, they're educated, 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.280 they spend time thinking about it and doing it. So 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.879 I cannot hold myself to a standard of you know, 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:16.840 you can't go to karaoke and like have a good 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.159 time if you're trying to put on the show at 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.119 the Staples Center. That people have spent a lot of 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.800 time putting together like I know what it is and 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.760 know what it is to you, and it does not 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.200 have to be your value. Most most of those people, 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:33.880 that's not what their real life looks like. And that's 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.400 also where the changing and the challenging of the dominant 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.720 stories come in, is that when you recognize that we're 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.200 all going through very similar evolution pieces everything that you've 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:45.280 said thus far in our conversation about like can I change, 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:47.840 can I grow? Can I be allowed to do that 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.000 even when I've got a public audience. I mean, I 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:51.840 think you've said this before, and I think it's really 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.159 worth mentioning again that you do get captured in time, 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:57.840 you know, when we produce things online for content. So 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.840 people who might be seeing you now on a show 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:04.280 like Jesse, which was you know, eight years ago, that's 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.840 new to them and they're thinking about Debbie in that context. 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:11.320 But here's Debbie now, this whole other, evolving, growing, maturing person. 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.280 And so that's part of the downside I would say 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.600 of like living our lives as publicly as we do, 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.919 is that you're right whenever anybody gets connected to you. 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.360 What do you always say, like, context is a luxury, Yeah, 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.840 it is things can be so quickly decontextualized, and it 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.600 can just be challenging to make sure that things represent 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:34.440 what your intention is and what your voices. And something 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:38.159 I've been really focusing on is making sure that the 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.160 things that I put out there, I'm trying to run 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:45.479 it through a filter of like Heidi Gardner, who's currently 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:47.160 a CAUSSE member on SNL, who I think is so 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:49.760 funny and so cool. One time I heard her say, 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:51.760 we were doing press with this movie Life of the Party, 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:56.000 and she was talking about before she says anything, before 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.639 she speaks, she likes to ask herself, is it kind? 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.919 Is it truthful? And is it necessary? And those three things. 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:05.399 It was the first time I had heard that. And 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:11.159 I think joy is necessary. I think laughter is kind. 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.159 And so it's just funny. It's funny, but along as 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:18.120 it also checks those boxes, you know, And then there's 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:19.720 only so much we can do. And this is why 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:22.800 the more that we hold space for ourselves to constantly 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.680 grow and evolve, I think, the more that we can 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:29.880 remember that everyone else around us is also doing that. 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.960 Someone that you love, someone you admire, someone a version 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:37.640 of you that you really liked. Like anything is subject 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:44.600 to sort of find more truth and evolve. Hey, y'all, 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:57.520 don't go anywhere. This conversation is getting so good. Hey, 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.679 we're back. You're ready to conquer your dominance stories. I 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:07.280 know you are here. We go. I think a lot 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:09.120 because I educate, as you know, a lot of young 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.439 people on these topics. We do a lot of workshops 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:16.800 around media literacy and helping to kind of deconstruct some 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:19.440 of the images that we're getting, especially as young people 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.520 who might not have these lived experience yet to contextualize 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.080 in the way that we're talking about. And I wanted 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:26.800 to dig a little bit deeper into like what you 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.639 said before about comparison is the thief of joy, the 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:33.399 comparison trap of all of this scrolling. Because you you 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:35.880 said something in a project that you were doing for 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:38.480 Darling magazine and for Area, And I want to play 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:40.960 a clip of this when we're talking about the compare 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:45.280 and despair cycle that social media can instigate. So I 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:46.480 want to I want to take a listen to that. 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:48.320 I want to play that for you real quick. The 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:52.399 idea of comparison is something that I think became so 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:55.680 new with social media and stuff. I didn't notice it 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:58.119 until I got a zanga or in my space. God, like, 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:01.520 these girls are beautiful and like every thing looks circular 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:05.960 on them, and they're glowy, and they're like just splayed 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:11.440 out on like someone's yacht, which is like shiny things everywhere, 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:14.239 and we're like told that this is like success and 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:16.919 this is beauty, and it is, but there's also like 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:21.320 forty other versions of it. M it's funny to hear 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:25.000 me realizing and working through it for the first time. 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:28.240 It's true, and you know, I think that it also. 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:34.520 I was asking someone the other day how things change 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:38.000 in trends, and we were talking and what women find 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:40.640 beautiful versus what men find beautiful and sort of which 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:45.040 comes first the invention of a new beauty trend or 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:49.320 media pushing it or products being sold to perpetuate it. 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:54.320 And a friend was sharing the sort of origin. They 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:58.200 study a lot of like relations about women, femininity, and sex, 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:01.280 and they were saying that slut shaming is something that 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:07.240 actually was really pushed and brought about and furthered by women, 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:10.880 which is like something I think we maybe historically associate 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:14.120 with men, but it's something that women tend to really 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.199