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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Robert Evans here. It's the end of the year.

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Speaker 2: A couple of big, heavy hitter holidays coming in a row,

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Speaker 2: and we have them off both with the company and

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Speaker 2: as a team. So since there's not a new Bastard's

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Speaker 2: episode this week, and also since Henry Kissinger just died,

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Speaker 2: we figured this would be a nice time to rerun

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Speaker 2: the original six Henry Kissinger episodes. These are great, I

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Speaker 2: think are a useful introduction if you, or perhaps your

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Speaker 2: friends and family don't know why a lot of people

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Speaker 2: are happy that Henry's no longer in the world. I

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Speaker 2: want to thank again the doll up guys, Dave Anthony

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Speaker 2: and Gareth Reynolds for being wonderful guests for this. I

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Speaker 2: checked in with them before we did this, just to

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Speaker 2: see if they had anything to plug. Dave Anthony has

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Speaker 2: an album out that you can find. It's a hot

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Speaker 2: Head by Dave Anthony. You can go to Dave Anthony

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Speaker 2: dot bandcamp dot com. I probably don't need a spell

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Speaker 2: Dave Anthony for you, right, but enough one. And then

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Speaker 2: we've got Gareth Reynolds, who is going to be touring

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Speaker 2: quote all over the place in February and March of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. They have too many links to promote

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Speaker 2: as one. But if you go to Gareth Reynolds dot

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Speaker 2: com that's g A R E T h R E

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Speaker 2: y n O l d s dot com you can

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Speaker 2: find their schedule for live shows. Gareth is wonderful. Check

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Speaker 2: those out too. Anyway, nothing else to say.

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Speaker 1: Here are the episodes.

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Speaker 3: Man, Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh how how we all?

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Speaker 2: This is behind the doll up bastards, up bastards. This

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Speaker 2: is those those doll up bastards. So, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: what do you guys think? Out of all of the

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Speaker 2: characters y'all have covered, who do you think Kissinger gets

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Speaker 2: along with best?

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Speaker 1: Oh? My god, better? I mean that's a tough one.

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Speaker 2: That Judging the Bear, I mean, judge the Bear.

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Speaker 1: He definitely gets along with. There's definitely guys like, uh.

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Speaker 4: You know, the guys who did the filibustering Walker and

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Speaker 4: those guys who just love to just take over other countries.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, kill many people. There's not we've never experienced this

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Speaker 1: level of casualty. Yeah we haven't. This is I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, like there are evil, it's it's the spray

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Speaker 1: of your evil that is so remarkable about this. The

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Speaker 1: ability to have your finger on this button with this

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Speaker 1: level of darkness is uh, I don't know, it's a

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Speaker 1: little you know, I wouldn't say it's you know again,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've covered evil motherfuckers, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: they've been able to scattershot in the way that you know, kissingers.

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Speaker 1: It's a rare talent at a rare time, on a

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Speaker 1: rare team.

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Speaker 5: I would put uh Jan Peter zun Cohen, who was

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Speaker 5: the East the Dutch colony guy, the East India Dutch

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Speaker 5: coin all right, he.

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Speaker 1: Did a lot of killing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he definitely had the same sort of attitude, very

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Speaker 4: casual about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's been a lot of people. Yeah, the the

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Speaker 1: killing because we're white Americans, yeah, or just white people

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Speaker 1: just you know, for for Land has been it's a theme.

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Speaker 1: And Jackson I would put up there with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Jackson, he's he's he's at that level of like

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Speaker 2: monstrous national leader who believes in a fucked up thing,

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Speaker 2: like in terms of his death well Andrew Jackson in

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Speaker 2: his in his white supremacy Hitler and his Hitler stuff,

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Speaker 2: you know, mao, and some of the weird things he

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Speaker 2: believed about crop rotation, or like whatnot. He's at that

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Speaker 2: level of like death toll, but he doesn't believe in anything,

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Speaker 2: Like he's not trying to do a thing. He's not like,

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Speaker 2: it's not like attempting some addition or society. There's guess yeah, I.

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Speaker 4: Guess that's the weirdest part of him because yes, this

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Speaker 4: sort of death count usually comes out of ideology.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to get at.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, imagine if his childhood affected him, what he would do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that might have an impactor. I imagine if that had

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Speaker 1: actually impacted him in any way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it Yeah, that's the that's the it's so

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Speaker 2: fucked up that like it's fucking Craig again. We keep

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Speaker 2: getting back to like Walter from the Big Lebowski logic.

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Speaker 2: But like, at least those other war criminals had an

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Speaker 2: etho scene.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you could negotiate or talk down or at

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Speaker 1: least there would be like an angle.

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Speaker 2: At least like, oh, you are a you are a person,

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Speaker 2: like not to morally compare him negatively to Hitler, because

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Speaker 2: for the record, folks, Hitler's worse, you know than basically Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but there's at least you can grasp onto a level

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Speaker 2: of understanding with Hitler because it's like, well, I believe

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Speaker 2: in things, and I even believe in things that like,

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Speaker 2: I think it would be okay to like use violence

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Speaker 2: in order to because of those things that I believe.

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Speaker 2: I think there are situations that justify violence, and those

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Speaker 2: are based on things that I believe about morality. And

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Speaker 2: Hitler had things that he believed about morality that he

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Speaker 2: felt justified violent violence. And so you can grapple at

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Speaker 2: least with what must have been going on in the

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Speaker 2: man's head when he did some of the terrible things

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Speaker 2: he did. I cannot get into the head of a

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Speaker 2: man who is willing to do this to keep a gig, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's for a gig. Yeah, it's for a gig that

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Speaker 2: he didn't even need. He didn't even need this job.

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Speaker 4: Now he's he's almost as bad as doctor phil Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, yes, that's a little bit hyperbolic, Dave,

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Speaker 2: I don't think.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's hyperable, uh.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Phillian levels of evil.

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Speaker 1: It's also just the the dumb the idea that sixty

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Speaker 1: minutes like was like take the keys hank, have the

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Speaker 1: keys hank. There you go. Yeah, nobody. Yeah, just the

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Speaker 1: run annual normalization.

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Speaker 2: It's like, now, yeah, when it comes to the folks

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Speaker 2: who will defend Henry Kissinger or even call him a

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Speaker 2: great statesman, and those folks do exist. I have read

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Speaker 2: some of their books. When you get to those people,

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Speaker 2: there are generally a couple of achievements that they will trumpet.

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Speaker 2: Is like, well, you have to give him, you know

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Speaker 2: these things, right, and they sound impressive on paper. In

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three, he and North Vietnam's Lee Tho won

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Speaker 2: the Nobel Peace Prize for their work in the negotiations

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Speaker 2: that became the Paris Peace Accords. Right, winning a Nobel

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Speaker 2: Prize for stopping the Vietnam War impressive sounding on paper

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Speaker 2: if you don't think about the fact that he extended

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Speaker 2: the Vietnam War.

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Speaker 1: I help to you know, right, was a part of that.

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Speaker 2: He did negotiate the first Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty and

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Speaker 2: Antillistic Missile Treaty with the Soviet Union.

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Speaker 1: Those are good things. But yeah, but he Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: whole thing is he loved It would be like, it's

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Speaker 1: like congratulating Sully Sullenberger if he threw the geese into them,

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Speaker 1: if he had been breeding geese and that exactly he

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Speaker 1: was making bang noises to scare into the plane the

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Speaker 1: hud set. Yeah, and they're like, what an amazing achievement.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, it's one of those things like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he he got and part of like the arms reductions

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Speaker 2: that he secured with the Soviet Union are less impressive

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Speaker 2: than they sound. I was just talking in the last

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Speaker 2: episode about that documentary Command and Control, and one of

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Speaker 2: the points it makes is that like these Atlas two

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Speaker 2: missiles which nearly killed half of the people on the

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Speaker 2: East Coast through radioactive fallout, were obsolete and not effective

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Speaker 2: and recognized as not being useful, but they were kept

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Speaker 2: in the arsenal not because we needed them, but because

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Speaker 2: we were going to have a treaty with the Soviets

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Speaker 2: soon and we wanted to have something we could give

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Speaker 2: up that wouldn't actually cost us Anya, my god, like that,

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Speaker 2: like it's that kind of shit, Like that's all of

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Speaker 2: the booking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he fucking fuel rods basically, Yeah, yeah, may garbage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he does this, he helps negotiate reductions in

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Speaker 2: nuclear arms after pushing the missile gap myth for the

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Speaker 2: JFKA administration, right, He did help pass an international convention

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Speaker 2: against biological weapons, which is cool if you don't think

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Speaker 2: too much about the defolians that he ordered spread out

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Speaker 2: across Southeast Asia.

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Speaker 1: Jesus, we need to stop people like Kendrick kissing. We

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Speaker 1: have to stop. I must be stopped. It is the

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Speaker 1: only way to appease me.

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Speaker 2: He had a role in the Helsinki Final Act Article ten,

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Speaker 2: which committed nations on both sides of the Cold War

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Speaker 2: to quote respect human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the

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Speaker 2: freedom of conscience, religion, or belief for all without distinction

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Speaker 2: to races.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh huh.

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Speaker 4: He's literally the guy who's in a room and he's like,

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Speaker 4: we should kill everyone, and then he walks out and

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Speaker 4: comes back in another door and goes.

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Speaker 1: Killing is bad, the killing must stop. It's like deal

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Speaker 1: with me. O. J was like, I'm gonna find the

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Speaker 1: real killer. Yes, yes, we gotta find this guy. He's

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Speaker 1: yet out there.

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Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger doesn't go to DC anymore because he might

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Speaker 2: run into the man who ordered the carpet bombing of Lao.

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Speaker 2: We are all trying to find a guy who did this.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to leave till we find out which

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Speaker 1: son of a bitch is behind this.

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Speaker 2: Now there is, however, one huge titanic achievement that even

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Speaker 2: the most hardened critics have to give Kissinger. He restored

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Speaker 2: diplomatic relations between the United States and China. Now this

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Speaker 2: is a huge deal, no matter how you slice it.

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Speaker 2: For a brief primer, China had them a big old

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Speaker 2: civil war between the communists who won and the nationalists

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Speaker 2: who we backed, who we were called like, you know, democrats, republicans,

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Speaker 2: whatever like called democratic forces. They had you know them

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Speaker 2: a dictator, as it always is. He was a dude

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Speaker 2: named Chang Kai Shek, and yeah, wins. In nineteen forty nine,

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Speaker 2: Shang Kai Shek and his forces take all the gold

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Speaker 2: they can carry, and they flee to Taiwan. And for

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Speaker 2: the next thirty years, the United States refuses to acknowledge

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Speaker 2: the legitimacy of the Chinese state and deal with it directly,

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Speaker 2: in one of the most unhinged decisions in the history

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Speaker 2: of US foreign policy, decades of presidents pretend Taiwan is

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Speaker 2: the real China. Like Taiwan has a permanent seat on

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Speaker 2: the UN Security Council, that is China's seat, but Taiwan

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Speaker 2: is you can look on.

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Speaker 1: A map an bitting, it's smaller.

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Speaker 2: It is somewhat smaller than actual China.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're doing. It's like what we're doing with Venezuela.

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Speaker 2: No yah, yeah, it's like yeah, wreck, like that guy

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Speaker 2: is the president nor yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right yeah.

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Speaker 2: And it's one of those things like you don't have

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Speaker 2: to be a fan of Mao to recognize this as stupid,

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Speaker 2: Like Mao is in the head of a government that

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Speaker 2: is this basically a whole continent, and you're just pretending

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Speaker 2: he's not, and that's nuts.

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Speaker 1: Has no land.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's craziness, it's stupid. Yeah. And in fairness again,

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Speaker 2: because we're about to talk about like Kissinger had nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with this, right, Kissinger is not why we

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Speaker 2: refuse to recognize the existence of the Chinese government. This

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Speaker 2: is a dumb thing that when he comes into power,

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Speaker 2: he and Nixon are both very astutely recognized as a

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Speaker 2: dumb thing, and they don't want this to continue, and

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Speaker 2: it is It is hard to overstate how dangerous this

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Speaker 2: state of affairs is. For one reason, after Stalindize in

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty three, relations between the USSR and mouse China

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Speaker 2: steadily decline in nineteen sixty four, the year China conducts

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Speaker 2: their first successful nuclear tests, diplomatic relations break down between

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Speaker 2: both communist nations. So now you have three massive empires,

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Speaker 2: all of whom are armed with nukes, none of whom

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Speaker 2: are directly talking to each other. Oh, this is a

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Speaker 2: bad situation, and Kissinger does recognize how dangerous the status

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Speaker 2: quo is. Now in nineteen sixty nine, China and the

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Speaker 2: Soviet Union have a series of border skirmish their soldiers

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Speaker 2: are shooting at each other, Moscow threatens to start dropping nukes,

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Speaker 2: and for a time the Chinese government conducts its affairs

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Speaker 2: from underground bunkers. So again, very reasonable that Nixon and

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Speaker 2: Kissinger are like, well, should probably have some way to

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Speaker 2: fucking call these people on the goddamn phone, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: this seems bad. Let's just get a phone. Let's get

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Speaker 2: a fucking phone. You would think it would be that simple, Dave,

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Speaker 2: But we're going to talk for about an hour and

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Speaker 2: ten minutes about how it's not. So. By the time

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one comes around, Nixon and Kissinger were also

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Speaker 2: both looking for a major diplomatic coup that could distract

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Speaker 2: from the fact that they hadn't quite managed to end

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Speaker 2: that whole Vietnam War thing, and it had in fact

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Speaker 2: made it all very much worse. There's also some rational

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Speaker 2: self interest in here, you know, whatever else you can

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Speaker 2: say about them, I don't think either of these men

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Speaker 2: want to die, and they recognize like, well, this could

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Speaker 2: cause a nuclear war that ends all life on Earth,

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Speaker 2: including us. We should probably deal with this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they finally realized that life is actually has

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Speaker 1: purpose once it's there. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's also one of those this is getting a little

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Speaker 2: off topic, but like people talk about, you will see,

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Speaker 2: at least on the right people say like, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: if the nationalists had won the Chinese Civil War, a

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Speaker 2: lot less people would have died. And it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: the specific things Mao did that killed a lot of

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Speaker 2: people wouldn't have been done. But if Chang Kai shek

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Speaker 2: is in charge of China and like, while China is communist,

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Speaker 2: they almost get in a nuclear fight with the USSR.

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Speaker 2: Do you think they're like right wing Chang Kai Shek

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Speaker 2: led China is less likely to have a nuclear fight with.

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Speaker 1: The Soviet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what is it like if they're not on the

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Speaker 2: same ideological side. Yeah, people don't talk a lot about

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Speaker 2: the fact that the USSR and communists China nearly nearly

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Speaker 2: nuked each other, just while USSR.

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Speaker 1: Also and also mal killed landlords.

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Speaker 2: So are those people, well, yeah, some of them are

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Speaker 2: were landlords. It's not the landlords we're complaining about. It's

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Speaker 2: the you know, the people who didn't have grain. But

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Speaker 2: that's a story for a completely different set of days.

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Speaker 2: At this point in time, you've got two countries that

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Speaker 2: should three country that should all be talking on the

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Speaker 2: basis that they all individually have the ability to end

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Speaker 2: all life on earth, and they're not. And Kissinger is like,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I can get in here. You know,

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Speaker 2: I can make this work. I can make this work.

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Speaker 2: And also it'll help us win an election. So it

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Speaker 2: just so happens that nineteen seventy one is also a

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Speaker 2: time in which China is willing to sit down with

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Speaker 2: the United States. Maw wants us help negotiating with the Soviets,

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Speaker 2: which is very strange and like the does not make Yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Can't talk to these guys. I can't talk to them.

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Speaker 1: You know, I need someone who else, can't talk.

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Speaker 2: To these Nixon, Ye, you love communists, get in here,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's just the you've got like the way

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Speaker 2: the Cold War is portrayed from the thousand yard view

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Speaker 2: to people like watching the propaganda of whatever state, and

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Speaker 2: then you've got like Mao being like, hey, Nixon, I

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Speaker 2: need your help to deal with these Soviets. I need

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Speaker 2: a rational partner, and being like you're drug. You know

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Speaker 2: who's gonna get me? Since me Richard Millhouse Nixon the

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Speaker 2: election in seventy two, MAUSEI.

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Speaker 1: Dug, it's so crazy, it is. It is weird politics, and.

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Speaker 4: This is almost it's almost like there's only there's only

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Speaker 4: three people in the world.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so this is uh you know Nixon.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Once.

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Speaker 2: Nixon is very much down to talk with China, but

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Speaker 2: it is not that simple because since the diplomatic situation

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Speaker 2: has been done for so very long, there aren't like

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Speaker 2: US diplomats in China that we can like send a

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Speaker 2: message through, right like you literally don't have those ties.

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Speaker 2: So the US does have ways of communicating with the

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Speaker 2: Chinese government. They're through back channels though, because you can't

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Speaker 2: admit publicly that you're doing it because Taiwan is your

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Speaker 2: ally and Taiwan doesn't want to acknowledge that the Chinese

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Speaker 2: government is legitimate government, very dumb. One of the back

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Speaker 2: channels is through the leader of Communist Romania, Nikolai Chichesku

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Speaker 2: and the other great guy, Oh, Nikolaia is not the

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Speaker 2: bad guy of this story.

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Speaker 1: Weesco is your hero. Things are not Shad not your hero.

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Speaker 2: But let's call them a benign force in the specific

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Speaker 2: in se when is your straight man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The other is through the military dictator of Pakistan, General

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Speaker 2: Agha Mohammad ya Ya Khan. Now we should probably talk

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Speaker 2: a little bit of history here. In nineteen forty seven,

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Speaker 2: the British gave up ruling over the Indian subcontinent finally.

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Speaker 2: As a rule, whenever colonial powers leave their former possessions,

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Speaker 2: they attempted to set up states based on their pre

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Speaker 2: existing alliances and racial biases. This is why we have,

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Speaker 2: for example, the entire modern map of the Middle East.

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Speaker 2: In this case of the Indian Subcontinent, what had once

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Speaker 2: been a colony was split into India and Pakistan. India

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Speaker 2: is obviously Hindu majority, in Pakistan is a Muslim majority nation. Now,

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Speaker 2: if you know your English colonialists, you know they're not

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Speaker 2: very good at maps. So the BRIT's divvying up the

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Speaker 2: sub continent decide that Pakistan should include two huge chunks

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Speaker 2: of land separated by more than one thousand miles of India.

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Speaker 2: West Pakistan is the Pakistan we know and love today, right,

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Speaker 2: classic Pakistan, like the Yeah, East Pakistan is like the

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Speaker 2: new Coke of Pakistan, except for now it's Bangladesh, right,

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Speaker 2: But at the time Bangladesh is East Pakistan. And there's

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Speaker 2: just like a whole fuckload to India in between the two,

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Speaker 2: which is there's like a line that Pakistani people will

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Speaker 2: say at the time that like East and West Pakistan

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Speaker 2: are only united by religion, the English language, and Pakistan Airlines,

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Speaker 2: and by far, Pakistan Airlines is the strongest of the three.

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Speaker 1: Cool England once again, I mean just playing guy, Yeah, really, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what do you say? We put a blindfold on and

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Speaker 1: they're trying to pin the taan on this junkie.

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Speaker 2: And the fact that Indian partition, that England partitions India

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Speaker 2: at all, is a humanitarian crisis on an incomprehensible scale.

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Speaker 2: As many as two million people died, often as the

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Speaker 2: result of horrific racial or religious violence.

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Speaker 1: And Henry Kissing just hearing that, like, hold on, I'm

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Speaker 1: getting hard. I can do better. That's nothing, baby, beat

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Speaker 1: those rookie numbers a week where do I send congratulations called.

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Speaker 2: Ten to twenty millionaire displaced. But even though East and

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Speaker 2: West Pakistan are supposed to be united by faith, there's

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Speaker 2: like massive ethnic divides, right, Like they're not. The fact

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Speaker 2: that they're all ostensibly Muslim does not mean anything, because

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Speaker 2: like they're completely different parts of the world with completely

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Speaker 2: different chunks of history.

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Speaker 1: Right, And at least America learns this lesson. Yes, thankfully

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Speaker 1: we get this right.

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Speaker 2: You know, by the time we get into Pakistan, we're

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Speaker 2: done with the stupid stuff. We're faking a vaccine drive

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Speaker 2: in order to steal people's blood. That's right, they're good guys. Hey, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're good guys.

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Speaker 1: Are back. I know how to fix this. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, here's the Smithsonian magazine kind of laying out

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Speaker 2: the relationship between East and West Pakistan. By the time

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Speaker 2: Kissinger and Nixon take office, with most of the ruling

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Speaker 2: elite having immigrated westward from India, West Pakistan was chosen

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Speaker 2: as the nation's political center. Between nineteen forty seven and

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy, East pakist Stan had only twenty five percent

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Speaker 2: of the country's industrial investments and thirty percent of its imports,

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Speaker 2: despite producing fifty nine percent of the country's exports. West

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00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,119
Speaker 2: Pakistani elites saw their Eastern countrymen as culturally and ethnically inferior,

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Speaker 2: and an attempt to make Urdu the national language less

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Speaker 2: than ten percent of the population of East Pakistan had

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Speaker 2: a working knowledge of Urdu was seen as further proof

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Speaker 2: that East Pakistan's interests would be ignored by the government.

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Speaker 2: Making matters worse. The powerful, powerful Bolas cyclone hit East

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Speaker 2: Bangladesh in November of nineteen seventy, killing three hundred thousand people.

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Speaker 2: Despite having more resources at their disposal, West Pakistan offered

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Speaker 2: a sluggish response to the disaster. As French journalist Paul

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Speaker 2: Dreyfus said of the situation, over the years, West Pakistan

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Speaker 2: behaved like a poorly raised, egotistical guest, devouring the best

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Speaker 2: dishes and leaving nothing but scraps and leftovers for East Pakistan. Well,

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Speaker 2: it's not cool, it's not great, it's not great. And

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Speaker 2: Pakistan's military is what's in charge, right, It's a military dictatorship.

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Speaker 2: They run everything and they are hyper focused on India,

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Speaker 2: who is their primary geopolitical rival. In nineteen sixty five,

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Speaker 2: Pakistan attempts to invade Kashmir, sparking a vicious conflict. And

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Speaker 2: I'm not giving you the whole detail of the conflict

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Speaker 2: between India and Pakistan. Please don't take this as me

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Speaker 2: throwing all of the blame on one side or the other.

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Speaker 2: This is just like the bearest Cliff's notes, because we

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Speaker 2: have a lot to cover in this episode, and the US,

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Speaker 2: it's worth noting, had been selling arms to both countries

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Speaker 2: in nineteen six Yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Know, America, Yes, strange. Come on, Sosh, our history is

390
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Speaker 1: so different.

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Speaker 2: Lbj's administration was forced by public outcry as a result

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Speaker 2: of this, to issue an arms embargo on both nations.

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Speaker 2: Pakistan saw the embargo was unfairly harming them, and as

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Speaker 2: a result, there was bad blood among the high command

395
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Speaker 2: towards the Democratic Johnson administration. By the time Kissinger and

396
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Speaker 2: Nixon are in the White House, the president of Pakistan

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Speaker 2: is again this guy ya Ya Khan. We'll just call

398
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Speaker 2: him Yayah because it's fun to say, Yes, Yaya, I

399
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 2: thought to say. He took power in March of nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty nine by forcing out another general and institute martial law.

401
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 2: Kissinger Runs once wrote of him, yah Ya is tough,

402
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 2: direct and with a good sense of humor. He talks

403
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Speaker 2: in a very clipped way. Is a splendid product of

404
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 2: Sandhurst and affects a sort of social naivete, but is

405
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,239
Speaker 2: probably much more complicated than this.

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Speaker 1: Now.

407
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Speaker 2: Sandhurst is like the British Royal Military Academy. It's like

408
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Speaker 2: a broadly speaking British West Point. Yahya affected an English air.

409
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 2: He carried like a swagger stick. He dresses like he's

410
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Speaker 2: a British officer. He acts like he's a British officer.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: He is also a raging alcoholic. One Akistani politician noted

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Speaker 2: he starts with Kognak for breakfast and continues drinking throughout

414
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Speaker 2: the day night, often finding him in a sodden state.

415
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Speaker 1: Nice Soak. He's always.

416
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Speaker 2: Just a drunk dude who always carries a stick for

417
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Speaker 2: hitting horses.

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Speaker 1: It's very Yeah, I mean Church will drink a fuck

419
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Speaker 1: tod too, right, I mean yes, absolutely. It is one

420
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Speaker 1: thing about JFK.

421
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Speaker 2: Was on meth for a decent chunk of his early presidency.

422
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Speaker 1: Oh wow, so great.

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Speaker 2: It's we're like when we point out that a guy

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Speaker 2: like Yahya is drunk. It is not to contrast him

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Speaker 2: with Western leaders. Why don't you just some kind of

426
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Speaker 2: fart drunk I think, I think what's his name, the

427
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Speaker 2: guy who came after Nixon but not right after Carter

428
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Speaker 2: probably pretty sober in the White House.

429
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Speaker 1: Yeah, but his brother was making his brother, Billy was like,

430
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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I'll drink from German.

431
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Speaker 2: No problem, Oh, Billy, Billy Carter should have been the

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Speaker 2: president that we would have gotten some shit done.

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00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 1: Honestly, I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that different trajectory.

434
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 1: Let's see what heck cow bad, fuck it, fuck it,

435
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: let's dance.

436
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy, Yahya decides to hold an election which

437
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 2: is meant to be more for show than anything else. Right,

438
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: it's this thing you do because he's Pakistan is definitely

439
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 2: India is a neutral country. They're not on the side

440
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 2: of this you need or the US and the stupid

441
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: Cold War thing. They're very intelligently like, what does it

442
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 2: benefit us to pick one side?

443
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 1: Like fuck that stuff.

444
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 2: But they also because India's got much more of a

445
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 2: socialist especially early on, is much more of a socialist government,

446
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 2: there's a lot of distrust from them. In the United States,

447
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 2: and Pakistan really leans on that to be buddy buddy

448
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 2: with the United States more and one of the ways

449
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 2: as part of like his attempts to get closer and

450
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: closer to the US because he wants arms like everybody

451
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 2: who gets buddy buddy with the US. Yah Yah decides

452
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: to hold an election because we love seeing people have elections.

453
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: We don't really care how they go, but we like

454
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 1: seeing them.

455
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: You know, it's sport. It's sport. Yeah, So he's allowed.

456
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: He has this election and his plan is to like

457
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 2: basically rig it so that you know, it doesn't mean anything,

458
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 2: It doesn't take any power away from the military. But yeah,

459
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 2: Yah is not good at anything. This is an important

460
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 2: thing to know. He's really bad at everythig he does.

461
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 1: That breakfast Kanyac had anything to do with.

462
00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 2: This probably might have been a good question. So this

463
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 2: election gets out of his hands immediately. East Pakistan is

464
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 2: much larger than West Pakistan, and while West Pakistan's votes

465
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: are split between parties like there's a bunch of different

466
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 2: conflicting political parties, nearly everyone in East Pakistan gets in

467
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: line behind the same party, the Awami League. They're big

468
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 2: thing is they want autonomy from West Pakistan, you know,

469
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 2: and they're very angry at like the fact that they're

470
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 2: getting fucked over by the West. So the West, which

471
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 2: is doing the fucking over, has a bunch of minor

472
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: shit they're wabbling over. The East is just united behind

473
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 2: let's stop getting fucked over. And as a result, they

474
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: get a shitload of people elected in this massive block

475
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: and they come to it's enough that they will completely

476
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 2: dominate elector like the Parliament of Pakistan because of like

477
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: how well this election goes for them. Yeah yah does

478
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 2: not like this, and rather than allowing the newly elected

479
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 2: assembly to sit, he cancels their first meeting and declares

480
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 2: martial law. Nice, yeah, ryot's follow The leader of the

481
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: Owami League, a guy named Sheik Mujhbur Rahman I, apologize

482
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 2: for what is surely a mispronoiation, declared a civil disobedience movement.

483
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: It was into this volatile situation that Henry Kissinger stepped

484
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 2: in the spring of nineteen seventy one. Oh good now,

485
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 2: He and Nixon had pretty good relations with West Pakistan's government,

486
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 2: which is at this point, you know, just ya ya.

487
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: They were loath to trust India since it was non aligned.

488
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 2: Nixon also was very racist and hated the fact that

489
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 2: India's democracy was popular among Americans while the country re

490
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: maintained close ties with the USSR. He once told ya

491
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 2: ya quote, there is a psychosis in this country about India. Now,

492
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 2: A big part of Nixon's hatred of India is that

493
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 2: it's led by a woman in dearra Gandhi. Oh yeah,

494
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 2: we'll be talking more about that in a second. Yaya,

495
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 2: on the other hand, is one of the few people

496
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 2: on planet Earth that Richard Nixon comes to consider as

497
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 2: a friend. One of Nixon's one of Kissingers. Yeah, they're

498
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 2: both trunk assholes.

499
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: They don't remember the friendship, but god was it important

500
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: to too.

501
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: One of Kissinger's aides later said of the situation. They

502
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 2: liked him. He was a soldier, he had stye, He

503
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 2: was kind of a jaunty guy. Uh this this aide.

504
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 2: Hodgkinson admits that Yaya was not very smart, but says

505
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 2: that for Nixon and Kissinger, he was a man's man.

506
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: He wasn't some woman running a country.

507
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: Right. It sounds like they're talking about how people talk

508
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: about Yelson. Yeah, right, he's a man's man.

509
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: As he sees the Secret Service is tracking him down

510
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 2: drunk in the middle of DC.

511
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Yeltsin, who like was passed out on the plane.

512
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: I forget he was supposed to meet and he passed

513
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: out on the plane and they were like, Boris, Boris,

514
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: and He's.

515
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: Like, no, notes, Boris. I Look if if if we

516
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 2: had kept every world leader after that point to the

517
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 2: standards of drunkenness that Yeltsin set, we wouldn't be having

518
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 2: this war right now, I'll tell you that much.

519
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: Now.

520
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 2: We might have had other wars well.

521
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: In the middle of the night too, and he'd be like,

522
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: drop the nuke, you know, and they'd be like, buddy.

523
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: Like the next day he'd be like, I don't remember

524
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: what I said. They're like, thank god.

525
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to institute a mandatory drink minimum for

526
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 2: all elected leaders in this.

527
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: Country, George Bush, sobriety did not help.

528
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 2: If you can't force term limits, you can force liver cancer.

529
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: Yes, can We can brute force our way into getting

530
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 1: him out office after a year or two. Hey, do

531
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: you know who else can force liver cancer? Oh?

532
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 2: Well, we are sponsored by stolich Naya vodka, which is

533
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: now illegal in several states for reasons difficult to exclude

534
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: it about.

535
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: It's remarkable. Yeah, it's just how we so dumb? It's

536
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 1: we're so dumb.

537
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 2: It's amazing that in this like deeply ugly and complicated

538
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 2: situation where large numbers of people are suffering, Americans recognize

539
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: that the right thing to do is destroy bottles of vodka.

540
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: Not amazingly, the country is involved in the conflict there.

541
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: They're taking Finnish vodka and just throwing it into the streets.

542
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: Great country. Here's some other ads.

543
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: Ah, we're back man man ads.

544
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: So this is not a Nixon mini series, but in

545
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 2: order to talk about the friendship, the deep and abiding

546
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: love that the two men had, there is an incredible

547
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 2: paragraph from the book The Blood Telegram by Gary Bass

548
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 2: that I'm going to read now. Despite all his global FaceTime,

549
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: Nixon was a solitary, awkward, reclusive man. Kissinger who could

550
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: not bring himself to say that he was fond of

551
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: the president once famously asked, can you imagine what this

552
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: man would have been had somebody loved him?

553
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: Oh? My god, that's kind of Kissinger.

554
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: That's the saddest thing I can imagine, being like, nobody

555
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: really loved.

556
00:28:53,520 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: If only someone had loved this man, can you imagine?

557
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 2: Nixon's only true friend was Babe Riboso, a Florida banker.

558
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: He said, it doesn't come natural to me to be

559
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: a buddy buddy boy.

560
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: Even H. R.

561
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: Haldeman, the White House Chief of staff, worried that the

562
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: Boss was too much in his own head and once

563
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: tried to find the President a friend, tracking down an

564
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: oil man whom Nixon had reportedly liked in his Los

565
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 2: Angeles days, and him in a bogus White House gian.

566
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: Okay, listen, listen, listen. The movie needs to be written.

567
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: It's like driving Miss Daisy, but with a body count. Yeah,

568
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: I love you, I love you man with war crimes. Yeah. Okay.

569
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 2: So I'm James franco Is someone in this movie.

570
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 4: So I'm gonna I'm gonna work in the White House,

571
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 4: but I can't act like I'm there to meet him,

572
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 4: even though.

573
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,239
Speaker 1: That's my whole thing is That's right.

574
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I'm just gonna so so what so I

575
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 4: have to like try to get.

576
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: In, just drink with him, Just drink with him and

577
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,959
Speaker 1: eat pineapple and whatever he wants to do, just do it.

578
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 2: He's gonna want he's gonna want to put weird things

579
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 2: in pineapple. He's gonna get really drunken, cry on your shoulder.

580
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 2: He's gonna bomb several Southeast Asians.

581
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: Are you guys talking about?

582
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 6: Sorry, buddy, Okay, who's.

583
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: Your face?

584
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 7: My name is Bobby and I uh sorry, my my

585
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 7: pineapple and uh and for lunch, I have pineapple and

586
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 7: cottage cheese every day and it's it's uh, it just

587
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 7: got out of my.

588
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: Best is absolutely the best lunch you listen to.

589
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 4: That's all I yeah, in between in between just guzzling vodka.

590
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: That's generally what I have on my own cand of

591
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: camera somewhere. You guys fucking around what he's talking about?

592
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: I mean, just my heart is I feel them. I

593
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: need to lay down. I'm sorry.

594
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 4: Oh God, you're great. You're my favorite president. And I

595
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 4: want to thank you for killing so many people.

596
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: If you're hr haled them in right, how do you

597
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 2: recognize that you are trying to make he dates for

598
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: a man. It's bombing illegally multiple nations and not go

599
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: democracy and all politics as a sham. I must go

600
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 2: down in flames to take everyone out around me, because

601
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: that is the only justice that can be achieved.

602
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: Is like Nixon belongs in the bubble that the Good

603
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: Witch and the Wizard of Oz lives in. Yeah, like

604
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: he's on that level of It's like at some point

605
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: you have to wake up and be like, Okay, look,

606
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: these guys are bombing the shit out of countries, and

607
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: my goal is to find the president a buddy.

608
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I have to get him a friend.

609
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: I'm looking.

610
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: I'm trying to get him a friend. He might do

611
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 2: something crazy if he doesn't have any god a crazy

612
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: I just it's great.

613
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: It's just it's just like you have a president who

614
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: doesn't have a friend. Like, that's really tough. The president

615
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: doesn't have a friend.

616
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: And that's a big part of why when it comes

617
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 2: to deciding who should be the US Internet to talk with,

618
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: maw Yah Yah wins out over Chichesku because Nixon likes Yeah. Yeah,

619
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,239
Speaker 2: you know, that's that's that's a big part of it.

620
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: Not the whole reason, but that's a big part of it.

621
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 4: Now, and again, let's just let's remind every but was great,

622
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 4: So I can't.

623
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: Believe that flawless flawless man. Also, by the way, great death.

624
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: If we are going to talk about it, pretty good.

625
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: I'll get punishing death a lot more.

626
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: I'll go so far to say most of the people

627
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: we name in these episodes could have handled a chou Chescu.

628
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, we have been a bad way for him

629
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: to go out.

630
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: So when it comes time to decide, yeah, so anyway

631
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: they go with Yai Yat. Now by nineteen seventy one, again,

632
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: spring of seventy one is when all of this political

633
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: stuff with East Pakistan's coming to head, these protests are happening.

634
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: You know, things are on the brink there of kind

635
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 2: of like a civil conflict. Kissinger has been the center

636
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: of US policy for three years at this point, right,

637
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: US foreign policy, and folks in d C. By seventy

638
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: one are amazed at the degree to which he has

639
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: centralized power. His junior Southeast Asia Aid sam Hoskin recalled,

640
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: the power was there, he was gathering it up. You

641
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: felt like you were at the political center of the universe,

642
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: he and the president. That was where the decisions were made.

643
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: What sounds like a democracy to me, baby. And you

644
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: know what, instead of getting away from that, let's just

645
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: replicate it forever.

646
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just do versions of this forever, but with

647
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: people who are well not. Yeah, let's just do versions

648
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: of this forever. I'm not even going to try to

649
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: quantify it.

650
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

651
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 2: At age forty eight, Kissinger was new enough to power

652
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: that he was noted at the time as being extremely

653
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: jealous of anyone who might be seen as a rival.

654
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: He focused obsessively on pleasing Nixon. Henry himself had no

655
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: particular biases against India or Indian politicians, at least not

656
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: compared to Nixon, but when he saw how racist his

657
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: boss was, he knuckled down and found his inner bigot.

658
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 2: He was successful enough that Nixon said of him, Henry

659
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: is my least pathological pro India lover around here.

660
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: God, good work, Henry. You did it, buddy, You won.

661
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: He won the worst thing.

662
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: In late nineteen seventy, Kissinger and ya Ya began to

663
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: make plans for a broker's secret meeting between the United

664
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: States and China as a thank you for his help.

665
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: In October of nineteen seventy, yah Yah got to visit

666
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: the White House in person, where Nixon agreed to sell

667
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 2: weapons to his country again. Now this is illegal because

668
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: there's an arms embargo which does not get lifted. But

669
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: they decide we'll just do it. It'll be a limited

670
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: violation of the I believe that there was a loophole

671
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 2: for the FFS.

672
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, he got drunk with me.

673
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: Born in Kanya. Quote from the Blood Telegram. Yah Yah

674
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 2: got a reward for his efforts in late in late

675
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: October nineteen seventy when he met Nixon in the Oval

676
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 2: Office at the White House and their last meeting before

677
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 2: the crisis erupted. Nixon began to sell weapons to ya

678
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: Ya again. And what was officially built is a one

679
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: time exception to the US arms embargo imposed on both

680
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: India and Pakistan in nineteen sixty five. It was the

681
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 2: kind of exception that demolishes the that embargo had already

682
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: been eroding under Johnson. But now Yaya secured a moderately

683
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: big haul, a harbinger of much larger ones likely to come.

684
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: The promised weapons included six F one to oh four

685
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: fighter planes, seven B fifty seven bombers, and three hundred

686
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: armored personnel carriers. You want to guess what's going to

687
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 2: be done with the weapons we send him?

688
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: Nothing?

689
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 2: Yep, that's right. Episode's done. All right, we all had fun.

690
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 2: In March of nineteen seventy one, mushibur who is the

691
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: he's like the guy the East Pakistani political leader, right,

692
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: who runs this party that wins the elections. He meets

693
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 2: with ya Ya and Dhaka, which is the capital of

694
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 2: East Pakistan, in an attempt to reach an agreement over

695
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: the elections. Ya Ya had just decided to ignore.

696
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: At first, like an agreement was already electorally with the voters.

697
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So at first Yaya's like, hey, we settled things great,

698
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 2: And then the very next day he has Mushiburg arrested

699
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: and sends sixty thousand soldiers into East Pakistan. Now, actually,

700
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: I say sins in. These guys had been slowly infiltrating

701
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: the country for weeks by air because you have to

702
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 2: like fly him in, right, they can't just like drive

703
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: anywhere because there's India in between the two. They embarked

704
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 2: on an operation called Searchlight. And I'm going to quote

705
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 2: now from an article in The New Yorker. Firing squads

706
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 2: spread out across East Pakistan, sometimes assisted by local collaborators

707
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: from his Lomist groups that had been humiliated in the elections.

708
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: In the countryside where the armed resistance was strongest, the

709
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: Pakistanian military burned and strafed villages, killing thousands and turning

710
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: many more into refugees. Hindus, who composed more than ten

711
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 2: percent of the population were targeted. Their unmuslimness ascertained by

712
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 2: a quick inspection underneath their clothing. Tens of thousands of

713
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,919
Speaker 2: women were raped in a campaign of terror. Bengali's also

714
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: murdered and raped Urdu speaking Muslims, whom they suspected of

715
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 2: being Fifth columnists for West Pakistan. Archer Blood, the US

716
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: consul general in Dhaka, among others, reported the slaughter of

717
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: professors and students at Dhaka University, an attempt to silence

718
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 2: the intellectual class who had eloquently articulated Bengali grievances. So

719
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: Archer Blood is in the Blood Telegram really goes into

720
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: detail about this guy. One of the very few cases

721
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 2: of a powerful state department or of a state department

722
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 2: official with some power who's like a genuinely good person.

723
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 2: Blood works all over for the state.

724
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: Evil name.

725
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: He does have the worst like Kissinger things.

726
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's like you should shoot fire arrows.

727
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 2: He has opportunities to be and like what are considered

728
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 2: more prestigious postings, including Greece, but he doesn't want to

729
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: be in Greece because it's a CIA backed dictatorship at

730
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 2: this point, and Bengal, you know, what becomes Bangladesh is

731
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: like he feels like I can do something there.

732
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: Right.

733
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 2: It's this place that has a lot of like legitimate problems,

734
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 2: but also there's this like burgeoning democratic movement and people

735
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 2: are like taking and he's renown in the area for

736
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 2: like being incredibly social with Bengali's you know, like his

737
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 2: kids make friends with local children who live around. They

738
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: invite them into their home and have slumber parties. Like

739
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 2: he's just like a like a nice person, right, and

740
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: they're not going to run.

741
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, who wants that? Guy?

742
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 2: Blood sends a telegram to Nixon and Kissinger. You know, Dave,

743
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: when we tweeted about this, you asked, will there be blood?

744
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 2: And I said there was going to be a blood telegram.

745
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 2: This is what that is. In the Blood Telegram, Archer

746
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 2: Blood attacks the Nixon administration for their deafening silence towards

747
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 2: the violence in Bangladesh and moral bankruptcy in the face

748
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: of what he termed a genocide. And this gets signed

749
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: by every diplomatic official who's in who's in Dhaka. This

750
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: enrages Nixon, and Kissinger soothed his boss by saying that

751
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 2: Consolan Daka doesn't have the strongest nerves, basically like, oh,

752
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: he's just he's just getting scared by a little massacre

753
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 2: of all of the students and professors at the university.

754
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: This guy, huh ca't.

755
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 4: I cannot believe his last name is Bloodine.

756
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 2: Really would work better for my last name.

757
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: You know why My last name is about kissing and

758
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: he has blood. He is kissing guy kissing, I'm bloody

759
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: the use, Kissinger added.

760
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 2: And this is him now talking about what yah Ya

761
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: is doing in East Pakistan. Quote the use of power

762
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 2: against seeming odds pays off. He's very impressed by the

763
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 2: fact that that yah Yah gains control of East Pakistan

764
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: with just a few thousand soldiers. You know, he's really impressed.

765
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: So there's a bunch of people get angry. You know,

766
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 2: one of the big people who's most vociferous in the

767
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 2: US government against what's happening in East Pakistan is Ted Kennedy.

768
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: He is like a really like like takes this on

769
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: as like a banner crusade. So you know, once again,

770
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: people get very angry at the administration for what's going on.

771
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 2: Nixon tells Kissinger, quote the people who bitch about Vietnam

772
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: bitch about it because we intervened in what they say

773
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: is a civil war. Now some of the same bastards

774
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: want us to intervene here both civil wars. Is being like,

775
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: see how inconsistent they are.

776
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, what do you want, Henry Hood?

777
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 2: Do you think selling arms to one side and a

778
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 2: civil war might be intervening?

779
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: Yeah? Is that? Is it impossible? We're not going to

780
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: do that. We're not going to do that.

781
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 2: Oh ya ya needs how many more missiles?

782
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: Absolutely?

783
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 2: So, Kissinger writes up a policy paper in which he

784
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: urges the US to quote make a serious effort to

785
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 2: help Yaya end the war he'd started. And again, this

786
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: isn't even really a civil war. East Pakistan isn't like

787
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 2: mobilizing a vast army to fight for their independence. They

788
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 2: like voted and then soldiers to kill them all civil

789
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 2: It does like there start to be gorillas, and like

790
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 2: the Indian government starts sending weapons into like the gorilla

791
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 2: fighters in East Pakistan, but like the massacres start first.

792
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: Well and again I mean like to what you're saying there,

793
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: He held an election. I mean, this would be like

794
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: if David Cameron just yeah, he had tanks the day

795
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: after Brexit.

796
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, Oh god, that's.

797
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: Not what I would have.

798
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:06,240
Speaker 2: I meant marginally better. I guess Britain somehow colonizes the EU.

799
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Britain finally colonizes itself. I say that

800
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: you are well, we already bloody work for you now

801
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: you do, No, we already did with British. You will

802
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 1: work for the British now. Yeah.

803
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 2: And because of their Sandtrist educations, Gareth, your same fake

804
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:24,919
Speaker 2: accent can work for ya ya.

805
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: Lovely DESI Yeah, yeah, so cognac on the mind. I think.

806
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 2: Nixon responds to Kissinger's policy paper with a handwritten note

807
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 2: that he adds to the paper saying, don't squeeze.

808
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:41,760
Speaker 1: Ya ya at this time?

809
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: Do you want advice? Under normal circumstances?

810
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 1: In May?

811
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 2: In May Indian and this is you know, India. There's

812
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 2: a degree of legitimate concern among Indian people for like

813
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 2: the humanitarian crisis. There's also politically there's tons of refugees, right,

814
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: and so there's also this like very blunt political like, well,

815
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: we can't let this be happening. Because refugees are a

816
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: political problem for us. Right, there's states. You know, nations

817
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: don't make decisions ever because it's the right thing or

818
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 2: the wrong thing to do. But India is broadly speaking

819
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,399
Speaker 2: on the right side of this one. I think that's

820
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 2: fair to say so, because they're watching what's happening. India

821
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 2: starts massing troops on the border of East Pakistan in

822
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 2: order to potentially intervene, but they don't do anything yet.

823
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: Nixon tells Kissinger to cut off economic aid to India

824
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: if they intervene in this genocide, and Kissinger responds, quote,

825
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: the last thing we can afford to do and now

826
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: is to have the Pakistani government overthrown, given the other

827
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 2: things that we are doing. This is a clear reference

828
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: to their plans.

829
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: To meet with China.

830
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 2: Right, these very directly saying the reason we can't let

831
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 2: anything happen to Yaya's government, even though they're carrying out

832
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 2: a genocide, is because we need him to get to China.

833
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:53,959
Speaker 1: Now.

834
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: Kissinger follows this up with a soop to Nixon's racism,

835
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 2: calling Indians quote the most aggressive goddamn people are around there.

836
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: Again. I mean, it's obviously like the projection is obviously insane.

837
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: Nixon responds by telling Kissinger that what India needs is

838
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 2: a mass famine.

839
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: Kissinger notes.

840
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,399
Speaker 2: Kissinger does not disagree, and he follows up by saying

841
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 2: India has no right to invade another country. Quote, no

842
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 2: matter what Pakistan does in its territory.

843
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, I'm gonna take a five. You guys

844
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: can keep going. I'm gonna take a five. You guys

845
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 1: keep going. Now, that's fine. I'm gonna go outside, guy through

846
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: a wall.

847
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 2: Real concerned about national sovereignty.

848
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: Can you imagine someone doing something like that.

849
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can discuss, given the history of the United

850
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,439
Speaker 2: States as a whole, who gets to fairly complain about

851
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 2: violations of national sovereignty? But definitely not Henry Kissinger. Yeah, yes,

852
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 2: certainly not this guy. Right, It's like the fucking dudes

853
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: from the Bush administration yelling at like what Russia is

854
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: doing in Ukraine, not that the Russian actions in Ukraine.

855
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: It is like, no, not you, not you.

856
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of people we don't want to

857
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: hear from that.

858
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: You're absolutely not, crystal, So Kissinger assures his boss. Besides,

859
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: the killing has stopped, so it's fine. It had not

860
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: as a head said it is not.

861
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

862
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 2: In April of nineteen seventy one, which is, by the way,

863
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 2: the you know Archer Blood, the State Department official who

864
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 2: does everything possible to get the US to act, Kissinger

865
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: and Nixon fire him immediately. Got to get that guy

866
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: out of there, right, Yeah, out of there.

867
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: He's terrible. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Yeah.

868
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 2: Now, in April of nineteen seventy one, the same month

869
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 2: as the Blood telegram, and Nixon receives his official invitation

870
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: from the Chinese, from the Chinese government, and it's again

871
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 2: it's a secret invitation, right, you know, everything's because they

872
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: don't know that it's going to like where you can't

873
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 2: just have Nixon go to China first. You have to

874
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 2: send someone ahead of time to handle early negotiations. Wheel like,

875
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: it's a it's a whole process.

876
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: It's a preacher it. Yeah, it's a pret China.

877
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 2: You gotta yeah, you gotta lube up your China before

878
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 2: you get that dick. Yeah, before you get that dick

879
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 2: in there. Actually, yeah, that's right.

880
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: So I come.

881
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 2: Nixon gleeful tells Kissinger to go. Kissinger is the lube

882
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: in this situation. He tells Kissinger to go in secretly

883
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 2: and handle these early negotiations. He claims that this visit

884
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 2: to China they're planning will be quote a great watershed

885
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 2: in history, perhaps clearly the greatest since World War Two.

886
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 2: And that's what Nixon says. Kissinger, being a kiss ass,

887
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 2: responds by saying, no, no, it'll be the greatest since

888
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 2: the Civil War.

889
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 1: I mean, my god, I'm the idea that you're following

890
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: that up with no no better. Two. Yeah.

891
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: So July came and Kissinger set off for Southeast Ashan

892
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 2: what was built as a diplomatic tour of the region

893
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: but obviously is in reality a secret diplomatic mission code

894
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 2: named oh Boy, Oh No, Operation Marco Polo.

895
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: Oh fucks. I mean, at least just get a better

896
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: marketing person.

897
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 4: It's like Nixon Nixon, listen to me, Marco fresh water Marco.

898
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 2: So, Nixon visits India and then he flies to West

899
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: Pakistan and shortly after landing he's drinking.

900
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, fakes the stomach bugre tend to get his stomach pumped. No, no, no.

901
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: So he's like, you tell everybody I'm shitting, Yeah, tell

902
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: everyone I'm pooping. You've got a extry tell him, I'm

903
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: on the toilet shitting my brains out, so he cancels.

904
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 2: Kissinger cancels a couple of days of planned meetings, and

905
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 2: then while he's supposed to be sick, he boards in

906
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 2: secret a special plane and flies from Islamabad to Beijing.

907
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 2: Now I'm gonna quote from a write up in The

908
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 2: Daily Star, which was an Indian newspaper, that summarizes what

909
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 2: happens next. During Kissinger's China visit, both sides discussed a

910
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: variety of issues. Kissinger found Zowen Lai, who had studied

911
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 2: in France and Germany from nineteen twenty to nineteen twenty three,

912
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 2: to be a very articulate person who could converse even

913
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 2: in German Kissinger's mother tongue with ease. Both leaders agreed

914
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,240
Speaker 2: on recognizing Communist China as the only China and allotting

915
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 2: a permanent seat in the UN Security Council to Beijing

916
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 2: instead of Taiwan. The situation in the Indian subcontinent was

917
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: discussed in detail, on which they had similar views, with

918
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 2: both expressing their on wavering support to Pakistan. Zau briefed

919
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: Kissinger about the Indo Chinese border skirmishes and Brave and

920
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 2: blamed India for provacations. Both leaders had complete convergence of

921
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: views on Yahya's stand on the Bangladesh issue. Kissinger flew

922
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 2: back to Paris and reached Washington on July thirteenth. So, okay, good,

923
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 2: I mean again, like, yes, they should be talking.

924
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: Yes, this is fine.

925
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 2: Yes, if you're going to have a security council, Beijing

926
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 2: should probably sit on it rather than fucking Taiwan.

927
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: Also, it's just a shame that it needs to come

928
00:47:54,760 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 1: from mainly alcoholics. Yes, in order to make the right decisions,

929
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: it needs to come on the back of genocides and blackouts.

930
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like I feel like probably if the Nixon

931
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 2: administration had had just like announced publicly through like the

932
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 2: global media, we were wrong the United States and our

933
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: policy towards Taiwan, and we want to recognize China and

934
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 2: establish relationships with them and put them on the U.

935
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 2: If they just like said that and like a news thing,

936
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 2: probably China would have been like, oh, okay, this all

937
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,760
Speaker 2: kind of happened. But that also would have looked weak

938
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 2: by the standards of like politics, right, it would have

939
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: looked like begging. And so they're not going to do that.

940
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 2: They're going to do this instead because it looks all strong.

941
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 4: Yeah for the base, who you know, just wanted Vietnamese

942
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,959
Speaker 4: and can't buddy people to be fucking massacred so they'd

943
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 4: feel better, Like, yeah, it's the base, we're talking about.

944
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: Base on a blood and they fired him.

945
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 2: So when he got back to DC and sat down

946
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: with his boss, Kissinger excitedly relayed the story of the

947
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 2: Cloak and Dagger exercise week. He's very excited that he

948
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: got to deal with James Bond, he tells Kissinger, or

949
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 2: a Kissinger tells Nixon. Quote, yeah, yeah, hasn't had such

950
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 2: fun since the last Hindu massacre.

951
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 8: Oh, in the there needs you need to just like

952
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 8: bring in another I mean, Blood would have been a

953
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 8: good person, but there just needs to be a regular person.

954
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 1: Like, hey, I'm sorry, we can't talk like that. You

955
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: guys keeping really comfy with this language. It's really not okay. Yeah,

956
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: nobody says that.

957
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 2: Goddam, there has to be like some motherfucker cleaning up

958
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: Nixon's like puke in the corner.

959
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, just a janitor who just like quietly shakes

960
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 1: his head every time. Yeah to camera, Yeah, yeah, they've

961
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: got a gym in there. Yeah, so that the bartender,

962
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: the knowing bartender. Just imagine that coming out of your mouth.

963
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're you can't. It's not a joke when you

964
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 2: say that, while there's a genocide going on here hasn't genocide.

965
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 2: So that says a lot of just you celebrating a

966
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 2: guy killing people.

967
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: You realize how cool you got to be to them. Look,

968
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: I don't have a friend, but if I did so.

969
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: On July fifteenth, nineteen seventy one, Richard Nixon addressed the

970
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 2: United States and told everyone that Henry Kissinger had just

971
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: conducted a secret mission which had concluded with an agreement

972
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 2: for Nixon to travel to Beijing and negotiate. By this point,

973
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshi civilians were dead and more

974
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 2: than a million had been made refugees. India was edging

975
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 2: closer and closer to war over the whole matter, and

976
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 2: it was the considered opinion of the defense establishment that

977
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 2: they would win fairly easily. India had started arming the

978
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 2: Bengali guerilla fighters at this point, and during one meeting

979
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 2: on the matter, Nixon described Indians as quote a slippery,

980
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 2: treacherous people who would like nothing better than to use

981
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: this tragedy to destroy Pakistan.

982
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: Oh for fucks, I mean you can't even talk about it.

983
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 1: I mean it's like you can't evensation anymore. Yeah, it's

984
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:55,919
Speaker 1: just insane, not sense.

985
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, it's just so crazy.

986
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 1: This you know, this is imperialism, colonialist language. It's just

987
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 1: never faded. No, No, there's just always guys in power.

988
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: They've been talking like this is the fucking fifteen hundreds.

989
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: It's never stopped.

990
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 2: It's the I mean, this guy's not you couldn't really

991
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 2: call him in power, but it's that fucking journalist for

992
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: whoever talking about like Ukraine and like this is the

993
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: first war between civilizations, Like what the fuck?

994
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 1: Dude, Like, you know, it's quite different to see people

995
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: who are white and European do it. That feels quite different.

996
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,479
Speaker 1: And the way he's carefully that journalists you're talking about

997
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: the way he's carefully picking his language, and he's like,

998
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: you're like, wait, this is your.

999
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 2: Thoughtful version, this is your delicate statement. He cut the

1000
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 2: slurs out.

1001
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 3: You know.

1002
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was like, gotta be carefully, I'm gonna say

1003
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 1: some dirty words.

1004
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 2: Because Nixon and they absolutely say some slurs.

1005
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah.

1006
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 2: So the outcry domestically and internationally reaches a fever pitch

1007
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: at this point, kind of late summer in nineteen seventy one,

1008
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 2: and in August, the escalating crisis is India to sign

1009
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 2: a formal treaty of friendship with the Soviet Union. Anti

1010
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 2: communists Nixon included, considered this a disaster and as good

1011
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 2: as an end to India's neutrality, but condemning ya Ya

1012
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 2: or stopping the sale of US weapons to a country

1013
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 2: committing genocide, was not considered an option. Yahya had to

1014
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 2: be kept in power until the China trip was conclusively

1015
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 2: locked down. I'm going to quote it from the Blood Telegram.

1016
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 2: After a while after Kissinger returned from Beijing, he said,

1017
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 2: we cannot turn on Pakistan, and I think it would

1018
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 2: have disastrous consequences with China that after they gave us

1019
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: an airport, we massacre them. In this case, for Kissinger,

1020
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 2: massacre meant putting pressure on a government, not the actual massacres.

1021
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: I mean it, They've done so many massacres that massacres

1022
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: aren't massacres anymore.

1023
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the only thing Henry Kissinger ever described

1024
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 2: as a massacre, as people mean to Nixon's drunk genocide.

1025
00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 1: But ye, Nixon, Meanwhile, I was committing a genocide. That's good.

1026
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 2: That's good that you know what, Somebody make a Nixon

1027
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 2: themed gin cocktail the genocide.

1028
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: It should be red in color pineapple deaf harries a

1029
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: little bit of a little bit of your own puke

1030
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 1: from the first stimp.

1031
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 10: So.

1032
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 2: Also in August, George Harrison and Rabbi Shankar organized a

1033
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 2: benefit concert in New York supporting relief efforts in Bangladesh.

1034
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 2: Nixon brushed this off to Kissinger, saying, quote, Biafras stirred

1035
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 2: up a few Catholics, But you know, I think Biafraus

1036
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 2: stirred people up more than Pakistan, because Pakistan they're just

1037
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 2: a bunch of goddamn brown Muslims.

1038
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: For shake fucking christ. Ah. Yeah, we need to bomb

1039
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: the Beatles. Yeah, the Beatles, right, the only one we

1040
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 1: could cape his ringo. He seems like we could maybe

1041
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 1: shift him.

1042
00:53:53,480 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're bad again.

1043
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like you, you would expect and again,

1044
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: I mean, or at least in my head, at some point,

1045
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: you would expect someone to just be like, guys, what

1046
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: the fuckuck? And even if it didn't. Even if it

1047
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 1: didn't really change anything, it would at least change the

1048
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 1: casual language and races. Is just kind of tossed around,

1049
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 1: or someone would be like, Hey, you shouldn't be recording

1050
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: all this.

1051
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, boy, you shouldn't be recording all this.

1052
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 1: Dick. Hey, I'm gonna that's all. I'm gonna stop on this.

1053
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm noted the Nixon administration Nixon did.

1054
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 6: Nixon was like, I think we got a mall and

1055
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 6: it might be drunk me. I think the block outrads

1056
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,720
Speaker 6: recording us. We did a final war on night Nixon.

1057
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 2: On October twenty fifth, nineteen seventy one, the People's Republic

1058
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: of China was admitted to the u WIN as a

1059
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 2: permanent member of the Security Council. Again, there's seed to

1060
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 2: have been occupied for Taiwan by years. Taiwan gets like

1061
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 2: let out very unceremoniously, China gets put in place. The

1062
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 2: People's Republic of China. A representative celebrates with a vocal

1063
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 2: attack on quote American imperialists and their running dogs. But

1064
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 2: nobody took this seriously. It was generally referred to as

1065
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 2: firing by empty cannons. You know you're China you gotta

1066
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 2: get you gotta you gotta throw out your attack on

1067
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 2: the US. But like, you know, everybody's getting along at

1068
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 2: this moment. By November again, when we just talked about

1069
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 2: the guy who built that giant mountain sized cannon for Saddam,

1070
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 2: Like not long after this, the CIA is like illegally

1071
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 2: helping that arms designer subvert international treaties to sell cannons

1072
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 2: to China because China's you know, not on good terms

1073
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 2: with the uss R. It's all just like brinksmanship, political

1074
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 2: fuck rations that doesn't.

1075
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: Match up with some of the history in this country.

1076
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: That's strange.

1077
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 2: So yeah, this By November of nineteen seventy one, more

1078
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:48,800
Speaker 2: than ten million people had been made refugees by the

1079
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 2: violence in Bangladesh. Jeffrey Davis a doctor who was brought

1080
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 2: into the country by the U win later to perform

1081
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 2: late term abortions on rape victims. Again, this is like,

1082
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,720
Speaker 2: so part of what happens is the system mass rape

1083
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 2: by Pakistani soldiers of Bangladeshi women. The UN brings a

1084
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 2: doctor in afterwards to like perform these abortions on these

1085
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 2: rape victims. The estimate before this doctor comes in is

1086
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,399
Speaker 2: that between two hundred and four hundred thousand Bengali women

1087
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 2: had been raped, and Jeffrey Davis says, oh, it's way

1088
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 2: more than that. God, Oh my god, it's much more

1089
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 2: than that. The CIA estimates two hundred thousand civilians are

1090
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 2: murdered in this period. Given where the US stands on

1091
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 2: this issue, you might not want to trust the CIA's numbers.

1092
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: Now.

1093
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 2: The Soviet newspaper Pravda estimates some three million dead, which

1094
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 2: is also likely not entirely accurate, but is probably closer

1095
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 2: than the CIA's numbers. Credible low estimates of the death

1096
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 2: toll are over half a million. It is very likely

1097
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,359
Speaker 2: that between one and two million Bengalis were murdered. One

1098
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 2: and a half million is often what you will hear,

1099
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 2: probably pretty fair, although any kind of exact count is

1100
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 2: obviously impossible. But this is a jit aside on a

1101
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 2: Titanic scale.

1102
00:56:58,200 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 1: You know.

1103
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 2: In December, West Pakistan declared war on India. Remember yeah, yeah,

1104
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 2: is not good at things, So.

1105
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean he's again breakfast kanyak will do

1106
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: he's a crazy shit So their man declares war again.

1107
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: Yah yah declares war. That's right, many fun Yeah, yeah.

1108
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 2: Nixon and kissing your blame this on in Deira Gandhi.

1109
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: Oh, this is why I kind of a woman in India.

1110
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: It's going to be attacked.

1111
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 2: Nixon tells Henry that it makes your heart sick to

1112
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 2: see Pakistan be done so by the Indians.

1113
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: And after we have to go, after we've warned the bitch.

1114
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, I cut you off. Yeah, and after we

1115
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: have warned the bitch, I mean again, It's like you're

1116
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: not in a tavern. This is the fucking White House.

1117
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 4: Should we put that in a fresh an official press statement.

1118
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the in the morning. Oh, let's call

1119
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 1: her a whore. Then, let's just.

1120
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 2: Yah Yah proved to be as bad at war as

1121
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 2: he was good at being friends with Dick Nixon. The

1122
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 2: Indian military kurb stomps Pakistan. I cannot exaggerate the degree

1123
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 2: to which these guys get their asses handed to them.

1124
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 2: Within a week, it is clear that not only is

1125
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 2: West Pakistan going to lose the war, but Pakistan might

1126
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 2: not survive as a country as a result of how

1127
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 2: badly they're being beaten. Right, yeah, yeah, not good at anything.

1128
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 2: I want to quote now from a ride up by

1129
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 2: an Indian veteran of them, Oh, he's very good at drinking.

1130
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 2: He's really pretty good at drinking. Yes, what do you

1131
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 2: mean yet?

1132
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, knockout.

1133
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 2: So I want to quote now from a write up

1134
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 2: by an Indian veteran of the conflict for Indye TV,

1135
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 2: which is another Indian uh news periodical, on December eighth.

1136
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 2: This Pakistani defenses in East Pakistan were falling before the

1137
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 2: onslaught of the Joint Command of the Indian Army and

1138
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 2: Bangali Dashi Mukti Bahini liberation warriors. Richard Nixon and Henry

1139
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 2: Kissinger were busy plotting ways to change the tide of

1140
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 2: war or arrest it. Henry Kissinger, in a meeting with

1141
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 2: Richard Nixon and Attorney General Newton Mitchell, now to classified,

1142
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 2: said he has got a message for you to you

1143
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 2: from the Shah of Iran which says he can send

1144
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 2: ammunition to a beleaguered Pakistan. He is doing it now.

1145
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 1: What is good? I mean? I know we can help

1146
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: us here. The Shah of Iran the level of war

1147
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 1: to stop war.

1148
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, so another piece of ship we can bring in

1149
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 4: on this.

1150
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 2: The brilliant diplomat also revealed that Iran will send fighter

1151
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 2: planes to protect Jordan from Israel, while Jordan will send

1152
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 2: jets to Pakistan for the war effort against.

1153
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 1: India's Honestly, what is like It's how like an NFL

1154
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,919
Speaker 1: trade works. Yeah, how could you have thought this would work?

1155
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a it's a drunk game of risk. Yeah, yeah,

1156
00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: yeah it is. He's just wasted playing risk. The US

1157
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 1: National Security Advisor also expressed fear that India would attack

1158
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 1: West Pakistan in a major way after winning the war

1159
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 1: in the East. The Indian plan is now clear, this

1160
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 1: is Kissinger. They're going to move their forces from East

1161
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 1: Pakistan to the west. They will then smash the Pakistan

1162
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 1: landforces and air forces, annex the Pakistan occupied part of Kashmir,

1163
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: and then call it off Warrant Henry Kissinger. When this

1164
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: has happened, the centrifugal forces in West Pakistan would be liberated,

1165
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: but Lukastan and the Northwest Frontier will celebrate. West Pakistan

1166
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 1: would become a sort of intricate Afghanistan. So this is

1167
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 1: Aghanistan that's Henry's concern. So he insists this is enough

1168
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: of a disaster that the US has to send the

1169
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 1: Seventh Fleet into the Bay of Bengal in order to

1170
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 1: scare India. The seventh is headed by the USS Enterprise

1171
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: and is widely considered to be the most powerful naval

1172
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 1: force on Earth. This prompts the Russians to send a

1173
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 1: fleet in as well, and the world gets to live

1174
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: through another period of are we going to have a

1175
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: nuclear war? Kissinger, because he's real good at calming people down,

1176
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 1: encourages China to intervene against India and, in Nixon's words, quote,

1177
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: scare those goddamn Indians to death. China's like, do you

1178
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: maybe we should go back to the Taiwan thing? That

1179
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: actually seemed to be it's gonna be a little seemed

1180
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: to be pretty good. Actually that was working a little better,

1181
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: I think for you guys. Now you're in hell. Yeah.

1182
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 2: In the end, Kissinger's plan failed. India does not take

1183
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 2: his bait, and in late December, Pakistan surrenders to India

1184
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 2: East Pakistan because its own independent nation Bangladesh.

1185
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1186
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 2: Yah is forced out of office and placed under house arrest,

1187
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 2: where he suffers a stroke.

1188
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 1: So that's jeez, I'm gonna not you for coming back.

1189
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 1: But it's comeback, knyac kid. Oh you mean I can't leave?

1190
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: It'll be fine.

1191
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 2: So Kissinger claims, this whole state of affairs, how this

1192
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 2: all resolves, is a victory for the Nixon administration.

1193
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 1: Of course I announced.

1194
01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 2: He announces this by saying, congratulations, mister President, you saved

1195
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 2: West Pakistan.

1196
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: What time was it last night? You saved West pack Amazing?

1197
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: I mean it was a hero I mean two months

1198
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 1: congratulations being said. Amazing.

1199
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 2: Now, two months after the end of the war, Nixon

1200
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 2: makes his big visit to China. The media eats it up,

1201
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 2: and suddenly Nixon's re election campaign has something to hang

1202
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 2: their hats on, beyond claims that peace in Vietnam is

1203
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 2: going to happen one of these days. The taunt with

1204
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:33,760
Speaker 2: the Soviets. This announced soon after, right, they do like

1205
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 2: they're good thing. Obviously it's good. Like this happens, good

1206
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 2: things result from it. During a conversation later that year,

1207
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 2: Becassinger tells his boss, no one has yet understood what

1208
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 2: we did in India Pakistan and how we saved the

1209
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 2: China option, which we need for the bloody Russians. Why

1210
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 2: should we give a damn about Bangladesh.

1211
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 1: Well, there you go. That says that says it all right. Yeah,

1212
01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 1: nobody's congratulating us. On how good of a job we did. Yeah, well,

1213
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 1: I mean in their opinion and their track record of

1214
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 1: foreign policy, it's all about egg breaking, Yeah, you know,

1215
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 1: for whatever version of omelet they insist they're serving.

1216
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like, yeah, man, I agree us. You know,

1217
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:19,439
Speaker 2: Mawen fucking Kissing or Mawen Nixon should have sat down

1218
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 2: and talked like all of these conversations shouldn't happened to

1219
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 2: talk with Russia.

1220
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 1: Good.

1221
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 2: Feel like you didn't need to back a genocide to

1222
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 2: make that happen, you know, like that wasn't a necessary ingredient.

1223
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 4: It's it's easy to look back on a genocide and

1224
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 4: go was this right or wrong?

1225
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:36,440
Speaker 1: But when you're in the middle of a genocide, you're like,

1226
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 1: this seems pretty okay. I'm getting I'm getting a which

1227
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 1: genocider you are? How else can I talk to people?

1228
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 2: I'm having kognac with ya ya before flying the chat.

1229
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: Keep in mind, I'm good here. I'm pretty much blackout

1230
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 1: drunk for all. This pretty good for a guy who

1231
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 1: can't walk on a straight line.

1232
01:03:55,160 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's anyway, that's how Henry Kissinger made peace between

1233
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 2: the nuclear powers.

1234
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 4: Well on that one, I mean, it is the most chaotic, insane,

1235
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 4: fucking nonsense.

1236
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: It's just crazy. No, I really it is on a

1237
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 1: level where I mean, it's it's it's been hard to

1238
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 1: process the whole time, but now it's like it's normalized

1239
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 1: and you're seeing the version when they're sort of there,

1240
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 1: the training wheels have been taken off, how much they

1241
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 1: are actually doing and getting away with in way like again,

1242
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 1: I mean, just to have an adult in the room,

1243
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 1: but I mean they fire, you fire the adult, obviously,

1244
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: but it is on. It is I mean, it just

1245
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 1: is absolutely fucking preposterous that this is not well known

1246
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 1: about or even if it even if it is well known,

1247
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 1: how the fuck Kissinger keeps showing up over and o

1248
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 1: over again. Oh yeah, with all these people that people

1249
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 1: that people are sycophants for in our in our politics. No,

1250
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: I can never I.

1251
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 4: Can never get over the fact that Hillary Clinton was

1252
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 4: campaigning with him.

1253
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:16,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that people are like, oh, look who's back shady.

1254
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 2: One of the things that's so this doesn't really like

1255
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 2: mark on like the moral list of things that he

1256
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:25,280
Speaker 2: did wrong. But I just find it so shameful that like, again,

1257
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 2: you have all of these other people, like all of

1258
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 2: the folks we've talked about, like yeah, yeah, like Nixon

1259
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:30,960
Speaker 2: who do horrible things in her but are like also

1260
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 2: getting to like exercising power and like the big men

1261
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 2: and like you know, the the dudes that the like,

1262
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 2: I don't know, they're not like sycophants, whereas Henry is

1263
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 2: just sort of like sucking up to everyone around him

1264
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 2: in order to further war crimes. Which again, yeah, it

1265
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 2: doesn't isn't. It doesn't rate discussing on a moral level

1266
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 2: compared to everything else. It just is like that's the.

1267
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 1: Guy he is. Yeah, he's just like a power guy.

1268
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 1: He is. He's just like he is not I mean.

1269
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: And also, and I don't mean to keep beating this drum,

1270
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 1: but they're drunk.

1271
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I don't think Kissinger is, but Nixon for

1272
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 2: that's what I mean.

1273
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, yah is yeah, yeah, yeah is a

1274
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: Nixon is a Kissinger is not. And he's still like, ah,

1275
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 1: that's pretty good idea. Yeah, you know it to be

1276
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 1: like it would be like if you're around like like

1277
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 1: you're in a car ride to Florida with three drunk

1278
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: guys and they're just like, hey, well what did we

1279
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 1: drink last night? The one guys like I have a drink,

1280
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 1: but let's go to Florida.

1281
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:33,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, God, it's man and the blatant racism.

1282
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:36,479
Speaker 1: As far as like who you're willing to sacrifice, I mean,

1283
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 1: you know as usual kiss country where Yeah, you just

1284
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 1: you really do not give a fuck.

1285
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:44,959
Speaker 4: They really just literally do not care about anybody who's

1286
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 4: not They just don't care.

1287
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 1: Why why would they? I mean, if you're them, there's

1288
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 1: no referee in this game, So foul as much as

1289
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 1: you want, I'm just.

1290
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 4: Fucking to fucking you know, grow up with the Nazis

1291
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 4: right there and watch the Holocaust and then.

1292
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 1: Dave to be able to child his childhood. He didn't

1293
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 1: was not affected by this child, that's true. Sorry, no

1294
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 1: impact on going back to that, but that that again,

1295
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 1: we've we've sort of knocked that domino down. That did

1296
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:16,440
Speaker 1: not happen, like it never occurred. It didn't happen, clearly, Yes.

1297
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 2: You know that's why. Look, that's why he's fine with

1298
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 2: what's happening in Bangladesh. He knows it's not going to

1299
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 2: affect those kids.

1300
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: Five those who lived through history are doomed to repeat

1301
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 1: it because it was fine. Yeah, because it was fine.

1302
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 1: It was fine. Why because I said, so, yeah.

1303
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 4: Oh, anyway, I just I just typed in Kissinger's name

1304
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 4: in to Google, and the first thing that comes up

1305
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:42,200
Speaker 4: is you pile.

1306
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:43,880
Speaker 1: Oh god, what did he say?

1307
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:49,280
Speaker 4: Fucking we don't to settle the UK christis start at

1308
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 4: the end.

1309
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 1: I don't even want to know.

1310
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:56,439
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, still nonsense, Like, of course, yes, it would

1311
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 2: be great to start at the point where there's not

1312
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 2: a war, but that's not really helpful, right yeah, yeah,

1313
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 2: thanks buddy.

1314
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, whatever you know. Yeah, he's on the same thing.

1315
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's doing kisses like, well, it doesn't matter, like

1316
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 2: obviously when you say there's point things like the fucking

1317
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 2: nuclear disarmament where like you can find moments in history

1318
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 2: where he's right. It doesn't matter if he's right or

1319
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:23,599
Speaker 2: wrong about a specific issue, because we see what he

1320
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,639
Speaker 2: actually does, which is whatever it takes to keep himself

1321
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:29,200
Speaker 2: close to power. Like he doesn't believe anything to the

1322
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 2: extent that he's ever right or a part of something

1323
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 2: good like arms reductions. It's because that's the thing that

1324
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:37,160
Speaker 2: the people who he's sick of fans to want to do.

1325
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 2: And it doesn't matter that he supported the opposite thing

1326
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 2: for years, Like because he doesn't care.

1327
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's a parasite just looking for a hub.

1328
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. Like I don't give him

1329
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:47,839
Speaker 2: credit for anything.

1330
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, like it's funny.

1331
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 4: It's funny you say that because all these articles about

1332
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 4: what he said about Ukraine in twenty fourteen, so people

1333
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:57,639
Speaker 4: been going back to like he.

1334
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:00,840
Speaker 1: Said, and you're like, yeah, no, that guy's a fucking.

1335
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 2: If only he'd thought to start at the end of

1336
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 2: the war, if only we'd thought of that, Henry great point,

1337
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:08,559
Speaker 2: Henry Solid, We're gonna start, We're.

1338
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:10,160
Speaker 1: Gonna start to go fund me to get you bones.

1339
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh god, oh lord. If he doesn't die immediately, Obviously,

1340
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 2: him dying immediately is my primary hope. But I hope

1341
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 2: if he doesn't die immediately, he lasts long enough to

1342
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:27,240
Speaker 2: get sucked into one crypto scam. You know, just just

1343
01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:30,880
Speaker 2: one good cryptocurrency scam. Can we get that?

1344
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 1: At least I wanted to start his own crypto called

1345
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:43,600
Speaker 1: hank Bank Heck of America. I am noble blockchain. You

1346
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 1: could buy a piece of my skin.

1347
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 2: Each NFT represents an individual time Richard Nixon vomited into

1348
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:50,599
Speaker 2: my lap.

1349
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 1: I'm becoming NFT.

1350
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 2: Oh god, all right, well again plug anything here, I

1351
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 2: mean again, it's getting arder.

1352
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:06,280
Speaker 1: All right. We we are the doll Up and you

1353
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 1: can go to Dollar podcast dot com for to our information.

1354
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 1: We will be all over Australia and America this summer

1355
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 1: and and then you can go to my website which

1356
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 1: is Gareth Reynolds dot com for stand up data domestically

1357
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 1: and in Australia, and go to Parasite dot com, which

1358
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:23,320
Speaker 1: is just pictures of a Kissinger.

1359
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:27,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, go to his parasite. Go to his parasite.

1360
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:30,439
Speaker 2: I have a novel, just google a k Press after

1361
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 2: the Revolution. It's it's for pre order now you can

1362
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:34,360
Speaker 2: still get it signed.

1363
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:36,160
Speaker 1: Every copy.

1364
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 2: I will spit on Henry Kissinger's grave once when he dies,

1365
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 2: so you can make me.

1366
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 1: Nob's getting woozy. Everybody hurry.

1367
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:52,440
Speaker 2: Look like like all politicians, I won't entirely keep my promises.

1368
01:10:52,479 --> 01:10:54,360
Speaker 2: Some of that spit's going to be pissed, you know,

1369
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:55,840
Speaker 2: some of it's going to be pissed.

1370
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 1: Here we go, already breaking already breaking it. YEA thought

1371
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 1: I knew you. Oh God.

1372
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 2: The doll Up Crossover Special event Week three of our

1373
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:18,599
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger series and and the stress is getting to everyone.

1374
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:21,760
Speaker 2: David and Gareth fighting viciously.

1375
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 3: I'm not.

1376
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been quite calm. I just I just

1377
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 1: when I'm attacked.

1378
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 2: Like Henry Kissinger, I am attempting to maintain a balance

1379
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:33,080
Speaker 2: of power between you and the state of Detan.

1380
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:35,360
Speaker 1: You get it. You have the answers.

1381
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:39,640
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, our podcasts are now bombing Cambodia.

1382
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:46,400
Speaker 1: Finally show that I relate to Oh boy, well this

1383
01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:47,720
Speaker 1: is this is week three?

1384
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:51,000
Speaker 2: Can y'all believe we're already in the home stretch of

1385
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 2: of this this series?

1386
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 1: Is it week three? Yes? Wow? Episodes for three weeks.

1387
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 2: I know most podcasts don't make all of the guests

1388
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:03,920
Speaker 2: live together, but they do it.

1389
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 1: What do they? Yeah, I think with like like the internet.

1390
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to look that up in my dictionary. Yeah. Well,

1391
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:13,479
Speaker 1: I've enjoyed our time here. I've really like, I don't

1392
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 1: I don't want to leave, so I mean, but yeah,

1393
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:17,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I you know, we should. I got to

1394
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:19,439
Speaker 1: go back to it as a family.

1395
01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 2: We could do another couple of episodes on Henry Kissinger,

1396
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 2: but you know, just do one a year for the

1397
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:26,719
Speaker 2: next like five years.

1398
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:30,120
Speaker 1: There we just do. We'll just be like a reunion show. Yeah,

1399
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:34,360
Speaker 1: what's Henry Kissinger revival. Yeah, there's probably more chapters. Yeah,

1400
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 1: hopefully just dead soon. Hopefully dead is what we'll do.

1401
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: I don't think that. I don't think that ends it.

1402
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,040
Speaker 1: Somehow I feel like that's not gonna be enough.

1403
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:44,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll be doing the episode about how Henry Kissinger

1404
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 2: brings the Army of Hell back through a portal, Yeah,

1405
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 2: to somehow fight on both sides of the Ukrainian War.

1406
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 1: And the Army of Hell has been misled as to

1407
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:56,439
Speaker 1: the rationale. They're like, you said that there was going

1408
01:12:56,479 --> 01:13:00,280
Speaker 1: to be a lot more slavery. Here, follow me, come

1409
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:06,600
Speaker 1: with me. The w mds Henry Kissinger. I should have

1410
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:11,000
Speaker 1: studied Kissinger's accent before this totally, But do you have

1411
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 1: an ear for accents?

1412
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 2: It's all right, this will be so iconic that it

1413
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 2: will retroactively become Henry Kissinger's accent, kind of like the

1414
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 2: Nazis are now British.

1415
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 1: I do one, I do one, just one stranger accent.

1416
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 1: I nail one thing. It's really good. Perfect.

1417
01:13:30,479 --> 01:13:32,120
Speaker 2: Wow, it's like we're there. It's like we're in the

1418
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 2: Oval office. I am excited for when what's his name?

1419
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:38,880
Speaker 2: The guy who did vice that director? What's his name?

1420
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:43,200
Speaker 2: I'm talking about the Cheney, Yes, Adam mckadam. When Adam

1421
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:45,880
Speaker 2: McKay does his Kissinger movie in ten more years, he'll

1422
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:46,679
Speaker 2: use that accent.

1423
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:52,520
Speaker 1: That'd be great. Davi would be on set coaching Christian Bale.

1424
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 1: You know you're saying hello, and it's really more.

1425
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:03,559
Speaker 2: Like alo Vera, so hear it behind the bastards and

1426
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 2: and at the dollop, which behind the bastards is the

1427
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:10,880
Speaker 2: kirklan brand version of We like to ask questions that

1428
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:14,040
Speaker 2: historians all too often try to ignore it, namely, how

1429
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 2: did bad people in history fuck? So? Yeah, we're talking

1430
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 2: about how Kissinger boned? Are you excited for the state?

1431
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:27,040
Speaker 1: No? No, I want to go? Can I leave it?

1432
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 1: I think you want to take care of himself?

1433
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:33,360
Speaker 2: If you know this is it is important to both

1434
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:35,800
Speaker 2: cover the historical crimes of a guy like Kissinger and

1435
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 2: and to get some personal color. And since we've spent

1436
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,519
Speaker 2: four episodes talking about his beliefs and his acts and power,

1437
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:44,639
Speaker 2: it's only fair that we now turn our fuckroscopes onto

1438
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:45,880
Speaker 2: his sex life.

1439
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:55,479
Speaker 1: This episode is going to have bass under it, right, absolutely, Yeah.

1440
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 2: So I think the best way for me to start

1441
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,000
Speaker 2: this segment is by reading a quote from a September fifteenth,

1442
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one article in the San Francisco Chronicle as

1443
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:06,120
Speaker 2: a warning, guys, there is a thirty percent chance this

1444
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:07,439
Speaker 2: is going to give one of you a stroke.

1445
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:11,799
Speaker 1: No, you mean way, you mean we're gonna be stroking

1446
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:12,719
Speaker 1: it our actual stroke.

1447
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:17,520
Speaker 2: That that is impossible to say, okay. Quote Henry Kissinger,

1448
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:19,840
Speaker 2: sex symbol of the Nixon administration.

1449
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:22,640
Speaker 1: Let me bite a stick. I'm just gonna bite a

1450
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 1: stick to be safe. I'm I'm just gonna get a

1451
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 1: branch in my mouth.

1452
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 2: Steps out of his office onto a sun drenched San

1453
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,800
Speaker 2: Clemente terrace with a cup of black coffee and sits

1454
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:38,240
Speaker 2: in a white deck chair with his legs crossed. The man, yeah,

1455
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:42,680
Speaker 2: the man who has pressured Moscow drafted state of the

1456
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:45,880
Speaker 2: World addresses, advised the President to enter a Cambodia and

1457
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:48,479
Speaker 2: pave the road to red China appears as something of

1458
01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:52,639
Speaker 2: an anachronism in his baggy midnight blue cotton trousers, black

1459
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:56,320
Speaker 2: tie shoes, bright blue unfitted blazer, blue and white striped

1460
01:15:56,360 --> 01:15:57,840
Speaker 2: shirt and striped tie.

1461
01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:02,120
Speaker 1: What you guys home then? So far? I mean, what fuck?

1462
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:10,760
Speaker 1: Embedded reporter Lban why I can't I can't imagine combining

1463
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:14,519
Speaker 1: the fashion sense with the war crime. It's so good

1464
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 1: because they acknowledged the war crimes and they're going talk

1465
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:20,720
Speaker 1: about it. It's like Henry could be walking got a

1466
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:23,439
Speaker 1: catwalk like like you'll see Henry right now in a

1467
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 1: tight white pants suit. You can see it suck to him. Henry,

1468
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 1: also known for ruining Cambodia in Vietnam, continued to quote.

1469
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:38,720
Speaker 4: He comes mass murder's sex machine, kissing your Oh no,

1470
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:40,000
Speaker 4: it's an open robe.

1471
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:44,640
Speaker 2: On the back wall, you can see some victims of

1472
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 2: the aged Orange campaign.

1473
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:46,640
Speaker 9: And then in.

1474
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:53,040
Speaker 2: Vietnam and on Henry yoursucker, you could notice the outline

1475
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 2: of his hog in those I don't know fancy pants brands.

1476
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,639
Speaker 2: Otherwise I would have finished that, but I'm gonna finish

1477
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 2: the quote now, because by god, there's more.

1478
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:05,400
Speaker 1: What are you trying to do? Seduce me?

1479
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:09,040
Speaker 2: Henry will tease as he notices his visitors hotpants. You

1480
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:12,040
Speaker 2: know I like these hotpants very much. Then he'll light

1481
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 2: your cigarette, touching your hand as all continentals do, offer

1482
01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:17,519
Speaker 2: you a cup of coffee, and discuss trivia as readily

1483
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:20,800
Speaker 2: as he would a Sino Soviet entaunt. The impeccably tidy

1484
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 2: image is perfect for dealing with Alexi Qostan or Chowan

1485
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:27,200
Speaker 2: or zowyn Lye, or lecturing at Harvard, But one cannot

1486
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:29,519
Speaker 2: help wonder if the movie star's mind that the ankle

1487
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:32,840
Speaker 2: socks of Washington's greatest swinger are falling down, or that

1488
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:36,240
Speaker 2: his wiry chestnut hair, which flashes golded in the intense

1489
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:39,519
Speaker 2: white sunlight, is too close crop to run their fingers through,

1490
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:41,240
Speaker 2: or that at least ten of his one hundred and

1491
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 2: seventy eight pounds protrude over his thin black belt, somehow

1492
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:47,960
Speaker 2: shortening his five feet nine inches. But suddenly an electric

1493
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 2: twinkle will flash through the intense blue of his eyes.

1494
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:53,480
Speaker 2: And what it catches, an inkling of that movie star magnetism,

1495
01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 2: that special quality which causes some people to call him

1496
01:17:56,560 --> 01:17:57,640
Speaker 2: cuddly kissinger.

1497
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:05,719
Speaker 1: No craziest thing that's happened so far? How did that happen? Oh? Man,

1498
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:07,320
Speaker 1: it's worse than war crimes.

1499
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:11,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is, oh my god, a bottom below the

1500
01:18:11,439 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 2: bottom folks.

1501
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:15,000
Speaker 9: Can we go back to just murdering hundreds of thousands

1502
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:16,000
Speaker 9: of Cambodians?

1503
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:21,360
Speaker 1: How did that happen? What in the fuck just went on?

1504
01:18:21,479 --> 01:18:24,080
Speaker 1: Is this a guy or a lady writing this? We

1505
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:27,640
Speaker 1: think it's a late I'm on a certain it's a lady. Yeah,

1506
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:30,160
Speaker 1: fuck him. She wants to or the dude wants to? Well,

1507
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:32,960
Speaker 1: what he holds your hand when he lights your cigarette?

1508
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:38,200
Speaker 1: Why did we have to talk about Kissinger's chest hair? Why? Why? Why? Indeed,

1509
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:41,120
Speaker 1: why indeed, David? Because can we napalm it?

1510
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:42,200
Speaker 10: That?

1511
01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:43,800
Speaker 2: This is what Nate Palm's for?

1512
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:44,240
Speaker 11: Right?

1513
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:48,240
Speaker 1: Speaking of palm, a little palmade in that hair of Henry's.

1514
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:50,920
Speaker 2: This has convinced me there is a place for the

1515
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:52,520
Speaker 2: B fifty two bomber.

1516
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:57,360
Speaker 1: In his pants. Boy, that's what Henry calls little Hank.

1517
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:04,519
Speaker 2: So fuck bafflingly, almost impossibly, it is not hard to

1518
01:19:04,520 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 2: find articles written at this exact sexual tenor, and unfortunately

1519
01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 2: would I would love to tell you guys that I'm

1520
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:13,720
Speaker 2: sure this was like a satire or a joke, but

1521
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:16,840
Speaker 2: the people were weirdly serious about this kind of shit

1522
01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:19,760
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy two. And there's no way you're ready

1523
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,720
Speaker 2: for what comes after this part of the sentence. What

1524
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:27,200
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy two, the Playboy Club hosted a poll

1525
01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 2: of the bunnies and asked them who was quote the

1526
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:32,679
Speaker 2: man I would mostly not do that on a date

1527
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:35,760
Speaker 2: with Henry Kissinger was number one.

1528
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 1: Oh in the fuck, no, no, no.

1529
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 9: What a horrible indictment of it, No first indictment of

1530
01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:46,360
Speaker 9: America that has ever been.

1531
01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:49,240
Speaker 1: This is the most damning thing you can say about.

1532
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:53,719
Speaker 1: It's right on the ground in the Playboy mansion. What

1533
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:57,880
Speaker 1: how is that? I can't It's like we're in the

1534
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:00,720
Speaker 1: back to the future, Biff Timeline. Well, hold on, the

1535
01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:04,519
Speaker 1: man who massacres hundreds of thousands knows how to fuck.

1536
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:07,120
Speaker 1: That's just an old saying. That is that is an

1537
01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:09,439
Speaker 1: old saying. I want to fuck you like I fucked

1538
01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:15,960
Speaker 1: the people of Vietnam overl So.

1539
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:19,680
Speaker 2: Once the first few articles about Henry Kissinger's you know

1540
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:25,360
Speaker 2: sex symbolitude dropped, you know, Kissinger himself started being questioned

1541
01:20:25,400 --> 01:20:29,200
Speaker 2: by reporters about the phenomenon. His standard reply became one

1542
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 2: of his most famous quotes. Power is the ultimate afrodisiac.

1543
01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:38,360
Speaker 1: I mean like there are there is. I mean people

1544
01:20:38,439 --> 01:20:43,240
Speaker 1: are attracted to like, yeah, psychos too, like Ted Bundy

1545
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:45,959
Speaker 1: had like a fan club, and like you know, like

1546
01:20:46,080 --> 01:20:48,439
Speaker 1: I mean j like I've been compared to Jeffrey Dahmer

1547
01:20:48,479 --> 01:20:50,960
Speaker 1: a number of times looks wise, which has always been

1548
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:51,439
Speaker 1: a pleasure.

1549
01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:53,759
Speaker 2: And you're both very handsome young men.

1550
01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:57,040
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you so much, and both still in the

1551
01:20:57,040 --> 01:21:01,519
Speaker 1: primes of our youth. Absolutely, it's still it's like you

1552
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:04,439
Speaker 1: feel like there is a separation with him and what

1553
01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:07,759
Speaker 1: it just seems very like a very strange connection.

1554
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:11,840
Speaker 2: It's it's baffling. Other than that, Like, here's the sad thing.

1555
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 2: We're gonna get to this. It's not just that he's powerful,

1556
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:18,080
Speaker 2: and the other thing about him that makes him women

1557
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:21,920
Speaker 2: so attracted to him is like bleak in a surprising way.

1558
01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:25,240
Speaker 2: But but we'll get to that. So famous women loved

1559
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:28,679
Speaker 2: being spotted on Kissinger's arm one night he was sighted

1560
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:31,200
Speaker 2: at the Trader vis in the Los Angeles Hill like

1561
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 2: flirting and holding hands with Jill Saint John, who played

1562
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:39,160
Speaker 2: the very first Bond girl. What he dated the first

1563
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:47,160
Speaker 2: James Bond girl on He needs Yeah, so you'll Saint

1564
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:48,560
Speaker 2: John to be honest.

1565
01:21:52,240 --> 01:21:58,040
Speaker 1: Murder troll, Well, so horrifying part, But who goes from

1566
01:21:58,120 --> 01:21:59,639
Speaker 1: Bond to murder munchkin?

1567
01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:02,440
Speaker 2: I mean, Bond is kind of a murder.

1568
01:22:02,120 --> 01:22:04,720
Speaker 1: Like Yeah, but he's good. He's a good guy. Was

1569
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:07,120
Speaker 1: he come on, ra always a good guy.

1570
01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:11,040
Speaker 2: So while they were out on this date, Jill Saint

1571
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 2: John and Kissinger were spotted by Ann Miller. Anne was

1572
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:17,440
Speaker 2: a dancer, famous adnswer at the time. She approached Kissinger

1573
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:19,800
Speaker 2: and quote in a friendly way. These are the words

1574
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 2: of biographer Walter Isaacson criticized him for having fun in

1575
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:25,639
Speaker 2: public while our boys in Vietnam are getting their head

1576
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:30,160
Speaker 2: shot off. Kissinger responded dourly, Miss Miller, you don't know

1577
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 2: anything about me. I was miserable in a marriage for

1578
01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:35,639
Speaker 2: most of my life. I never had any fun. Now

1579
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:39,080
Speaker 2: was my chance to enjoy myself. When this administration goes out.

1580
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:41,720
Speaker 2: I'm going back to being a professor. But while I'm

1581
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 2: in the position i'm in, I'm damnwill going to make

1582
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:44,639
Speaker 2: it count.

1583
01:22:45,160 --> 01:22:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean, really avoiding the the centralization. I mean, at

1584
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 1: no point does he acknowledge that that is an unfair

1585
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:57,880
Speaker 1: thing he's doing. He's just like, look, come on, even us.

1586
01:22:57,920 --> 01:23:01,320
Speaker 1: You know, psychopaths need to have some fun. Yeah, and

1587
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:04,120
Speaker 1: it's it's I mean, it's nice to hear someone like

1588
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:07,400
Speaker 1: approach him and and say something like that too. Yeah. Yeah.

1589
01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:10,360
Speaker 2: And of course she approached him for not doing right

1590
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:13,599
Speaker 2: by our gis and as opposed to not doing right

1591
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:15,599
Speaker 2: aliens of Cambodian and Vietnamese.

1592
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:16,559
Speaker 1: It's a morsel.

1593
01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:19,640
Speaker 2: It's a morsel out yeah, civilians, but yes, it is

1594
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:20,160
Speaker 2: a morsel.

1595
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:22,760
Speaker 1: I did something similar to the lead singer of the

1596
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:25,320
Speaker 1: count Crows. I went up to him and said that

1597
01:23:25,360 --> 01:23:29,559
Speaker 1: his band was bad, and they drove me crazy. Your

1598
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:32,240
Speaker 1: band's a war crime, you know, da.

1599
01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:33,840
Speaker 2: If you might have had more of an impact, if

1600
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:36,200
Speaker 2: you'd criticized him for playing his music while our boys

1601
01:23:36,240 --> 01:23:39,519
Speaker 2: in Vietnam are getting their head shut off, you.

1602
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:41,800
Speaker 1: Would have had some trouble parsing that out. Sir. Are

1603
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:45,639
Speaker 1: you okay? Yes, yeah, I'm been playing your jam bag

1604
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:49,439
Speaker 1: while I omer off there dying in the mud, face

1605
01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:53,280
Speaker 1: down in the mock. God, damn you. I think you

1606
01:23:53,320 --> 01:24:01,559
Speaker 1: have the wrong person. I know what you did, something

1607
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:07,080
Speaker 1: about a parking lot that you are edging up on.

1608
01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:10,000
Speaker 2: My favorite conspiracy theory, which is that the Tonkin golf

1609
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:12,320
Speaker 2: incident was engineered by the Counting.

1610
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:15,000
Speaker 1: Crows in order to sell out. Several decades later we

1611
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:16,559
Speaker 1: know it was.

1612
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely act that seems proven at this point. So

1613
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:25,559
Speaker 2: biographer Walter Isaacson describes Kissinger as having quote the boyish

1614
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:28,519
Speaker 2: glee of a senior on prom night in the twinkle

1615
01:24:28,520 --> 01:24:32,360
Speaker 2: of a middle aged rake. He regularly had quote striking

1616
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:34,360
Speaker 2: blonde women come with him into the White House on

1617
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:36,840
Speaker 2: lunch dates so he could show them off to his colleagues,

1618
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:39,559
Speaker 2: telling a coworker on at least one occasion to eat

1619
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:43,000
Speaker 2: your heart out. He's very much like bragging to other

1620
01:24:43,439 --> 01:24:47,360
Speaker 2: dudes about the fact that being Henry Kissinger has turned

1621
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:48,599
Speaker 2: him into a sex symbol, as.

1622
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:50,400
Speaker 1: He just had a gun and he was like, no, literally,

1623
01:24:50,439 --> 01:24:51,320
Speaker 1: eat your own heart.

1624
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:56,800
Speaker 2: So it was known that Kissinger's notorious temper could be

1625
01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:59,479
Speaker 2: somewhat offset by tossing young women in front of him.

1626
01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:01,720
Speaker 2: When his staffers fucked up and had to give him

1627
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:04,519
Speaker 2: bad news about a scheduling issue, they'd send the youngest

1628
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:06,880
Speaker 2: female secretary they had to go and give him the

1629
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:10,559
Speaker 2: news the White House Press Office. He's Diane Sawyer for

1630
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:11,160
Speaker 2: this purpose.

1631
01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:15,759
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Eventually the two started dating. Oh my god.

1632
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:19,400
Speaker 1: I mean, Jesus, she should not be allowed to still

1633
01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:23,360
Speaker 1: be doing news. I mean you need to have your

1634
01:25:23,439 --> 01:25:26,759
Speaker 1: news license revoked. You do you think he just comes

1635
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:30,120
Speaker 1: pure poison. Oh yeah, it's like Sara, It's just like

1636
01:25:30,160 --> 01:25:33,840
Speaker 1: a gas slowly releases. Yeah, we could harn as.

1637
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:37,920
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger's come to get Europe off of Russian crude.

1638
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:41,720
Speaker 1: They're going to drop the Kissinger goo on us.

1639
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:47,719
Speaker 2: Diane Sawyer later told New York Magazine, quote, the power

1640
01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:50,040
Speaker 2: of Henry working a room is still seismic. All of

1641
01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:52,280
Speaker 2: a sudden, everybody wants to step up their game and

1642
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:55,519
Speaker 2: say something he'll find interesting or funny. And you know,

1643
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:56,840
Speaker 2: I don't know how much of this is just like

1644
01:25:56,840 --> 01:25:59,600
Speaker 2: his Now, he's clearly a charismatic man, right, he clearly.

1645
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:02,880
Speaker 1: Has It feels like it's it's dinner for schmucks, and

1646
01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:05,920
Speaker 1: he's like the rooub Like it feels like it's not

1647
01:26:06,040 --> 01:26:08,479
Speaker 1: just doing as a bit. Everyone's just doing a bit.

1648
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:11,080
Speaker 1: Like it's just like it's a congruing with the person

1649
01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:14,439
Speaker 1: that we I see and hear about that. You're like,

1650
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:16,080
Speaker 1: oh my god, if you could get in a room

1651
01:26:16,080 --> 01:26:19,080
Speaker 1: with Henry Kissinger, just get right next to you will

1652
01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:24,040
Speaker 1: not leave his side. Yeah, obviously he's sexy. Obviously he's sexy.

1653
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:27,920
Speaker 1: Who wouldn't want to fuck Henry Kissinger? Of course want to.

1654
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:33,479
Speaker 2: Now this is all profoundly upsetting, but it gets Baker

1655
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:38,800
Speaker 2: so it's Isaacson, Who's who's probably Kissinger's best biographer. If

1656
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:42,080
Speaker 2: Walter Isaacson is correct, the reason all these women liked

1657
01:26:42,120 --> 01:26:45,800
Speaker 2: hanging around Henry wasn't just that he was powerful and no,

1658
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:48,200
Speaker 2: it was not that he had, you know, incredible dick game,

1659
01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:50,200
Speaker 2: which I'm sorry for saying that in the context of

1660
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:50,960
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger.

1661
01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:52,200
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you.

1662
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:57,799
Speaker 12: I are we just lost, we are we just plunged

1663
01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:05,320
Speaker 12: in the rankings, say fireball men, Yeah yeah, I'm going

1664
01:27:05,360 --> 01:27:08,840
Speaker 12: to quote now from Kissinger, a biography by Walter Isaacson.

1665
01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:11,240
Speaker 12: Kissinger's secret with women was not all that different from

1666
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:13,559
Speaker 12: his one with men, whom he wanted to charm. He

1667
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:16,040
Speaker 12: flattered them, he listened to them, he nodded a lot,

1668
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:18,519
Speaker 12: and he made eye contact. But unlike the way he

1669
01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:21,320
Speaker 12: was with most men, Kissinger was exceedingly patient with women

1670
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:23,880
Speaker 12: who wanted to talk. Very few men in the nineteen

1671
01:27:23,960 --> 01:27:27,160
Speaker 12: seventies actually listened to women. According to Betty Lord, Henry

1672
01:27:27,360 --> 01:27:29,720
Speaker 12: talked with you, talk to you seriously, and probed for

1673
01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:31,960
Speaker 12: what you knew or thought. He was someone who could

1674
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:34,439
Speaker 12: and would make a Jill Saint John feel intelligent or

1675
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:38,080
Speaker 12: a Shirley Maclin feel politically savvy, next to Ingmar Bergmann.

1676
01:27:38,120 --> 01:27:40,240
Speaker 12: He is the most interesting man I have ever met,

1677
01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:43,240
Speaker 12: said liv Ulman. He is surrounded by a fascinating aura,

1678
01:27:43,280 --> 01:27:45,560
Speaker 12: a strange field of light, and he catches you in

1679
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:49,120
Speaker 12: some kind of invisible net. Over long dinners at public places,

1680
01:27:49,120 --> 01:27:51,720
Speaker 12: he would listen with sympathy while women talked about themselves,

1681
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:54,839
Speaker 12: their lives, their hopes, and even sometimes their slightly wacky

1682
01:27:54,880 --> 01:27:57,480
Speaker 12: New Age philosophies. He would call them on the telephone

1683
01:27:57,520 --> 01:27:59,280
Speaker 12: late at night and talk for an hour or more

1684
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:01,760
Speaker 12: at a time. He was a great friend, especially a

1685
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:04,439
Speaker 12: telephone friend, always there when you needed him, said Jill

1686
01:28:04,479 --> 01:28:07,760
Speaker 12: Saint John. The dirty little secret about Kissinger's relationship with

1687
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:10,400
Speaker 12: women was that there was no dirty little secret. He

1688
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:12,639
Speaker 12: liked to go out with them, but not home with them.

1689
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:16,040
Speaker 12: His fascination with affairs tended to be foreign rather than domestic.

1690
01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:18,760
Speaker 12: Henry's idea of being romantic was to slow down his

1691
01:28:18,800 --> 01:28:20,720
Speaker 12: car when he dropped you off at a date. Said

1692
01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:23,240
Speaker 12: howar he may have been. How in fact the most

1693
01:28:23,240 --> 01:28:26,840
Speaker 12: celibate lecture in Washington. People say, yes, he doesn't do

1694
01:28:26,920 --> 01:28:30,760
Speaker 12: anything with these girls. His friend Peter Peterson once remarked.

1695
01:28:30,920 --> 01:28:33,960
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, what is happening is happening. So he's a

1696
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:36,720
Speaker 1: little asexual. I don't know if him.

1697
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:39,680
Speaker 2: I mean, he definitely had sex, he had relationships, he

1698
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 2: had kids, but I think the being seen with women,

1699
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:44,640
Speaker 2: the being seen as a sex symbol, wasn't But I

1700
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:46,680
Speaker 2: don't think he had a particularly high sex drive. I

1701
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:48,559
Speaker 2: don't think he's going out and like fucking his way

1702
01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:52,120
Speaker 2: through like famous people. I think he likes being seen

1703
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:54,320
Speaker 2: in public with beautiful women. And I think beautiful women

1704
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:57,240
Speaker 2: number one he's safe, like he's not gonna pressure you

1705
01:28:57,280 --> 01:29:00,000
Speaker 2: for anything, and number two, he'll actually listen to you

1706
01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:02,320
Speaker 2: like he's it's.

1707
01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:06,040
Speaker 1: An extremely low bar. I mean, right, there is like

1708
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:09,559
Speaker 1: something to that, you know, it's like he's he's doing yeah.

1709
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:11,960
Speaker 1: I mean I think that even now with guys like what,

1710
01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:14,920
Speaker 1: I'll hear like guys talking like yeah, it's like, just

1711
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:18,080
Speaker 1: be respectful and it'll probably get you, like I mean,

1712
01:29:18,320 --> 01:29:20,560
Speaker 1: it at least makes you not an asshole.

1713
01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:24,080
Speaker 2: I mean, he's he's he's you know what it is.

1714
01:29:24,560 --> 01:29:27,920
Speaker 2: I think the women in this situation are getting something

1715
01:29:27,920 --> 01:29:29,720
Speaker 2: out of it, right, Being with Henry Kissinger gets you

1716
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 2: in the news, it raises your profile. He's extremely famous

1717
01:29:32,280 --> 01:29:35,440
Speaker 2: and powerful, and you get taken maybe even more seriously,

1718
01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:38,599
Speaker 2: you know, as as a woman's who's a journalist who

1719
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:42,160
Speaker 2: wants to be seen as kind of intellectual being around

1720
01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:45,479
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger. He's a very serious public intellectual. It's good

1721
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:50,160
Speaker 2: for your career. And also he's just men in power

1722
01:29:50,240 --> 01:29:53,720
Speaker 2: were so much worse than they even are now that

1723
01:29:54,160 --> 01:29:58,479
Speaker 2: he was like the best dude in that world you

1724
01:29:58,520 --> 01:29:59,160
Speaker 2: could hang out.

1725
01:29:59,280 --> 01:30:02,840
Speaker 1: He's kind of like it's almost like a Batman villain

1726
01:30:02,960 --> 01:30:05,840
Speaker 1: again in the sense that like he's got he's this

1727
01:30:06,080 --> 01:30:10,280
Speaker 1: evil piece of shit, but yet he is also able

1728
01:30:10,320 --> 01:30:12,559
Speaker 1: to hold a conversation and not be a prick, And

1729
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:17,639
Speaker 1: you're like, wow, who could pull off such opposing courses A. Yeah,

1730
01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:20,760
Speaker 1: he treats women like humans. That's exactly.

1731
01:30:21,320 --> 01:30:25,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, literally that is Yeah, he will look a woman

1732
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:26,240
Speaker 2: in the eyes.

1733
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is the st John feels smart. The guy

1734
01:30:31,479 --> 01:30:32,240
Speaker 1: is a magician.

1735
01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:35,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is the only he is the only man

1736
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:38,479
Speaker 2: in power in Washington, DC who will like sit down

1737
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:40,479
Speaker 2: with a woman and listen to what she has to say.

1738
01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:43,240
Speaker 2: And as a result, he is the primary sex symbol

1739
01:30:43,320 --> 01:30:49,560
Speaker 2: of nineteen seventies. Squaka bar so. I mean it's incredible.

1740
01:30:49,680 --> 01:30:51,760
Speaker 1: It also again is it comes down to what we've

1741
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:54,920
Speaker 1: talked about before with him, which is media normalization and

1742
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:57,879
Speaker 1: how it is just once you kind of create that bubble,

1743
01:30:58,680 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 1: most people just acqui yes, and then you're just like,

1744
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:04,080
Speaker 1: you know, you kind of like Diane Zayer is just like,

1745
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:07,840
Speaker 1: oh yeah, well he's people don't throw bricks at him

1746
01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:10,880
Speaker 1: when he's outside, so he's okay now.

1747
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:15,599
Speaker 2: Isaacson's gives an example of a typical relationship. Kissinger's friendship

1748
01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:18,160
Speaker 2: with Jan Golding, who's a New York socialite he dated

1749
01:31:18,160 --> 01:31:20,760
Speaker 2: from seventy to seventy one. She was twenty two, he's

1750
01:31:20,760 --> 01:31:23,719
Speaker 2: like fifty. And Kissinger had been given her name byke

1751
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:29,400
Speaker 2: Kissinger had been given her name by Kirk Douglas. Kernie

1752
01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:32,759
Speaker 2: Douglas is the fucking hook up in this case. My god,

1753
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:36,840
Speaker 2: So Henry calls her one day without warning and asks

1754
01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:38,680
Speaker 2: if she wants to come out for dinner. When she

1755
01:31:38,800 --> 01:31:41,000
Speaker 2: flew down to DC to meet him, she was met

1756
01:31:41,000 --> 01:31:43,880
Speaker 2: at the airport by one of Kissinger's military aids, who

1757
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:46,080
Speaker 2: drove her to a fancy club where he was dining.

1758
01:31:46,479 --> 01:31:48,559
Speaker 2: The two sat down to eat, and midway through dinner,

1759
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 2: Henry got a phone call and stayed away for forty minutes.

1760
01:31:51,479 --> 01:31:53,760
Speaker 2: When he came back, he apologized and said that the

1761
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:56,840
Speaker 2: Secretary of State had needed his advice. But whenever he

1762
01:31:56,960 --> 01:31:59,240
Speaker 2: was present, he paid co close attention to her, and

1763
01:31:59,280 --> 01:32:01,280
Speaker 2: he asked her her opinion on issues of the day.

1764
01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:04,599
Speaker 2: She found the overall experience heady. The two dated for

1765
01:32:04,600 --> 01:32:08,200
Speaker 2: half a year, without any romance ever developing isaacson Wright's quote,

1766
01:32:08,280 --> 01:32:10,240
Speaker 2: only once did they go back to his apartment, and

1767
01:32:10,280 --> 01:32:13,040
Speaker 2: when they arrived and aid was their fielding telephone calls.

1768
01:32:13,360 --> 01:32:16,519
Speaker 2: By Golden's count, the phone rang forty times. You couldn't

1769
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:18,559
Speaker 2: do anything romantic in that place, even if you were

1770
01:32:18,640 --> 01:32:19,479
Speaker 2: dying too, she.

1771
01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 1: Recalled, who's dying. Nobody's dying too. She wants to get

1772
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 1: fucked by the old weirdo. Yeah, she's into it. I

1773
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:29,240
Speaker 1: must know my cock is horned.

1774
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she said. I just don't think Henry was

1775
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:36,240
Speaker 2: interested in sex when it came time to perform. Well,

1776
01:32:36,280 --> 01:32:38,360
Speaker 2: I just think he was too preoccupied for it. He

1777
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:40,519
Speaker 2: didn't have time for it. Power for him may have

1778
01:32:40,520 --> 01:32:43,240
Speaker 2: been the aphrodisiac, but it was also the climax.

1779
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:47,719
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I know that's a line right there.

1780
01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:53,839
Speaker 1: That's what he was doing in the bathroom for forty minutes. Yeah, oh, Henry.

1781
01:32:54,280 --> 01:32:56,840
Speaker 2: So. On one occasion, Henry was more honest than usual

1782
01:32:56,880 --> 01:32:59,479
Speaker 2: with one of his female friends, Orianna Fialacci, who's an

1783
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:02,360
Speaker 2: Italian author and a former World War Two partisan. She's

1784
01:33:02,360 --> 01:33:06,080
Speaker 2: actually a pretty fascinating person, he said. Quote when I

1785
01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 2: speak to Lee Ducto, who is the Vietnamese negotiator for

1786
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:11,200
Speaker 2: North Vietnam, I know what I have to do with

1787
01:33:11,280 --> 01:33:13,280
Speaker 2: Lee Ducto, and when I'm with girls, I know what

1788
01:33:13,280 --> 01:33:16,080
Speaker 2: I must do with girls. Besides, Lee Ducto doesn't at

1789
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:18,280
Speaker 2: all agree to negotiate with me because I represent an

1790
01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:22,640
Speaker 2: example of moral rectitude, This frivolous reputation, it's partially exaggerated,

1791
01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:25,000
Speaker 2: of course. What counts as to what degree women are

1792
01:33:25,000 --> 01:33:27,960
Speaker 2: part of my life a central preoccupation, Well they aren't

1793
01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:29,960
Speaker 2: that at all for me. Women are only a diversion,

1794
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:33,200
Speaker 2: a hobby. Nobody spends too much time with his hobbies.

1795
01:33:33,400 --> 01:33:36,759
Speaker 1: See for a minute there you're sort of thinking, Okay, well,

1796
01:33:37,080 --> 01:33:42,040
Speaker 1: if he's getting something out of female accompaniment, then in

1797
01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:45,439
Speaker 1: a way that is I mean, there's something kind of like,

1798
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:48,320
Speaker 1: there is something kind of nice about the idea that

1799
01:33:48,360 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 1: a guy is just not like trying to fuck his

1800
01:33:50,479 --> 01:33:52,920
Speaker 1: way through, you know, beautiful women, like he is just

1801
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:56,040
Speaker 1: enjoying the company of women. But then the more you

1802
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:58,360
Speaker 1: kind of peel back, the more it just does seem

1803
01:33:58,439 --> 01:34:03,720
Speaker 1: to be a like he's just he's just backwards. He's

1804
01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:07,200
Speaker 1: a backwards person. Every part of him has just been rearranged.

1805
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:10,920
Speaker 1: He's like a mannequin body of guts that fell down

1806
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:12,360
Speaker 1: and was put back improperly.

1807
01:34:15,240 --> 01:34:18,800
Speaker 2: Now the surprise, Kirk Douglas cameo there. Make Key went

1808
01:34:18,840 --> 01:34:21,360
Speaker 2: on the fact that Henry was also very popular with

1809
01:34:21,400 --> 01:34:24,959
Speaker 2: the celeb set. During the party thrown for Gloria Steinem

1810
01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:27,880
Speaker 2: by the talk show host Barbara Hower, causing, you're told

1811
01:34:27,880 --> 01:34:33,360
Speaker 2: those assembled I am a secret swinger. Now, yes, yeah,

1812
01:34:33,400 --> 01:34:36,639
Speaker 2: that's the thing he claimed. I like an maybe it's

1813
01:34:36,680 --> 01:34:37,120
Speaker 2: a joke.

1814
01:34:38,040 --> 01:34:40,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, that means he's like, he's saying he likes to fuck.

1815
01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:42,879
Speaker 1: But all the evidence we have is that he doesn't.

1816
01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:45,240
Speaker 2: Like Yeah, again, I think that's him myth making.

1817
01:34:45,360 --> 01:34:47,439
Speaker 1: I think that's just saying that I like to go

1818
01:34:47,479 --> 01:34:49,960
Speaker 1: around and touch the jenitos of fucking people.

1819
01:34:53,560 --> 01:34:55,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you go to a swingers party in DC and

1820
01:34:55,960 --> 01:34:58,280
Speaker 2: Henry's just there putting a finger on things.

1821
01:34:58,479 --> 01:35:03,240
Speaker 1: Is it, okay, both of you at the pinkeetings. I

1822
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:07,000
Speaker 1: get nothing out of this. It's fine, don't worry. I'm comeless.

1823
01:35:09,120 --> 01:35:12,000
Speaker 2: So Kissinger missed the announcement that he'd been nominated for

1824
01:35:12,080 --> 01:35:14,200
Speaker 2: Secretary of State because he was on a date with

1825
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:18,280
Speaker 2: Norwegian Oscar nominee liv Oulman. He took Candice Bergen out

1826
01:35:18,280 --> 01:35:20,280
Speaker 2: on a date when she was a young star. She

1827
01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:22,400
Speaker 2: later said that he gave her, quote the sense of

1828
01:35:22,439 --> 01:35:25,559
Speaker 2: shared secrets, probably the same set he gave every anti

1829
01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:28,320
Speaker 2: war actress, Like he would act like, oh, I'm really

1830
01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:31,200
Speaker 2: against the war. I'm inside the administration, like trying to

1831
01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:32,360
Speaker 2: get us out of these things.

1832
01:35:32,360 --> 01:35:32,559
Speaker 1: You know.

1833
01:35:32,640 --> 01:35:36,240
Speaker 2: It's it's like, yeah, he doesn't. He's yeah, he's a psycho.

1834
01:35:36,280 --> 01:35:38,400
Speaker 1: Psycho. I mean, it's to say about it's just I

1835
01:35:38,400 --> 01:35:41,800
Speaker 1: mean that way, he's completely everything we've heard is completely contrary.

1836
01:35:41,840 --> 01:35:45,800
Speaker 2: He's the fucking devil. Yeah, yeah, it's just psychotic.

1837
01:35:46,040 --> 01:35:46,840
Speaker 1: But also you have.

1838
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:49,760
Speaker 2: To credit like, I don't think Candice Bergen is lying.

1839
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:52,639
Speaker 2: I can imagine how you're not privy at that point

1840
01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:54,040
Speaker 2: in time to any of what we have, right to

1841
01:35:54,040 --> 01:35:56,160
Speaker 2: any disinformation we have about how much he was planning this,

1842
01:35:56,240 --> 01:35:58,439
Speaker 2: about what a two faced liar. He was so maybe

1843
01:35:58,439 --> 01:36:00,600
Speaker 2: you believe. Yeah, this man is so intense intelligent and

1844
01:36:00,840 --> 01:36:05,080
Speaker 2: is so like emotionally competent. I can't imagine him being

1845
01:36:05,080 --> 01:36:07,800
Speaker 2: the architect of these war crimes. He must be just

1846
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:10,639
Speaker 2: it's such a titanic system of evil and he's fighting

1847
01:36:10,680 --> 01:36:12,439
Speaker 2: alone to bring it down, and like.

1848
01:36:12,560 --> 01:36:14,640
Speaker 1: It must be why Hillary Clinton still hangs around him.

1849
01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:17,000
Speaker 1: He's like lose. I had nothing to do with then, Taylor,

1850
01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:21,160
Speaker 1: don't worry. We'll talk about that. Gareth. Oh good, oh great,

1851
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:22,400
Speaker 1: oh god.

1852
01:36:23,400 --> 01:36:26,320
Speaker 2: So I'm going to quote next from Niall Ferguson's Kissinger

1853
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:29,639
Speaker 2: quote for the Press. The story was irresistible. The dowdy

1854
01:36:29,680 --> 01:36:32,720
Speaker 2: Harvard professor reborn in Hollywood as Kerry Grant with a

1855
01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:35,760
Speaker 2: German accent. When Marlon Brando pulled out of the New

1856
01:36:35,800 --> 01:36:39,240
Speaker 2: York premiere of The Godfather, It's executive producer, Robert Evans

1857
01:36:39,320 --> 01:36:44,120
Speaker 2: unhesitatingly called Kissinger, and Kissinger obligingly flew up despite blizzard

1858
01:36:44,120 --> 01:36:46,519
Speaker 2: conditions and a schedule the next day that began with

1859
01:36:46,560 --> 01:36:48,679
Speaker 2: an early morning meeting with the Joint Chiefs of Staff

1860
01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:51,200
Speaker 2: to discuss the mining of Haiphong Harbor and ended with

1861
01:36:51,240 --> 01:36:54,719
Speaker 2: a secret flight to Moscow. A reporter asked, doctor Kissinger,

1862
01:36:54,880 --> 01:36:58,400
Speaker 2: why are you here tonight at the Godfather premiere? Kissinger responded,

1863
01:36:58,479 --> 01:37:02,320
Speaker 2: I was forced by who? By Bobby Bobby Evans. Did

1864
01:37:02,320 --> 01:37:04,080
Speaker 2: he make you an offer you couldn't refuse?

1865
01:37:04,400 --> 01:37:04,639
Speaker 1: Yes.

1866
01:37:05,120 --> 01:37:07,040
Speaker 2: As they fought their way through the throng, Evans had

1867
01:37:07,120 --> 01:37:09,559
Speaker 2: Kissinger on one arm and Ali McGraw on the other.

1868
01:37:09,920 --> 01:37:13,479
Speaker 2: What I know, right, would you have called that when

1869
01:37:13,520 --> 01:37:14,799
Speaker 2: we started this shit.

1870
01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:20,360
Speaker 1: Like you've Kissingers, You've lulled us into this being okay,

1871
01:37:21,320 --> 01:37:25,560
Speaker 1: because at the beginning absolutely not. But now I mean imagine,

1872
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:29,719
Speaker 1: honestly like a war criminal on a rent carpet going like, look,

1873
01:37:29,800 --> 01:37:31,760
Speaker 1: I didn't want to obviously, I want to stay in

1874
01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:36,479
Speaker 1: sel Vietnam. But Bobby called Bobby.

1875
01:37:37,960 --> 01:37:43,720
Speaker 2: Oh man, it's incredible. You know who else attended the

1876
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:48,679
Speaker 2: premiere of the Godfather with producer Robert Evans and Ali McGraw.

1877
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:51,719
Speaker 2: I can't wait to hear the sponsors of this show,

1878
01:37:52,080 --> 01:37:55,559
Speaker 2: oh deeply tied in Well, of course they are, right,

1879
01:37:55,600 --> 01:37:57,280
Speaker 2: Like they're the kind of people who get invited to

1880
01:37:57,360 --> 01:38:01,520
Speaker 2: hunt children on private islands off the coast of Indonesia.

1881
01:38:01,560 --> 01:38:03,400
Speaker 1: You know, I've heard it's an archipelago.

1882
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:06,840
Speaker 2: I refuse to believe that Hollywood producer Robert Evans did

1883
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:08,639
Speaker 2: not hunt children for sport at least once.

1884
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:11,519
Speaker 1: There's just no way.

1885
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:15,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, those glasses were just scopes, he laughed, like a

1886
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:22,400
Speaker 2: man who has hunted the most dangerous game. Anyway, here's ads.

1887
01:38:28,240 --> 01:38:32,200
Speaker 2: We're back now. In our Cambodia episode I mentioned and

1888
01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:33,839
Speaker 2: by the way, we're done with the sex stuff.

1889
01:38:34,439 --> 01:38:37,880
Speaker 1: You made it through. Wow, I read my sweatpants, my

1890
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:44,000
Speaker 1: sweatpants half ripped. God, please get back to the killer. Well,

1891
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:45,640
Speaker 1: don't worry.

1892
01:38:46,640 --> 01:38:49,439
Speaker 2: In our Cambodia episode, I mentioned that the illegal bombing

1893
01:38:49,439 --> 01:38:51,840
Speaker 2: of Cambodia was leaked to the New York Times, and

1894
01:38:51,960 --> 01:38:53,880
Speaker 2: this was a big story, and it prompted Nixon to

1895
01:38:53,880 --> 01:38:58,800
Speaker 2: suspect that Kissinger's liberal staffers had been the ones who

1896
01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:02,360
Speaker 2: had done the leaking. And so after this gets leaked,

1897
01:39:02,439 --> 01:39:06,680
Speaker 2: Kissinger and Nixon work together to orchestrate a wire tapping program. Well,

1898
01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:09,800
Speaker 2: Kissinger initially ran the whole program. He was actually in

1899
01:39:09,920 --> 01:39:13,200
Speaker 2: charge for only like a day. Nixon decided pretty quickly

1900
01:39:13,240 --> 01:39:16,400
Speaker 2: that he didn't trust Kissinger after all, namely because Herbert

1901
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:19,240
Speaker 2: Hoover expected that Kissinger was the one leaking things. And

1902
01:39:19,280 --> 01:39:23,000
Speaker 2: this is because Kissinger absolutely was leaking. Now, he was

1903
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:25,960
Speaker 2: not leaking the bombing of Cambodia, right, But Kissinger had

1904
01:39:26,000 --> 01:39:29,040
Speaker 2: his favorite journalists that he'd leaked things to. Some of

1905
01:39:29,120 --> 01:39:31,040
Speaker 2: them were guys he wanted to write a book about him,

1906
01:39:31,120 --> 01:39:32,559
Speaker 2: you know, and so he wanted them to give him

1907
01:39:32,600 --> 01:39:35,519
Speaker 2: positive coverage. Some of them were like leaks in order

1908
01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:37,240
Speaker 2: to hurt other people in the administration.

1909
01:39:37,280 --> 01:39:37,880
Speaker 1: Because there's just.

1910
01:39:37,880 --> 01:39:40,400
Speaker 2: Constant it's Nixon's We're not getting into this enough. Nixon's

1911
01:39:40,400 --> 01:39:43,800
Speaker 2: administration is just like an endless series of power struggles.

1912
01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:46,960
Speaker 2: Everyone is fucking over everybody else, right, like that that's

1913
01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:51,799
Speaker 2: the Nixon administration, right, That's incredible. Yeah, it's really quite

1914
01:39:51,880 --> 01:39:56,719
Speaker 2: quite a tale. So, yeah, Kissinger's absolutely leaking some stuff.

1915
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:59,759
Speaker 2: And that said, Nixon is pretty aware of who Kissinger

1916
01:39:59,800 --> 01:40:03,559
Speaker 2: is things too, And as Walter Isaacson writes, the real

1917
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:06,080
Speaker 2: reason why he pulled Henry from overseeing the program was

1918
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:08,680
Speaker 2: that the two were having one of their periodic feuds.

1919
01:40:09,120 --> 01:40:11,920
Speaker 2: Nixon actually made the call to pull Kissinger from the

1920
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:15,080
Speaker 2: wire tapping program right before he flew to Camp David,

1921
01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:17,639
Speaker 2: and like stopped returning Kissinger's phone calls for a week.

1922
01:40:18,000 --> 01:40:20,439
Speaker 1: It's just like thing. It was like, it's like fucking

1923
01:40:20,560 --> 01:40:24,160
Speaker 1: nineteen year olds fighting. It's dull. I'm not here. Yeah,

1924
01:40:24,280 --> 01:40:27,360
Speaker 1: they literally had just little TIFFs. You know.

1925
01:40:27,400 --> 01:40:34,400
Speaker 2: There's so much petty bullshit between Kissinger and Nixon, and

1926
01:40:34,439 --> 01:40:37,080
Speaker 2: they're very much like if you've ever been in a

1927
01:40:37,120 --> 01:40:41,599
Speaker 2: codependent relationship, the Kissinger and Nixon will seem extremely familiar

1928
01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:44,840
Speaker 2: because they'll like be fighting over some stupid bullshit and

1929
01:40:44,880 --> 01:40:46,880
Speaker 2: then things will get bad and they'll like come together

1930
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:49,160
Speaker 2: and be like also collapsing at the same time as

1931
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:50,280
Speaker 2: they're propping each other up.

1932
01:40:50,320 --> 01:40:53,920
Speaker 1: It's very funny. I got I mean, millions die. But

1933
01:40:54,640 --> 01:40:57,360
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that they said that. The well, I've been

1934
01:40:57,360 --> 01:41:00,160
Speaker 1: waiting for your apology. I can't stay mad at you.

1935
01:41:00,600 --> 01:41:04,080
Speaker 1: That's how this bomb Cambodia with. Look, we have too

1936
01:41:04,080 --> 01:41:06,439
Speaker 1: many people to kill to stem out at each other

1937
01:41:06,520 --> 01:41:10,880
Speaker 1: for this loan, So good over, Harriet Chef.

1938
01:41:11,160 --> 01:41:15,559
Speaker 2: Despite Kissinger Nixon periodically being angry with him throughout the

1939
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:18,600
Speaker 2: duration of the wire tapping program, Henry Kissinger retained the

1940
01:41:18,640 --> 01:41:22,479
Speaker 2: ability to pretty much wiretap American citizens at command. He

1941
01:41:22,479 --> 01:41:24,800
Speaker 2: would submit names to the FBI, he would start a

1942
01:41:24,840 --> 01:41:28,240
Speaker 2: wiretap on that person. When the secret wiretapping program was

1943
01:41:28,320 --> 01:41:30,760
Speaker 2: leaked in nineteen seventy three and blew up into a

1944
01:41:30,760 --> 01:41:34,840
Speaker 2: big congressional inquiry. Nixon took the blame, defending Kissinger by

1945
01:41:34,880 --> 01:41:38,320
Speaker 2: saying it was his responsibility not to control the program,

1946
01:41:38,520 --> 01:41:41,320
Speaker 2: but solely to furnish information to the FBI. So what

1947
01:41:41,320 --> 01:41:44,280
Speaker 2: they claimed is like Kissinger wasn't ordering wiretaps. He was

1948
01:41:44,320 --> 01:41:47,000
Speaker 2: giving it the FBI information on people we thought were suspicious,

1949
01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:49,680
Speaker 2: and they would decide to wiretap, And it's a coincidence

1950
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:51,439
Speaker 2: that all he would do was hand them a name

1951
01:41:51,479 --> 01:41:53,120
Speaker 2: and they would immediately start the wiretap.

1952
01:41:53,280 --> 01:41:56,600
Speaker 1: Right. It's like he would give the garment to the bloodhound,

1953
01:41:56,600 --> 01:41:57,800
Speaker 1: but he was exactly person.

1954
01:41:58,000 --> 01:42:00,479
Speaker 2: He's not hunting the child looking for him on go.

1955
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:01,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1956
01:42:01,880 --> 01:42:05,920
Speaker 2: So it's also though, like this might be the moment

1957
01:42:05,920 --> 01:42:08,479
Speaker 2: that proves Dick Nixon was actually a better person than

1958
01:42:08,520 --> 01:42:13,000
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger because he did like kind of take a

1959
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:17,360
Speaker 2: hit for his team, not that he wasn't responsible for

1960
01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:20,080
Speaker 2: the wire topics.

1961
01:42:20,760 --> 01:42:22,920
Speaker 1: In the land of no respect, a man with one

1962
01:42:22,960 --> 01:42:23,880
Speaker 1: outs has on all.

1963
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:27,719
Speaker 2: It was like a tiny, tiny dollar, if you will,

1964
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:31,439
Speaker 2: of honors from Henry Kissinger. Yeah, and we just never

1965
01:42:31,520 --> 01:42:33,880
Speaker 2: see that or from from Nixon and we just never

1966
01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:37,320
Speaker 2: see that from Kissinger. It's kind of like saying that,

1967
01:42:37,360 --> 01:42:39,920
Speaker 2: like a cheese greater is better to fuck than the

1968
01:42:39,920 --> 01:42:40,920
Speaker 2: blade of a jigsaw.

1969
01:42:41,200 --> 01:42:46,200
Speaker 1: But you know, it's something I well know that now

1970
01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:48,200
Speaker 1: that I think about it. I mean, if someone laid

1971
01:42:48,240 --> 01:42:52,840
Speaker 1: it on the table again, right, yeah, well, cheese raider,

1972
01:42:53,000 --> 01:42:54,880
Speaker 1: that's great. This jeez, what do we say, gentlemen, I'm

1973
01:42:54,880 --> 01:42:56,880
Speaker 1: gonna drop drought. Let's get great.

1974
01:42:58,320 --> 01:43:01,720
Speaker 2: So here's how the secret wire apping program worked. Kissinger

1975
01:43:01,720 --> 01:43:04,840
Speaker 2: and another Nixon dude I think it was Haldeman, would

1976
01:43:05,120 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 2: submit names to the FBI, which the FBI viewed as requests, right.

1977
01:43:08,840 --> 01:43:11,519
Speaker 2: The transcripts of that person's conversations then would all be

1978
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:15,000
Speaker 2: sent to Kissinger's death desk. So he got direct transcripts

1979
01:43:15,040 --> 01:43:17,720
Speaker 2: of every wiretap personally, and he would decide what to

1980
01:43:17,720 --> 01:43:19,719
Speaker 2: bring to Nixon. He wasn't the only guy he because

1981
01:43:19,800 --> 01:43:22,960
Speaker 2: again Nixon had multiple like people kind of competing through

1982
01:43:22,960 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 2: this program, right right, He's like the head writer. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So.

1983
01:43:27,840 --> 01:43:31,040
Speaker 2: James Adams, head of the FBI's Intelligence Division, later Total

1984
01:43:31,080 --> 01:43:33,679
Speaker 2: Biography that he did not think there was quote more

1985
01:43:33,880 --> 01:43:37,760
Speaker 2: or less wired tapping under Nixon than under previous presidents.

1986
01:43:38,160 --> 01:43:41,360
Speaker 2: What made things unusual, then, was that the wiretaps Nixon

1987
01:43:41,360 --> 01:43:45,639
Speaker 2: and Kissinger ordered were on NSC staff individuals that were

1988
01:43:45,680 --> 01:43:49,200
Speaker 2: part of the White House family in Isaacson's words right quote.

1989
01:43:49,520 --> 01:43:52,320
Speaker 2: In other words, previous wiretaps had mainly been on suspected

1990
01:43:52,320 --> 01:43:55,679
Speaker 2: spies potentially subversive union leaders in the like a regular

1991
01:43:55,680 --> 01:43:59,240
Speaker 2: program of wiretapping one's own aids was, according to Thomas Smith,

1992
01:43:59,280 --> 01:44:01,800
Speaker 2: another top f be I official, unprecedented.

1993
01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:06,880
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's amazing, Like that's what's amazing, right,

1994
01:44:06,920 --> 01:44:08,880
Speaker 1: It's like, well, no, it's not unusual that as for

1995
01:44:08,920 --> 01:44:11,600
Speaker 1: this many wire taps. It's just normally on people that

1996
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:14,880
Speaker 1: you're worried about, like attacking the country, not people who

1997
01:44:14,880 --> 01:44:17,240
Speaker 1: you've hired. The FBI is like, you.

1998
01:44:17,200 --> 01:44:19,800
Speaker 2: Know, we're okay with spying on dissidence, but they made

1999
01:44:19,800 --> 01:44:22,559
Speaker 2: a spy on their friends, and we feel gross about this.

2000
01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:30,640
Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger's wiretapping Nixon, Yeah, he's getting very caddy. Kissingers,

2001
01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:35,439
Speaker 1: just as you a wiretap on himself. Up, I love

2002
01:44:35,560 --> 01:44:39,280
Speaker 1: trust myself. You were joking, but you have accurately predicted

2003
01:44:39,280 --> 01:44:46,400
Speaker 1: where the story goes. No, what the fuck? This is

2004
01:44:46,600 --> 01:44:50,559
Speaker 1: such a chapter of American Trust Me as far as

2005
01:44:50,560 --> 01:44:53,800
Speaker 1: I could throw myself. Oh god, I am such a

2006
01:44:53,840 --> 01:44:56,800
Speaker 1: fucking asshole. Look at what I was saying. Oh my god.

2007
01:44:57,640 --> 01:45:00,639
Speaker 2: So these wire taps were all considered legal at the time,

2008
01:45:00,960 --> 01:45:03,839
Speaker 2: although the Supreme Court did later determine that they were illegal.

2009
01:45:03,880 --> 01:45:06,160
Speaker 2: It was kind of like one of these at the time,

2010
01:45:06,200 --> 01:45:08,559
Speaker 2: they were legal, and because of how gross they were,

2011
01:45:08,600 --> 01:45:11,840
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court was like, you know what, No, And

2012
01:45:11,920 --> 01:45:15,200
Speaker 2: thankfully the US never never wire tapped people again. That's

2013
01:45:15,960 --> 01:45:19,640
Speaker 2: the end of it. Famously, that's why Edward Snowden is

2014
01:45:19,720 --> 01:45:22,439
Speaker 2: famous for his reveal that no one was ever wire tapped.

2015
01:45:22,439 --> 01:45:25,240
Speaker 1: Again, that's why we don't know who Edward Snowden is.

2016
01:45:25,600 --> 01:45:30,200
Speaker 2: Yes, famous private citizen living in Ohio. Edward call a

2017
01:45:30,320 --> 01:45:38,320
Speaker 2: name out of the air, random guy. So a tremendous

2018
01:45:38,360 --> 01:45:40,400
Speaker 2: amount has been written on the subject of the wire

2019
01:45:40,400 --> 01:45:42,680
Speaker 2: tapping in the Nixon administration. I'm not going to go

2020
01:45:42,800 --> 01:45:45,040
Speaker 2: too into detail on it because as sleazy as it is,

2021
01:45:45,360 --> 01:45:48,519
Speaker 2: wiretapping your friends doesn't quite measure up to war crimes.

2022
01:45:48,800 --> 01:45:51,800
Speaker 2: Like it's gross, but it's also not that gross. And

2023
01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:55,160
Speaker 2: because it's super weird. Yeah, it's just like weird. It's

2024
01:45:55,160 --> 01:45:57,880
Speaker 2: a weird thing about them. There is something I should

2025
01:45:57,920 --> 01:45:59,920
Speaker 2: read here that reveals something meaningful about him.

2026
01:46:00,040 --> 01:46:01,439
Speaker 1: He's character. WILLIAMS.

2027
01:46:01,479 --> 01:46:03,880
Speaker 2: Sapphire was a New York Times op ed columnist and

2028
01:46:03,920 --> 01:46:06,840
Speaker 2: a Nition speech wise and a Nixon speech writer. He

2029
01:46:06,920 --> 01:46:09,560
Speaker 2: later said that Kissinger was quote capable of getting a

2030
01:46:09,600 --> 01:46:12,280
Speaker 2: special thrill out of working most closely with those he's

2031
01:46:12,280 --> 01:46:15,479
Speaker 2: spied on the most. So like, my Sapphire's attitude is

2032
01:46:15,560 --> 01:46:18,280
Speaker 2: like he was doing this mainly because he thought it

2033
01:46:18,320 --> 01:46:21,720
Speaker 2: was like kind of hot to be wire tapping a

2034
01:46:21,720 --> 01:46:23,760
Speaker 2: guy that he was working chasms.

2035
01:46:24,080 --> 01:46:28,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, finally, it's the power thing. It's the power thing. Yeah,

2036
01:46:28,600 --> 01:46:30,680
Speaker 1: who knows he's he loves that.

2037
01:46:30,760 --> 01:46:33,680
Speaker 9: He's like fucking over someone he's just hanging out with

2038
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:34,439
Speaker 9: and talking to him.

2039
01:46:34,439 --> 01:46:35,799
Speaker 1: They don't know he's it's.

2040
01:46:35,680 --> 01:46:38,640
Speaker 9: Like sliver, It's like, yeah, he gets it's this crazy

2041
01:46:38,680 --> 01:46:42,760
Speaker 9: thrill out of it. Yeah, he has secrets about them, like,

2042
01:46:42,840 --> 01:46:44,480
Speaker 9: oh god, it's so fucking weird.

2043
01:46:44,240 --> 01:46:46,000
Speaker 1: Going to that does.

2044
01:46:49,680 --> 01:46:52,880
Speaker 2: So he gets like yeah, that quote from Kissinger, power

2045
01:46:52,920 --> 01:46:55,720
Speaker 2: is the ultimate aphrodisiac. It's usually translated to him being

2046
01:46:55,760 --> 01:46:57,639
Speaker 2: like that's why women are so into me, right, because

2047
01:46:57,680 --> 01:47:00,240
Speaker 2: power turns people on. But I think it literally means

2048
01:47:00,240 --> 01:47:03,599
Speaker 2: that like he kind of gets off on exercising power, right,

2049
01:47:03,680 --> 01:47:05,160
Speaker 2: like that's his thing.

2050
01:47:05,360 --> 01:47:10,840
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I can even fuck my friends over. Yeah.

2051
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:14,160
Speaker 2: It is also worth noting that Henry wire tapped himself

2052
01:47:14,560 --> 01:47:17,400
Speaker 2: once he took off, as he had a secretary. I know,

2053
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:22,560
Speaker 2: I know, but it happened. Once he took office. He

2054
01:47:22,600 --> 01:47:24,880
Speaker 2: had a secretary listening on all of his calls and

2055
01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:27,800
Speaker 2: take memo notes on his conversations. He also had a

2056
01:47:27,840 --> 01:47:31,240
Speaker 2: series of what are called dead key extensions added to phones.

2057
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:33,920
Speaker 2: These are keys that were secretly added to phones in

2058
01:47:33,960 --> 01:47:35,880
Speaker 2: his office so that his secretaries and aids could like

2059
01:47:35,920 --> 01:47:38,479
Speaker 2: press them to listen in on calls without other people

2060
01:47:38,560 --> 01:47:42,479
Speaker 2: knowing and take notes on the calls, Oh Nixon. When

2061
01:47:42,560 --> 01:47:46,320
Speaker 2: Nixon would call Kissinger drunk, slurring his words, Kissinger would

2062
01:47:46,320 --> 01:47:47,880
Speaker 2: like wave all of his people like get in there,

2063
01:47:47,920 --> 01:47:48,920
Speaker 2: get in there, get in here.

2064
01:47:48,880 --> 01:47:50,000
Speaker 1: Like pick up the phone, pick up the.

2065
01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:55,320
Speaker 2: Phone, and then he would make faces making fun of

2066
01:47:55,360 --> 01:47:58,040
Speaker 2: the president while his notes is like aids listened it.

2067
01:47:58,280 --> 01:48:04,679
Speaker 1: Okay, I mean job, Okay, that's the coolest thing about.

2068
01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:11,000
Speaker 1: Take a step back and realize that Henry Kissinger is

2069
01:48:11,120 --> 01:48:14,920
Speaker 1: making fun of the wiretap he's called on himself while

2070
01:48:15,000 --> 01:48:17,639
Speaker 1: he's talking to the president who's blackout drunk.

2071
01:48:18,120 --> 01:48:23,720
Speaker 2: It's it's something else. War is not to minimize how

2072
01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:26,799
Speaker 2: fucked up you know the current administration to the previous

2073
01:48:26,840 --> 01:48:30,759
Speaker 2: administration was. But by god, America still has not reached

2074
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:32,520
Speaker 2: the Nixon peak of craziness.

2075
01:48:32,560 --> 01:48:37,160
Speaker 8: We've gotten it in like pieces, a little bit company.

2076
01:48:37,360 --> 01:48:40,719
Speaker 1: I've never had like the full team togethering. Yeah, you can't.

2077
01:48:40,800 --> 01:48:43,680
Speaker 2: It's it's really hard to compete with Dick Nixon and

2078
01:48:43,720 --> 01:48:44,479
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger.

2079
01:48:44,560 --> 01:48:46,519
Speaker 1: And I mean I talk about ahead of his time.

2080
01:48:46,680 --> 01:48:51,599
Speaker 1: Oh my god, his stuff age is great. Oh man.

2081
01:48:52,120 --> 01:48:55,639
Speaker 2: So Kissinger also used the transcripts he made to attack

2082
01:48:55,720 --> 01:48:58,760
Speaker 2: his coworkers and reinforce his loyalty to the president. When

2083
01:48:58,760 --> 01:49:01,479
Speaker 2: his colleague said something him that he knew Nixon would hate,

2084
01:49:01,560 --> 01:49:03,880
Speaker 2: or when someone made a comment agreeing with Kissinger on

2085
01:49:03,920 --> 01:49:06,519
Speaker 2: an issue, he would pass those notes from his secret

2086
01:49:06,560 --> 01:49:09,320
Speaker 2: conversations onto the president. So he'd hand the president like

2087
01:49:09,520 --> 01:49:11,280
Speaker 2: a transcript of a call he'd had with like a

2088
01:49:11,320 --> 01:49:13,320
Speaker 2: thing underlined that made Kissinger look good.

2089
01:49:14,320 --> 01:49:16,800
Speaker 1: Oh my god. From Kissinger.

2090
01:49:16,840 --> 01:49:20,559
Speaker 2: A biography quote, William Safire, who dubbed the transcripts the

2091
01:49:20,640 --> 01:49:23,840
Speaker 2: Dead Key Scrolls, said he once saw Kissinger altering one

2092
01:49:23,840 --> 01:49:25,439
Speaker 2: to shore up a point he wanted to make to

2093
01:49:25,479 --> 01:49:27,800
Speaker 2: the president. He had been chewing out a reporter from

2094
01:49:27,800 --> 01:49:30,080
Speaker 2: the Christian Science Monitor for writing a story that was

2095
01:49:30,160 --> 01:49:33,040
Speaker 2: unfavorable to Nixon. And doing so, he also tossed in

2096
01:49:33,120 --> 01:49:36,640
Speaker 2: occasional complaints about the perfidy of Secretary Rodgers. Since he

2097
01:49:36,720 --> 01:49:39,080
Speaker 2: was planning to send the transcript to the president, Sapphire

2098
01:49:39,160 --> 01:49:41,719
Speaker 2: said he had taken a draft and edited it, adding

2099
01:49:41,720 --> 01:49:44,080
Speaker 2: to the fierce loyalty of his own remarks, so he

2100
01:49:44,120 --> 01:49:46,040
Speaker 2: would like mark it up to make him like be

2101
01:49:46,160 --> 01:49:48,160
Speaker 2: more of a kiss ass kick to Nixon.

2102
01:49:48,439 --> 01:49:53,040
Speaker 1: I mean, fu incredible. Nixon's also like hammered. It's like,

2103
01:49:53,120 --> 01:49:55,679
Speaker 1: how hard do you have to work to convince this guy?

2104
01:49:55,760 --> 01:49:57,759
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? You hand him a my tie,

2105
01:49:57,880 --> 01:50:01,719
Speaker 1: Like it's easy. There you go. You're my best friend.

2106
01:50:02,040 --> 01:50:04,719
Speaker 1: I love you, Henry. I've never had a closer friend

2107
01:50:04,760 --> 01:50:07,840
Speaker 1: than you, Hank. Look at how much of your bitch

2108
01:50:07,880 --> 01:50:09,760
Speaker 1: I am.

2109
01:50:10,640 --> 01:50:13,559
Speaker 2: The existence of these transcripts was revealed by The Washington

2110
01:50:13,560 --> 01:50:16,360
Speaker 2: Post in nineteen seventy one, but Kissinger insisted they were

2111
01:50:16,439 --> 01:50:19,360
Speaker 2: just for the President's files. In reality, she used them

2112
01:50:19,400 --> 01:50:21,720
Speaker 2: for as notes to write his two books that he

2113
01:50:21,720 --> 01:50:25,040
Speaker 2: published after leaving power. But he was canny enough to

2114
01:50:25,080 --> 01:50:28,200
Speaker 2: know they had damning information. So when he considered quitting

2115
01:50:28,200 --> 01:50:31,120
Speaker 2: the Nixon administration in nineteen seventy three, he had them

2116
01:50:31,120 --> 01:50:34,280
Speaker 2: all shipped to a bomb shelter at Nelson Rockefeller self.

2117
01:50:34,439 --> 01:50:38,960
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, just happened. I never what you just said.

2118
01:50:41,240 --> 01:50:44,200
Speaker 2: Every third sentence you have to write about these guys.

2119
01:50:44,280 --> 01:50:47,400
Speaker 1: You know, it's like Magnet Fridge poetry.

2120
01:50:49,160 --> 01:50:53,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, he illegally hit government files and Nelson Rockefeller's private

2121
01:50:53,160 --> 01:50:53,799
Speaker 2: bomb shelter.

2122
01:50:53,880 --> 01:50:57,720
Speaker 1: It's just like it feels like, Rockefeller, may I use

2123
01:50:57,760 --> 01:51:03,559
Speaker 1: your bomb shelter. I need to put my biography notes there,

2124
01:51:03,920 --> 01:51:06,920
Speaker 1: of course, of course. And right, that's you know what

2125
01:51:06,920 --> 01:51:08,759
Speaker 1: I always say, my Bob shelters yours.

2126
01:51:08,880 --> 01:51:11,559
Speaker 2: These these are short stories, right, yes.

2127
01:51:11,760 --> 01:51:14,720
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, whatever you need to tell yourself. I need

2128
01:51:14,760 --> 01:51:17,360
Speaker 1: I need them say, in case there's a nuclear war.

2129
01:51:19,160 --> 01:51:23,040
Speaker 2: So obviously this is very illegal. And when Kissinger decided

2130
01:51:23,080 --> 01:51:25,879
Speaker 2: not to quit the administration, he had a military liaison

2131
01:51:25,960 --> 01:51:28,960
Speaker 2: Cinda plane to pick them up from Rockefeller's house, and

2132
01:51:29,000 --> 01:51:30,720
Speaker 2: then he hid them in a bomb shelter under the

2133
01:51:30,720 --> 01:51:36,040
Speaker 2: White House. Oh, after he left him. No, there's no

2134
01:51:36,280 --> 01:51:37,400
Speaker 2: rules for these people.

2135
01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:39,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're fucking notes.

2136
01:51:39,600 --> 01:51:42,680
Speaker 9: They don't need to survive the fucking nuclear holocaust.

2137
01:51:42,680 --> 01:51:44,920
Speaker 1: How great, though, if a bomb is in coming towards

2138
01:51:44,920 --> 01:51:46,760
Speaker 1: the White House and they all go there and it's

2139
01:51:46,840 --> 01:51:50,280
Speaker 1: just stacked with Kissinger papers. Yeah, well this guy was

2140
01:51:50,280 --> 01:51:55,400
Speaker 1: a real piece of shit. This is awkward going to petish. Yeah,

2141
01:51:55,400 --> 01:51:57,400
Speaker 1: he's just sitting in the corner. I don't think you

2142
01:51:57,439 --> 01:51:58,280
Speaker 1: should read those.

2143
01:52:01,880 --> 01:52:05,360
Speaker 2: So after he left office, Kissinger donated the papers to

2144
01:52:05,400 --> 01:52:08,160
Speaker 2: the Library of Congress under the restriction that they would

2145
01:52:08,160 --> 01:52:10,360
Speaker 2: not be made available until he had been dead for

2146
01:52:10,400 --> 01:52:10,960
Speaker 2: five years.

2147
01:52:11,160 --> 01:52:15,120
Speaker 1: Well he's been. He's been for five years. We should

2148
01:52:15,120 --> 01:52:17,759
Speaker 1: tell the raid him now. Who makes that deal.

2149
01:52:18,439 --> 01:52:20,840
Speaker 2: It's not a great thing, the Library of Congress.

2150
01:52:21,840 --> 01:52:26,439
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ Fie. By the way, most people, most people

2151
01:52:26,479 --> 01:52:28,800
Speaker 1: do like the after I die. He wants the five

2152
01:52:28,880 --> 01:52:30,519
Speaker 1: year buffer, which sounds a little.

2153
01:52:32,080 --> 01:52:34,280
Speaker 2: He wants time for people to get things out of

2154
01:52:34,280 --> 01:52:34,719
Speaker 2: the country.

2155
01:52:34,920 --> 01:52:39,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I want to make sure i'm pure bone. Yeah.

2156
01:52:39,760 --> 01:52:43,160
Speaker 2: So, Kissinger was also convinced that Nixon's chief of staff Haldeman,

2157
01:52:43,240 --> 01:52:47,720
Speaker 2: had Nixon wire tapped and Nixon sorry. Kissinger was also

2158
01:52:47,760 --> 01:52:50,479
Speaker 2: convinced that Nixon's chief of staff Holdman and Nixon had

2159
01:52:50,479 --> 01:52:54,000
Speaker 2: wire tapped him, which they absolutely had, so Kissinger was

2160
01:52:54,080 --> 01:52:56,959
Speaker 2: kind of tapping himself, but Nixon had also wire tapped Kissinger,

2161
01:52:57,360 --> 01:53:00,479
Speaker 2: and when he passed Haldeman in the hall, Kissinger would say, quote,

2162
01:53:00,600 --> 01:53:03,760
Speaker 2: what do your taps tell you about me? Today?

2163
01:53:05,000 --> 01:53:07,800
Speaker 1: It's almost remember that what was it? I don't remember

2164
01:53:07,800 --> 01:53:09,920
Speaker 1: what it was on where Lily Tomlin was the one

2165
01:53:10,040 --> 01:53:12,840
Speaker 1: ringy dinghy operator who keeps plugging in on it. It's

2166
01:53:12,840 --> 01:53:14,880
Speaker 1: almost like that with wire taps, where you're just like

2167
01:53:14,920 --> 01:53:18,679
Speaker 1: every wire is getting plugged across. Nixon's wire tapping Kissinger,

2168
01:53:18,720 --> 01:53:21,360
Speaker 1: who's wire tapping himself, who's wired tapping Nixon, who's also

2169
01:53:21,400 --> 01:53:24,160
Speaker 1: wire tapping Halderman, who's wire tapping Kissinger, is also wired

2170
01:53:24,160 --> 01:53:24,840
Speaker 1: tapping Nixon.

2171
01:53:25,040 --> 01:53:27,640
Speaker 2: And that's why we know so much about not just

2172
01:53:27,720 --> 01:53:29,840
Speaker 2: like the crimes they committed, but like what they were

2173
01:53:29,920 --> 01:53:32,519
Speaker 2: saying in the meetings while they committed the crimes. Yeah,

2174
01:53:32,520 --> 01:53:37,559
Speaker 2: because unbeknownst to Kissinger and everyone else, Nixon was also

2175
01:53:37,640 --> 01:53:41,439
Speaker 2: wire tapping himself, like he recorded every conversation that he

2176
01:53:41,479 --> 01:53:42,639
Speaker 2: had in the Oval office.

2177
01:53:42,760 --> 01:53:46,040
Speaker 1: Again is the most that that to me is like

2178
01:53:46,479 --> 01:53:48,360
Speaker 1: the one of the most. I mean, it's why we

2179
01:53:48,520 --> 01:53:50,760
Speaker 1: know so much, because if you are able to, like

2180
01:53:51,040 --> 01:53:53,960
Speaker 1: if Trump or I mean, if any of them, I mean,

2181
01:53:54,000 --> 01:53:56,640
Speaker 1: if you had the Bush tapes, like they would be

2182
01:53:56,680 --> 01:54:01,080
Speaker 1: fucking incredible. But it's also that Nixon recorded himself that

2183
01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:04,200
Speaker 1: was like okay, take him and everyone's like, the fuck

2184
01:54:04,280 --> 01:54:07,080
Speaker 1: are you drunk? And he's like, I am, actually, I

2185
01:54:07,120 --> 01:54:09,080
Speaker 1: am extremely I am so drunk.

2186
01:54:09,120 --> 01:54:11,840
Speaker 2: My secretary of Defense has a contingency plan and in

2187
01:54:11,880 --> 01:54:15,280
Speaker 2: case I try to nuke everyone, checkers ever.

2188
01:54:15,240 --> 01:54:19,640
Speaker 1: Been that drunk? No one has.

2189
01:54:20,800 --> 01:54:23,920
Speaker 2: So this was a secret until the Watergate scandal was

2190
01:54:23,960 --> 01:54:27,080
Speaker 2: really feeled at the end of nineteen seventy two. Kissinger

2191
01:54:27,160 --> 01:54:29,519
Speaker 2: was warned about this that like the Watergate story was

2192
01:54:29,560 --> 01:54:31,720
Speaker 2: about to break two months ahead of time, and he

2193
01:54:31,880 --> 01:54:35,120
Speaker 2: was horrified by the implications, namely by the fact by

2194
01:54:35,120 --> 01:54:37,720
Speaker 2: the things we've already gone over at length that he had,

2195
01:54:37,880 --> 01:54:40,520
Speaker 2: like he was on tape in these records agreeing and

2196
01:54:40,640 --> 01:54:44,080
Speaker 2: encouraging with Nixon's bigotry and his copious racial slurs. So, like,

2197
01:54:44,840 --> 01:54:47,880
Speaker 2: Kissinger is not involved in Watergate, so he's like, I'm

2198
01:54:47,880 --> 01:54:50,640
Speaker 2: not worried about that. I'm worried that everyone's gonna know that.

2199
01:54:50,720 --> 01:54:53,200
Speaker 2: I was like egging Nixon's bigotry on in order to

2200
01:54:53,280 --> 01:54:53,960
Speaker 2: kiss his ass.

2201
01:54:55,280 --> 01:54:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing for him to be horrified, like of all

2202
01:54:59,000 --> 01:55:02,400
Speaker 1: the things he's done, like for this to be like

2203
01:55:02,480 --> 01:55:04,440
Speaker 1: it's it's always like the weirdest thing, but it's like

2204
01:55:04,440 --> 01:55:06,520
Speaker 1: for this, for him to be like, this could really

2205
01:55:06,600 --> 01:55:12,120
Speaker 1: damage my credibility.

2206
01:55:12,800 --> 01:55:16,000
Speaker 2: When he was asked about this later about like encouraging

2207
01:55:16,040 --> 01:55:19,200
Speaker 2: Nixon's bigotry, Kissinger explained that the things he'd said to

2208
01:55:19,280 --> 01:55:21,760
Speaker 2: Nixon were based on quote, the needs of the moment,

2209
01:55:22,120 --> 01:55:25,320
Speaker 2: rather than to quote stand the test of deferred scrutiny,

2210
01:55:25,480 --> 01:55:27,680
Speaker 2: which was a nice way of saying, I'm only racist

2211
01:55:27,680 --> 01:55:30,880
Speaker 2: around racists. In one of the most impressive feats of

2212
01:55:30,920 --> 01:55:35,080
Speaker 2: mental gymnastics and political history, Kissinger actually argued that his

2213
01:55:35,160 --> 01:55:38,440
Speaker 2: egging Nixon on was meant to protect the American people.

2214
01:55:38,760 --> 01:55:41,480
Speaker 2: Quote he was so much in need of suckor so

2215
01:55:41,680 --> 01:55:46,120
Speaker 2: totally alone. Our national security depended so much on his functioning.

2216
01:55:46,400 --> 01:55:52,400
Speaker 1: Uh, it's called yes and okay, he was Chicago school.

2217
01:55:52,600 --> 01:55:58,040
Speaker 1: It's called the Implympic pod. I mean again, to be

2218
01:55:58,080 --> 01:56:01,480
Speaker 1: able to get away with that argument, it just should

2219
01:56:01,920 --> 01:56:02,600
Speaker 1: start loud.

2220
01:56:03,240 --> 01:56:06,880
Speaker 2: Now, speaking of Nixon's functioning, it's probably time to talk

2221
01:56:06,920 --> 01:56:10,040
Speaker 2: a little more about Watergate. As previously covered. In nineteen

2222
01:56:10,080 --> 01:56:13,200
Speaker 2: seventy one, Nixon and his team, including Kissinger, hired a

2223
01:56:13,240 --> 01:56:17,280
Speaker 2: goon squad of ex FBI and CIA agents called the Plumbers,

2224
01:56:17,520 --> 01:56:20,400
Speaker 2: and asked them to investigate the leak of the Pentagon papers.

2225
01:56:20,840 --> 01:56:23,280
Speaker 2: These guys broke into the office of Daniel Ellsberg, that's

2226
01:56:23,320 --> 01:56:25,640
Speaker 2: the guy who leaked the Pentagon papers. He was a

2227
01:56:25,720 --> 01:56:28,200
Speaker 2: Department of Defense employee. They break into the office of

2228
01:56:28,240 --> 01:56:31,440
Speaker 2: his psychiatrist to try and steal records to smear him.

2229
01:56:31,840 --> 01:56:35,160
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy two, one of the Plumbers, g Gordon Lyddie,

2230
01:56:35,480 --> 01:56:38,040
Speaker 2: was transferred to the Committee to re elect the President.

2231
01:56:38,240 --> 01:56:41,640
Speaker 2: The acronym of this organation organization was literally creep because

2232
01:56:41,640 --> 01:56:45,360
Speaker 2: satire has never happened even once, Like it's impossible, nope,

2233
01:56:45,600 --> 01:56:50,240
Speaker 2: over over Lyddy's team executed a wide, raging plan to

2234
01:56:50,280 --> 01:56:53,000
Speaker 2: illegally spy on the Democratic Party, which ended with them

2235
01:56:53,040 --> 01:56:56,480
Speaker 2: breaking into DNC headquarters in the Watergate Building in DC

2236
01:56:56,640 --> 01:57:00,800
Speaker 2: and bugging the phones of staffers. They got arrested almost immediately,

2237
01:57:01,240 --> 01:57:03,800
Speaker 2: like that night they get busted, right, that's like when

2238
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:06,600
Speaker 2: this all starts. And so that's what like the fact

2239
01:57:06,600 --> 01:57:09,360
Speaker 2: that this, like the Watergate scandal in public knowledge starts

2240
01:57:09,440 --> 01:57:11,160
Speaker 2: is like these guys getting arrested doing a break in.

2241
01:57:11,640 --> 01:57:14,160
Speaker 2: He's a crime reporter named Bob Woodward, and on the

2242
01:57:14,200 --> 01:57:16,280
Speaker 2: case he was not a political journalist. He was like

2243
01:57:16,520 --> 01:57:19,360
Speaker 2: a crime beat DC reporter. But he hears about this

2244
01:57:19,440 --> 01:57:22,200
Speaker 2: break in and he's like, something's fucking going on here,

2245
01:57:22,280 --> 01:57:25,200
Speaker 2: and he winds up making you know, contacts with a

2246
01:57:25,280 --> 01:57:28,320
Speaker 2: guy who we later eventually, like decades later, learned was

2247
01:57:28,360 --> 01:57:31,680
Speaker 2: the associate director of the FBI. That's deep throat, you know, famously,

2248
01:57:32,080 --> 01:57:34,960
Speaker 2: this guy gives him information and the Washington Post under

2249
01:57:34,960 --> 01:57:37,560
Speaker 2: Woodward and Bernstein, right, he has a partner in it too,

2250
01:57:37,560 --> 01:57:40,760
Speaker 2: Like they're both doing very good journalism here. They start

2251
01:57:40,840 --> 01:57:43,160
Speaker 2: dropping articles at the tail end of nineteen seventy two,

2252
01:57:43,600 --> 01:57:46,040
Speaker 2: and a trial over the break in starts in nineteen

2253
01:57:46,080 --> 01:57:50,360
Speaker 2: seventy three January, right after Nixon wins reelection, well Woodward

2254
01:57:50,360 --> 01:57:53,000
Speaker 2: and his partner Carl Bernstein were running down leads. They

2255
01:57:53,000 --> 01:57:55,920
Speaker 2: got in touch with another FBI guy and asked him, Hey,

2256
01:57:56,160 --> 01:58:00,000
Speaker 2: who kept authorizing all of these wire taps? That FBI guy?

2257
01:58:00,080 --> 01:58:04,040
Speaker 2: I said, well, Henry Kissinger. In a lot of cases,

2258
01:58:04,080 --> 01:58:07,200
Speaker 2: it's Kissinger, he's like our main guy calling us. So

2259
01:58:08,040 --> 01:58:11,480
Speaker 2: Woodward calls Henry Kissinger, who plays dumb at first and

2260
01:58:11,520 --> 01:58:15,720
Speaker 2: then tries to blame Holdeman for the wire tapping. Woodward asked, Okay, well,

2261
01:58:15,760 --> 01:58:18,480
Speaker 2: is it possible you were the one doing wiretapping Henry,

2262
01:58:18,720 --> 01:58:21,360
Speaker 2: and Kissinger says, I don't believe it was true.

2263
01:58:23,320 --> 01:58:23,400
Speaker 1: What.

2264
01:58:24,120 --> 01:58:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a weasel answer. He's four years old.

2265
01:58:29,400 --> 01:58:32,960
Speaker 2: Woodward asks is that a denial? And Kissinger response, I

2266
01:58:33,080 --> 01:58:34,320
Speaker 2: frankly don't remember.

2267
01:58:35,320 --> 01:58:40,120
Speaker 10: I mean, it's kind of like it's it is kind

2268
01:58:40,160 --> 01:58:42,200
Speaker 10: of like nice to see the genesis because the I

2269
01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:45,040
Speaker 10: don't remember things just utilized so much now.

2270
01:58:45,400 --> 01:58:47,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it's like one of the first like

2271
01:58:47,480 --> 01:58:49,400
Speaker 1: where you're just like, I think if I just say

2272
01:58:49,400 --> 01:58:51,840
Speaker 1: I forgot, I can go the way with this shit. Yeah.

2273
01:58:51,840 --> 01:58:54,800
Speaker 2: You can imagine a young Bill Clinton reading this news

2274
01:58:54,840 --> 01:58:55,960
Speaker 2: story and saying, I'm not.

2275
01:58:55,880 --> 01:58:58,240
Speaker 1: Sure why, but I think I'm gonna take notes on this.

2276
01:58:58,520 --> 01:59:02,520
Speaker 1: I remember, but I don't remember how that came to be.

2277
01:59:06,880 --> 01:59:09,520
Speaker 1: It's also it shows you, like how insulated they were

2278
01:59:09,560 --> 01:59:13,080
Speaker 1: in their psychotic little dome that once they actually take

2279
01:59:13,120 --> 01:59:15,280
Speaker 1: their tactics out of the real world, people like, yeah,

2280
01:59:15,280 --> 01:59:17,640
Speaker 1: that's a crime, and we have you. They're like, yeah, shit,

2281
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:22,520
Speaker 1: fuck the president's drunk.

2282
01:59:23,920 --> 01:59:27,000
Speaker 2: So Kissinger admitted after that line of question that he

2283
01:59:27,200 --> 01:59:29,720
Speaker 2: might have given the FBI the names of some people

2284
01:59:29,720 --> 01:59:32,720
Speaker 2: who had access to leaked documents and quote, it's quite

2285
01:59:32,760 --> 01:59:38,320
Speaker 2: possible they construed this as an authorization. So once he

2286
01:59:38,440 --> 01:59:41,320
Speaker 2: makes this admission to Woodward, Henry starts to get looser

2287
01:59:41,360 --> 01:59:43,600
Speaker 2: and he talks about how he figured he probably should

2288
01:59:43,680 --> 01:59:47,840
Speaker 2: take responsibility for the wiretapping, and then he realized almost immediately, like,

2289
01:59:47,840 --> 01:59:50,600
Speaker 2: oh shit, I fucked up. And he asks Bob Woodward,

2290
01:59:50,800 --> 01:59:53,600
Speaker 2: you aren't quoting me, right, Like, he's like, this isn't

2291
01:59:53,600 --> 01:59:54,440
Speaker 2: on the record, is it.

2292
01:59:54,760 --> 01:59:56,880
Speaker 1: That's what it works too, right, you put it on

2293
01:59:56,920 --> 01:59:58,400
Speaker 1: the record, and then you're like record.

2294
01:59:59,040 --> 02:00:01,520
Speaker 2: Woodward says, of course, this is on the record.

2295
02:00:01,560 --> 02:00:02,160
Speaker 1: Like what the fuck?

2296
02:00:02,320 --> 02:00:05,640
Speaker 2: Like like, I never said this was off the record. Yeah,

2297
02:00:06,520 --> 02:00:09,480
Speaker 2: Kissinger insisted, well, I was only speaking on background.

2298
02:00:09,560 --> 02:00:09,960
Speaker 1: Quote.

2299
02:00:10,120 --> 02:00:12,120
Speaker 2: I've tried to be honest, and now you're going to

2300
02:00:12,120 --> 02:00:15,040
Speaker 2: penalize me. In five years in Washington, I've never been

2301
02:00:15,080 --> 02:00:18,960
Speaker 2: trapped into talking like this. If a journalist calls you

2302
02:00:19,040 --> 02:00:23,240
Speaker 2: and asks you questions. As the Secretary.

2303
02:00:22,640 --> 02:00:25,960
Speaker 1: Of State, you're calling us bff. Right, you just wanted

2304
02:00:26,000 --> 02:00:30,840
Speaker 1: to chat, right, I thought, how are you? What times

2305
02:00:30,840 --> 02:00:34,920
Speaker 1: have you committed bub Yeah, it's it's fascinating.

2306
02:00:35,360 --> 02:00:39,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, dumb, it's so dumb, dumb, and it shows what

2307
02:00:39,120 --> 02:00:42,440
Speaker 2: fucking tame little pricks the entirety of the White House

2308
02:00:42,480 --> 02:00:44,920
Speaker 2: Press Corps were, right, Yeah, because Kissinger thought he could

2309
02:00:44,920 --> 02:00:47,920
Speaker 2: get away with this and he finally encountered like an

2310
02:00:47,960 --> 02:00:53,120
Speaker 2: actual journalist for the ones, right, and just like thirty

2311
02:00:53,200 --> 02:00:56,920
Speaker 2: seconds with Woodward and he's blown wide open and it.

2312
02:00:56,800 --> 02:01:00,920
Speaker 1: Does not handle it. Yeah, he's just pissing his pay cry.

2313
02:01:01,000 --> 02:01:03,760
Speaker 2: You know what it is if you've seen those videos

2314
02:01:03,800 --> 02:01:07,760
Speaker 2: of like those fucking those tai Chi champions who are

2315
02:01:07,760 --> 02:01:09,840
Speaker 2: like in those videos fighting their students where they're just

2316
02:01:09,840 --> 02:01:12,840
Speaker 2: like flipping everyone around the room, throwing them and then

2317
02:01:12,920 --> 02:01:15,200
Speaker 2: like they fight an actual MMA fighter who just like

2318
02:01:15,280 --> 02:01:17,400
Speaker 2: takes them down in thirteen seconds.

2319
02:01:17,480 --> 02:01:22,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's like how Segal fights where yeah, yeah

2320
02:01:22,560 --> 02:01:27,240
Speaker 1: it's Stephen Judo. Yeah it is.

2321
02:01:27,560 --> 02:01:29,800
Speaker 2: This is this is the moment for Kissinger. That's like

2322
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:32,800
Speaker 2: when when Steven Sagall got choked out by Jean LaBelle

2323
02:01:32,840 --> 02:01:38,200
Speaker 2: and shot his past. All right, okay, I'm the start

2324
02:01:38,880 --> 02:01:40,160
Speaker 2: come on this could happen?

2325
02:01:40,400 --> 02:01:42,640
Speaker 1: Come on, no Well play fake.

2326
02:01:42,880 --> 02:01:46,400
Speaker 2: Next from Kissinger a biography quote. Woodward wondered what kind

2327
02:01:46,400 --> 02:01:48,920
Speaker 2: of treatment Kissinger was accustomed to getting from the press.

2328
02:01:49,120 --> 02:01:52,600
Speaker 2: He consulted Murray Martyr, the kindly soft edged diplomatic reporter

2329
02:01:52,640 --> 02:01:55,920
Speaker 2: who covered Kissinger for The Post. Well Martin admitted Henry

2330
02:01:56,040 --> 02:01:59,040
Speaker 2: was regularly allowed to put statements on background after he

2331
02:01:59,120 --> 02:01:59,760
Speaker 2: had made them.

2332
02:02:00,240 --> 02:02:03,520
Speaker 1: I mean it really it does. And what's so frustrating

2333
02:02:03,600 --> 02:02:06,920
Speaker 1: is that it's like, you know, they they've all kind

2334
02:02:07,000 --> 02:02:10,120
Speaker 1: of learned from the mistakes of this time in ways

2335
02:02:10,240 --> 02:02:13,520
Speaker 1: where it is it's kind of the same shit. I mean,

2336
02:02:13,600 --> 02:02:15,640
Speaker 1: everything is kind of a fluff piece. You're allowed to

2337
02:02:15,680 --> 02:02:17,440
Speaker 1: be in the White House Press Corps if you ask

2338
02:02:17,520 --> 02:02:22,120
Speaker 1: softball questions, you know, it like this this was like

2339
02:02:22,240 --> 02:02:25,440
Speaker 1: a major fuck up, and they all were like, well,

2340
02:02:25,880 --> 02:02:28,879
Speaker 1: the lesson we've learned here is don't let good reporters

2341
02:02:28,920 --> 02:02:31,560
Speaker 1: around you. Yeah, don't let journalists exist.

2342
02:02:31,680 --> 02:02:36,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of those there's so much going on here.

2343
02:02:37,080 --> 02:02:39,120
Speaker 1: It really is. This is like we are peaking.

2344
02:02:39,720 --> 02:02:41,680
Speaker 2: There are ways in which, like, there are times when

2345
02:02:41,760 --> 02:02:43,480
Speaker 2: journalism does work that way. Right when I am like

2346
02:02:43,560 --> 02:02:46,040
Speaker 2: sitting down and talking to like a fucking dissident or

2347
02:02:46,040 --> 02:02:49,120
Speaker 2: a protester, someone who like might be targeted by the

2348
02:02:49,160 --> 02:02:52,920
Speaker 2: state or by you know, fucking fascist or whatever and murdered,

2349
02:02:53,280 --> 02:02:55,480
Speaker 2: and they like say something and then later are like, oh,

2350
02:02:55,480 --> 02:02:57,000
Speaker 2: you know, can I take that off the record? I'm

2351
02:02:57,040 --> 02:02:58,960
Speaker 2: worried that's gonna like reveal me. Yeah, of course, like

2352
02:02:59,000 --> 02:03:02,000
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie, but like, yeah, it doesn't. It

2353
02:03:02,040 --> 02:03:07,720
Speaker 2: should never work that way for cabinet level fucking government official, right,

2354
02:03:07,760 --> 02:03:10,320
Speaker 2: they can't if you agree ahead of time to make

2355
02:03:10,360 --> 02:03:13,000
Speaker 2: something off the record. Yeah, that that happens. That's like

2356
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:16,040
Speaker 2: a thing that occurs. Although I think that's problematic too,

2357
02:03:16,080 --> 02:03:18,120
Speaker 2: But like they don't get to just take something off

2358
02:03:18,160 --> 02:03:19,440
Speaker 2: the record retroactively.

2359
02:03:19,520 --> 02:03:20,560
Speaker 1: That's not how it works.

2360
02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:24,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, And I mean it's just a care about his access,

2361
02:03:24,120 --> 02:03:25,600
Speaker 9: so they don't know about the actual story.

2362
02:03:25,640 --> 02:03:26,879
Speaker 1: They just want to talk to them again.

2363
02:03:26,840 --> 02:03:28,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they want to keep getting access.

2364
02:03:28,680 --> 02:03:31,960
Speaker 1: It is. It's like it needs to be a group

2365
02:03:32,080 --> 02:03:34,000
Speaker 1: of people need to say that this is all fun,

2366
02:03:34,080 --> 02:03:36,360
Speaker 1: but instead they're like, oh, what a great cocktail party.

2367
02:03:36,400 --> 02:03:39,320
Speaker 2: And Woodward, to his credit, there's critiques to make about

2368
02:03:39,320 --> 02:03:41,480
Speaker 2: Woodward later in his career, but to his credit is like,

2369
02:03:41,640 --> 02:03:43,960
Speaker 2: I don't give a shit about access. I'm trying to

2370
02:03:44,000 --> 02:03:47,160
Speaker 2: take down a president, Like I could give a fuck

2371
02:03:47,480 --> 02:03:53,360
Speaker 2: write this off here, you know. Like so Nixon eventually

2372
02:03:53,360 --> 02:03:55,680
Speaker 2: took the fall, as we've covered, but the issue was

2373
02:03:55,720 --> 02:03:59,680
Speaker 2: brought up again in nineteen seventy three when Kissinger went

2374
02:03:59,720 --> 02:04:02,800
Speaker 2: through his confirmation hearings to become Secretary of State. We

2375
02:04:02,840 --> 02:04:04,960
Speaker 2: don't need to cover the politicking he did to secure

2376
02:04:05,000 --> 02:04:07,640
Speaker 2: that job, but I should note all the fallout over

2377
02:04:07,680 --> 02:04:11,040
Speaker 2: wiretapping in the disaster in Cambodia didn't do shit to

2378
02:04:11,080 --> 02:04:14,160
Speaker 2: reduce Henry's popularity at home. In nineteen seventy two, he

2379
02:04:14,200 --> 02:04:17,000
Speaker 2: had ranked fourth on the list of most admired Americans.

2380
02:04:17,280 --> 02:04:20,800
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy three, he was number one, largely because

2381
02:04:20,840 --> 02:04:27,680
Speaker 2: Harry Trump had died, which is also pretty bleak. Yeah, baby,

2382
02:04:28,720 --> 02:04:29,520
Speaker 2: we are, I.

2383
02:04:29,480 --> 02:04:32,560
Speaker 1: Mean, and that's when you're like, we deserve it. I mean,

2384
02:04:32,720 --> 02:04:37,960
Speaker 1: if you are that incapable of deciphering reality from fiction

2385
02:04:38,360 --> 02:04:41,800
Speaker 1: to some extent, you want to be taking advantage of Yeah, yeah,

2386
02:04:41,960 --> 02:04:44,520
Speaker 1: you're the rube who opens the door to the vacuum

2387
02:04:44,520 --> 02:04:48,400
Speaker 1: cleaner salesman. Yeah, well, okay, yet a shirt on my floor.

2388
02:04:48,440 --> 02:04:50,400
Speaker 1: I want to see how this thing sucks. You need

2389
02:04:50,440 --> 02:04:53,640
Speaker 1: my social Security number of course. Okay, a new promise,

2390
02:04:53,680 --> 02:04:56,440
Speaker 1: I get five hundred thousand dollars in the mail. Okay.

2391
02:04:57,520 --> 02:05:01,000
Speaker 2: So one congressman that proposed a constitution amendment to allow

2392
02:05:01,080 --> 02:05:03,880
Speaker 2: foreign born citizens to run for president because of like

2393
02:05:03,960 --> 02:05:07,240
Speaker 2: how much he liked fucking Kissinger. I don't like Henry.

2394
02:05:07,480 --> 02:05:11,040
Speaker 2: Henry received a figure at Madame Tussaud's wax Museum in London,

2395
02:05:11,240 --> 02:05:15,600
Speaker 2: which quickly became the star attraction. Miss Universe pageant contestants

2396
02:05:15,680 --> 02:05:18,600
Speaker 2: voted him quote the greatest person in the world today.

2397
02:05:20,200 --> 02:05:22,120
Speaker 1: Is it possible that we just put a heart in

2398
02:05:22,160 --> 02:05:25,160
Speaker 1: the Madame Tusso's figure and melted it and that's what's

2399
02:05:25,160 --> 02:05:29,800
Speaker 1: walking around now, Yeah, that's we just left it in

2400
02:05:29,800 --> 02:05:30,600
Speaker 1: the sun for a week.

2401
02:05:30,680 --> 02:05:32,240
Speaker 9: Like you bring up the media like this is just

2402
02:05:32,280 --> 02:05:36,000
Speaker 9: so like they just normalize monsters. They act like monsters

2403
02:05:36,000 --> 02:05:39,400
Speaker 9: are great people. Yeah, and people don't actually hear the

2404
02:05:39,440 --> 02:05:41,560
Speaker 9: fucking heinous shit that they're doing.

2405
02:05:41,720 --> 02:05:44,280
Speaker 1: No, and they just hear he's a smart guy. But

2406
02:05:45,000 --> 02:05:46,120
Speaker 1: it's because that's what matters.

2407
02:05:46,120 --> 02:05:48,720
Speaker 2: That's he can like quote smart dead people that they

2408
02:05:48,920 --> 02:05:51,400
Speaker 2: you haven't read, but you know they're smart because their

2409
02:05:51,480 --> 02:05:53,840
Speaker 2: name sounds vaguely familiar, and so you're like, well, this

2410
02:05:53,920 --> 02:05:56,200
Speaker 2: guy's read all these smart dudes. He must be a

2411
02:05:56,200 --> 02:05:59,040
Speaker 2: good guy, because smart people don't do bad thing.

2412
02:05:59,000 --> 02:06:01,480
Speaker 1: Well, and smart people like go out with reporters, and

2413
02:06:01,560 --> 02:06:03,800
Speaker 1: you know, you would just be like, look at Frankenstein

2414
02:06:03,840 --> 02:06:06,400
Speaker 1: at the Playboy mansion. Gosh, he's got those bolts on

2415
02:06:06,440 --> 02:06:08,280
Speaker 1: his neck and the girls love to twirl them.

2416
02:06:11,720 --> 02:06:15,000
Speaker 2: So it is perhaps not surprising, even though the Watergate

2417
02:06:15,040 --> 02:06:17,360
Speaker 2: scandal had built to a fever pitch by seventy three,

2418
02:06:17,640 --> 02:06:20,240
Speaker 2: that Henry Kissinger was a shoe in to be appointed

2419
02:06:20,240 --> 02:06:22,560
Speaker 2: as Secretary of State. On the day of his first

2420
02:06:22,560 --> 02:06:25,840
Speaker 2: Congressional confirmation hearings, someone in the press asked, do you

2421
02:06:25,880 --> 02:06:30,120
Speaker 2: prefer to be called mister secretary or doctor secretary? He replied,

2422
02:06:30,440 --> 02:06:32,920
Speaker 2: I do not stand on protocol. If you just called

2423
02:06:32,960 --> 02:06:38,600
Speaker 2: me excellency, it will be okay, oh excuse me, pardon

2424
02:06:38,840 --> 02:06:41,800
Speaker 2: and again, as a journalist, the proper response to that

2425
02:06:42,040 --> 02:06:46,960
Speaker 2: is to throw your handheld recorder at his face, like

2426
02:06:47,200 --> 02:06:48,520
Speaker 2: try to take a chair to.

2427
02:06:48,520 --> 02:06:52,000
Speaker 1: His nose like they did to Heraldo. You know, right, yeah,

2428
02:06:52,200 --> 02:06:56,240
Speaker 1: break his face. I'm not talking up on times. If

2429
02:06:56,320 --> 02:06:58,680
Speaker 1: you can just bow and call me on majesty.

2430
02:07:00,120 --> 02:07:04,320
Speaker 2: So Kissinger was extremely nervous going into the confirmation hearings

2431
02:07:04,320 --> 02:07:07,520
Speaker 2: because again, Nixon is being torn apart for Watergate right now,

2432
02:07:07,920 --> 02:07:10,440
Speaker 2: and he was expecting that he'd be interrogated about all

2433
02:07:10,440 --> 02:07:13,280
Speaker 2: the shady wiretapping he'd done. But as it turned out,

2434
02:07:13,320 --> 02:07:15,160
Speaker 2: all he had to do was lie and say he'd

2435
02:07:15,200 --> 02:07:18,360
Speaker 2: never recommended wiretapping. Everyone decided that was fine, and he

2436
02:07:18,400 --> 02:07:21,200
Speaker 2: was confirmed by Secretary of State seventy eight votes to

2437
02:07:21,280 --> 02:07:22,040
Speaker 2: seventy seven.

2438
02:07:22,640 --> 02:07:24,840
Speaker 1: Jeez. And here's the thing.

2439
02:07:24,960 --> 02:07:27,000
Speaker 2: Even among the people who voted against him, there was

2440
02:07:27,040 --> 02:07:31,080
Speaker 2: not always strong antipathy. George McGovern voted against confirming him,

2441
02:07:31,240 --> 02:07:34,320
Speaker 2: but he called Kissinger afterwards to privately endorse him, to

2442
02:07:34,400 --> 02:07:36,200
Speaker 2: be like, hey, publicly, I got to pretend I don't

2443
02:07:36,280 --> 02:07:36,840
Speaker 2: like you, but like.

2444
02:07:37,120 --> 02:07:44,200
Speaker 1: Ooh right, bro, I don't worry. Someday I'll be the

2445
02:07:44,200 --> 02:07:48,160
Speaker 1: president and I got my eye on you, Henry. Yeah.

2446
02:07:48,320 --> 02:07:52,080
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, that might have happened. Yeah, probably so.

2447
02:07:52,200 --> 02:07:54,879
Speaker 2: When he was sworn in on September twenty first, nineteen

2448
02:07:54,920 --> 02:07:57,920
Speaker 2: seventy three, a family friend presented Kissinger with a copy

2449
02:07:57,920 --> 02:08:00,720
Speaker 2: of the Old Testament that had been published in Firth

2450
02:08:00,760 --> 02:08:02,760
Speaker 2: in eighteen oh one for him to be sworn in on.

2451
02:08:03,240 --> 02:08:06,200
Speaker 2: Kissinger decided instead to use Nixon's copy of the King

2452
02:08:06,320 --> 02:08:08,440
Speaker 2: James Bible with I just open it.

2453
02:08:08,440 --> 02:08:10,680
Speaker 1: It's a bottle of bourbon. Oh sorry, it's actually it's

2454
02:08:13,000 --> 02:08:15,000
Speaker 1: use an Firth one.

2455
02:08:15,960 --> 02:08:19,560
Speaker 2: So alast for Dick Nixon, seventy four was an even

2456
02:08:19,600 --> 02:08:22,000
Speaker 2: worse year for him than seventy three had been. In

2457
02:08:22,080 --> 02:08:24,640
Speaker 2: July of that year, three Southern Democrats on the House

2458
02:08:24,720 --> 02:08:27,520
Speaker 2: Judiciary Committee announced that they were voting to impeach him.

2459
02:08:27,720 --> 02:08:31,000
Speaker 2: On August fifth, a transcript of taped conversations between him

2460
02:08:31,000 --> 02:08:34,040
Speaker 2: and Haldeman was released, which proved his involvement in the

2461
02:08:34,080 --> 02:08:36,480
Speaker 2: cover up of the Watergate break and proved he'd lied

2462
02:08:36,600 --> 02:08:39,520
Speaker 2: under oath. This was the nail in the coffin. On

2463
02:08:39,560 --> 02:08:42,880
Speaker 2: August seventh, Bury Goldwater told Nixon he would not survive

2464
02:08:42,920 --> 02:08:46,400
Speaker 2: an impeachment vote. Nixon had already made the decision to leave.

2465
02:08:46,640 --> 02:08:49,200
Speaker 2: He met with Jerry Ford, his vice president, and told

2466
02:08:49,240 --> 02:08:51,760
Speaker 2: him that he was about to be president. He urged

2467
02:08:51,760 --> 02:08:54,440
Speaker 2: Ford to keep Kissinger on as his secretary of State.

2468
02:08:54,920 --> 02:08:57,520
Speaker 2: Ben Nixon made his big announcement to the American people

2469
02:08:57,880 --> 02:09:01,240
Speaker 2: next from history dot com. After the speech, kissing your

2470
02:09:01,240 --> 02:09:04,680
Speaker 2: accompanied Nixon to his living quarters one last time. History

2471
02:09:04,840 --> 02:09:06,760
Speaker 2: is going to a called that you were a great

2472
02:09:06,800 --> 02:09:11,360
Speaker 2: president kissing you're assured Nixon. Henry the President said that

2473
02:09:11,440 --> 02:09:14,080
Speaker 2: will depend on who writes the history.

2474
02:09:15,520 --> 02:09:19,240
Speaker 1: Can you imagine a wasted Nixon showed Gerald Ford around, like, oh,

2475
02:09:19,320 --> 02:09:21,080
Speaker 1: this is the vodka.

2476
02:09:20,600 --> 02:09:24,840
Speaker 6: Put that in your wadies in the morning. This is pineapple,

2477
02:09:24,960 --> 02:09:26,880
Speaker 6: used to eat those with cottage cheese every day.

2478
02:09:27,240 --> 02:09:28,880
Speaker 1: Now here's a deck Nixon sacred.

2479
02:09:28,880 --> 02:09:31,320
Speaker 2: If you pour a little diet coke in the bourbon,

2480
02:09:31,640 --> 02:09:34,800
Speaker 2: they can't tell you're getting drunk at nine in the morning.

2481
02:09:34,840 --> 02:09:36,120
Speaker 1: When you're confused. Just not.

2482
02:09:37,680 --> 02:09:39,600
Speaker 6: When you're throwing up in the toilet and say something

2483
02:09:39,640 --> 02:09:41,120
Speaker 6: disagreed with you and it's diarrheal.

2484
02:09:41,280 --> 02:09:43,760
Speaker 2: The Secret Service agents have to let your puke down

2485
02:09:43,800 --> 02:09:44,440
Speaker 2: their sleeves.

2486
02:09:44,440 --> 02:09:48,680
Speaker 1: That's what I've been doing. This is the vodka room.

2487
02:09:49,200 --> 02:09:52,360
Speaker 1: This is the vodka room. And this is the vodka room.

2488
02:09:52,640 --> 02:09:55,840
Speaker 6: This draw this drawer, here's for letters and things like

2489
02:09:55,920 --> 02:09:57,640
Speaker 6: steps like that, And this is the drawer you can

2490
02:09:57,680 --> 02:09:59,680
Speaker 6: puke in. But just bend over and pretend you're looking

2491
02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:03,360
Speaker 6: for some I'm gonna be honest, I've been shitting in

2492
02:10:03,400 --> 02:10:04,520
Speaker 6: the fireplace a lot.

2493
02:10:04,600 --> 02:10:06,880
Speaker 2: It's hard to find the bathroom when you're turned in

2494
02:10:06,920 --> 02:10:07,360
Speaker 2: the oval.

2495
02:10:07,560 --> 02:10:07,800
Speaker 1: Look.

2496
02:10:07,840 --> 02:10:10,360
Speaker 6: Look, if you're worried, just lift this cushion up. This

2497
02:10:10,480 --> 02:10:14,040
Speaker 6: chair is actually a toilet with wheels such behind the

2498
02:10:14,160 --> 02:10:20,320
Speaker 6: ask trying to think what else Baser laws, you can

2499
02:10:20,360 --> 02:10:21,320
Speaker 6: wipe your ass with them.

2500
02:10:23,280 --> 02:10:26,160
Speaker 1: By the way, this is all being recorded. Everything is wait,

2501
02:10:26,400 --> 02:10:28,839
Speaker 1: this chest hair is actually a tape recorder.

2502
02:10:31,840 --> 02:10:35,360
Speaker 2: Kissinger's sorrow over his boss stepping down was sopped somewhat

2503
02:10:35,360 --> 02:10:38,240
Speaker 2: by the fact that right around the same time, he'd

2504
02:10:38,280 --> 02:10:47,760
Speaker 2: succeeded in overthrowing an actual democratically elected leader, doctor salvadoran Day. Now, yeah,

2505
02:10:47,920 --> 02:10:49,520
Speaker 2: we have We're not going to talk about this in

2506
02:10:49,560 --> 02:10:51,800
Speaker 2: a lot of detail because we have gone into detail

2507
02:10:51,920 --> 02:10:54,600
Speaker 2: on the coup against Diande in both our episodes on

2508
02:10:54,640 --> 02:10:57,400
Speaker 2: The Dullest Brothers into the School of the Americas. It's

2509
02:10:57,440 --> 02:10:59,920
Speaker 2: just like, not this is the thing to like cut

2510
02:11:00,080 --> 02:11:02,000
Speaker 2: out of our Kissinger story because we've covered it a

2511
02:11:02,000 --> 02:11:04,960
Speaker 2: lot before. But I will give an overview of Kissinger's

2512
02:11:05,000 --> 02:11:07,560
Speaker 2: involvement for the listeners who maybe aren't familiar.

2513
02:11:07,640 --> 02:11:11,600
Speaker 1: Robert, Yeah, I know we are all on the same page,

2514
02:11:11,240 --> 02:11:13,280
Speaker 1: but you're Daris or whatever.

2515
02:11:13,640 --> 02:11:17,320
Speaker 2: Salvadoriende was a socialist e dude who was elected in

2516
02:11:17,400 --> 02:11:20,800
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy Like all kind of socialists the US overthrows,

2517
02:11:20,840 --> 02:11:23,200
Speaker 2: he was not nearly as radical as they pretended he was,

2518
02:11:23,240 --> 02:11:26,000
Speaker 2: but he was like solidly left wing the US back

2519
02:11:26,040 --> 02:11:29,080
Speaker 2: to military coup that overthrew him in nineteen seventy three,

2520
02:11:29,160 --> 02:11:33,000
Speaker 2: i Inde committed suicide and was replaced by General Augusto Pinochet,

2521
02:11:33,160 --> 02:11:35,480
Speaker 2: who tortured and murdered tens of thousands of people over

2522
02:11:35,520 --> 02:11:38,640
Speaker 2: the next seventeen years. So I'm going to be brief

2523
02:11:38,680 --> 02:11:40,600
Speaker 2: here and I'm going to read a summary of Kissinger's

2524
02:11:40,640 --> 02:11:44,800
Speaker 2: role in that kerfuffle from the Transnational Institute. Less than

2525
02:11:44,800 --> 02:11:47,200
Speaker 2: a week after Nixon received the disappointing news about the

2526
02:11:47,200 --> 02:11:50,560
Speaker 2: presidential vote, he decided to annul the Chilean vote. A

2527
02:11:50,680 --> 02:11:54,000
Speaker 2: quote widely attributed to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger explained

2528
02:11:54,000 --> 02:11:56,560
Speaker 2: to Nixon's morality, I don't see why we need to

2529
02:11:56,600 --> 02:11:59,000
Speaker 2: stand by and watch a country go communist due to

2530
02:11:59,040 --> 02:12:01,920
Speaker 2: the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too

2531
02:12:01,960 --> 02:12:04,680
Speaker 2: important for the Chilean voters to be left it aside

2532
02:12:04,680 --> 02:12:05,400
Speaker 2: for themselves.

2533
02:12:05,560 --> 02:12:08,240
Speaker 1: I mean, like you are, you need to be like

2534
02:12:08,400 --> 02:12:13,240
Speaker 1: so far gone to be comfortable speaking in that way.

2535
02:12:13,760 --> 02:12:18,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you you that's ghoulishly evil.

2536
02:12:18,160 --> 02:12:19,680
Speaker 1: I mean it's just like you could come up with

2537
02:12:19,720 --> 02:12:23,320
Speaker 1: a version of that that would also probably sound effective,

2538
02:12:23,400 --> 02:12:26,160
Speaker 1: but to basically be like, look, the people have fucked

2539
02:12:26,200 --> 02:12:31,440
Speaker 1: up voting. They've they've wrongly voted. Oopsie, poopsie. Let's we can't. Well,

2540
02:12:31,480 --> 02:12:33,360
Speaker 1: we'll do it for him. We'll figure out, I mean,

2541
02:12:33,400 --> 02:12:36,680
Speaker 1: we'll take care of this again. United States policy pretty much,

2542
02:12:37,000 --> 02:12:39,560
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, all the time, and perpetuity.

2543
02:12:39,760 --> 02:12:42,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's it's good.

2544
02:12:43,000 --> 02:12:43,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2545
02:12:43,600 --> 02:12:47,800
Speaker 2: And after the bloody coup that that Kissinger and Nixon endorsed,

2546
02:12:48,080 --> 02:12:53,200
Speaker 2: Kissinger pushed to recognize Pinochet's coup government and offered economic aid.

2547
02:12:53,720 --> 02:12:53,880
Speaker 1: Uh.

2548
02:12:53,920 --> 02:12:57,240
Speaker 2: He pressured international lending organizations to lend money to the

2549
02:12:57,280 --> 02:13:00,400
Speaker 2: new Chilean government. Yeah, he sucks. This is a thing

2550
02:13:00,440 --> 02:13:02,840
Speaker 2: that he did. You can hear a lot more about it.

2551
02:13:02,880 --> 02:13:05,760
Speaker 2: And honestly, Kissinger's was involved, but like the Doulas Brothers

2552
02:13:05,760 --> 02:13:08,440
Speaker 2: were a much bigger part of this specific thing. So

2553
02:13:08,520 --> 02:13:10,840
Speaker 2: check that out in our Dollst Brothers episode.

2554
02:13:10,480 --> 02:13:16,520
Speaker 1: All this with Raquel Welch on his arm, Jill Saint

2555
02:13:16,600 --> 02:13:17,760
Speaker 1: John I love the way you.

2556
02:13:18,080 --> 02:13:20,800
Speaker 2: Actually the woman he does marry, Nancy McGinnis, who is

2557
02:13:20,880 --> 02:13:24,320
Speaker 2: also a fairly prominent person, is a huge fan of

2558
02:13:24,360 --> 02:13:28,240
Speaker 2: the overthrowing of the Chilean government. Henry, his wife is

2559
02:13:28,360 --> 02:13:29,760
Speaker 2: like more hardcore right wingman.

2560
02:13:29,800 --> 02:13:30,960
Speaker 1: He has come to bed.

2561
02:13:32,720 --> 02:13:34,800
Speaker 2: Tell me about how you ignored the will of the

2562
02:13:34,880 --> 02:13:39,720
Speaker 2: Chilean voters, Henry. Oh, yeah, So I don't know much

2563
02:13:39,760 --> 02:13:42,760
Speaker 2: about the working relationship Henry had with Jerry Ford, honestly,

2564
02:13:42,800 --> 02:13:44,800
Speaker 2: Like they didn't spend a lot of time together. We're

2565
02:13:44,800 --> 02:13:47,240
Speaker 2: not going to delve super deep into it. There were

2566
02:13:47,280 --> 02:13:51,760
Speaker 2: like too much to talk about. Still, there is one

2567
02:13:51,760 --> 02:13:54,040
Speaker 2: thing I want to note about his relationship with with

2568
02:13:54,160 --> 02:13:56,880
Speaker 2: kiss with Nixon, Like, for the first several years that

2569
02:13:56,920 --> 02:13:59,720
Speaker 2: he's working with Nixon, He's desperate to go to Camp David.

2570
02:13:59,720 --> 02:14:02,160
Speaker 2: Any time the President invites him, He's excited to go.

2571
02:14:02,560 --> 02:14:04,440
Speaker 2: But then when the Watergate thing is going on and

2572
02:14:04,520 --> 02:14:07,480
Speaker 2: Nixon feels isolated and alone, Kissinger spends like the whole

2573
02:14:07,520 --> 02:14:10,880
Speaker 2: Watergate hearing time jetting around the Middle East and stuff

2574
02:14:10,880 --> 02:14:12,960
Speaker 2: doing diplomacy, and Nixon begs him like.

2575
02:14:13,080 --> 02:14:14,760
Speaker 1: Do you want to come hang out at Camp David

2576
02:14:14,760 --> 02:14:15,000
Speaker 1: with me?

2577
02:14:15,160 --> 02:14:18,000
Speaker 2: And Henry's like, oh, buddy, I'd love to, but you know,

2578
02:14:18,440 --> 02:14:21,000
Speaker 2: sounds so I just got so much worse.

2579
02:14:21,080 --> 02:14:24,120
Speaker 1: I'm swamped over here with stuff. You know, it's like

2580
02:14:24,520 --> 02:14:28,520
Speaker 1: such a wirmund gosh.

2581
02:14:27,720 --> 02:14:31,040
Speaker 2: It's amazing that there's a moment at this where you're like, oh, man, Dick,

2582
02:14:31,080 --> 02:14:32,080
Speaker 2: he did you dirty?

2583
02:14:32,040 --> 02:14:34,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not Yeah, you're such a friend to him,

2584
02:14:34,400 --> 02:14:37,080
Speaker 1: a little bit of sympathy for n Do you want

2585
02:14:37,080 --> 02:14:39,560
Speaker 1: to come to summer camp David with me? I can't.

2586
02:14:40,080 --> 02:14:42,880
Speaker 1: I could really use a friend. I broke my arm.

2587
02:14:42,920 --> 02:14:46,040
Speaker 1: I can't get any medic budgets or anything this summer.

2588
02:14:46,120 --> 02:14:47,000
Speaker 1: My mom said, so.

2589
02:14:48,360 --> 02:14:54,200
Speaker 2: Oh man, it's amazing. So yeah, there's so much to

2590
02:14:54,240 --> 02:14:56,880
Speaker 2: talk about. I will tell you. I will note that

2591
02:14:56,880 --> 02:14:59,160
Speaker 2: one of the first things that Henry did as Secretary

2592
02:14:59,160 --> 02:15:02,960
Speaker 2: of State for President Ford was to deliberately enable another genocide,

2593
02:15:02,960 --> 02:15:05,560
Speaker 2: which put him just one genocide away from earning a

2594
02:15:05,600 --> 02:15:07,280
Speaker 2: free coffee at the Pentagon Starbucks.

2595
02:15:07,320 --> 02:15:11,800
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, he's close. He's close. He's close.

2596
02:15:12,640 --> 02:15:14,280
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about that, but you know, we

2597
02:15:14,320 --> 02:15:17,160
Speaker 2: got to talk about right now products and services that

2598
02:15:17,200 --> 02:15:23,600
Speaker 2: support this podcast. Finally, he including Starbucks, commit five genocides,

2599
02:15:23,680 --> 02:15:26,480
Speaker 2: and Starbucks will fund to six if it reduces the

2600
02:15:26,520 --> 02:15:27,560
Speaker 2: price of coffee.

2601
02:15:27,280 --> 02:15:35,920
Speaker 1: Bee make sure as a venti. Oh, we're back. So.

2602
02:15:36,080 --> 02:15:39,160
Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty nine, the US conspired with the Indonesian

2603
02:15:39,200 --> 02:15:43,000
Speaker 2: dictator Suharto to encourage the illegal annexation of West Papa

2604
02:15:43,200 --> 02:15:46,080
Speaker 2: through what was called the Act of Free Choice. This

2605
02:15:46,240 --> 02:15:49,200
Speaker 2: was a shameless propaganda exercise which allowed the United States

2606
02:15:49,240 --> 02:15:51,520
Speaker 2: to pretend democracy. Rah rah rai, you get the idea.

2607
02:15:51,920 --> 02:15:54,120
Speaker 2: Behind the scenes support by the US at the u

2608
02:15:54,160 --> 02:15:57,800
Speaker 2: WIN allowed Suharto to solidify his control on West Papa.

2609
02:15:57,960 --> 02:16:00,920
Speaker 2: This led to four decades of geniside policies which have

2610
02:16:01,000 --> 02:16:05,040
Speaker 2: killed huge numbers of the Popuin population. Six years later,

2611
02:16:05,160 --> 02:16:08,880
Speaker 2: Suharto had another fun idea. East Timor was nearby and

2612
02:16:08,960 --> 02:16:11,120
Speaker 2: near the end of a twenty seven year long process

2613
02:16:11,120 --> 02:16:15,120
Speaker 2: of being decolonized by Portugal. Having just been ruled pretty

2614
02:16:15,160 --> 02:16:17,720
Speaker 2: brutally in the name of capital, you'll be surprised to

2615
02:16:17,760 --> 02:16:21,560
Speaker 2: hear that the East Timorese people were somewhat sympathetic towards socialism.

2616
02:16:21,960 --> 02:16:26,800
Speaker 2: The leftist Friedland Freight Fretilan Fredolin Party began to gain

2617
02:16:26,880 --> 02:16:30,000
Speaker 2: ground as freedom grew near In nineteen seventy five, it

2618
02:16:30,040 --> 02:16:32,440
Speaker 2: had a brief civil war with the much smaller right

2619
02:16:32,480 --> 02:16:37,000
Speaker 2: wing Pro Indonesian Party. This freaked out Portugal, who pulled

2620
02:16:37,000 --> 02:16:39,160
Speaker 2: their last people out of the country during the fighting.

2621
02:16:39,520 --> 02:16:43,480
Speaker 2: Seeing the territory abandoned, General Suharto felt he had an opportunity.

2622
02:16:43,840 --> 02:16:46,440
Speaker 2: He and others in the Indonesian military began to complain

2623
02:16:46,480 --> 02:16:49,120
Speaker 2: to the Americans that East Timor might be used as

2624
02:16:49,160 --> 02:16:53,960
Speaker 2: a base for dastardly communists to inspire secessionist movements in Indonesia.

2625
02:16:54,440 --> 02:16:58,840
Speaker 1: Over in it's just like, you know, East Timor seems

2626
02:16:58,879 --> 02:17:01,119
Speaker 1: like it's going to be really bad. Oh, we gotta

2627
02:17:01,200 --> 02:17:03,000
Speaker 1: tell them, we gotta get rid of them.

2628
02:17:03,240 --> 02:17:06,439
Speaker 2: I'm like the side of this. Over in East Timor. Fritlin,

2629
02:17:06,680 --> 02:17:09,800
Speaker 2: the Socialist de Party recognized the fact that they were

2630
02:17:09,800 --> 02:17:12,040
Speaker 2: in danger. They had their oh we're in danger moment,

2631
02:17:12,440 --> 02:17:15,320
Speaker 2: and they declared their independence on November twenty eighth, nineteen

2632
02:17:15,360 --> 02:17:17,400
Speaker 2: seventy five, so they could ask for help from the

2633
02:17:17,480 --> 02:17:22,120
Speaker 2: United Nations. Everyone ignored them. Japan, a major investor in Indonesia,

2634
02:17:22,120 --> 02:17:25,480
Speaker 2: twiddled her thumbs. Australia looked away. This left the United

2635
02:17:25,480 --> 02:17:28,360
Speaker 2: States as the only power that could potentially stop Indonesia

2636
02:17:28,400 --> 02:17:29,760
Speaker 2: from invading more.

2637
02:17:30,600 --> 02:17:31,240
Speaker 1: Do we do it?

2638
02:17:31,920 --> 02:17:34,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did it. Everything's good. Now they're doing great.

2639
02:17:34,840 --> 02:17:35,840
Speaker 2: They're flying cars.

2640
02:17:38,120 --> 02:17:41,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. How many times do we have to be the heroes? Yeah?

2641
02:17:42,320 --> 02:17:44,720
Speaker 1: Another job well done for the United States.

2642
02:17:47,560 --> 02:17:50,240
Speaker 2: On December sixth, nineteen seventy five, on the eve of

2643
02:17:50,280 --> 02:17:53,200
Speaker 2: the planned invasion, Gerald Ford and Henry Kissinger flew to

2644
02:17:53,280 --> 02:17:56,959
Speaker 2: Jakarta to meet with Suharto. The very next day, Indonesian land,

2645
02:17:56,959 --> 02:18:00,000
Speaker 2: Air and Naval Force is invaded. The timing is predominant,

2646
02:18:00,560 --> 02:18:03,000
Speaker 2: predominant enough that people have debated ever since whether or

2647
02:18:03,080 --> 02:18:06,280
Speaker 2: not Kissinger and Ford gave Suharto the green light here too,

2648
02:18:06,840 --> 02:18:09,800
Speaker 2: from a rite up in the nation. Kissinger, who does

2649
02:18:09,840 --> 02:18:12,160
Speaker 2: not find room to mention East timor even in the

2650
02:18:12,200 --> 02:18:14,960
Speaker 2: index of his three volume memoir, has more than once

2651
02:18:15,000 --> 02:18:17,080
Speaker 2: stated that the invasion came to him as a surprise

2652
02:18:17,320 --> 02:18:19,080
Speaker 2: and that he barely knew of the existence of the

2653
02:18:19,120 --> 02:18:22,840
Speaker 2: timeorees question. He was obviously lying, but the breathtaking extent

2654
02:18:22,920 --> 02:18:25,680
Speaker 2: of his mendacity has only just become fully apparent with

2655
02:18:25,720 --> 02:18:29,440
Speaker 2: the declassification of a secret State Department telegram. The document,

2656
02:18:29,440 --> 02:18:31,720
Speaker 2: which has been made public by the National Security Archive

2657
02:18:31,720 --> 02:18:34,800
Speaker 2: at George Washington University, contains a verbatim record of the

2658
02:18:34,840 --> 02:18:38,760
Speaker 2: conversation among Suharto, Ford, and Kissinger. We want your understanding

2659
02:18:38,800 --> 02:18:41,560
Speaker 2: if we deem it necessary to take rapid or drastic action,

2660
02:18:41,680 --> 02:18:44,800
Speaker 2: Suharto opened bluntly, We will understand and will not press

2661
02:18:44,800 --> 02:18:47,600
Speaker 2: you on the issue. Ford responded, we understand the problem

2662
02:18:47,720 --> 02:18:50,480
Speaker 2: you have and the intentions you have. Kissinger was even

2663
02:18:50,520 --> 02:18:53,160
Speaker 2: more emphatic, but had an awareness of the possible spin

2664
02:18:53,320 --> 02:18:56,240
Speaker 2: problems back home. It is important that whatever you do

2665
02:18:56,360 --> 02:18:59,400
Speaker 2: succeeds quickly, he instructed the despot. We would be able

2666
02:18:59,400 --> 02:19:02,720
Speaker 2: to influence the reaction if whatever happens happens after we return.

2667
02:19:03,000 --> 02:19:05,000
Speaker 2: If you have made plans, we will do our best

2668
02:19:05,000 --> 02:19:09,039
Speaker 2: to keep everyone quiet until the president returns home. Micromanaging

2669
02:19:09,080 --> 02:19:12,480
Speaker 2: things for Suharto, he added, the president will be back

2670
02:19:12,520 --> 02:19:15,400
Speaker 2: on Monday at two pm Jakarta time. We understand your

2671
02:19:15,400 --> 02:19:17,040
Speaker 2: problem and they need to move quickly, but I am

2672
02:19:17,040 --> 02:19:19,160
Speaker 2: only saying it would be better if we're done after

2673
02:19:19,200 --> 02:19:19,879
Speaker 2: we returned.

2674
02:19:20,320 --> 02:19:22,640
Speaker 1: Worst case scenario, I'll just say I never said this,

2675
02:19:22,720 --> 02:19:26,160
Speaker 1: and nobody will ever have a Trenscoo said anything. I

2676
02:19:26,200 --> 02:19:28,640
Speaker 1: mean to be scheduling it like a yeah, like a

2677
02:19:28,760 --> 02:19:29,840
Speaker 1: golf day.

2678
02:19:30,040 --> 02:19:32,520
Speaker 2: Can you crack down on the independence and freedom of

2679
02:19:32,560 --> 02:19:34,560
Speaker 2: these people and engage in a gena sudtle war like

2680
02:19:34,600 --> 02:19:36,359
Speaker 2: once we're back, there's.

2681
02:19:36,200 --> 02:19:39,120
Speaker 1: A lot that went on. Three or like four on

2682
02:19:39,160 --> 02:19:43,000
Speaker 1: Monday would be great, Tuesday would be unbelievable. Tuesday would

2683
02:19:43,959 --> 02:19:48,600
Speaker 1: like that's a lot of time. Yeah, I thought it

2684
02:19:48,640 --> 02:19:51,520
Speaker 1: was a Workout's right. Yeah, there's a lot of US

2685
02:19:51,640 --> 02:19:55,120
Speaker 1: fuckery in fucking Indonesia. Sorry, I'm not going to hear this, gentlemen.

2686
02:19:55,680 --> 02:19:58,720
Speaker 1: That's enough of that talk place the greatest country on Earth.

2687
02:19:58,959 --> 02:20:02,480
Speaker 2: You do have that, and Indonesia and the United States shaking

2688
02:20:02,520 --> 02:20:05,359
Speaker 2: hands over a burning East timor tattoo over your heart.

2689
02:20:05,440 --> 02:20:10,880
Speaker 1: Well, I would hate for that that speculation, and please

2690
02:20:10,920 --> 02:20:13,440
Speaker 1: cut that out, Sophy. Can we make a note that

2691
02:20:13,440 --> 02:20:15,199
Speaker 1: that should not be included in the episode. It seems

2692
02:20:15,200 --> 02:20:16,039
Speaker 1: a little incriminating.

2693
02:20:16,120 --> 02:20:18,760
Speaker 2: So Suharto's troops when they invaded east to More, which

2694
02:20:18,760 --> 02:20:21,600
Speaker 2: they did, we're equipped with the finest US made weaponry.

2695
02:20:22,000 --> 02:20:25,160
Speaker 2: Under the Foreign Assistance Act, such material could only be

2696
02:20:25,160 --> 02:20:28,040
Speaker 2: provided to nations who would use it exclusively for self defense.

2697
02:20:28,440 --> 02:20:30,920
Speaker 2: When this was brought up to Suharto, and when this

2698
02:20:31,000 --> 02:20:32,920
Speaker 2: was brought up to Kissinger, and he was asked whether

2699
02:20:33,040 --> 02:20:35,680
Speaker 2: or not selling arms to Suharto had violated the act,

2700
02:20:36,040 --> 02:20:39,200
Speaker 2: Kissinger responded, it depends on how we construe it, whether

2701
02:20:39,240 --> 02:20:41,680
Speaker 2: it is in self defense or it is a foreign operation.

2702
02:20:42,640 --> 02:20:45,240
Speaker 2: Back in DC on December eighteenth and a meeting his

2703
02:20:45,280 --> 02:20:47,960
Speaker 2: minutes are now to classified, Kissinger admitted that he knew

2704
02:20:48,000 --> 02:20:52,600
Speaker 2: that he and the United States we're violating the statute

2705
02:20:52,680 --> 02:20:55,320
Speaker 2: from the nation. And even more sinister note was struck

2706
02:20:55,360 --> 02:20:58,120
Speaker 2: later in the conversation, when Kissinger asked Suharto if he

2707
02:20:58,160 --> 02:21:01,480
Speaker 2: expected a long guerrilla war. The dictator replied that there

2708
02:21:01,520 --> 02:21:04,000
Speaker 2: will probably be a small guerrilla war, while making no

2709
02:21:04,080 --> 02:21:06,840
Speaker 2: promise about its duration. Bear in mind that Kissinger has

2710
02:21:06,879 --> 02:21:10,800
Speaker 2: already urged speech and dispatch urged speed and dispatch upon Suharto.

2711
02:21:11,120 --> 02:21:14,480
Speaker 2: Adam Mallik, Indonesia's Prime minister at the time, later conceded

2712
02:21:14,520 --> 02:21:17,280
Speaker 2: in public that between fifty thousand and eighty thousand Timorary

2713
02:21:17,360 --> 02:21:20,320
Speaker 2: civilians were killed in the first eighteen months of the occupation.

2714
02:21:20,760 --> 02:21:24,000
Speaker 2: These civilians were killed with American weapons, which Kissinger contrived

2715
02:21:24,040 --> 02:21:27,000
Speaker 2: to supply over congressional protests, and their murders were covered

2716
02:21:27,080 --> 02:21:28,320
Speaker 2: up by American diplomacy.

2717
02:21:28,520 --> 02:21:32,600
Speaker 1: Sough, I mean we did it again. We did it again. Gus.

2718
02:21:33,280 --> 02:21:37,320
Speaker 1: It really it really is like it's it's like a

2719
02:21:37,480 --> 02:21:41,640
Speaker 1: like a serial killer who just gets very comfortable with killing,

2720
02:21:42,160 --> 02:21:45,320
Speaker 1: gets kind of cocky about it, starts leaving clues. But

2721
02:21:45,400 --> 02:21:48,800
Speaker 1: in this case, there's no cops chasing anyone. There's nobody

2722
02:21:48,840 --> 02:21:51,400
Speaker 1: who's really trying to solve the case. It's like if

2723
02:21:51,440 --> 02:21:54,600
Speaker 1: the UNI bomber left his name on every package. Yeah,

2724
02:21:54,640 --> 02:21:58,680
Speaker 1: and that was like, this is okay a return address, yeah.

2725
02:22:00,120 --> 02:22:03,240
Speaker 1: Kazinski Shack nine.

2726
02:22:03,879 --> 02:22:07,920
Speaker 2: Roughly three hundred thousand East Timmerise civilians, roughly half the population,

2727
02:22:08,040 --> 02:22:10,280
Speaker 2: were forced out of their homes and into camps during

2728
02:22:10,280 --> 02:22:12,760
Speaker 2: the fighting. By nineteen eighty, the death toll was at

2729
02:22:12,840 --> 02:22:15,359
Speaker 2: least one hundred thousand, and possibly as high as two.

2730
02:22:15,200 --> 02:22:16,240
Speaker 1: Hundred thirty thousand.

2731
02:22:16,720 --> 02:22:19,240
Speaker 2: Thomas Meanie, writing in The New Yorker, has tried to

2732
02:22:19,240 --> 02:22:22,720
Speaker 2: make sense of this all. Kissinger's sign off on the

2733
02:22:22,720 --> 02:22:26,400
Speaker 2: Indonesian President Suharto's genocidal campaign in East Timor was meant

2734
02:22:26,440 --> 02:22:29,560
Speaker 2: to signal that America would unquestioningly reward those who had

2735
02:22:29,600 --> 02:22:33,440
Speaker 2: decimated communists within their reach. In retrospect, the notion that

2736
02:22:33,520 --> 02:22:36,440
Speaker 2: everything America did would be duly registered and responded to

2737
02:22:36,480 --> 02:22:39,160
Speaker 2: by its opponents and friends seems like an expression of

2738
02:22:39,200 --> 02:22:42,800
Speaker 2: geopolitical narcissism. At the time, the thirty three year old

2739
02:22:42,800 --> 02:22:46,280
Speaker 2: Senator Joe Biden accused Kissinger at a Senate hearing of

2740
02:22:46,280 --> 02:22:50,000
Speaker 2: trying to promulgate a global Monroe doctrine. The Kissinger is

2741
02:22:50,040 --> 02:22:52,879
Speaker 2: that guide to where repeatedly terrible people will be like, well,

2742
02:22:52,920 --> 02:22:55,200
Speaker 2: you're in the right here, but only because you're talking

2743
02:22:55,200 --> 02:22:56,359
Speaker 2: about Henry Kissinger.

2744
02:22:58,640 --> 02:23:01,959
Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, He's like, yeah, it's like.

2745
02:23:01,959 --> 02:23:04,000
Speaker 2: In the next episode, we're gonna have a moment where

2746
02:23:04,000 --> 02:23:06,120
Speaker 2: the CIA is a voice of reason to give you

2747
02:23:06,240 --> 02:23:07,119
Speaker 2: an idea.

2748
02:23:06,800 --> 02:23:09,600
Speaker 1: Of with six and how many people have to be

2749
02:23:09,640 --> 02:23:13,080
Speaker 1: the voice of reason. I mean, it just is like

2750
02:23:13,640 --> 02:23:17,320
Speaker 1: he's like cocky. I mean, it's just they just no

2751
02:23:17,560 --> 02:23:20,760
Speaker 1: shit's given at this point to have no I mean,

2752
02:23:20,800 --> 02:23:22,760
Speaker 1: it's not like he's had a soul throughout all of this.

2753
02:23:22,959 --> 02:23:25,040
Speaker 1: But you would think that once you have a soul

2754
02:23:25,160 --> 02:23:27,400
Speaker 1: for such a long period of time, you would start

2755
02:23:27,440 --> 02:23:29,840
Speaker 1: to notice the absence of a soul and at least

2756
02:23:29,840 --> 02:23:31,640
Speaker 1: start to act like you had a soul.

2757
02:23:31,800 --> 02:23:35,160
Speaker 2: Well, good news, Gareth, nothing like that ever happens. Oh

2758
02:23:35,240 --> 02:23:36,199
Speaker 2: fucking great.

2759
02:23:38,080 --> 02:23:38,680
Speaker 1: Yeah we are.

2760
02:23:38,760 --> 02:23:42,720
Speaker 2: We're gonna have fun in episode six. But you know,

2761
02:23:43,040 --> 02:23:46,160
Speaker 2: now it's time to just chill out, you know, have

2762
02:23:46,240 --> 02:23:49,440
Speaker 2: a drink of just a nice sip of the blood

2763
02:23:49,600 --> 02:23:55,040
Speaker 2: of I don't know, East Timmeri's dissonance, and uh go

2764
02:23:55,400 --> 02:24:00,720
Speaker 2: watch the Theronose documentary. Yeah, Henry Kissinger get cooked by fucking.

2765
02:24:01,320 --> 02:24:04,840
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, you need only only like I forget

2766
02:24:04,879 --> 02:24:07,959
Speaker 1: who said it, but that's true. That's our hero. She's

2767
02:24:08,000 --> 02:24:10,879
Speaker 1: our hero Niko who was like, hey, yeah you can,

2768
02:24:11,440 --> 02:24:14,359
Speaker 1: we can do this with your blood at Walgreens because

2769
02:24:15,160 --> 02:24:19,000
Speaker 1: she got Henry Kissinger involved. And I mean just's he's

2770
02:24:19,040 --> 02:24:22,480
Speaker 1: not It's not like he's not a genius. There's just

2771
02:24:22,680 --> 02:24:25,440
Speaker 1: not a lot of genius. It takes to just be

2772
02:24:25,680 --> 02:24:30,200
Speaker 1: awful and indiscriminate. Yeah, he's just like he's networker of

2773
02:24:30,240 --> 02:24:30,800
Speaker 1: all time.

2774
02:24:30,879 --> 02:24:35,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and here's the thing. Episode six, we're going to

2775
02:24:35,040 --> 02:24:38,960
Speaker 2: talk about his political downfall because he does get his comeuppance,

2776
02:24:39,560 --> 02:24:43,400
Speaker 2: but it's from people who suck maybe even worse at

2777
02:24:43,480 --> 02:24:45,840
Speaker 2: least as bad as he does, and so there's no

2778
02:24:45,920 --> 02:24:47,000
Speaker 2: satisfaction in it.

2779
02:24:47,080 --> 02:24:49,440
Speaker 1: Like and he's also it's also it's like.

2780
02:24:49,640 --> 02:24:52,879
Speaker 2: Hitler had gotten assassinated by Hitler two, who had been

2781
02:24:53,040 --> 02:24:54,640
Speaker 2: like expanded.

2782
02:24:54,720 --> 02:24:57,640
Speaker 1: And it's also by people who are like they're there

2783
02:24:57,680 --> 02:25:00,600
Speaker 1: because of him, Like they like he had to walk

2784
02:25:00,640 --> 02:25:01,160
Speaker 1: so they could.

2785
02:25:01,240 --> 02:25:05,120
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, exactly, Yes, there's someone needs to paint a

2786
02:25:05,160 --> 02:25:07,320
Speaker 2: picture of like Henry Kissinger kind of on the bow

2787
02:25:07,360 --> 02:25:10,840
Speaker 2: of the Titanic holding up Dick Cheney with.

2788
02:25:10,879 --> 02:25:14,160
Speaker 1: Our arms right red white. Oh that feels nice, that

2789
02:25:14,240 --> 02:25:18,240
Speaker 1: feels real nice, Henry, you are so you love your form?

2790
02:25:18,320 --> 02:25:21,680
Speaker 2: Let me paint you Kissinger walked so that Donald Rumps

2791
02:25:21,680 --> 02:25:29,359
Speaker 2: felt could stagger. Yes, Oh, but that's gonna be part

2792
02:25:29,640 --> 02:25:33,840
Speaker 2: six till then, Dave what Gareth.

2793
02:25:34,959 --> 02:25:41,480
Speaker 1: I want to drink? Like Nixon? We uh again, look

2794
02:25:41,520 --> 02:25:42,800
Speaker 1: at what capitalism gets U.

2795
02:25:43,800 --> 02:25:44,000
Speaker 13: Yeah.

2796
02:25:44,040 --> 02:25:47,359
Speaker 1: We we will be invading the shores of Australia searching

2797
02:25:47,400 --> 02:25:49,760
Speaker 1: for their WMDs, which we believe in north, South, East

2798
02:25:49,800 --> 02:25:54,360
Speaker 1: and West. You can go to dolloppodcast dot com and uh,

2799
02:25:54,440 --> 02:25:56,560
Speaker 1: I'll be also doing stand up over there, and you

2800
02:25:56,560 --> 02:25:58,680
Speaker 1: can go to Gareth Reynolds dot com for those stand

2801
02:25:58,720 --> 02:26:02,520
Speaker 1: up dates. And we're also touring America this summer. Sorry,

2802
02:26:02,640 --> 02:26:06,480
Speaker 1: we're touring the best country on Earth this summer, and

2803
02:26:06,560 --> 02:26:08,480
Speaker 1: you can go to Dollar podcast dot com for all

2804
02:26:08,480 --> 02:26:09,120
Speaker 1: that information.

2805
02:26:09,400 --> 02:26:12,039
Speaker 2: Now I should note here y'all that that you guys

2806
02:26:12,040 --> 02:26:15,800
Speaker 2: have an ongoing, uh an ongoing argument over over whether

2807
02:26:15,879 --> 02:26:18,040
Speaker 2: or not Gere is an appropriate nickname for you. Gareth,

2808
02:26:18,080 --> 02:26:20,680
Speaker 2: and I felt like maybe we could bring in a

2809
02:26:20,760 --> 02:26:23,560
Speaker 2: negotiator to help us, to help us deal with this question.

2810
02:26:24,160 --> 02:26:27,600
Speaker 2: So I'd like to introduce to the Paul doctor Henry Kissings.

2811
02:26:27,640 --> 02:26:36,400
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm sorry, I said. I think gets great.

2812
02:26:36,400 --> 02:26:38,080
Speaker 1: I do look like a gooty a little bit.

2813
02:26:38,879 --> 02:26:40,120
Speaker 2: He's got his nice shorts on.

2814
02:26:41,160 --> 02:26:44,560
Speaker 1: He's got those nut huggers. You can see the outline.

2815
02:26:45,000 --> 02:26:49,000
Speaker 1: You can see the whole bread basket looks like a

2816
02:26:49,040 --> 02:26:52,039
Speaker 1: baby bird than the nest. No, but it comes a python.

2817
02:26:52,120 --> 02:26:57,879
Speaker 1: When the water starts. They should call me shout once

2818
02:26:57,959 --> 02:27:02,560
Speaker 1: the bombs hit the soil. I lived babies. I really

2819
02:27:02,600 --> 02:27:07,320
Speaker 1: hope people stop listening, so desperately I stopped listening and

2820
02:27:07,360 --> 02:27:07,880
Speaker 1: I'm talking.

2821
02:27:10,840 --> 02:27:13,359
Speaker 2: All right, everybody, all right, We'll see you on Thursday.

2822
02:27:19,480 --> 02:27:20,720
Speaker 1: So this is episode six.

2823
02:27:20,840 --> 02:27:23,960
Speaker 2: You know, we're what eight hours into talking about mister Kissinger.

2824
02:27:25,280 --> 02:27:28,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, we really meet me from eight hours ago. Buddy.

2825
02:27:29,360 --> 02:27:31,320
Speaker 1: It's like when Bill and Ted meet each other halfway

2826
02:27:31,320 --> 02:27:34,960
Speaker 1: through and they know another journey they're about to go upon. Yeah, buddy,

2827
02:27:34,959 --> 02:27:35,600
Speaker 1: backle up.

2828
02:27:36,600 --> 02:27:39,080
Speaker 2: So the things, the thing that Kissinger gets the most

2829
02:27:39,080 --> 02:27:41,400
Speaker 2: credit for that we haven't mentioned. We've talked about a

2830
02:27:41,400 --> 02:27:43,640
Speaker 2: bunch of the things that he gets credit for is

2831
02:27:43,640 --> 02:27:46,840
Speaker 2: bringing peace to the Middle East. He does get credit

2832
02:27:46,879 --> 02:27:50,360
Speaker 2: for being that guy. Obviously he did not do that,

2833
02:27:50,800 --> 02:27:53,240
Speaker 2: but he did play a significant role in stopping what

2834
02:27:53,320 --> 02:27:56,119
Speaker 2: had been a decades long cycle of wars between Israel

2835
02:27:56,200 --> 02:27:58,720
Speaker 2: and the Arab nations around it. Now, to call that

2836
02:27:58,760 --> 02:28:00,960
Speaker 2: bringing peace would be ignored ing a tremendous amount of

2837
02:28:01,000 --> 02:28:04,600
Speaker 2: ongoing violence against the Palestinian people. But Kissinger did help

2838
02:28:04,720 --> 02:28:06,360
Speaker 2: ensure like you know how, they were all these different

2839
02:28:06,400 --> 02:28:08,520
Speaker 2: like everyone would invade, YadA, YadA, YadA, there'd be a

2840
02:28:08,560 --> 02:28:11,320
Speaker 2: bunch of fighting. That doesn't really happen anymore. And Kissinger

2841
02:28:11,400 --> 02:28:14,280
Speaker 2: is part of why that doesn't happen anymore. Okay, The

2842
02:28:14,360 --> 02:28:17,320
Speaker 2: gist of it is that on October sixth, nineteen seventy three,

2843
02:28:17,720 --> 02:28:22,680
Speaker 2: on Yam Kapor, Egypt and Syria launched a coordinated assault

2844
02:28:22,680 --> 02:28:25,760
Speaker 2: on Israel that for a time threatened the state's very existence.

2845
02:28:26,320 --> 02:28:28,879
Speaker 2: Kissinger had not spent much of his time working on

2846
02:28:28,959 --> 02:28:31,200
Speaker 2: Mid East related stuff up to this point. This was

2847
02:28:31,200 --> 02:28:33,880
Speaker 2: partly because Nixon thought having a Jewish man negotiate with

2848
02:28:33,920 --> 02:28:37,360
Speaker 2: Arab countries would be a bad idea. It was also

2849
02:28:37,440 --> 02:28:40,120
Speaker 2: because Kissinger was kind of buried in Vietnam stuff.

2850
02:28:40,200 --> 02:28:40,400
Speaker 1: Right.

2851
02:28:40,760 --> 02:28:44,560
Speaker 2: But by October of seventy three, negotiations with Hanoi had

2852
02:28:44,560 --> 02:28:48,119
Speaker 2: been concluded, US forces had stepped back from an active role,

2853
02:28:48,320 --> 02:28:50,879
Speaker 2: and Kissinger had been awarded a Nobel Peace Prize with

2854
02:28:50,879 --> 02:28:52,800
Speaker 2: his Vietnamese counterpart Lee duc To.

2855
02:28:53,440 --> 02:28:58,000
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, now, I can't. There's no counter argument. Absolutely no,

2856
02:28:58,240 --> 02:29:02,680
Speaker 1: he nailed it. I mean, now the Nobel Peace Prize

2857
02:29:02,760 --> 02:29:05,080
Speaker 1: really doesn't. I mean, they must hit sometimes. I'm just

2858
02:29:05,120 --> 02:29:07,160
Speaker 1: familiar with a lot of the nose, though.

2859
02:29:07,080 --> 02:29:09,920
Speaker 2: It seems mostly to be missus in my experience.

2860
02:29:10,680 --> 02:29:15,400
Speaker 1: When he got that, that's called the no. Yeah.

2861
02:29:15,600 --> 02:29:18,480
Speaker 2: And you know who felt that way, Gareth Lee duc Toe,

2862
02:29:18,520 --> 02:29:21,240
Speaker 2: who was also awarded the Noble Kissinger.

2863
02:29:21,560 --> 02:29:23,800
Speaker 1: I don't want mine. I don't want mine. Yeah.

2864
02:29:24,440 --> 02:29:26,760
Speaker 2: He literally was like, no, I'm not going to take it.

2865
02:29:26,840 --> 02:29:29,560
Speaker 2: The war isn't over yet. Like all he's done. All

2866
02:29:29,560 --> 02:29:32,840
Speaker 2: we've done is negotiate the US no longer murdering people

2867
02:29:33,160 --> 02:29:34,480
Speaker 2: on the scale they had been.

2868
02:29:34,640 --> 02:29:35,920
Speaker 1: And he's in charge of it.

2869
02:29:36,040 --> 02:29:39,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, And specifically he was angry because right before the

2870
02:29:39,520 --> 02:29:43,160
Speaker 2: armistice was signed, in order to try and force Hanoi

2871
02:29:43,320 --> 02:29:47,279
Speaker 2: to agree on some points, Kissinger orchestrated a massive nighttime

2872
02:29:47,320 --> 02:29:51,800
Speaker 2: bombing campaign on Christmas of Hanoi. They didn't bomb on

2873
02:29:51,879 --> 02:29:53,760
Speaker 2: Christmas Day, just the day before and a bunch of

2874
02:29:53,800 --> 02:29:55,800
Speaker 2: the days after, but it gets called the Christmas bombing.

2875
02:29:55,879 --> 02:30:02,280
Speaker 1: We'll hit sa jolly blood on my hands.

2876
02:30:04,640 --> 02:30:07,760
Speaker 2: So Lee Docta was like, I don't. I'm not going

2877
02:30:07,840 --> 02:30:10,080
Speaker 2: to take it Award for Peace with this guy.

2878
02:30:10,400 --> 02:30:10,880
Speaker 1: Fuck him.

2879
02:30:11,959 --> 02:30:17,840
Speaker 2: So Kissinger accepted it alone. Oh my god, he's such

2880
02:30:17,840 --> 02:30:22,320
Speaker 2: a cool dear. He's such a cool dear. Wow, more

2881
02:30:22,360 --> 02:30:23,160
Speaker 2: credit for me.

2882
02:30:23,959 --> 02:30:26,120
Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm the only one who got it

2883
02:30:26,120 --> 02:30:28,640
Speaker 1: this year. I must be really good at this stuff.

2884
02:30:29,840 --> 02:30:33,279
Speaker 2: So yeah, he's like the Kanye of the Nobel Peace Price.

2885
02:30:33,440 --> 02:30:38,800
Speaker 1: Yeah right, right right, Sorry, you did great, But Kissinger

2886
02:30:38,879 --> 02:30:41,200
Speaker 1: had the best war of all time, of all time.

2887
02:30:41,520 --> 02:30:44,080
Speaker 2: It would have been really funny if Henry Kissinger had

2888
02:30:44,120 --> 02:30:47,080
Speaker 2: like shoved Taylor Swift off stage.

2889
02:30:47,680 --> 02:30:50,120
Speaker 1: You had a great war, you did great with peace,

2890
02:30:50,240 --> 02:30:53,120
Speaker 1: but come on, you're talking about the kid baby.

2891
02:30:54,520 --> 02:30:58,959
Speaker 2: So by October of seventy three, Kissinger is free and clear,

2892
02:30:59,040 --> 02:31:01,720
Speaker 2: and ready to get it on in the Middle East,

2893
02:31:01,959 --> 02:31:05,160
Speaker 2: and this actually went better than you might think. Weirdly enough,

2894
02:31:05,520 --> 02:31:09,120
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger was probably one of the fairest negotiators the

2895
02:31:09,200 --> 02:31:12,760
Speaker 2: United States ever sent into that conflict. In fact, he

2896
02:31:12,879 --> 02:31:15,520
Speaker 2: was more or less in constant tension with Israel because

2897
02:31:15,560 --> 02:31:18,119
Speaker 2: he would do stuff like try to halt arms shipments there,

2898
02:31:18,200 --> 02:31:20,760
Speaker 2: like during the amkipor war. Right Israel's on a backfoot,

2899
02:31:20,760 --> 02:31:23,879
Speaker 2: They're in real danger of being overrun. They want US

2900
02:31:24,000 --> 02:31:26,120
Speaker 2: weapons and like US arms and a bunch more F

2901
02:31:26,120 --> 02:31:29,640
Speaker 2: four Phantom planes, and Nixon agrees to give them to him.

2902
02:31:29,640 --> 02:31:32,360
Speaker 2: But Kissinger's like, we're not giving them anything until they

2903
02:31:32,400 --> 02:31:35,320
Speaker 2: can arrange for commercial flights to ship the weapons to them,

2904
02:31:35,600 --> 02:31:38,959
Speaker 2: because I don't want I'm trying to negotiate with Syria

2905
02:31:39,000 --> 02:31:42,240
Speaker 2: and Egypt, and if they see US military aircraft landing

2906
02:31:42,320 --> 02:31:45,880
Speaker 2: in Jerusalem to give the Israelis weapons, that's going to

2907
02:31:45,920 --> 02:31:49,640
Speaker 2: fuck up my negotiations. So like, he's actually really unpopular

2908
02:31:49,680 --> 02:31:51,240
Speaker 2: with a lot of folks in Israel because he does

2909
02:31:51,280 --> 02:31:55,520
Speaker 2: stuff like this. And in fact, Kissingers and obviously, like

2910
02:31:55,600 --> 02:31:58,640
Speaker 2: every US negotiator in this conflict, Kissinger is more on

2911
02:31:58,680 --> 02:32:01,320
Speaker 2: israel side than anyone, but it's probably fair to say

2912
02:32:01,320 --> 02:32:04,520
Speaker 2: he's less on israel side than any other negotiator we

2913
02:32:04,560 --> 02:32:07,039
Speaker 2: ever put in there, which is like some weird fascinating.

2914
02:32:07,200 --> 02:32:09,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, sounds like he's the most progressive because I mean,

2915
02:32:09,600 --> 02:32:11,800
Speaker 1: like obviously we have we could give a fuck now.

2916
02:32:11,920 --> 02:32:14,039
Speaker 1: You know, he's not a Zionist. For one thing.

2917
02:32:14,040 --> 02:32:16,400
Speaker 2: He doesn't have like there's not a you know, he's Jewish,

2918
02:32:16,400 --> 02:32:17,800
Speaker 2: but he's not really that.

2919
02:32:18,160 --> 02:32:19,520
Speaker 1: Like there there is some.

2920
02:32:19,440 --> 02:32:22,000
Speaker 2: Amount of, like as a Holocaust survivor, he believes strongly that,

2921
02:32:22,080 --> 02:32:24,680
Speaker 2: like you know, Israel needs to exist, so he does

2922
02:32:24,800 --> 02:32:27,440
Speaker 2: have that going for him. Again, he eventually agrees to

2923
02:32:27,480 --> 02:32:30,080
Speaker 2: ship them weapons on US planes after it becomes enough

2924
02:32:30,080 --> 02:32:31,160
Speaker 2: of an issue.

2925
02:32:31,040 --> 02:32:33,760
Speaker 1: But he like still is that moment of principles. The

2926
02:32:33,800 --> 02:32:37,680
Speaker 1: fact that there's like any of that at all is weird. Yeah,

2927
02:32:38,760 --> 02:32:40,720
Speaker 1: he probably had like a little Nixon on his shoulder,

2928
02:32:40,720 --> 02:32:42,400
Speaker 1: who was like, I know, you're just gonna be a

2929
02:32:42,480 --> 02:32:45,679
Speaker 1: jew about them. He was like, no, I will not

2930
02:32:45,800 --> 02:32:46,520
Speaker 1: devil Nixon.

2931
02:32:46,879 --> 02:32:49,200
Speaker 2: It's weird how plugged in you are to how Nixon

2932
02:32:49,280 --> 02:32:53,720
Speaker 2: reacts to everything exactly what the president.

2933
02:32:54,080 --> 02:32:57,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2934
02:32:57,760 --> 02:33:02,960
Speaker 2: Oh man, So Kissinger's best relationship in the Middle East

2935
02:33:03,240 --> 02:33:06,200
Speaker 2: wound up being with anwar sadat the president of Egypt.

2936
02:33:06,440 --> 02:33:09,680
Speaker 2: The two were legitimately good buddies. They would kiss each

2937
02:33:09,720 --> 02:33:17,560
Speaker 2: other on the cheek like they liked each other. Yeah. Meanwhile,

2938
02:33:17,640 --> 02:33:19,600
Speaker 2: Kissinger and gold in my Ear, which was the leader

2939
02:33:19,640 --> 02:33:23,600
Speaker 2: of Israel, had a really contentious relationship. At the end

2940
02:33:23,640 --> 02:33:25,920
Speaker 2: of the day, Kissinger again would always side with Israel

2941
02:33:25,959 --> 02:33:28,880
Speaker 2: on existential issues, but he wound up giving them a

2942
02:33:28,920 --> 02:33:30,400
Speaker 2: lot more shit than you might expect.

2943
02:33:30,480 --> 02:33:30,720
Speaker 1: Now.

2944
02:33:30,879 --> 02:33:33,320
Speaker 2: The fact that the US eventually sends in arms turns

2945
02:33:33,360 --> 02:33:36,280
Speaker 2: the war around for Israel, which allows their forces to

2946
02:33:36,280 --> 02:33:40,480
Speaker 2: deal decisive blows to Egyptian and Syrian militaries. But once

2947
02:33:40,560 --> 02:33:43,280
Speaker 2: Israel was out of kind of the period of most

2948
02:33:43,400 --> 02:33:46,200
Speaker 2: risk for them as a state, Kissinger starts to push

2949
02:33:46,200 --> 02:33:49,039
Speaker 2: back on them even harder. He's particularly enraged at the

2950
02:33:49,040 --> 02:33:51,080
Speaker 2: fact that they kept attacking while he was trying to

2951
02:33:51,080 --> 02:33:54,640
Speaker 2: negotiate a ceasefire. And again, his main concern here this

2952
02:33:54,680 --> 02:33:56,680
Speaker 2: is not because he just wants to stop the blood letting.

2953
02:33:57,240 --> 02:33:59,640
Speaker 2: It's really important to him to negotiate a piece and

2954
02:33:59,680 --> 02:34:02,040
Speaker 2: it be seen as Henry Kissinger brought peace to the

2955
02:34:02,040 --> 02:34:05,320
Speaker 2: the least, So he's pissed that they're fucking over his negotiations,

2956
02:34:05,520 --> 02:34:07,640
Speaker 2: and he cares more about his reputation than he does

2957
02:34:07,720 --> 02:34:09,199
Speaker 2: about Israeli military success.

2958
02:34:09,240 --> 02:34:11,400
Speaker 1: I'm forgetting about the people of Kissinger.

2959
02:34:11,040 --> 02:34:19,640
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, the real chosen people. So when Israeli forces

2960
02:34:19,680 --> 02:34:23,080
Speaker 2: surround the Egyptian Third Army and encircle at violating a ceasefire,

2961
02:34:23,160 --> 02:34:27,240
Speaker 2: Kissinger is livid, and he's particularly angry. We're not getting

2962
02:34:27,240 --> 02:34:29,440
Speaker 2: as much into this aspect of his beliefs, but his

2963
02:34:29,600 --> 02:34:31,720
Speaker 2: whole thing in this period, the reason he organ like

2964
02:34:31,760 --> 02:34:34,200
Speaker 2: as we talk about in our China episode, this like

2965
02:34:34,280 --> 02:34:36,880
Speaker 2: three way diplomacy thing that he deals with China and

2966
02:34:36,920 --> 02:34:40,680
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union. He wants what's called a balance of power.

2967
02:34:40,720 --> 02:34:43,480
Speaker 2: That's his whole Thing's he gets a he's a big

2968
02:34:43,520 --> 02:34:46,520
Speaker 2: cold warrior. Obviously he overthrows a lot of communist governments,

2969
02:34:46,879 --> 02:34:48,440
Speaker 2: but he's not one of these people who thinks we

2970
02:34:48,440 --> 02:34:52,080
Speaker 2: can eliminate communism. Instead, he really wants like this balance

2971
02:34:52,160 --> 02:34:54,040
Speaker 2: of power, and he wants a balance of power in

2972
02:34:54,080 --> 02:34:56,960
Speaker 2: the Middle East between Israel and her neighbors too. And

2973
02:34:57,000 --> 02:34:59,760
Speaker 2: he's livid about in part that they violated the ceasefire,

2974
02:34:59,800 --> 02:35:02,400
Speaker 2: but he also worried that like well, if the Israelis

2975
02:35:02,440 --> 02:35:05,400
Speaker 2: wipe out the Egyptian third Army, that's going to mean

2976
02:35:05,440 --> 02:35:08,800
Speaker 2: Egypt is humiliated. And if they're humiliated, Sadat can't actually

2977
02:35:08,800 --> 02:35:10,800
Speaker 2: make peace and there's going to be another war. And

2978
02:35:10,840 --> 02:35:15,120
Speaker 2: I want to try and stop the next war, which now, yeah,

2979
02:35:15,120 --> 02:35:17,800
Speaker 2: we're so good fruit but he is like broadly on

2980
02:35:17,959 --> 02:35:19,119
Speaker 2: the right side of this.

2981
02:35:20,840 --> 02:35:21,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2982
02:35:21,360 --> 02:35:24,560
Speaker 2: Over the course of several chaotic days, he makes numerous

2983
02:35:24,560 --> 02:35:27,200
Speaker 2: trips between each of the belligerent nations and this war,

2984
02:35:27,280 --> 02:35:29,640
Speaker 2: negotiating with their heads of state, and one of his

2985
02:35:29,720 --> 02:35:32,720
Speaker 2: primary tactics is to mock whoever he'd just been talking

2986
02:35:32,760 --> 02:35:35,200
Speaker 2: to when he's in front of the next person, so like.

2987
02:35:36,600 --> 02:35:41,080
Speaker 1: He is that guy, yeah.

2988
02:35:40,200 --> 02:35:43,120
Speaker 2: When he's so when he's dealing with hafes asad Or

2989
02:35:43,160 --> 02:35:45,840
Speaker 2: and war, Saddat this means talking shit about the Israelis

2990
02:35:45,879 --> 02:35:48,119
Speaker 2: and often Jewish people in general to get on their

2991
02:35:48,120 --> 02:35:52,960
Speaker 2: good side. So when Israel violates that ceasefire, he has

2992
02:35:53,040 --> 02:35:55,320
Speaker 2: heard to complain in a meeting quote, if it were

2993
02:35:55,360 --> 02:35:57,560
Speaker 2: not for the accident of my birth, I would be

2994
02:35:57,640 --> 02:35:58,560
Speaker 2: anti Semitic.

2995
02:35:58,840 --> 02:36:02,480
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Wow.

2996
02:36:07,840 --> 02:36:12,840
Speaker 2: On another occasion, he says, quote, and I need to

2997
02:36:12,840 --> 02:36:16,840
Speaker 2: remind you this is a Holocaust survivor saying this, boy,

2998
02:36:17,320 --> 02:36:20,160
Speaker 2: any people who have been persecuted for two thousand years

2999
02:36:20,240 --> 02:36:21,640
Speaker 2: must be doing something wrong.

3000
02:36:21,800 --> 02:36:27,680
Speaker 1: Oh Jesus Christ, he fucking said that. Wow, Holy shit, man,

3001
02:36:27,959 --> 02:36:32,880
Speaker 1: are just we are just such fucking assholes. This is

3002
02:36:33,000 --> 02:36:35,200
Speaker 1: I'm on fine, I'm just lifting right now. This is

3003
02:36:35,240 --> 02:36:39,240
Speaker 1: so good. Someone writers down, I'm wire tapping myself.

3004
02:36:39,280 --> 02:36:41,880
Speaker 2: He kills at the clubs in Damascus.

3005
02:36:43,680 --> 02:36:44,720
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

3006
02:36:44,879 --> 02:36:47,200
Speaker 2: And yeah, he is actually like really popular with a

3007
02:36:47,480 --> 02:36:49,440
Speaker 2: not all because there are other We have quotes from

3008
02:36:49,440 --> 02:36:53,480
Speaker 2: other people who are like particularly other Egyptian military leaders

3009
02:36:53,560 --> 02:36:56,160
Speaker 2: under Saddat, who are like, well, Saddat's fallen for it.

3010
02:36:56,160 --> 02:36:58,440
Speaker 2: He's obviously just saying whatever he thinks will make us

3011
02:36:58,480 --> 02:37:00,880
Speaker 2: like him, like he doesn't. Clearly he can't believe this shit.

3012
02:37:00,959 --> 02:37:03,400
Speaker 2: He's just trying to, Like, there are people who see

3013
02:37:03,440 --> 02:37:05,600
Speaker 2: through it, but he he's able to trick the folks

3014
02:37:05,600 --> 02:37:09,120
Speaker 2: who matter, which is in this case are Sadat and Hafez. Right,

3015
02:37:10,080 --> 02:37:13,080
Speaker 2: So all that aside, this period is again broadly speaking,

3016
02:37:13,640 --> 02:37:16,800
Speaker 2: the one where Kissinger does the most actual good. But

3017
02:37:16,879 --> 02:37:19,039
Speaker 2: it's worth noting that even when he's on the right

3018
02:37:19,120 --> 02:37:21,360
Speaker 2: side of things, I think negotiating an end to a

3019
02:37:21,440 --> 02:37:24,120
Speaker 2: war is generally the right thing to do when they're

3020
02:37:24,200 --> 02:37:27,080
Speaker 2: the war. But even when he's on the right side

3021
02:37:27,120 --> 02:37:29,600
Speaker 2: of things, his ego plays a massive and often toxic

3022
02:37:29,680 --> 02:37:32,120
Speaker 2: role in how everything shakes out. See, while all this

3023
02:37:32,240 --> 02:37:35,720
Speaker 2: is going on, Nixon is barreling towards impeachment, and a

3024
02:37:35,760 --> 02:37:38,120
Speaker 2: big part of why he's constantly over there, Like while

3025
02:37:38,160 --> 02:37:41,119
Speaker 2: all of the big milestones in the Watergate case hit,

3026
02:37:41,480 --> 02:37:44,360
Speaker 2: like when Nixon is like ordering the cover up and

3027
02:37:44,400 --> 02:37:46,160
Speaker 2: shit and doing the things that will get him impeached,

3028
02:37:46,520 --> 02:37:50,080
Speaker 2: Kissinger is always away, Like he's like very studiously as

3029
02:37:50,120 --> 02:37:51,800
Speaker 2: soon as the story breaks, like, I need to be

3030
02:37:51,959 --> 02:37:54,040
Speaker 2: overseas as much as fucking possible.

3031
02:37:54,120 --> 02:37:57,960
Speaker 1: So is it possible. He's competently trying to negotiate Middle

3032
02:37:58,000 --> 02:38:00,800
Speaker 1: East piece because he's trying to save his own ass

3033
02:38:00,840 --> 02:38:01,680
Speaker 1: and doesn't want.

3034
02:38:01,640 --> 02:38:04,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is literally what's going on. Because he's he's

3035
02:38:04,840 --> 02:38:07,560
Speaker 2: not a dumb man. He sees that Nixon is fucked, so.

3036
02:38:07,560 --> 02:38:10,960
Speaker 1: He doesn't He's like, well, I can just be doing nothing, yes,

3037
02:38:11,080 --> 02:38:13,080
Speaker 1: And why don't I actually try to make this work?

3038
02:38:13,120 --> 02:38:15,120
Speaker 1: I guess I'm gonna trouble domestically.

3039
02:38:15,520 --> 02:38:17,400
Speaker 2: I mean that's it, Like he wants to because part

3040
02:38:17,400 --> 02:38:19,000
Speaker 2: of it is he doesn't want to be near Nixon

3041
02:38:19,000 --> 02:38:21,160
Speaker 2: because Nixon's toxic, and part of it is like, well,

3042
02:38:21,200 --> 02:38:24,040
Speaker 2: if the last thing everyone remembers about Henry Weill Nixon

3043
02:38:24,080 --> 02:38:26,000
Speaker 2: is going down is that he ended war in the

3044
02:38:26,000 --> 02:38:28,520
Speaker 2: Middle East, I'm going to keep being Secretary of State.

3045
02:38:28,720 --> 02:38:30,720
Speaker 1: You know. There's a friend of mine who had this

3046
02:38:30,800 --> 02:38:33,000
Speaker 1: theory when he was like he said when he or

3047
02:38:33,000 --> 02:38:35,080
Speaker 1: it might even be a bit I don't remember. Like

3048
02:38:35,400 --> 02:38:38,160
Speaker 1: when he's in like a ride share, he won't talk,

3049
02:38:38,440 --> 02:38:41,680
Speaker 1: and then the last two minutes he'll just take great interest.

3050
02:38:41,800 --> 02:38:44,240
Speaker 1: So he leaves on a real high note, and so

3051
02:38:44,360 --> 02:38:46,800
Speaker 1: it's like he's kind of like distant and not really

3052
02:38:46,840 --> 02:38:48,640
Speaker 1: doing much. And then the last two minutes it'll be like,

3053
02:38:48,760 --> 02:38:51,000
Speaker 1: oh that sounds great, well, good luck with your family.

3054
02:38:51,280 --> 02:38:53,400
Speaker 1: And then so that's kind of like he's just trying

3055
02:38:53,440 --> 02:38:55,959
Speaker 1: to leave, like, yeah, leave on a high note. So

3056
02:38:56,000 --> 02:38:57,560
Speaker 1: the last thing he's going to try to do is

3057
02:38:57,600 --> 02:38:59,640
Speaker 1: actually decent. After a bunch of bullshit.

3058
02:38:59,760 --> 02:39:02,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I when I enter a party, I set

3059
02:39:02,120 --> 02:39:04,440
Speaker 2: off an ied at the start of it, so everyone's

3060
02:39:04,480 --> 02:39:06,520
Speaker 2: really like shaken up, but then at the end I

3061
02:39:06,560 --> 02:39:08,360
Speaker 2: handle it A six pack of beer, and right, that

3062
02:39:08,480 --> 02:39:11,520
Speaker 2: means everybody is like, you know, that.

3063
02:39:11,480 --> 02:39:13,120
Speaker 1: Was the guy who dropped the idea. Oh, come on,

3064
02:39:13,320 --> 02:39:15,960
Speaker 1: he's the six pack guy. In my opinion, that's who

3065
02:39:15,959 --> 02:39:16,600
Speaker 1: that guy is.

3066
02:39:17,320 --> 02:39:22,200
Speaker 2: That is how Henry kissing your handles everything. So yeah,

3067
02:39:22,240 --> 02:39:25,400
Speaker 2: now again. But here's the thing. The fact that like

3068
02:39:25,440 --> 02:39:28,440
Speaker 2: this is all existential for Henry right, ending the war

3069
02:39:28,720 --> 02:39:33,080
Speaker 2: in between Israel and her neighbors is like he knows

3070
02:39:33,080 --> 02:39:34,680
Speaker 2: he has to do this or he's not going to

3071
02:39:34,760 --> 02:39:37,879
Speaker 2: keep his gig. So not only is he trying to

3072
02:39:37,879 --> 02:39:40,600
Speaker 2: negotiate peace, but he can't let anyone else play a

3073
02:39:40,720 --> 02:39:43,120
Speaker 2: role in bringing peace to the Middle East, right, because

3074
02:39:43,120 --> 02:39:45,320
Speaker 2: this is how this is his job interview. And you

3075
02:39:45,400 --> 02:39:48,160
Speaker 2: know how Henry kissing your treats job. You've seen what

3076
02:39:48,240 --> 02:39:51,800
Speaker 2: he'll do for a job, interview, Right, He won't do

3077
02:39:51,920 --> 02:39:52,480
Speaker 2: to get a job.

3078
02:39:52,680 --> 02:39:53,440
Speaker 1: I'd like to see that.

3079
02:39:55,640 --> 02:39:58,160
Speaker 2: So this becomes a problem when while this is all

3080
02:39:58,200 --> 02:40:00,880
Speaker 2: going on, this Egyptian in his race general, You've got

3081
02:40:00,879 --> 02:40:04,440
Speaker 2: this massive encircled Egyptian army, the Egyptian general in charge

3082
02:40:04,480 --> 02:40:07,280
Speaker 2: of that in the Israeli general like meet each other

3083
02:40:07,360 --> 02:40:09,840
Speaker 2: in the field between their armies and like sit down

3084
02:40:09,920 --> 02:40:12,840
Speaker 2: and start negotiating a ceasefire and figuring out how to

3085
02:40:12,879 --> 02:40:15,360
Speaker 2: pull like they start like talk like people like it's

3086
02:40:15,400 --> 02:40:17,480
Speaker 2: one of these weird moments in military history with these

3087
02:40:17,480 --> 02:40:19,480
Speaker 2: guys are like, I think we can work something out,

3088
02:40:19,520 --> 02:40:20,959
Speaker 2: Like we don't need to be doing this anymore.

3089
02:40:21,040 --> 02:40:28,080
Speaker 1: Running, God, you guys been quiet? Shut up, shoot a bit,

3090
02:40:29,520 --> 02:40:30,600
Speaker 1: kill them quick.

3091
02:40:30,879 --> 02:40:34,480
Speaker 2: So Henry is enraged when he hears this happening, and

3092
02:40:34,560 --> 02:40:35,439
Speaker 2: he's stick.

3093
02:40:38,320 --> 02:40:39,600
Speaker 1: And he starts again.

3094
02:40:39,920 --> 02:40:43,280
Speaker 2: All these people, who, like in any other situation, neither

3095
02:40:43,800 --> 02:40:46,240
Speaker 2: like an Israeli general or an Egyptian general in the

3096
02:40:46,280 --> 02:40:48,800
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, not guys you would expect to be the

3097
02:40:48,879 --> 02:40:53,959
Speaker 2: voices of reason. But because Kissinger's in the story, yeah,

3098
02:40:54,080 --> 02:40:57,000
Speaker 2: oh my god. So he starts maneuvering to make these

3099
02:40:57,000 --> 02:40:59,960
Speaker 2: guys shut the fuck up. He sends a letter to

3100
02:41:00,040 --> 02:41:04,040
Speaker 2: the Israeli ambassador asking what is Jarev Yariv's the Israeli

3101
02:41:04,080 --> 02:41:07,320
Speaker 2: general selling here? Tell him to stop. Suppose Jaiv comes

3102
02:41:07,360 --> 02:41:10,120
Speaker 2: out a great hero on disengagement. What do you discuss

3103
02:41:10,200 --> 02:41:12,840
Speaker 2: on December eighteenth, which is the next round of negotiations.

3104
02:41:13,040 --> 02:41:17,600
Speaker 10: Well, I mean, god, he's such yeah, I mean, it's

3105
02:41:17,640 --> 02:41:21,680
Speaker 10: just what a heinous asshole I mean, I feel like

3106
02:41:21,760 --> 02:41:24,240
Speaker 10: he could still tilt the credit towards him, but he's

3107
02:41:24,280 --> 02:41:25,920
Speaker 10: like I loved my finger, Prince Solio.

3108
02:41:26,040 --> 02:41:28,680
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't want to like get too into like

3109
02:41:28,800 --> 02:41:30,760
Speaker 2: what might have happened, because I'm not an expert on

3110
02:41:30,800 --> 02:41:34,320
Speaker 2: either Egyptian or Israeli military history. But you have to think,

3111
02:41:34,400 --> 02:41:36,480
Speaker 2: maybe it would have been good if like an Israeli

3112
02:41:36,520 --> 02:41:39,120
Speaker 2: general and an Egyptian general had like brought peace to

3113
02:41:39,160 --> 02:41:41,280
Speaker 2: the conflict, and like maybe that had like been part

3114
02:41:41,320 --> 02:41:43,800
Speaker 2: of like the military legacy in the area might have

3115
02:41:43,879 --> 02:41:44,320
Speaker 2: been nice.

3116
02:41:44,360 --> 02:41:47,840
Speaker 1: I don't know, you realize we're staring down the battle

3117
02:41:47,879 --> 02:41:50,640
Speaker 1: of a tragedy right now. I'm might not.

3118
02:41:51,000 --> 02:41:58,320
Speaker 2: Recognized as the one so Kissinger. A biography continues the

3119
02:41:58,360 --> 02:42:01,480
Speaker 2: story quote a Kissinger's test. Both Saddat and my ear

3120
02:42:01,520 --> 02:42:04,120
Speaker 2: reigned in their generals at the kilometer one oh one talks.

3121
02:42:04,160 --> 02:42:07,320
Speaker 2: That's like where this army is encircled the Israeli ambassador.

3122
02:42:07,320 --> 02:42:09,879
Speaker 2: Although a Kissinger partisan felt that it was largely a

3123
02:42:09,879 --> 02:42:12,640
Speaker 2: matter of ego, Kissinger's view was that if any concessions

3124
02:42:12,640 --> 02:42:14,480
Speaker 2: were to be made, they should be made by him.

3125
02:42:14,720 --> 02:42:17,160
Speaker 2: In It's recalled, he was very upset when he found

3126
02:42:17,160 --> 02:42:19,240
Speaker 2: out that things were actually being settled by the generals

3127
02:42:19,240 --> 02:42:21,840
Speaker 2: at kilometer one on one. We had to make them stop.

3128
02:42:22,160 --> 02:42:24,000
Speaker 2: Ego was a weakness of his, but it was also

3129
02:42:24,040 --> 02:42:26,160
Speaker 2: the source of his greatness, which.

3130
02:42:26,080 --> 02:42:30,640
Speaker 1: I might quit with a weakness is understating, yes, I

3131
02:42:30,680 --> 02:42:35,360
Speaker 1: would you call it a strike? Can we can we

3132
02:42:35,480 --> 02:42:37,959
Speaker 1: kill both generals? And if we're they need to find

3133
02:42:38,000 --> 02:42:40,680
Speaker 1: the generals. These guys are getting a long way too well.

3134
02:42:40,680 --> 02:42:42,119
Speaker 1: And I didn't that wasn't there.

3135
02:42:42,440 --> 02:42:45,080
Speaker 2: Listen, Dick, I know the Watergate stuff has you, but

3136
02:42:45,240 --> 02:42:46,920
Speaker 2: can we invade both countries?

3137
02:42:47,200 --> 02:42:50,959
Speaker 1: For sure? Complain camp.

3138
02:42:53,160 --> 02:42:57,720
Speaker 2: So to his sort of credit, though, the piece that

3139
02:42:57,760 --> 02:43:00,880
Speaker 2: Henry helped negotiate to end the am Kipper War would

3140
02:43:00,920 --> 02:43:03,520
Speaker 2: prove to be durable, and it's set up diplomatic relations

3141
02:43:03,560 --> 02:43:06,320
Speaker 2: between Egypt and Israel for the next time. There's this

3142
02:43:06,440 --> 02:43:09,000
Speaker 2: very powerful moment when like gold of my ear because

3143
02:43:09,040 --> 02:43:11,760
Speaker 2: like Sadak still can't talk directly to Israel. There's a

3144
02:43:11,800 --> 02:43:14,800
Speaker 2: whole like diplomatic thing going on, right. But he tells

3145
02:43:14,879 --> 02:43:17,600
Speaker 2: Kissinger to tell her like I'm taking off my military

3146
02:43:17,680 --> 02:43:20,000
Speaker 2: uniform and I'm never going to wear it again, basically

3147
02:43:20,040 --> 02:43:23,680
Speaker 2: like things do, Like this is a really like good move.

3148
02:43:23,760 --> 02:43:25,800
Speaker 2: In a lot of ways. Obviously that you could say

3149
02:43:25,800 --> 02:43:28,560
Speaker 2: this also like paves the way for nobody ever coming

3150
02:43:28,560 --> 02:43:31,000
Speaker 2: to help the Palestinians again, which is worth noting. But

3151
02:43:31,480 --> 02:43:34,880
Speaker 2: it does bring an into this series of like constant wars.

3152
02:43:36,160 --> 02:43:39,720
Speaker 1: So, yeah, what an amazing risk to take though to me, Yeah,

3153
02:43:39,959 --> 02:43:43,200
Speaker 1: you guys stop, We'll do my version. We gotta do

3154
02:43:43,280 --> 02:43:47,080
Speaker 1: it my way. Yeah, the Frank Sinatra of Middle East

3155
02:43:47,120 --> 02:43:48,480
Speaker 1: peace negotiations.

3156
02:43:49,480 --> 02:43:52,200
Speaker 2: That is kind of the reputation he gets because obviously

3157
02:43:52,240 --> 02:43:56,119
Speaker 2: this plays incredibly well for Americans, and so Ni Kissinger

3158
02:43:56,200 --> 02:43:59,240
Speaker 2: is seen as still this like massive hero even Wow,

3159
02:43:59,280 --> 02:44:00,879
Speaker 2: this is a big part of what he's so popular,

3160
02:44:00,879 --> 02:44:02,360
Speaker 2: even as the rest of the ed Men goes down

3161
02:44:02,440 --> 02:44:06,000
Speaker 2: into flames. Now, this inaugurates a period of what comes

3162
02:44:06,040 --> 02:44:08,880
Speaker 2: to be known as Shuttle diplomacy. That's a term you'll

3163
02:44:08,920 --> 02:44:11,959
Speaker 2: hear associated with Kissinger all the time, and it's him

3164
02:44:12,000 --> 02:44:14,000
Speaker 2: flying all these different countries in the Middle East and

3165
02:44:14,080 --> 02:44:16,680
Speaker 2: in Africa, him flying from like capital to capital for

3166
02:44:16,800 --> 02:44:19,959
Speaker 2: weeks on end, doing these negotiations where he's always the

3167
02:44:20,000 --> 02:44:23,800
Speaker 2: man in the center of things. Henry actually kind of

3168
02:44:23,840 --> 02:44:26,640
Speaker 2: grew addicted to throwing himself in the middle of international

3169
02:44:26,680 --> 02:44:30,560
Speaker 2: crises and flying NonStop between capitals to do these negotiations.

3170
02:44:30,920 --> 02:44:33,400
Speaker 2: It was this, and the popularity he earned from being

3171
02:44:33,440 --> 02:44:36,320
Speaker 2: seen as a peacemaker that guaranteed him to keep his

3172
02:44:36,440 --> 02:44:39,840
Speaker 2: job in Ford's cabinet. One of the few upsides to

3173
02:44:39,879 --> 02:44:42,240
Speaker 2: Kissinger's career prior to the seventies is that he hadn't

3174
02:44:42,280 --> 02:44:45,120
Speaker 2: really fucked with Africa to any appreciable degree. Now this

3175
02:44:45,160 --> 02:44:47,480
Speaker 2: is not because Henry Kissinger would have an issue with

3176
02:44:47,520 --> 02:44:49,879
Speaker 2: fucking with Africa, but it is because the US, like,

3177
02:44:50,200 --> 02:44:52,720
Speaker 2: we didn't have a huge footprint in the continent until

3178
02:44:52,760 --> 02:44:53,320
Speaker 2: the sixties.

3179
02:44:53,360 --> 02:44:57,000
Speaker 1: You know, that's just not there's so much, so many

3180
02:44:57,040 --> 02:45:01,080
Speaker 1: countries to ruin. Yeah.

3181
02:45:01,200 --> 02:45:03,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like him learning Spanish. He just never

3182
02:45:03,600 --> 02:45:04,320
Speaker 2: found the time.

3183
02:45:04,440 --> 02:45:07,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I look, anyone, I'm a little older, and I

3184
02:45:07,760 --> 02:45:10,080
Speaker 1: get the times. I can rule it, my god.

3185
02:45:11,080 --> 02:45:16,360
Speaker 2: So yeah, the US footprint in Africa started up when

3186
02:45:16,400 --> 02:45:18,440
Speaker 2: the CI in like the early sixties. I think when

3187
02:45:18,440 --> 02:45:20,520
Speaker 2: the CIA murdered or allowed other people to murder.

3188
02:45:20,560 --> 02:45:21,400
Speaker 1: It's a little unclear.

3189
02:45:21,600 --> 02:45:25,520
Speaker 2: Patries Lamumba, the left wing democratically elected leader of the Congo.

3190
02:45:26,120 --> 02:45:29,040
Speaker 2: The US backed a right wing general well, even calling

3191
02:45:29,080 --> 02:45:31,000
Speaker 2: over like right and left or less useful terms in

3192
02:45:31,000 --> 02:45:33,680
Speaker 2: this but we back a general called Joseph Mbutu who

3193
02:45:33,760 --> 02:45:36,800
Speaker 2: proceeded to spend the next couple decades robbing the country blind.

3194
02:45:37,640 --> 02:45:38,920
Speaker 1: It seems like a pattern.

3195
02:45:39,360 --> 02:45:41,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it happened. It's weird that it keeps happening all

3196
02:45:41,920 --> 02:45:46,400
Speaker 2: the time. While there was other US fuckery in Africa

3197
02:45:46,440 --> 02:45:49,360
Speaker 2: throughout the sixties and early seventies, it stayed a fairly

3198
02:45:49,480 --> 02:45:52,800
Speaker 2: low EBB until April of nineteen seventy five, when Saigon

3199
02:45:52,920 --> 02:45:56,800
Speaker 2: fell to North Vietnam now known as just Vietnam. Nineteen

3200
02:45:56,879 --> 02:45:59,160
Speaker 2: seventy five was known by some in the media as

3201
02:45:59,200 --> 02:46:02,520
Speaker 2: the Year of an intelligence not because any particularly good

3202
02:46:02,520 --> 02:46:05,680
Speaker 2: decisions were being made, but because Congress was investigating the

3203
02:46:05,720 --> 02:46:08,360
Speaker 2: presidency over Watergate, and there was this big flood of

3204
02:46:08,360 --> 02:46:12,039
Speaker 2: public questions about clandestine foreign actions carried out under the

3205
02:46:12,040 --> 02:46:14,240
Speaker 2: ages of Cold War politics. A lot of the stuff

3206
02:46:14,280 --> 02:46:16,200
Speaker 2: we were talking about in episodes like two, three, and

3207
02:46:16,320 --> 02:46:18,880
Speaker 2: four had started to leak by this point, and so

3208
02:46:18,920 --> 02:46:21,840
Speaker 2: people are like, there's this big national discussion about like

3209
02:46:22,200 --> 02:46:24,640
Speaker 2: what the what should we be doing? All the should

3210
02:46:24,640 --> 02:46:27,440
Speaker 2: we have like a CIA like should we maybe? And

3211
02:46:27,480 --> 02:46:32,000
Speaker 2: there are like the CIA gets like there's a reforming

3212
02:46:32,120 --> 02:46:34,880
Speaker 2: of the CIA that occurs in this area. You can, Yeah,

3213
02:46:34,920 --> 02:46:39,160
Speaker 2: you can question the degree to which it mattered. Yeah,

3214
02:46:39,360 --> 02:46:41,320
Speaker 2: it may have made them less good at doing the

3215
02:46:41,360 --> 02:46:44,080
Speaker 2: bad things that they did, but not for lack of

3216
02:46:44,160 --> 02:46:48,040
Speaker 2: Try hard to imagine it's the reform in the CIA.

3217
02:46:48,200 --> 02:46:51,360
Speaker 2: Is the difference between overthrowing Salvador I NDE and those

3218
02:46:51,480 --> 02:46:55,080
Speaker 2: like us guys pissing themselves in Venezuela after getting like

3219
02:46:55,280 --> 02:47:04,200
Speaker 2: arrested by fishermen. For Henry Kissinger, though, the Year of

3220
02:47:04,240 --> 02:47:07,240
Speaker 2: Intelligence was a year where he spent trying to reorient

3221
02:47:07,280 --> 02:47:10,359
Speaker 2: in the United States towards a new anti communist conflict.

3222
02:47:10,640 --> 02:47:13,360
Speaker 2: His target this time was the nation of Angola.

3223
02:47:14,080 --> 02:47:14,320
Speaker 1: Now.

3224
02:47:14,360 --> 02:47:17,200
Speaker 2: Angola is a mid sized African nation located on the

3225
02:47:17,240 --> 02:47:20,480
Speaker 2: southwest coast of the continent, directly under the Congo and

3226
02:47:20,520 --> 02:47:23,800
Speaker 2: directly above Namibia. It's close enough to South Africa to

3227
02:47:23,840 --> 02:47:25,800
Speaker 2: get fucked with, but not so close that they can

3228
02:47:25,840 --> 02:47:28,640
Speaker 2: just send troops right over the border. You know, which

3229
02:47:28,720 --> 02:47:31,560
Speaker 2: is a better place to be than directly bordering South

3230
02:47:31,600 --> 02:47:34,760
Speaker 2: Africa in this period. In nineteen sixty one, the people

3231
02:47:34,840 --> 02:47:37,320
Speaker 2: there decided to have themselves a good old fashioned war

3232
02:47:37,360 --> 02:47:40,879
Speaker 2: of independence, which lasted thirteen years, killed tens of thousands

3233
02:47:40,879 --> 02:47:43,280
Speaker 2: of people and only ended when a coup overthrew the

3234
02:47:43,320 --> 02:47:46,720
Speaker 2: dictator of Portugal. Now this coup was, by the way,

3235
02:47:47,120 --> 02:47:49,920
Speaker 2: very weird. Most sources will describe it as a left

3236
02:47:49,920 --> 02:47:52,440
Speaker 2: wing coup against the dictator. The reality is a lot

3237
02:47:52,480 --> 02:47:54,440
Speaker 2: more muddled. The guy who winds up in charge of

3238
02:47:54,440 --> 02:47:58,960
Speaker 2: Portugal on paper is a monocle wearing general who's like real,

3239
02:47:59,160 --> 02:48:05,280
Speaker 2: I love him, yeah yeah, and he's not really leftist,

3240
02:48:05,440 --> 02:48:07,920
Speaker 2: but the powers behind him are some very left wing

3241
02:48:08,040 --> 02:48:11,879
Speaker 2: army officers. They form a new democratic government which includes

3242
02:48:11,959 --> 02:48:16,280
Speaker 2: several elected communist leaders. So Portugal has like elected communist deputies.

3243
02:48:16,280 --> 02:48:18,840
Speaker 1: Now okay. Henry Kissinger flips.

3244
02:48:18,480 --> 02:48:20,720
Speaker 2: The fuck out at this. He is certain the country

3245
02:48:20,760 --> 02:48:24,400
Speaker 2: will fall to Soviet influence. Interestingly, like this daytant He's

3246
02:48:24,400 --> 02:48:25,840
Speaker 2: worked at with the Soviet. It's a big part of

3247
02:48:25,840 --> 02:48:27,760
Speaker 2: it is this idea that like, well, the Soviets have

3248
02:48:27,800 --> 02:48:30,440
Speaker 2: their sphere of influence in the East, and we have,

3249
02:48:30,640 --> 02:48:34,119
Speaker 2: like the West has its sphere of influence in Western Europe,

3250
02:48:34,160 --> 02:48:37,040
Speaker 2: and the Soviets kind of hold to that here because

3251
02:48:37,080 --> 02:48:40,000
Speaker 2: they don't get involved in Portugal. They don't like try

3252
02:48:40,040 --> 02:48:43,280
Speaker 2: to make push things further in their direction. Henry is

3253
02:48:43,560 --> 02:48:46,800
Speaker 2: like convinced they're going to and is absolutely wrong.

3254
02:48:46,640 --> 02:48:48,080
Speaker 1: Because paranoia from Nixon.

3255
02:48:48,120 --> 02:48:52,440
Speaker 2: He was like, well, yeah, yeah, Portugal eventually elects other people,

3256
02:48:52,520 --> 02:48:55,720
Speaker 2: like again the government stays fairly left wing by his standards,

3257
02:48:55,720 --> 02:48:58,040
Speaker 2: but like it does not, as you might notice, it

3258
02:48:58,080 --> 02:48:59,560
Speaker 2: does not join the Iron Curtain.

3259
02:49:00,120 --> 02:49:02,760
Speaker 1: Yeah right, it's yeah.

3260
02:49:02,879 --> 02:49:04,840
Speaker 2: Kissinger is just like, there's we have some quotes from

3261
02:49:04,879 --> 02:49:08,160
Speaker 2: He's absolutely certain that like they're about to go full Stalinist,

3262
02:49:08,480 --> 02:49:11,680
Speaker 2: because again he's wrong about most things. Actually, he does

3263
02:49:11,720 --> 02:49:13,720
Speaker 2: not have a good understanding of like what's going to

3264
02:49:13,760 --> 02:49:14,560
Speaker 2: happen anywhere.

3265
02:49:14,680 --> 02:49:17,040
Speaker 1: No, it's just almost at this point he's hung around

3266
02:49:17,120 --> 02:49:19,440
Speaker 1: so long that you're kind of just like, I guess

3267
02:49:19,480 --> 02:49:21,800
Speaker 1: he must. I mean you want to know about He's

3268
02:49:21,840 --> 02:49:24,519
Speaker 1: probably like You're like, he must know something.

3269
02:49:24,640 --> 02:49:26,879
Speaker 2: You I think it's worth looking at, like what happens,

3270
02:49:26,879 --> 02:49:29,640
Speaker 2: like Henry's expectations for what's going to happen in Portugal

3271
02:49:29,720 --> 02:49:31,840
Speaker 2: versus what happens. And then think back to Chile, where

3272
02:49:31,879 --> 02:49:34,039
Speaker 2: like Henry's like Aundo is going to lead to they're

3273
02:49:34,040 --> 02:49:35,959
Speaker 2: going to go full communist and it's going to be

3274
02:49:36,040 --> 02:49:39,440
Speaker 2: you know, no, maybe if had stayed in power there

3275
02:49:39,520 --> 02:49:41,360
Speaker 2: just wouldn't have been a dictator and things would have

3276
02:49:41,360 --> 02:49:43,360
Speaker 2: been fine, and and they would have had a lot

3277
02:49:43,440 --> 02:49:44,360
Speaker 2: less problems than.

3278
02:49:44,240 --> 02:49:46,960
Speaker 1: They But see the communist version on how many people

3279
02:49:47,000 --> 02:49:51,040
Speaker 1: die in the communist version, Yeah, probably less. The puppets

3280
02:49:51,080 --> 02:49:53,320
Speaker 1: that we put in power are not like these amazing

3281
02:49:53,400 --> 02:49:56,360
Speaker 1: like peacekeepers. It's just it's just like we everyth We're

3282
02:49:56,400 --> 02:49:58,039
Speaker 1: like the Midas of genocides.

3283
02:49:58,520 --> 02:50:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the biggest international result of the

3284
02:50:04,200 --> 02:50:06,960
Speaker 2: coup is that the new Portuguese government had no stomach

3285
02:50:07,000 --> 02:50:10,200
Speaker 2: for colonies. Right, they negotiate a treaty with the three

3286
02:50:10,280 --> 02:50:13,640
Speaker 2: largest militant groups in Angola in seventy five. These were

3287
02:50:13,680 --> 02:50:18,720
Speaker 2: the FNLA, the MPLA and UNITA. The non acronym names

3288
02:50:18,760 --> 02:50:20,760
Speaker 2: of all these groups are in French. I am I'm naughty.

3289
02:50:20,760 --> 02:50:22,320
Speaker 2: I'm not even going to try it, day, Dave, you

3290
02:50:22,320 --> 02:50:29,440
Speaker 2: can absolutely not. What you need to know is that

3291
02:50:29,520 --> 02:50:33,520
Speaker 2: the MPLA were Marxists, right, kind of Marxists. They were

3292
02:50:33,560 --> 02:50:36,440
Speaker 2: formed at least the organization had been formed by members

3293
02:50:36,480 --> 02:50:40,200
Speaker 2: of Angola's intelligencia who were Marxists, and Marxism had like

3294
02:50:40,200 --> 02:50:45,920
Speaker 2: a big influence on the MPLA. Unfortunately, Like yeah, meanwhile,

3295
02:50:45,959 --> 02:50:49,039
Speaker 2: like kind of. So that's one faction. The FNLA and

3296
02:50:49,160 --> 02:50:52,640
Speaker 2: UNITA are generally described as being right wing groups, but

3297
02:50:52,760 --> 02:50:55,680
Speaker 2: this is one of those things where like grafting Western

3298
02:50:55,760 --> 02:50:59,000
Speaker 2: political terms onto the civil war in Angola does not

3299
02:50:59,200 --> 02:51:02,880
Speaker 2: work great. All of these groups, even the ostensibly Marxist MPLA,

3300
02:51:03,160 --> 02:51:05,640
Speaker 2: are very tribal in origin, and by that I mean

3301
02:51:05,680 --> 02:51:08,520
Speaker 2: like they are based on specific tribal grievances and tribal

3302
02:51:08,640 --> 02:51:11,360
Speaker 2: like arguments right that are going on in the region,

3303
02:51:11,920 --> 02:51:14,600
Speaker 2: as opposed to like being clearly like, well we're pro communist,

3304
02:51:14,680 --> 02:51:18,000
Speaker 2: we're anti communists. Like that's really less of what's going on.

3305
02:51:18,120 --> 02:51:19,359
Speaker 2: We're getting shirts made.

3306
02:51:19,600 --> 02:51:20,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

3307
02:51:21,480 --> 02:51:24,600
Speaker 2: For an example of how useless a strict ideological it

3308
02:51:24,720 --> 02:51:28,160
Speaker 2: lens is here, UNITA was initially very left wing in

3309
02:51:28,200 --> 02:51:31,400
Speaker 2: its messaging, attacking the United States as quote the notorious

3310
02:51:31,440 --> 02:51:36,040
Speaker 2: agents of imperialism. UNITAS fighters were literally trained by North

3311
02:51:36,120 --> 02:51:39,000
Speaker 2: Korean soldiers, but by the end of the civil war

3312
02:51:39,040 --> 02:51:41,600
Speaker 2: in Angola they had been receiving arms from the Reagan

3313
02:51:41,640 --> 02:51:46,360
Speaker 2: administration for years. Broker via their paid representative, Paul manifests,

3314
02:51:46,440 --> 02:51:49,680
Speaker 2: Oh my god, what that's the kind of where this

3315
02:51:49,840 --> 02:51:51,640
Speaker 2: is where like United starts off being like we're going

3316
02:51:51,680 --> 02:51:53,920
Speaker 2: to end American imperialism. And by the end they're like,

3317
02:51:53,959 --> 02:51:55,480
Speaker 2: Paul Maniford, get us weapons.

3318
02:51:55,760 --> 02:51:59,200
Speaker 1: If you get next to this Manifold character, he is

3319
02:51:59,200 --> 02:52:00,240
Speaker 1: a good.

3320
02:52:00,720 --> 02:52:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, just like to show you how weird this is. Technically,

3321
02:52:04,080 --> 02:52:07,199
Speaker 2: in the Angolan Civil War, Paul Manafort and North Korea

3322
02:52:07,240 --> 02:52:08,240
Speaker 2: are on the same side.

3323
02:52:09,800 --> 02:52:12,640
Speaker 1: I feel like fifty years old.

3324
02:52:13,040 --> 02:52:17,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and by the end, it is

3325
02:52:17,760 --> 02:52:19,240
Speaker 2: fair to say that, like by the end of the

3326
02:52:19,240 --> 02:52:23,160
Speaker 2: civil war, UNITA's like leader Jonas Savimbi is calling himself

3327
02:52:23,200 --> 02:52:26,520
Speaker 2: an anti communist, that's his messaging, but he's less about

3328
02:52:26,520 --> 02:52:29,920
Speaker 2: anti communism. Then again, there's specific local grievances he has

3329
02:52:29,959 --> 02:52:33,000
Speaker 2: with the NPLA, and like that's more why they're fighting

3330
02:52:33,080 --> 02:52:35,920
Speaker 2: than that he like believes strongly in anti communism.

3331
02:52:36,000 --> 02:52:38,280
Speaker 1: Is he just knows that's how you get weapons, right, Okay,

3332
02:52:38,320 --> 02:52:41,000
Speaker 1: that's right. He's yeah, speaking the language, right, Yeah.

3333
02:52:41,000 --> 02:52:43,240
Speaker 2: And when North Korea is training his guys, he's not

3334
02:52:44,120 --> 02:52:46,720
Speaker 2: into Jucea, you know, he's like wants the dudes to

3335
02:52:46,720 --> 02:52:47,440
Speaker 2: train his guys.

3336
02:52:47,520 --> 02:52:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right now.

3337
02:52:48,680 --> 02:52:51,200
Speaker 2: The FNLA is led by a guy named and that's

3338
02:52:51,200 --> 02:52:54,440
Speaker 2: the other usually called a right wing faction, is led

3339
02:52:54,440 --> 02:52:56,800
Speaker 2: by a guy named Holden Roberto who used to work

3340
02:52:56,840 --> 02:52:59,240
Speaker 2: with Savimbi before Savimbi formed United.

3341
02:52:59,280 --> 02:53:01,680
Speaker 1: I know this is a very complicated conflict. I'm sorry.

3342
02:53:03,000 --> 02:53:05,840
Speaker 2: They're generally described as like right wing, and they did

3343
02:53:05,879 --> 02:53:09,200
Speaker 2: receive aid from the CIA, so that would like okay, yeah,

3344
02:53:09,280 --> 02:53:11,760
Speaker 2: definitely right wing getting aid from the CIA. They also

3345
02:53:11,840 --> 02:53:15,879
Speaker 2: got military aid from China, Romania, India, Algeria, Zaiyir, the

3346
02:53:15,959 --> 02:53:18,640
Speaker 2: a fl CIO and the Ford Foundation, or at least

3347
02:53:18,680 --> 02:53:21,840
Speaker 2: aid of some sort. So again, like the sides here

3348
02:53:21,920 --> 02:53:23,440
Speaker 2: are just fucking baffling.

3349
02:53:23,520 --> 02:53:27,120
Speaker 1: They're like the tender swindler. They're working every side.

3350
02:53:27,480 --> 02:53:31,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, China, the CIA and the a fl CIO shaking

3351
02:53:31,440 --> 02:53:33,360
Speaker 2: hands over backing the f NLA.

3352
02:53:34,080 --> 02:53:38,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like big brother. Wait you guys here two.

3353
02:53:40,760 --> 02:53:44,840
Speaker 2: Well, the Ford Foundation, Well, well.

3354
02:53:52,560 --> 02:53:53,360
Speaker 1: The m p l A.

3355
02:53:53,440 --> 02:53:55,840
Speaker 2: Which these again are the kind of Marxist guys. And

3356
02:53:55,879 --> 02:53:58,520
Speaker 2: if you're of the three factions, they are the ones

3357
02:53:58,560 --> 02:54:01,800
Speaker 2: who most do believe like a political thing that like

3358
02:54:01,840 --> 02:54:05,320
Speaker 2: we would recognize in terms of like left right sides.

3359
02:54:05,840 --> 02:54:08,440
Speaker 2: They are partly armed by the Soviet Union, which should

3360
02:54:08,440 --> 02:54:11,480
Speaker 2: not be surprising, but most of their military aid comes

3361
02:54:11,520 --> 02:54:13,600
Speaker 2: from Cuba. And we're not really going to get into it,

3362
02:54:13,640 --> 02:54:16,920
Speaker 2: but it's worth noting, like how substantial Cuban aid is

3363
02:54:16,959 --> 02:54:20,440
Speaker 2: to the MPLA. Cuba starts sending soldiers to Angola in

3364
02:54:20,480 --> 02:54:22,920
Speaker 2: November of seventy five, and by nineteen eighty eight they

3365
02:54:22,920 --> 02:54:25,800
Speaker 2: had more than fifty five thousand soldiers in the country. Wow,

3366
02:54:25,800 --> 02:54:27,760
Speaker 2: And like that's a trick. I don't know if you

3367
02:54:27,800 --> 02:54:29,680
Speaker 2: guys know this, but Cuba in the West coast of

3368
02:54:29,720 --> 02:54:31,440
Speaker 2: Africa not super close.

3369
02:54:31,680 --> 02:54:33,959
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's a bit of a jaunt.

3370
02:54:34,160 --> 02:54:37,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's also a long involvement. You know, they're

3371
02:54:37,480 --> 02:54:40,360
Speaker 2: in there more than a decade. There's a lot of

3372
02:54:40,360 --> 02:54:43,120
Speaker 2: commitment here, so as is generally.

3373
02:54:42,640 --> 02:54:44,080
Speaker 1: Actually Cuba now.

3374
02:54:43,840 --> 02:54:48,640
Speaker 2: To be a as is generally the case. All of

3375
02:54:48,680 --> 02:54:51,560
Speaker 2: the communists were not an agreement about Angola. The People's

3376
02:54:51,560 --> 02:54:54,080
Speaker 2: Republic of China did not particularly care about like a

3377
02:54:54,160 --> 02:54:57,119
Speaker 2: left wing struggle in Angola. They wanted to keep Soviet

3378
02:54:57,160 --> 02:54:59,640
Speaker 2: power at bay on a continent where they were starting

3379
02:54:59,680 --> 02:55:02,240
Speaker 2: to do so business themselves. So China and the US

3380
02:55:02,320 --> 02:55:05,320
Speaker 2: work together to support the FNLA and UNITA. This is

3381
02:55:05,360 --> 02:55:08,080
Speaker 2: exactly the sort of thing Kissinger had been going for

3382
02:55:08,160 --> 02:55:10,959
Speaker 2: when he pushed to connect the US diplomatically to China.

3383
02:55:11,320 --> 02:55:12,920
Speaker 2: I want to quote now from a write up by

3384
02:55:12,959 --> 02:55:15,840
Speaker 2: Maria Guda of Wilford Laurier University.

3385
02:55:16,040 --> 02:55:16,520
Speaker 1: Quote.

3386
02:55:16,720 --> 02:55:20,199
Speaker 2: This was part of Kissinger's grand strategy of triangular diplomacy.

3387
02:55:20,400 --> 02:55:24,240
Speaker 2: Triangularly diplomacy was essentially the US exploiting the relationship between

3388
02:55:24,280 --> 02:55:26,960
Speaker 2: communist China and the Soviet Union to create a three

3389
02:55:27,000 --> 02:55:29,520
Speaker 2: way to taunt between the countries, with the US at

3390
02:55:29,520 --> 02:55:32,840
Speaker 2: the helm. Kissinger was not pushing for covert operations through

3391
02:55:32,840 --> 02:55:35,680
Speaker 2: the CIA in order to elevate American standing in China,

3392
02:55:35,720 --> 02:55:38,959
Speaker 2: because Nixon and Kissinger were orchestrating something larger. This was

3393
02:55:38,959 --> 02:55:42,320
Speaker 2: to use China as a counterweight against the Soviets. Kissinger's

3394
02:55:42,360 --> 02:55:46,160
Speaker 2: emphasis on triangular diplomacy caused him to view regional conflict

3395
02:55:46,200 --> 02:55:48,720
Speaker 2: in terms of involvement on the Chinese and the Soviets,

3396
02:55:48,920 --> 02:55:52,120
Speaker 2: not in terms of a local struggle. So he very

3397
02:55:52,200 --> 02:55:55,640
Speaker 2: much sees this as a battle ground between different ideologies.

3398
02:55:56,080 --> 02:55:58,200
Speaker 2: But anyone who knows anything about the Angolis of Orbit

3399
02:55:58,720 --> 02:56:00,640
Speaker 2: knows that, like, no, that's not really what's going on.

3400
02:56:00,720 --> 02:56:03,120
Speaker 2: Like everyone is like everyone is in here, and it

3401
02:56:03,200 --> 02:56:06,800
Speaker 2: is certainly not like about what kind of political shit

3402
02:56:07,080 --> 02:56:12,480
Speaker 2: individual parties believe. Yeah, the site you can't graft these

3403
02:56:12,520 --> 02:56:15,920
Speaker 2: easily onto like a Western axis. But as Isaacson writes,

3404
02:56:15,959 --> 02:56:19,200
Speaker 2: Angola became quote a vivid example of Kissinger's tendency to

3405
02:56:19,240 --> 02:56:22,960
Speaker 2: see complex local struggles in an East West context. In

3406
02:56:23,000 --> 02:56:26,040
Speaker 2: all respect to Kissinger, wrote Jonathan Quitney in his study

3407
02:56:26,080 --> 02:56:28,480
Speaker 2: of the Angolden War, one really has to question the

3408
02:56:28,520 --> 02:56:31,080
Speaker 2: sanity of someone who looks at an ancient tribal dispute

3409
02:56:31,120 --> 02:56:33,920
Speaker 2: over control of distant coffee fields and sees it as

3410
02:56:33,959 --> 02:56:36,520
Speaker 2: a Soviet threat to the security of the United States.

3411
02:56:36,680 --> 02:56:41,920
Speaker 1: I mean, what a guy. Yeah, it's like, I mean,

3412
02:56:43,240 --> 02:56:46,320
Speaker 1: it's also I mean it's it's so again. I mean,

3413
02:56:46,360 --> 02:56:49,000
Speaker 1: the ego on this fucking dude to be able to

3414
02:56:49,200 --> 02:56:53,320
Speaker 1: just go into things, massive conflicts, have no clue and

3415
02:56:53,440 --> 02:56:56,800
Speaker 1: make it that binary and think that he's doing anything.

3416
02:56:57,840 --> 02:56:59,720
Speaker 1: I mean, he's just he's just so embolden.

3417
02:57:00,080 --> 02:57:03,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's in bolden. He just like he's so arrogant

3418
02:57:03,560 --> 02:57:05,879
Speaker 2: that he's like, well, I don't do me.

3419
02:57:05,879 --> 02:57:07,560
Speaker 1: A favorite because some of you wear red shirts and

3420
02:57:07,600 --> 02:57:09,520
Speaker 1: some of you were blue, so they could kind of stuff.

3421
02:57:09,760 --> 02:57:11,360
Speaker 1: Let's do shirt skins. Huh.

3422
02:57:11,440 --> 02:57:13,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't need to, like I Henry Kissinger, don't

3423
02:57:13,840 --> 02:57:17,280
Speaker 2: need to like understand the actual dimensions of why these

3424
02:57:17,320 --> 02:57:19,800
Speaker 2: sides are fighting. Yeah, I can just assume that it

3425
02:57:19,879 --> 02:57:22,560
Speaker 2: grafts onto every other conflict I've ever cared about.

3426
02:57:23,040 --> 02:57:24,160
Speaker 1: Knowledge is weak, yes.

3427
02:57:24,400 --> 02:57:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is like, He's not the only American

3428
02:57:27,360 --> 02:57:29,600
Speaker 2: to be arrogant in this specific way about a conflict

3429
02:57:29,640 --> 02:57:30,120
Speaker 2: in Africa.

3430
02:57:30,200 --> 02:57:32,600
Speaker 1: Right, the last he's the last one. He would be

3431
02:57:32,680 --> 02:57:37,800
Speaker 1: the last that lost. Since then, so CIA.

3432
02:57:37,560 --> 02:57:41,640
Speaker 2: Funding for UNITA in the FNLA was initially quite low,

3433
02:57:41,920 --> 02:57:45,040
Speaker 2: but Kissinger pushed for an escalation, and soon the agency

3434
02:57:45,040 --> 02:57:47,640
Speaker 2: had poured twenty two million dollars in covert support for

3435
02:57:47,640 --> 02:57:50,880
Speaker 2: both of these groups. Kissinger felt they were thinking small though.

3436
02:57:51,160 --> 02:57:53,840
Speaker 2: He believed that after suffering a public defeat in Vietnam,

3437
02:57:54,200 --> 02:58:01,800
Speaker 2: US foreign policy needed a comeback. And yeah, baby, yeah, yeah.

3438
02:58:01,800 --> 02:58:07,560
Speaker 9: A better place than al everybody cares.

3439
02:58:06,160 --> 02:58:09,440
Speaker 1: What, everyone's plugged in. You're gonna love my new stuff.

3440
02:58:10,160 --> 02:58:12,959
Speaker 2: The problem with Vietnam is that it was too distant

3441
02:58:12,959 --> 02:58:14,400
Speaker 2: from American concerns.

3442
02:58:14,520 --> 02:58:18,879
Speaker 1: And that's it. That's the problem now.

3443
02:58:19,280 --> 02:58:21,360
Speaker 2: He yeah, So he believes that like Angla is going

3444
02:58:21,400 --> 02:58:24,280
Speaker 2: to be our fucking comeback tour. It's the equivalent of

3445
02:58:24,360 --> 02:58:28,160
Speaker 2: I don't know one other times Elton John did a

3446
02:58:28,280 --> 02:58:29,760
Speaker 2: did A did a farewell tour.

3447
02:58:29,840 --> 02:58:33,199
Speaker 1: I got yeah something like that. He's not his n Yeah, there's.

3448
02:58:33,000 --> 02:58:36,039
Speaker 2: A lot of similarities between Henry Kissinger and Elton John's

3449
02:58:37,160 --> 02:58:44,240
Speaker 2: musical Yeah Jets. Yeah, actually, tiny dancer that song is

3450
02:58:44,320 --> 02:58:46,920
Speaker 2: about uh is about Henry Kissinger.

3451
02:58:47,280 --> 02:58:51,000
Speaker 1: He is a tiny dancer. He's he is he is

3452
02:58:51,040 --> 02:58:51,560
Speaker 1: a little guy.

3453
02:58:51,840 --> 02:58:54,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, Kissinger wants to prove that the United States

3454
02:58:54,760 --> 02:58:56,720
Speaker 2: is still a global power, and he also wants to

3455
02:58:56,760 --> 02:58:59,600
Speaker 2: prove that Henry Kissinger has like is still a Secretary

3456
02:58:59,640 --> 02:59:00,959
Speaker 2: of State some teeth.

3457
02:59:00,800 --> 02:59:01,000
Speaker 1: You know.

3458
02:59:01,400 --> 02:59:04,320
Speaker 2: He's just like seeded a bunch to the fucking in

3459
02:59:04,400 --> 02:59:05,959
Speaker 2: these negotiations with Vietnam.

3460
02:59:06,040 --> 02:59:09,640
Speaker 1: He's a big peace of mind to hand their Kissinger. Yeah,

3461
02:59:09,680 --> 02:59:12,879
Speaker 1: he is, like everyone is going to see Vietnam as

3462
02:59:12,879 --> 02:59:16,440
Speaker 1: an l for me, so I need a wind baby.

3463
02:59:17,400 --> 02:59:18,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, you.

3464
02:59:18,800 --> 02:59:21,480
Speaker 2: Could kind of see his attitude and Angola as like

3465
02:59:21,680 --> 02:59:24,560
Speaker 2: the powerful sociopath version of buying a sports car to

3466
02:59:24,640 --> 02:59:26,199
Speaker 2: impress like twenty year olds.

3467
02:59:26,080 --> 02:59:28,200
Speaker 1: Like when you're you know, an old man. Yeah right,

3468
02:59:28,240 --> 02:59:30,119
Speaker 1: he's his midlife war crisis.

3469
02:59:30,200 --> 02:59:33,600
Speaker 2: And the people around Kissinger are a lot less bullish

3470
02:59:33,640 --> 02:59:37,240
Speaker 2: about escalating involvement in Angola. Uh and in fact, this

3471
02:59:37,360 --> 02:59:40,600
Speaker 2: includes like the fucking CIA, but they had really big

3472
02:59:40,640 --> 02:59:43,240
Speaker 2: shoes to fill, to be fair, Yeah, yeah, they're just like,

3473
02:59:43,320 --> 02:59:45,039
Speaker 2: we don't want any part of this right now.

3474
02:59:45,280 --> 02:59:46,720
Speaker 1: Wow, you guys are really negative.

3475
02:59:47,280 --> 02:59:49,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, you guys, it's Angola.

3476
02:59:50,040 --> 02:59:52,800
Speaker 1: It's Angola. Where's the wind?

3477
02:59:54,320 --> 02:59:58,760
Speaker 2: Gotta be a fucking hole in one baby. In June

3478
02:59:58,760 --> 03:00:01,560
Speaker 2: of seventy five, Kissinger holds a meeting with President Ford,

3479
03:00:01,600 --> 03:00:04,039
Speaker 2: the Defense Secretary, the Joint chiefs of Staff, and the

3480
03:00:04,080 --> 03:00:07,039
Speaker 2: head of the CIA. They discussed the invasion of Angola,

3481
03:00:07,080 --> 03:00:09,720
Speaker 2: and while most of that meeting is still classified, we

3482
03:00:09,800 --> 03:00:13,400
Speaker 2: know Kissinger urged what he called a diplomatic offensive quote,

3483
03:00:13,480 --> 03:00:15,840
Speaker 2: if we appealed to the Soviets to not be active,

3484
03:00:15,959 --> 03:00:18,520
Speaker 2: it will be a sign of weakness. He played on

3485
03:00:18,640 --> 03:00:22,040
Speaker 2: stereotypes of Africa as mysterious and wild, claiming it is

3486
03:00:22,080 --> 03:00:24,720
Speaker 2: an area where no one can be sure of its judgments.

3487
03:00:25,320 --> 03:00:29,360
Speaker 2: Next Guda rites quote revealing his talent for manipulation. Kissinger

3488
03:00:29,440 --> 03:00:32,360
Speaker 2: used daunting and dramatic language to illustrate the situation in

3489
03:00:32,400 --> 03:00:34,800
Speaker 2: Angola as he saw it, by giving the impression that

3490
03:00:34,800 --> 03:00:36,640
Speaker 2: there was no way to tell how the Angolan Civil

3491
03:00:36,680 --> 03:00:39,320
Speaker 2: War would play out. Kissinger pushed forward the idea that

3492
03:00:39,360 --> 03:00:41,840
Speaker 2: the US had better get involved in Angola through tangible

3493
03:00:41,959 --> 03:00:44,960
Speaker 2: or covert means before it was too late. The US,

3494
03:00:45,000 --> 03:00:47,920
Speaker 2: through the CIA, needed to support the FNLA in United

3495
03:00:47,959 --> 03:00:51,240
Speaker 2: to to prevent the dominance of the Soviet backed MPLA.

3496
03:00:51,680 --> 03:00:54,320
Speaker 2: This view wholly disregards the idea that the Angolan Civil

3497
03:00:54,320 --> 03:00:57,359
Speaker 2: War was, indeed that a civil war. Kissinger was positioning

3498
03:00:57,440 --> 03:01:00,160
Speaker 2: Angola in a wider East versus West context.

3499
03:01:00,560 --> 03:01:04,280
Speaker 1: Oh my good, you've got biggie, you've got tupac he does.

3500
03:01:04,920 --> 03:01:08,840
Speaker 1: I mean, only the United States can want to be in, Like,

3501
03:01:08,920 --> 03:01:11,320
Speaker 1: only the United States can be sold on getting involved

3502
03:01:11,320 --> 03:01:13,320
Speaker 1: in a conflict. Or he's like, we have no clue

3503
03:01:13,360 --> 03:01:16,360
Speaker 1: what's going on, so we got to get hats, throw

3504
03:01:16,400 --> 03:01:19,160
Speaker 1: our decks in this one. Come on, guys, let's get moving.

3505
03:01:19,240 --> 03:01:20,200
Speaker 1: It could be crazy.

3506
03:01:20,720 --> 03:01:23,600
Speaker 2: This is one where like the US actually doesn't really

3507
03:01:23,600 --> 03:01:26,360
Speaker 2: want to get involved like this. Kissinger is the one

3508
03:01:26,400 --> 03:01:30,519
Speaker 2: pulling everyone else in here. He's a marketing wizard. Yeah,

3509
03:01:30,720 --> 03:01:33,840
Speaker 2: And based on his urgings, the CIA comes up with

3510
03:01:33,879 --> 03:01:38,320
Speaker 2: a plan called IA Feature. It was a covert parrot

3511
03:01:38,400 --> 03:01:42,800
Speaker 2: paramilitary operation in which US military advisors and special forces

3512
03:01:42,959 --> 03:01:46,160
Speaker 2: would be sent to Angola in a manner basically identical

3513
03:01:46,160 --> 03:01:48,039
Speaker 2: to how US involvement in Vietnam started.

3514
03:01:48,520 --> 03:01:51,600
Speaker 1: It is literally like, let's do that again, baby, let's

3515
03:01:51,600 --> 03:01:53,760
Speaker 1: see it. It goes pretty good when we do it.

3516
03:01:54,200 --> 03:01:59,320
Speaker 2: This this is how I get to bomb Namibia. That's

3517
03:01:59,320 --> 03:02:04,640
Speaker 2: not my vision. He has dreams of flattening the Congo.

3518
03:02:06,160 --> 03:02:08,320
Speaker 1: I woke up, I thought that I had done that.

3519
03:02:08,680 --> 03:02:11,240
Speaker 2: Now, despite the fact that the CIA did come up

3520
03:02:11,240 --> 03:02:14,200
Speaker 2: with this plane at his behest, there's intense resistance within

3521
03:02:14,240 --> 03:02:17,199
Speaker 2: the agency, a lot of whom think Kissinger has lost

3522
03:02:17,200 --> 03:02:22,039
Speaker 2: his fucking mind. And thus CIA director William Colby joins

3523
03:02:22,040 --> 03:02:25,119
Speaker 2: our pantheon of bad guys who seem reasonable because Henry

3524
03:02:25,200 --> 03:02:29,920
Speaker 2: Kissinger is involved, right, Kobe is like pretty rattled by

3525
03:02:29,920 --> 03:02:32,680
Speaker 2: how Vietnam ended, and also by the fact that there's

3526
03:02:32,720 --> 03:02:35,520
Speaker 2: all these congressional inquiries into like the CIA doing a

3527
03:02:35,520 --> 03:02:38,320
Speaker 2: bunch of other terrible shit. Right, They're actively being investigated

3528
03:02:38,400 --> 03:02:40,320
Speaker 2: right now. So this isn't Kobe being a good guy.

3529
03:02:40,360 --> 03:02:42,320
Speaker 2: This is Kobe being like, oh, I don't want to

3530
03:02:42,400 --> 03:02:44,320
Speaker 2: drive when I've got you know, shit in the car,

3531
03:02:44,480 --> 03:02:47,000
Speaker 2: basic right, like I'm holding right now, you know what.

3532
03:02:47,040 --> 03:02:50,920
Speaker 9: Honestly, any any other time, I'm just fucking Angol like crazy,

3533
03:02:51,000 --> 03:02:52,520
Speaker 9: Like I'm just fucking going nuts.

3534
03:02:52,560 --> 03:02:54,360
Speaker 1: But it's just not the right time. We got a

3535
03:02:54,440 --> 03:02:58,080
Speaker 1: right right now. Yeah, he's the guy who's like, he's

3536
03:02:58,080 --> 03:03:00,920
Speaker 1: like kissing is like on a casino floor, and he's

3537
03:03:00,959 --> 03:03:04,440
Speaker 1: been cheating, and like the securities gathered and they're whispering

3538
03:03:04,480 --> 03:03:07,039
Speaker 1: and pointing at him. He notices, and he's still playing.

3539
03:03:07,520 --> 03:03:10,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, he keeps going, He's gonna let it right on

3540
03:03:10,240 --> 03:03:11,200
Speaker 2: Black one more time.

3541
03:03:11,240 --> 03:03:12,800
Speaker 1: How many times I have to say hit me?

3542
03:03:14,400 --> 03:03:18,480
Speaker 2: So the forty Committee, which again Kissinger heads, approves I

3543
03:03:18,680 --> 03:03:22,280
Speaker 2: a feature, but William Colby is like, okay, but I'm

3544
03:03:22,320 --> 03:03:25,160
Speaker 2: going to insist we actually go to Congress to have

3545
03:03:25,200 --> 03:03:27,480
Speaker 2: the funds appropriated for this secret option.

3546
03:03:27,640 --> 03:03:32,360
Speaker 1: That's branch. Those guys, what are they still you? Oh

3547
03:03:32,360 --> 03:03:34,119
Speaker 1: my god.

3548
03:03:35,640 --> 03:03:39,440
Speaker 2: So, while Kissinger argues for his covert operators, South Africa

3549
03:03:39,520 --> 03:03:42,280
Speaker 2: sends troops in to support the FNLA in United who

3550
03:03:42,280 --> 03:03:46,199
Speaker 2: would again originally been trained by North Korea. So there's

3551
03:03:46,320 --> 03:03:50,560
Speaker 2: FNLA troops received training from both South Africa and North Korea.

3552
03:03:50,720 --> 03:03:53,600
Speaker 1: Jesus, this is just a very weird war.

3553
03:03:54,760 --> 03:03:57,600
Speaker 2: So China has the reaction we're all having, and it's like,

3554
03:03:57,640 --> 03:03:59,120
Speaker 2: you know what, this is too messy for me.

3555
03:03:59,200 --> 03:04:01,760
Speaker 1: I need this right now, Like I got.

3556
03:04:01,600 --> 03:04:04,240
Speaker 2: Other shit going on, and they kind of bounce from

3557
03:04:04,240 --> 03:04:04,960
Speaker 2: the situation.

3558
03:04:05,280 --> 03:04:05,640
Speaker 1: Okay.

3559
03:04:06,920 --> 03:04:09,480
Speaker 2: The Soviets and the Cubans, though, extend more aid to

3560
03:04:09,520 --> 03:04:13,119
Speaker 2: the MPLA, who win the war handily and install themselves

3561
03:04:13,200 --> 03:04:16,240
Speaker 2: in the capital Luanda by the end of nineteen seventy five.

3562
03:04:16,720 --> 03:04:19,360
Speaker 2: So a few weeks after this, the CIA holds an

3563
03:04:19,360 --> 03:04:22,959
Speaker 2: Interagency Working Group meeting with Kissinger to discuss how to

3564
03:04:23,000 --> 03:04:25,840
Speaker 2: ask Congress to send in US advisors and like, at

3565
03:04:25,879 --> 03:04:29,000
Speaker 2: this point, the war is lost, and there's Kissinger's like, no,

3566
03:04:29,040 --> 03:04:31,320
Speaker 2: we got to get some guys in there. Come on, God,

3567
03:04:32,760 --> 03:04:36,240
Speaker 2: no one else wants this, right. Everyone else is like

3568
03:04:36,280 --> 03:04:37,760
Speaker 2: this seems like way more of.

3569
03:04:37,720 --> 03:04:41,640
Speaker 1: A hassle to the party at like two am. Come on,

3570
03:04:41,760 --> 03:04:44,160
Speaker 1: let's keep going, let's do shots. What do you mean

3571
03:04:44,200 --> 03:04:44,920
Speaker 1: the kegs tame.

3572
03:04:45,520 --> 03:04:48,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, the CIA is already puking from how much they've

3573
03:04:48,280 --> 03:04:49,720
Speaker 2: had to drink in Vietnam.

3574
03:04:50,600 --> 03:04:55,520
Speaker 1: Hit. Come on, I brought absinthe let's go.

3575
03:04:56,879 --> 03:05:00,920
Speaker 2: Who else, so Kissinger or so, Yeah, they have this

3576
03:05:01,000 --> 03:05:05,440
Speaker 2: meeting and like so Kissinger has a meeting with one

3577
03:05:05,480 --> 03:05:07,200
Speaker 2: of this like a guy in this with this a

3578
03:05:07,240 --> 03:05:09,360
Speaker 2: bunch of people, and then like they hold a separate

3579
03:05:09,360 --> 03:05:14,000
Speaker 2: meeting afterwards with the CIA about what Kissinger had said.

3580
03:05:14,280 --> 03:05:18,160
Speaker 1: So like, so basically the side meetings Kissinger now.

3581
03:05:18,200 --> 03:05:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So basically they present Kissinger with a report on

3582
03:05:21,080 --> 03:05:23,120
Speaker 2: like what would have to be done to send US

3583
03:05:23,160 --> 03:05:26,920
Speaker 2: advisors into Angola, and Kissinger reads the report and rather

3584
03:05:26,959 --> 03:05:29,200
Speaker 2: than giving a yes or a no, he grunts and

3585
03:05:29,280 --> 03:05:31,959
Speaker 2: walks out of his office. So after this, all these

3586
03:05:31,959 --> 03:05:34,400
Speaker 2: CIA guys have to sit down and decide, like, what

3587
03:05:34,480 --> 03:05:36,240
Speaker 2: does Henry Kissinger grunting mean?

3588
03:05:36,640 --> 03:05:39,080
Speaker 1: But was this a yes or no? This guy is

3589
03:05:39,240 --> 03:05:42,280
Speaker 1: really good at deciphering what Henry grunts mean. Well, gentlemen,

3590
03:05:42,280 --> 03:05:44,240
Speaker 1: it was a pretty long grun, which is never good.

3591
03:05:44,560 --> 03:05:46,640
Speaker 1: He it's a side grunt, which for Henry means he's

3592
03:05:46,640 --> 03:05:47,520
Speaker 1: a little agitated.

3593
03:05:49,320 --> 03:05:51,920
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote about talk writing about this meeting

3594
03:05:52,280 --> 03:05:57,119
Speaker 2: Kissinger a biography by Walter Isaacson. Everyone found this rather disconcerting,

3595
03:05:57,200 --> 03:06:00,880
Speaker 2: especially since Kissinger was heading off for Beijing. Well, someone asked,

3596
03:06:01,000 --> 03:06:04,560
Speaker 2: was it a positive grunt or a negative grunt? Molkahi paused,

3597
03:06:04,720 --> 03:06:07,440
Speaker 2: it was just a grunt, he explained, like umph, I

3598
03:06:07,480 --> 03:06:10,240
Speaker 2: mean it didn't go up or down stockwell, the agent

3599
03:06:10,280 --> 03:06:13,640
Speaker 2: in charge marveled as a group of Somber officials supervising

3600
03:06:13,640 --> 03:06:16,880
Speaker 2: the nation's only extant war sat around a table trying

3601
03:06:16,879 --> 03:06:20,800
Speaker 2: to decipher a Kissinger grunt. Molkahi provided his imitation of

3602
03:06:20,840 --> 03:06:24,360
Speaker 2: the grunt, once again emphasizing its flatness. Someone else at

3603
03:06:24,360 --> 03:06:26,600
Speaker 2: the other end of the table tried it. There were

3604
03:06:26,600 --> 03:06:30,440
Speaker 2: a few experiments, contrasting positive grunts with the voice rising,

3605
03:06:30,640 --> 03:06:33,640
Speaker 2: then a negative one with the voice falling. Different people

3606
03:06:33,680 --> 03:06:37,120
Speaker 2: attempted it well. Asked the CIA officer who was chairing

3607
03:06:37,160 --> 03:06:40,680
Speaker 2: the meeting, do we proceed with the advisors? Mokahi scowled

3608
03:06:40,680 --> 03:06:43,640
Speaker 2: and puffed on his pipe. We'd better not, he finally said,

3609
03:06:43,640 --> 03:06:46,879
Speaker 2: trying to decipher his boss's mind. Kissinger just decided not

3610
03:06:46,959 --> 03:06:49,400
Speaker 2: to send Americans into the Sinai. There were a lot

3611
03:06:49,440 --> 03:06:52,240
Speaker 2: of nods. The request for advisors was shelved. It was

3612
03:06:52,280 --> 03:06:55,320
Speaker 2: an amazing way to run a war, Molkahi said years

3613
03:06:55,400 --> 03:06:56,840
Speaker 2: later as he recalled the incident.

3614
03:06:56,959 --> 03:06:59,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, by the way, this is they accidentally wrote

3615
03:06:59,879 --> 03:07:02,480
Speaker 1: on Home Improvement script at the end of this this

3616
03:07:02,640 --> 03:07:06,360
Speaker 1: is actually where the pilot that show came from Legim

3617
03:07:06,400 --> 03:07:09,760
Speaker 1: to toolman Taylor. It was it was like no, no,

3618
03:07:09,800 --> 03:07:14,680
Speaker 1: it was like okay, I let that that sounds a

3619
03:07:14,680 --> 03:07:15,800
Speaker 1: little more positive.

3620
03:07:17,560 --> 03:07:20,720
Speaker 2: It's just like, what a moment for the United States,

3621
03:07:20,840 --> 03:07:23,520
Speaker 2: all these fucking spooks with blood on their hands being

3622
03:07:23,600 --> 03:07:26,720
Speaker 2: like yeah, well like or like you.

3623
03:07:26,640 --> 03:07:29,120
Speaker 1: Know, I mean, because you do, at least at some

3624
03:07:29,280 --> 03:07:32,520
Speaker 1: point in your existence, for the most part, you do

3625
03:07:32,600 --> 03:07:36,360
Speaker 1: believe that when someone is saying the Central Intelligence Agency

3626
03:07:36,520 --> 03:07:40,360
Speaker 1: that it is really like working on intelligence and and

3627
03:07:40,560 --> 03:07:44,160
Speaker 1: is intelligent and is a body that is actually, you know,

3628
03:07:44,760 --> 03:07:48,039
Speaker 1: processing information that potentially you don't have access to, and

3629
03:07:48,080 --> 03:07:50,920
Speaker 1: instead they're just sitting around a fucking table going like

3630
03:07:51,160 --> 03:07:54,480
Speaker 1: do the grunt again, Jim, Yeah, again.

3631
03:07:55,120 --> 03:07:57,520
Speaker 2: It reveals And this is I think where a lot

3632
03:07:57,520 --> 03:07:59,680
Speaker 2: of folks on the left kind of mix up. The

3633
03:08:00,200 --> 03:08:03,320
Speaker 2: CIA is like hyper competent, and it's where a lot

3634
03:08:03,320 --> 03:08:07,760
Speaker 2: of people everywhere fuck up if viewing Kissinger is hyper competent, Like, no,

3635
03:08:08,040 --> 03:08:10,320
Speaker 2: they have a lot of power and they use it badly.

3636
03:08:10,680 --> 03:08:13,520
Speaker 2: But like at the end of the day, Kissinger doesn't

3637
03:08:13,560 --> 03:08:16,000
Speaker 2: have the balls to like say yes or no on something,

3638
03:08:16,000 --> 03:08:18,160
Speaker 2: and so he grunts and then all of these fucking

3639
03:08:18,280 --> 03:08:22,360
Speaker 2: again bloody handed monsters spend an entire meeting like repeating

3640
03:08:22,360 --> 03:08:24,240
Speaker 2: the grunt and trying to figure out it. It means

3641
03:08:24,320 --> 03:08:27,800
Speaker 2: yes or no, and there's no like it's so unchecked.

3642
03:08:27,920 --> 03:08:31,720
Speaker 1: I mean like you there and it's it still is that,

3643
03:08:32,000 --> 03:08:35,360
Speaker 1: but it's just there's nobody there to be like, hey,

3644
03:08:35,360 --> 03:08:39,320
Speaker 1: this is fucking nuts. Yeah. Instead they're like, do the

3645
03:08:39,320 --> 03:08:42,119
Speaker 1: grunt again, to try the grunt again? Yes or no?

3646
03:08:42,920 --> 03:08:45,240
Speaker 1: Dan have the best grunt, Dann, do it again, because

3647
03:08:45,240 --> 03:08:49,959
Speaker 1: I want to play it slow for everyone to me

3648
03:08:50,080 --> 03:08:53,920
Speaker 1: bro it's while I think it sounds ambivalent. Having known

3649
03:08:53,959 --> 03:08:55,760
Speaker 1: Henry for a little while, he's pissed.

3650
03:08:56,600 --> 03:08:59,480
Speaker 2: So the CIA's request for another twenty eight million in

3651
03:08:59,520 --> 03:09:02,360
Speaker 2: funding and the discussion of sending in advisors was again

3652
03:09:02,480 --> 03:09:06,560
Speaker 2: leaked to Seymour Hirsh. Congress cut off all aid. Obviously,

3653
03:09:06,600 --> 03:09:08,480
Speaker 2: he puts out an article about it. Congress cuts off

3654
03:09:08,480 --> 03:09:11,160
Speaker 2: aid to Angola. As a result of this, Kissinger does

3655
03:09:11,200 --> 03:09:14,000
Speaker 2: not get his way, but the CIA money he'd already

3656
03:09:14,000 --> 03:09:16,680
Speaker 2: funneled into Unit I helped the group stay alive. The

3657
03:09:16,760 --> 03:09:19,720
Speaker 2: Angolan Civil War did not officially end until two thousand

3658
03:09:19,720 --> 03:09:22,360
Speaker 2: and two. Although again this is one of those things,

3659
03:09:22,760 --> 03:09:25,160
Speaker 2: this is a really nasty civil war. It lasts a

3660
03:09:25,280 --> 03:09:28,400
Speaker 2: ridiculous amount of time. Kissinger gets a lot of the blame,

3661
03:09:28,440 --> 03:09:30,840
Speaker 2: but we should also note that like Paul Maniford is

3662
03:09:31,080 --> 03:09:32,600
Speaker 2: much more on those.

3663
03:09:32,480 --> 03:09:33,120
Speaker 1: Like he is the guy.

3664
03:09:33,240 --> 03:09:36,160
Speaker 2: Manifort's the guy who brings Savimbi to DC and gets

3665
03:09:36,200 --> 03:09:38,400
Speaker 2: Reagan to send a fuck load of weapons over to

3666
03:09:38,520 --> 03:09:40,160
Speaker 2: like really escalate things.

3667
03:09:41,240 --> 03:09:42,359
Speaker 1: Thank god for Reagan.

3668
03:09:42,640 --> 03:09:45,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank god for Reagan. But it is amazing that

3669
03:09:45,840 --> 03:09:47,920
Speaker 2: this fucking goes on until two thousand and two.

3670
03:09:48,360 --> 03:09:53,360
Speaker 1: Crazy. Yeah, what a legacy, What a legacy.

3671
03:09:53,720 --> 03:09:57,320
Speaker 2: So I have teased y'all that Kissinger has a Rhodesia connection,

3672
03:09:58,480 --> 03:10:01,400
Speaker 2: and yet again, the funniest thing about this is that

3673
03:10:01,480 --> 03:10:03,400
Speaker 2: it's one of the least fucked up things he's ever

3674
03:10:03,480 --> 03:10:05,879
Speaker 2: involved in. But the story is kind of funny, so

3675
03:10:05,920 --> 03:10:09,119
Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell it anyway. Okay, So in Rhodesia, you've

3676
03:10:09,160 --> 03:10:11,279
Speaker 2: got this country, we're about eight percent of the population

3677
03:10:11,400 --> 03:10:14,760
Speaker 2: at the height of like white population in Rhodesia, about

3678
03:10:14,760 --> 03:10:17,080
Speaker 2: eight percent of them are white, but they hold effectively

3679
03:10:17,080 --> 03:10:20,680
Speaker 2: one hundred percent of the political power. This obviously is

3680
03:10:20,720 --> 03:10:22,840
Speaker 2: not something a lot of the black people living there

3681
03:10:22,920 --> 03:10:26,160
Speaker 2: like sure for reasons I don't think I need to explain.

3682
03:10:26,600 --> 03:10:28,320
Speaker 2: So some of them decide to fight back, and there's

3683
03:10:28,320 --> 03:10:30,680
Speaker 2: a number of rebel groups and soon an ugly insurgent

3684
03:10:30,720 --> 03:10:33,080
Speaker 2: war between the Rhodesian government, which by the way, is

3685
03:10:33,120 --> 03:10:36,000
Speaker 2: an international pariah, right, they're like actually not supposed to

3686
03:10:36,040 --> 03:10:40,360
Speaker 2: exist basically, so no one can legally sell them arms.

3687
03:10:40,360 --> 03:10:42,800
Speaker 2: So everything has to get like smuggled through South Africa,

3688
03:10:43,000 --> 03:10:45,880
Speaker 2: and the soldier of Fortune magazine winds up sending a

3689
03:10:45,920 --> 03:10:46,800
Speaker 2: bunch of fighters over.

3690
03:10:46,840 --> 03:10:47,320
Speaker 1: William F.

3691
03:10:47,360 --> 03:10:49,840
Speaker 2: Buckley Junior or William F. Buckley raises money for them.

3692
03:10:50,080 --> 03:10:51,680
Speaker 1: YadA YadA, YadA. Very nasty war.

3693
03:10:51,720 --> 03:10:54,080
Speaker 2: We've talked about it in other episodes, the go fundme,

3694
03:10:54,800 --> 03:10:56,600
Speaker 2: Yeah it is. It is a go fund me war.

3695
03:10:57,040 --> 03:10:59,520
Speaker 2: So by the time Kissinger is in office, the white

3696
03:10:59,520 --> 03:11:02,560
Speaker 2: minority government of Rhodesia has spent years locked into the

3697
03:11:02,600 --> 03:11:06,800
Speaker 2: losing side of a grinding insurgent campaign. The international community

3698
03:11:06,840 --> 03:11:09,760
Speaker 2: widely condemns Rhodesia as an apartheid state, and there's a

3699
03:11:09,800 --> 03:11:13,000
Speaker 2: bunch of arms embargoes, and in fact, pretty much everyone

3700
03:11:13,080 --> 03:11:16,120
Speaker 2: hates Rhodesia except for South Africa and the US right

3701
03:11:16,160 --> 03:11:20,000
Speaker 2: wing who see the rhodes as anti communist crusaders. Sure,

3702
03:11:20,160 --> 03:11:23,280
Speaker 2: Kissinger was locked into an awkward position here. He wanted

3703
03:11:23,280 --> 03:11:25,640
Speaker 2: to negotiate an end to the fighting and an end

3704
03:11:25,720 --> 03:11:28,720
Speaker 2: to the white supremacist government of Rhodesia, but he also

3705
03:11:28,760 --> 03:11:30,800
Speaker 2: doesn't want to piss off his right wing base too much.

3706
03:11:30,879 --> 03:11:33,320
Speaker 1: You know, this is like a really messy situation.

3707
03:11:33,879 --> 03:11:39,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, so policy towards Rhodesia in the Nixon years. There's

3708
03:11:39,760 --> 03:11:42,720
Speaker 2: a plan Nixon approved through South Africa in nineteen sixty

3709
03:11:42,800 --> 03:11:46,280
Speaker 2: nine that is like US policy in Rhodesia for nearly

3710
03:11:46,320 --> 03:11:49,440
Speaker 2: a decade, and it is literally called I am sorry

3711
03:11:49,440 --> 03:11:52,400
Speaker 2: for saying this, but Nixon calls US plans like the

3712
03:11:52,520 --> 03:11:56,320
Speaker 2: US stance towards Rhodesia, quote the tar Baby option.

3713
03:11:56,520 --> 03:12:01,840
Speaker 1: Oh okay, got dust on the podcast.

3714
03:12:02,200 --> 03:12:09,199
Speaker 9: Oh my god, there's no stream of white supremacy through American.

3715
03:12:09,360 --> 03:12:14,040
Speaker 2: Now, this was the one time it's like I can't

3716
03:12:14,080 --> 03:12:18,760
Speaker 2: believe the guy fucking recorded himself for like, this is.

3717
03:12:18,959 --> 03:12:20,240
Speaker 1: Not just recorded himself.

3718
03:12:20,240 --> 03:12:22,520
Speaker 2: This isn't just like Nixon saying a slur in a

3719
03:12:22,560 --> 03:12:23,680
Speaker 2: conversation with his buddy.

3720
03:12:24,080 --> 03:12:28,640
Speaker 1: This is official US government. Yeah, yeah, we write this

3721
03:12:28,959 --> 03:12:33,560
Speaker 1: out places like Okay, I'll hand it in if you're sure,

3722
03:12:33,640 --> 03:12:35,760
Speaker 1: mister president. It's pretty good to me. And this is

3723
03:12:35,800 --> 03:12:37,160
Speaker 1: this is not just towards Rhodesia.

3724
03:12:37,240 --> 03:12:39,440
Speaker 2: This is towards all of like South Africa, to these

3725
03:12:39,600 --> 03:12:42,760
Speaker 2: like white minority governments in Africa. And the premise is

3726
03:12:42,760 --> 03:12:45,080
Speaker 2: that quote, the whites are here to stay and the

3727
03:12:45,120 --> 03:12:47,840
Speaker 2: only way that constructive change can come is through them.

3728
03:12:48,280 --> 03:12:53,440
Speaker 1: So it's so and it really hasn't changed that much.

3729
03:12:53,480 --> 03:12:56,760
Speaker 1: We just have fancier titles. Yeah, we don't put the

3730
03:12:56,800 --> 03:12:59,640
Speaker 1: slurs right in the title. Yeah. No, we don't regard

3731
03:12:59,680 --> 03:13:01,720
Speaker 1: the press it and we don't put the slurs in

3732
03:13:01,760 --> 03:13:02,240
Speaker 1: the title.

3733
03:13:02,520 --> 03:13:06,280
Speaker 2: So the policy is sold to American liberals and moderates

3734
03:13:06,280 --> 03:13:09,080
Speaker 2: by basically saying the only way to liberate Black Africans

3735
03:13:09,160 --> 03:13:12,320
Speaker 2: is to improve their economic outcomes through trade, and that

3736
03:13:12,400 --> 03:13:14,000
Speaker 2: means dealing with the white governments.

3737
03:13:14,080 --> 03:13:19,959
Speaker 1: Right, just yeah, I mean it tech. We've just changed

3738
03:13:19,959 --> 03:13:20,960
Speaker 1: it to tech essentially.

3739
03:13:21,000 --> 03:13:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we would maintain the document declared public opposition to

3740
03:13:26,320 --> 03:13:30,640
Speaker 2: racial repression, but relax political isolation and economic restrictions on

3741
03:13:30,720 --> 03:13:31,520
Speaker 2: the white states.

3742
03:13:31,959 --> 03:13:37,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's fucking crazy, Like, you know, the problem

3743
03:13:37,280 --> 03:13:40,160
Speaker 1: here is that people don't like the eight percent white

3744
03:13:40,160 --> 03:13:42,080
Speaker 1: people that run the entire fucking place.

3745
03:13:42,360 --> 03:13:44,760
Speaker 2: It's one of those we continue and we'll always have

3746
03:13:44,800 --> 03:13:47,520
Speaker 2: debates over like sanctions and like when they're good.

3747
03:13:47,360 --> 03:13:48,080
Speaker 1: And bad ideas.

3748
03:13:48,120 --> 03:13:49,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the argument here is that, like, we can't

3749
03:13:49,879 --> 03:13:53,800
Speaker 2: sanction South Africa in Rhodesia because it'll hurt black people.

3750
03:13:54,200 --> 03:13:56,520
Speaker 2: And the degree to which that's a lie is that, like, well,

3751
03:13:56,560 --> 03:13:59,200
Speaker 2: you're saying we have to start selling them fucking weapons

3752
03:13:59,200 --> 03:14:01,039
Speaker 2: so that they can oppress black people in order to

3753
03:14:01,080 --> 03:14:02,359
Speaker 2: improve economic.

3754
03:14:01,959 --> 03:14:03,040
Speaker 1: Outcomes for black people.

3755
03:14:03,400 --> 03:14:09,760
Speaker 2: And perhaps that's fucking insane. Yeah, it's a little more

3756
03:14:09,840 --> 03:14:11,920
Speaker 2: nuanced than that, by not by a lot.

3757
03:14:11,920 --> 03:14:13,000
Speaker 1: So much, not much.

3758
03:14:13,080 --> 03:14:16,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, to his credit, when Nixon is out and Ford

3759
03:14:16,360 --> 03:14:20,120
Speaker 2: is in, Kissinger kills the racial slur option and he

3760
03:14:20,240 --> 03:14:23,119
Speaker 2: authors a new plan, one that is a lot better

3761
03:14:23,200 --> 03:14:25,959
Speaker 2: and that is actually focused on spirited opposition to white

3762
03:14:26,000 --> 03:14:29,440
Speaker 2: minority rule in Rhodesia. Kissinger gives a big speech in

3763
03:14:29,520 --> 03:14:33,680
Speaker 2: Lusaka that immediately enrages the right wing of the Republican Party. Basically,

3764
03:14:33,680 --> 03:14:37,000
Speaker 2: he's like, our plant, like under Ford, we want to

3765
03:14:37,040 --> 03:14:39,400
Speaker 2: bring an end to the government in Rhodesia, like his.

3766
03:14:39,360 --> 03:14:42,520
Speaker 1: Government can unbelievable.

3767
03:14:42,720 --> 03:14:47,200
Speaker 2: Yes, Ronald Reagan, Ronald seven percent of the populace. You

3768
03:14:47,280 --> 03:14:49,840
Speaker 2: can't disenfranchise seven percent of Rhodesia.

3769
03:14:49,959 --> 03:14:51,720
Speaker 1: Have you seen the color of their goddamn skin.

3770
03:14:52,800 --> 03:14:56,840
Speaker 2: That is essentially what Ronald Reagan says. He denounces Kissinger's

3771
03:14:56,879 --> 03:14:59,720
Speaker 2: plan is undercutting the possibility of a quote just an

3772
03:14:59,800 --> 03:15:02,560
Speaker 2: order release settlement and argues that it will provoke a

3773
03:15:02,640 --> 03:15:03,959
Speaker 2: massacre of white people.

3774
03:15:04,240 --> 03:15:06,360
Speaker 1: Boy, So, I mean, you want to have a head

3775
03:15:06,360 --> 03:15:08,680
Speaker 1: popping moment. Try to find a good guy in a

3776
03:15:08,760 --> 03:15:13,560
Speaker 1: Reagan Kissinger debate. It is. It is an amazing fight.

3777
03:15:14,120 --> 03:15:18,160
Speaker 2: It's just like, well, yeah, I hate everyone involved in this.

3778
03:15:18,440 --> 03:15:20,840
Speaker 1: We should pay more attention to the white people. I

3779
03:15:20,840 --> 03:15:23,440
Speaker 1: think we need to be careful. I feel like you're

3780
03:15:23,480 --> 03:15:26,160
Speaker 1: both conning me into something. I mean, you guys are

3781
03:15:26,200 --> 03:15:28,360
Speaker 1: a good cop, bad coping, and you're working for the

3782
03:15:28,360 --> 03:15:29,080
Speaker 1: same outcome.

3783
03:15:29,240 --> 03:15:31,560
Speaker 2: Look, Henry, I'm not one hundred percent sure why I

3784
03:15:31,600 --> 03:15:33,440
Speaker 2: think you're wrong in this, but you must be.

3785
03:15:33,680 --> 03:15:33,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3786
03:15:33,920 --> 03:15:35,920
Speaker 2: The other guy's got to be wrong too, though, So

3787
03:15:35,959 --> 03:15:36,920
Speaker 2: I don't really know what.

3788
03:15:36,840 --> 03:15:40,439
Speaker 1: To do here. Don't trust Reagan and hate him. But Kissinger,

3789
03:15:40,480 --> 03:15:44,680
Speaker 1: you're the worst person on the planet. So i'd call

3790
03:15:44,720 --> 03:15:45,640
Speaker 1: a bit of a nickel.

3791
03:15:46,080 --> 03:15:49,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a doozy of an issue.

3792
03:15:49,080 --> 03:15:50,840
Speaker 1: I'm gonna need to go on the other room and

3793
03:15:50,840 --> 03:15:51,640
Speaker 1: do some grunning.

3794
03:15:52,040 --> 03:15:57,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he yeah, what's happening here is that Kissinger

3795
03:15:58,000 --> 03:16:01,040
Speaker 2: is trying to wrench US government policy in Africa away

3796
03:16:01,080 --> 03:16:05,800
Speaker 2: from supporting explicitly racist regimes in Africa and Reagan.

3797
03:16:07,480 --> 03:16:09,879
Speaker 1: He's trying to get like into a country club or something.

3798
03:16:09,920 --> 03:16:12,080
Speaker 1: There's got to be some a well, I.

3799
03:16:12,000 --> 03:16:14,080
Speaker 2: Mean, obviously for the same reason he does anything right.

3800
03:16:14,120 --> 03:16:16,400
Speaker 2: He wants to be seen as being the guy who

3801
03:16:16,440 --> 03:16:19,200
Speaker 2: negotiates right into these big issues, and he's trying to

3802
03:16:19,280 --> 03:16:22,560
Speaker 2: I think he recognizes by this point that like, well,

3803
03:16:23,200 --> 03:16:25,560
Speaker 2: Republicans aren't going to stay in power forever, but I,

3804
03:16:25,720 --> 03:16:28,440
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger want to have a shot at being in

3805
03:16:28,440 --> 03:16:31,400
Speaker 2: power still, and maybe if I, if I get rid

3806
03:16:31,440 --> 03:16:34,520
Speaker 2: of this bad government Rhodesia, people will be like Henri

3807
03:16:34,680 --> 03:16:36,360
Speaker 2: que let's give him a gig. You know.

3808
03:16:37,120 --> 03:16:43,840
Speaker 13: He accidentally stumbles into yes, the proper outcome because personally

3809
03:16:43,840 --> 03:16:46,039
Speaker 13: he wants to end it, and so he sees the

3810
03:16:46,080 --> 03:16:51,360
Speaker 13: way to end it is actually the way that's good.

3811
03:16:52,040 --> 03:16:56,440
Speaker 1: We're lining up Henry's personal interests with a prudent solution,

3812
03:16:56,920 --> 03:16:59,360
Speaker 1: and happened that eclipse is very rare.

3813
03:16:59,520 --> 03:17:02,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's he's like a guy who like stops a

3814
03:17:02,840 --> 03:17:07,039
Speaker 2: home invader from murdering a family, but it's later found

3815
03:17:07,040 --> 03:17:08,760
Speaker 2: out that it's because he was hitting on a fifteen

3816
03:17:08,800 --> 03:17:10,200
Speaker 2: year old girl, like he was trying to.

3817
03:17:10,200 --> 03:17:12,840
Speaker 1: Flirt with their daughter and stuff like it. It's like

3818
03:17:12,920 --> 03:17:17,000
Speaker 1: that sort of situation where it's like, well, good, I guess,

3819
03:17:17,280 --> 03:17:20,800
Speaker 1: like he stops a robbery because he was peeping through

3820
03:17:20,840 --> 03:17:22,360
Speaker 1: a window that he fell through.

3821
03:17:22,879 --> 03:17:26,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, yeah, it is. It is hard to find

3822
03:17:26,879 --> 03:17:33,640
Speaker 2: the moral lesson to take out of this here. So yeah,

3823
03:17:33,680 --> 03:17:37,280
Speaker 2: obviously the Reagan wright loses their minds over what Kissinger's

3824
03:17:37,320 --> 03:17:41,039
Speaker 2: doing here. Pat Buchanan, a former Nixon spear, writes in

3825
03:17:41,080 --> 03:17:43,760
Speaker 2: a column quote, it is too early to determine if

3826
03:17:43,760 --> 03:17:47,560
Speaker 2: Secretary of State Henry Kissinger's safari through Black Africa did

3827
03:17:47,600 --> 03:17:50,960
Speaker 2: greater damage to US policy interests or to President Ford's

3828
03:17:50,959 --> 03:17:52,599
Speaker 2: hopes in the remaining primaries.

3829
03:17:53,520 --> 03:17:56,800
Speaker 1: I mean again, I like he just it needs to stop.

3830
03:17:56,840 --> 03:17:59,560
Speaker 1: Where like this this never ending? What is a duty?

3831
03:17:59,560 --> 03:18:02,600
Speaker 1: A real election chance? As shit, It's like we are

3832
03:18:02,680 --> 03:18:07,039
Speaker 1: so conditioned to that being how we operate and do everything,

3833
03:18:07,480 --> 03:18:10,040
Speaker 1: as opposed to actually just trying to do the thing

3834
03:18:10,080 --> 03:18:12,240
Speaker 1: that does long term good.

3835
03:18:12,959 --> 03:18:14,520
Speaker 2: And why would you do the thing that is long

3836
03:18:14,600 --> 03:18:15,040
Speaker 2: term good?

3837
03:18:16,640 --> 03:18:19,720
Speaker 1: Exactly? You're right, you're right. I mean, it's true, but

3838
03:18:19,840 --> 03:18:23,640
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, it's just it's a foregun conclusion.

3839
03:18:23,680 --> 03:18:26,120
Speaker 1: Now that everything is viewed through the prism of what

3840
03:18:26,160 --> 03:18:28,160
Speaker 1: does it do to the poll numbers? Can I just

3841
03:18:28,200 --> 03:18:30,840
Speaker 1: say take off your masks? Yeah?

3842
03:18:31,040 --> 03:18:36,560
Speaker 2: Right, So, Kishinger did not achieve a tremendous amount in

3843
03:18:36,680 --> 03:18:40,360
Speaker 2: Rhodesia while he was Secretary of State. He got Ian Smith,

3844
03:18:40,360 --> 03:18:42,520
Speaker 2: who's the leader of Rhodesia, to agree to a two

3845
03:18:42,680 --> 03:18:46,600
Speaker 2: year turnover from minority rule to an actual democracy. But

3846
03:18:46,680 --> 03:18:49,000
Speaker 2: the way he did this was by assuring Smith that

3847
03:18:49,040 --> 03:18:52,400
Speaker 2: black moderates had agreed that during the turnover, whites would

3848
03:18:52,400 --> 03:18:54,320
Speaker 2: remain in control of the military and police.

3849
03:18:54,800 --> 03:18:55,680
Speaker 1: This was a lie.

3850
03:18:55,760 --> 03:18:59,280
Speaker 2: The black people in Rudie, like the black moderates in Rhodesia,

3851
03:18:59,320 --> 03:19:00,440
Speaker 2: had never agree to this.

3852
03:19:00,720 --> 03:19:02,640
Speaker 1: He's just lying the Smith to get him to agree

3853
03:19:02,640 --> 03:19:05,920
Speaker 1: to this. And on the whole, like anytime there's like

3854
03:19:05,959 --> 03:19:09,480
Speaker 1: a two year deal that you're like, that's just your

3855
03:19:09,520 --> 03:19:12,560
Speaker 1: way of like letting it sort of settle so that

3856
03:19:12,600 --> 03:19:15,360
Speaker 1: you can pushing you the fuckery exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

3857
03:19:15,879 --> 03:19:18,680
Speaker 2: The story of the negotiations is classic Kissinger. He's telling

3858
03:19:18,680 --> 03:19:20,440
Speaker 2: everyone what they want to hear. And then kind of

3859
03:19:20,440 --> 03:19:22,879
Speaker 2: weaseling his way into getting people to sign things that

3860
03:19:22,920 --> 03:19:24,920
Speaker 2: make him look good. This right up from the New

3861
03:19:25,000 --> 03:19:28,119
Speaker 2: York Times sums it up well. Mister Smith has said

3862
03:19:28,120 --> 03:19:29,920
Speaker 2: he agrees to the five point plan he made in

3863
03:19:29,959 --> 03:19:32,840
Speaker 2: public because he had received assurances from mister Kissinger that

3864
03:19:32,879 --> 03:19:35,320
Speaker 2: the black leaders had accepted the whole package, including mister

3865
03:19:35,360 --> 03:19:38,560
Speaker 2: Smith's addition on white on the white ministers. In his view,

3866
03:19:38,680 --> 03:19:41,520
Speaker 2: either the Blacks have renegged or mister Kissinger misled him.

3867
03:19:41,640 --> 03:19:45,480
Speaker 2: The Blacks, such as President Julius Nurere of Tanzania, insists

3868
03:19:45,480 --> 03:19:47,480
Speaker 2: that they did not give their approval to the details

3869
03:19:47,480 --> 03:19:49,720
Speaker 2: of the five point plan, only to the general thrust

3870
03:19:49,720 --> 03:19:52,279
Speaker 2: of majority rule in two years, leaving it to Britain

3871
03:19:52,320 --> 03:19:54,640
Speaker 2: to work out details later with black and white Rhodesians.

3872
03:19:55,040 --> 03:19:57,680
Speaker 2: They say they would have rejected the proposal for white ministers.

3873
03:19:58,000 --> 03:20:00,680
Speaker 2: Mister Kissinger and his aides have been evasive. On October

3874
03:20:00,720 --> 03:20:04,039
Speaker 2: twenty fourth, mister Kissinger said on television that I think

3875
03:20:04,120 --> 03:20:05,840
Speaker 2: everybody is telling the truth.

3876
03:20:06,440 --> 03:20:11,959
Speaker 1: Wow. What an incredible guy.

3877
03:20:14,160 --> 03:20:19,680
Speaker 9: Wow, the baddest. That is the best bullshit statement I've.

3878
03:20:19,560 --> 03:20:24,280
Speaker 1: Ever It's out. I believe, I'm not sure. I don't

3879
03:20:24,320 --> 03:20:27,119
Speaker 1: everyone lying, it's awesome.

3880
03:20:27,360 --> 03:20:31,800
Speaker 2: I think everyone who is the bad guy in Rhodesia nobody, nobody.

3881
03:20:33,440 --> 03:20:38,360
Speaker 1: I think everyone's cool. You need a bad guy.

3882
03:20:39,280 --> 03:20:42,039
Speaker 2: In the end, the talks collapsed. The war continued on

3883
03:20:42,120 --> 03:20:44,840
Speaker 2: for two more years until the Rhodesian Strategic Fuel Reserve

3884
03:20:44,920 --> 03:20:47,120
Speaker 2: was blown up by insurgents and the government was forced

3885
03:20:47,120 --> 03:20:50,000
Speaker 2: to the table. Kissinger and his supporters would later claim

3886
03:20:50,000 --> 03:20:53,200
Speaker 2: that the eventual piece was negotiated on the terms laid

3887
03:20:53,200 --> 03:20:58,320
Speaker 2: out during Kissinger's negotiations. That's kind of questionable. It's probably

3888
03:20:58,320 --> 03:21:01,160
Speaker 2: it is fair to say that that by coming in

3889
03:21:01,320 --> 03:21:03,720
Speaker 2: very strongly, and he was very unequivocal about condemning the

3890
03:21:03,720 --> 03:21:07,240
Speaker 2: government of Rhodesia. By doing this as the Secretary of State,

3891
03:21:07,640 --> 03:21:11,280
Speaker 2: Kissinger caused a shift that led to a significant increase

3892
03:21:11,400 --> 03:21:18,480
Speaker 2: in trust of the US by black African nations. You know, yeah,

3893
03:21:18,560 --> 03:21:23,840
Speaker 2: obviously it's one of his better moves from an ethical standpoint,

3894
03:21:23,920 --> 03:21:27,640
Speaker 2: but it's an ego move still. Everything is an ego movement,

3895
03:21:27,680 --> 03:21:31,400
Speaker 2: and obviously it's a it's a sign of how much

3896
03:21:31,440 --> 03:21:34,959
Speaker 2: more fucked up things become that doing this broadly good

3897
03:21:35,120 --> 03:21:37,920
Speaker 2: thing causes the beginning of the end of his career

3898
03:21:37,920 --> 03:21:38,640
Speaker 2: in politics.

3899
03:21:39,800 --> 03:21:42,480
Speaker 1: Of course, it's like, we're gonna can't help you can't

3900
03:21:42,480 --> 03:21:44,199
Speaker 1: help the black people. That's it. You're done.

3901
03:21:44,280 --> 03:21:47,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's it for you, kissing. But to be fair,

3902
03:21:47,280 --> 03:21:49,560
Speaker 2: it worked for me. That's why I did it. We

3903
03:21:49,680 --> 03:21:54,080
Speaker 2: know her, but we know buddy. But you know what

3904
03:21:54,800 --> 03:21:59,119
Speaker 2: won't fail to.

3905
03:21:57,840 --> 03:21:59,680
Speaker 1: Bring peace to Rhodesia. What's that?

3906
03:22:00,120 --> 03:22:03,680
Speaker 2: The sponsors of this podcast orchestrated the destruction of the

3907
03:22:03,760 --> 03:22:08,879
Speaker 2: Rhodesian Strategic Fueld Reserve. That is, we are sponsored entirely

3908
03:22:09,680 --> 03:22:22,400
Speaker 2: bye by the Rhodesian rebel forces. Here's an ad ah,

3909
03:22:22,440 --> 03:22:28,320
Speaker 2: we're back. Good stuff. Yes, yes, so yeah.

3910
03:22:28,360 --> 03:22:29,000
Speaker 1: On the whole.

3911
03:22:29,120 --> 03:22:32,279
Speaker 2: Kissinger's last year or so as Secretary of State involved

3912
03:22:32,280 --> 03:22:35,160
Speaker 2: his least number of war crimes per month, which might

3913
03:22:35,280 --> 03:22:37,879
Speaker 2: point to personal growth, but probably points to the fact

3914
03:22:37,920 --> 03:22:40,520
Speaker 2: that he and Nixon had just exhausted the US government's

3915
03:22:40,520 --> 03:22:43,200
Speaker 2: ability to do shady shit. We needed a breather, right,

3916
03:22:43,240 --> 03:22:45,440
Speaker 2: We had to take a breather. It took us a

3917
03:22:45,440 --> 03:22:47,680
Speaker 2: few years to get geared up. For Reagan, you know,

3918
03:22:48,080 --> 03:22:50,359
Speaker 2: he's like he's been go ahead.

3919
03:22:50,120 --> 03:22:53,280
Speaker 1: David, We've just kidded so many there's like no, like

3920
03:22:53,800 --> 03:22:56,760
Speaker 1: we dig them up and kill them again. Like it's hard,

3921
03:22:57,280 --> 03:23:01,000
Speaker 1: We're out of ammunition. He's like, he's not are starting QB.

3922
03:23:01,120 --> 03:23:03,199
Speaker 1: He's being traded. He's riding the pine.

3923
03:23:03,680 --> 03:23:06,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got like I got a wrist injury, you know.

3924
03:23:06,480 --> 03:23:08,080
Speaker 1: He's yeah, he's on IR for the year.

3925
03:23:08,320 --> 03:23:11,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the last one of his escapades we're going

3926
03:23:11,720 --> 03:23:16,720
Speaker 2: to cover. Then his Kissinger's relationship with the Kurds, not munk.

3927
03:23:17,000 --> 03:23:20,520
Speaker 1: Ye baby, Jesus fucking Christ.

3928
03:23:20,720 --> 03:23:23,200
Speaker 2: The Kurdish people are the largest ethnic group on Earth

3929
03:23:23,200 --> 03:23:25,360
Speaker 2: without a nation of their own. They make up large

3930
03:23:25,440 --> 03:23:29,400
Speaker 2: chunks of southern Turkey, southern Iran, northern Iraq, in northeast Syria. Now,

3931
03:23:29,440 --> 03:23:31,600
Speaker 2: if you look at this kind of broad Kurdistan region

3932
03:23:31,640 --> 03:23:33,400
Speaker 2: on a map, you'll notice a couple of things. For one,

3933
03:23:33,720 --> 03:23:36,360
Speaker 2: it's all landlocked, which means if if you were and

3934
03:23:36,400 --> 03:23:39,160
Speaker 2: there was a lot of talk when like colonial powers

3935
03:23:39,240 --> 03:23:41,600
Speaker 2: left started to leave the Middle East after World War

3936
03:23:41,680 --> 03:23:42,360
Speaker 2: Two that like.

3937
03:23:42,560 --> 03:23:45,520
Speaker 1: Should and promises were in fact made to the Kurds.

3938
03:23:46,280 --> 03:23:47,879
Speaker 2: One of the issues that comes up is that it's

3939
03:23:47,879 --> 03:23:51,120
Speaker 2: going to cause like severe economic difficulties because they would

3940
03:23:51,120 --> 03:23:54,840
Speaker 2: be landlocked. You'll also note that their territories all tend

3941
03:23:54,840 --> 03:23:56,720
Speaker 2: to exist in chunks of states that have wound up

3942
03:23:56,720 --> 03:23:59,920
Speaker 2: fighting each other repeatedly over the last half century or so. Right,

3943
03:24:00,240 --> 03:24:03,480
Speaker 2: Turkey and Syria, Iran and exactly and the Kurds were

3944
03:24:03,560 --> 03:24:06,920
Speaker 2: used on purpose by basically everyone as buffer zones and

3945
03:24:07,000 --> 03:24:12,360
Speaker 2: proxy fighters in these conflicts. Now, starting in the Nition administration,

3946
03:24:12,520 --> 03:24:15,720
Speaker 2: the Shah of Iran had a problem. He was engaged

3947
03:24:15,760 --> 03:24:18,959
Speaker 2: in an escalating conflict with a new sexy, young dude

3948
03:24:19,000 --> 03:24:21,160
Speaker 2: on the block, Saddam Hussein of Iraq.

3949
03:24:21,600 --> 03:24:24,120
Speaker 1: Now, can I just say right away, I like both

3950
03:24:24,160 --> 03:24:26,960
Speaker 1: these guys. They seem like they're both gonna go good places.

3951
03:24:30,560 --> 03:24:34,160
Speaker 2: So the Shad asides he wants to arm. He wants

3952
03:24:34,200 --> 03:24:36,560
Speaker 2: the US to arm Kurdish fighters in order to give

3953
03:24:36,600 --> 03:24:40,800
Speaker 2: Saddam some trouble and ease up pressure. The ostensible leader

3954
03:24:40,800 --> 03:24:43,040
Speaker 2: of the Kurdish people struggle in Iraq at this time

3955
03:24:43,160 --> 03:24:46,520
Speaker 2: is a guy named Mustafa Barzani. Now, Mustafa had been

3956
03:24:46,600 --> 03:24:49,200
Speaker 2: leading his people in battle against the Iraqi State prior

3957
03:24:49,240 --> 03:24:51,600
Speaker 2: to Saddam taking power for like a decade at this point,

3958
03:24:51,840 --> 03:24:54,440
Speaker 2: and he had repeatedly begged the United States for aid.

3959
03:24:54,959 --> 03:24:58,240
Speaker 2: The US traditionally did not like Barzani because he had

3960
03:24:58,240 --> 03:25:00,720
Speaker 2: spent a decade exiled in the Soviet Union and had

3961
03:25:00,720 --> 03:25:04,840
Speaker 2: some socialist e tendencies, but the Israelis and the Shah

3962
03:25:04,920 --> 03:25:07,840
Speaker 2: had experienced great luck in using the Kurds to keep Saddam,

3963
03:25:07,879 --> 03:25:11,199
Speaker 2: who taken power pretty recently, off of their back. Kurdish

3964
03:25:11,240 --> 03:25:14,520
Speaker 2: rebels tied up eighty percent of the Iraqi military during

3965
03:25:14,560 --> 03:25:17,119
Speaker 2: the nineteen sixty seven war against Israel and are probably

3966
03:25:17,160 --> 03:25:19,120
Speaker 2: a big part of the reason why Iraq did not

3967
03:25:19,320 --> 03:25:22,800
Speaker 2: join in that war. In April of nineteen seventy two,

3968
03:25:22,840 --> 03:25:25,760
Speaker 2: Saddam signed a treaty of friendship with the Soviet Union.

3969
03:25:26,120 --> 03:25:28,800
Speaker 2: This finally tipped things for the next dam Friendship is

3970
03:25:28,879 --> 03:25:29,640
Speaker 2: just a great term.

3971
03:25:29,760 --> 03:25:31,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it is a nice term.

3972
03:25:31,440 --> 03:25:31,720
Speaker 2: Good.

3973
03:25:32,160 --> 03:25:34,320
Speaker 1: It's like a bro my BFF when I was seven

3974
03:25:34,320 --> 03:25:38,160
Speaker 1: at a tree house. Yeah, can you sign my broke

3975
03:25:38,200 --> 03:25:41,880
Speaker 1: on tract? Yeah, I'm bros. It comes with AK forty seven.

3976
03:25:42,000 --> 03:25:44,680
Speaker 1: So we are signing the BFF treaty.

3977
03:25:44,959 --> 03:25:48,200
Speaker 2: So this finally tips things for the Nixon administration, and

3978
03:25:48,320 --> 03:25:51,280
Speaker 2: Kissinger gives the go ahead for CIA Director Richard Helms

3979
03:25:51,280 --> 03:25:53,920
Speaker 2: to express American sympathy with the Kurds and to clear

3980
03:25:53,959 --> 03:25:58,760
Speaker 2: our quote readiness to consider their requests for assistance. Next

3981
03:25:58,800 --> 03:26:01,520
Speaker 2: from a write up, in Foreign Paul. In early nineteen

3982
03:26:01,560 --> 03:26:04,200
Speaker 2: seventy four, Saddam violated the terms of the March Accurt

3983
03:26:04,240 --> 03:26:07,240
Speaker 2: and unilaterally imposed a watered down version of autonomy for

3984
03:26:07,280 --> 03:26:10,480
Speaker 2: the Kurds. Barzani responded by traveling to Iran, where he

3985
03:26:10,520 --> 03:26:12,840
Speaker 2: met with the SHAW and the CIA's station chief to

3986
03:26:12,879 --> 03:26:15,039
Speaker 2: request US backing for a plan to set up an

3987
03:26:15,080 --> 03:26:17,480
Speaker 2: Arab Kurdish government that would claim to be the sole

3988
03:26:17,560 --> 03:26:20,600
Speaker 2: legitimate government of Iraq. As Kissinger wrote in his nineteen

3989
03:26:20,640 --> 03:26:23,880
Speaker 2: ninety nine memoire Years of Renewal, Barzani's request triggered a

3990
03:26:23,879 --> 03:26:27,280
Speaker 2: flood of communications among US officials focused on two questions,

3991
03:26:27,480 --> 03:26:30,440
Speaker 2: whether the United States would support a unilateral declaration of

3992
03:26:30,480 --> 03:26:33,080
Speaker 2: autonomy and what level of support the United States was

3993
03:26:33,120 --> 03:26:36,320
Speaker 2: willing to give the Kurds. The CIA in particular warned

3994
03:26:36,320 --> 03:26:40,920
Speaker 2: against increasing US assistance, but Kissinger was dismissive of CIA

3995
03:26:41,000 --> 03:26:46,160
Speaker 2: Director William Colby's caution, writing Kolby's resistance was as unrealistic

3996
03:26:46,200 --> 03:26:51,279
Speaker 2: as Barzani's enthusiasm. Nixon ultimately decided to INCREASEIA to increase

3997
03:26:51,400 --> 03:26:54,200
Speaker 2: US assistance to the Kurds, including the provision of nine

3998
03:26:54,320 --> 03:26:57,000
Speaker 2: hundred thousand pounds of Soviet made weapons that the CIA

3999
03:26:57,040 --> 03:26:59,600
Speaker 2: had stockpiled, and a one million dollar lump sum of

4000
03:26:59,600 --> 03:27:03,640
Speaker 2: refuge assistance. In April of nineteen seventy four, Kissinger saying.

4001
03:27:04,800 --> 03:27:09,240
Speaker 1: Why why the Soviet weapons? Is that to confuse things?

4002
03:27:09,440 --> 03:27:11,480
Speaker 2: You don't want people seeing them with US weapons. That's

4003
03:27:11,480 --> 03:27:13,080
Speaker 2: going to make it seem like we're involved.

4004
03:27:12,760 --> 03:27:20,480
Speaker 1: In what amazing? What an amazing move. I mean, it's

4005
03:27:20,600 --> 03:27:25,040
Speaker 1: dope to commit a murder. Yeah.

4006
03:27:25,120 --> 03:27:28,880
Speaker 2: So in April of nineteen seventy four, Kissinger sent Nixon's

4007
03:27:28,959 --> 03:27:31,840
Speaker 2: orders to the US ambassador in Tehran. This cable was

4008
03:27:31,879 --> 03:27:34,640
Speaker 2: important because it laid out a succinct proclamation of US

4009
03:27:34,640 --> 03:27:37,560
Speaker 2: interests visa vi the Kurds. The objectives he wrote were

4010
03:27:37,560 --> 03:27:40,439
Speaker 2: to a give the Kurds capacity to maintain a reasonable

4011
03:27:40,440 --> 03:27:43,720
Speaker 2: base for negotiating recognition of rights by Baghdad government. B

4012
03:27:43,920 --> 03:27:46,920
Speaker 2: To keep present Iraqi government tied down, but see not

4013
03:27:46,959 --> 03:27:50,440
Speaker 2: to divide Iraq permanently, because an independent Kurdish area would

4014
03:27:50,440 --> 03:27:53,520
Speaker 2: not be economically viable, and US and Iran have no

4015
03:27:53,560 --> 03:27:56,000
Speaker 2: interest in closing the door on good relations with Iraq

4016
03:27:56,080 --> 03:27:58,400
Speaker 2: under moderate leadership.

4017
03:27:59,760 --> 03:28:02,520
Speaker 9: There art are I mean, I'm not creat but there

4018
03:28:02,520 --> 03:28:05,920
Speaker 9: are landlocked countries that Yeah, Economics Bible.

4019
03:28:05,800 --> 03:28:07,880
Speaker 1: And Kurtis stands a huge amount of oil.

4020
03:28:08,080 --> 03:28:11,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's such a crazy thing that they're saying, like,

4021
03:28:11,280 --> 03:28:14,279
Speaker 9: it's just it's fucking insane what they.

4022
03:28:14,120 --> 03:28:16,680
Speaker 2: Are doing and what Kissinger is establishing and writing. Here

4023
03:28:16,879 --> 03:28:19,879
Speaker 2: is US policy towards Kurdish people for more than half

4024
03:28:19,920 --> 03:28:22,760
Speaker 2: a century. And the idea comes down to, we will

4025
03:28:22,760 --> 03:28:25,560
Speaker 2: provide them with aid and weapons when they fight our enemies,

4026
03:28:25,600 --> 03:28:28,520
Speaker 2: but only to such an extent that they achieve minor

4027
03:28:28,600 --> 03:28:32,920
Speaker 2: tactical successes, never enough to allow them permanent autonomy, because

4028
03:28:32,920 --> 03:28:34,560
Speaker 2: that's going to upset the balance of power.

4029
03:28:34,640 --> 03:28:36,440
Speaker 1: Right, right, this has been ever since.

4030
03:28:36,480 --> 03:28:38,520
Speaker 2: This is what we do with the Kurds, right, And

4031
03:28:38,640 --> 03:28:42,120
Speaker 2: Kissinger is the guy who lays it out first. Now,

4032
03:28:42,360 --> 03:28:45,560
Speaker 2: Mustapha Barzani made the terrible mistake of believing that the

4033
03:28:45,640 --> 03:28:49,320
Speaker 2: US actually supported his people's independence. For three years, the

4034
03:28:49,400 --> 03:28:53,440
Speaker 2: Kurds battled Saddam, sustaining thousands of casualties. But then in

4035
03:28:53,520 --> 03:28:56,600
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five, the Shah and Saddam made peace, and

4036
03:28:56,640 --> 03:28:59,039
Speaker 2: the SHAW asked the CIA to cut off all aid

4037
03:28:59,080 --> 03:29:00,960
Speaker 2: to the Kurds as part of a deal with Iraq.

4038
03:29:01,520 --> 03:29:04,720
Speaker 2: The weapons Kurdish fighters had relied upon suddenly dried up.

4039
03:29:04,920 --> 03:29:08,440
Speaker 2: Barzani's fighters were massacred. Thousands fled to Iran but were

4040
03:29:08,440 --> 03:29:12,600
Speaker 2: turned away by the Shaw. Desperate Mustafa cabled Kissinger, whom

4041
03:29:12,640 --> 03:29:15,440
Speaker 2: he had gratefully sent three rugs in a golden pearl

4042
03:29:15,440 --> 03:29:19,920
Speaker 2: necklace's wedding gifts just months earlier. Your excellency, the United

4043
03:29:19,959 --> 03:29:23,080
Speaker 2: States has a moral and political responsibility to our people.

4044
03:29:23,600 --> 03:29:27,199
Speaker 2: Kissinger never replied. Later that year, the House Intelligence Committee

4045
03:29:27,200 --> 03:29:30,760
Speaker 2: asked him to justify this betrayal. He responded, covert actions

4046
03:29:30,760 --> 03:29:32,800
Speaker 2: should not be confused with missionary work.

4047
03:29:32,920 --> 03:29:37,039
Speaker 1: Oh my god, what's so cool? Like you don't understand

4048
03:29:37,080 --> 03:29:41,279
Speaker 1: that sometimes I'm also just doing missionary stuff. Hmm. Yeah.

4049
03:29:41,800 --> 03:29:44,119
Speaker 1: The key is that I don't give a shit.

4050
03:29:44,600 --> 03:29:47,000
Speaker 4: As he stands naked on his rug with just his

4051
03:29:47,120 --> 03:29:48,320
Speaker 4: pearl necklace an.

4052
03:29:48,920 --> 03:29:53,680
Speaker 2: Speaking of missionary So in the nineteen seventy six presidential elections,

4053
03:29:53,840 --> 03:29:57,520
Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan attempted to primary Gerald Ford from the right.

4054
03:29:57,760 --> 03:30:01,360
Speaker 2: The Reagan campaign targeted Kissinger heavily, not for his numerous

4055
03:30:01,360 --> 03:30:03,240
Speaker 2: war crimes, but because of the fact that he had

4056
03:30:03,280 --> 03:30:05,800
Speaker 2: made it a taunt with the Soviet Union. Right, that's

4057
03:30:05,840 --> 03:30:07,119
Speaker 2: why they're a because.

4058
03:30:06,920 --> 03:30:09,920
Speaker 1: It's amazing to be like, you know what, the rights

4059
03:30:09,920 --> 03:30:12,520
Speaker 1: actually got a point. He committed war crimes in Vietnam.

4060
03:30:12,640 --> 03:30:14,680
Speaker 1: I mean, you're talking about a guy who's killed millions

4061
03:30:14,680 --> 03:30:17,959
Speaker 1: of innocent people. No, that's actually not that said, we're

4062
03:30:18,000 --> 03:30:21,840
Speaker 1: at the peace stuff. We're pissing angry some of this

4063
03:30:21,920 --> 03:30:23,120
Speaker 1: peace stuff he's been lacking in.

4064
03:30:23,320 --> 03:30:26,640
Speaker 2: They are specifically they're livid that like part of the

4065
03:30:26,720 --> 03:30:30,240
Speaker 2: detent means Kissinger was like, we're not going to fuck

4066
03:30:30,280 --> 03:30:34,400
Speaker 2: with Soviet spheres of influence in Eastern Europe. And Reagan

4067
03:30:34,480 --> 03:30:36,360
Speaker 2: and his colleagues are like, well, this means they're just

4068
03:30:36,360 --> 03:30:38,760
Speaker 2: giving up Eastern Europe to communism, you know.

4069
03:30:39,840 --> 03:30:46,160
Speaker 1: Right, always communism, exactly fascist communists. I mean yeah, got it.

4070
03:30:46,600 --> 03:30:50,039
Speaker 2: And Kissinger's political instincts and charm we're sufficient to fend

4071
03:30:50,080 --> 03:30:53,040
Speaker 2: off an attempt because there's within the Ford administration, there

4072
03:30:53,120 --> 03:30:55,040
Speaker 2: is an attempt to get Ford to promise to fire

4073
03:30:55,080 --> 03:30:57,280
Speaker 2: him in a second term, largely because they think it'll

4074
03:30:57,280 --> 03:31:00,800
Speaker 2: help him win the primary against Reagan. And Nixon beats

4075
03:31:00,840 --> 03:31:03,040
Speaker 2: everyone here. He manages to get forward to be like, no,

4076
03:31:03,120 --> 03:31:05,160
Speaker 2: I would never fire Henry Kissinger.

4077
03:31:05,280 --> 03:31:05,520
Speaker 1: But this.

4078
03:31:07,120 --> 03:31:09,560
Speaker 2: No, no, no, not Nixon. Kissinger succeeds in doing that

4079
03:31:09,600 --> 03:31:09,920
Speaker 2: with four.

4080
03:31:10,120 --> 03:31:12,560
Speaker 1: Okay, I thought, like I was like, if you're listening,

4081
03:31:14,160 --> 03:31:16,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot of nixident are you know you mix

4082
03:31:16,040 --> 03:31:20,520
Speaker 1: it up. He's just at a cupboard in the White House. Still, Gerald,

4083
03:31:20,640 --> 03:31:23,440
Speaker 1: get me some Gin also keep Hank around.

4084
03:31:24,560 --> 03:31:28,120
Speaker 2: So the fact that Henry wins the fight within the

4085
03:31:28,120 --> 03:31:32,240
Speaker 2: Ford administration means that he becomes like a major marketing

4086
03:31:32,360 --> 03:31:35,720
Speaker 2: term for the Reagan campaign, right, like they do not stop.

4087
03:31:35,959 --> 03:31:38,800
Speaker 2: In fact, they instituted a plank in the Republican Party

4088
03:31:38,840 --> 03:31:41,800
Speaker 2: that year that's basically the anti Kissinger plank that says, like,

4089
03:31:42,040 --> 03:31:45,480
Speaker 2: you will never accept that like communist states should exist anywhere.

4090
03:31:45,560 --> 03:31:49,040
Speaker 1: Essentially, that's kind of what they do. Okay, stabbing him

4091
03:31:49,040 --> 03:31:50,039
Speaker 1: in the heart.

4092
03:31:49,879 --> 03:31:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah it is. It's amazing, and it's amazing. It's a

4093
03:31:53,600 --> 03:31:55,680
Speaker 2: it's a mark of like how much he fucked things

4094
03:31:55,760 --> 03:31:57,880
Speaker 2: up that you can't even feel good about his downfall

4095
03:31:57,920 --> 03:32:03,360
Speaker 2: because he's replaced by people who just sucking. More So,

4096
03:32:03,959 --> 03:32:07,200
Speaker 2: Ronnie felt the spheres of influence that Kissinger had established

4097
03:32:07,240 --> 03:32:09,400
Speaker 2: with the Soviet Union were yeah, giving up the Eastern

4098
03:32:10,080 --> 03:32:13,640
Speaker 2: like block to communism. He also attacked Kissinger for negotiating

4099
03:32:13,640 --> 03:32:16,280
Speaker 2: with Panama's new government because Henry was willing to give

4100
03:32:16,320 --> 03:32:18,640
Speaker 2: the Panama Canal back to the Panamanian people.

4101
03:32:22,000 --> 03:32:27,760
Speaker 1: Canal. Ye, so, and Reagan wrote that thing. But they

4102
03:32:27,800 --> 03:32:31,400
Speaker 1: were so fucking bad. There's no clay, have no claim

4103
03:32:31,480 --> 03:32:34,080
Speaker 1: to that canal. Yeah, Reagan said in a speech.

4104
03:32:34,120 --> 03:32:36,240
Speaker 2: We built it, we paid for it, and were going.

4105
03:32:36,080 --> 03:32:36,560
Speaker 1: To keep it.

4106
03:32:38,040 --> 03:32:40,760
Speaker 2: Refer to our two parter on the US and Panama

4107
03:32:41,520 --> 03:32:45,440
Speaker 2: or on that one. So Reagan's primary attempt failed, but

4108
03:32:45,480 --> 03:32:49,320
Speaker 2: by struggling against the rising far right, Kissinger had hammered

4109
03:32:49,360 --> 03:32:52,720
Speaker 2: the final nail into his political careers coffin. In the

4110
03:32:52,720 --> 03:32:57,120
Speaker 2: Ford administration's last days, a dark alliance materialized, and, smelling

4111
03:32:57,160 --> 03:32:59,920
Speaker 2: blood in the water, they acted to cut Kissinger off

4112
03:33:00,120 --> 03:33:03,720
Speaker 2: many future career in Republican politics. The three main members

4113
03:33:03,720 --> 03:33:07,600
Speaker 2: of this alliance were Paul Wolfowitz from the CIA, Vice

4114
03:33:07,640 --> 03:33:11,000
Speaker 2: President Dick Cheney, and Secretary of Defense Donald Bright.

4115
03:33:15,040 --> 03:33:22,000
Speaker 1: Baby. Yeah, like there's four Kissingers. It's like killing Satan

4116
03:33:22,280 --> 03:33:26,320
Speaker 1: and then three winged demons fly out of him. Yeah,

4117
03:33:26,360 --> 03:33:27,720
Speaker 1: it's so funny.

4118
03:33:27,840 --> 03:33:33,840
Speaker 2: It is so funny, good, really funny and in fact

4119
03:33:33,959 --> 03:33:38,880
Speaker 2: so uh Kissinger. His Kissinger like Rumsfeld, he sees is

4120
03:33:38,920 --> 03:33:42,160
Speaker 2: almost like a protege. Like he and Rumsfeld are very close,

4121
03:33:42,560 --> 03:33:45,600
Speaker 2: and when Rumsfeld turns against him, Kissinger describes him as

4122
03:33:45,640 --> 03:33:48,240
Speaker 2: quote the rottenest person I've known in government, which is

4123
03:33:50,760 --> 03:33:55,720
Speaker 2: Henry from you, utterly meaning honestly, absolutely meaning that's from you.

4124
03:33:55,879 --> 03:34:02,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you're not a Yeah, it's so funny. It's

4125
03:34:02,400 --> 03:34:03,760
Speaker 1: so funny.

4126
03:34:03,840 --> 03:34:06,560
Speaker 2: So it's not funny for all the people who are

4127
03:34:06,600 --> 03:34:08,560
Speaker 2: going to die, but it's kind it's funny in like

4128
03:34:08,600 --> 03:34:11,600
Speaker 2: an existential sense, like if you're if you're an alien

4129
03:34:11,640 --> 03:34:13,920
Speaker 2: looking at all, this like a TV show, it's pretty funny.

4130
03:34:14,000 --> 03:34:16,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd be like, why don't they got a good guy.

4131
03:34:16,959 --> 03:34:21,680
Speaker 1: You're like, well, it's really yeah, explained, but they just don't.

4132
03:34:22,000 --> 03:34:24,400
Speaker 1: If you can't laugh at all the people dying? Are

4133
03:34:24,400 --> 03:34:27,800
Speaker 1: you an American? Yeah? No, the answer was no. By

4134
03:34:27,800 --> 03:34:30,680
Speaker 1: the way, the first time that Nixon heard that Kissinger

4135
03:34:30,760 --> 03:34:33,000
Speaker 1: was working with the guy named Rumsfeld, he was like, well,

4136
03:34:33,120 --> 03:34:34,720
Speaker 1: pour him in a glass for me, get some mice

4137
03:34:34,800 --> 03:34:37,560
Speaker 1: on it.

4138
03:34:39,040 --> 03:34:41,320
Speaker 2: So Rumsfeld and Cheney worked within the White House.

4139
03:34:41,879 --> 03:34:43,680
Speaker 1: God, I can't believe I got to hear their name.

4140
03:34:43,879 --> 03:34:46,520
Speaker 1: I know, I know, baby, I know well.

4141
03:34:46,560 --> 03:34:49,520
Speaker 2: Wolf of Witz is part of the CIA's Team B.

4142
03:34:50,160 --> 03:34:50,360
Speaker 1: Now.

4143
03:34:50,480 --> 03:34:53,320
Speaker 2: Team B is an intelligence review board set up by

4144
03:34:53,360 --> 03:34:56,240
Speaker 2: Gerald Ford as a sop to the far right the

4145
03:34:56,280 --> 03:34:59,120
Speaker 2: Reagan Conservatives, who he's again trying to win over and

4146
03:34:59,160 --> 03:35:01,879
Speaker 2: get behind him so can win election against Carter. The

4147
03:35:01,959 --> 03:35:05,320
Speaker 2: Reagan Conservatives were certain the agency had been the CIA,

4148
03:35:05,360 --> 03:35:08,400
Speaker 2: I mean, had been under reporting Soviet military power because

4149
03:35:08,400 --> 03:35:10,760
Speaker 2: the Soviet military and like the early chunk of the

4150
03:35:10,760 --> 03:35:13,840
Speaker 2: Ford administration is like they're actually not doing great, Like

4151
03:35:13,959 --> 03:35:16,039
Speaker 2: they're like, we we really don't need to keep buying

4152
03:35:16,080 --> 03:35:17,160
Speaker 2: a shitload of weapons.

4153
03:35:17,200 --> 03:35:17,920
Speaker 1: Like they're not.

4154
03:35:18,000 --> 03:35:20,560
Speaker 2: They're not they don't have the kind of military assets

4155
03:35:20,600 --> 03:35:21,880
Speaker 2: that we've been saying for years.

4156
03:35:23,040 --> 03:35:26,760
Speaker 1: So they now are getting a shady CIA inside of

4157
03:35:26,840 --> 03:35:28,040
Speaker 1: well shady CIA.

4158
03:35:28,360 --> 03:35:31,200
Speaker 2: Yes, this is like this it's like a Russian nesting

4159
03:35:31,280 --> 03:35:33,400
Speaker 2: doll of the CIA inside the CIA.

4160
03:35:34,920 --> 03:35:35,320
Speaker 1: CIA.

4161
03:35:38,480 --> 03:35:42,040
Speaker 2: So the Reagan Conservatives were certain that the CIA had

4162
03:35:42,040 --> 03:35:45,360
Speaker 2: been under reporting Soviet military power, and Team B like

4163
03:35:45,640 --> 03:35:48,120
Speaker 2: was basically Ford gave them Team B so that they

4164
03:35:48,160 --> 03:35:51,360
Speaker 2: could get new appraisals that showed that the Soviet Union

4165
03:35:51,440 --> 03:35:53,720
Speaker 2: was actually increasing their military assets.

4166
03:35:53,959 --> 03:35:57,359
Speaker 1: So basically what we like what like I mean essentially

4167
03:35:57,400 --> 03:36:00,600
Speaker 1: like what would eventually happen with a RAQ where you're like, look,

4168
03:36:00,680 --> 03:36:04,480
Speaker 1: I'm not liking the uh I'm like the non distilled information,

4169
03:36:04,840 --> 03:36:06,039
Speaker 1: give me a bunch of bullshit.

4170
03:36:06,200 --> 03:36:08,400
Speaker 2: That's exactly what's happening. And one of the things that's

4171
03:36:08,400 --> 03:36:11,680
Speaker 2: fascinating here is that in essence, this is a return

4172
03:36:11,720 --> 03:36:15,560
Speaker 2: of missile gap logic, right, which Kissinger helped get off

4173
03:36:15,680 --> 03:36:19,720
Speaker 2: the ground, but now because he supports the state tent policy,

4174
03:36:19,800 --> 03:36:22,200
Speaker 2: and that's like his big claim to like fame within

4175
03:36:22,560 --> 03:36:24,640
Speaker 2: you know, his career, that he reached the top with

4176
03:36:24,640 --> 03:36:28,080
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union. He's on the opposite side of like

4177
03:36:28,160 --> 03:36:30,879
Speaker 2: a missile gap bullshit myth right, Oh man, this.

4178
03:36:30,959 --> 03:36:34,119
Speaker 1: Is the levers leopards, leopards, ain't my face?

4179
03:36:34,640 --> 03:36:36,720
Speaker 2: Yeah?

4180
03:36:37,000 --> 03:36:39,840
Speaker 1: That every thought could happen to me. Yeah, And then

4181
03:36:39,879 --> 03:36:42,800
Speaker 1: they came for the Kissingers, and there was Kissingers that

4182
03:36:42,959 --> 03:36:43,680
Speaker 1: to speak.

4183
03:36:43,440 --> 03:36:46,360
Speaker 2: For me, it's the same thing as like Dick Cheney

4184
03:36:46,480 --> 03:36:49,520
Speaker 2: speaking out against the Trump administration and why his daughter

4185
03:36:49,560 --> 03:36:50,400
Speaker 2: gets slandered, and.

4186
03:36:51,000 --> 03:36:53,320
Speaker 1: It's and it's what it's gonna be in twenty years,

4187
03:36:53,400 --> 03:36:56,040
Speaker 1: when you know, Trump is welcome to a president's funeral

4188
03:36:56,120 --> 03:36:59,160
Speaker 1: and we're gone. You know, Trump really wasn't that bad.

4189
03:36:59,560 --> 03:37:02,480
Speaker 2: I like away he said we shouldn't nuke everyone on Earth,

4190
03:37:02,480 --> 03:37:05,160
Speaker 2: as opposed to the next guy who nuked everyone on Earth.

4191
03:37:05,360 --> 03:37:08,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, Jill Biden handed him a piece

4192
03:37:08,720 --> 03:37:10,800
Speaker 1: of peppermint candy. He's not that bad.

4193
03:37:12,360 --> 03:37:16,320
Speaker 2: So, Former CIA analyst Melvin Goodwin later said of Team

4194
03:37:16,440 --> 03:37:19,480
Speaker 2: B quote, they wanted to tough en up the agency's estimates.

4195
03:37:19,680 --> 03:37:22,240
Speaker 2: Cheney wanted to drive the CIA so far to the

4196
03:37:22,320 --> 03:37:24,840
Speaker 2: right that it would never say no to the generals.

4197
03:37:25,160 --> 03:37:30,320
Speaker 1: Not how estimates again, this is the estimate, Like they're estimates.

4198
03:37:30,680 --> 03:37:33,560
Speaker 2: Pause this and listen to our episodes on the Dulles Brothers.

4199
03:37:33,800 --> 03:37:36,920
Speaker 2: And then realized that Cheney's like, I want them further

4200
03:37:37,120 --> 03:37:38,280
Speaker 2: right than that.

4201
03:37:38,280 --> 03:37:41,879
Speaker 1: That's not nearly right wing enough. That is the craziest

4202
03:37:41,920 --> 03:37:45,880
Speaker 1: fucking thing yet. Bug fuss. Yeah, wanted a gang bang,

4203
03:37:45,920 --> 03:37:50,640
Speaker 1: being like I want more orifices, not enough holes here.

4204
03:37:50,840 --> 03:37:52,959
Speaker 1: I can't expec my deck and enough stuff.

4205
03:37:53,160 --> 03:37:56,039
Speaker 2: So in December of nineteen seventy six, as the Ford

4206
03:37:56,040 --> 03:37:59,640
Speaker 2: administration pre prepared to hand over power to Jimmy Carter,

4207
03:38:00,040 --> 03:38:02,960
Speaker 2: the CIA finished and released a fifty five page report.

4208
03:38:03,440 --> 03:38:06,360
Speaker 2: Greg Grandon describes this as quote the rights answer to

4209
03:38:06,400 --> 03:38:09,400
Speaker 2: the Pentagon Papers, a nearly perfect negation of the document

4210
03:38:09,480 --> 03:38:12,560
Speaker 2: Daniel Elsberg had leaked three years earlier. The scholars and

4211
03:38:12,600 --> 03:38:15,640
Speaker 2: policymakers who composed the Pentagon Papers represented the kind of

4212
03:38:15,640 --> 03:38:20,160
Speaker 2: men Kissinger disdained, experts enthralled to facts. In contrast, the

4213
03:38:20,240 --> 03:38:24,240
Speaker 2: members of Team B were admitted ideologues. It's members, as J.

4214
03:38:24,440 --> 03:38:28,040
Speaker 2: Peters Scoblic notes, saw the Soviet threat not as an

4215
03:38:28,040 --> 03:38:30,760
Speaker 2: empirical problem, but as a matter of faith.

4216
03:38:31,040 --> 03:38:35,920
Speaker 1: Oh what kind I mean? You just it's a church.

4217
03:38:36,600 --> 03:38:39,879
Speaker 1: It's a war church. It's also what's happening here because

4218
03:38:40,120 --> 03:38:44,240
Speaker 1: they are against Kissinger. But as Grandon notes, they're using

4219
03:38:44,320 --> 03:38:47,400
Speaker 1: the kind of logic he used, right, Yes.

4220
03:38:47,240 --> 03:38:52,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, he's there with him on all of the murder

4221
03:38:53,040 --> 03:38:54,000
Speaker 9: crazy American ship.

4222
03:38:54,000 --> 03:38:55,880
Speaker 1: But they're like, he's just not racist. I mean, they're

4223
03:38:55,879 --> 03:38:57,840
Speaker 1: basically like, we got to get rid of Kissinger so

4224
03:38:57,879 --> 03:38:59,959
Speaker 1: we can worship his tactics properly.

4225
03:39:00,360 --> 03:39:03,400
Speaker 2: That's exactly what's going on here, and in Kissinger's shadow.

4226
03:39:03,520 --> 03:39:07,400
Speaker 2: Grandon continues quote previewing what would become known as Dick

4227
03:39:07,480 --> 03:39:11,240
Speaker 2: Cheney's one percent doctrine. Team B interpreted threats with the

4228
03:39:11,320 --> 03:39:15,520
Speaker 2: smallest posi probability of occurring as likely to occur. Absence

4229
03:39:15,520 --> 03:39:19,359
Speaker 2: of proof of Russian superiority was taken as proof of superiority.

4230
03:39:19,760 --> 03:39:23,360
Speaker 2: Teamb's failure to find a Soviet non acoustic anti submarine

4231
03:39:23,360 --> 03:39:27,080
Speaker 2: system was evidence that there could well be one that someone.

4232
03:39:27,640 --> 03:39:34,840
Speaker 1: Which makes sense, of course, I mean it would be Yeah.

4233
03:39:32,800 --> 03:39:35,360
Speaker 2: There is no evidence that I have e got it,

4234
03:39:35,520 --> 03:39:38,360
Speaker 2: and you know one an Emmy and an Oscar and

4235
03:39:38,400 --> 03:39:41,720
Speaker 2: a grammyator, so that that's pretty solid evidence that I

4236
03:39:41,760 --> 03:39:46,240
Speaker 2: am back. Yeah, you have all of that. Yeah, absolutely so.

4237
03:39:46,440 --> 03:39:49,640
Speaker 2: In December of nineteen seventy seven, The New York Times

4238
03:39:49,640 --> 03:39:52,879
Speaker 2: published a front page story on the intelligence findings of

4239
03:39:52,920 --> 03:39:56,320
Speaker 2: Team B, which provided legitimacy to the bogus s might

4240
03:39:56,440 --> 03:39:58,959
Speaker 2: and ensured the next decade of defense spending was geared

4241
03:39:59,000 --> 03:40:04,480
Speaker 2: towards stopping a zing Soviet titan that did not exist.

4242
03:40:02,959 --> 03:40:07,279
Speaker 1: You God, thanks nailed it on that one. Star Wars

4243
03:40:07,320 --> 03:40:08,320
Speaker 1: on top of that, which.

4244
03:40:08,160 --> 03:40:10,720
Speaker 2: Is well, yeah, Star Wars proceeds directly creation.

4245
03:40:10,920 --> 03:40:12,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and.

4246
03:40:12,120 --> 03:40:15,600
Speaker 2: It proceeds directly like TEMB is laying the groundwork for

4247
03:40:15,640 --> 03:40:16,280
Speaker 2: Star Wars.

4248
03:40:16,360 --> 03:40:16,520
Speaker 1: Right.

4249
03:40:17,480 --> 03:40:21,760
Speaker 2: So, while these tactics ran directly counter to Kissinger's current positions,

4250
03:40:21,800 --> 03:40:25,760
Speaker 2: they rested directly on what Grandon calls his philosophy of history.

4251
03:40:26,400 --> 03:40:28,920
Speaker 2: Henry had been an advocate on the value of intuition

4252
03:40:29,000 --> 03:40:33,240
Speaker 2: and assessing threats and guiding responses. Historian Anna Hessen Khan

4253
03:40:33,320 --> 03:40:37,279
Speaker 2: writes that they used Kissinger's own philosophy to quote, belittle, besmirch,

4254
03:40:37,320 --> 03:40:38,760
Speaker 2: and tarnish Henry Kissinger.

4255
03:40:40,640 --> 03:40:42,560
Speaker 1: Had to be a tough spot for Kissinger, where he

4256
03:40:42,680 --> 03:40:45,160
Speaker 1: was like, it's a shame that I've been vilified, but

4257
03:40:45,879 --> 03:40:50,160
Speaker 1: goddamn do I love the way they did it, so

4258
03:40:50,480 --> 03:40:53,520
Speaker 1: me everything everything.

4259
03:40:53,680 --> 03:40:56,800
Speaker 9: That's that's why when people, you know, you look at

4260
03:40:56,800 --> 03:41:00,560
Speaker 9: the current situation in Russia and and everyone's like, we

4261
03:41:00,640 --> 03:41:02,240
Speaker 9: got to get rid of them, And I'm always like,

4262
03:41:02,320 --> 03:41:05,880
Speaker 9: just but just remember, whenever the US gets what it wants,

4263
03:41:06,040 --> 03:41:10,320
Speaker 9: it's always worse. Yeah, some time that it can be worse,

4264
03:41:10,440 --> 03:41:13,240
Speaker 9: Like he can be gone. He's a fucking monster, but

4265
03:41:13,440 --> 03:41:17,400
Speaker 9: don't be surprised. Yeah it comes after is really fucking bad.

4266
03:41:17,560 --> 03:41:21,280
Speaker 1: And the idea of not questioning shit like we're the

4267
03:41:21,320 --> 03:41:24,520
Speaker 1: country who cried war. At some point you have to

4268
03:41:24,520 --> 03:41:28,959
Speaker 1: be like, look, sorry, everybody, you're really gonna need to

4269
03:41:28,959 --> 03:41:32,120
Speaker 1: step up with a lot of evidence because you you

4270
03:41:32,320 --> 03:41:35,680
Speaker 1: constantly just fucking invention. I mean, if you have if

4271
03:41:35,680 --> 03:41:40,400
Speaker 1: you are forming organizations inside of bullshit, organizations meant to

4272
03:41:40,520 --> 03:41:43,320
Speaker 1: bring like that if there's no submarines, it means there

4273
03:41:43,360 --> 03:41:47,360
Speaker 1: are submarines. I mean, it's just kind of like I

4274
03:41:47,440 --> 03:41:51,240
Speaker 1: and the fact that it's still effective. It's constantly effective.

4275
03:41:51,400 --> 03:41:52,880
Speaker 1: It's never it's never stopped.

4276
03:41:53,800 --> 03:41:56,879
Speaker 9: This is just a continuation, and it's even like this

4277
03:41:56,959 --> 03:42:00,560
Speaker 9: is a domestic version of what we what happens ross,

4278
03:42:01,000 --> 03:42:03,640
Speaker 9: we just create more and more worse things.

4279
03:42:03,879 --> 03:42:06,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, internally, externally it's what we do.

4280
03:42:06,480 --> 03:42:10,200
Speaker 2: Don't worry, We'll make it worse. Yeah, that is, that

4281
03:42:10,360 --> 03:42:13,279
Speaker 2: is the promise that the United States makes itself.

4282
03:42:12,920 --> 03:42:14,920
Speaker 1: In the world. Don't worry, don't worry. We can fuck

4283
03:42:14,959 --> 03:42:18,000
Speaker 1: this up more. Yeah, lifeguard he waits to throw on you.

4284
03:42:18,240 --> 03:42:20,959
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean we fucking created Putin. If you go

4285
03:42:21,000 --> 03:42:22,680
Speaker 9: back and look at it like we were behind all

4286
03:42:22,680 --> 03:42:23,000
Speaker 9: that shit.

4287
03:42:23,080 --> 03:42:25,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's looks looking at the at the bombing of

4288
03:42:25,320 --> 03:42:28,240
Speaker 2: Kiev and going, you know, what'll fix this? If Bangladesh

4289
03:42:28,240 --> 03:42:31,240
Speaker 2: doesn't get COVID nineteen it's.

4290
03:42:31,120 --> 03:42:35,640
Speaker 1: Right, which it's somethin is gonna be what like we

4291
03:42:35,680 --> 03:42:39,039
Speaker 1: will at some point solve something, just totally on accident.

4292
03:42:39,160 --> 03:42:41,520
Speaker 1: Like Yeah.

4293
03:42:41,560 --> 03:42:45,000
Speaker 2: So when he left office in nineteen seventy seven, Henry

4294
03:42:45,040 --> 03:42:49,600
Speaker 2: Kissinger would never return to direct political power. He desperately

4295
03:42:49,640 --> 03:42:52,000
Speaker 2: wants to, really wanted to.

4296
03:42:52,160 --> 03:42:53,920
Speaker 1: Like then he has always wanted to.

4297
03:42:54,200 --> 03:42:57,720
Speaker 13: Yeah, that's nice, man, now I understand twenty sixteen.

4298
03:42:58,080 --> 03:43:01,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really wanted it to happen, but he'd never

4299
03:43:01,400 --> 03:43:04,920
Speaker 2: quite made it pulled it off. He eventually started a

4300
03:43:04,959 --> 03:43:07,400
Speaker 2: consulting firm, which he would rapidly grow into an eight

4301
03:43:07,440 --> 03:43:10,160
Speaker 2: to ten million dollar a year business for himself.

4302
03:43:10,240 --> 03:43:13,480
Speaker 1: Christ, he makes a ton of money doing this shit.

4303
03:43:14,000 --> 03:43:18,160
Speaker 9: Of course, he goes into consulting like, oh, absolute consultant's

4304
03:43:18,280 --> 03:43:21,280
Speaker 9: job is to get the worst advice yea, and to.

4305
03:43:21,280 --> 03:43:23,800
Speaker 1: Make people feel good, and he's great at that. I'm

4306
03:43:23,800 --> 03:43:24,760
Speaker 1: a shit oracle.

4307
03:43:25,120 --> 03:43:30,240
Speaker 2: H Walter Isaacson, author of the biography Kissinger, claims that

4308
03:43:30,320 --> 03:43:33,280
Speaker 2: Henry was actually much more ethical in this period of

4309
03:43:33,280 --> 03:43:36,760
Speaker 2: his life than most former government officials who start consulting businesses.

4310
03:43:38,040 --> 03:43:40,720
Speaker 2: He waited an unusually long time to start his business.

4311
03:43:40,800 --> 03:43:43,480
Speaker 2: He avoided for years directly connecting his clients to people

4312
03:43:43,560 --> 03:43:45,439
Speaker 2: he'd worked with in the State Department.

4313
03:43:45,400 --> 03:43:46,160
Speaker 1: Like a low bar.

4314
03:43:46,680 --> 03:43:49,200
Speaker 2: It may be accurate that he is more ethical in

4315
03:43:49,240 --> 03:43:51,119
Speaker 2: his conduct here than most people, but.

4316
03:43:51,160 --> 03:43:55,560
Speaker 1: Again that's a low ass bar. Yeah. Most of his business, the.

4317
03:43:55,560 --> 03:43:57,240
Speaker 2: Business he does in this period can be boiled down

4318
03:43:57,240 --> 03:44:00,400
Speaker 2: to like, he's helping oil and gas and other extractive industries.

4319
03:44:00,360 --> 03:44:04,000
Speaker 1: So he's like doing nanthropical stuff. Yeah, yeah, so he's

4320
03:44:04,080 --> 03:44:05,199
Speaker 1: just destroying the world.

4321
03:44:05,440 --> 03:44:09,480
Speaker 2: Well yeah, absolutely, he's a middle man for the people

4322
03:44:09,480 --> 03:44:12,240
Speaker 2: destroying the world. Let's let's let's be clear about you know,

4323
03:44:12,320 --> 03:44:15,959
Speaker 2: he's he's he's making he's he's making connections between people whoever.

4324
03:44:16,000 --> 03:44:19,320
Speaker 1: Linda, he's pining to be in charge of it. Again.

4325
03:44:19,360 --> 03:44:24,320
Speaker 2: He is probably his most morally questionable moment in like,

4326
03:44:24,480 --> 03:44:28,200
Speaker 2: I guess a conventional sense is that, uh so, like

4327
03:44:28,440 --> 03:44:31,959
Speaker 2: right after the Tianeman Square crackdown, he shows up on

4328
03:44:32,000 --> 03:44:36,120
Speaker 2: Peter Jenning's show to argue that, like whatever went on,

4329
03:44:36,200 --> 03:44:39,200
Speaker 2: the US should not impost any economic consequences on China.

4330
03:44:39,560 --> 03:44:42,200
Speaker 2: And this is again not due to a principled stand

4331
03:44:42,200 --> 03:44:44,920
Speaker 2: against sanctions. It's because Kissinger was working on a massive

4332
03:44:44,920 --> 03:44:48,000
Speaker 2: business deal that involved the Chinese government in several large corporations.

4333
03:44:49,760 --> 03:44:52,959
Speaker 2: And here's the thing, He's he's working as a journalist

4334
03:44:53,000 --> 03:44:55,720
Speaker 2: at that point. He is a regular columnist for the

4335
03:44:55,879 --> 03:44:59,200
Speaker 2: La Times and the Washington Post, and he advocates in

4336
03:44:59,320 --> 03:45:03,160
Speaker 2: both magaz means not putting any kind of economic like

4337
03:45:03,160 --> 03:45:05,800
Speaker 2: like doing any economic harm to China over this, which

4338
03:45:05,840 --> 03:45:09,680
Speaker 2: is like an ethical issue as a journalist because again

4339
03:45:09,720 --> 03:45:11,879
Speaker 2: he does not disclose that he has any of these

4340
03:45:11,879 --> 03:45:16,600
Speaker 2: business relationships, and it causes a minor uproar. It's one

4341
03:45:16,600 --> 03:45:19,039
Speaker 2: of those things where it's like, yeah, that's unethical behavior.

4342
03:45:19,080 --> 03:45:22,000
Speaker 2: But also in Kissinger terms, like not even on the

4343
03:45:22,040 --> 03:45:23,199
Speaker 2: fucking radar.

4344
03:45:23,040 --> 03:45:25,880
Speaker 1: Right from most people. This is an a boring act.

4345
03:45:25,920 --> 03:45:28,600
Speaker 1: But congratulations on turning over a new leave, Henry.

4346
03:45:28,800 --> 03:45:31,359
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, wow, Henry, you've really improved.

4347
03:45:31,400 --> 03:45:32,440
Speaker 1: You really are less shit.

4348
03:45:32,640 --> 03:45:35,080
Speaker 2: You waited until after the thing to do something bad.

4349
03:45:35,240 --> 03:45:35,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

4350
03:45:35,959 --> 03:45:39,000
Speaker 2: So, in his post power years, he became even more

4351
03:45:39,000 --> 03:45:41,959
Speaker 2: of an international celebrity. He's actually surprised when he's when

4352
03:45:42,000 --> 03:45:44,560
Speaker 2: he starts doing this job, he's raking, racking up huge

4353
03:45:44,560 --> 03:45:47,000
Speaker 2: amounts of money as like a public speaker, and he

4354
03:45:47,080 --> 03:45:49,640
Speaker 2: and his like accountant expect the value of him as

4355
03:45:49,680 --> 03:45:51,840
Speaker 2: a speaking like, well, it's obviously it's going to decline over time,

4356
03:45:53,760 --> 03:45:56,520
Speaker 2: it just gets bigger. He just becomes more of more

4357
03:45:56,640 --> 03:46:01,120
Speaker 2: valuable as a public speaker. Now or some insight into

4358
03:46:01,160 --> 03:46:04,480
Speaker 2: his life in what we might call retirement, I found

4359
03:46:04,480 --> 03:46:07,480
Speaker 2: a New York Magazine article from two thousand and six quote.

4360
03:46:08,120 --> 03:46:11,039
Speaker 2: He bonds with Oprah Winfrey over their shared love of dogs.

4361
03:46:11,160 --> 03:46:14,080
Speaker 2: She recommended an artist to paint a portrait of Kissinger's lap,

4362
03:46:14,320 --> 03:46:17,279
Speaker 2: and with Alex Rodriguez over their shared love of the Yankees.

4363
03:46:17,440 --> 03:46:19,520
Speaker 2: He and a rod had lunch at the Four Seasons.

4364
03:46:19,600 --> 03:46:22,119
Speaker 2: Last year, he and his wife of thirty two years,

4365
03:46:22,200 --> 03:46:25,320
Speaker 2: Nancy McGinnis, spent every Christmas with close friends Oscar and

4366
03:46:25,360 --> 03:46:28,360
Speaker 2: Annette de la Renta in the Dominican Republic. Asked about

4367
03:46:28,360 --> 03:46:31,040
Speaker 2: the nature of that friendship, given the unlikely connection between

4368
03:46:31,040 --> 03:46:34,160
Speaker 2: a former statesman and a fashion mogul, Kissinger says, they

4369
03:46:34,160 --> 03:46:36,800
Speaker 2: are dear friends of mine. They have no utility.

4370
03:46:36,959 --> 03:46:40,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to kill them. Yeah, I will

4371
03:46:40,240 --> 03:46:43,400
Speaker 1: kill them. Plans to kill them soon. Can we just

4372
03:46:43,560 --> 03:46:48,320
Speaker 1: can we finally agree that Oprah Winfrey is a fucking monster? Yeah?

4373
03:46:48,320 --> 03:46:51,800
Speaker 2: I mean right to Oprah buddies with Henry K. Winfrey.

4374
03:46:51,920 --> 03:46:55,640
Speaker 9: Yes, I mean you have to fill Yester Oz like

4375
03:46:55,959 --> 03:46:56,800
Speaker 9: she creates.

4376
03:46:57,680 --> 03:46:59,840
Speaker 1: I'm not going to chick her out ready, doctor ozhit talk,

4377
03:46:59,879 --> 03:47:03,640
Speaker 1: but the other ones you got me. Don't forgett don't

4378
03:47:03,680 --> 03:47:05,000
Speaker 1: forget John of God.

4379
03:47:05,640 --> 03:47:12,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, right under your Suharto tattoo. Gareth doctor Oz high

4380
03:47:12,080 --> 03:47:13,839
Speaker 2: fiving Henry Kissinger.

4381
03:47:13,800 --> 03:47:16,280
Speaker 1: Madam is this before he got his show? So I

4382
03:47:16,360 --> 03:47:21,400
Speaker 1: liked him early. This was just this was just like aspirational,

4383
03:47:21,480 --> 03:47:24,240
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I don't know. It's a great pal.

4384
03:47:24,640 --> 03:47:28,080
Speaker 2: So Kissinger became a New York socialite and was reputed

4385
03:47:28,160 --> 03:47:31,280
Speaker 2: to enjoy the city's social scene because quote, Manhattan social

4386
03:47:31,320 --> 03:47:33,800
Speaker 2: life is more generous than Washington's political life.

4387
03:47:33,840 --> 03:47:37,320
Speaker 1: He should not to pick where he wants to go out.

4388
03:47:37,480 --> 03:47:39,959
Speaker 1: I mean he should have to get food raised to

4389
03:47:40,080 --> 03:47:41,199
Speaker 1: his selling a bucket.

4390
03:47:41,360 --> 03:47:43,120
Speaker 9: It's the same thing as that. What the Cooke was

4391
03:47:43,160 --> 03:47:44,760
Speaker 9: a David Coke, the one that just died, But it

4392
03:47:44,800 --> 03:47:47,320
Speaker 9: was the same thing. Everyone just accepted him in those

4393
03:47:47,360 --> 03:47:49,920
Speaker 9: fucking circles and it's like, yeah, he's a fucking.

4394
03:47:50,040 --> 03:47:52,760
Speaker 1: And then Charles Coke is the one who's like, you know,

4395
03:47:52,959 --> 03:47:57,080
Speaker 1: was like on a rehabilitation tour for like six months. Yeah,

4396
03:47:56,720 --> 03:48:01,240
Speaker 1: and you know, major news outlets are report like, look,

4397
03:48:01,320 --> 03:48:03,320
Speaker 1: he recognizes they fucked up a little. It's like he

4398
03:48:03,360 --> 03:48:06,920
Speaker 1: feels bad. He feels bad. I give a fuck, Yeah,

4399
03:48:07,120 --> 03:48:08,480
Speaker 1: degenitalize him.

4400
03:48:08,680 --> 03:48:12,240
Speaker 2: So it was regularly and I think probably still is

4401
03:48:12,320 --> 03:48:15,440
Speaker 2: regularly seen on the arm of Barbara Walters, who calls

4402
03:48:15,520 --> 03:48:18,800
Speaker 2: him a loyal friend. In fact, she was hanging out

4403
03:48:18,800 --> 03:48:20,600
Speaker 2: with Henry and his wife one night at a dinner

4404
03:48:20,640 --> 03:48:23,760
Speaker 2: party when Kissinger endured one of his few public shamings.

4405
03:48:24,320 --> 03:48:27,600
Speaker 2: It came courtesy as the real the only real hero

4406
03:48:27,760 --> 03:48:32,199
Speaker 2: of these episodes, ABC News anchor Peter Jennings, who sees

4407
03:48:32,280 --> 03:48:36,800
Speaker 2: Kissinger at a restaurant and is fucking enraged and screams out,

4408
03:48:37,160 --> 03:48:39,199
Speaker 2: how does it feel to be a war criminal?

4409
03:48:39,240 --> 03:48:45,840
Speaker 1: Henry Peter Jennings baby, And of course Peter Jennings is gone,

4410
03:48:45,959 --> 03:48:51,359
Speaker 1: So yeah he dies. Yeah, Chrissinger probably like invaded his lungs.

4411
03:48:51,640 --> 03:48:57,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, happened every restaur every to all these people.

4412
03:48:57,760 --> 03:49:02,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jennings is basically the only person at Kissinger's level

4413
03:49:02,560 --> 03:49:03,520
Speaker 2: who calls him out.

4414
03:49:03,600 --> 03:49:06,640
Speaker 1: And imagine, I mean he's He's a nightly news anchor

4415
03:49:06,760 --> 03:49:10,960
Speaker 1: on a major network. Imagine if you had that sort

4416
03:49:11,000 --> 03:49:13,960
Speaker 1: of vitriol pointed at some of these people that we

4417
03:49:14,240 --> 03:49:17,080
Speaker 1: have in present day who are again not only allowed

4418
03:49:17,080 --> 03:49:19,200
Speaker 1: to walk around but are still in sphears of power.

4419
03:49:19,680 --> 03:49:21,920
Speaker 1: But but Dick, like we were saying about Dick Cheney, like,

4420
03:49:22,440 --> 03:49:24,760
Speaker 1: you know, George W. Bush should not he should not

4421
03:49:24,880 --> 03:49:28,040
Speaker 1: be in public. He should not be releasing thoughts on

4422
03:49:28,200 --> 03:49:32,600
Speaker 1: Russian invasion. No, he certainly shouldn't be fucking packing. Yeah,

4423
03:49:32,600 --> 03:49:38,640
Speaker 1: he shouldn't be shouldn't he shouldn't have fingers. No, his

4424
03:49:38,800 --> 03:49:40,920
Speaker 1: daughter should not be on the fucking Today Show. Like,

4425
03:49:41,040 --> 03:49:44,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. I like Strawberry and my Margarita.

4426
03:49:44,160 --> 03:49:46,320
Speaker 2: So I want to continue the story because I'm not

4427
03:49:46,320 --> 03:49:48,840
Speaker 2: telling with the story of Peter Jennings like calling Kissinger

4428
03:49:48,840 --> 03:49:50,840
Speaker 2: out at a restaurant. And to finish that tale, I'm

4429
03:49:50,880 --> 03:49:53,640
Speaker 2: gonna quote from the New York magazine again. The subject

4430
03:49:53,640 --> 03:49:55,720
Speaker 2: of Kissinger's past sins was very much in the air

4431
03:49:55,760 --> 03:49:57,920
Speaker 2: at the time. Judges in both France and Spain were

4432
03:49:57,920 --> 03:50:01,000
Speaker 2: seeking Kissinger for questionings. The long simmering debate over his

4433
03:50:01,000 --> 03:50:04,960
Speaker 2: connection to Chilean General Augusto Pinochet's brutal killing of dissidence

4434
03:50:04,960 --> 03:50:07,360
Speaker 2: in the seventies returned with a vengeance, not least in

4435
03:50:07,440 --> 03:50:10,800
Speaker 2: Christopher Hitchen's right, ringing indictment the trial of Henry Kissinger.

4436
03:50:11,080 --> 03:50:14,160
Speaker 2: These developments clearly rattled Kissinger, who had preemptively written a

4437
03:50:14,240 --> 03:50:18,080
Speaker 2: lengthy article for Foreign Affairs decrying the dangerous legal precedent

4438
03:50:18,080 --> 03:50:21,520
Speaker 2: of using universal jurisdiction to try state actors for past action,

4439
03:50:22,040 --> 03:50:24,600
Speaker 2: the same precedent under which German courts hoped to try

4440
03:50:24,640 --> 03:50:28,240
Speaker 2: Donald Rumsfeld. The question in the question by Peter Jennings,

4441
03:50:28,240 --> 03:50:30,280
Speaker 2: how does it feel to be a war criminal? Stunned

4442
03:50:30,280 --> 03:50:33,840
Speaker 2: the dinner guests, who included Time Inc. Editor Henry Grunwald,

4443
03:50:33,880 --> 03:50:37,720
Speaker 2: who also died last year and Yeah, and former ABC

4444
03:50:37,880 --> 03:50:42,400
Speaker 2: chairman Thomas Murphy. Grunwald told Jennings the comment was unsuitable.

4445
03:50:42,720 --> 03:50:45,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, what unsuitable thing to say.

4446
03:50:45,280 --> 03:50:50,680
Speaker 9: Was as unsuitable as fucking bombing Cambodia. Like Jesus fucking Christ,

4447
03:50:50,880 --> 03:50:53,440
Speaker 9: this is the manners. They care about manners. They don't

4448
03:50:53,440 --> 03:50:54,800
Speaker 9: care about all the fucking bodies.

4449
03:50:55,080 --> 03:50:57,840
Speaker 2: And to his credit, when like Grunwald is like Peter,

4450
03:50:57,960 --> 03:50:59,520
Speaker 2: that's really unsuitable, Peter's.

4451
03:50:59,200 --> 03:50:59,880
Speaker 1: Like, I don't give a shit.

4452
03:51:01,240 --> 03:51:03,520
Speaker 2: You have to say that exactly, Peter, she says the

4453
03:51:03,640 --> 03:51:08,080
Speaker 2: emotional equivalent of that, it's such a bummer. Barbara Walters

4454
03:51:08,160 --> 03:51:10,560
Speaker 2: later said of the moment, I tried to change the subject,

4455
03:51:10,600 --> 03:51:13,440
Speaker 2: but it was a very uncomfortable moment Nett talk about

4456
03:51:14,520 --> 03:51:19,400
Speaker 2: reacted very strongly and hurt Kissinger said, nothing, man.

4457
03:51:19,720 --> 03:51:23,160
Speaker 1: It really is like you know it. You see this

4458
03:51:23,280 --> 03:51:26,880
Speaker 1: a lot when like protesters will go into events and

4459
03:51:27,040 --> 03:51:29,960
Speaker 1: they will you know, they'll have a message, they'll have signs,

4460
03:51:30,000 --> 03:51:34,160
Speaker 1: they'll have something orchestrated set up, and not only will

4461
03:51:34,240 --> 03:51:38,960
Speaker 1: the politician and the people on the politician's dais sort

4462
03:51:39,000 --> 03:51:41,440
Speaker 1: of be like okay, okay, but the people at the

4463
03:51:41,520 --> 03:51:43,360
Speaker 1: event will be the ones who are like, you know,

4464
03:51:43,440 --> 03:51:45,800
Speaker 1: I like a congressional here, this isn't the time or place.

4465
03:51:45,960 --> 03:51:48,520
Speaker 1: This isn't the time. It's like, there's no time or

4466
03:51:48,600 --> 03:51:52,760
Speaker 1: fucking place. Where's the what what do you fucking expect?

4467
03:51:52,760 --> 03:51:55,000
Speaker 1: That's all we have at this point is that's the

4468
03:51:55,040 --> 03:51:57,600
Speaker 1: only thing you can really do is try to make

4469
03:51:57,640 --> 03:52:00,480
Speaker 1: them hate living in the world they're ruining.

4470
03:52:00,680 --> 03:52:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a fucking mark of how fucked up

4471
03:52:04,880 --> 03:52:07,600
Speaker 2: any kind of accountability to the political classes in our

4472
03:52:07,640 --> 03:52:11,640
Speaker 2: society that the most consequence Henry Kissinger ever faces is

4473
03:52:11,680 --> 03:52:13,120
Speaker 2: Peter Jennings yelling at him.

4474
03:52:13,040 --> 03:52:15,520
Speaker 1: Once at dinner, a man who's been dead for twenty years,

4475
03:52:15,640 --> 03:52:18,800
Speaker 1: fifteen years. I mean, when Sarah Huckeby Sanders was out

4476
03:52:18,840 --> 03:52:20,920
Speaker 1: to dinner and some people yelled at her. I mean

4477
03:52:20,960 --> 03:52:23,520
Speaker 1: you saw both sides, Oh yeah, condemning it.

4478
03:52:23,640 --> 03:52:26,520
Speaker 2: Some fucking dudes yell at fucking Tucker Carlson from his

4479
03:52:26,680 --> 03:52:27,920
Speaker 2: lawn terror.

4480
03:52:28,000 --> 03:52:30,640
Speaker 1: There are there are Republicans and Democrats who always condemn

4481
03:52:30,760 --> 03:52:33,080
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. And it's not because people believe

4482
03:52:33,120 --> 03:52:35,960
Speaker 1: in public decorum. It's because they don't want it to

4483
03:52:36,000 --> 03:52:38,320
Speaker 1: show up on their fucking doorsteps, right.

4484
03:52:38,360 --> 03:52:40,440
Speaker 2: Right, because yeah, they don't want like that shit to

4485
03:52:40,480 --> 03:52:43,200
Speaker 2: come back on them. Yes, I'm sure if someone's going

4486
03:52:43,240 --> 03:52:45,240
Speaker 2: to point out Peter Jennings did something fucked up, he

4487
03:52:45,320 --> 03:52:48,680
Speaker 2: must have. He was immediately even he oh right, he

4488
03:52:48,720 --> 03:52:50,520
Speaker 2: did nine to eleven. That was Peter Jennings. He threw

4489
03:52:50,560 --> 03:52:53,560
Speaker 2: those planes right into those towers. I'd forgotten about that, Gary.

4490
03:52:53,520 --> 03:53:00,880
Speaker 11: Yeah, but at fucking least he was there and didn't

4491
03:53:00,920 --> 03:53:03,680
Speaker 11: mince words, just like you're a war criminal, not.

4492
03:53:03,600 --> 03:53:05,760
Speaker 2: Like how does it feel to be here where American

4493
03:53:05,800 --> 03:53:08,040
Speaker 2: boys are dying? But like, no, no, you did war crimes,

4494
03:53:08,080 --> 03:53:12,640
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger, Fuck you, someone has to say it. In

4495
03:53:12,680 --> 03:53:16,160
Speaker 2: his many decades worth of declining years, Henry has focused

4496
03:53:16,200 --> 03:53:18,840
Speaker 2: his remaining powers in an attempt to secure his legacy.

4497
03:53:19,120 --> 03:53:21,080
Speaker 2: In two thousand and three, he opened up his White

4498
03:53:21,080 --> 03:53:24,480
Speaker 2: House archives to a British historian named Niall Ferguson, whose

4499
03:53:24,520 --> 03:53:27,640
Speaker 2: book also just titled Kissinger. I've cited a few times

4500
03:53:27,680 --> 03:53:31,200
Speaker 2: in these episodes. Ferguson claimed his biography would quote provide

4501
03:53:31,240 --> 03:53:33,600
Speaker 2: a warts and all look at the man, but quotes

4502
03:53:33,600 --> 03:53:35,680
Speaker 2: he made about the relationship put the light of that.

4503
03:53:35,760 --> 03:53:38,000
Speaker 2: And this is Ferguson like writing about how jazzed he

4504
03:53:38,080 --> 03:53:40,040
Speaker 2: is to be hanging out with Henry. I'm in Henry

4505
03:53:40,120 --> 03:53:43,000
Speaker 2: Kissinger's swimming pool talking about his meetings with MAUSEI dung,

4506
03:53:43,120 --> 03:53:47,720
Speaker 2: thinking I must be dreaming shit in that pool. I know,

4507
03:53:48,240 --> 03:53:53,120
Speaker 2: fucking hell Nile everyone. Now, obviously I have quoted from

4508
03:53:53,120 --> 03:53:57,040
Speaker 2: this biography because of the details the information Kissinger provides

4509
03:53:57,040 --> 03:53:59,320
Speaker 2: about his early life, it is not without value. It's

4510
03:53:59,360 --> 03:54:01,680
Speaker 2: probably the most tailed look at his childhood we have.

4511
03:54:02,360 --> 03:54:04,520
Speaker 2: It also only goes up to nineteen sixty eight, which

4512
03:54:04,600 --> 03:54:07,800
Speaker 2: neatly avoids the most controversial moments of Kissinger's life.

4513
03:54:07,920 --> 03:54:13,320
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, that's not great, even journal Yeah, and now

4514
03:54:13,360 --> 03:54:14,480
Speaker 1: we end the story.

4515
03:54:14,600 --> 03:54:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was the end of Henry Kissinger.

4516
03:54:17,840 --> 03:54:19,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, blah blah blah.

4517
03:54:19,280 --> 03:54:23,960
Speaker 2: Even when journalists and historians that Henry hasn't authorized specifically

4518
03:54:24,320 --> 03:54:27,480
Speaker 2: interview him, they are likely to find themselves enraptured or

4519
03:54:27,480 --> 03:54:30,640
Speaker 2: at least tripped up by his clever wordplay. Bob Woodward,

4520
03:54:30,640 --> 03:54:33,880
Speaker 2: who first interviewed Kissinger in seventy four, wrote, he wants

4521
03:54:33,960 --> 03:54:36,760
Speaker 2: to control not just what he says, but people's perceptions

4522
03:54:36,800 --> 03:54:38,600
Speaker 2: of what he says. And it's kind of like one

4523
03:54:38,640 --> 03:54:41,000
Speaker 2: long book review where he is arguing with the reviewer

4524
03:54:41,040 --> 03:54:44,320
Speaker 2: of his book, or his life or his policy. Seymour

4525
03:54:44,400 --> 03:54:47,120
Speaker 2: Hirsch was more blunt in nineteen eighty three when he wrote,

4526
03:54:47,200 --> 03:54:49,240
Speaker 2: he lies like most people breathe.

4527
03:54:49,520 --> 03:54:51,600
Speaker 1: Wow. Now, oh yeah.

4528
03:54:51,640 --> 03:54:55,080
Speaker 2: The most comprehensive biography of Henry Kissinger And if you

4529
03:54:55,080 --> 03:54:56,960
Speaker 2: were looking, If you're looking for just a book on

4530
03:54:57,280 --> 03:55:00,240
Speaker 2: Kissinger's influence in Like the US and how toxic it was,

4531
03:55:00,280 --> 03:55:03,040
Speaker 2: I recommend Kissinger's Shadow by Grandon. If you want an

4532
03:55:03,080 --> 03:55:06,040
Speaker 2: actual biography of Kissinger's whole life and time and power,

4533
03:55:06,360 --> 03:55:10,000
Speaker 2: I recommend Walter Isaacson's nineteen ninety two book Kissinger. I

4534
03:55:10,040 --> 03:55:13,200
Speaker 2: actually think Isaacson is too fair to Henry Kissinger.

4535
03:55:13,480 --> 03:55:15,360
Speaker 1: But even so, even though he.

4536
03:55:15,400 --> 03:55:18,920
Speaker 2: Clearly like does not wholly condemn the man, I find

4537
03:55:18,960 --> 03:55:22,720
Speaker 2: the book utterly damning. Right like, the book condemns him,

4538
03:55:22,720 --> 03:55:26,880
Speaker 2: even if Isaacson doesn't entirely try such a piece of shaite.

4539
03:55:27,120 --> 03:55:30,400
Speaker 2: It's just impossible. Not if you're accurate, and I think

4540
03:55:30,120 --> 03:55:31,120
Speaker 2: is pretty active.

4541
03:55:31,200 --> 03:55:33,640
Speaker 1: You lay out the facts, that's it. Yeah.

4542
03:55:33,720 --> 03:55:37,800
Speaker 2: Now, the best thing I can say about Isaacson's book, Kissinger,

4543
03:55:38,160 --> 03:55:41,760
Speaker 2: is that Henry Kissinger himself complained endlessly about it. He

4544
03:55:41,840 --> 03:55:46,000
Speaker 2: wind to Isaacson's boss, Henry Grunwald, who defended Isaacson and

4545
03:55:46,080 --> 03:55:48,520
Speaker 2: said he felt the book was balanced and down the middle.

4546
03:55:48,760 --> 03:55:51,840
Speaker 2: Kissinger responded, what right does that young man have to

4547
03:55:51,880 --> 03:55:53,720
Speaker 2: be balanced and down the middle about me?

4548
03:55:54,360 --> 03:56:01,800
Speaker 1: Ugh? I mean, wow, wow, it just shows I mean, yeah,

4549
03:56:01,840 --> 03:56:04,600
Speaker 1: like he should never be in the position where he

4550
03:56:04,640 --> 03:56:06,880
Speaker 1: should be pointing out that other people are crazy.

4551
03:56:07,080 --> 03:56:10,400
Speaker 2: No, no, fucking like you don't get to say that, Henry.

4552
03:56:10,520 --> 03:56:11,200
Speaker 1: Yeah no.

4553
03:56:11,880 --> 03:56:16,560
Speaker 2: As New York Magazine notes, Kissinger denies that exchange ever happened.

4554
03:56:17,120 --> 03:56:19,480
Speaker 1: Oh I believe Henry. I mean, the guy doesn't lie.

4555
03:56:19,640 --> 03:56:22,280
Speaker 1: He seems like an honest man. I bet Nixon still

4556
03:56:22,280 --> 03:56:23,120
Speaker 1: had him wire tapped.

4557
03:56:23,240 --> 03:56:25,600
Speaker 2: And here's a quote from that article that's very funny.

4558
03:56:26,360 --> 03:56:29,640
Speaker 2: I've never read the Isaacson book, he says, then quickly clarifies,

4559
03:56:29,760 --> 03:56:31,880
Speaker 2: I've read a few parts of the Isaacson book, which

4560
03:56:31,880 --> 03:56:34,520
Speaker 2: I didn't like, but I understand that there are many

4561
03:56:34,520 --> 03:56:37,240
Speaker 2: parts of the book that are very positive. I missed those,

4562
03:56:37,360 --> 03:56:38,880
Speaker 2: he says, with a sly smile.

4563
03:56:39,280 --> 03:56:42,920
Speaker 1: That is so. That is so trumpy. I know it

4564
03:56:43,000 --> 03:56:46,880
Speaker 1: really is right. Yeah, I didn't read it. I read

4565
03:56:46,920 --> 03:56:48,120
Speaker 1: parts one through five.

4566
03:56:49,360 --> 03:56:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Isaacson says Kissinger wrote him a series of letters

4567
03:56:54,040 --> 03:56:57,800
Speaker 2: contesting numerous passages. My view, and this is Isaacson. My

4568
03:56:57,880 --> 03:57:00,360
Speaker 2: view is that if Kissinger reread his own memoir, who

4569
03:57:00,400 --> 03:57:03,280
Speaker 2: would be outraged that they did not treat him favorably enough?

4570
03:57:03,960 --> 03:57:09,360
Speaker 1: Kissing who wrote this? You did? Oh? Oh the fuck?

4571
03:57:09,920 --> 03:57:11,840
Speaker 1: That's son of a bitch. I gotta get me.

4572
03:57:13,360 --> 03:57:16,520
Speaker 2: Kissinger claims to be unconcerned about his place and history.

4573
03:57:16,680 --> 03:57:19,640
Speaker 2: I cannot defect my legacy, he says. And what does

4574
03:57:19,640 --> 03:57:22,400
Speaker 2: he think his legacy is. I have no view, he says.

4575
03:57:22,480 --> 03:57:25,280
Speaker 2: I can't control it by what I say. I tell him,

4576
03:57:25,320 --> 03:57:27,800
Speaker 2: I don't believe him. You're not in your eighties yet,

4577
03:57:27,840 --> 03:57:32,640
Speaker 2: he replies. Now a lot has been made about Kissinger's

4578
03:57:32,640 --> 03:57:34,920
Speaker 2: purported role in like the Invasion of Iraq. He did,

4579
03:57:34,920 --> 03:57:37,560
Speaker 2: apparently like urge Bush and Cheney to go through with it.

4580
03:57:37,880 --> 03:57:40,920
Speaker 2: I think crediting him with specifically with having an impact

4581
03:57:41,000 --> 03:57:44,200
Speaker 2: on that is not realistic because this is Bush and Cheney.

4582
03:57:44,200 --> 03:57:46,240
Speaker 2: By the time they talked to Kissinger about this, they

4583
03:57:46,240 --> 03:57:48,160
Speaker 2: had made up their fuck you know, it's probably didn't

4584
03:57:48,240 --> 03:57:50,000
Speaker 2: push them into invading Iraqs.

4585
03:57:50,040 --> 03:57:52,360
Speaker 1: It's like similar when like the Queens of the Stone

4586
03:57:52,360 --> 03:57:55,600
Speaker 1: Age have Dave Grohl on drums. Yeah, yeah, exactly. He's

4587
03:57:55,600 --> 03:57:58,080
Speaker 1: a player for sure, but he's not writing all the songs.

4588
03:57:58,120 --> 03:58:00,440
Speaker 1: I mean, Josh, yeah, he's got this. Kissinger's definitely the

4589
03:58:00,920 --> 03:58:05,520
Speaker 1: Dave Groll of the the Bush administration. Yeah right, great job.

4590
03:58:06,120 --> 03:58:09,480
Speaker 2: And I think that rather than like actually being a

4591
03:58:09,520 --> 03:58:12,320
Speaker 2: meaningful role in arranging consent for the invasion of Iraq,

4592
03:58:12,320 --> 03:58:14,320
Speaker 2: I think Kissinger was doing here what he always did.

4593
03:58:14,360 --> 03:58:16,520
Speaker 2: He was sucking up to powerful people to tell them

4594
03:58:16,600 --> 03:58:18,640
Speaker 2: by telling them what they wanted to hear. And the

4595
03:58:18,680 --> 03:58:21,320
Speaker 2: best example of this comes from two thousand and eight, when,

4596
03:58:21,400 --> 03:58:24,840
Speaker 2: during a presidential debate, both John McCain and Barack Obama

4597
03:58:24,920 --> 03:58:28,920
Speaker 2: cited Kissinger as supporting their positions towards Iran. Both men

4598
03:58:29,000 --> 03:58:31,440
Speaker 2: held opposite views of what the US should do in

4599
03:58:31,480 --> 03:58:35,760
Speaker 2: regards to that country. So I might like, you might

4600
03:58:35,840 --> 03:58:38,160
Speaker 2: expect like, and I don't think either of them is lying.

4601
03:58:38,160 --> 03:58:40,040
Speaker 2: I think they're both because I think Kissinger just would

4602
03:58:40,080 --> 03:58:41,480
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, of course that's the right call.

4603
03:58:41,680 --> 03:58:44,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yeah, Look what the start date to be, just

4604
03:58:44,600 --> 03:58:45,760
Speaker 1: so I can put it in my cale.

4605
03:58:46,160 --> 03:58:50,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, good call, guys, that's great.

4606
03:58:51,200 --> 03:58:56,480
Speaker 1: We should invade them and leave them alone. Yeah. So yeah.

4607
03:58:56,720 --> 03:58:59,240
Speaker 2: As a young law student at Yale, Hillary Clinton had

4608
03:58:59,280 --> 03:59:03,120
Speaker 2: taken part in outraged protests against Kissinger's bombing of Cambodia.

4609
03:59:03,200 --> 03:59:06,400
Speaker 2: As Secretary of State, she praised the astute observations he

4610
03:59:06,480 --> 03:59:08,560
Speaker 2: shared with her, and wrote in a review of one

4611
03:59:08,560 --> 03:59:11,640
Speaker 2: of his books, Kissinger is a friend. And again the

4612
03:59:11,680 --> 03:59:14,800
Speaker 2: astute observations are Kissinger saying whatever she wanted to do

4613
03:59:14,920 --> 03:59:17,520
Speaker 2: was the right thing to do, right, Like, that's that's what.

4614
03:59:17,720 --> 03:59:20,480
Speaker 2: That's why these people like him and think he's astute.

4615
03:59:20,480 --> 03:59:20,760
Speaker 1: He's not.

4616
03:59:21,160 --> 03:59:23,440
Speaker 2: I think he does today get kind of like looked

4617
03:59:23,440 --> 03:59:25,440
Speaker 2: at as this secret power pulling the strings.

4618
03:59:25,920 --> 03:59:28,160
Speaker 1: I think instead he's just like the ultimate kiss ass.

4619
03:59:28,200 --> 03:59:30,520
Speaker 2: He's just like, oh, you're in power now, Yeah, whatever

4620
03:59:30,560 --> 03:59:32,040
Speaker 2: you want to do is the good thing to do,

4621
03:59:32,120 --> 03:59:33,280
Speaker 2: absolutely right, you know.

4622
03:59:34,160 --> 03:59:35,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent.

4623
03:59:35,960 --> 03:59:39,280
Speaker 9: I always I would tell people like, if you're if

4624
03:59:39,320 --> 03:59:41,680
Speaker 9: you're young and you don't understand what it means to

4625
03:59:41,720 --> 03:59:45,440
Speaker 9: see a Hillar Clinton standing there with Kissinger. It's no

4626
03:59:45,520 --> 03:59:49,120
Speaker 9: different than in ten years of all of sudden your

4627
03:59:49,400 --> 03:59:53,040
Speaker 9: Democrat candidate's standings to Cheney. Yeah, you're like, what the fuck.

4628
03:59:52,840 --> 03:59:55,040
Speaker 1: Is going on? And I guarantee you that lost her.

4629
03:59:55,160 --> 03:59:56,600
Speaker 9: A bunch of people didn't vote for her because they

4630
03:59:56,600 --> 03:59:58,280
Speaker 9: saw her staying next to Kissinger.

4631
03:59:58,440 --> 04:00:01,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guarantee you. Yeah.

4632
04:00:01,200 --> 04:00:04,440
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think though, when you're trying to talk

4633
04:00:04,480 --> 04:00:07,400
Speaker 2: about like his actual influence and like the fucked up

4634
04:00:07,400 --> 04:00:09,360
Speaker 2: things that have been happening in the last couple of decades,

4635
04:00:09,680 --> 04:00:12,520
Speaker 2: it's less in whatever advice he was giving politician airb

4636
04:00:12,600 --> 04:00:14,440
Speaker 2: And it's more in the way he shaped the way

4637
04:00:14,600 --> 04:00:18,480
Speaker 2: the US government functions. In terms of foreign policy. He

4638
04:00:18,680 --> 04:00:23,040
Speaker 2: centralized power and set the precedent of allowing the executive

4639
04:00:23,040 --> 04:00:26,240
Speaker 2: branch to execute military actions without consent of anyone outside

4640
04:00:26,280 --> 04:00:28,400
Speaker 2: the White House. And obviously there were like things that

4641
04:00:28,440 --> 04:00:30,760
Speaker 2: were done to restrict the power of the executive branch

4642
04:00:30,760 --> 04:00:33,040
Speaker 2: from doing that, but then those things were all undone

4643
04:00:33,080 --> 04:00:35,360
Speaker 2: after the like right, like this it's this kind of.

4644
04:00:35,280 --> 04:00:36,040
Speaker 1: Tuggo war thing.

4645
04:00:36,960 --> 04:00:40,120
Speaker 2: But Kissinger, even though he did not set obviously the

4646
04:00:40,160 --> 04:00:43,400
Speaker 2: policy after nine to eleven that that expanded the executive

4647
04:00:43,440 --> 04:00:47,280
Speaker 2: government's ability to do military shit abroad. He did set

4648
04:00:47,320 --> 04:00:50,600
Speaker 2: the present of like how you would actually centralize power

4649
04:00:50,680 --> 04:00:53,120
Speaker 2: in that way within the executive and he made up

4650
04:00:53,360 --> 04:00:57,320
Speaker 2: he set a lot of ideological and philosophical trends that

4651
04:00:57,400 --> 04:00:59,880
Speaker 2: are still shaping the way the US government functions and

4652
04:01:00,000 --> 04:01:03,840
Speaker 2: regards to foreign policy today. Sure, and if you're looking

4653
04:01:03,880 --> 04:01:06,880
Speaker 2: for perhaps the most direct and succinct explanation for how

4654
04:01:06,960 --> 04:01:10,440
Speaker 2: Kissinger influenced the world of modern American politics, you can

4655
04:01:10,440 --> 04:01:13,280
Speaker 2: find it in this quote he himself wrote in nineteen

4656
04:01:13,360 --> 04:01:16,280
Speaker 2: sixty three. There are two kinds of realists, those who

4657
04:01:16,360 --> 04:01:19,960
Speaker 2: manipulate facts and those who create them. The West requires

4658
04:01:20,000 --> 04:01:23,160
Speaker 2: nothing so much as men able to create their own reality.

4659
04:01:23,440 --> 04:01:28,680
Speaker 1: Wow wow, what fuck wow to not to not be

4660
04:01:28,760 --> 04:01:31,840
Speaker 1: able to define realists and your two definite your two

4661
04:01:31,880 --> 04:01:34,800
Speaker 1: tier definition of realism is absolutely deliciable.

4662
04:01:35,080 --> 04:01:38,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, for neither of your definitions of realists to involve

4663
04:01:38,560 --> 04:01:39,360
Speaker 2: people who care.

4664
04:01:39,280 --> 04:01:42,120
Speaker 1: About material reality. Yeah, you're saying the first one, I

4665
04:01:42,120 --> 04:01:43,840
Speaker 1: was like, oh, and the second one's going to be realists.

4666
04:01:43,840 --> 04:01:48,040
Speaker 1: It's like no, no, no, no, no, either one is realists. No,

4667
04:01:49,240 --> 04:01:53,320
Speaker 1: So that's Henry Kissinger it's so unbelievable and to what

4668
04:01:53,680 --> 04:01:59,120
Speaker 1: like you know, he really he his legacy, like you're

4669
04:01:59,160 --> 04:02:02,760
Speaker 1: sort of saying, is not just directly connected to the

4670
04:02:02,760 --> 04:02:08,680
Speaker 1: things he's connected to, because there was no prosecution for

4671
04:02:08,760 --> 04:02:12,000
Speaker 1: what Nixon did, no, and there's no prosecution for what

4672
04:02:12,040 --> 04:02:16,400
Speaker 1: Reagan did, and there's no prosecution because we never prosecute

4673
04:02:16,480 --> 04:02:19,680
Speaker 1: and we never actually hold any of these people accountable.

4674
04:02:20,600 --> 04:02:25,240
Speaker 1: You know, you do see the seeds of that flourish now,

4675
04:02:25,440 --> 04:02:28,560
Speaker 1: like you can invade. I mean, we're at the point

4676
04:02:28,600 --> 04:02:33,040
Speaker 1: where most people don't even know we've invaded countries we've invaded,

4677
04:02:33,520 --> 04:02:38,600
Speaker 1: Like at least with Vietnam, people had access to seeing

4678
04:02:38,640 --> 04:02:42,000
Speaker 1: it and being disgusted by it. And then under Bush

4679
04:02:42,000 --> 04:02:43,360
Speaker 1: it was like, well, we're not going to show the

4680
04:02:43,400 --> 04:02:46,800
Speaker 1: coffins returning. And you see, I mean it's not just Republicans.

4681
04:02:46,840 --> 04:02:49,040
Speaker 1: You see it under democratic presidents too. It just is

4682
04:02:49,120 --> 04:02:51,800
Speaker 1: kind of more egregious at times under Republican presidents. But

4683
04:02:52,600 --> 04:02:56,480
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's every president gets more powerful, does more,

4684
04:02:57,120 --> 04:03:00,960
Speaker 1: and it does kind of boil down to they're going

4685
04:03:01,040 --> 04:03:07,280
Speaker 1: to be evil journalists and media need to recognize what

4686
04:03:07,320 --> 04:03:10,520
Speaker 1: their fucking jobs are. If you're in some of these jobs,

4687
04:03:10,560 --> 04:03:13,880
Speaker 1: like it's it should not be a popularity contest for

4688
04:03:14,040 --> 04:03:17,760
Speaker 1: access only. There should be you should be beholden to

4689
04:03:18,760 --> 04:03:24,440
Speaker 1: doing good and making these people held accountable. Because it's

4690
04:03:24,520 --> 04:03:28,560
Speaker 1: so relevant in what you're talking about with Kissinger that

4691
04:03:28,720 --> 04:03:32,760
Speaker 1: they just let the access to him because he became

4692
04:03:32,800 --> 04:03:36,480
Speaker 1: a popular figure, completely blind them as to what was

4693
04:03:36,520 --> 04:03:37,320
Speaker 1: actually going on.

4694
04:03:37,440 --> 04:03:40,320
Speaker 9: Well, it's actually worse than not punishing them. Remember when

4695
04:03:40,640 --> 04:03:44,720
Speaker 9: when Obama was elected, everyone was like, these guys have

4696
04:03:44,800 --> 04:03:45,040
Speaker 9: to be.

4697
04:03:45,040 --> 04:03:46,120
Speaker 1: Tried for war crimes.

4698
04:03:46,200 --> 04:03:49,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, and he said, we got to move on, and

4699
04:03:49,560 --> 04:03:51,560
Speaker 9: you know that we're talking about torture and war crimes

4700
04:03:51,600 --> 04:03:54,760
Speaker 9: and everything else. But it went, it went further than

4701
04:03:54,800 --> 04:03:59,000
Speaker 9: that because they gave Bush like the Medal of Freedom.

4702
04:03:59,080 --> 04:04:02,160
Speaker 9: I mean there's a picture of fucking Biden hanging on

4703
04:04:02,200 --> 04:04:02,720
Speaker 9: his chest.

4704
04:04:03,080 --> 04:04:07,640
Speaker 1: And they also they also honored this guy named Henry Kissinger.

4705
04:04:09,560 --> 04:04:14,200
Speaker 9: They did honored him. So it's beyond not doing anything.

4706
04:04:14,520 --> 04:04:17,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's just it's not even just him, I mean,

4707
04:04:18,000 --> 04:04:21,840
Speaker 1: it's just it's systemic. It's just and you know what,

4708
04:04:21,920 --> 04:04:23,640
Speaker 1: if you are if you are one of these people,

4709
04:04:23,640 --> 04:04:25,960
Speaker 1: if you are a fucking anchor at CNN, like if

4710
04:04:25,960 --> 04:04:29,440
Speaker 1: you're Jim Acosta. Think of how fucking popular you would

4711
04:04:29,480 --> 04:04:32,680
Speaker 1: be if you did just start using your access to

4712
04:04:33,040 --> 04:04:38,440
Speaker 1: just be like Peter Jennings, Like here we are craving

4713
04:04:38,520 --> 04:04:42,000
Speaker 1: this fucking figure. But they would be immediately fired. I mean,

4714
04:04:42,160 --> 04:04:45,080
Speaker 1: but he would never talk, but they would be. But

4715
04:04:45,160 --> 04:04:48,680
Speaker 1: you would also, I mean, having even a moment of

4716
04:04:48,720 --> 04:04:52,680
Speaker 1: that would carry your career. Like if we had that

4717
04:04:52,880 --> 04:04:57,400
Speaker 1: Peter Jennings shit now, it would go so viral and

4718
04:04:57,480 --> 04:05:01,320
Speaker 1: people would talk about that person endlessly that I mean.

4719
04:05:01,360 --> 04:05:06,520
Speaker 1: It's like it's like when you know, when billionaires started

4720
04:05:06,520 --> 04:05:12,200
Speaker 1: competing over being philanthropists. You know, you at some point

4721
04:05:12,800 --> 04:05:15,760
Speaker 1: you're so far in the other direction that you're not

4722
04:05:16,000 --> 04:05:19,400
Speaker 1: that far off from just doing the thing that you're

4723
04:05:19,440 --> 04:05:22,760
Speaker 1: supposed to do. Is going to be such a radical move.

4724
04:05:23,040 --> 04:05:24,680
Speaker 1: It's this it's very frustrating.

4725
04:05:24,800 --> 04:05:27,400
Speaker 2: Like right now you have all of these big media

4726
04:05:27,440 --> 04:05:30,840
Speaker 2: figures like moving their shows to Ukraine to be able

4727
04:05:30,880 --> 04:05:34,000
Speaker 2: to film shelling in the distance. Like obviously, to be

4728
04:05:34,080 --> 04:05:37,320
Speaker 2: a journalist covering combat up close, covering war crimes up

4729
04:05:37,320 --> 04:05:40,200
Speaker 2: close requires a lot of physical courage. Those like Sky

4730
04:05:40,280 --> 04:05:43,000
Speaker 2: News reporters who got fucking shot and shit, the Daily

4731
04:05:43,040 --> 04:05:46,360
Speaker 2: Beast reporters got fucking shot that. But like being like

4732
04:05:46,480 --> 04:05:49,920
Speaker 2: less your holt, like having your show filmed with like

4733
04:05:50,000 --> 04:05:53,800
Speaker 2: shelling in the distance. They have massive security teams, they

4734
04:05:53,840 --> 04:05:56,760
Speaker 2: have massive resources invested into making sure they are in

4735
04:05:57,000 --> 04:06:00,240
Speaker 2: as little danger as they can possibly be, and more

4736
04:06:00,280 --> 04:06:02,600
Speaker 2: than anything, they are out there in doing it for

4737
04:06:02,680 --> 04:06:05,760
Speaker 2: the fucking clout. Because that is easy to like, feels

4738
04:06:05,800 --> 04:06:10,120
Speaker 2: like I'm brave. What's actually brave is Peter Jennings yelling

4739
04:06:10,160 --> 04:06:12,480
Speaker 2: at Henry Kissinger at a fucking dinner party full of

4740
04:06:12,520 --> 04:06:14,960
Speaker 2: powerful people and making sure that for just a second

4741
04:06:15,160 --> 04:06:17,480
Speaker 2: he has a moment of accountability. And if one of

4742
04:06:17,520 --> 04:06:19,200
Speaker 2: them was willing to do fucking that to any of

4743
04:06:19,240 --> 04:06:20,840
Speaker 2: these goals, I would have a lot more respect than

4744
04:06:20,880 --> 04:06:22,880
Speaker 2: I would have them filming shelling in Key from a

4745
04:06:22,920 --> 04:06:24,040
Speaker 2: mile and a half away.

4746
04:06:24,360 --> 04:06:29,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, look, there was Wolf Blitzer who during the First

4747
04:06:29,720 --> 04:06:33,200
Speaker 9: Gulf War put on a helmet and was in Saudi

4748
04:06:33,200 --> 04:06:37,400
Speaker 9: Arabia where scud missles were flying and saying how in

4749
04:06:37,520 --> 04:06:39,840
Speaker 9: danger he was. At the same time, there were journalists,

4750
04:06:39,880 --> 04:06:43,680
Speaker 9: American journalists in the fucking bag that hotel being being

4751
04:06:43,840 --> 04:06:48,440
Speaker 9: shot at and rocketed by American troops, and those guys

4752
04:06:48,440 --> 04:06:52,120
Speaker 9: didn't work anymore, and wolf Blitzer got his own TV

4753
04:06:52,160 --> 04:06:53,200
Speaker 9: show on CNN.

4754
04:06:53,160 --> 04:06:55,040
Speaker 1: Or Brian Williams when he talked to when he was

4755
04:06:55,160 --> 04:06:58,840
Speaker 1: like the way that he embellish his story about like

4756
04:06:58,960 --> 04:07:08,400
Speaker 1: getting off of a helicopter and taking RPG fire, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

4757
04:07:06,760 --> 04:07:09,080
Speaker 2: I mean I don't know we could use another Jennings

4758
04:07:09,160 --> 04:07:10,520
Speaker 2: or too, at least in this regard.

4759
04:07:10,640 --> 04:07:12,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's it's hard because it's like, what

4760
04:07:12,560 --> 04:07:14,960
Speaker 1: would you I mean what would like You're like, we want,

4761
04:07:15,000 --> 04:07:17,880
Speaker 1: like we want a politician for the people, and it's like,

4762
04:07:18,400 --> 04:07:21,240
Speaker 1: I like that's like that's what you wish for, but

4763
04:07:21,280 --> 04:07:24,360
Speaker 1: you're like, the step first is to just have these

4764
04:07:24,400 --> 04:07:27,480
Speaker 1: people vilified for the things they should be vilified for.

4765
04:07:28,040 --> 04:07:31,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be nice if there was a journalist.

4766
04:07:32,520 --> 04:07:35,240
Speaker 2: That's the end of the stay.

4767
04:07:38,040 --> 04:07:43,840
Speaker 1: Well, honestly, like this was, I mean just fucking incredible

4768
04:07:43,960 --> 04:07:49,200
Speaker 1: and just such a ridiculous He's a pretty bad one, right,

4769
04:07:49,360 --> 04:07:51,440
Speaker 1: I don't think I don't think there's a worse America.

4770
04:07:52,080 --> 04:07:54,720
Speaker 1: The worst he is. He. I know that there was

4771
04:07:54,800 --> 04:07:58,880
Speaker 1: talk of like into the countries, of like trying him

4772
04:07:58,920 --> 04:08:02,040
Speaker 1: outside of you know, not having him there. Yeah.

4773
04:08:02,120 --> 04:08:07,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, but can he travel anywhere he wants or is restricted?

4774
04:08:07,080 --> 04:08:07,440
Speaker 1: He can't.

4775
04:08:07,480 --> 04:08:09,320
Speaker 2: I'm not aware of. I mean there may be like

4776
04:08:09,400 --> 04:08:09,880
Speaker 2: one place.

4777
04:08:10,080 --> 04:08:13,360
Speaker 1: He also now like he's become like this watery figure.

4778
04:08:13,440 --> 04:08:15,400
Speaker 1: So he's kind of like the T one thousand where

4779
04:08:15,400 --> 04:08:17,080
Speaker 1: if you just get close to him, he turns into

4780
04:08:17,120 --> 04:08:20,200
Speaker 1: silver goo and just can go through a drain or something. Yeah,

4781
04:08:20,240 --> 04:08:22,920
Speaker 1: you can't put a handcuff around a pile of watery goo.

4782
04:08:23,240 --> 04:08:25,000
Speaker 2: I mean he's he is a big part. Like he

4783
04:08:25,440 --> 04:08:28,840
Speaker 2: argues vociferously for why like Rumpsfeld shouldn't be able to

4784
04:08:28,840 --> 04:08:31,760
Speaker 2: be charged and I think Germany it is and he's

4785
04:08:31,800 --> 04:08:34,640
Speaker 2: doing it like selfishly again then shock, then it would

4786
04:08:34,640 --> 04:08:37,320
Speaker 2: put Kissinger in danger, right, like he's not giving it

4787
04:08:37,440 --> 04:08:39,759
Speaker 2: enough loyalty to Rummy, who he probably.

4788
04:08:39,440 --> 04:08:40,240
Speaker 1: Hates at this point.

4789
04:08:40,280 --> 04:08:43,120
Speaker 2: Although I don't know that Kissinger can take things personally actually,

4790
04:08:43,520 --> 04:08:44,720
Speaker 2: so maybe like I don't.

4791
04:08:44,560 --> 04:08:48,440
Speaker 1: Know, he he's like the Bill Walsh coaching Tree of

4792
04:08:48,560 --> 04:08:51,600
Speaker 1: War criminals. Yeah, I don't know what that means. Well,

4793
04:08:51,640 --> 04:08:54,120
Speaker 1: Bill Walsh like coached the forty nine ers and invented

4794
04:08:54,120 --> 04:08:56,600
Speaker 1: the West Coast offense and you just see the ripple

4795
04:08:56,640 --> 04:09:00,920
Speaker 1: effect through the NFL for generations in decades. Yeah, changed football,

4796
04:09:01,200 --> 04:09:04,040
Speaker 1: It just changed everything. And it's like that's what he did.

4797
04:09:04,080 --> 04:09:06,000
Speaker 1: He just was the guy who's like, you know, I

4798
04:09:06,040 --> 04:09:08,560
Speaker 1: came up with a new offense, and it's like everyone's

4799
04:09:08,640 --> 04:09:11,160
Speaker 1: just reading off of that playbook and tweaking it. Yeah,

4800
04:09:12,640 --> 04:09:17,200
Speaker 1: said reference Robert Robert. Football is when uh.

4801
04:09:18,560 --> 04:09:25,360
Speaker 2: Ok the title of this episode. I love that guy,

4802
04:09:25,600 --> 04:09:28,480
Speaker 2: Gareth said, of the football, but the politics.

4803
04:09:28,520 --> 04:09:32,240
Speaker 1: I liked the two yeahs, the precedgure. I don't know

4804
04:09:32,280 --> 04:09:37,240
Speaker 1: who that guy is. Noah, Hey, who is that? Yeah.

4805
04:09:37,320 --> 04:09:40,720
Speaker 1: It's like it's like in basketball when Phil Jackson made

4806
04:09:41,360 --> 04:09:42,600
Speaker 1: the triangle offense.

4807
04:09:43,480 --> 04:09:46,560
Speaker 2: That's somebody triangle diplomacy. It's like the triangle thing.

4808
04:09:46,680 --> 04:09:50,560
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, yeah, yeah, like all right, I'll right, A trag.

4809
04:09:51,000 --> 04:09:54,120
Speaker 2: An offense is the opposite of defense, right, Yes, what

4810
04:09:54,160 --> 04:09:56,920
Speaker 2: everyone said, that's what everyone says. In my opinion, it

4811
04:09:57,000 --> 04:09:58,000
Speaker 2: definitely is you know.

4812
04:09:58,280 --> 04:10:01,400
Speaker 1: The team with the most points when well, for sure

4813
04:10:01,520 --> 04:10:02,600
Speaker 1: that's going to be critical.

4814
04:10:02,720 --> 04:10:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And you know when the overtime gets a

4815
04:10:06,080 --> 04:10:08,680
Speaker 2: first down, that's really that's that's probably.

4816
04:10:08,400 --> 04:10:12,120
Speaker 1: I'd finish it. You've nailed it already, absolutely, three pointer,

4817
04:10:12,320 --> 04:10:19,320
Speaker 1: absolutely point touchdown for Robert. Let's go glove trotters. Well, honestly,

4818
04:10:19,440 --> 04:10:23,800
Speaker 1: thank you for allowing us to enter your dojo and

4819
04:10:24,400 --> 04:10:26,400
Speaker 1: mess around for a little while. I don't know.

4820
04:10:26,560 --> 04:10:30,920
Speaker 2: Thank you is the right thank you, bro, I thank

4821
04:10:30,960 --> 04:10:34,800
Speaker 2: you for listening to me read thirty one thousand words about.

4822
04:10:38,640 --> 04:10:40,160
Speaker 9: Because we talked about it and I was like, I

4823
04:10:40,200 --> 04:10:42,200
Speaker 9: can't do it because it's not one episode, it's so

4824
04:10:42,440 --> 04:10:43,240
Speaker 9: any episode.

4825
04:10:43,320 --> 04:10:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like the minimum I think responsibly cover

4826
04:10:48,120 --> 04:10:51,280
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger. Like, we could have done another couple episodes.

4827
04:10:51,320 --> 04:10:57,520
Speaker 1: Hey, let's do it it, Gareth, Yes, just rip a couple.

4828
04:10:58,640 --> 04:11:01,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll get a couple of photos of him hanging

4829
04:11:01,400 --> 04:11:03,880
Speaker 2: out with Jill Saint John, joke about his hog.

4830
04:11:04,320 --> 04:11:07,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take it on the road. We can get

4831
04:11:07,200 --> 04:11:10,800
Speaker 1: another forty minutes of content out of that. Honestly, we

4832
04:11:10,840 --> 04:11:13,400
Speaker 1: could just keep redoing partons of this on the road

4833
04:11:13,440 --> 04:11:14,400
Speaker 1: for a year and a half.

4834
04:11:14,640 --> 04:11:18,040
Speaker 2: The develop and Behind the Bastards present three guys going

4835
04:11:18,080 --> 04:11:20,960
Speaker 2: through shots of Henry Kissinger at fancy parties and talking

4836
04:11:21,000 --> 04:11:23,120
Speaker 2: about the shape of his dick under his pants.

4837
04:11:23,120 --> 04:11:25,960
Speaker 1: Honestly, honestly, it should work.

4838
04:11:26,440 --> 04:11:28,400
Speaker 2: Looks like he was having a chubb day today. What

4839
04:11:28,440 --> 04:11:29,360
Speaker 2: do you think, Dave.

4840
04:11:31,080 --> 04:11:33,280
Speaker 1: At the walnuts on the table, I'm the only one

4841
04:11:33,280 --> 04:11:36,440
Speaker 1: I'm focused on. Look at those tennis shorts.

4842
04:11:37,720 --> 04:11:41,720
Speaker 2: This is how we make our millions.

4843
04:11:42,160 --> 04:11:43,800
Speaker 1: Well, genuinely, thank you.

4844
04:11:44,120 --> 04:11:49,760
Speaker 9: I'm generally super scared having watched how Colin Powell was treated.

4845
04:11:50,040 --> 04:11:53,480
Speaker 1: Oh yes, when he died. Beast scared. People are going

4846
04:11:53,520 --> 04:11:57,200
Speaker 1: to react to Yeaher's death. Yeah, you're going to watch

4847
04:11:57,240 --> 04:12:00,120
Speaker 1: liberals be like he was fucking awesome and you're just

4848
04:12:00,200 --> 04:12:04,000
Speaker 1: like everything about him was bad. Yeah, yeah, w it'll

4849
04:12:04,040 --> 04:12:09,920
Speaker 1: be fun. Any pluggables at the end here, sure? Yeah, listen. Well,

4850
04:12:09,960 --> 04:12:12,360
Speaker 1: first of all, we've got the Kissinger. We should do

4851
04:12:12,480 --> 04:12:16,240
Speaker 1: Kissinger live, and we should use the kiss font and

4852
04:12:16,280 --> 04:12:18,360
Speaker 1: we should also wear like the kiss makeup and we

4853
04:12:18,360 --> 04:12:22,560
Speaker 1: should just do Kissinger. Yeah. We will be in Australia

4854
04:12:22,720 --> 04:12:26,360
Speaker 1: and America. Best country on Earth will be in Australia

4855
04:12:26,360 --> 04:12:28,720
Speaker 1: in the middle of April to May. You can go

4856
04:12:28,760 --> 04:12:31,320
Speaker 1: to dollapodcast dot com for all that information. We're all

4857
04:12:31,320 --> 04:12:33,880
Speaker 1: over the place. And then I am doing stand up

4858
04:12:33,880 --> 04:12:36,560
Speaker 1: in Australia and also over the summer, so you can

4859
04:12:36,560 --> 04:12:38,480
Speaker 1: go to Gareth Reynolds dot com for all that information

4860
04:12:38,840 --> 04:12:42,320
Speaker 1: and you can follow us on social media's with our

4861
04:12:42,960 --> 04:12:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm at Reynolds, Gareth Dave's at Dave Underscore Anthony on Instagram.

4862
04:12:47,120 --> 04:12:49,840
Speaker 1: I'm at Reynolds Gareth on Twitter, Dave's at Dave Anthony

4863
04:12:49,880 --> 04:12:56,200
Speaker 1: on Twitter and who all right, thank you for having

4864
04:12:56,280 --> 04:12:57,160
Speaker 1: us again. Mother.

4865
04:12:58,480 --> 04:13:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone go pray for Henry Kissinger's painful demise. Yeah,

4866
04:13:08,480 --> 04:13:11,080
Speaker 2: let's have let's all hope that Tim tim Allen takes

4867
04:13:11,160 --> 04:13:16,200
Speaker 2: him out somehow smuggles coke into a party Kissinger's at

4868
04:13:16,240 --> 04:13:18,440
Speaker 2: and it just blows out the old man's heart.

4869
04:13:19,160 --> 04:13:21,760
Speaker 1: Or he just starts doing war improvement with Kissinger. Yah,

4870
04:13:21,920 --> 04:13:26,880
Speaker 1: his character. Yeah, Kissinger would be the you know, the

4871
04:13:27,120 --> 04:13:30,000
Speaker 1: the owl. He's the owl, right right?

4872
04:13:30,120 --> 04:13:36,720
Speaker 2: Oh, you got a bomb Cambodia, Tim, all right, there's

4873
04:13:36,760 --> 04:13:37,040
Speaker 2: a good.

4874
04:13:37,280 --> 04:13:42,360
Speaker 1: That's a note. Dingo Behind the Bastards is a production

4875
04:13:42,560 --> 04:13:45,320
Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media,

4876
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Speaker 1: visit our website cool zonemedia dot com, or check us

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Speaker 1: out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts.