WEBVTT - Episode 8: The Detective 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:03.280 Jennifer Blag was riding high on her discovery that the 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:06.480 snitch in Lee's case was not just a one time thing, 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:10.360 but a serial informant for the Chicago Police Department who 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:15.800 had received benefits for his services. She gets thinking, if 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:19.000 the detective in Lee's case, Richard Zuli, had a habit 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:22.120 of setting up informants to help a case go his way, 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:24.560 what other habits might he have. 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:26.840 I've got to get my shit together on this and 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:28.280 argue it properly. 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:33.000 Is it a pattern of dishonesty? What is the. 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:39.960 Pattern coercive interview techniques for example, intimidation, maybe withholding exculpatory evidence. 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.519 Perhaps Jennifer was searching for proof that Zuli's way of 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:49.000 doing police work was habitual, unlawful, and traceable across cases, 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.280 so she could show a judge that what happened to 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:57.040 Lee was part of a pattern, not an accident. Jennifer 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.560 knows it's time to dig in, and not just on 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:04.120 Lee's case, but all of Zuli's cases across his entire career. 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.319 You have to lay out every case and then you 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:11.639 have to look again and again and again. It is very, 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.320 very time consuming, tedious work. 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:16.920 But there was no way, Jennifer was going to be 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:19.840 put off. See, a special kind of fire was brewing 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.080 in her belly when it came to Dick Richard Zuli, 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:25.240 a man she'd never met, but who case by case, 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.040 she felt she was starting to develop a pretty clear 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:31.800 picture of To be sure, Zuli had never been charged 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:34.160 with the crime, but it was safe to say he 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:35.320 had touched a nerve. 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:41.759 He epitomizes the type of personality I cannot stand. Someone 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.919 who thinks they're smarter than everyone else, someone who's gotten 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:49.320 away with it their entire life and has been rewarded 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:55.360 for that behavior, which only compounds their ego and drive 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:57.680 to keep doing the bad things. 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:00.440 Her journey into Zuli's career was going to take her 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.600 from the urban epicenter of the American Midwest all the 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.720 way to a remote US outpost etched into the edge 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.920 of Cuba's southeastern coast. 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.280 I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I'm very 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:14.120 determined to take him down. 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:30.160 I'm Dax Devlin Ross and from iHeartMedia. This is Crime 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:45.320 Wolf episode eight, The Detective. So who is Detective Richard 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:49.520 Patrick Zulie. Well, it really depends on who you ask. 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:56.600 Here's what we know about his early life. He was 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.799 born on October third, nineteen forty six. He had a 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:04.120 route around age ten and was flipping burgers by thirteen. 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:08.359 At twenty, he joined the Marine Corps and then went 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.480 on to serve as an officer in the United States Navy. 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:16.240 That's when things start to get a little more complicated, 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.840 and depending on who you ask, you might get very 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:26.320 different answers. Here's one version. In nineteen seventy he embarked 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.160 on a distinguished thirty seven year career in the Chicago 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.440 Police Department. As a detective, he would make a name 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:36.400 for himself, closing case after case, cases like the Dane 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.120 of Feitler murder. He even managed to study for a 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:44.200 master's during this time in criminal social justice. His calling 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:49.880 card as a detective a knack for getting confessions. In 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:52.680 the early two thousands, he was sent on a special 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:57.080 assignment to Guantanamo Bay soon after the nine eleven terror attacks. 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.200 After two years, he returned to his role as a 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.240 Chicago Police detective before finally retiring on a full police 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:09.960 pension aged sixty one in two thousand and seven. There's 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.400 another version of Zuli's story, a version that Lee and 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.800 others like him swear by, and unfortunately for them, it's 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:22.599 loaded with allegations of corruption, cunning and cruelty. Claims of 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:27.039 brutal interrogation techniques that broke bodies and minds, allegations of 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:31.240 prolonged shackling, threats veiled and not so veiled to loved ones, 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.280 allegations of extreme pressure on suspects to implicate themselves and 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.520 others guilty or not, And through it all, not surprisingly 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:45.000 black Chicagoans claimed that they were his primary prey. Oh 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.880 in that stint in Guantanamo, a devastating crescendo of the 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:54.080 techniques he had honed in Chicago. We invited Richard Zuli 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.960 onto the podcast to put all these points to him, 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:01.520 but he declined. He is always publicly denied any wrongdoing. 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.680 So to get a picture of the man, we thought 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:10.479 we'd speak to some people who did meet him. Back 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:13.799 in the early nineteen nineties, when the attorney Andrea Line, 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:17.480 our Angel of death Row, was working on Lee's case. 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.680 Zuli was over a decade into his career as a 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.719 dick and already considered something of a star, but it 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:28.279 was the first time Andrea had come across him. Others 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.360 may have been charmed by his bravado or impressed by 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.080 his intellect. She read him right off the bat. 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:36.440 I was one of the first who ever caught and 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.680 on to what he was doing. And people were like, Oh, 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.440 he's such a smart guy. No, he is a fucking 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:43.880 bad guy. I'm sorry about my language. 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.600 For her, there was just some obvious power dynamics at 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:49.559 play when it came to her client, Lee Harris. 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:51.800 Part of it was that he was just a bully, 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.920 and I could see how Lee would say or do 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:57.800 what Zulie wanted him to. I could see it. 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.640 Andrea alleges that this bullying extended to her as well. 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:08.440 In the run up to Lee's trial, Andrea thought she'd 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.960 subpoena the police records for the case, basically get a 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:16.000 court order to make CPD hand over the files. It 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.880 was a long shot, but you never know what might 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.920 come to light anyway when she gets them back. There's 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:26.920 a tantalizing detail. The hotel that Lee was being put 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.360 up in back when he was the star witness and 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:33.640 the Dana Fightler case was being paid for by Detective 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:38.960 Richard Zuli on his personal credit card. No less, Okay, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.599 so maybe he was going to recoup his outlays on 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:45.560 his expense report. But Andrea wonders, if he's paying for this, 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.480 what else could he be paying for, So she issues 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.680 another subpoena, this time for six months worth of Richard 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:58.839 Zuli's personal records. This gets Zuli's attention, and well, he 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:03.080 kind of just starts making cameos. And Andrea life, he. 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:04.960 Was waiting by my car one time in the parking 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.599 lot across the street in twenty sixth Street. There's a 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.680 parking lot that the public defenders and everyone cops us, 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:14.760 and you're a standing right by my car. He waited 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:16.880 after court to tell me that he knew my address 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:21.160 and where my mother lived and stuff like that. And 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.440 I said, asked him if he was lost. 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.200 I think. Another time, when Andrea is in the Illinois 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.520 Supreme Court giving an oral argument in a different case, 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:35.760 she looks up and there he is, Detective Richard Zuli, 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:37.680 in the middle of the audience. 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:40.040 I tried to act like it didn't bother me. I'm 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.520 not telling you it didn't bother me. Okay, I'm not 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:44.520 telling you that I didn't find him frightening. 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.600 Andrea says this behavior went on for a period of months, 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.200 made worse by the fact that she had a small 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.680 baby at the time. He also made an official complaint 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:58.680 against her to the Attorney Registration Commission. Never in that 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:03.040 period did Zuli physically threatened her, but says Andrea, he 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:03.720 didn't need to. 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:09.840 He wasn't like physically intimidating particularly, He was just he 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:14.160 had that look that I'm going to do whatever it takes. 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.280 Look, that's all I can tell you. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.280 We put all these points to Richard Zuli, but he 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:26.760 declined to comment. Those were Andrea's impressions of Zuli all 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.760 the way back in the early nineties, but had time 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.920 changed him. In twenty eighteen, Tory Marlin, the investigative reporter, 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.559 is putting the final touches on her piece about Lee 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.280 and Robert. She knows she wants to get some answers 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:43.040 from Detective Richard Zuli. He's now seventy two, still living 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.959 in Chicago. What was his take on the Lee Harris case? 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:51.440 Now she takes another long flight across the country back 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.360 to the Windy City. 0:08:55.760 --> 0:09:01.360 So it was December day in Chicago. I drove to 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:06.240 his house on the northwest side of Chicago. It was 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:11.600 a quiet residential street. I'd written a note in advance, 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.920 introducing myself and requesting an interview. My plan was to 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:21.160 put my note in his mailbox. I really didn't expect 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:25.640 him to be there or to answer the door to. 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:30.199 Talk to me, but lo and behold. 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:33.520 I was surprised when he answered the door, and I 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.319 was glad. I was really happy about that. I truly 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.240 wanted to talk to him. So I stood on his 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.400 stoop and I introduced myself. He stood in the doorframe 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.960 and we talked for a bit, long enough for me 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:47.880 to be really cold. 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:49.960 He didn't invite me in. 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:52.040 He just stood in the doorframe. 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.120 Being the professional that she is. Tory can't deviled everything 0:09:58.160 --> 0:09:59.959 that was exchanged on that threshold. 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:04.880 What I can say is that he remembered Lee, and 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:10.319 he was aware of Robert, and he spoke of Lee 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:14.800 in a way that I thought was demeaning. And he 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.880 you peopled me as part of the media and railed 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:23.000 against what he called a cottage industry that had sprung 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:29.880 up to reinvestigate convictions. He was riled up. He was 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:36.720 not happy to see me, and his demeanor was, you know, 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:38.839 he was looming over me. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:39.800 And. 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.520 If he didn't quite point his finger in my face. 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:50.680 It certainly felt like that kind of interaction. It was 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:52.680 very clear to me that I wouldn't want to be 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:56.679 interrogated by him, and I could understand why it would 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:01.560 be intimidating to be interrogated by him, and why you'd 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:04.520 want to end the interrogation as quickly as possible. 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:06.360 Like that was. 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:07.559 That was something. 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:22.080 All fume. 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.679 Over the years, the friends mused about the things they 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.760 would do to Zuli, beat him up, give him a 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.360 taste of his own medicine, But of late Lee had 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:35.960 been getting way more philosophical cure. 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:37.640 You may start the conversation. 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:42.760 Now, what's happening, man? How are you? I'm not frillant? 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.200 Are you feeling Yeah, I'm all right, I'm all right. 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:49.920 Do you want me crazy? Sure? And what's that? You 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:51.520 don't not really that bad at it? 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:52.000 Go up? 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.880 Okay? Because because you act? Because when I get bad 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.120 at it? Then if it's little. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:06.079 Crazy working yourself into a frenzy, fantasizing about someone else's suffering, 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:10.439 even if you feel justified, those can be dangerous pastimes 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.520 when you're doing time. Strong chance you're the one who's 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:19.240 gonna get hurt. Lee somehow had to find other distractions 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:24.360 Alongside his regular phone calls with Robert and Jennifer, he 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.920 would check in with other family and friends, his son Jermaine, 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:31.040 who was by now an adult himself. Then there was 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.319 the letter writing, keeping up with the paperwork on his case, 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.360 but more leisurely pursuits as well, like checking in with 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.440 one of his many female admirers from the Facebook group. 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.319 You can be sure that a real ladies man was 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:48.040 not gonna let prison stand in his way. Singing in 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:52.439 the prison choir, going to church a lot, playing chess, 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:57.280 chatting to other inmates, even prison guards. Lee found any 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.679 way he could defend off the rage and the monotony. 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.240 He worked too, at one point taking up a job 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:07.960 in the prison canteen. But when your weakness is food, 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.400 that can become its own unhealthy coping mechanism. 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:17.680 I think I'm about eight now eight, yeah, keep going, 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:24.360 then five eight, I'm five to eighty. Yeah, you get more. 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.319 Actually I do get more action, You're right about that, 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:33.959 But come on, man, to five eight, I'm making a cute. 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:36.800 You know. That's another reason I need to leave here, 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:45.320 because they have to say no. Well from brand and Cookies, Well, 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:46.480 we'll get you out of there. 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:48.400 You don't want to have to go on a certain diet. 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.360 Then joking aside, it's something Lee knows he needs to 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.640 take seriously. Over the years, he's had more and more 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.880 incidences of poor health, headaches, blackouts, visits to the nurse 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.199 with a weak heart, blood sugar spikes. Both Robert and 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.920 Jennifer are on his case. But see, with Lee, you 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.280 never know when he's just telling you what you want 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:11.280 to hear my big problem. 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:15.400 I thought you were going to say all the time. No, 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.079 I'm just kidding now. 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.280 That's cool though, man, I mean you were a you're 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:20.920 a thin guy. 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:21.240 Man. 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.040 I see that picture of you in that police station. 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:29.040 It's you know, it's amazing. It's amazing how different you are. 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.160 I can tell you're like a young start. 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:34.800 That's for sure. 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.760 The truth is Lee is different in so many ways. 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.960 Years of wrongful incarceration with the mental and physical string 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.320 and that entails the numerous attempts at seeking justice, with 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.920 rejections from seemingly every corner, growing ill health, the world 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.920 outside changing at breakneck speed. Even the prisoners now coming 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.880 into the prison were becoming increasingly alien to Lee. 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.840 He's gonna be nuts, Yeah, I bet, I bet you know, 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.160 they pick up the thick up a year, but they 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:06.200 don't care about nothing. 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:10.160 Well, yeah, I can imagine. 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.600 They complaint, complaint, they complaint, they complain about everything. 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.400 But as Jennifer is getting closer to putting her case together, 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.480 there's a bigger question looming over Lee, perhaps the biggest 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.640 one of them all. One day, Robert decides to broach it. 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.520 Hey, So, so you ever think about like if you 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.840 get out, like, uh, what what that's gonna be like 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.880 for you psychologically and mentally and stuff? 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:35.280 Have you? 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:36.960 Have you even thought about that stuff? 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.920 No? Well, I know it's gotta be I know it's 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:45.640 gotta be different, you know. I know it's gonna I 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:47.040 know it's gonna be an Jeff. 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.120 I mean, it's gonna be some like Vietnam type shit, 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:54.480 you know, even worse. I mean we're talking a thirty 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.760 year stint here, you know. But I mean, like, really 0:15:58.360 --> 0:15:59.840 start thinking about certain things. 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:00.240 You know. 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.040 It's like, what's it gonna be like to go up 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.440 and prepare your own food, to wake up in the 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:07.000 middle of the night and decide that you want to 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.400 warm something up, And the fact that you go walk 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.840 into a restaurant and order some off a menu, and 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.520 it's just it's just a totally different life. 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:20.000 Mean, that's gonna be that's. 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:20.560 Gonna be different. 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:22.040 You know, just to wake up in the middle of 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.600 the ninety fact, pick. 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.440 A walk right, to be able to move around, to 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:29.720 be able to just leave your environment, the things that 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:33.320 we take for granted every day. You know, the noises 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.600 are different. All of a sudden, you wake up and 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.120 you can leave. You haven't made a decision for yourself 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.160 or any of that stuff. And it's like, Lee, I was. 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:43.520 I was in for less than thirty six months. I 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.760 think thirty two is what I did. And and even 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:52.280 for me, I was shell shot coming out. Just walking 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:54.120 up to the freaking fast food counter and going to 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.360 a double cheeseburger was weird, especially when you have to 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.200 go in your pocket and pay for it. Yeah. Uh. 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:05.920 Before up used to just go up to the tower 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:06.919 all get for being. 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.720 Yeah, yeah, I mean that's some real stuff. Man. 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.960 These thoughts about a life beyond the institution, where you're 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.080 free to be the master of your own destiny begin 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.560 to swirl and leaves mind. The next day, he's back 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:22.680 on the phone to Robert. 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.679 You may start the conversation now, right, Hey, what's up? 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:27.040 Say? 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.240 I thought about the question you ask me, What would 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.159 I do well? If I walked up the door? Hey? 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:35.760 Would you believe that? 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.760 The more I thought about it, the more nervous I became, 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.640 because I mean I would be walking out of here 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:45.399 in a new world. 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:47.399 Without stopping. 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.160 Now you'd have me, man, you got everything. 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.639 Jennifer Black was in her own world of anguish. It 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.440 was now twenty twenty one. She'd been on Lee's case 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.640 for six years, going deep on her research and detective 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.919 Zuli's career, but still not quite ready to present all 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:14.560 the evidence. 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.200 At some point, I started feeling like, Okay, I'm the 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:20.840 person who has to make a happy ending to this story. 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:21.879 It is on me. 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:24.720 And it was a little overwhelming, a lot overwhelming. 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.640 I mean I did a deep dive trying to find 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.480 anything I could from people who had worked with Zuli 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:32.040 at that time. 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.359 She wonders about Zuli's time in Guantanamo, a world away 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:41.119 from Chicago on the surface, or was it. During his 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:45.159 time in Guantanamo, Zuli had overseen an infamous interrogation of 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:49.800 Mohammad ud Slahi, the Maritanian engineer who had been brought 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.320 in for questioning, not long after the nine to eleven 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:56.240 terror attacks. There was only one issue he wouldn't confess to. 0:18:56.320 --> 0:19:00.800 Well, anything, I mean, Guantanamo stuff is like really really 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:04.120 mind blowing. And you look at what he did to Slahe, 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.560 and it is just this is what's interesting. They call 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.240 it an enhanced interrogation. 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:14.480 Enhanced, according to Slahee, was code word for an array 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:18.200 of demeaning and brutal torture tactics, and when those didn't 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.879 yield a confession, a falsified letter saying Slahee's mother would 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:25.160 be hauled into Guantanamo was the thing that finally made 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:29.960 him crumble. He began to confess statement after statement implicating 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.359 himself in acts of terror that he did not commit. 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:39.960 It's his cheating and sadistic mind on steroids where he 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:43.919 is able to live out like his darkest fantasies. 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:48.120 We put this point specifically to Richard Zuli. He declined 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:52.359 to comment. Back in twenty fifteen, when the Guardian article 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.520 at first alerted Lee, Robert and Jennifer to Zuli's overseas excursion, 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:01.200 Mohammadu was still behind bars in Guantanamo, but now in 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.720 twenty twenty one, Jennifer wonders if he could give Lee's 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.960 case a helping hand. Finally, after lots of phone calls 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:11.960 with his lawyer, she finally convinces him to talk. 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.600 When I was able to talk to Mohammadu, I remember 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:17.960 I was sitting in my backyard. It was a nice day, 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.399 and it was via Zoom, and I remember taking notes 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:24.119 and talking to him, and it was so. 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:26.800 Powerful. 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.360 He tells Jennifer about some of the horrifying acts inflicted 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.280 on him during his fourteen year detainment. 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.479 It's such a powerful story and when you hear him 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:36.680 say it, you feel it. 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.560 Mohammadu tells Jennifer that even though the acts of brutality 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.840 were never personally carried out by him, he felt that 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:49.480 Zuli was the architect of his torture. After their Zoom call, 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:54.080 Jennifer convinces Slahi to make an official contribution to Lee's petition. 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.280 That was a huge accomplishment, having him agree to talk 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.000 to us, be willing to sign an AFFI day, get 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:02.080 a declaration for him. 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:04.960 And I still remember that he called Zuli diabolical. 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:10.119 Zuli is a diabolical man. I cannot imagine that I 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.359 am the first person he sought to frame for a 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.040 crime they did not commit. For that reason, I believe 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.680 every case in which he was a lead detective should 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:24.439 be reviewed by the Cook County State's Attorney's office. Zuli 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:28.040 has never publicly admitted to framing anyone for crimes they 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:31.639 did not commit. We reached out specifically about these points, 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:35.240 but he declined to comment. As recently as twenty twenty five. 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.680 In a deposition in another case, when asked about his 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.840 time in Guantanamo Bay, he said he was sent there 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:46.240 as a liaison officer for the European Command. When asked 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.200 if he was sent there to conduct interrogations, his answer 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:58.200 was no, and his attorney allowed no further questions. Jennifer's 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:02.639 claims against Detective Zuli were growing and growing, the unethical 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:06.760 use of informants, the Brady violation, and now this damning 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:11.040 statement from Slahe but she wanted more, and she was 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:15.080 convinced there must be something in Zuli's own police reports. 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:20.440 And by now Jennifer had gotten up close and personal 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:23.119 with dig Zuli's police reports from across his career. 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:26.240 He's like a bad detective novelist. 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.359 When you read his police reports, you can tell this 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:31.639 asshole wants to write books like he. 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:33.760 Thinks he's hot shit and he thinks he's right. Like 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:36.960 in the confession. Invariably, Zuli comes in and he's like, 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:40.680 give it up, I know you did it, And then 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:42.520 he writes they broke down. 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:45.760 He webb, he said I did it, and then he 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:48.960 explained everything that happened, like you got me, Dick Zulee. 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.920 His sophomore pros aside, there was something else that was 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:56.200 bugging her about the reports Zuli had written throughout Lee's case. 0:22:56.880 --> 0:23:01.119 She just didn't quite know what. So Jennifer decides she 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:03.720 needs to go back through all of Zuli's paperwork during 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:06.879 the daya Feitler case what they call the gprs, or 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:08.800 general progress reports. 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:14.400 There were two sets of general progress reports. One set 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:17.720 a complete set that was unsigned and unapproved. There was 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:21.639 another set that had been signed by Zuli and approved 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:22.520 by a supervisor. 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:25.800 In case you're wondering, it is common practice for police 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:28.959 to write reports by hand first, then to type them 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:29.800 up soon after. 0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:33.440 There were mirror copies of each other. In large part, 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.480 if you were reading one and then later you read another, 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:38.760 the gist of it was the same. 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.520 But then Jennifer starts reading them all together, and that's 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:45.480 when an all together different picture starts to emerge. 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:53.840 In the signed copies, Zuli had added things or rewritten 0:23:53.880 --> 0:23:56.720 them and taken things out. But you wouldn't realize the 0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:59.359 subtleties of things he had added until you laid them 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:01.439 side by side and started comparing the me I had 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:02.520 to compare word for word. 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:04.480