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Speaker 1: Kay Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a

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Speaker 1: weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the

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Speaker 1: small decisions we can make to become the best possible

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Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

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Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

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Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for Session one forty of the Therapy

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Speaker 1: You for Black Girls Podcast. Today's session is centered on

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Speaker 1: another topic requested by several community members, and that's how

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Speaker 1: to heal after an abortion. We know that this is

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Speaker 1: a decision that can be very difficult to make and

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Speaker 1: one that can be made for many different reasons in

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Speaker 1: the aftermath, can be one that's very complicated to wait through.

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Speaker 1: To offer her tips for healing and insight about how

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Speaker 1: she works with clients in this space, we're joined today

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Speaker 1: by Kesha Wells. Keisha is a licensed professional counselor and

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Speaker 1: Perinato mental health specialists practicing in Columbus, Georgia. As the

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Speaker 1: owner of Transformation Counseling Services, she helps women navigate the

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Speaker 1: many transitions of womanhood and motherhood. Specifically, Kesha maintains a

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Speaker 1: passion to support women who have endured life altering experiences

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Speaker 1: such as pregnancy and infant laws and postpartum depression and anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Kesha helps her clients to develop their voice and identify

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Speaker 1: in grief and loss, as well as have hope and

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Speaker 1: be empowered. She recently published her first book, From Three

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Speaker 1: Heartbeats to One, a Gentle Companion offering hope in grieving

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Speaker 1: pregnancy and infant loss. Keisha and I chatted about some

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Speaker 1: of the common experiences women may struggle with after an abortion,

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Speaker 1: how to support a friend who's had an abortion, how

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Speaker 1: support systems may change afterwards, and she shares her favorite

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Speaker 1: resources for anyone wanting additional support or information. If you

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Speaker 1: hear anything while listening that resonates with you and you'd

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Speaker 1: like to share, please share it with us on social

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Speaker 1: media using the hashtag tv G in Session. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us a Keisha, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for having me on. Yeah, I'm happy

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Speaker 1: that you were able to join us today because I

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Speaker 1: know that your specialty is in working with women specifically

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Speaker 1: around grief and perinatal lass and that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: And so this has been a topic that has been

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Speaker 1: heavily requested by members of our community, is healing and

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Speaker 1: taking care of yourself after an abortion. So I want

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Speaker 1: to start Keisha by hearing like, what are some of

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Speaker 1: the things that you find or you know previous clients

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Speaker 1: are people that you've heard come in struggling with after

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Speaker 1: an abortion. So in the aftermath, a person may struggle

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Speaker 1: with grief emotional distress, which includes depression, feelings of regret, loneliness,

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Speaker 1: feelings of sadness, and loss, particularly with loss that could

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Speaker 1: look like a loss of identity, a loss of self esteem,

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Speaker 1: even the loss of a partner or a loss of friendship,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately a loss of what life and parenting could

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Speaker 1: have been like with this child. A lot of times

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Speaker 1: individuals state that they feel and complete, so may also

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Speaker 1: be angry with themselves, with their body, with their significant other,

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Speaker 1: even the medical professionals involved. And they may also wrestle

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Speaker 1: with guilt, feeling that they've done a bad thing or shame,

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Speaker 1: feeling that they're a bad person, that they're unworthy. They

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Speaker 1: often struggle with confusion, you know, questioning if they made

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Speaker 1: the right decisions, questioning what others may think about their decision,

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Speaker 1: and even what others may think about them. And then

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Speaker 1: two on the other end of the spectrum of you know,

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Speaker 1: emotional issues and struggle as a person may lack feeling,

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Speaker 1: They may experience numbness or detachment and be totally checked

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Speaker 1: out on an emotional level. So really vary for each person,

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Speaker 1: but many do report struggling in these specific areas. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and you really have shared a lot their keysha,

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Speaker 1: because it feels like depending on like how this decision

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Speaker 1: was made, and you know, the circumstances surrounding the decision making,

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Speaker 1: like it really could determine like how you might react

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Speaker 1: after actually having an abortion. Yeah, for sure, definitely, it's

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Speaker 1: a very personal decision and very unique sort really very

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Speaker 1: based on each person. And I want to go back

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Speaker 1: to some of the things that you said around loss,

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Speaker 1: because I think, you know, one, we tend to only

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Speaker 1: think about loss as like somebody dying, right, and you

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Speaker 1: really shared a lot of great information. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: around like the loss of relationships that can sometimes result

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Speaker 1: as after an abortion. Can you say more about that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So a lot of times your world view really changes

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Speaker 1: and so you change and the way that you interact

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Speaker 1: with other individuals can also have a definite hit and

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Speaker 1: have struggles and they may change as well. So with

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Speaker 1: the loss of a partner, the relationship might take a hit,

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Speaker 1: and so you lose that connection and some answers, couples

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Speaker 1: may not stay together or there may be a loss

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Speaker 1: of a friendship because you feel like that person that

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Speaker 1: you thought was going to support you was not there

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Speaker 1: for you at that time, so you may pull back.

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Speaker 1: So your relationships can start to look different as your

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Speaker 1: coping and dealing. You know with these emotions. You also

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Speaker 1: really touched on Kisha v. Shame and guilt that can

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Speaker 1: sometimes be related to this decision. And I'm curious, you know,

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Speaker 1: from a therapeutic standpoint, like, what are some of the

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Speaker 1: things that you might work with a client on to help,

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Speaker 1: you know, to really kind of work through in process

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Speaker 1: these feelings of shame and guilt. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: really important to bring those emotions and feelings that you

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Speaker 1: are experienced and to bring them to the surface so

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Speaker 1: that you can deal so that you can identify and

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Speaker 1: deal with that. When we think about shame, being able,

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Speaker 1: you know, to separate the action or the experience from

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Speaker 1: your identity. So that really is very important for a

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Speaker 1: person to do because you know, the guilt says that

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Speaker 1: I've done something that's bad, but in the shame part

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Speaker 1: makes you feel like you are a bad person or

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Speaker 1: that you're wholly unworthy, and that's really important to work through,

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Speaker 1: you know, being able to differentiate between, like I said,

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Speaker 1: your identity as a person versus your decision or the experience.

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Speaker 1: I like that distinction that you made right, So the

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Speaker 1: decision versus me as a person, those are not the

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Speaker 1: same thing. What are some things or activities that you

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Speaker 1: found in your work with clients that's helped them in

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Speaker 1: healing after an abortion? So some individuals report that they

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Speaker 1: have found peace and comfort in performing rituals or having

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Speaker 1: ceremonies surrounding the laws. For instance, some have participated in

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Speaker 1: candle ceremonies or memorial ceremonies. They've also served other women

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Speaker 1: or families that are dealing with this type of issue,

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Speaker 1: and some have been able to plant trees or create

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Speaker 1: flower gardens and tribute or memorial. This is a way

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Speaker 1: of kind of on ring their child, and some have

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Speaker 1: even named their child as well. Mm hmmmmmm. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: in some ways it was you know, Jennie talked about

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Speaker 1: some of these similar kinds of things on the episode

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Speaker 1: that we did about healing after a miscarriage, right, so

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Speaker 1: it sounds like in some ways it would be similar

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Speaker 1: kinds of processes. Yeah, so I want to teach you.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned also the idea that like you might lose

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Speaker 1: some friendships because friends may not have supported you the

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Speaker 1: way that you thought that they would. I'm curious to

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Speaker 1: hear if you have suggestions about how friends can support

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Speaker 1: someone after they've had an abortion. Yeah. I think one

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Speaker 1: of the really important aspletes to keep in mind is

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Speaker 1: that just being available, you know, letting your friend know

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Speaker 1: that you care and that you're willing to help. Specifically,

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Speaker 1: that looks like you're being non judgmental, being compassionate, really

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Speaker 1: being present with your friends listening. It's vital. It's a

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Speaker 1: major part of communication, but it's often overlooked at times,

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Speaker 1: and so and wanted to be that helpful friend. You know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of times we're thinking about what is it

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Speaker 1: that I can't say or do, but listening it's just

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Speaker 1: as important. So a friend could provide a listening ear.

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Speaker 1: They could also do some research in this area to

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Speaker 1: gain understanding about the impact of an abortion. They could

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Speaker 1: even provide resources such as sharing this podcast and even

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Speaker 1: asking your friend, the friend that you're wanting to support,

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Speaker 1: ax them for insights on what they need or don't

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Speaker 1: need at this time. That can really be beneficial. And finally,

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Speaker 1: I'll just say, you know, respecting your friends emotional healing

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Speaker 1: process and managing their emotions at this time. Like I

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Speaker 1: mentioned before, you know, grieving as unique and as a

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Speaker 1: personal process, and healing is a personal process. So you

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Speaker 1: want to check in with your friends and allow them

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Speaker 1: to be a subject matter expert on their needs and

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Speaker 1: their wants, and allow them to give you insight if

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Speaker 1: they're able to do so. Want to just back up

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Speaker 1: a little bit also, Keysha, because you talked about like

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Speaker 1: the loss of partnership, and I would imagine that that

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Speaker 1: would be really difficult to kind of heal from and

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Speaker 1: kind of renegotiate with your partner. Like let's say, specifically,

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Speaker 1: if your decision was to terminate the pregnancy and your

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Speaker 1: partner did not agree with that decision, right, and maybe

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Speaker 1: what that work looks like in a therapy space, like

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Speaker 1: how do you even broach that conversation with a partner,

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Speaker 1: you know, like what kinds of ways as a therapist

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Speaker 1: because you support a client in their partner in talking

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Speaker 1: about some of these things. But I think really just

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Speaker 1: being in a space to allow them both to kind

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Speaker 1: of share their perspective, share their concerns, you know, allow

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Speaker 1: them to share their emotions and really work with them

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Speaker 1: on coming to a point of just being able to

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Speaker 1: kind of respect differences and really giving them good communication

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Speaker 1: tools to be able to use so that they can

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Speaker 1: and in a third of way, be able to speak

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Speaker 1: and deal with conflict in a respectful way. But that

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Speaker 1: can be very difficult, you know, of course, and any

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Speaker 1: type of couple's work, you know, if individuals are not

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Speaker 1: on the same path, but it can be really helpful

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Speaker 1: to allow them to have that space to be able

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Speaker 1: to talk and share and then also help them to

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Speaker 1: you know, be able to respect each other's points of view.

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Speaker 1: Something else that I have you know, in reading Kisha,

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Speaker 1: it seems like something else that people struggle with specifically

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Speaker 1: related to like healing after an abortion is like thoughts

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Speaker 1: about like difficulty having future children or if there is

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Speaker 1: some difficulty with like miscarriages, are you know, struggles with

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Speaker 1: fertility in the future that there is a lot tied

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Speaker 1: to like, oh, this is like punishment so to speak,

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Speaker 1: for a previous abortion. Yeah, some do report experiencing and

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Speaker 1: having those types of thoughts, And I think that's where

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Speaker 1: therapy can be really helpful to have a person sit

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Speaker 1: down and kind of work through those thoughts and work

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Speaker 1: with those emotions, and then also, you know, the person

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Speaker 1: being able to when they have these thoughts, you know,

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Speaker 1: to process that, but then to also kind of as

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Speaker 1: a form of self care, being able to replace that

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Speaker 1: type of thought pattern with some self compassion and some

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Speaker 1: self love. But it is a definitely concern and fear

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Speaker 1: for many that and that kind of goes back to

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Speaker 1: the shame piece is that I'm bad. So because I've

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Speaker 1: done something that perceived as bad then and I'm a

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Speaker 1: bad person, then I'm not going to experience any good things,

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Speaker 1: meaning that I'm not worthy. So there can be a

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Speaker 1: loss there in their innocence and parenting and kind of

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Speaker 1: change their views of what parenting can be like for them.

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Speaker 1: I'm really glad that you touched on the self compassion

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Speaker 1: piece because I feel like that would be huge when

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Speaker 1: you're talking with the client about some of these concerns. Right,

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Speaker 1: just the ability to kind of be very gentle and

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Speaker 1: kind with yourself. Can you say more about that? I

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Speaker 1: think that is like one of the most major aspects

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Speaker 1: of self care because that looks like you being really

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Speaker 1: intentional with identifying and paying attention to how you handle you.

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Speaker 1: So are you working to silence that inner critics, that

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Speaker 1: condemning or negative voice. Are you identifying and challenging those

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Speaker 1: negative thoughts and beliefs that you have about yourself? And

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Speaker 1: do you understand what that source of that inner judges?

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Speaker 1: Where does where does those negative beliefs and those feelings

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Speaker 1: come from? Where does that voice come from? So it's

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Speaker 1: like I said before, it's really important to work to

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Speaker 1: differentiate between the experience and your identity and also being

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Speaker 1: able to know who you are even in the face

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Speaker 1: of loss in this most difficult outcome, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: important to remind yourself of your strength and remind yourself

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Speaker 1: of the ways that you may have process and work

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Speaker 1: some difficult endings and losses. In the past. So self care,

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Speaker 1: compassion and self love and positive self taut is an

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Speaker 1: aspect of self care. Mm hmm. And because you already

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Speaker 1: talked about like how many losses there may be, I

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Speaker 1: would imagine that sometimes this can be a very alienating process, right,

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Speaker 1: and taking care of yourself and the self care and

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Speaker 1: healing that comes afterwards may be very lonely, right because

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Speaker 1: of some of the shame pieces, or if there have

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Speaker 1: been losses in relationships. So can you talk about maybe

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Speaker 1: some resources either online or in real life that people

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Speaker 1: might be able to utilize that would be able to

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Speaker 1: give them some additional support at that point. Sure, a

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Speaker 1: lot of individuals have stated that that they received support

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Speaker 1: from retreats, so they've identified the retreats as being comforting, compassionate.

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Speaker 1: They stated that they received clarity and healing and attending

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Speaker 1: these retreats. And a person can do just a simple

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Speaker 1: online search and come up with various results, and they

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Speaker 1: would just have to be able to identify what retreat

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Speaker 1: looks best for them and what's closer you know to

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Speaker 1: them in their location. But a lot of people have

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Speaker 1: identified retreats as a safe space for them to be seen,

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Speaker 1: to be heard, and validated, so that can be a

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Speaker 1: good resource as well as using bibliotherapy, so that means

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Speaker 1: going to an online search just looking at different books

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Speaker 1: that you know you may be to reading your spare

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Speaker 1: time and read privately to get insight and to get

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Speaker 1: skills and learn a ways to cope and manage. One

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Speaker 1: particular book is The Healing Choice, Your Guide to Emotional

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Speaker 1: Recovery after an Abortion, and this book offers really thought

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Speaker 1: provoking questions and challenges the reader to confront the unresolved

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Speaker 1: feelings that they may be having. And it also shares

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Speaker 1: the stories of other women and their personal experiences and

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Speaker 1: working towards healing and emotional recovery. And finally, I would

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Speaker 1: say that counseling is really a good resource as well,

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Speaker 1: because this is really the and personal work. So it

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Speaker 1: can be helpful to find a good therapist who's a

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Speaker 1: good fit, who works in your area, who works specifically

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Speaker 1: in this area to be able to give you, you know,

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Speaker 1: some tools to help you process and work through your emotions,

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Speaker 1: because not everybody has, you know, a strong support system.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes counseling can be helpful because it allows you

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Speaker 1: to be able to, you know, speak unfiltered and work

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Speaker 1: with someone who's not biased and judgmental. So counseling can

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Speaker 1: definitely be a safe space. So in addition to the

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Speaker 1: workaround self compassion and providing support in the face of

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Speaker 1: maybe losses of support, are there other pieces of the

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Speaker 1: therapy way that you think are really important for somebody

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Speaker 1: healing after an abortion. I think it's really important and

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Speaker 1: kind of ties into self care as well, is just

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Speaker 1: to allow yourself to feel, allow yourself to grieve and

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Speaker 1: identify emotions. And that's something that is so hard for

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Speaker 1: many of us. So many times when we are grieving,

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Speaker 1: we run, you know, from those difficult emotions because they

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Speaker 1: are hard and their unpleasant to feel at the time.

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Speaker 1: But the failure to identify those feelings can be really

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Speaker 1: detrimental because those feelings don't go away, and so if

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Speaker 1: we're not intentional and learning how to channel or work

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Speaker 1: through them, they'll show up in negative and harmful way.

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Speaker 1: So I would say that maybe journaling or even using

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Speaker 1: a feeling list to be able to help identify what

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Speaker 1: you're feeling and help your process and articulate those emotions,

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Speaker 1: that can be a great asset. I know some people

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Speaker 1: don't like journaling because it can be kind of overwhelming

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Speaker 1: and you may feel like, well, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: to write. But just simply taking notes and jotting down

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Speaker 1: phrases that come to mind, or even using bulletin lists

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Speaker 1: or even drawing can be effective to help you recognize

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Speaker 1: and track emotions. So I think journaling is a good

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Speaker 1: exercise and tool to help a person and identifying their

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Speaker 1: emotions and allowing themselves to feel. And something else I

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Speaker 1: think that is important to talk about, Keysha, is that

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Speaker 1: there may be kind of conflicting feelings that come up

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Speaker 1: after an emotion, right, you know, because I think you know,

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Speaker 1: for some people, it can be an experience of maybe

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Speaker 1: sadness and grief, but also maybe some relief, depending again,

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Speaker 1: depending on the circumstances. Right, And so I'm wondering how

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Speaker 1: you might be able to, like, what you might be

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Speaker 1: able to share for people who may be really confused

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Speaker 1: about like WHOA that doesn't feel like I should quote

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Speaker 1: unquote be feeling that right now? Yeah, so when we

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Speaker 1: are grieving, you know, because like I said before, it

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Speaker 1: is such a personal experience. You know, you do feel

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Speaker 1: a lot of different emotions, so you may, like you said,

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Speaker 1: feel those conflicting emotions. You might feel a sense of

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Speaker 1: sadness and despair and then on one end, but on

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Speaker 1: the other end, you may feel like you have made

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Speaker 1: the best decision for yourself, so that might bring about

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Speaker 1: a measure of relief. So there really are no rules

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Speaker 1: and no right and wrong when it comes to greeting

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Speaker 1: and it because it is such a personal experience and

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Speaker 1: it varies from person to person and it is so unique.

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Speaker 1: There really are no rules to that. There's no right

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Speaker 1: or wrong way to that. Yeah, And I think this

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Speaker 1: is where, you know, sometimes the friendship piece can kind

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Speaker 1: of get really sticky, right because it feels like for

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Speaker 1: a lot of other things, maybe you don't agree with

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Speaker 1: your friend in terms of relationship choices or whatever, but

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Speaker 1: you still find a way to be there. Right. But

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Speaker 1: it feels like abortion is one of those things, you know,

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Speaker 1: because of the politics and morality and all those things

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Speaker 1: that are tied into it. It feels like this is

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Speaker 1: where it can be really confusing sometimes about like how

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Speaker 1: to show up for a friend even if it would

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Speaker 1: not be the decision you made. Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's where it comes down to, like I said before,

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Speaker 1: with the third omness, sometimes when you are on different

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Speaker 1: ends and you have different arguments or concerns, you still

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Speaker 1: have to be able to respect that person, you know,

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Speaker 1: decision or respect their conviction and their thoughts behind that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that. So you already shared in terms of

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Speaker 1: retreats in the book the Healing Choice that you recommend

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Speaker 1: as resources. Are there other resources that you find particularly

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Speaker 1: helpful for people who may want to read more get

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Speaker 1: more support in this area. Well, I would say there

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Speaker 1: is a wealth of information, and I think a part

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Speaker 1: of being empowered on a person's healing and grief journey

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Speaker 1: is really to kind of like explore on their own

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Speaker 1: to do their own research. So I would advocate and

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Speaker 1: and stress that as well that a person you know,

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Speaker 1: just take that as a personal exploration to be able

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Speaker 1: to kind of seek out what resources will work best

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Speaker 1: for them, because again it is such a personal and

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Speaker 1: unique experience. But as I stated before, retreats and the

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Speaker 1: book and counseling Atholics are really good resources. Perfect And

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Speaker 1: where can people find you? Keisha? Can you share your

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Speaker 1: website as well as any social media handles you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share? Sure? So I would love for listeners to

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Speaker 1: connect with me online at Keisha well dot com or

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Speaker 1: on Instagram at k Wills LPC, and those links will

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Speaker 1: take it to the work that I'm doing in the

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Speaker 1: field with women and mom perfect Keisha, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for sharing all that with us today. Oh, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much. I'm so glad Keisha was able to

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Speaker 1: share her expertise with us today. To learn more about

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Speaker 1: Keisha and her practices and the resources she shared, visit

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Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com

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Speaker 1: slash Session one forty, and don't forget to share this

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Speaker 1: episode with two people in your circle and share your

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Speaker 1: takeaways with us either on Twitter or in your I

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Speaker 1: G stories using the hashtag tv G in session. If

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Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist, check out our therapist directory

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And

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Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic and

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Speaker 1: meet some other sisters in your area, come on over

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Speaker 1: and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective, where we

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Speaker 1: take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast

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Speaker 1: and just about everything else. You can join us at

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C.

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Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for joining me again this week.

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Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all

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Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care,