1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,880
Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

2
00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:03,720
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

3
00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

4
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:07,840
Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

5
00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,039
Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

6
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,520
Speaker 1: four seven eight six Trust that's.

7
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,079
Speaker 2: Three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

8
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,920
Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

9
00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,279
Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust me.

10
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,160
Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived.

11
00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,280
Speaker 1: To you, I've never live.

12
00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,600
Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers, don't.

13
00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:34,839
Speaker 3: Welcome to Trust Me.

14
00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:39,040
Speaker 2: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two

15
00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,839
Speaker 2: overcomers who've actually experienced it.

16
00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,200
Speaker 3: I am Loula Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

17
00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,200
Speaker 2: Today our guest is Marlene Wennell, psychologist, educator, and author

18
00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,080
Speaker 2: of Leaving the Fold, a guide for former Fundamentalists and

19
00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,159
Speaker 2: others leaving their religion. We're going to talk about how

20
00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,480
Speaker 2: she came to study the negative impacts of religion, how

21
00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,000
Speaker 2: some of the basic concepts of Christianity can actually be

22
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,360
Speaker 2: inherently harmful, and why authoritary structures of religion can lead

23
00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,240
Speaker 2: to all kinds of challenges, including possibly trauma.

24
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,959
Speaker 1: We'll discuss whether religion can be healthy, learned helplessness and

25
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 1: a framework where you believe the world is ending, the

26
00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,400
Speaker 1: difference between knowing something rationally and believing it emotionally, and

27
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,280
Speaker 1: the spectrum of meaning, and what that looks like after

28
00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:18,440
Speaker 1: leaving a religion.

29
00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 2: That's right before we go go in me for before

30
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:30,800
Speaker 2: me mo in, before we get into it with Marlene,

31
00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,000
Speaker 2: what's your cooldus thing?

32
00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:34,199
Speaker 3: There's so much.

33
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,960
Speaker 1: It's been a crazy last couple of weeks, but I've

34
00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,080
Speaker 1: been really excited to speak to Marlan for a really

35
00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 1: long time. She is the person who coined the term

36
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 1: religious trauma syndrome, which I think is so important and

37
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,600
Speaker 1: helped me unwrap a lot for myself. And I think

38
00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,200
Speaker 1: we talk in the in the episode about how cognitively

39
00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,560
Speaker 1: it's easier to unwrap indoctrination than it is emotionally. And

40
00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:00,400
Speaker 1: I think I'm coming to a point in my life

41
00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,040
Speaker 1: where I'm just like, these emotional blocks are these ways

42
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,760
Speaker 1: of not moving forward in my life. We speak briefly

43
00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:08,560
Speaker 1: in the episode of like I was kind of always

44
00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,840
Speaker 1: taught the world was about to end, Like it wasn't

45
00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:15,520
Speaker 1: like I was really planning for the future. Yeah, which

46
00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,600
Speaker 1: I don't know why it is funny to be on it,

47
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,840
Speaker 1: but like now, just sitting here, I'm like, oh shit,

48
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,440
Speaker 1: Like I have a lot to process of how to

49
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,680
Speaker 1: actually be an adult that hampers so much your growth

50
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,000
Speaker 1: and adult maturity and all of these things that again,

51
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,320
Speaker 1: cognitively I've been able to I think overcome as best

52
00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:38,000
Speaker 1: as I can.

53
00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:39,680
Speaker 3: But there's still a lot of work to do. It's

54
00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 3: so interesting.

55
00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,799
Speaker 2: I also thought the world was ending my whole childhood. Yeah,

56
00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,960
Speaker 2: but for some reason, I still was always imagining my

57
00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,239
Speaker 2: future because I think I was like, well, it could

58
00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,079
Speaker 2: happen when I'm eighty, you know, or it could happen

59
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:52,720
Speaker 2: after I'm dead.

60
00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:53,440
Speaker 3: We just don't know.

61
00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,800
Speaker 1: I think kind of what we were talking about earlier

62
00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:57,960
Speaker 1: before the episode starts, like, I feel like your dream

63
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,240
Speaker 1: future was a possibility for you within the structure of

64
00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:02,760
Speaker 1: your family and within the.

65
00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,079
Speaker 3: Structure supportive mom.

66
00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to be a pop star, okay,

67
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,760
Speaker 1: Whereas if I were to say what I really wanted

68
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,840
Speaker 1: to be, it wouldn't have been acceptable. So then I

69
00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,040
Speaker 1: don't think that like dreamer part of you can really

70
00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,679
Speaker 1: take over, which might be I don't know, maybe so

71
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:19,840
Speaker 1: until look at.

72
00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:20,280
Speaker 3: I think you're right.

73
00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,760
Speaker 2: I think like the structure of your religion is obviously

74
00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:24,839
Speaker 2: very important, but how much your parents.

75
00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,880
Speaker 3: Subscribe to that structure exactly.

76
00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,880
Speaker 2: Is equally, if not more important, because if your mom

77
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:31,720
Speaker 2: takes you to church and the church is telling you

78
00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,520
Speaker 2: one thing, but your mom's like, yeah, that doesn't really matter.

79
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:34,840
Speaker 3: You know, it's.

80
00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,760
Speaker 2: Gonna obviously like shape how you respond to those ideas totally.

81
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, super interesting it is and super daunting. But

82
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,120
Speaker 1: if anybody else is going through this, I'm minute with you,

83
00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,160
Speaker 1: and let's uh, let's fucking and rock and roll.

84
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,720
Speaker 3: Let's rock and roll, Megan.

85
00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,080
Speaker 1: I'm excited for your growth period and I'm excited to

86
00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,720
Speaker 1: see kopos And I'm sure it fucking sucks and is

87
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,280
Speaker 1: challenging and difficult, but like growth is on the other side, Yes,

88
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,280
Speaker 1: growth is also another area that we just have to

89
00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:07,960
Speaker 1: look at as good because you think of it as

90
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,600
Speaker 1: good and I think of it as bad because I

91
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 1: like to be comfortable more than I like to grow.

92
00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,000
Speaker 1: To me, I would rather just stay the same than grow.

93
00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you said that, and it's so interesting to hear

94
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,120
Speaker 2: because that's not how I see you at all, because

95
00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,760
Speaker 2: you are constantly questioning everything.

96
00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:29,680
Speaker 3: You're googling it.

97
00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,000
Speaker 2: To figure out what the real truth is, Like you

98
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,599
Speaker 2: are in pursuit of truth. I feel like most of

99
00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,159
Speaker 2: the time, yes, so I to me, it never occurs

100
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:37,720
Speaker 2: to me that you.

101
00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,040
Speaker 3: Don't like that it doesn't feel good.

102
00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,880
Speaker 1: No, Yeah, I have to find the truth. But I

103
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,720
Speaker 1: wish I didn't. Yeah, you know, I wish I had

104
00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,360
Speaker 1: a different personality which was just easily lulled to sleep

105
00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 1: and I could just.

106
00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,720
Speaker 3: Be like la la la la la. But I don't.

107
00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,680
Speaker 1: So some part of me must very much enjoy growth

108
00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,200
Speaker 1: and it is my highest value.

109
00:04:58,320 --> 00:04:59,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm speaking from fear.

110
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,520
Speaker 1: On the other side, I'll be singing a totally different tune.

111
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:03,839
Speaker 3: Truth makes me horny.

112
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,279
Speaker 2: Oh, Like I love reality, like to the idea of

113
00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 2: that I'm pursuing the actual reality and not what is

114
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,599
Speaker 2: marketed to me or what you know, propaganda or whatever

115
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,800
Speaker 2: or bad science like that is so exciting to me.

116
00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,440
Speaker 3: Like I genuinely light the fuck up when I'm like.

117
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,320
Speaker 2: I have discovered what is actually happening, you know, which

118
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:24,800
Speaker 2: is also what conspiracy theorists do.

119
00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:26,200
Speaker 3: But but.

120
00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,320
Speaker 2: Like, to me, it's about evidence and it's about reality.

121
00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,640
Speaker 2: Like I want reality. I don't want to fake reality. Yes, always,

122
00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,120
Speaker 2: even when it is painful and uncomfortable to have to

123
00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,640
Speaker 2: change my worldview, like, I still want to change it.

124
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,960
Speaker 3: You know, truth makes me horny beautiful. We'll put it

125
00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:42,559
Speaker 3: on a shirt.

126
00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,159
Speaker 1: And I just wanted to add that Vice just came

127
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,520
Speaker 1: out with an article on the two by twos, so

128
00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,120
Speaker 1: anybody who wants to check that out please do. It's

129
00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,760
Speaker 1: very thorough and it's from our past guest Carry and

130
00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:56,719
Speaker 1: Kyle as some of the main narrators.

131
00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:57,720
Speaker 3: So that's amazing.

132
00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,679
Speaker 1: What's the cultiest thing that happened to you this horrific week?

133
00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,920
Speaker 2: I don't have anything articulate to say about this right now,

134
00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,000
Speaker 2: but I just wish that humanity would not be still

135
00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,880
Speaker 2: in the cult of war and destruction and revenge and

136
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,559
Speaker 2: decimation of people. And it makes me very, very sad

137
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 2: that this is still where we are, that innocent people

138
00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 2: would have to suffer for other people's sins, for lack

139
00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,200
Speaker 2: of a better word, it's heartbreaking and so like, it

140
00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,440
Speaker 2: makes you feel very powerless. Obviously, I'm sure many listeners

141
00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,039
Speaker 2: feel the same way when you're like, how do I

142
00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,000
Speaker 2: make them stop? But aside from that, yeah, just to

143
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,800
Speaker 2: so witch Gears I just feel like I had to

144
00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,880
Speaker 2: say something because it's happening and it's fucked up, and again,

145
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:43,320
Speaker 2: nothing articulate to say about it.

146
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:44,120
Speaker 3: But that's where I'm at.

147
00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,280
Speaker 2: But otherwise, yet another person that I used to know

148
00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:53,839
Speaker 2: has become an aspiring cult leader. My gosh, she was

149
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,599
Speaker 2: a person in Hollywood who is out and about and

150
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:03,400
Speaker 2: who isn't you know, very invested in her appearance. And

151
00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:09,000
Speaker 2: I started seeing her Facebook posts recently because Facebook posts

152
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,760
Speaker 2: her Facebook posts. I've been on Facebook a lot, that's

153
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,400
Speaker 2: where her family is. Ye, because she posted something about

154
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,760
Speaker 2: someone who was recently canceled in defense of him, when

155
00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:18,600
Speaker 2: I know for a fact that she had a negative

156
00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:23,160
Speaker 2: sexual experience with him or like coursive, but she was

157
00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,760
Speaker 2: like gung ho talking about him. And then now Facebook

158
00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,040
Speaker 2: is showing me more of her posts. She calls herself

159
00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,800
Speaker 2: a priestess, she's raising money for her church, she is

160
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 2: claiming to have powers, She's doing the whole fucking thing.

161
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:36,760
Speaker 2: And this bitch does not.

162
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,360
Speaker 3: Have powers, Like I knew her.

163
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,120
Speaker 2: First of all, I obviously don't think anyone has powers,

164
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 2: but like, if anyone thinks anyone has powers, I promise

165
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:44,600
Speaker 2: you this person doesn't.

166
00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 3: And she is in a very small.

167
00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 2: Community now, in a like a somewhat isolated part of

168
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,680
Speaker 2: a state. It seems like she has sort of recruited

169
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,280
Speaker 2: people in this small town.

170
00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:59,040
Speaker 3: What kind of powers does she say?

171
00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 2: Like psychic powers, she's channeling the goddess. She's doing the

172
00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,360
Speaker 2: teal Swan thing. And it's a real bummer man, Oh

173
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,400
Speaker 2: my goodness, real fucking sad.

174
00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:10,760
Speaker 3: But hopefully it doesn't stick.

175
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,680
Speaker 2: You know, some people try to be cult leaders and

176
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,280
Speaker 2: it doesn't work, like they're not charismatic enough. So that's

177
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 2: what I'm hoping for. Wow, I know so many people. Yeah,

178
00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,320
Speaker 2: and when you know enough people, like a certain proportion

179
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,480
Speaker 2: of them are going to be aspiring cult leaders. Like

180
00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,400
Speaker 2: in the music industry, I was in a studio with

181
00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,120
Speaker 2: a new person every single day when I was doing

182
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,400
Speaker 2: like the pop writing circuit or whatever. So that's how

183
00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,640
Speaker 2: I knew the one guy who's you know, says he's

184
00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,280
Speaker 2: healing people and isn't. And this one is just you know,

185
00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,480
Speaker 2: just one of the like hundreds of club people that

186
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,480
Speaker 2: I knew back in the day. What a weird time

187
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,880
Speaker 2: and culture we live in where this is like being

188
00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,600
Speaker 2: a healer has such clout and social capital and it

189
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,480
Speaker 2: just all feels very intertwined with the like dystopia that

190
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:53,480
Speaker 2: is social media.

191
00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:58,000
Speaker 1: The pandemic just set up people perfectly for needing simple answers.

192
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:03,440
Speaker 1: I've read the astrawogy podcasts went up like nine hundred percent.

193
00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,600
Speaker 3: Really yeah, yeah, well that explains the demand.

194
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,120
Speaker 2: But on the supply side, well, yeah, you know, like, oh,

195
00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,640
Speaker 2: here's an opportunity. I do think there are a lot

196
00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,680
Speaker 2: of people who are just seeing that opportunity, seeing that demand,

197
00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:16,480
Speaker 2: and being like, well I.

198
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,200
Speaker 3: Can stop in and do that, for sure. I mean,

199
00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:19,200
Speaker 3: I just on the.

200
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,200
Speaker 1: Other side, I have a lot of people who are healers.

201
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,040
Speaker 1: One of my favorite is this Native American woman who

202
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,880
Speaker 1: isn't telling you the future, but she's definitely fucking.

203
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,440
Speaker 3: Awesome, and she's fucking awesome.

204
00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,280
Speaker 1: She's fucking awesome. I believe that she is a healing person.

205
00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,960
Speaker 2: I mean, to me, it's all like psychological elements at play.

206
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,559
Speaker 3: Obviously, someone being nurturing. Yeah good. I'm not saying she's magic.

207
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,040
Speaker 3: I'm saying she's healing. Okay.

208
00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,960
Speaker 2: I think sometimes those things can be used interchangeably, but

209
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,920
Speaker 2: that's an interesting, important distinction. Yeah, I just want to

210
00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 2: mention in this episode, we talk a lot about some

211
00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,280
Speaker 2: of the flaws of Christianity that might be inherent to

212
00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,640
Speaker 2: the religion, and I think it's important for us to

213
00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,240
Speaker 2: mention something that we both believe, which is that you

214
00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,280
Speaker 2: can be in a religion, and you can be religious,

215
00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,640
Speaker 2: and you can be Christian, and you're in a healthy

216
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,880
Speaker 2: organization that encourages individuality and freedom of thought and even

217
00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:21,040
Speaker 2: sometimes encourages faith without being authoritarian, without diminishating its members

218
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,120
Speaker 2: or taking advantage of them, like healthy religion is possible.

219
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 2: I just want to contextualize that conversation with that, because

220
00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:29,280
Speaker 2: that's something we both feel strongly about.

221
00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:29,760
Speaker 3: Totally.

222
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:42,760
Speaker 2: All right, should we talk to Marlene. Please welcome Marlene

223
00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,240
Speaker 2: Wennell to trust me. Thank you so much for joining

224
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:45,959
Speaker 2: us today.

225
00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,880
Speaker 4: I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

226
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,439
Speaker 2: Megan's very excited. We're both very excited. But Megan's the

227
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:52,439
Speaker 2: one who told me about you.

228
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,360
Speaker 3: I'm a Marlene fangirl. So a stand.

229
00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 2: Some might say, so you are psychologist, educator, you're an author,

230
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,720
Speaker 2: you're a director of an organization. You've run all kinds

231
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,600
Speaker 2: of survivor oriented things. Can you start off by telling

232
00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,600
Speaker 2: us what your own religious background is?

233
00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,920
Speaker 3: So we have some context for who you are, Okay.

234
00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:20,880
Speaker 4: I was born into a Christian family, evangelical fundamentalist Christian family.

235
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,440
Speaker 4: My parents were missionaries with the Assemblies of God. I

236
00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,640
Speaker 4: grew up overseas in Taiwan because that they were doing

237
00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,320
Speaker 4: missionary work in Taiwan. And then as a teenager, I

238
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,880
Speaker 4: became very devout myself. I went to a Christian boarding school.

239
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,280
Speaker 4: I became oh, what you might call it Jesus freak.

240
00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,720
Speaker 4: And then we moved to southern California for after we

241
00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,720
Speaker 4: were in Taiwan, and the Jesus movement was going on there,

242
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,680
Speaker 4: starting up Christian rock and baptizing people at the beach

243
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,120
Speaker 4: and believing that Jesus was coming back any day. And

244
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,640
Speaker 4: the Pentecostal version of that is also speaking in tongues

245
00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,160
Speaker 4: and healings and you know, supernatural things like that.

246
00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,240
Speaker 3: So we're doing that, You were speaking tongues and such.

247
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,079
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, so you're having these very heightened religious

248
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,360
Speaker 2: experiences then, yeah.

249
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,960
Speaker 1: It sounds like you were on a zero to ten basis.

250
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 1: You were at a ten on your level of devoutness.

251
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I studied the Bible and I read lots

252
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,040
Speaker 4: of other religious books and yeah, I was into it.

253
00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:23,080
Speaker 3: So what changed.

254
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,000
Speaker 4: Well, I've always been also rather intellectual, reading a lot

255
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,200
Speaker 4: and studying and wanting to believe the truth and not

256
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,760
Speaker 4: just be comfortable. So, you know, I studied a lot

257
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,480
Speaker 4: of things, and towards the end of the last couple

258
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,720
Speaker 4: of years of high school, I was in southern California,

259
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,280
Speaker 4: and so I wasn't as immersed in the religion. So

260
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,760
Speaker 4: I took classes at school, like in existentialism or English

261
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,440
Speaker 4: literature and things like that, and just started to think

262
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,560
Speaker 4: outside the box a little bit. And then going off

263
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,439
Speaker 4: to college, I went to a secular college, University of California, Irvine,

264
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,800
Speaker 4: and that was when my world just started opening up.

265
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:06,319
Speaker 4: And I learned about the Bible, the origins of it,

266
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,360
Speaker 4: and started to not believe it was the word of God.

267
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,319
Speaker 4: And that's a very big piece, right, because I had

268
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,520
Speaker 4: been taught that it was the word of God, every

269
00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,000
Speaker 4: word dictated, So there was that, and then also just

270
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:26,960
Speaker 4: taking classes in psychology, anthropology, history, arts, you know, and

271
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:32,079
Speaker 4: also meeting other people that were not Christian, that were

272
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,640
Speaker 4: not crazy or stupid or evil, who had alternative points

273
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:40,120
Speaker 4: of view, alternative worldviews, and then also getting a little

274
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,360
Speaker 4: fed up with the church in that it was still

275
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,960
Speaker 4: very patriarchal. I was also becoming more of a feminist.

276
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,559
Speaker 4: I just described my leaving as a combination of pushes

277
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,679
Speaker 4: and polls, because some of those things were pushing me out,

278
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,680
Speaker 4: and then polls were the new things in the world, where,

279
00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,960
Speaker 4: you know, I became less afraid of being in the world.

280
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 3: Right, That's a good way to describe it. I've never

281
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:03,400
Speaker 3: heard it described that way.

282
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,920
Speaker 1: There's something interesting that you said, which was that you

283
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 1: realize that people in the world weren't crazy or stupid.

284
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,720
Speaker 1: I also like in your book, though, how you say

285
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,240
Speaker 1: people who are fundamentalists also aren't crazy or stupid, which

286
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,880
Speaker 1: I think is an interesting point to remember when we

287
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,200
Speaker 1: think about how people get into these and how hard

288
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,760
Speaker 1: it is. Were you empowered by leaving and also shattered,

289
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,720
Speaker 1: and how did you start to find other people who

290
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,400
Speaker 1: felt the same experience.

291
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 4: Well, it took place over a period of years. You know,

292
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,880
Speaker 4: you have to kind of realize that because for a

293
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,760
Speaker 4: long time I really hung on because it was emotionally

294
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 4: really important to me. To lose Jesus in my life

295
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,040
Speaker 4: was a pretty big loss. So I tried really hard,

296
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 4: Like I remember even writing a paper sort of explaining

297
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,360
Speaker 4: problems with the theology, you know, sending people to hell

298
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 4: that's a pretty big problem, or considering everybody to be

299
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,640
Speaker 4: basically bad original stand finding out more about the early

300
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 4: Church and how the Bible was put together, you know,

301
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:10,680
Speaker 4: just gradually absorbing all these areas of information just made

302
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,960
Speaker 4: it pretty imperative to leave. And yeah, it was it

303
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,840
Speaker 4: was hard, but also really liberating. And you know, like

304
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,480
Speaker 4: talking to a group of Buddhists, for example, that we're

305
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,520
Speaker 4: experiencing what we call the fruits of the spirit, that

306
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,040
Speaker 4: we labeled as fruits of the spirit you love, joy, peace, understanding.

307
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,760
Speaker 4: I mean, we were taught that those were the consequences

308
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 4: of being a Christian right. We had a monopoly on that,

309
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,880
Speaker 4: and other people were sad and unhappy about their lives

310
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,480
Speaker 4: and fearful and all that because they're not believers, and

311
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,400
Speaker 4: feeling sorry for them. And then to find out, you know,

312
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,080
Speaker 4: as I was getting more educated and more open to

313
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,520
Speaker 4: talking to other people, to find out that they weren't

314
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,200
Speaker 4: necessarily sad or hopeless.

315
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,440
Speaker 2: It's so interesting to me because you know, there's a

316
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,800
Speaker 2: growing religious right faction in America at the moment, and

317
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,760
Speaker 2: there's this big talking point that education is indoctrinating people,

318
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,800
Speaker 2: and maybe indoctrinating people.

319
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,240
Speaker 3: Doctrination, yeah, yeah, yeah, but.

320
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,520
Speaker 2: It's but education is the opposite of indoctrination, right, Information

321
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,080
Speaker 2: is how we actually get out of indoctrination, but it's

322
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,920
Speaker 2: marketed that way. And I can imagine somebody listening to

323
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,600
Speaker 2: this and being like, oh, she went to college and

324
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,720
Speaker 2: then the liberal you know, brainwashing happened to her and

325
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,760
Speaker 2: that's why she left Christianity.

326
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,720
Speaker 3: But nay, I say no, it was.

327
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,840
Speaker 4: The opposite is, you know, giving more information so that

328
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,640
Speaker 4: there's more more choice, you know, So it all really

329
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:43,960
Speaker 4: had to make sense to me. It wasn't enough for

330
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,760
Speaker 4: it to just be emotionally comforting. So when there were

331
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 4: so many problems with it, I had to I had

332
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 4: to give it up. And I also had a relationship

333
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,000
Speaker 4: with a boyfriend and had this relationship, real relationship, in

334
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,000
Speaker 4: real time, you know, it helped my dependence on God.

335
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,120
Speaker 2: Right, So, how did you come to associate trauma with

336
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,200
Speaker 2: religion and did you feel like you yourself had religious trauma?

337
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,200
Speaker 4: Well, early on, I wrote a paper. I was mostly

338
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,240
Speaker 4: just journaling, but I ended up sitting at my typewriter

339
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,239
Speaker 4: and writing about what I thought the consequences were of

340
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:23,560
Speaker 4: having a fundamental stupbringing, and just started going through all

341
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,800
Speaker 4: the effects of it all, and it was kind of shocking,

342
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,159
Speaker 4: and I ended up presenting that as a paper at

343
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,760
Speaker 4: a conference, and then eventually evolved into the book and

344
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,399
Speaker 4: gradually realized that there's so much damage done. I didn't

345
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,040
Speaker 4: call it trauma originally in my book. My book came

346
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,560
Speaker 4: out in ninety four, Leaving the Fold, and at the

347
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,960
Speaker 4: time I was just trying to list all of the

348
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,760
Speaker 4: areas of damage and then some steps towards healing. And

349
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,679
Speaker 4: by the time I was finished writing the book, I

350
00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,560
Speaker 4: realized that it was more pervasive than I ever realized,

351
00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,560
Speaker 4: so that I considered it to be a traumatic experience,

352
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,000
Speaker 4: given all the individual things that added up. The lack

353
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,400
Speaker 4: of self esteem, the lack of self respect, the lack

354
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,639
Speaker 4: of relationships with the other normal human beings, the fear

355
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 4: about the world, about the afterlife, all these things that

356
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,400
Speaker 4: are the results of indoctrination, really add up to trauma,

357
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:29,640
Speaker 4: and trauma. The word itself really just means injury. It's

358
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,679
Speaker 4: not a very esoteric word. It's a medical word that

359
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,640
Speaker 4: means injury, and it can be a cut in your

360
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,240
Speaker 4: finger as a trauma to your body. But you consider

361
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,919
Speaker 4: all these different cuts in all these different areas I

362
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 4: mentioned collectively being a traumatic kind of experience, so that

363
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,639
Speaker 4: in twenty eleven I ended up deciding to call it

364
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,440
Speaker 4: religious trauma syndrome RTS and wrote about that and all

365
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,440
Speaker 4: these individual things, all these individual experiences as just being

366
00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,679
Speaker 4: religious trauma experiences.

367
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,879
Speaker 2: Clarify something really quick, because I love clarity. Trauma is

368
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 2: not events. Trauma is the emotional response that we have

369
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,560
Speaker 2: two events. It's a persistent emotional reaction. Not everyone is

370
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 2: going to have that same response to the same events,

371
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,560
Speaker 2: and even those events are often interpreted and experienced very,

372
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 2: very differently. We've talked about it in other episodes with

373
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,200
Speaker 2: psychologists and trauma experts, but I just want to say

374
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,680
Speaker 2: it one more time. Experiencing pain, discomfort, and difficulty does

375
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 2: not necessarily inherently lead to trauma, and of course if

376
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,399
Speaker 2: it does, it doesn't mean it's going to last forever.

377
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:34,880
Speaker 3: We were just talking.

378
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,640
Speaker 2: About this because these are descriptions of types of experiences

379
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,400
Speaker 2: that can be traumatic, and we're discussing it because it's

380
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,240
Speaker 2: important to have a framework for why someone might feel

381
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 2: so messed up over their former religious beliefs. It's really

382
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 2: important to have that conversation, but also make sure we're

383
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 2: not talking about it as though anyone who's been in

384
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 2: a religion that shaped the way that they are today,

385
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,400
Speaker 2: maybe in some negative ways, they're not necessarily all going

386
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:00,240
Speaker 2: to be traumat.

387
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 1: To name it is half of healing it. It's so

388
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 1: hard to know what a problem is until it has

389
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:05,360
Speaker 1: a name.

390
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 3: So if you'll name it, you can tame it.

391
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 1: You can tame it. I'm just forever grateful for you

392
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 1: for naming that.

393
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,160
Speaker 3: Can you define it for us? What is religious trauma syndrome? Exactly?

394
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 4: I define it as the collection of symptoms that you

395
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,959
Speaker 4: have that are the result of two things. One is

396
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 4: the effect of living in an environment with toxic religious

397
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 4: beliefs and practices, which have to do with the way

398
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 4: that you are raised to live in the world and

399
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 4: often isolated. You don't learn about a lot of areas.

400
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 4: There's homeschooling, there's other ways that parents keep children in

401
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 4: the dark about huge areas of knowledge, science and psychology

402
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,679
Speaker 4: and literature. Sex, yeah, sex and the practices. I'm purity

403
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 4: culture would be one of the practices peral punishment and

404
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 4: the hierarchy of the patriarchy, you know, the way families

405
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 4: are formed and the way women are subjugated. So all

406
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:16,199
Speaker 4: these practices and teachings go into the experience that cumulatively

407
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,880
Speaker 4: amounts to trauma. As experience that takes place over years.

408
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,639
Speaker 4: Then that might be called complex PTSD, right, you know,

409
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,240
Speaker 4: because it's many, many different things over a period of

410
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 4: time instead of just one incident. But then secondarily, there's

411
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 4: also the experience of leaving, which is a traumatic kind

412
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 4: of experience because you lose the basis of your philosophy of.

413
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 3: Life, reality itself, and.

414
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 4: You move from one reality to another. And it's dramatic

415
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 4: because the religion defined everything, that defined who you are,

416
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 4: what your life is about, your career, your relationships, your

417
00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 4: ideas about the future, your ideas about the afterlife, of

418
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 4: just about everything.

419
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 3: Meaning it meets every need.

420
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So you get the rug ripped out from

421
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 4: under you and you have to go through all of

422
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,360
Speaker 4: the experience of loss, the anger, the depression, the feelings

423
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 4: of not knowing what to do, lack of meaning. Then you're,

424
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 4: you know, in the stage of needing to reconstruct.

425
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 1: People are raised outside of strict religious views really have

426
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: no concept of the weight of what growing up, what

427
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 1: that really does to your psyche. As a child, I

428
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 1: always thought the rapture was coming. I never really planned

429
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: to become an adult. That never really occurred to me,

430
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 1: like the world was going to end any day, So

431
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 1: why would I plan to be an adult? Or just

432
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 1: the pure fear of like a literal, eternal hell for

433
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 1: a little kid, Like if you process getting told the

434
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 1: story of Santa which we didn't really get, but you

435
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: believe in it as a kid. You believe what people

436
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 1: parents tell you as a kid. So if somebody's telling

437
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: you there's an eternal lake of fire that everyone's going

438
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: to burn in forever, that's the opposite of Santa Claus.

439
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: And you're trying to live your life like a normal

440
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:22,880
Speaker 1: person while under this immense eternal punishment. It's very complicated,

441
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: and I want like some outreach from people who were

442
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: raised like this, from people who aren't, because I've had

443
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: so many boyfriends where I'm like I'm scared of Helen'm

444
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: like skim scared, and they're like, Hell's not real ready.

445
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,239
Speaker 3: I'm like, thank you, helpful, I get it, But like

446
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 3: you know, it is just a whole different world. It's

447
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 3: like Game of Thrones world that were raised in.

448
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 4: And the thing is when you're little, and you get

449
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 4: these ideas from when you're really small, and usually people

450
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 4: can remember being taught ideas of hell way back to

451
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 4: when they were like four or five years old, which

452
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 4: is when you're old enough to process the ideas. You're

453
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 4: not old enough to have some critical thinking about it, right,

454
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 4: And you also are not offered any options, any choices,

455
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 4: you know, for other beliefs you believe because of your

456
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 4: free will. But that's not really true, right, It's not

457
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 4: your free will. When you're too young to even think

458
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 4: it through and you're surrounded by people that believe a

459
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 4: certain thing and the consequences for not believing are really severe,

460
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 4: that's not exactly free choice, and you have no real defense. Right.

461
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 2: In Mormonism, the age that you decide whether to get

462
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: baptized is eight.

463
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 3: Uh huh, well that seems fair. A year old, know

464
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 3: what's up? You've lived eight summers? Figure it out.

465
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 2: I remember because they ask you like do you believe?

466
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 2: Do you really want this? And I remember like searching

467
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 2: in my soul and being like, well I have to,

468
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 2: I mean, do I feel super super strongly.

469
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I have to of course.

470
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I have like it wasn't coming for me.

471
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: It was like if I don't do.

472
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 3: This, family will be pissed.

473
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I did also believe in it, but it

474
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 2: wasn't with like the fervor that you know they say

475
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: that you allegedly have at there.

476
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: Or that it probably looked like that you had from

477
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: the outside, right, you know, adults are like looking at

478
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: all the kids doing it and being like, look at them,

479
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: they love it.

480
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 4: Right.

481
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 3: Yeah.

482
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 2: Something you wrote in here, which maybe comes from something

483
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 2: mar Len had written, I think is really interesting. You

484
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 2: were going to ask how does faith cut us off

485
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 2: from our gut instincts and feelings? And when I think

486
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: back to that time, that is what was happening, because

487
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 2: I was like, no, I have to have faith.

488
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: I can't like, whatever questions.

489
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 2: May arise or whatever doubt might be there, I can't

490
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 2: deal with that because then I'm not being faithful. And

491
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 2: then that does teach you and prime you to not

492
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 2: listen to what you actually think or feel or believe

493
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: or are questioning.

494
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 4: And I assay to people, you know, did your parents

495
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 4: ever sit you down and present a whole array of options?

496
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 4: For you. Did they explain Christianity and Islam and Judaism

497
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 4: and also humanism and narcissism and give you a free

498
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 4: choice of well, which one sounds good to you? Little

499
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 4: eight year old?

500
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 2: Atheists and agnostics were like a bad word, and my

501
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: household was like, yeah, technically this is a choice for you,

502
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: but those are the sinners, not a real choice, Yeah,

503
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: for sure.

504
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 1: The like being taught that all your power and all

505
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: the answers are from a like authoritarian concept outside of yourself,

506
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: and that your gut instincts and feelings mean nothing is terrifying.

507
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 2: Growing up in these circumstances don't inherently lead to PTSD.

508
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 2: Everyone kind of responds to them differently. So how do

509
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 2: you identify whether you're someone who has trauma versus someone

510
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 2: who doesn't.

511
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 4: I don't think it's that either or a thing. I

512
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 4: think it's more of a continuum like PTSD. Actually, you know,

513
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 4: sometimes it depends how severely you were affected by It

514
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 4: depends on various values, It depends on your temperament. Children

515
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 4: are different to begin with when they're born in how

516
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 4: they process information and how emotionally sensitive they are, So

517
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 4: it depends on you as your personality. It depends on

518
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 4: the way that your parents handle it. Do your parents

519
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 4: preach at you or are they severe with punishment? Do

520
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 4: they do all these things, you know, in a severe

521
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 4: kind of way. And also the particular church that you

522
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 4: go to, the type of pastor you have, did you

523
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 4: go to youth group, you know, what kinds of experiences

524
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 4: did you have, So it can vary quite a lot.

525
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 4: And also you can have consequences that you're not really

526
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 4: aware of, like, for example, not being able to be

527
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 4: really creative and trust your own instincts and develop your

528
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 4: own voice, develop as a human being. So it's like

529
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 4: this truncated development in a lot of different areas intellectually, socially,

530
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 4: you know, knowing how to make friends and be with

531
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 4: people that are different, being able to think outside the box,

532
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 4: being able to pursue your own career goals without being

533
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 4: worried that you're not fulfilling God's will. I mean, you're

534
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 4: taught as a child you're supposed to find God's will

535
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 4: and have all that anxiety.

536
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, making a decision for me is impossible, and I've

537
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: been out of this way of thinking for half my life.

538
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: But it's like that part of my brain is just offline.

539
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 3: What's happening when that happens.

540
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: You know, Like I'm scared of flying, so my choice

541
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: to not take a flight gives me a head of

542
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: dopamine and relief. So when I don't make a decision,

543
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: I get that same relief. People with religious trauma have

544
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 1: trouble making decisions.

545
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 4: That's an example. You don't have self confidence, you have

546
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 4: your vulnerability to assess situations I see, and you don't

547
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 4: have the worldview to think about that. You know, like,

548
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 4: we don't know anything for sure. Right when we make

549
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 4: a decision, we just use our best judgment.

550
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 3: Right.

551
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 4: If you don't think you have good judgment, because that's

552
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 4: that's what you were taught, then it's hard to it's

553
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 4: hard to reach within your own inner resources to do that.

554
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 4: You're taught that you're empty. You're empty. And if you

555
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 4: do go your own way and make your own decisions

556
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 4: and not can soul God's will, then it's called pride.

557
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: And that's from being in any sort of authoritarian dynamic

558
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: where you are not the person at the top who

559
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: is giving the direction.

560
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: Right.

561
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: I mean that can come from like if you're in

562
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: a religion that doesn't have an authoritarian structure that might

563
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: not have the same effect.

564
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 4: Right, you're not okay and you're not safe are a

565
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 4: couple of the assumptions that go very deep and can

566
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 4: be very unconscious.

567
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: Right, I'm a sinner, I'm going to sin. Someone's going

568
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 2: to tempt me to send just this total distrust of

569
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: like inherent okayness and goodness.

570
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 4: And you always end up blaming yourself for not being

571
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 4: able to stay on track. And every time, even though

572
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 4: you've rededicated and everything's all a hunky doory with God again,

573
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 4: you still will do things that you consider sins, and

574
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 4: therefore it's like falling off the wagon, and here you

575
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 4: are back in the same sinful state. Some of that, actually,

576
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 4: you know, can last after you left the religion, and

577
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 4: the problem is you don't have the same mechanisms to

578
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 4: make it better. You don't have the prayer and repentance

579
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 4: and rededication to help you if you've given up the religion.

580
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 4: It depends on how serious your religion was for you,

581
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 4: but there can often be of time after leaving when

582
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 4: you're really struggling, really struggling to.

583
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: Find Our producer wanted to know that some of the

584
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: research that you did was and who you kind of

585
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 2: interacted with for that.

586
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 4: It was not a controlled empirical study. It was mainly

587
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 4: just anecdotal data, which is biographical. I was in practice

588
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 4: as a psychologist and I started noticing some of these

589
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 4: patterns with my clients. So I interviewed my clients and

590
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 4: then I just interviewed anybody and everybody that I could

591
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 4: find to just have them tell me their religious experience

592
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 4: and go from there. And that's where I found the patterns.

593
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 4: So it was a qualitative kind of study rather than

594
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 4: you know, a strict quantitative sort of thing. There needs

595
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 4: to be more, a lot more information and a lot

596
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 4: more study. It's just so difficult as a research topic,

597
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 4: like a lot of other things are. You know, it's

598
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 4: hard to do to get the actual data. And then

599
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 4: you also find these other studies like that claim that

600
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 4: religion helps people a lot and if you're religious, are

601
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 4: going to be happier and more satisfied with life. And

602
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 4: parenting comes into play here. People ask, well, I've left

603
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 4: the faith, but now how do I be a good parent?

604
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 4: How do I raise my child? And I think that

605
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 4: it's completely different. You're not going to assume that your

606
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 4: child is basically evil and wrong, And just because your

607
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 4: child colors on the wall doesn't make them a sinner.

608
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 4: There's such a thing as child development. There's such a

609
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 4: thing as good parenting, where you are helping a child

610
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 4: find out who they are and express themselves and trust themselves.

611
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 4: It's interesting how people as parents will sometimes learn so

612
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 4: much about themselves, you know, as you do that for

613
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 4: a child. But even if you're not a parent, you

614
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 4: can think about that, think about what sort of parenting

615
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 4: would make sense to help you fully develop as a creative, loving,

616
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 4: sexual being that you know confunction in life and in

617
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 4: the world. What kind of parenting, and then you do

618
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 4: that reparenting of yourself, this whole relationship with self. You know,

619
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 4: I use the inner child as a metaphor because part

620
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 4: of you is still like a little child and always

621
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 4: will be. You're not trying to force your in a

622
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 4: child to grow up. You're finding her and taking care

623
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 4: of her because you also have you're inner adult. You're

624
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 4: in an adult. It's like your wise self, the wise woman.

625
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 4: It gives you a way of relating to yourself and

626
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 4: then taking care of yourself, do the things for yourself

627
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 4: that you wish your parents had done right. It's not

628
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 4: too late. It's not too late. You can still develop that.

629
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: I do love that. It's so empowering. I think it

630
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 2: can be so easy to fall into. Oh I didn't

631
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 2: get the childhood that was, you know, nurturing or healthy

632
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: or loving the way I wanted to.

633
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 3: So I'm so I'm fucked. You know, that's it? Like

634
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 3: now I just damage forever. But you can.

635
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: Nurture yourself and reparent yourself and find new community that's

636
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: healthier and can kind of help you.

637
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: I think Marlen, Yeah, Marlene's had an adopt yourself.

638
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 3: I think I read you say at one Yeah.

639
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 4: When I do retreat, so we do guided visualizations sometimes,

640
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 4: and one of them is to imagine yourself like a

641
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 4: social worker and going into this home that you used

642
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 4: to live in and rescuing the child and bringing that

643
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 4: child out and taking her home and letting her live

644
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 4: with you instead, and realizing that your parents are done.

645
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 4: You know, they had their chance. You can stop going

646
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 4: there and stop trying to get them to do what

647
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 4: they're not going to do, and do it yourself.

648
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: I like that you said something about how it's easier

649
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: to let go cognitively than it is emotionally, I feel

650
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: like both of us. What you're saying is like, I

651
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: know rationally that this isn't real, But emotionally, like I said,

652
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: I have trouble making decisions. I have trouble like there's

653
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: just this entity living in my brain that's very judgmental,

654
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: that's God from my childhood. That it's just hard to

655
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: emotionally let that go. What do you advise your clients

656
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: to do to get to the next level with that.

657
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 4: Well, realize that religion has affected you in a very

658
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 4: holistic way. It's also affected your body, you know, so

659
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 4: that you can have these visceral, bodily reactions. Your trauma

660
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 4: gets stored in the body, and so you know, to

661
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 4: understand something about trauma, the sympathetic nervous system, and the

662
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 4: perison pathetic and work with your body for one thing,

663
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 4: you know, like when you get anxious, when you feel

664
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 4: some of those fears, to notice what's going on in

665
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 4: your body and learn some techniques for relaxation. Because when

666
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 4: your body is totally relaxed, you don't feel anxious. And

667
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 4: so sometimes instead of trying not to feel anxious, which

668
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 4: is kind of hard.

669
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 3: It doesn't work, kind of testing.

670
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 4: You go the other direction, and you simply work with

671
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 4: your body, work with breathing techniques, you work with muscle relaxation,

672
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 4: and you talk to yourself in a comforting way, and

673
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: you realize something that there's something I call felt true,

674
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 4: and that is that sometimes you can think something like, oh,

675
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 4: there's going to be a raptor and it's going to

676
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 4: happen any day now, and you're in your bed with

677
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 4: your covers over your head, and it feels it feels true,

678
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 4: which doesn't make it true. That's really important to realize.

679
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 4: And so people all the time talk about having some

680
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 4: cognitive understanding of leaving their religion, but then in their

681
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 4: gut there's this contradiction. There's these fears that come up.

682
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 4: There's even attitudes come up, you know, like being homophobic

683
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 4: or being misogynists. You know, you even have leftovers, so

684
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 4: you can have all sorts of leftovers.

685
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: Right, which sucks because we were taught not to trust

686
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: our gut and we were taught not to trust our feelings.

687
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: But all of a sudden, the feelings in the gut

688
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: that's been hijinked is what we're trusting.

689
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 3: It's so backwards, right.

690
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: It alters your instinct and intuition, so that it's like,

691
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 2: you do need to learn to trust it, but you

692
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 2: also need to get the bullshit.

693
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 4: The Yeah, realize that just because you feel an emotion

694
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 4: doesn't mean it's true. It's like a little kid in

695
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 4: bed thinking there's a monster under the bed. Yeah. You know,

696
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 4: if that little kid is thinking there's a monster in

697
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 4: the bed and thinks that's true, it's going to be

698
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 4: very frightening, right, Yeah. But being frightened and thinking there's

699
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 4: a monster does not make it true. Right. So that's

700
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 4: actually a really really helpful thought, a very functional thought,

701
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 4: to realize that there's such a thing as a felt

702
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 4: truth just because it feels true or just because so

703
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 4: many people are saying it.

704
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

705
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: That's the one difference between just a normal PTSD abusive

706
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: situation is that people are like, don't go back to it.

707
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 3: But with this society is like, go back to back.

708
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 3: This is what keeps you safe.

709
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 1: And happy and whatever. So that's an important distinction.

710
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: Do you think it's Christianity, like the umbrella of Christianity

711
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 2: in general versus Eastern religions or other frameworks.

712
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 4: Well, Christianity is so big, yeah, you know, it permeates

713
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 4: the society and so for that reason, it gets off,

714
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 4: it gets away with a lot of things that don't

715
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 4: get examined. Yeah, you know, like for sample, being helpless.

716
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 4: Let's say, you know, talk let's talk about this from

717
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 4: a society point of view. This religion teaches you that

718
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 4: you're not a source, right, You're not really a source

719
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 4: of action and decision making or creativity. I mean this

720
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 4: affects people in the arts as well. How do you

721
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 4: flourish in the arts if you don't really have confidence

722
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 4: in your own ability to express yourself or that you

723
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:28,439
Speaker 4: have something to say. So let's say, you know, you're

724
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 4: talking about this feeling of being helpless, right, you were

725
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 4: taught that you don't have anything within you to offer,

726
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 4: and if you do, it's probably a bad thing. What

727
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 4: does that do to a democracy? What does that do

728
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 4: to a society where we're everybody is supposed to be

729
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 4: stepping up to take part, right, that's what makes it

730
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 4: a democracy. Instead, you know, you talk about poverty or

731
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 4: global warming or any big issue like that, and people

732
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 4: very often will express helplessness.

733
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 3: Thoughts in prayer, you know, just thoughts and prayers. That's it.

734
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 2: Well, it's in God's hands, Yeah, God will do whatever

735
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: God wants to do.

736
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: Just the sick, sick notion of like we don't need

737
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: to take care of the planet because Jesus is about

738
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: to come back.

739
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 3: This is a good thing because the world is ending.

740
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's literally like a huge problem.

741
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 4: Yeah. I actually wrote a paper. I don't know if

742
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 4: you've seen it. I wrote a paper that was published

743
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 4: on collective trauma, the collective trauma of religion. And that's

744
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 4: when we're talking about stuff like that, you know, Like

745
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 4: and early on, I remember as I was starting to

746
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 4: leave the faith, and the pastor in the church I

747
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 4: went to was all happy about some war going on

748
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 4: in the Middle East, Oh my God, because it was

749
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 4: going to be a sign.

750
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 3: Of the end. So crazy, it's so sick.

751
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 4: People do the same thing. I mean, what about like

752
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 4: with the pandemic, right, you know, and not taking responsibility

753
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 4: for that or not. But the biggest thing right now

754
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 4: is the danger to the earth environmentally. Yeah, and how

755
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 4: there's this massive lack of responsibility. But my point was

756
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 4: really the fact that most people feel pretty helpless when

757
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 4: it comes to making any sort of difference. Yes, you know,

758
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 4: and the most they can think of is to help

759
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 4: at a soup kitchen somewhere on Thanksgiving. That's about as

760
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 4: far as they can think about it.

761
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: Well, Interestingly, I don't feel like that's true of Mormonism,

762
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 2: because I do feel like Mormons are encouraged to like

763
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 2: have skills and talents and vote and be a part

764
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: of the world, but it is to be in service

765
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: of the religion.

766
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 3: You know, you do have an individual identity.

767
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: You are effective, you know, you many Mormons are very

768
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 2: ambitious and successful, but it is ultimately like it is

769
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 2: supposed to be to further the religion.

770
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I hear what you're saying, and there are Christians

771
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 4: that are active too, But there's still the idea of

772
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 4: end times. You know, that the world is coming to

773
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 4: an end.

774
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 3: For sure, for sure. I mean I definitely thought that

775
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 3: was immage and so.

776
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 4: You know, with Mormons, you're trying to get mourns into

777
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 4: political positions of power and you know, help the world.

778
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 4: But there's still this idea that it's all going to

779
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 4: end up with Jesus coming back and God's going to

780
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:26,479
Speaker 4: work it out.

781
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

782
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 4: God, it's going to be a final churchment and everything's

783
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 4: going to get worked out.

784
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 3: That is very true. That is very true.

785
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like there can be this like illusion

786
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 2: of individual effectiveness, but ultimately like it is to make

787
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: Jesus come back in the world end.

788
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 3: So yeah, speaking.

789
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: Of just like the culture and society and government, how

790
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: does our culture and society and government enable unhealthy religions

791
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 2: to continue to harm people?

792
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 4: Well, for one thing, they get their churches aren't taxed.

793
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 4: They don't have to pay any taxes, which is outrageous.

794
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 4: And the Mormon Church, speaking of the Mormon Church having

795
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 4: billions of dollars, that's quite the money making machine. Yeah,

796
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 4: and you know, requiring the tithing that.

797
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,439
Speaker 3: It does for sure.

798
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's enabled just by all these mechanisms. It's enabled

799
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 4: inrudes and education attrudes, in the criminal justice system, and

800
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 4: the criminal just system considers people guilty or not guilty. Right,

801
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,959
Speaker 4: it's pretty black and white, and it's not about rehabilitation.

802
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 4: It's about warehousing people that we don't like and getting vengeance.

803
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 4: And if that isn't pal, I don't know what is.

804
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 2: Obviously, freedom of religion isn't incredibly crucial and important and imperative,

805
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 2: but it does seem to result often also in there

806
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 2: being a total blind eye turned to when religious organizations

807
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 2: are actually harming people.

808
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's important to just note that this

809
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: will probably be one of the most traumatic experiences of

810
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 1: people's lives. Deconstructing a religious feel there's that double bind

811
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: first of like, you have to start questioning in order

812
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: to leave, but questioning means.

813
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 3: You're going to hell.

814
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: So there's this very already built in obstacle to it.

815
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: But when somebody does start questioning, what are your first

816
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: tips to them or what do you suggest that they

817
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: first do in order to make this a little bit

818
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: more containable, even though it's totally normal that it's probably

819
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: going to be one of the worst things. Let me

820
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: rephrase that one of the most most growth orienting.

821
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes? What was deceptive? Disruptive?

822
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 1: Yeah?

823
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 4: Just the idea of trusting yourself, trusting yourself and and

824
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 4: looking at the evidence. And you notice that we do

825
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 4: that in other areas of life, you know, we test

826
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 4: things to find out if they're true or not. Why

827
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 4: not religion?

828
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 3: Right?

829
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 4: You know, in all areas of science, the reason we

830
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 4: can put a person on the moon is because we've

831
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 4: done an enormous amount of testing and questioning and finding

832
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 4: out what works and what doesn't work. Why not religion

833
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 4: and your brain. If you want to start with something religious.

834
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 4: God gave you a brain, I wrong to use it.

835
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: I remember seeing once like brain scans of somebody thinking

836
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: about a puppy or like love essentially, and they're two

837
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 1: completely different, like one is a very fractured, not well

838
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 1: thinking brain and the other one is a cohesive whole.

839
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: And that really made an impact on me of this

840
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: is not what our creator, I'm using quotations or whatever,

841
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: meant for us to be thinking about with our brains,

842
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 1: because is so destructive to our brains.

843
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 4: To trust some of the natural ideas that you have.

844
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 4: You know, small children will when they find out about hell.

845
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 4: A lot of times we'll say that doesn't seem fair

846
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 4: to punish people forever. That seems so mean. We're loving God.

847
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 4: God God loves us, and then he's going to allow

848
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 4: that that doesn't seem fair. I remember thinking that myself

849
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 4: as a child, and then after that you get convinced that, yes,

850
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 4: that's how it is. I am. But let's go back

851
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 4: to what some of the natural instincts are that we have,

852
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 4: you know, and instincts that weish, and instincts that you

853
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 4: should love everybody, not just certain people you know, so

854
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 4: start trusting your own intuition, your own instincts.

855
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 2: You know, Steve hasen I assume you know Steve Jarna

856
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 2: was talking to us, or maybe I've just heard him

857
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 2: talk about this in general, about like who were you

858
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 2: before the cult? What were you interested in? And you know,

859
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: when you grow up in a religion, you can't find

860
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 2: that because you never had a different experience. But a

861
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 2: version of that could be what you're talking about, which

862
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 2: is like, what was my first thought about that versus

863
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 2: you know, even if my behavior had to conform to

864
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: what the church wanted, what did I actually think in

865
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 2: that moment? And maybe that is the true, the truer

866
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 2: version of me that I can, you know, hold on to.

867
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 2: You wrote it is not possible to live with no

868
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 2: structure or meaning whatsoever. Can we talk about meaning for

869
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 2: a second, because I think you know kind of what

870
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 2: you were saying, like cognitively we can understand rationally like

871
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: this isn't true. I get it, I see the evidence

872
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 2: it's there, but then you still feel it. And I

873
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: think so much of it has to do with like

874
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 2: all of my meaning was here and if I don't

875
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 2: have this meaning anymore, then what do I have, And

876
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 2: there's no there's nothing to like emotionally grasp onto. Have

877
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: you seen anything that's been effective for people in terms

878
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: of like finding new sources of meaning in their lives

879
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 2: and what is meaning?

880
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 4: Well, I think it is important to deconstruct the whole

881
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 4: idea of meaning. You think about what what you're talking

882
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 4: about there? You know, because in the religion you have

883
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 4: meaning handed to you on a silver platter. You didn't

884
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 4: do anything, you didn't take any responsibility, you didn't do

885
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 4: anything to create meaning in your life. You were handed

886
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 4: this idea that you were supposed to be in God's army,

887
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 4: on the side of good, believing in God and fighting

888
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 4: for the kingdom, and that gives you meaning in life. Well,

889
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 4: maybe it's not like that. Maybe it's if that's not true,

890
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 4: if you've given that idea up, you know that you're

891
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 4: not getting ready for armageddon or anything like that, then

892
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 4: what are you living for? And to let go of

893
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 4: the idea that there is a of a source of meaning,

894
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 4: a one kind of meaning in your life. Maybe it's multiple,

895
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 4: Maybe it's more like a mosaic. That's the way I

896
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 4: like to describe it. You know, you have multiple things

897
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 4: in your life that when you engage in them, when

898
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 4: you commit to them, they produce meaning. Like let's say

899
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:12,479
Speaker 4: you find work that is satisfying to you, right, don't

900
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 4: just do any job. Find work that's satisfying, Yeah, spend

901
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,919
Speaker 4: time investing in relationships that means something to you. They

902
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:26,720
Speaker 4: produce meaning. So you have this pattern of multiple sources

903
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 4: of meaning, right, you know, because meaning is not something

904
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 4: that you chase after directly. It's like happiness, you know,

905
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:39,919
Speaker 4: you can't chase after it. It comes from making commitments

906
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 4: and engaging with things that are fulfilling to you, and

907
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 4: it just arises out of that. So in a way,

908
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 4: it's a non question. It's like the way that Christians

909
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 4: produce questions that don't have answers because the questions themselves

910
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 4: aren't right, you know, like, oh, what's going to happen

911
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 4: to you after you die? Maybe that's not a question

912
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 4: that needs to be asked. Maybe the question has more

913
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 4: to do with what will you do with your life

914
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 4: right now? Right? What are you going to do with

915
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,320
Speaker 4: this glorious life? The fact that you are alive and well,

916
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 4: right now? What are you doing with that? Right? It

917
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 4: doesn't you know, worrying about what's going to happen later

918
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:26,280
Speaker 4: is like a non question.

919
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 3: Yeah there's no answer.

920
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no answer, And it's a waste of time

921
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 4: to spend a lot of anxiety on it, right right,

922
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 4: because what does it? Where does it get you? Right? So,

923
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 4: how about if we focus on what's now right?

924
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 2: What makes you feel something? What makes you feel fulfilled?

925
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: Is it helping others? Is it making art? Is it

926
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 2: being in nature?

927
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 4: Is it?

928
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 3: You know?

929
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: It's just so frustrating though that, like, people who were

930
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: raised like this already have the depression built into them

931
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 1: that makes that so hard to do, come against so

932
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: much that living like that is just already really really hard.

933
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: So I feel so deeply for myself, just kidding, but

934
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 1: for you and me and for everyone who was raised

935
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 1: that like has this inherent block to what you're saying

936
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:23,760
Speaker 1: built into the system.

937
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 4: Well, you've been told a million times that all those

938
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 4: things aren't good enough. It's say you have a job

939
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 4: that you love, Well, that's not enough. You have a

940
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 4: loving relationship with somebody you care about deeply, Well that's

941
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 4: not enough, because love and God is better than that.

942
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 4: You're in music, you make music, you write songs, and

943
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 4: that's not good enough either, because this music of heaven

944
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 4: is so much better. You know, it's this bullshit line,

945
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 4: nothing is good enough. I wrote an article about how

946
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 4: it's called the first Live, First Live Christianity, that that

947
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 4: there that there's not enough in the world. There's plenty,

948
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 4: there's more then you can possibly experience in your life,

949
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 4: and just complete bullshit to say that it's not enough,

950
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 4: And that's a very unfortunate. It's one of those teachings

951
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 4: that's so toxic and can go so deep that I

952
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 4: understand what you're saying. This process of finding meaning is

953
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 4: really a process because you have to. You have to

954
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 4: at some point come to the conclusion that what we

955
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 4: have offered to us in life, in being alive and

956
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 4: being creative and being loving to each other, is not

957
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 4: only enough, it's more than enough, and we need to

958
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 4: celebrate that. We need to have joy and celebration about

959
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 4: what is possible instead of setting up the impossible ideal

960
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 4: that we can never live up to.

961
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 2: Right, But it's so natural to be to want to

962
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 2: know why we're here when you've had an answer to

963
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 2: that your whole life and you don't have one anymore,

964
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 2: you know, Like, but.

965
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 3: Even if you haven't you know?

966
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I mean I guess it's the crucial humanitarian

967
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: question that every person has to grapple with in their life.

968
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is difficult.

969
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,800
Speaker 2: It's a big ask to be like, what, we don't

970
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 2: know why we're here, and so just be present in

971
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 2: your life, you know, like some of us are just

972
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 2: going to be searchers no matter what, but like we

973
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 2: still have to strive to find.

974
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that fruits of the spirit thing

975
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: that you said earlier is an important piece, just recognizing

976
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 1: that people who think differently than you, who live differently

977
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: than you, are also experiencing deep love, deep joy, deep connection,

978
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: deep meaning, and no one holds the monopoly on that.

979
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: And you can find what it means for yourself.

980
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 4: And we're part of the animal kingdom, We're part of life.

981
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 4: We're not separate and better and going somewhere, you know.

982
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 4: I like it ask the question has your cat accepted?

983
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 4: Jesus always has?

984
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely.

985
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: Minds of the whole whole ass life that I'm not

986
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: even aware of.

987
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 3: She's probably like a satanst or something.

988
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 2: It just brings me back to shrooms because when I'm

989
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 2: on trooms, I feel my place in the fabric of

990
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 2: nature and I'm like, oh, this is beautiful, this is okay.

991
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 3: But when I'm not on shrooms, it's really hard tod. Yeah, Like,

992
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 3: like Lula and I always.

993
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 4: Had what'd you say, it's hard to remember that.

994
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, remember that Lola.

995
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: And I have this thing, like I'm definitely a very

996
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: higher power person where you know, it's not God, but

997
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: it's something.

998
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,760
Speaker 3: But I just I also liked what you said.

999
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 1: About how stuff like stuff like this can be so

1000
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 1: triggering for people who suffer from religious trauma syndrome, and

1001
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,760
Speaker 1: it certainly used to be for me that that wouldn't

1002
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 1: even be a possibility for me, or like going to

1003
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: a twelve step meeting could be very triggering for people.

1004
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 1: It's not helpful for people when God and like, like

1005
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: even that word or hearing that word and just like

1006
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,399
Speaker 1: can produce a trauma response in people that we are

1007
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 1: as a society are.

1008
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 3: Not sensitive too at all.

1009
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in healing spaces, it's just kind of like

1010
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: you got it, except it's crazy.

1011
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's crazy.

1012
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 2: Well, do you have any final thoughts or words of

1013
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 2: wisdom for religious trauma survivors?

1014
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 4: Just that there's hope, There are plenty of people. There

1015
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 4: are millions of people who have left religion just as

1016
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 4: many as there are believers, and that there are plenty

1017
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 4: of people, especially now with all the information that's out

1018
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 4: and around about religion and trauma, there are there are

1019
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 4: plenty of people that are able to move on to reconstruct.

1020
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,439
Speaker 4: I like reconstruction as an important word.

1021
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: Love that.

1022
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, just deconstruction, but reconstruction of your life and learning

1023
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 4: to trust yourself, and that can do some things. One

1024
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 4: thing is to get support, you know. That's one thing

1025
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 4: that we try to offer it Journey Free. We have

1026
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 4: this support group that has meetings three times a month

1027
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 4: at different times so you can catch it a variety

1028
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 4: of times, and we talk on zoom. Everybody takes a

1029
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 4: turn with saying how they're doing and what some challenges

1030
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 4: are in their recovery. It's totally focused on healing and recovery.

1031
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 4: It's not about religion bashing or any theological debates or

1032
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 4: anything like that. It's completely supportive. So I'll just put

1033
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 4: in a plug in to go to journey Go to

1034
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 4: journey free dot org and cook on group support and

1035
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 4: there's also individual counseling course. But the fact that you

1036
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,399
Speaker 4: can talk to a group of people that totally understand

1037
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 4: what you're talking about is really really helpful emotionally to

1038
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 4: keep you going. You know, you don't have to explain

1039
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 4: every little thing because people understand what you're saying. Yeah,

1040
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 4: and can be empowering, not tell you what to do.

1041
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 4: We don't give advice, but we try to empower people

1042
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 4: to find their own way. And you can find also,

1043
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 4: you know, online, other kinds of support as well. But yeah,

1044
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 4: get the support you want and don't feel shy about

1045
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 4: reaching out and finding what you need and experiment. Trust

1046
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 4: yourself to experiment totally.

1047
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 3: I love it. Thank you so much for joining us.

1048
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 3: And are you on social media?

1049
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1050
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so just Marlene Winnell. Is that how people find you?

1051
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome new followers right here into your social media.

1052
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to the work that you've done. It's

1053
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 1: helped me so much, and you're continuing to do amazing things.

1054
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 3: So from a.

1055
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 1: Personal plant of view, thank you for helping me, and

1056
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 1: thank you for speaking to our listeners, and yeah, keep

1057
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 1: keep doing the good fight.

1058
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 4: Well you too. You guys are doing a great thing

1059
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 4: with this podcast, and that's the other thing people can do.

1060
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 4: Listen to podcasts. Listen to you, guys, find out more

1061
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 4: about it. Just keep on learning.

1062
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: You heard it here first, guys, Marlene says, listen to

1063
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 1: our podcast.

1064
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 3: That's what you can do. I'm just kidding. Listen to

1065
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 3: the podcast you are already listening to. Thank you, Marlne,

1066
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 3: Thank you very welcome. Have a wonderful day.

1067
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, and there we have it. And that brings

1068
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: me to something I was wondering in the interviews. I'll

1069
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 2: just ask you now, okay, which is you know you

1070
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 2: were asking her about ways to kind of internalize emotionally

1071
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 2: the thing you don't believe versus rationally, and I know

1072
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 2: you did em DR and I wondered if you did

1073
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 2: it specifically for this idea of Hell hovering over you

1074
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 2: all the time.

1075
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did, And I think it helped a lot. Really, yeah,

1076
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: I think it help a lot, like Hell used to.

1077
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 3: Be way more.

1078
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: I mean, AMDAR is actually one of the craziest things

1079
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: on the planet. And I hope everybody has access to

1080
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: it and looks it up if you don't know what

1081
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 1: it is and whatever, because it's a great way to process.

1082
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 3: I do think it helped. However, I think there's just some.

1083
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: Residual work to do around what that, Like I no

1084
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 1: longer really fear that place, but the trauma responses I've

1085
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: developed around responding to it, and as life as like

1086
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: life responses or something that I now need to address,

1087
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 1: you know, avoidance, decision making again, just a few of

1088
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: the things we touched on in the interview. I never

1089
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 1: really learned how to develop into the person I probably

1090
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 1: would have been had I been encouraged to think about

1091
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 1: myself in a different way. So self esteem, all of

1092
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: those things that hell and inherent badness, which I now

1093
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: can cognitively and emotionally be like, Okay, those aren't real,

1094
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: but like, what are the.

1095
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 3: Effects that those have had in my life? Am I thinking?

1096
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1097
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 3: Oh super interesting.

1098
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the problems that I had with

1099
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 2: therapy before I was doing like actual like cognitiveny kind

1100
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 2: of cognitive therapy was But like, okay, yeah, no, I'm

1101
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 2: aware that this problem exists, but like what do I

1102
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 2: do about it? You know, like I need tools for

1103
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 2: dealing with it, And so something that might be interesting

1104
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 2: for us to talk about moving forward, would maybe we

1105
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 2: could do an episode on it, would just be like,

1106
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 2: what are some like actual tools yes, like CBT tools

1107
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 2: that we can do to sort of like disrupt those

1108
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 2: thinking patterns that were stuck in Yes, because again, knowing

1109
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 2: it rationally is not the same as feeling in your bodies.

1110
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 3: You have to retrain your brain.

1111
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 2: And yeah, just we like I'm excited for the future

1112
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 2: of therapy and getting more granular and like what how

1113
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 2: to address things more specifically as you know, specialization I

1114
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 2: think is so important for real.

1115
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 1: But yeah, like I I mean, yeah, Marlene is the

1116
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 1: perfect example of that.

1117
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 2: Like most a lot of so many therapists don't know

1118
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 2: about how religion can impact totally. Yeah, anyway, so yeah,

1119
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 2: I'll probably.

1120
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 3: Be uh, maybe we can have on someone to talk.

1121
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 1: About, to have like three people on, three different people

1122
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:28,439
Speaker 1: at the same time.

1123
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 3: It's a great idea. Oh I'm excited, let's do that.

1124
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 1: Okay, great cool. Thank y'all so much for joining us

1125
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: for another week. We can't wait to see you again

1126
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 1: next time, and as always, remember to follow your gut,

1127
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 1: watch out for rad flex, and never ever trust me.

1128
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 3: Bye bye.

1129
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:49,960
Speaker 4: Trust Me.

1130
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 2: Is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp, and Steve Delamator.

1131
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 3: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1132
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1133
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1134
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1135
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1136
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1137
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1138
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1139
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 3: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.