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Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, are you happy with quantum mechanics?

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Speaker 2: You mean, like, do I understand it well enough?

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Speaker 1: Well? Has had nobody understood it? But I guess I'm

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Speaker 1: asking if you think it was a good idea, you know, like,

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Speaker 1: if you were designing the universe, would you have made

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Speaker 1: it quantum mechanical?

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Speaker 2: Oh that's hilarious. I mean, I'm pretty happy with our

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Speaker 2: universe and all of it's weird, glorious beauty. I hate

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Speaker 2: to give that up.

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Speaker 1: But wouldn't be cooler if it made more sense? You know,

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Speaker 1: if like electrons were really tiny little balls of stuff

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Speaker 1: instead of fuzzy on certain random things.

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Speaker 2: It might be easier, but it might also be less interesting.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I wonder if people would find it

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Speaker 1: more interesting if it was easier to understand.

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Speaker 2: We might have more particle physicists in that case. Would

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Speaker 2: that be good or bad? No?

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Speaker 1: No, No, you had have fewer, right, because it'd be easier

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Speaker 1: to understand. You could be doing something.

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Speaker 2: Else, like hosting a podcast.

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Speaker 1: There you go, a real job. Hi am Jorgemy, a

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Speaker 1: cartoonist and the author of Oliver's Great Big Universe.

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Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Daniel, and I'm a professor at u c

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Speaker 2: Irvine and a particle physicist. But it's been a long

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Speaker 2: time since I had a real job.

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Speaker 1: Or really, they've all been imaginary.

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Speaker 2: I think my last real job was working in the

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Speaker 2: kitchen at McDonald's.

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Speaker 1: I see, what did you consider both jobs to be

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Speaker 1: kind of the same. You're making hamburgers, You're making physics theories.

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Speaker 1: It's all very high in calories, a lot of additives.

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Speaker 2: One of them is brain food. The other ones got food.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of food, right.

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Speaker 2: There's a little more creativity involved in one of these

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Speaker 2: jobs than the other one.

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Speaker 1: MM, which one.

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Speaker 2: I'll leave that as an ex size to the listener.

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Speaker 1: Well, at least you did the experiment. But anyways, welcome

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Speaker 1: to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: A grand experiment to see if we can explain everything

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Speaker 2: in the universe to you. All the stuff that we

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Speaker 2: understand about how things work at the smallest scale, to

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Speaker 2: everything we don't understand about the little bits and the

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Speaker 2: big bits and everything in between about the universe. This

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Speaker 2: joyous adventure, the exploration of everything we do and do

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Speaker 2: not know, we think should be shared by everybody out there.

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Speaker 2: Everybody who has that curious itch to understand the nature

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Speaker 2: of the universe, to zoom forward to the forefront of

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Speaker 2: human knowledge and understand what we do and do not know.

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Speaker 1: The tread because it is an amazing universe full of

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Speaker 1: fast foods, slow foods, medium speed foods, all kinds of foods,

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Speaker 1: food for thought, food for your belly, food for your

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Speaker 1: soul as well. Do you consider physics to be sole food? Perhaps?

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Speaker 2: I think it nourishes philosophy, which is definitely soul food.

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Speaker 2: You know, all the big questions and physics in the

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Speaker 2: end have philosophical implications. Phys tells you, oh, the universes

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Speaker 2: this way, and philosophy wonders, well, why and why isn't

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Speaker 2: it that other way? And what does it mean anyway?

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Speaker 1: Well, sounds like we need to have an episode about

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Speaker 1: the physics of the soul. Perhaps we'll be very soulful.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of what we call the soul

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Speaker 2: is the spirit of humanity, and that's where our curiosity

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Speaker 2: comes from, our desire to understand our context, why we live,

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Speaker 2: to motivate the choices we make. I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of that can be informed by physics and what it

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Speaker 2: reveals about the nature of the universe we live in.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Nice, that's a great McDonald's answer. You spun that around

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Speaker 1: really fast.

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Speaker 2: Would you like fries with that?

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Speaker 1: Yes? Can you supersize it? It is a pretty amazing

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Speaker 1: universe out there, full of mysterious things and things that

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Speaker 1: we've learned and things that we have yet to learn

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Speaker 1: and figure out. And it all starts with having questions

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Speaker 1: about all of these things.

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Speaker 2: And you can ask questions that are big, huge, Thanksgiving

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Speaker 2: meal sized, or you can ask little questions, little snacks,

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Speaker 2: individual French fries kinds of questions. We encourage you to

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Speaker 2: ask all of them, and we're here on the pot

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Speaker 2: Pod to try to help you answer them. All of

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Speaker 2: our episodes are designed to scratch a piece of curiosity

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Speaker 2: inside your mind. But it's not possible to cover every

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Speaker 2: possible thing anybody could imagine, and so we want you

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Speaker 2: to write to us with more questions the things that

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Speaker 2: you wonder about the nature of the universe.

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Speaker 1: That's right, because everyone can have questions about the universe.

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Speaker 1: You can be a professor of physics, you can be

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Speaker 1: a philosopher. You can even be someone who works in

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Speaker 1: the fast food industry, or maybe someone with a real

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Speaker 1: job like being a podcast host. Anyone can have questions

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Speaker 1: about the universe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or you can be a combination professor, philosopher, podcast

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Speaker 2: hosts and McDonald's fry cook.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Well, accept a cartoonist. Cartoonists know all the

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Speaker 1: answers already.

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Speaker 2: And I'm terrified to ask you. Is being a cartoonist

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Speaker 2: a real job.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not a real job. Getting big to have

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Speaker 1: fun and doodle things. I don't know. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that counts as real. It's certainly a dream come true.

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Speaker 2: It's a scam, folks. You heard it here on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: No, No, I mean it's a dream. Oh, I see come true.

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Speaker 2: I think Ponzi had some dreams.

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Speaker 1: Also, didn't he had dreams of getting other people's money.

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Speaker 1: I just have dreams of drawing for fun.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think a lot of people out there dream

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Speaker 2: about understanding the universe and getting their questions answered, having

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Speaker 2: that experience when things click into place and you go, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: now I get it. So if you have questions about

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Speaker 2: the nature of the universe, for example, how you could

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Speaker 2: get paid to be a cartoonist or a physics professor,

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Speaker 2: then please write to us to questions at Danielandjorge dot Com.

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Speaker 1: Mmmm, has this become a career advice podcast that might

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Speaker 1: actually make this more of a real job.

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Speaker 2: I think both of us have very odd and unusual

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Speaker 2: career paths.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I don't think anybody went to advice in terms

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Speaker 1: of to make money or not make money, I guess.

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Speaker 2: But I do hope that people will write to us

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Speaker 2: with their questions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so today on the podcast, we'll be tackling

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Speaker 1: listener questions number forty four. This is our forty fourth

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Speaker 1: episode answering listener questions, Daniel, is there a theme to

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Speaker 1: these questions?

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Speaker 2: The themes of these questions is that they come after

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Speaker 2: the forty third episode and before the forty fifth episode.

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Speaker 1: Mmmmm. Does that make it like a special like numerical

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Speaker 1: magical number.

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Speaker 2: These questions all came in within the same week, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, ooh, these are interesting questions, and so we're

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Speaker 2: going to answer them today. That's the theme.

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Speaker 1: I see. The theme is that Daniel was too lazy

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Speaker 1: fine questions with a real theme. It's all chronological, you mean,

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Speaker 1: like all this time we've been answering questions chronologically as

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Speaker 1: they come in.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's roughly chronologically. I try to answer people's

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Speaker 2: questions within a reasonable timeframe. You know, they send me

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Speaker 2: the questions that go on the list, we record the episode,

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Speaker 2: it gets edited. It can be a few months between

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Speaker 2: asking the question and getting the answer, so I try

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Speaker 2: to shorten that. But then I also try sometimes to

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Speaker 2: group the questions by theme when possible, but it's not

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Speaker 2: always possible.

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Speaker 1: I guess it's more like a true representative sample of

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Speaker 1: how we get the questions right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are core sample our listener's brains.

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Speaker 1: Today, metaphorically philosophical in a cartoony kind of way, auditorially. Well,

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Speaker 1: we have three great questions here today from our listeners.

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Speaker 1: One of them is about the weather and the tilt

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Speaker 1: of our planet. The other one is about the structure

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Speaker 1: of the atom, and the last one is about the

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Speaker 1: fundamental nature of reality itself.

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Speaker 2: And radical angles.

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Speaker 1: Oh, we have radicalized questions, right, Well, let's jump into

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Speaker 1: our first question. The first one comes from Chris Hi, Dangel.

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Speaker 3: And Jorge What would weather be like on Earth if

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Speaker 3: we rotated around a horizontal axis rather than the readly

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Speaker 3: vertical access we rotate around. Also, how would that weather

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Speaker 3: differ if our access pointed either toward the Sun or

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Speaker 3: in line with our orbital path. Thanks for the great podcast.

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Speaker 1: All right, awesome question though I'm confused, Like, is there

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Speaker 1: a horizontal and vertical in space?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's horizontal and vertical relative to the Sun, right.

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Speaker 2: The Sun sort of defines the axis of the Solar system.

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Speaker 2: It spins around that has a north and a south

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Speaker 2: pole of that spin. And then most of the planets

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Speaker 2: orbit in a plane that's perpendicular to that axis, and

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Speaker 2: so the Earth tilts relative to that plane of the Sun.

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Speaker 1: WHOA, but are they I wonder if they're exactly the same.

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Speaker 1: Like the axis of spin of the Sun is the

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Speaker 1: same as the axis of spin of the whole Solar system,

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Speaker 1: Like exactly the same or has it changed a little bit?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, these are great questions. It's not exactly the same.

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Speaker 2: Like some of the planets do not orbit in that plane, right,

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Speaker 2: or they orbit a little bit off from it. It's

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Speaker 2: the complex system with lots of things tugging on it,

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Speaker 2: so it becomes chaotic. As other stars come nearby, they

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Speaker 2: give little tugs to Jupiter andto Saturn. All these things

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Speaker 2: accumulate over millions of years and make it so that

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Speaker 2: everything is not perfectly aligned.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So then if the axis of rotation of the

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Speaker 1: Sun is the perfect vehicle, it's say, in our solar system,

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Speaker 1: the Earth is sort of aligned to that, but not

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Speaker 1: exactly right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Earth's angle is tilted relative to the angle

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Speaker 2: of the Sun by what seems like kind of a

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Speaker 2: big number. It's like twenty two twenty three degrees, where

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Speaker 2: you know, ninety degrees be totally tilted over and zero

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Speaker 2: degrees would be perfectly aligned with the Sun. I was

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Speaker 2: sort of surprised to look that number up. It seems

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Speaker 2: kind of big.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like a lot.

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Speaker 2: It seems like a lot, And it's the reason why

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Speaker 2: southern California is such a wonderful place to live, because

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Speaker 2: we don't have winters. Winters are the direct cause of

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Speaker 2: the Earth's axis being tilted.

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Speaker 1: Wait, what do you mean If we didn't have the

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Speaker 1: axis tilted, we wouldn't have winter, or we would have winter.

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Speaker 2: If we didn't have an axial tilt. If the Earth

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Speaker 2: rotated along exactly the same axis as the Sun, then

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Speaker 2: parts of the Earth wouldn't get more or less sun

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Speaker 2: during different parts of the year.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't Our orbit sort of brings us closer and a

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Speaker 1: little farther from the sun anyways.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there's also that effect that you get a little

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Speaker 2: bit closer and a little bit further. Most of the

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Speaker 2: reason we have seasons is because the axial tilt.

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Speaker 1: So if we didn't have the tilt, we wouldn't have seasons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we wouldn't have seasons, or we'd have much much

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Speaker 2: milder seasons. It would be due to smaller effects like

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Speaker 2: the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit.

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Speaker 1: Although I didn't know we had seasons California. Here, do

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Speaker 1: you have seasons where you lived three hours away?

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Speaker 2: We had a hurricane two weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: That's not a season, that's a weather event.

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Speaker 2: Now we have a hurricane season.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it happens once three hundred years.

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Speaker 2: Or something something like that. No, of course, things are

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Speaker 2: very mild, and as you get towards the equator, things

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Speaker 2: get milder and milder. These seasons are more dramatic at

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Speaker 2: the axis where the tilts has a bigger impact.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, actually it's more dramatic. If you're closer to

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Speaker 1: the poles, then the seasons are more dramatic due to

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Speaker 1: the tilt.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you're right, it's mild. Or if you're near

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Speaker 2: the equator, and more dramatic if you're near either of

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Speaker 2: the poles, which is why, for example, at the North

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Speaker 2: Pole the Sun goes down in the winter and doesn't

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Speaker 2: come up for months, and in the summer you can

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Speaker 2: see the Sun four months. Right, These effects are more dramatic,

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Speaker 2: and they're all due to the axial tilt.

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Speaker 1: Right. So now Chris's question is, like, what if that

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Speaker 1: tilt of the Earth of its spin axies was not

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Speaker 1: just twenty sixty degrees, what if it was ninety degrees?

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Speaker 1: So like, what if our spin axes was kind of

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Speaker 1: in the same plane as the disk of the Solar System.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd be awesome and strange, but first of all,

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Speaker 2: it'd be very weird from a physics point of view. Like,

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Speaker 2: it's not a coincidence that all the planets are orbiting

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Speaker 2: around the same plane and that happens to line up

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Speaker 2: with the axis of the Sun. It's because of conservation

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Speaker 2: of angular momentum. The original blob of stuff that formed

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Speaker 2: the Sun and the planets had a single overall spin,

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Speaker 2: and that spin can't go anywhere. It has to stick around,

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Speaker 2: So everything that forms from it eventually has that spin.

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Speaker 2: So anything that's spinning in a different way is due

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Speaker 2: to something happening, like a big event. For example, Urinus

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Speaker 2: has an axial tilt of ninety seven degrees, and we

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Speaker 2: think it's probably due to some huge collisions. Something came

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Speaker 2: in balked Urinus and gave it a different kind of tilt.

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Speaker 2: That's the kind of thing that needs to happen to

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Speaker 2: have a big tilt.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, like Urinus has a

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Speaker 1: tilted spin axis kind of like Chris is asking about, right,

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Speaker 1: Like Urinus is flying through space kind of like a

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Speaker 1: football in some cases, right, like an American football.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, spinning along the direction of its motion, whereas the

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Speaker 2: Earth is spinning more like a basketball on the fingertip

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Speaker 2: of a harlem lobe trotter as walks across the basketball court.

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Speaker 1: Now it urinus spin axis is pointing towards where it's

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Speaker 1: moving sometimes of the year, right of its ear, like

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Speaker 1: it's always pointing towards like let's say, the center of

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Speaker 1: the Milky Way or something like that, even as it

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Speaker 1: goes around the Sun exactly.

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Speaker 2: And that was the other part of Chris's question, whether

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Speaker 2: the axis would always be towards the Sun or along

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Speaker 2: the orbital path or what and conservation of angl momentum

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Speaker 2: tells us that it always points in the same direction.

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Speaker 2: You can't have like a spin that follows your orbit

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Speaker 2: perfectly like a football, because then the direction that spin

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Speaker 2: would be changing as you go around the Sun, and

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Speaker 2: that takes a tork. It takes some kind of external force.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing to apply that. So as the Earth goes

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Speaker 2: around the Sun, the direction of its axis doesn't change, right,

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Speaker 2: which is why the North pole sometimes further from the

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Speaker 2: Sun and sometimes closer to the Sun. And the same

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Speaker 2: is true for Uranus. It's always pointing in the same

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Speaker 2: direction as it goes around the Sun. The direction of

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Speaker 2: its spin. Its axis doesn't change, so neither is always

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Speaker 2: pointing towards the Sun or always pointing along its orbit.

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Speaker 2: As you say, it's always pointing in the same direction.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and in fact, sort of I imagine the spin

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Speaker 1: of Urinus actually sort of keeps. That helps keep that

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Speaker 1: axis from moving or changing, right, because then you have

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Speaker 1: angler momentum pointing in one way, and so as it

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Speaker 1: goes around the Sun it tries to stay in the

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Speaker 1: same direction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. It's like a big gyroscope, like a huge

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Speaker 2: planet sized gyroscope always keeping its spin pointing in the

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Speaker 2: same direction.

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Speaker 1: All right, So then the question is what would the

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Speaker 1: weather be like if the Earth was spinning sideways, kind

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Speaker 1: of like uranus.

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Speaker 2: It would be more severe seasons, right, It'd be warmer

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Speaker 2: summers and colder winters.

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Speaker 1: Mmm, what do you mean?

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Speaker 2: The Earth rotates every twenty four hours, right, And if

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Speaker 2: the Earth axis is aligned with the Sun axis, that

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Speaker 2: means you see the Sun every twenty four hours because

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Speaker 2: the Earth turns and you get a view of it.

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Speaker 2: But if the Earth axis is tilted, then its rotation

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Speaker 2: can't show you the Sun, or there's no way for

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Speaker 2: the Earth to rotate to show you the Sun. The

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Speaker 2: only way to see the Sun is to wait for

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Speaker 2: the Earth to go around the Sun. So you are

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Speaker 2: now on the sun side of the Earth.

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Speaker 1: That's only if you're like in the north pole of

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Speaker 1: this tilted Earth, right. But if, like, if you're in

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Speaker 1: the equator of the tilted Earth, some parts of the year,

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Speaker 1: you would see the Sun every day, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think half of the Earth would be in

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Speaker 2: darkness and half the Earth would be in sun, and

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Speaker 2: the equator would be the dividing line between.

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Speaker 1: Those, right, Like, if your spin axis was pointing directly

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Speaker 1: at the sun or directly away from the sun, then yeah,

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Speaker 1: half of the earth would always be in darkness, half

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Speaker 1: of the Earth would be in daylight no matter how

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Speaker 1: it spins. But then that's the axes is pointing directly

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Speaker 1: the sun. But on the other parts of the times

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Speaker 1: of the year, right then everyone sees a day, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. So you have very dark winters and

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Speaker 2: then in spring and in fall you do have daytime

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Speaker 2: and nighttime, and then it's summer it's one hundred percent sun.

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Speaker 2: So the effect is more dramatic seasons.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so like, never mind the seasons, Like your day

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Speaker 1: to day would totally vary depending on the year, right,

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Speaker 1: Like in some parts of the year, six months a year,

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Speaker 1: everyone would have like a twenty four hour day. But

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Speaker 1: then the other parts of the year, you'd it'd be

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Speaker 1: like living in the North or South Pole, like you

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Speaker 1: never get sunlight or you would never get nighttime exactly.

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Speaker 2: You'd have continuous daylight for months and continuous nighttime for months,

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Speaker 2: and then periods in between where you had short days

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Speaker 2: or short nights, So it would be very dramatic'd be

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Speaker 2: like currently living at the North Pole, or the south pole.

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Speaker 1: But then that would be sort of your daytime experience

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Speaker 1: or what I wonder Chris's question is what would the

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Speaker 1: weather be like like? Would the weather be different, would

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Speaker 1: we get like super crazy storms, would everyone fry on

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Speaker 1: one side of the Earth? Would you get no weather

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Speaker 1: at all? What would that be like?

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Speaker 2: So it would mean more severe seasons, which probably means

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Speaker 2: more storms, right, Hotter summers, more energy in the oceans,

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Speaker 2: more storms being formed, deeper winters, more snowfalling, which means

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Speaker 2: more dramatic melt off, which means more flooding. So I

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Speaker 2: think it means more dramatic weather events.

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Speaker 1: Hmm, right. I guess like if the spin axis is

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Speaker 1: facing the sun right, and like the top half of

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Speaker 1: the spinning Earth gets sun twenty four hours a day,

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Speaker 1: then things would sort of overheat, right, I guess, like

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Speaker 1: if there wouln't be any poles, maybe things wouldn't be melt,

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Speaker 1: But then when it gets to the other side, things

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Speaker 1: will probably freeze on that part of the Earth.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm, exactly. But in order for the Earth itself

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Speaker 2: to like freeze and form ice sheets and ice ages

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Speaker 2: requires cool summers. So when you have less severe seasons,

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Speaker 2: when you have cool summers and mild winters, Like if

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Speaker 2: the Earth had less tilt, you would actually get more

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Speaker 2: ice build up. And if you have more severe seasons,

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Speaker 2: warmer summers, even if you have colder winters, you don't

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Speaker 2: build up that ice because the warm summer obliterates it.

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Speaker 1: So then here you what would happen just be more extreme,

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Speaker 1: Like you would freeze half of the year and you

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Speaker 1: would roast the other half of the year.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So you'd have to get more into extreme sports,

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Speaker 2: more surfing and snowboarding.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if we would even be alive, Like,

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Speaker 1: what could life evolve in a planet like that?

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Speaker 2: I think that some kind of life certainly could. I mean,

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Speaker 2: even our situation is kind of weird if you approach

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Speaker 2: it with no priors, but some kind of life could evolve.

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Speaker 2: It would have different strategies and different rhythms for sure,

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Speaker 2: and that would be fascinating. And we've looked actually at

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Speaker 2: exoplanets to try to understand how common is our kind

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Speaker 2: of tilt, what kind of tilts are out there. We'd

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Speaker 2: love to know that about exoplanets to get some sort

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Speaker 2: of context for what's happening. But it's very difficult to

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Speaker 2: measure the spin of exoplanets.

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Speaker 1: Although just from our Solar system, it seems like having

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Speaker 1: a spin aligned with your son is the norm, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the normal thing, if there are no collisions, is

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Speaker 2: to be aligned with your son. But how likely is

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Speaker 2: it to have no collisions In our solar system? Venus

385
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Speaker 2: is spinning like the wrong way, Urinus is tipped over,

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Speaker 2: So it seems also not unusual to have big events

387
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Speaker 2: and weird spins, though this is just from the one

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Speaker 2: example of our Solar system. We do know, however, that

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Speaker 2: the Earth spin is changing. It's around twenty three degrees now,

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Speaker 2: but it's not constant.

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Speaker 1: Wait, what what do you mean?

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Speaker 2: So it changes because the Moon pulls on it and

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Speaker 2: other planets pull on it. Again, the Solar system is

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Speaker 2: a chaotic place. Nothing is a simple two body system

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Speaker 2: with a stable orbit. And over the last five million years,

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Speaker 2: the Earth tilts has varied between twenty two and twenty

397
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Speaker 2: four degrees. It goes back and forth with a period

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Speaker 2: of like forty thousand years.

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Speaker 1: Whoa like it has a wobble to it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it has a wobble. It has a big wobble

401
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Speaker 2: over forty thousand years, and then a smaller wabble every

402
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Speaker 2: like nineteen years. They call it a nutation, and that's

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Speaker 2: due to the orbit of the Moon not being aligned

404
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Speaker 2: with the orbit of the Earth. It's like tilted a

405
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Speaker 2: little bit relative to the plane of the Solar System,

406
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Speaker 2: so it tugs on the Earth a little bit differently

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Speaker 2: as it goes around, and this tweaks the Earth a

408
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Speaker 2: little bit, so there's like a big wiggle and then

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Speaker 2: a little wiggle inside it.

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Speaker 1: I wonder how we've measured that, Like, how do we

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Speaker 1: know that the tilt is changing over forty thousand years?

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Speaker 2: So we've been making these measurements over about the past

413
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,399
Speaker 2: thousand years, and then we can project back using our

414
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,639
Speaker 2: model the Solar system. So a lot of this is speculative.

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00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,359
Speaker 2: It's like understanding the gravitational effects and projecting it backwards.

416
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Speaker 2: We can model these things. We can also project it forwards.

417
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Speaker 2: We know that the Moon is drifting away from the Earth,

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Speaker 2: which means it's going to have a weaker and weaker

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Speaker 2: effect gravitationally on the Earth, and a lot of the

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Speaker 2: models I was reading about suggest that the Moon has

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Speaker 2: a stabilizing effect on the Earth's tilt, like it does

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Speaker 2: cause it to wiggle, but it prevents it from getting

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Speaker 2: pushed out by even larger forces like Jupiter or Saturn

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Speaker 2: or other orbital resonances. So it sort of like stabilizes

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Speaker 2: the Earth, which means as it drifts away, it's less

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Speaker 2: and less able to stabilize the Earth. One paper I

427
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Speaker 2: read suggested that if the Moon drifted away, if we

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Speaker 2: didn't have a moon, then within a few million years,

429
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Speaker 2: the Earth's axis would be ninety degrees. It would be

430
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Speaker 2: knocked totally over by orbital resonances and chaotic behavior in

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Speaker 2: the Solar system.

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Speaker 1: Yikes, it's a good thing we have.

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Speaker 2: The moon then, exactly, think you moon.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how we even got this tilt in

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Speaker 1: the first place, the twenty three degree angles, because of

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Speaker 1: the impact we had maybe when the moon was formed.

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00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a leading theory. It has to come from

438
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Speaker 2: outside the angular momentum of the Solar system to get

439
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:09,879
Speaker 2: that kind of tilt. And we think the moon was

440
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,639
Speaker 2: formed by a big collision with a proto planet, and

441
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 2: so that might have done it.

442
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I think that answers the question for Chris,

443
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,199
Speaker 1: what would the weather be like? It'd be pretty extreme, Like,

444
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 1: first of all, your day to day would be really different.

445
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,480
Speaker 1: Like sometimes of the year you would have a day cycle,

446
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 1: but then the other half of the year you would

447
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 1: have either complete darkness or complete daylight all the time,

448
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,119
Speaker 1: and then that would make the weather more extreme.

449
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 2: Exactly. Maybe McDonald's would be open twenty four hours a day,

450
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,160
Speaker 2: giving lots of young people jobs.

451
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 1: Or maybe closed twenty four hours a day, letting people

452
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 1: eat more healthy perhaps.

453
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, or stay at home and develop their cartooning skills.

454
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 1: That's right, then they get a smarter All right, let's

455
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,240
Speaker 1: tackle these other questions about quantum mechanics, the structure of

456
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: the atom, and also the fundamental nature of the universe.

457
00:20:55,119 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: But first let's take a quick break. All right, we're

458
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,439
Speaker 1: answering listener questions here today, and our next question comes

459
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,120
Speaker 1: from josh Hi Daniel Mjorge.

460
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 4: I'm a big fan of the show. I know that

461
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,199
Speaker 4: quantum mechanics is necessary to describe our universe and the

462
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,159
Speaker 4: way Adams form, but it has of course been a

463
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 4: somewhat unsatisfying theory to many, including that guy Einstein, given

464
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,120
Speaker 4: how strange and unintuitive it is. That got me wondering

465
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 4: would it be possible to engineer a different atomic structure?

466
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 4: Governed only by classical mechanics rather than quantum mechanics, that

467
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 4: would look roughly the same when zoomed out. So could

468
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 4: there theoretically be a different universe that looks similar to ours,

469
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 4: governed only by classical mechanics. Thanks so much for considering

470
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:54,439
Speaker 4: this question.

471
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 1: Hmm, interesting question, Thank you, Josh. All Right. I think

472
00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 1: he's saying that he doesn't like the universe and he

473
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: wants to change.

474
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 2: He's got notes.

475
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got opinions about the structure of the universe.

476
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like, I like what you've done here. Mostly

477
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 2: I just have a few thoughts about what's going on

478
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 2: inside the atom.

479
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: I wonder if he's more asking like, could you change it?

480
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 1: Could the nature of the universe be different and not

481
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: and not be noticeable.

482
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's wondering if behind the curtain of atomic structure,

483
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 2: we could like re engineer it to be classical, to

484
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 2: not follow the quantum rules and still reproduce the world

485
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,920
Speaker 2: that we experience. It's a really cool question, because you know,

486
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 2: one hundred years ago, that's the direction we were headed.

487
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 2: We thought we understood physics, the way things move, the

488
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 2: way things spun, and we thought as we zoomed in

489
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: on matter, we would find the same rules apply, that

490
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 2: the atom really would be like a tiny solar system.

491
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 2: So that's sort of what physics expected to find up

492
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 2: until about one hundred years ago.

493
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: Right, and then he said, we got quantum mechanics, and

494
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 1: not even Einstein seemed to like even Eistein gave it

495
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: a bad review.

496
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it certainly was not what we expected. It

497
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: was counterintuitive. We discovered that electrons are not tiny little

498
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 2: dots of stuff moving in smooth classical paths the way

499
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 2: other stuff does. It follows a different set of rules.

500
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 2: And we discover that because we saw things operating in

501
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 2: ways that classical physics just could not explain. So I

502
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 2: love the part of his question where he says when

503
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 2: zoomed out, like he gives up explaining the atomic structure,

504
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 2: when you zoom in and examine the quantum nature of

505
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 2: the universe directly in the eye. But he wants to

506
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 2: zoom out and say, could we build our classical world

507
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 2: without quantum mechanics as an underpinning?

508
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: Right? Well, it's interesting I think he said first of

509
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 1: all that he finds quantum mechanics unsatisfying and unintuitive. I

510
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: wonder if you feel the same way. Do you find

511
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: it unsatisfying when.

512
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: You're first learning quantum mechanics. He certainly find it frustrating

513
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 2: because it doesn't give you the kind of answers you're

514
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 2: used to getting. What it teaches you, though, is you

515
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 2: have to ask different kinds of questions, and in the end,

516
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 2: getting a different kind of answer is really teaching you

517
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 2: more about the nature of reality. Things that are weird

518
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 2: and counterintuitive and surprising are always more informative, right, That's

519
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 2: how you're learning. You're updating your model about the way

520
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 2: the universe works. In the end, I just want to

521
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: know what the universe is. I accept it, you know,

522
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: Universes are universes.

523
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he also said he finds it unintuitive. You know,

524
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: that's a kind of an interesting statement, you know, because

525
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 1: intuition kind of depends, right, and your intuition can change

526
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: as well.

527
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's certainly true, and eventually, if you play with

528
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: quantum mechanics long enough, you can develop a quantum intuition.

529
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: But most of us have a classical intuition. We imagine

530
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: that things move smoothly, that they always have a location

531
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: and velocity. So the idea that things can have like

532
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 2: only probabilities, and those probabilities can interfere in weird ways

533
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: and they follow fundamentally different rules. It's definitely unintuitive.

534
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 1: When you develop that intuition. Do you call it quintuition?

535
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 1: I will now yeah coin here on the podcast.

536
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: But there is this part where he talks about being

537
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 2: zoomed out like how our world is. And I want

538
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 2: to make sure the listeners understand that most of the

539
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: structure of our world, what we do experience, the things

540
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: that developed our intuition, these aren't built on a quantum platform.

541
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: Like most to the nature of the world we experience

542
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 2: comes from the underlying quantum mechanics. When you zoom out,

543
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 2: how the atom is formed, and how light gets emitted,

544
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: and whether things are transparent, and all of chemistry, all

545
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: these things are built on essentially quantum properties of the atom.

546
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's this question is like, could you

547
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 1: have a universe that behaves that way at the macro level,

548
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: but that doesn't have quantum mechanics at its core, Like

549
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: does zerover have to have to be random at the

550
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: atomic particle level or could it be deterministic I for example,

551
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: and not be quantum.

552
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 2: Well, not all of quantum mechanics is random. There are

553
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: branches of quantum mechanics, like boemium mechanics, which are deterministic,

554
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 2: so that's not actually even necessary to be fundamentally random.

555
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: But there are essential elements of the atomic structure which

556
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 2: are quantum mechanical which are very challenging for any sort

557
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: of classical physics to reproduce. For example, even just the

558
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 2: structure of the atom. Like if you try to build

559
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 2: an atom as a tiny little electron orbiting in nucleus

560
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 2: like a little solar system, right, and you said, it

561
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 2: really has an orbit, it really has a lowcatetion and velocity,

562
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 2: there's none of this uncertainty stuff. Everything is somewhere all

563
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: the time. You would find that that is not a

564
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 2: stable orbit, the same way that, like the Earth eventually

565
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 2: will spiral into the Sun, that electron eventually would spiral

566
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: into the nucleus because everything that's in orbit radiates away

567
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 2: some of its energy and would eventually collapse. So the

568
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: simplest idea classical atom just doesn't work. Doesn't mean that

569
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: it's impossible to develop a classical atom, but there are

570
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 2: big challenges there.

571
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: What if you adjust or add something new to classical

572
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: theory like that would be like an electron would fall

573
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: into the nucleus eventually if we only had certain the

574
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: forces that we know about now. But what if there

575
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: was like another force that pushed the electron out or

576
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: prevented it from falling in.

577
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 2: Well, anything that's in orbit, anything that moves in that

578
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 2: pattern is accelerating, and it has to radiate any classical

579
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 2: object at least, that's pretty unescapable even if you add

580
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 2: another force. But you're on the right track. There is

581
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 2: actually an alternative theory of the electron that uses just

582
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 2: class waves. It gets around this problem with the electron

583
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: radiating away its energy by saying, maybe the electron isn't

584
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 2: a particle, it actually is just deeply a wave, and

585
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 2: it finds a wave solution to the atom. There's a

586
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 2: paper by Rishikovski in twenty sixteen. I remember reading it

587
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: when it came out, and it's a very radical reimagining

588
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: of how the atom works. And you give up both

589
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 2: quantum mechanics and the concept that the electron is a

590
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: particle at all. It's just like a wave solution. It

591
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: says the electron fundamentally is a wave, not a quantum wave,

592
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: but a classical wave.

593
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: I guess maybe it would help to break down what

594
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: you mean by something being quantum, right, because quantum means

595
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: both it has a wave nature and also that it's

596
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: random in its fundamental nature. So are you saying, like,

597
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: if you take out one of them, you could still

598
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: have a wavy electron.

599
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: I would say what makes something quantum is that it

600
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 2: obeys the Schrodinger equation. Instead of like classical equations, Shirtinger

601
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: equation is a fundamentally different equation. It says that the

602
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 2: laws of physics do not apply to a particle or

603
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: to the wave itself, but to this other thing, the

604
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: wave function. You can then derive where things are likely

605
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 2: to be. It's really a very different way to start

606
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: your physics.

607
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: You know.

608
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 2: You don't just say, like F equals M and from

609
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: that everything flows. You start with a completely different equation

610
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: and from that everything flows. And where does that equation

611
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 2: come from? You know, it just sort of came out

612
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 2: of Schrodinger's head and Heisenberg came up with another one,

613
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: and we use it because it works because it reproduces

614
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 2: what's out there in the universe. So I would say

615
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 2: that's sort of what defines something as quantum mechanical, that

616
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: it deals directly with the wave function rather than with

617
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 2: the actual motion of the object.

618
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: But then you were saying, like, it might be possible

619
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: for an electron to be a wave but not be random.

620
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So there are these classical wave theories, Like

621
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 2: the original theory of light was a classical wave theory

622
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: of electromagnetic fields that were oscillating. This was Maxwell's theory

623
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: before quantum mechanics came along, and it said that light

624
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: was a classical wave, that it operated the same way

625
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 2: that like waves in the ocean do that the fields

626
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: always has very specific kinetic energy and locations and all

627
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff. So you can have a classical wave.

628
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 2: And there are some theories of the atom which are

629
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: built on classical waves, so they're not random, they're not

630
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: quantum mechanical, and they do have this alternative view, but

631
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 2: there's a lot of challenges there. It's not like they've

632
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 2: worked out a complete theory of physics using classical waves

633
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: for the atom. It's just really sort of a directionist start.

634
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: People are saying, is this possible?

635
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: So then you're saying, like, the main thing that would

636
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,479
Speaker 1: not make the classical universe work is that the electron

637
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: would eventually lose its energy and fall into the nucleus.

638
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: But why doesn't that happen in quantum mechanics.

639
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 2: So in quantum mechanics, that doesn't happen because those same

640
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 2: rules don't apply. The particle doesn't have an orbit. It's

641
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: not moving in a circle, it's not accelerating, so it

642
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: doesn't have to radiate. In quantum mechanics, the particle doesn't

643
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: have an orbit. It has a quantum state, which is

644
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 2: a solution to the Shronninger equation, and that quantum state

645
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: has a minimum value which is not add zero. Like

646
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: all quantum particles have a minimum energy to them. It's

647
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: impossible for a quantum particle to have zero energy. If

648
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: it had zero energy, it would be violate the Heisenberg

649
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: uncertainty principle, which tells you you can't know the position

650
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: and momentum simultaneously. Something is at zero energy. You know

651
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: where it is, and you know how much momentum it

652
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: has zero so boom, you violated the rules.

653
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: But doesn't that mean that there's some sort of like

654
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: fundamental energy to the universe or force that's preventing all

655
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: of these particles from collapsing.

656
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: It tells you the fundamental nature of these objects is

657
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 2: that they have to have a minimum energy. They just

658
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: cannot satisfy the equations we use to describe these physical

659
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: objects do not have solutions with zero energy. The universe

660
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 2: just does not do that. So, yes, it's a fundamental

661
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: property of the quantum nature of these objects.

662
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: But I guess couldn't you have that in a classical theory,

663
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: Like you could have an electron orbiting the nucleus sort

664
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: of like a little planet around its sun. But then

665
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: there's some rule to the universe. It says it has

666
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: to have a minimum amount of energy, and so that

667
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: prevents it from collapsing.

668
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: That's the direction this classical electron wave theory is going,

669
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: is saying, let's avoid being a particle that has acceleration.

670
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: Let's just find solutions to the waves. Because in quantum mechanics,

671
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: the way you get around this is finding the solutions

672
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: to the shortening equation, which is a wave equation, and

673
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: so they're trying to build a classical wave equation that

674
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 2: has similar structure to it that avoids those minima in

675
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 2: the same way. The reason why maybe this classical wave

676
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 2: theory could ever work, right.

677
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: But I mean you're sort of basically saying the same

678
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: thing as quantum mechanics, right, Like quantum mechanics, you saying, no,

679
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: you have to have a minimum, you can't collapse. Well,

680
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: why if I make a classical universe where I say

681
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: you can't collapse either.

682
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can try to go that way. It's

683
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: going to be really challenging to reproduce all of the

684
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 2: features of quantum mechanics. Right in physics, it's easy to

685
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 2: sometimes pick at one particular theory say I have another

686
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: theory which explains that better. Yeah, that's cool, bro, But

687
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: we have lots of things that you have to explain.

688
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: Not only do you have to explain why the atom

689
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: is stable, you have to explain why there are quantized

690
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 2: energy levels to the nucleus. You have to explain why

691
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: we see spectral lines. You have to explain why some

692
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 2: things are transparent and why some things have certain colors.

693
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 2: All of these things are due to the quantum nature

694
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 2: of the atom and the energy level. All of chemistry

695
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: comes out of this, so you have to explain much

696
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 2: more than just keeping the atom stable. So it's a

697
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: huge challenge.

698
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, bro, Yeah, Bro, I can't believe bro. I feel

699
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: like you've had this argument in your head now for

700
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: a long time.

701
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: No, this is me picking up my daughter's slang. She

702
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: calls me bro Whenever I try to talk physics to her.

703
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: Did you inform her your her father, not her brother?

704
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: Whatever. I try to explain some physics to her, she says,

705
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: cool story, Bro.

706
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: Now does she stud bro o or bru h? You

707
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: know that that's totally a different connotation.

708
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to listen more carefully.

709
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: I think maybe I wonder if you should just stick

710
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: to Josh's question, Like, I know, it'd be really hard

711
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: to make all of the universe be explained without quantum mechanics.

712
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: But let's say, like his question about the atomic structure,

713
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: could you make an atomic structure that works without quantum mechanics?

714
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: And it seems like the answer is yes.

715
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: Maybe I think the answer is yes, it is possible.

716
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: I don't know, but this classical wave theory, but you

717
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: can go much more baroque, you know, if you just

718
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 2: need to reproduce all of chemistry and the atomic structure

719
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: and the spectral lines and all these behaviors of the atom,

720
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: you could engineer like a little machine that has really

721
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: complex interaction that does all this kind of stuff. It

722
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: wouldn't be simple in order to reverse engineer all this behavior.

723
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 2: You have to fold it a lot of really complicated stuff.

724
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: One of the beautiful things about quantum mechanics is that

725
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: it is pretty simple. You start from a single equation

726
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: and everything else flows from that, And as sort of

727
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: a ring of truth to it, you could always replace

728
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 2: physics with like a huge complicated Rube Goldberg like device

729
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: that does the same thing. It just wouldn't have the

730
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: same explanatory power.

731
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: But I guess you also shouldn't be led by oakms

732
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: razors all the time, right, Like, just because something simpler

733
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: in it doesn't mean it's true.

734
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. The universe could have been an incredibly complicated,

735
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: steampunk engineered version of the universe, with like all sorts

736
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: of pulleys and things rolling down planes and bonking into

737
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: stuff and banging with themselves with rubber chickens in order

738
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: to release a little packet of energy which then goes

739
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: into your microscope. Like that certainly could explain the universe,

740
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: And you could engineer a steampunk version of the atom

741
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: that gave you the same experience when zoomed out, and in.

742
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 1: That universe, your daughter wouldn't say yeah, Bro, should say yeah, Baroke,

743
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: which is which is a terrible joke.

744
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 2: I laugh at all your jokes, terrible or not.

745
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bro? All right, well I think that ANSWER's Josh's question.

746
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: Would it be possible to engineer a different atomic structure

747
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: that doesn't follow quantum mechanics? Uh? Maybe, Yeah, it's possible,

748
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: I guess, but you're saying probably not because quantum mechanics

749
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: is so convincing, and not just in its simplicity, but

750
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: it's an ability to explain not just the atomic structure,

751
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: but other things about the universe. All right, well, let's

752
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: get to our last question of the day, and this

753
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: one is pretty interesting. It's about the fundamental nature of

754
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: reality and also radical angles. So let's dig into that.

755
00:34:50,719 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: But first let's take a quick break. All Right, we're

756
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: answering listener questions. We've answered questions about the tilt of

757
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: the earth and how different weather would be, and also

758
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: about the fundamental structure of the atom and quantum mechanics,

759
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: and now we are attacking something a little bit more radical,

760
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: And I have.

761
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 5: A question that I hope you think is rad I

762
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 5: was wondering, when we analyze the universe using a spherical

763
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 5: coordinate system, would there be such thing as a plank angle,

764
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 5: That is, would there be such thing as an angle

765
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 5: below which we can't resolve the universe anymore? Finally, a

766
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 5: fundamental pixel of rat. Thanks, you guys are dope.

767
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 1: You're dope, Bro, I canna say we're rat and dope

768
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: and bro I like answing. I feel like he's our age.

769
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: He's using the same lingo.

770
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 2: I think his question is super awesome. I really love

771
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: this question.

772
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: Is it tubular? Totally tubular? Or is it ned? Oh?

773
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 2: I love it because it relates to the fundamental nature

774
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: of reality, but also to the systems we impose on

775
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: the way we think about it, Like does it matter

776
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: if you're thinking about the universe in xyz or in

777
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: polar coordinates and R data five? Does that have an

778
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 2: impact on the universe itself?

779
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, because, as we just talked about, the universe is

780
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: quantum mechanical, which means there's a minimum amount of energy

781
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: like matter can have. And that's also made physicists think

782
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: that maybe this quantumness applies to space itself.

783
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Quantum mechanics tells us that everything is discrete,

784
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 2: nothing is continuous. There are no smooth pass or no

785
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 2: real numbers. You can have like one electron or two electrons,

786
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: but not one point seven. That everything is like in

787
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 2: pixels or on a ladder. That things are chunked right,

788
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 2: not smooth. And that makes people wonder if space itself

789
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: is pixelated, if you assume in far enough on the

790
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 2: screen of reality, you can actually see those quantum pixels.

791
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a theory suggested by quantum mechanics and physicists,

792
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: sort of a candidate for what that a minimum distance

793
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: in the universe can be, right.

794
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 2: Sort of. I think this is really over sold. I mean,

795
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: we have like a back of the envelope sketch of

796
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: maybe the vicinity of the region in which that number

797
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 2: might fall, and we use it all the time because

798
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: it's the only estimate we have. But that doesn't make

799
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 2: it any good. You know, if we call this thing

800
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 2: the plank length, and you arrive at the plank length

801
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 2: by taking all the constants that we know about gravitational constant,

802
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 2: the speed of light, these kind of things, and arranging

803
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 2: them in a way, multiplying them by each other, square

804
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: rooting them, et cetera. Et cetera. So you get something

805
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 2: with units of distance, and that's saying, well, maybe that's

806
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 2: a fundamental number in the universe. Maybe that distance means something. Oh,

807
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: and also maybe it means that this one particular thing

808
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,879
Speaker 2: we're wondering about distance the shortest possible distance. It's very,

809
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 2: very handwavy kind of an.

810
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 1: Argument, right, But it's called the plank length, right.

811
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's called the plank length. Or you can make

812
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: a version of it in time, which is the plank time,

813
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 2: where you can make a version of it in energy,

814
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: which is the plank energy. So in general terms we

815
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 2: just call this the plank scale. It's a short distance,

816
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: high energy, short amount of time. And I want to

817
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 2: really emphasis that this is simultaneously like a terrible estimate

818
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 2: of this distance. It's like saying, you know what is

819
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 2: horror salary as a cartoonist, Well, I know that answer

820
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: is in dollars per year, and then just doing any

821
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 2: random calculation that gives you an answer with the right

822
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: units and saying, oh, the GDP of the US is

823
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: three trillion dollars per year, so therefore that must be

824
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: Horge salary because it has the right units.

825
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 1: I can't confirm or deny.

826
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 2: That just having the right units doesn't mean you're the

827
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: right answer right. On the other hand, it's the best

828
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: estimate we have because we have no idea how to

829
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: do anything better. So that's why you hear it battered

830
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 2: around a lot, because it's the best terrible estimate we have.

831
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's called the cham salary. It's the minimum of

832
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: money a human being can oh while still having fun

833
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 1: all the time.

834
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 2: Yes, I want to alert IRS agents who I might

835
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: be listening to the podcast that Jorges Return will feature

836
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 2: three trillion dollars this year.

837
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so we don't have any attorneys or CPA is.

838
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 2: Listening, right exactly. And that's a ridiculous example because it's

839
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 2: a terrible estimate, just like the plank length is.

840
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: It's sort of a tourt way to get at it,

841
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: but it's sort of like the idea is like, well,

842
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: we have all these fundamental things in the universe. If

843
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: you mix them up, maybe it gives you sort of

844
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: a sense of the length of things, below which the

845
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 1: universe just doesn't make sense.

846
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's probably correct to within a factor of ten

847
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 2: to the trillion. Yeah, there you go, by which I

848
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: mean ten and then the trillion.

849
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: Zeros like, sure, you don't know either way, right.

850
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: No, you don't know either way. You really have almost

851
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: no information. It could turn out to be totally bang on,

852
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: It could turn out to be close. It could turn

853
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: out to have nothing to do with the universe at all.

854
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: I see, I see how strong opinions about the plank length,

855
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: like you have more than a plank length of thoughts

856
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: and apparently negative feelings about the plank length.

857
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: I want our listeners to understand what we do know

858
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 2: and what we do not know. And I see in

859
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 2: popular science a lot that people refer to the plank

860
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 2: length as the minimum distance scale the universe. We don't

861
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 2: know if the universe has a minimum distance scale and

862
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: what it is, and if the planklength is anywhere close

863
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: to it.

864
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: There's a lot we don't know. But I think the

865
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: idea is that maybe it's like it's like a big maybe,

866
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: like maybe the universe has a minimum distance below which

867
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: things just don't exist or don't make sense, or it

868
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: things are fuzzy.

869
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 2: M hmm, exactly.

870
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: And you said that applies to distances and to time,

871
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: And now I think ANSWER's question AS's radical, awesome, totally

872
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: tubular question is can that idea be applied to angles,

873
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: like is there maybe a minimum angle to the universe?

874
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's really sort of asking what is the

875
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: most natural set of units for the universe? Is it x, y,

876
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 2: z or is it r A theta five? Where should

877
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 2: we apply this distance too, like what kind of unit?

878
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 2: An angle is particularly tricky because you know, if you

879
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,959
Speaker 2: make a triangle and you make it really really long,

880
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 2: the angles can get really really small. Imagine a triangle

881
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 2: it's like one millimeter on one side and a light

882
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 2: year on the other two sides, That angle would be pretty.

883
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,280
Speaker 1: Tiny and so almost zero, right.

884
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 2: Almost zero exactly. And so I think the short answer

885
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: to his question is that there shouldn't be the shortest

886
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: angle because we think that the Cartesian coordinate system is

887
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: a natural way to describe the universe. And that's because

888
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 2: those are the directions along which momentum is conserved. And

889
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 2: it's this conservation momentum and the uncertainty of momentum position

890
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 2: together that gives you the Plank constant, which gives you

891
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 2: the Plank scale, and that's naturally described in linear coordinates

892
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: an x, y, and z.

893
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're leaning towards no. But like, what

894
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: if I I don't know. Just take some of these

895
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: fundamental things in the universe, like the plank length and

896
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: maybe the distance of the universe, and I make a

897
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: triangle or one side is the plank length and the

898
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: other two sides are the width of the universe. Wouldn't

899
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: I get maybe a minimum angle to the universe?

900
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I love that construction. So you're imagining a

901
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 2: triangle one side is the plank length in like X,

902
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: and then the other point of the triangles across the universe.

903
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 2: Would that effectively be a minimum angle? And the answer

904
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 2: there is yes. If the universe has a finite size,

905
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 2: that would limit the size of your triangle in one direction,

906
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 2: and so it would be a minimum opening angle of

907
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 2: that triangle. But we don't know if the universe is

908
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: finite in size or if it's infinite. If the universe

909
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: is infinite in size, then there's no limit to the

910
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 2: size of your triangle. You can have a plank length

911
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 2: on one side and infinite lengths on the other side,

912
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: making that angle zero.

913
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: I wonder if you need an infinite universe to disprove

914
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: an infinitely small angle, like couldn't you have an infinite

915
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: universe but also have a minimum angle. Right, Like, you

916
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: can have an infinite universe and still have a minimum

917
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: distance or minimum time even though time might be infinite.

918
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: Couldn't that also apply to angles?

919
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I love this question because anytime I make

920
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 2: an argument, there's like two different possible loopholes. You can

921
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: go the other way and here there I think there

922
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 2: are really two different loopholes. One is you don't even

923
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: need an infinite universe. You just need like a curved universe.

924
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: Imagine a universe that's closed what it loops around on itself.

925
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 2: And principle, you could draw a triangle that like loops

926
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 2: around on itself, like on the surface of a sphere

927
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 2: that's essentially infinite, right, And in that case you could

928
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: have an arbitrarily small angle. And the other side, I

929
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: think you're asking about whether angle itself could be fundamentally limited,

930
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: not as a product of the limitation of space or time,

931
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: but angle itself could be fundamentally limited, and it's a possibility.

932
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: We know that quantum mechanics has a very strong relationship

933
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: to angles two rotations. For example, we know that angular

934
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: momentum how you spin is quantized whereas linear momentum like

935
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: how you move, is not quantized. I mean, you can

936
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: have any value of kinetic energy of velocity as you

937
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: fly through space, but there are certain limited values of

938
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: angular momentum that are allowed. So angles are in some

939
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 2: sense more naturally quantized than distances.

940
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 1: But I think you're referring to quantum spin, right, are

941
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: you referring to quantum spin?

942
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 2: Well, quantum spin is an example of Angler momentum, and

943
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 2: it's also quantized. But even just angular momentum is quantized,

944
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,479
Speaker 2: like the Angler momentum of the electron in its quote

945
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 2: unquote orbit around the nucleus is quantized for the same

946
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: reason that the electron energy levels themselves are quantized. That

947
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 2: it overlaps on itself. The electron state envelops the entire

948
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 2: atom and overlaps itself, and so it has to satisfy

949
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: certain boundary conditions, which is where quantization comes from. So

950
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 2: not just quantum spin. Even orbital angular momentum like the

951
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: Earth going around the Sun, is quantized.

952
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: But couldn't you say the same about its distance, like

953
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: the width of its orbit, Perhaps that it's also quantized.

954
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 2: In that way, you can always relate angular momentum to

955
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: linear momentum. That's true, right, Anglementum in the end is

956
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 2: just linear momentum around an axis, but the angler momentum

957
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 2: is quantized that the linear momentum is not. And that's

958
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 2: something we don't understand, I think, more deeply than what

959
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 2: I've already explained. But it points to angles being important

960
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 2: to quantum mechanics. I've never seen a calculation directly of

961
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 2: the plank angle. One issue is that radiance, for example,

962
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 2: although they're super rad they really have no units other

963
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: than radiance. They're just numbers, and so it's not hard

964
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 2: to put together fundamental constants to just give you a number.

965
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 2: But then interpreting as an angle is kind of a stretch.

966
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: But I guess you know, just like you can't assume

967
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: that the universe has a minimum distance or pixel to

968
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: it just because electrons are quantized, you know, you also

969
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: can't assume that, just because angler momentum is quantized, that

970
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: the universe itself has a minimum angle to it.

971
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, you can't. It's just suggestive. It just tells

972
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 2: you that angles are kind of quantum mechanical. It's not

973
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 2: a concrete proof or even really a strong piece of

974
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 2: evidence that angles themselves are quantized, and if I had

975
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 2: to guess, I would guess that they're not. I think

976
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 2: probably the universe is infinite, and you can draw as

977
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: long a triangle as you want with the smallest angle possible.

978
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 1: Are you also guessing that it doesn't have a minimum distance.

979
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 2: Even if it does have a minimum linear distance. If

980
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 2: the universe is infinite, remember, you could make as long

981
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: a triangle as you want, and so as small as

982
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 2: angle as you want. I think that's probably the universe

983
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 2: that we.

984
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 1: Live in, if it's infinite. If the universe is infinite.

985
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 2: If the universe is infinite, which again we don't know.

986
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: I wonder even if it's not infinite, like if you

987
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: start to get into limits of like just practicality, like

988
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: at some point it's so far away you can never

989
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: measure this triangle, right, Yeah.

990
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: That's a good point. Because of relativity, the idea that

991
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: a triangle could exist across the universe is a fuzzy

992
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 2: notion because points separated in distance are not well defined

993
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: in time, and so like measuring a triangle across the universe,

994
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 2: can such a triangle even really exist?

995
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: And I guess then in that case, and this gets

996
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 1: very philosophical the limitation is not like a fundamental property

997
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,280
Speaker 1: of the universe. It's just like it's just not possible

998
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 1: to do it. But it might be there.

999
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly the same way that like some of the

1000
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 2: velocities we talk about with galaxies. We talk about those velocities,

1001
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: but you could never actually measure them. In the same way,

1002
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 2: it might be something you couldn't actually measure, even if

1003
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 2: it isn't the fundamental property of the universe.

1004
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: All right, Well, then it sounds like the answer for

1005
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: Anson is that it possible that the universe has a

1006
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: minimum rad angle to it. But Daniel the physicist says, no, bro,

1007
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 1: I don't think that's true, which is totally a bummer dude.

1008
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 2: But I do like the idea that there's a minimum

1009
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 2: amount of rad in the universe. You know. It's just

1010
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 2: sort of like relaxing to know that, no matter what

1011
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: you do, there'd be a minimum radness to the universe.

1012
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody's rad everybody has a minimum amount of rad.

1013
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 2: If there's a minimum radness and the universe is infinite,

1014
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: that technically means it's an infinite amount of radness for

1015
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 2: us all out there to enjoy.

1016
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess. You just need to look closely, I guess,

1017
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: or keep asking questions.

1018
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:40,959
Speaker 2: That's the recipe for a happy life.

1019
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now the big question is do you want fries

1020
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 1: with that?

1021
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 2: Daniel?

1022
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: Do you want fries with that?

1023
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 2: Bro depends? Is the cartoonist paying with this trillion dollar salary?

1024
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,720
Speaker 1: No, there's a minimum amount of generosity that a cartoonists have. Okay,

1025
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 1: McDonald's are too expensive.

1026
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,919
Speaker 2: Apparently, all right, I know what our friendship is worth.

1027
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: All right. Well, that answers all of our questions for today.

1028
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: We'll be answering more questions in future episodes. If you

1029
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 1: have a question, please send it in.

1030
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 2: Write to me directly Daniel Whitson at gmail dot com,

1031
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 2: or write to us to questions at Danielanhorge dot com,

1032
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 2: or find us on Twitter just google us. We're not

1033
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 2: hard to find and we really do answer all of

1034
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 2: our emails.

1035
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: All right. Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for

1036
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: joining us, See you next time.

1037
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

1038
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

1039
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1040
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows,