WEBVTT - BOOK CLUB: Daredevil: Born Again by Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:07.320 Warning, Today's episode contains spoilers for the graphic novel, which 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:11.280 is a collection of several issues of Daredevil from the 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:31.200 year nineteen eighty six. You need spoilers for Daredevil Born Again. Hello, 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.559 my Nammy, Jason comes on and I'm Rosey Night and 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:36.559 welcome back to Text Revision, the podcast where we dive 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.840 deep with your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture. 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.559 Wi our podcasts, we're we're bringing you three huge episodes 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:43.839 a week. 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:46.240 In today's episode, it's finally time. 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:48.360 Me and Jason are going to get to nut out. 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.519 In our very first book club episode. You guys have 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.360 been sending us questions, We're going to answer them. And 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:59.200 today we're talking about dared Devil Born Again by Frank 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:01.520 Miller of the mass a Calli Boom. 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:08.440 Hey. Let's do a quick summary of this this incredible 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:14.080 story arc. Setting the stage, Matt the law Firm, it's 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.960 in trouble. They're shutting down, They're they're packing up the 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:23.240 place because Matt and Foggy are very bad at running 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.840 a business. Apparently so the the law firm is not 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:33.360 doing well. And also Foggy has been hanging out with 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:40.720 Matt's x Glory and you know, Matt is a very 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:45.840 hard guy to get to know and Foggy is a 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:47.560 very easy guy to get to know, and there's some 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.120 feelings developing there. So that's kind of like where we 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:55.360 start when this story begins. And the story begins with 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:59.279 Karen Page, who is down on our luck and probably 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.040 the weakest part of this story, then I think we 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:05.440 both found to be I'll just pause for a second 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.240 the recap to just say I was delighted to find 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.600 on the reread. One of many rereads, but certainly this 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:13.799 time the most recent reread. It's been a little while 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.240 since I had read it. This story remains really good. 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.519 It's great, it holds up, it's really good. 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.840 I totally agree with you, and I think one of 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.840 the most interesting things about this is when I first 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:31.600 started my career in this industry, I would write extensively 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:33.640 about misogyny and comic. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:34.840 Books, and this is a book. 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:38.560 I think the biggest failing here is that Karen doesn't 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:43.480 really get like much interior life outside of right things 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:45.600 going very badly for her, which is kind of what 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.360 we see, and the story opens with her doing something 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.200 kind of unforgivable, and there is not a lot of 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:57.840 great work on Karen's character, but generally because many books 0:02:57.880 --> 0:02:59.880 from this era in the in the late eighties war 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:04.359 extremely misogynistic, generally, this really holds up as actually like 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:07.360 a pretty fantastic story, and as some of our readers 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:11.639 pointed out, there are interesting women within this story that 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.040 don't fall into the Karen Page trope. So also, David 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:19.400 Masacelli's art is like so unbelievable in this book that 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:23.120 I think it just kept me engrossed on every single page. 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:27.160 So Karen Page has been going through it. She is 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:33.880 addicted to heroin, she has been engaging in sex work, 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:37.960 which you don't want to do. And now finally, at 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.640 her most desperate moment, she sells the thing that she 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:43.560 has that she thinks is the world will find the 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:48.040 most valuable, and that is the secret identity of Daredevil. 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:54.000 Matt Murroch, the you know, hard scrabble street fighting lawyer 0:03:54.720 --> 0:04:01.440 is by night the crime fighter Daredevil. This information quickly 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:05.720 moves up the criminal chain to the kingpin, who is 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:10.680 like on a yacht somewhere with all those contenants fantastic 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:17.120 looking incredible shorts, shorts, shorts, Wilson fisk and shorts and 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:18.640 sandals love and. 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:20.880 He yeah, I have to say, we're going to talk 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.480 about our favorite panels. But I was going through when 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:26.480 I was reading this on Hoofla and screen grabbing and 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:31.240 that first shot of Wilson Fisk and it's pink and 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.960 it is just it's so fantastic, and yeah, I mean, 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.920 what a book. I gotta say as well, Christy Shield 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:44.120 on colors here just unbelievable colorists like and it's so 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.599 similar to what's fantastic about Year one in the discord. 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.080 I've been telling everyone, if you love this art, go 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.880 and look at Year one because it's those saturated pinks, 0:04:54.040 --> 0:05:01.840 those wild giant speech that the wild giant sound effects 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:06.160 like the huge blams and fill the panel. This is 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:10.039 such a dynamic and engaging book, and it starts out 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:11.640 as soon as. 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:12.400 We see Kingpin. 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:14.160 You think, oh, this is going to be something a 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.640 little bit different. This is going to be something that 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:18.919 people are going to remember. And obviously it has become 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:22.880 that book. But tell us about Kingpin's plan because it's great. 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.040 So we already mentioned that, you know, Nelson Murdoch is 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.280 they're packing up like they're basically out of business. But 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:37.440 the Kingpin decides We're going to strangle Matt slowly with bureaucracy, 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:43.240 with all the corrupt ways that I can reach out 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.040 and strangle Matt. I'm going to do it. He freezes. 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:52.760 He has Matt's bank accounts frozen. He has his law 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:58.280 license revoked, basically alleging causing a witness to allege or 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.800 a witness, a twenty year police veteran with a spotless reputation, 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:06.039 alleges that Matt bribed a witness. He's got his friends now, 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.080 and all of a sudden, like even Foggy is like 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.880 doubting him. And then while Matt is trying to unravel 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:14.600 all of this and trying to figure out like what 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.520 there must be some kind of mistake and how can 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.840 this be? He returns home and just as he's coming 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:25.680 back home, his brownstone is blown up. And while this 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:30.359 is there's this incredible panel again we'll talk about our 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.040 favorite panels. But like he's kneeling in the rubble, and 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:37.360 he finds his Daredevil costumes, like basically the only thing 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.520 that really survived the destruction, and he says Kingpin, like 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:43.280 I never would have connected this to you. Nothing in 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.279 anything that's going on, said organized crime. But you shouldn't 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.200 have signed it. And now Matt is on a full 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:54.719 downward violent spiral to like get back at the Kingpin. 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:00.400 So step two in Wilson Fisk's plan is happening. Uh, 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:05.400 just as he envisioned. Matt is steadily spiraling towards the bottom, 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.120 and the Kingpin is deciding to just like put his 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:13.440 meaty foot on the Matt's neck and continue to push 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:19.160 him down. He Matt is seeing the Kingpin behind every interaction, 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.000 behind everyone who he sees on the n sees but 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:26.000 senses on the street, and he's falling very very quickly 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:33.200 into a level of really terrifying paranoia and almost like 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:41.080 almost drug induced like violent outbursts even though he and 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:43.720 drug guy, Yeah, he's just he's. 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:46.440 Losing grip on reality for sure. 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.440 And every step of the way as Matt, you know, 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:55.560 like is like lashing out at criminals on the subway 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.120 to the point like being much more violent than he 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:01.880 ever has been, as he is going to various criminal 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.360 layers and beating the shit out of people and screaming, 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:09.160 where's the Kingpin? The Kingpin is getting all of these reports, 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.280 getting all the video feeds, and he is watching it 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:19.120 and is absolutely absolutely loving it. Finally men, he finally 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:25.160 Matt is he is so weakened by everything that's happened, 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.840 and his grip on reality is like almost gone. And 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:31.240 he tries to like break up a robbery. Two like 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:36.280 street criminals who Matt would have no problem taking out 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.040 previously get the better of him and they stab him 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:41.719 and he's just bleeding out. He's going to die in 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:47.679 the gutter, but Sister Maggie, of a local nun, finds him, 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:53.040 patches him up, takes him in. We learn that Sister 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:57.239 Maggie in a shocking reveal that's basically just like a throwaway, 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.640 that Sister Maggie is his actual old They just kind 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:03.839 of drop that and throw it away. 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.680 This is your mom she in case the Catholicism and Christianity, 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.080 your mom is a nun. Also interesting to bring up here, 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:14.840 as we're going to talk about this more throughout the episode, 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:18.160 but we met sister Maggie in season three of Dead Levil, 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:22.440 so this has already been deeply taken from Ben Urick, 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.480 another major player in this story. He was obviously a 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.800 huge part of Dead Devil season one. We spoke, we talked, 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:31.240 we're going to talk about. 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:31.600 In our rekit. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.839 He's fantastic, but his fate in season one means that 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:37.679 we're probably not going to see him again here. So 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.880 there's some very interesting conversation to be had about how 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:44.040 much Born Again has actually already been adapted in the 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.319 first three Netflix Dead Level series. 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:51.680 But now the Kingpin with Matt Murdoch basically potentially dead 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:56.760 and whereabouts kind of unknown, although the Kingpin is keeping 0:09:56.840 --> 0:10:01.199 track of now the Kingpin pushes it to he decides, 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:06.000 you know what, I'm going to now completely ruin Matt's 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:11.839 Daredevil persona by finding like basically a psychotic like serial killer, 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:19.880 having him released from a mental institution. Forcing Melvin aka Gladiator, 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:26.440 the former street level jewel thief and villain who went 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.600 straight with the help of Matt Murdoch and Foggy Nelson, 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:34.400 force Melvin, who is a costume maker for heroes on 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.520 the side, force him to make a exact replica of 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.880 Daredevil's costume. They're going to give it to this crazed 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.040 serial killer and just like set him loose and like 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:48.400 have him now ruined Daredevil's reputation by committing murders. Matt, 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:52.839 now healthy, goes, he fights this guy and he beats 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:57.360 the Daredevil knockoff, and now the Kingpin, who's pushed it 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:00.520 too far with this Daredevil knockoff, pushes it even further 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:04.880 by having a general that he has in his pocket 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:09.960 released to him. The latest and most troubling and most 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:16.120 fascistic example of America's continued attempts to create other super 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:20.320 soldiers like Steve Rogers. Nuke Nuke is an ultra right 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:26.480 wing super soldier addicted to pills who has been working 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:32.760 to destabilize various countries in Latin America. He is pulled 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:37.679 out of Nicaragua and unleashed on Hell's kitchen with the 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:42.040 hopes Kingpin hopes that he'll you know, kill Matt Murdock 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:46.800 and everybody that Matt Murrack clubs because he's had enough. Well, 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.959 this is really the thing that causes the entire scheme 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:55.640 to unravel. Daredevil, with the help of some Avengers, beats Nuke. 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.360 Captain America is drawn into this in what is one 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:03.080 of the best cameos I think of a like major 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:08.040 character in another story in certainly Marvel History, Like, you 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:13.000 get so much of what makes Captain America like actually 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:17.000 a great character in this. Yeah, he is so disappointed 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:22.880 in his country in the continued obsession with super soldiers, 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.400 with what they've done to this young man who has 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:31.000 become nuke, and he helps Matt bring the whole thing down. 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.400 In the end, Matt beats the Kingpin in his office 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:39.720 in a tremendous fight, and he and Karen literally walk 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:44.040 off into the sunset together, and Frank Miller then exits 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:50.080 the exits the title with that final panel and does 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:54.160 a thing that you never see in ongoing titles, which 0:12:54.280 --> 0:13:00.240 is create a hard stopping point of the story way 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.000 that really causes troubles, Like if you're going to read 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.000 this in the context of the of the Daredevil ongoing 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.079 run when you get to the next issue, which I 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.240 think Mark Runwald is the yest writer, because again Frank 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:15.560 Miller was just like now I'm out. Fine. It's really jarring. 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:18.800 As a kid when you get to the end of 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.640 one of those arcs and their art changers and the 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.319 writer changes, and suddenly you're like, wait a minute, like 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.040 what happened? How how did this come to me? But 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:31.360 of course then you know, I'm a huge proponent of 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.679 the the JR jr. And an Inacenti stuff, so we 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.440 get all these different great dead level talking points. But yeah, 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.080 I mean, and what a story to read this back. 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.200 Also again Nuke, a character we saw in season one 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.880 and two of Dad Devil. They've actually taken so much 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.640 of this book for the Defender's kind of Netflix universe, 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.280 which I found really interesting on reading it back, because 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:02.920 it is issues to do so to basically, you know, 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.679 two thirty one essentially you could get too thirty two, 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:11.720 two thirty three. It's it's barely you know, twenty issues, 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:14.720 and it is so influential. 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.360 Jason, what was your biggest takeaway re reading it for 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:18.000 the book club? 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.880 How good it is? Like it has its reputation for 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:27.200 a reason. You know, I was, I was. I was 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.760 kind of feeling a little bit of trepidation going back 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:31.880 and wondering, God, like, is it as good as I remember? 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.840 And it is as good. It's as good as I remember. 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:40.400 Why this was such a crucial graphic novel for me 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.560 and my like love affair with comics because it really 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:49.320 is literary in a way that many comics of that 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:53.200 era were not. Like the descriptions, the way the way 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.480 the writing worked with the panels, the layouts of the 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:58.000 panel That's the other thing. If you're gonna read this 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:02.320 on digital, I know, you know some people's eyesight, mine included, 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:04.880 is not great. And sometimes you want to zoom in 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.440 and do the guided view where you blow up the 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:10.320 panel right and then you just swipe through. Don't do 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.400 that because or if you do do that, allow yourself 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.280 to look at the layout first. Because Masie Kelly's layouts, 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:22.720 his layouts are amazing storytelling device. 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.000 So Rosen's lettering is so incredible. 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.760 There's this great moment when Matt is left on the 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.720 ground and he is being rescued, and it's like you 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:37.960 see Matt half down the side, and then there's one, two, three, four, five, six, 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:43.320 seven panels where it's just huge text in bright pink Son, 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:44.680 can you hear me? Son? 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.080 The doctors they say you'll be fine, Son, You're a 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:47.840 hero boy. 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.880 Really, it looks unlike anything else, while still feeling very 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.080 akin to that kind of mid to late eighties style because. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:59.600 Of Miller being Miller and mas Kelly being mass Kelly. Yeah. 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.200 I also, something I really loved that I had never 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:11.320 kind of revisited in the same way is that every 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:15.720 I didn't realize how much intentional repetition there was like 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:20.400 every issue opens with Matt laying down and he kind 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.840 of he starts off relaxing in his bed, and he 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.560 ends up, you know, curled up in the fetal position 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:30.880 in an alleyway, and it's kind of this transition just 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.560 shown through one thing, how comfortable he was in his 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.800 beautiful New York apartment, in his nice probably like you know, 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:41.400 two hundred count Egyptian sheets or whatever, and then just 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:46.920 by Wilson Fisk's sheer malevolence and scheming, he ends up 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:50.280 you know, homeless on the street. And I think there's 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:55.880 so much interesting visual narrative storytelling in this book that 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.720 just really stands the test of time and also feels 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:03.560 mad simply influential on the people who are making comics. 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:09.159 Now, Oh yeah, this is clearly a remains a touchstone. 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:14.040 Pieces I want to talk about, like when another thing 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.800 that I really loved is just the again the Captain 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.040 America stuff, when he comes in, like there's this moment 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:25.960 where he's like he throughout his very brief appearance in 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:30.080 this story, it's like an issue basically little less than 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:34.840 an issue. When he's working with Matt, Miller is able 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:39.080 to like put in so much pathos where you realize 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:43.320 that Captain America is like, he's like they people don't 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:45.680 believe in this shit anymore. They think it's dumb, like 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:48.359 that what am I doing? I'm doing this and nobody 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:51.000 believes in what I'm doing anymore. Look at like what's happened. 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.360 Look at this guy Nuke, look at what the country's become. 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.119 Look at the General's fucking lying to me, lying to 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.280 my face about like what they're doing. Nobody believes in 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.440 what I'm doing anymore? What is this all for? And 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:05.320 I found that like so affecting. I was like, Wow, 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:11.119 It's like it's just like really amazing how good this 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:15.600 story is and how many things are in here that 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:20.639 feel like if I was writing a story today, I 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.040 might use this device, I might use this plot point. 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:25.479 I'm like, I would like I would hope to make 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.720 a scene that is in this style that is as 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:34.439 good as the scene when Wilson Fisk is like seducing 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.240 Nuke into working for him, Like he has his office 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:42.440 tricked out with all the American paraphernalia. Yeah, and he's like, 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:47.080 you know they don't our boys have been downtroden. Nobody 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.840 respects our soldiers anymore they don't respect the flag anymore, 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.160 but I know you do. And the way he seduces him, 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:57.119 like Jesus Christ, this feels like twenty twenty five, like 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:16.159 it's it's just incredible. What were your thoughts, what were 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:17.720 your takeaways upon rereading this? 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:19.760 Yeah, I agree with all of that. 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:24.000 I think the nuke stuff feels just horribly relevant right now, 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:28.680 even though this is a book that is literally decades old, 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.880 Like the book is older than me, and the nuke. 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:34.040 Stuff feels so relevant. 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.879 Something I thought was deeply cool that we often don't 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.560 get in comics. I loved how much they showed the 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.960 Kingpin growing his strength and. 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.160 Kind of like working a king out. 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.120 And I just thought that was really interesting because often 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.720 with a character like you know, the Blob or the Kingpin, 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.960 they're just like, this is a fat character, and maybe 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:00.400 he's strong, or maybe he's just really fat. I kind 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.680 of loved the way that they showed Kingpin's prowess and 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.119 they showed his strength, and they showed him beating the 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:09.639 share out of people. Also, on a hilarious note, I 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.600 don't think there's ever been a comic that used the 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:21.840 sound effect FAP more than this comic that's a different meaning. 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:22.160 Now. 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:25.720 It's so funny because they Yeah. 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:29.240 The notable one to me is is Matt's nightstick hitting 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:30.760 like Kingpin's belly. 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:32.520 Yeah, yeah, I love that one. 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:37.159 Also, I thought, I love the kind of use of 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:41.320 silence in this comic and how often Frank Miller for 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:43.439 being such a kind of scene as such, like an 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:47.520 autor style creator in this book. As a writer, he 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.680 understands the power of days of David Masikelly's art. There's 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:55.280 lots of silent panels. There's lots of massive splash pages 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.680 that begin and end the issues, which I love. I 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:01.639 do think, you know, I I would love to have 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.600 seen a world where, you know, when we're talking about 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.840 something like The Dark Knight Returns, another one of Frank 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:11.159 Miller's very famous books that came out within like a 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:15.159 year of this, which is completely ridiculous, but you know, 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.119 he was with Lim Valle at the time, who was 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:20.960 a colorist, and you got this really cool representation of 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:25.760 Carrie Kelly as you know, a female Robin and I 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.560 do I just I know Christy Scherr was working on 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:30.959 those colors, and I just I don't I wish there 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:33.960 had been someone who had been like, hey, let's give 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:34.679 Karen like. 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.840 A little bit more to chew on, like this idea 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:39.160 of her. 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:41.760 As just like a drug addict, and also the kind 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.480 of weird moralistic idea of like people who have addictions 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:48.480 can't be trusted and there is like levels to that, 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:51.160 but it's very black and white. But I will say 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.600 rereading this as someone who is looking at it with 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.280 a more critical eye, with a more thematic eye, I 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:01.720 did find it very interesting how much kind of Catholic 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:08.359 and Christian kind of story thematics there are here, with 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:13.320 like resurrections and downfalls and the importance of the church. 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:15.640 When Matt gets found by system Maggie, he's. 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:20.040 Kind of laying in that reclining Jesus position that we 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:22.480 know so well when he awakes in the hospital. So 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:24.399 I think in that way, having this kind of more 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:27.560 black and white sense of what morality is makes sense. 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:29.639 And also, you know who else is going through it 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.560 in this book, Matt Murdoch, Like that man is going 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:35.680 through it just as equally as bad as Karen, and 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:38.760 I kind of love as someone who loves a tragic romance. 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:44.119 I do love the way that that allows him and 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.520 her to kind of still connect throughout this book no 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.360 matter what. They kind of have that tragic romance, which 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:52.080 I am a fan of that trope. 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:59.080 I found myself really drawn in a way that I 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:01.480 don't remember remember being in the past. To the Ben 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:04.720 Urick scenes. I think this is the best Yuruk there's been. 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:08.000 Urick is still like an active character, of course, and 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:12.240 then in Marvel Comics most recently. I think he's probably 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:18.159 most recently notable for being part of Orcus's scheme against 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:21.680 the x Men and the krakoa era that said, like 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:28.280 Uric his bravery in the face of constant threats against 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:31.520 his life and his family's life by the Kingpin to 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:37.240 pursue the Kingpins story and doggedly reveal that Matt Murdoch 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:40.960 was framed by the Kingpin, despite the fact that like 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:45.200 Kingpin calls him at work, or the assassin the Kingpin 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:47.960 hires calls him at work and makes him listen to 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:53.200 the murder of a witness, like attacks him in his home. 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:55.399 Like There's so many things that happen to Ben and 0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:57.879 he follows through, and it's very difficult for him to 0:23:57.920 --> 0:23:58.440 follow through. 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.760 I think that part of it was very powerful in 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:03.720 twenty twenty five. It's so powerless. 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:05.359 It's really powerful stuff. 0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:09.280 Yeah, I thought it was amazing. Okay, So one of 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:12.320 our first questions from Discord, which I think is a 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:16.119 great question, it's basically like, first if you asked, what 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:19.680 is the legacy of Born Again outside of the shows, like, 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:22.679 did the run out of any influences on comic books 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:24.440 both inside and outside of Dad. 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:28.120 Everl Well, I think we first have to zoom out. 0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:31.399 It was hugely influential, but I think beyond that, this 0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:33.600 is thes came out in eighty six and eighty six 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:36.359 I think is what a yeah, baby, you're talking about 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:40.720 one of the best years in comics ever, and Daredevil 0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:44.439 Born Again is part of that. There's also the X Men, 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:48.760 like the X Men were franchised off into X Factor 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:51.919 like New Mutants and X Men like it became they 0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:55.480 became a crossover sensation where Marvel kind of like was like, Okay, 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:58.800 we realized that X Men is like our biggest franchise. 0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:01.879 Let's really blow it out. You had Watchmen and The 0:25:02.040 --> 0:25:03.040 Dark Knight Returns. 0:25:03.280 --> 0:25:06.520 Crazy that you had those two seminal books. This is 0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:07.800 the dark and Gritty era. 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:10.400 The latter being also Frank Miller, so like that you're 0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:17.720 really seeing like the literalization, like the adultification, if you will, 0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:21.400 of comics, particularly with Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns. 0:25:21.160 --> 0:25:25.000 Their late seventies. Throughout the eighties there were these great books. 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:29.520 Denny Cohen's The Question was one of the early ones 0:25:29.600 --> 0:25:32.719