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Speaker 1: Warning, Today's episode contains spoilers for the graphic novel, which

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Speaker 1: is a collection of several issues of Daredevil from the

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Speaker 1: year nineteen eighty six. You need spoilers for Daredevil Born Again. Hello,

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Speaker 1: my Nammy, Jason comes on and I'm Rosey Night and

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Speaker 1: welcome back to Text Revision, the podcast where we dive

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Speaker 1: deep with your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture.

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Speaker 1: Wi our podcasts, we're we're bringing you three huge episodes

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Speaker 1: a week.

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Speaker 2: In today's episode, it's finally time.

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Speaker 3: Me and Jason are going to get to nut out.

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Speaker 3: In our very first book club episode. You guys have

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Speaker 3: been sending us questions, We're going to answer them. And

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Speaker 3: today we're talking about dared Devil Born Again by Frank

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Speaker 3: Miller of the mass a Calli Boom.

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Speaker 1: Hey. Let's do a quick summary of this this incredible

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Speaker 1: story arc. Setting the stage, Matt the law Firm, it's

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Speaker 1: in trouble. They're shutting down, They're they're packing up the

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Speaker 1: place because Matt and Foggy are very bad at running

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Speaker 1: a business. Apparently so the the law firm is not

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Speaker 1: doing well. And also Foggy has been hanging out with

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Speaker 1: Matt's x Glory and you know, Matt is a very

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Speaker 1: hard guy to get to know and Foggy is a

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Speaker 1: very easy guy to get to know, and there's some

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Speaker 1: feelings developing there. So that's kind of like where we

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Speaker 1: start when this story begins. And the story begins with

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Speaker 1: Karen Page, who is down on our luck and probably

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Speaker 1: the weakest part of this story, then I think we

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Speaker 1: both found to be I'll just pause for a second

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Speaker 1: the recap to just say I was delighted to find

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Speaker 1: on the reread. One of many rereads, but certainly this

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Speaker 1: time the most recent reread. It's been a little while

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Speaker 1: since I had read it. This story remains really good.

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Speaker 1: It's great, it holds up, it's really good.

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Speaker 3: I totally agree with you, and I think one of

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Speaker 3: the most interesting things about this is when I first

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Speaker 3: started my career in this industry, I would write extensively

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Speaker 3: about misogyny and comic.

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Speaker 2: Books, and this is a book.

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Speaker 3: I think the biggest failing here is that Karen doesn't

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Speaker 3: really get like much interior life outside of right things

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Speaker 3: going very badly for her, which is kind of what

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Speaker 3: we see, and the story opens with her doing something

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Speaker 3: kind of unforgivable, and there is not a lot of

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Speaker 3: great work on Karen's character, but generally because many books

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Speaker 3: from this era in the in the late eighties war

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Speaker 3: extremely misogynistic, generally, this really holds up as actually like

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Speaker 3: a pretty fantastic story, and as some of our readers

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Speaker 3: pointed out, there are interesting women within this story that

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Speaker 3: don't fall into the Karen Page trope. So also, David

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Speaker 3: Masacelli's art is like so unbelievable in this book that

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Speaker 3: I think it just kept me engrossed on every single page.

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Speaker 1: So Karen Page has been going through it. She is

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Speaker 1: addicted to heroin, she has been engaging in sex work,

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Speaker 1: which you don't want to do. And now finally, at

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Speaker 1: her most desperate moment, she sells the thing that she

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Speaker 1: has that she thinks is the world will find the

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Speaker 1: most valuable, and that is the secret identity of Daredevil.

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Speaker 1: Matt Murroch, the you know, hard scrabble street fighting lawyer

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Speaker 1: is by night the crime fighter Daredevil. This information quickly

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Speaker 1: moves up the criminal chain to the kingpin, who is

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Speaker 1: like on a yacht somewhere with all those contenants fantastic

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Speaker 1: looking incredible shorts, shorts, shorts, Wilson fisk and shorts and

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Speaker 1: sandals love and.

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Speaker 3: He yeah, I have to say, we're going to talk

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Speaker 3: about our favorite panels. But I was going through when

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Speaker 3: I was reading this on Hoofla and screen grabbing and

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Speaker 3: that first shot of Wilson Fisk and it's pink and

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Speaker 3: it is just it's so fantastic, and yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 3: what a book. I gotta say as well, Christy Shield

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Speaker 3: on colors here just unbelievable colorists like and it's so

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Speaker 3: similar to what's fantastic about Year one in the discord.

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Speaker 3: I've been telling everyone, if you love this art, go

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Speaker 3: and look at Year one because it's those saturated pinks,

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Speaker 3: those wild giant speech that the wild giant sound effects

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Speaker 3: like the huge blams and fill the panel. This is

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Speaker 3: such a dynamic and engaging book, and it starts out

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Speaker 3: as soon as.

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Speaker 2: We see Kingpin.

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Speaker 3: You think, oh, this is going to be something a

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Speaker 3: little bit different. This is going to be something that

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Speaker 3: people are going to remember. And obviously it has become

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Speaker 3: that book. But tell us about Kingpin's plan because it's great.

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Speaker 1: So we already mentioned that, you know, Nelson Murdoch is

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Speaker 1: they're packing up like they're basically out of business. But

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Speaker 1: the Kingpin decides We're going to strangle Matt slowly with bureaucracy,

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Speaker 1: with all the corrupt ways that I can reach out

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Speaker 1: and strangle Matt. I'm going to do it. He freezes.

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Speaker 1: He has Matt's bank accounts frozen. He has his law

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Speaker 1: license revoked, basically alleging causing a witness to allege or

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Speaker 1: a witness, a twenty year police veteran with a spotless reputation,

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Speaker 1: alleges that Matt bribed a witness. He's got his friends now,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, like even Foggy is like

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Speaker 1: doubting him. And then while Matt is trying to unravel

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Speaker 1: all of this and trying to figure out like what

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Speaker 1: there must be some kind of mistake and how can

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Speaker 1: this be? He returns home and just as he's coming

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Speaker 1: back home, his brownstone is blown up. And while this

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Speaker 1: is there's this incredible panel again we'll talk about our

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Speaker 1: favorite panels. But like he's kneeling in the rubble, and

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Speaker 1: he finds his Daredevil costumes, like basically the only thing

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Speaker 1: that really survived the destruction, and he says Kingpin, like

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Speaker 1: I never would have connected this to you. Nothing in

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Speaker 1: anything that's going on, said organized crime. But you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have signed it. And now Matt is on a full

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Speaker 1: downward violent spiral to like get back at the Kingpin.

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Speaker 1: So step two in Wilson Fisk's plan is happening. Uh,

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Speaker 1: just as he envisioned. Matt is steadily spiraling towards the bottom,

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Speaker 1: and the Kingpin is deciding to just like put his

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Speaker 1: meaty foot on the Matt's neck and continue to push

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Speaker 1: him down. He Matt is seeing the Kingpin behind every interaction,

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Speaker 1: behind everyone who he sees on the n sees but

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Speaker 1: senses on the street, and he's falling very very quickly

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Speaker 1: into a level of really terrifying paranoia and almost like

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Speaker 1: almost drug induced like violent outbursts even though he and

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Speaker 1: drug guy, Yeah, he's just he's.

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Speaker 2: Losing grip on reality for sure.

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Speaker 1: And every step of the way as Matt, you know,

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Speaker 1: like is like lashing out at criminals on the subway

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Speaker 1: to the point like being much more violent than he

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Speaker 1: ever has been, as he is going to various criminal

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Speaker 1: layers and beating the shit out of people and screaming,

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Speaker 1: where's the Kingpin? The Kingpin is getting all of these reports,

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Speaker 1: getting all the video feeds, and he is watching it

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Speaker 1: and is absolutely absolutely loving it. Finally men, he finally

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Speaker 1: Matt is he is so weakened by everything that's happened,

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Speaker 1: and his grip on reality is like almost gone. And

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Speaker 1: he tries to like break up a robbery. Two like

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Speaker 1: street criminals who Matt would have no problem taking out

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Speaker 1: previously get the better of him and they stab him

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Speaker 1: and he's just bleeding out. He's going to die in

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Speaker 1: the gutter, but Sister Maggie, of a local nun, finds him,

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Speaker 1: patches him up, takes him in. We learn that Sister

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Speaker 1: Maggie in a shocking reveal that's basically just like a throwaway,

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Speaker 1: that Sister Maggie is his actual old They just kind

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Speaker 1: of drop that and throw it away.

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Speaker 3: This is your mom she in case the Catholicism and Christianity,

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Speaker 3: your mom is a nun. Also interesting to bring up here,

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Speaker 3: as we're going to talk about this more throughout the episode,

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Speaker 3: but we met sister Maggie in season three of Dead Levil,

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Speaker 3: so this has already been deeply taken from Ben Urick,

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Speaker 3: another major player in this story. He was obviously a

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Speaker 3: huge part of Dead Devil season one. We spoke, we talked,

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Speaker 3: we're going to talk about.

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Speaker 2: In our rekit.

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Speaker 3: He's fantastic, but his fate in season one means that

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Speaker 3: we're probably not going to see him again here. So

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Speaker 3: there's some very interesting conversation to be had about how

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Speaker 3: much Born Again has actually already been adapted in the

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Speaker 3: first three Netflix Dead Level series.

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Speaker 1: But now the Kingpin with Matt Murdoch basically potentially dead

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Speaker 1: and whereabouts kind of unknown, although the Kingpin is keeping

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Speaker 1: track of now the Kingpin pushes it to he decides,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to now completely ruin Matt's

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Speaker 1: Daredevil persona by finding like basically a psychotic like serial killer,

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Speaker 1: having him released from a mental institution. Forcing Melvin aka Gladiator,

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Speaker 1: the former street level jewel thief and villain who went

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Speaker 1: straight with the help of Matt Murdoch and Foggy Nelson,

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Speaker 1: force Melvin, who is a costume maker for heroes on

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Speaker 1: the side, force him to make a exact replica of

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Speaker 1: Daredevil's costume. They're going to give it to this crazed

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Speaker 1: serial killer and just like set him loose and like

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Speaker 1: have him now ruined Daredevil's reputation by committing murders. Matt,

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Speaker 1: now healthy, goes, he fights this guy and he beats

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Speaker 1: the Daredevil knockoff, and now the Kingpin, who's pushed it

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Speaker 1: too far with this Daredevil knockoff, pushes it even further

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Speaker 1: by having a general that he has in his pocket

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Speaker 1: released to him. The latest and most troubling and most

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Speaker 1: fascistic example of America's continued attempts to create other super

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Speaker 1: soldiers like Steve Rogers. Nuke Nuke is an ultra right

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Speaker 1: wing super soldier addicted to pills who has been working

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Speaker 1: to destabilize various countries in Latin America. He is pulled

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Speaker 1: out of Nicaragua and unleashed on Hell's kitchen with the

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Speaker 1: hopes Kingpin hopes that he'll you know, kill Matt Murdock

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Speaker 1: and everybody that Matt Murrack clubs because he's had enough. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is really the thing that causes the entire scheme

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Speaker 1: to unravel. Daredevil, with the help of some Avengers, beats Nuke.

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Speaker 1: Captain America is drawn into this in what is one

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Speaker 1: of the best cameos I think of a like major

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Speaker 1: character in another story in certainly Marvel History, Like, you

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Speaker 1: get so much of what makes Captain America like actually

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Speaker 1: a great character in this. Yeah, he is so disappointed

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Speaker 1: in his country in the continued obsession with super soldiers,

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Speaker 1: with what they've done to this young man who has

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Speaker 1: become nuke, and he helps Matt bring the whole thing down.

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Speaker 1: In the end, Matt beats the Kingpin in his office

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Speaker 1: in a tremendous fight, and he and Karen literally walk

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Speaker 1: off into the sunset together, and Frank Miller then exits

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Speaker 1: the exits the title with that final panel and does

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Speaker 1: a thing that you never see in ongoing titles, which

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Speaker 1: is create a hard stopping point of the story way

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Speaker 1: that really causes troubles, Like if you're going to read

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Speaker 1: this in the context of the of the Daredevil ongoing

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Speaker 1: run when you get to the next issue, which I

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Speaker 1: think Mark Runwald is the yest writer, because again Frank

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Speaker 1: Miller was just like now I'm out. Fine. It's really jarring.

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Speaker 3: As a kid when you get to the end of

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Speaker 3: one of those arcs and their art changers and the

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Speaker 3: writer changes, and suddenly you're like, wait a minute, like

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Speaker 3: what happened? How how did this come to me? But

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Speaker 3: of course then you know, I'm a huge proponent of

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Speaker 3: the the JR jr. And an Inacenti stuff, so we

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Speaker 3: get all these different great dead level talking points. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, and what a story to read this back.

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Speaker 3: Also again Nuke, a character we saw in season one

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Speaker 3: and two of Dad Devil. They've actually taken so much

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Speaker 3: of this book for the Defender's kind of Netflix universe,

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Speaker 3: which I found really interesting on reading it back, because

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Speaker 3: it is issues to do so to basically, you know,

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Speaker 3: two thirty one essentially you could get too thirty two,

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Speaker 3: two thirty three. It's it's barely you know, twenty issues,

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Speaker 3: and it is so influential.

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Speaker 2: Jason, what was your biggest takeaway re reading it for

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Speaker 2: the book club?

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Speaker 1: How good it is? Like it has its reputation for

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Speaker 1: a reason. You know, I was, I was. I was

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Speaker 1: kind of feeling a little bit of trepidation going back

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Speaker 1: and wondering, God, like, is it as good as I remember?

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Speaker 1: And it is as good. It's as good as I remember.

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Speaker 1: Why this was such a crucial graphic novel for me

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Speaker 1: and my like love affair with comics because it really

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Speaker 1: is literary in a way that many comics of that

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Speaker 1: era were not. Like the descriptions, the way the way

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Speaker 1: the writing worked with the panels, the layouts of the

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Speaker 1: panel That's the other thing. If you're gonna read this

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Speaker 1: on digital, I know, you know some people's eyesight, mine included,

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Speaker 1: is not great. And sometimes you want to zoom in

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Speaker 1: and do the guided view where you blow up the

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Speaker 1: panel right and then you just swipe through. Don't do

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Speaker 1: that because or if you do do that, allow yourself

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Speaker 1: to look at the layout first. Because Masie Kelly's layouts,

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Speaker 1: his layouts are amazing storytelling device.

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Speaker 2: So Rosen's lettering is so incredible.

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Speaker 3: There's this great moment when Matt is left on the

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Speaker 3: ground and he is being rescued, and it's like you

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Speaker 3: see Matt half down the side, and then there's one, two, three, four, five, six,

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Speaker 3: seven panels where it's just huge text in bright pink Son,

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Speaker 3: can you hear me? Son?

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Speaker 2: The doctors they say you'll be fine, Son, You're a

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Speaker 2: hero boy.

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Speaker 3: Really, it looks unlike anything else, while still feeling very

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Speaker 3: akin to that kind of mid to late eighties style because.

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Speaker 2: Of Miller being Miller and mas Kelly being mass Kelly. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I also, something I really loved that I had never

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Speaker 3: kind of revisited in the same way is that every

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Speaker 3: I didn't realize how much intentional repetition there was like

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Speaker 3: every issue opens with Matt laying down and he kind

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Speaker 3: of he starts off relaxing in his bed, and he

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Speaker 3: ends up, you know, curled up in the fetal position

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Speaker 3: in an alleyway, and it's kind of this transition just

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Speaker 3: shown through one thing, how comfortable he was in his

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Speaker 3: beautiful New York apartment, in his nice probably like you know,

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Speaker 3: two hundred count Egyptian sheets or whatever, and then just

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Speaker 3: by Wilson Fisk's sheer malevolence and scheming, he ends up

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Speaker 3: you know, homeless on the street. And I think there's

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Speaker 3: so much interesting visual narrative storytelling in this book that

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Speaker 3: just really stands the test of time and also feels

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Speaker 3: mad simply influential on the people who are making comics.

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Speaker 1: Now, Oh yeah, this is clearly a remains a touchstone.

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Speaker 1: Pieces I want to talk about, like when another thing

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Speaker 1: that I really loved is just the again the Captain

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Speaker 1: America stuff, when he comes in, like there's this moment

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Speaker 1: where he's like he throughout his very brief appearance in

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Speaker 1: this story, it's like an issue basically little less than

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Speaker 1: an issue. When he's working with Matt, Miller is able

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Speaker 1: to like put in so much pathos where you realize

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Speaker 1: that Captain America is like, he's like they people don't

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Speaker 1: believe in this shit anymore. They think it's dumb, like

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Speaker 1: that what am I doing? I'm doing this and nobody

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Speaker 1: believes in what I'm doing anymore. Look at like what's happened.

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Speaker 1: Look at this guy Nuke, look at what the country's become.

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Speaker 1: Look at the General's fucking lying to me, lying to

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Speaker 1: my face about like what they're doing. Nobody believes in

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Speaker 1: what I'm doing anymore? What is this all for? And

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Speaker 1: I found that like so affecting. I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: It's like it's just like really amazing how good this

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Speaker 1: story is and how many things are in here that

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Speaker 1: feel like if I was writing a story today, I

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Speaker 1: might use this device, I might use this plot point.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I would like I would hope to make

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Speaker 1: a scene that is in this style that is as

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Speaker 1: good as the scene when Wilson Fisk is like seducing

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Speaker 1: Nuke into working for him, Like he has his office

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Speaker 1: tricked out with all the American paraphernalia. Yeah, and he's like,

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Speaker 1: you know they don't our boys have been downtroden. Nobody

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Speaker 1: respects our soldiers anymore they don't respect the flag anymore,

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Speaker 1: but I know you do. And the way he seduces him,

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Speaker 1: like Jesus Christ, this feels like twenty twenty five, like

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Speaker 1: it's it's just incredible. What were your thoughts, what were

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Speaker 1: your takeaways upon rereading this?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with all of that.

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Speaker 3: I think the nuke stuff feels just horribly relevant right now,

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Speaker 3: even though this is a book that is literally decades old,

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Speaker 3: Like the book is older than me, and the nuke.

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Speaker 2: Stuff feels so relevant.

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Speaker 3: Something I thought was deeply cool that we often don't

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Speaker 3: get in comics. I loved how much they showed the

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Speaker 3: Kingpin growing his strength and.

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Speaker 2: Kind of like working a king out.

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Speaker 3: And I just thought that was really interesting because often

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Speaker 3: with a character like you know, the Blob or the Kingpin,

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Speaker 3: they're just like, this is a fat character, and maybe

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Speaker 3: he's strong, or maybe he's just really fat. I kind

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Speaker 3: of loved the way that they showed Kingpin's prowess and

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Speaker 3: they showed his strength, and they showed him beating the

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Speaker 3: share out of people. Also, on a hilarious note, I

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Speaker 3: don't think there's ever been a comic that used the

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Speaker 3: sound effect FAP more than this comic that's a different meaning.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: It's so funny because they Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The notable one to me is is Matt's nightstick hitting

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Speaker 1: like Kingpin's belly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love that one.

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Speaker 3: Also, I thought, I love the kind of use of

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Speaker 3: silence in this comic and how often Frank Miller for

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Speaker 3: being such a kind of scene as such, like an

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Speaker 3: autor style creator in this book. As a writer, he

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Speaker 3: understands the power of days of David Masikelly's art. There's

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Speaker 3: lots of silent panels. There's lots of massive splash pages

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Speaker 3: that begin and end the issues, which I love. I

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Speaker 3: do think, you know, I I would love to have

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Speaker 3: seen a world where, you know, when we're talking about

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Speaker 3: something like The Dark Knight Returns, another one of Frank

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Speaker 3: Miller's very famous books that came out within like a

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Speaker 3: year of this, which is completely ridiculous, but you know,

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Speaker 3: he was with Lim Valle at the time, who was

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Speaker 3: a colorist, and you got this really cool representation of

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Speaker 3: Carrie Kelly as you know, a female Robin and I

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Speaker 3: do I just I know Christy Scherr was working on

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Speaker 3: those colors, and I just I don't I wish there

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Speaker 3: had been someone who had been like, hey, let's give

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Speaker 3: Karen like.

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Speaker 2: A little bit more to chew on, like this idea

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Speaker 2: of her.

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Speaker 3: As just like a drug addict, and also the kind

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Speaker 3: of weird moralistic idea of like people who have addictions

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Speaker 3: can't be trusted and there is like levels to that,

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Speaker 3: but it's very black and white. But I will say

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Speaker 3: rereading this as someone who is looking at it with

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Speaker 3: a more critical eye, with a more thematic eye, I

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Speaker 3: did find it very interesting how much kind of Catholic

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Speaker 3: and Christian kind of story thematics there are here, with

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Speaker 3: like resurrections and downfalls and the importance of the church.

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Speaker 2: When Matt gets found by system Maggie, he's.

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Speaker 3: Kind of laying in that reclining Jesus position that we

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Speaker 3: know so well when he awakes in the hospital. So

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Speaker 3: I think in that way, having this kind of more

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Speaker 3: black and white sense of what morality is makes sense.

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Speaker 3: And also, you know who else is going through it

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Speaker 3: in this book, Matt Murdoch, Like that man is going

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Speaker 3: through it just as equally as bad as Karen, and

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Speaker 3: I kind of love as someone who loves a tragic romance.

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Speaker 3: I do love the way that that allows him and

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Speaker 3: her to kind of still connect throughout this book no

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Speaker 3: matter what. They kind of have that tragic romance, which

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Speaker 3: I am a fan of that trope.

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Speaker 1: I found myself really drawn in a way that I

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Speaker 1: don't remember remember being in the past. To the Ben

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Speaker 1: Urick scenes. I think this is the best Yuruk there's been.

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Speaker 1: Urick is still like an active character, of course, and

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Speaker 1: then in Marvel Comics most recently. I think he's probably

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Speaker 1: most recently notable for being part of Orcus's scheme against

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Speaker 1: the x Men and the krakoa era that said, like

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Speaker 1: Uric his bravery in the face of constant threats against

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Speaker 1: his life and his family's life by the Kingpin to

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Speaker 1: pursue the Kingpins story and doggedly reveal that Matt Murdoch

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Speaker 1: was framed by the Kingpin, despite the fact that like

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Speaker 1: Kingpin calls him at work, or the assassin the Kingpin

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Speaker 1: hires calls him at work and makes him listen to

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Speaker 1: the murder of a witness, like attacks him in his home.

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Speaker 1: Like There's so many things that happen to Ben and

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Speaker 1: he follows through, and it's very difficult for him to

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Speaker 1: follow through.

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Speaker 2: I think that part of it was very powerful in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. It's so powerless.

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Speaker 1: It's really powerful stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought it was amazing. Okay, So one of

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Speaker 3: our first questions from Discord, which I think is a

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Speaker 3: great question, it's basically like, first if you asked, what

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Speaker 3: is the legacy of Born Again outside of the shows, like,

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Speaker 3: did the run out of any influences on comic books

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Speaker 3: both inside and outside of Dad.

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Speaker 1: Everl Well, I think we first have to zoom out.

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Speaker 1: It was hugely influential, but I think beyond that, this

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Speaker 1: is thes came out in eighty six and eighty six

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Speaker 1: I think is what a yeah, baby, you're talking about

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Speaker 1: one of the best years in comics ever, and Daredevil

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Speaker 1: Born Again is part of that. There's also the X Men,

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Speaker 1: like the X Men were franchised off into X Factor

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Speaker 1: like New Mutants and X Men like it became they

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Speaker 1: became a crossover sensation where Marvel kind of like was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we realized that X Men is like our biggest franchise.

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Speaker 1: Let's really blow it out. You had Watchmen and The

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Speaker 1: Dark Knight Returns.

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Speaker 3: Crazy that you had those two seminal books. This is

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Speaker 3: the dark and Gritty era.

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Speaker 1: The latter being also Frank Miller, so like that you're

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Speaker 1: really seeing like the literalization, like the adultification, if you will,

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Speaker 1: of comics, particularly with Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns.

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Speaker 2: Their late seventies. Throughout the eighties there were these great books.

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Speaker 3: Denny Cohen's The Question was one of the early ones

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Speaker 3: that really turned things kind of to this dark noir,

402
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 3: huge space. But eighty six eighty seven is seen as

403
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Speaker 3: a massive sea change for comics. You get Watchmen, which

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Speaker 3: goes on to become, you know, the biggest selling and

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Speaker 3: most continuously selling comic of all time. Due to the

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Speaker 3: nature of the contract, which meant that if the book

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Speaker 3: goes out of print for more than a year, Alan

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00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 3: Moore and Dave Gibbons and John Stewart would get the

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Speaker 3: rights back, so that book has never been out of print.

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Speaker 3: Dark Knight Returns obviously seen as one of the seminal

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Speaker 3: Batman stories of all time, with unbelievable work with Frank Miller,

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Speaker 3: Lim Valley on those wild colors, class Jansen inking. It's

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Speaker 3: like it's a team that you could probably lightning in

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Speaker 3: a bottle. But interestingly, another book, Dark Knight Returns unbelievably influential, not.

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Speaker 2: Only on comics, but also on movies, TV film.

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Speaker 3: Every single person who adapts a Batman story, whether it's

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Speaker 3: Tim Burton, Zack Snyder, or inevitably James Gunn Matt Reeves,

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Speaker 3: they always mention the Dark Knight Returns. Christopher Nolan mentions

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Speaker 3: the Dark Knight Returns. So this era was so influential,

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Speaker 3: and I would say in general it becomes a very

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Speaker 3: influential book on comics because many of the people who

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Speaker 3: are working in comics now are people who grew up

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Speaker 3: reading those books, and Born Again is regularly offered up

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Speaker 3: as one of those if you've never read a comic,

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Speaker 3: read this. And I do think actually, and this was

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Speaker 3: another first of her kind of note that they mentioned

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Speaker 3: in the discord. They said, as a naive comics reader,

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Speaker 3: I was surprised that Dead Devil's powers and origin I

429
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 3: sort of re explained in every issue and how the

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00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 3: comics in general handle onboarding new readers right. And I

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Speaker 3: actually think, out of all those books Watchmen, the Dark

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Speaker 3: Knight Returns, this book, I actually think that Born Again

433
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: is probably the most accessible jumping on point, because when

434
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 3: you tell somebody who's never read a comic to read Watchmen,

435
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 3: you are offering it to them as a literary book

436
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 3: because it was in Times one hundred best Novels of

437
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 3: all Time. But to understand Watchmen, and to truly love Watchmen,

438
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: you probably need an understanding of comics, superheroes, the nature of.

439
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 1: PSS understand and superheroes society.

440
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 3: Exactly what you've got to know that like the Minutemen

441
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 3: and the Watchmen are commentaries on these other things, and

442
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 3: if you even want to get deeper, their reimaginings of

443
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 3: Charlton characters. So they're actually a very contextually heavy book.

444
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 3: But born Again, as first for pointed out, this is

445
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: very old school, like you are constantly being reminded, Hey,

446
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 3: this is what happened, this is Matt Murdoch, this is

447
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: what he does, this is how he got his pals.

448
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 3: I mean, the end of the book in what I'm

449
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 3: interested to think about, whether it was an editorial edict

450
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 3: or Frank Miller just being kind to the next person.

451
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 3: The end of the book essentially ends with a status

452
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 3: quo where it's Matt and Karen and he's like, Hey,

453
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 3: I'm dead, evil, I live in Hell's kitchen. I try

454
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 3: and keep it clean. That's all you need to know,

455
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 3: and it's like boom, okay, So then the next person

456
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 3: can hypothetically just kind of jump on. What do you

457
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: think of it as a jumping on point? Like would

458
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 3: you give this to someone who's never read a comic before?

459
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: Yeah? I would, And I think I think you make

460
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: a you make a very salient point, which is particularly

461
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: comics of this era. This was an era in which

462
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: unless you had a pull list at a comic book shop,

463
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: you were getting them on the news stand. Yeah, on this, Yeah,

464
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: on the spinner stands at the burber shop, Like you

465
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: would just buy it because you know, kids would just

466
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: buy it because they love the cover. They wouldn't know

467
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: what the story was, and you had and in that

468
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: came the responsibility of the creative team to explain where

469
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: we are, who these characters are, what the setup is

470
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: every single time. Like it's kind of it's crazy to

471
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: read back those old X Men things where it's like, oh, yeah,

472
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: Logan is like my healing factor kicks in, you know,

473
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: like he's got to telling every single time, like what's

474
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: going on?

475
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: And when they didn't do that, you would have notes

476
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: being like edits note like go check out you know issues.

477
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

478
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 3: Seventy seven of Uncanny or whatever, like they would kind

479
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 3: of direct read us because there was so many books

480
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 3: coming out, and that was actually something I did love

481
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 3: about the experience of reading this book alongside or the listeners.

482
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: A lot of people were kind of like whoa, Like,

483
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 3: I'm just starting this issue and I'm jumping in and

484
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: I don't really understand any of the context or the

485
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 3: back issue of what's been happening in the previous stuff.

486
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 3: I don't really understand how some of this correlates when

487
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 3: you're just reading the issues, and that is such a

488
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 3: big experience of being a comic book reader. I always

489
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 3: talk about another book that came out in this eighty

490
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 3: six eighty seven Corridor, The Killing Joke Brian bolland Alan Moore,

491
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 3: obviously deeply famous, deeply gritty, deeply bad treatment of women.

492
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 3: But that book, it's like it that is a fantastic

493
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 3: book because it is so singular and essentially like an

494
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 3: Elseworld style title, right, But when you compare that to

495
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 3: something like a death in the family, which is such

496
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 3: a big deal Jason Todd die, it's huge, She's killed.

497
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah.

498
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 3: The next issue the Joke is like, hey, guys, I'm

499
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: taking over the UN and he's dressed in like a

500
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: funny costume and he's just like trying to take over

501
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 3: the UN. And it's that difference between a book that

502
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 3: is contained and a book that really was part of

503
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 3: that massive, ongoing comic book continuity. And it was really

504
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 3: fun to get to see our Discord listeners and a

505
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 3: Discord people and our members and our community of Extra

506
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 3: Vision really come together on this kind of like WHOA,

507
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 3: how crazy is it to just read an iconic storyline

508
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 3: but that came in the middle of a bunch of

509
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 3: random issues because that's how comics are. So I kind

510
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 3: of love that this gives you a taste of that

511
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 3: experience without feeling too overwhelmed, Like most of our Discord

512
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 3: listeners really came away from this book like us just

513
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 3: kind of in love with what it did well. And also,

514
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 3: I'm gonna this is a fun question from Animal Mother,

515
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 3: which was Miller is often challenged by his One day

516
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 3: mentioned the depiction of women, which is very true. As

517
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 3: Animal Mother points out, they generally fit into the molds

518
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 3: of kind of victim or prostitute.

519
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: We see that in Sin City.

520
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 3: We also see that he loves like a badass chick

521
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 3: who is broken but as animal mother Dark.

522
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: Knight, Dark Knight Night, weirdly being the only being, the

523
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: only story of this of this time in which he

524
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: breaks that mold.

525
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: It gives you, so then he returns back to it

526
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: in the Secret returns to it. But Sister Maggie is

527
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 3: a welcome deviation from the norm. Her presence in this

528
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 3: book is brief but significant, and it opened a door

529
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 3: to a more complex exploration of faith, Catholic guilt and responsibility.

530
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 3: After Born Again, where does the story take her in

531
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 3: her relationship to Matt Well.

532
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: Jason, As you mentioned, she's his mom.

533
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: Crazy, she's his mom, I mean, they basically crazy, Mic,

534
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: they will give you this massive reveal that here's where

535
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: Matt's mom is. She apparently, you know, clearly her and

536
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: Matt's dad, their relationship was not long lived or filled

537
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: with love, and clearly she's very religious on her own

538
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: and because of the things she was going through, clearly

539
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: abandoned the family. And it's amazing to one realize that

540
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: she's been close by this whole time, perhaps keeping an

541
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: eye on him, clearly keeping an eye on him in

542
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: some way. Yeah, but also this it's kind of a

543
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: one and done, like you dropped this massive reveal on

544
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: you and that's it.

545
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 3: It's really fun.

546
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: I kind of love I love.

547
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 3: It because she and the funny thing is she is

548
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 3: still in the comics, but not really as his mother,

549
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 3: you know, not at all. There is a very interesting

550
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 3: and strange story where Matt is looking after a baby

551
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 3: that he suspects is the Antichrist because of comics. He

552
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: almost threw the baby off the roof of the church

553
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 3: because he was sure of it. And then it turns

554
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 3: out that he meets back up with Sister Maggie. They

555
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 3: they stay in contact and often when something terrible happens,

556
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 3: she will be there and kind of as animal mother.

557
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 3: Noticed is this representation of a more complex look at

558
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 3: religion through the eyes of a nun. She really goes

559
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 3: through it though like her fellow nuns get killed at

560
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 3: some point by like bullseye terrible hate to see it.

561
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: And also she kind of stays involved with Matt and

562
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 3: kind of trying to be his almost like a counselor.

563
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 3: And then she's there for him when he loses Karen.

564
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 3: And it's it's really interesting, but I would love to

565
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 3: see where it goes. We do get some different versions

566
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 3: of her in the comics. In What If, there's an

567
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 3: issue where she kind of protects Karen Page and tries

568
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 3: to after her. We also see her attend Jack Murdock's

569
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 3: funeral in one Most interestingly, in Spider Gwen Law, Maggie

570
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 3: actually doesn't abandon Jack or Matt and he's raised together.

571
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 3: But though she becomes paralegal, she actually ends up getting

572
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: comatose from the same drug of chemicals that blinds Matt.

573
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: So not going great for her. But I'm very interested

574
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: to see if we could.

575
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 3: See sister Maggie return in the New Dead Evil series,

576
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 3: because she really is a huge part of his law.

577
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 3: But it's kind of funny that in the comics it's

578
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: like she's his mom, but they don't suddenly like create

579
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 3: a familial relationship.

580
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: It's so true some other questions that were really good.

581
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 1: Miles Tag in the Discord says, I was not expecting

582
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: the Karen story to be so dark. It's true. I

583
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: think about reading this as a kid, and I just

584
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: like was like, Okay, I imagine it must have been

585
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: pretty controversial at the time. I'm seeing Cap and Tonia's

586
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: instruments of the US Military Industrial complex like nakedly. Part

587
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 1: of it was wild, but as always Cap comes around. Yeah,

588
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: I think let's talk about the Cap elements because I

589
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: think that, first of all, the appearance of the Avengers

590
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: in this story is so cool because you get them

591
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: through Daredevil's the perspective of Daredevil's senses, and you realize

592
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: like how fucking powerful they are. It's like, that's not

593
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: a man, that's a god. Like he's commanding lighting. I

594
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: can feel it. When Tony arrives in his in the

595
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: fucking scarlet Centurion eighties armor. He uh, you know. Matt

596
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: is like I can feel the circuitry like hum around him,

597
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 1: and it's you feel their power. But also, like Miles

598
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: is right, like throughout all of this story, Cap is like,

599
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: what the fuck have I gotten myself into? It?

600
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: Always like what I'm doing?

601
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: Matt says like or someone says, I forget, like oh,

602
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: your bosses, and he's like, I don't work for them,

603
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: Like that's not what this is. Like It's like, oh, yeah,

604
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: prove it, like you know, and Cap does his own investigation,

605
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: which he you get a little bit of a download

606
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: of the Super Soldier history of the program. You realize

607
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 1: it's ongoing, Cap realizing it's it's still ongoing, and that

608
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: this guy Nuke, which you know talk about the complexity

609
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: of Nuke. Nuke really is like the kind of like

610
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: the sub villain of this series, like a major antagonist.

611
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 1: But even though he's not depicted with anything like any

612
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: kind of you know, positive qualities, you don't feel in

613
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: any kind of way that he's like this human being.

614
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: He's so far gone and using drugs to like enhance

615
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,439
Speaker 1: his violence. It's you see his humanity through Captain America, Yeah,

616
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: which is an incredible storytelling device. It's like Cap is

617
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: the only one who's like, I understand what this guy

618
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: has been through exactly. He's a victim of all of this,

619
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: and he's the only one who is like willing to

620
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: help him and to offer him up as evidence of

621
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: the government's wrongdoing. It's an incredible turn and yeah, big

622
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: reason why I think Cap is like again, I think

623
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: it's an incredible cameo by Captain American.

624
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 3: I think as well, it's a really really smart choice

625
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 3: on the part of Miller, which you know, hearing me

626
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 3: celebrate Frank Miller is really going to be shocking to

627
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 3: many of you.

628
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: He has many he's good.

629
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 3: He's good, he's you know, he's terror he's always saying

630
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 3: fucked up shit, and like I often know, critiquing, but

631
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 3: I will say, you know, one of the storylines which

632
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 3: I know we have talked about and I think was

633
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 3: so influential on this story is the Steve Engelhart Captain

634
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 3: America storyline from seventy four where Capp basically decides to

635
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 3: quit being Captain America. And it's to reflect that disillusionment

636
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 3: with the government people felt and with the fact that

637
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 3: the military industrial system is killing people around the world.

638
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: And there's that very famous panel where Captain America is

639
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 3: like Captain America must die, that kind of splash page.

640
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: But I was thinking of that so much.

641
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 3: Here because Cap understands his place in the culture of

642
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 3: the world, and he understands the danger that America can

643
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 3: put people into, and he understands that even while he

644
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 3: wants to be a symbol of hope, that is not

645
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 3: always the case. And I think the nuke stuff is

646
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,760
Speaker 3: really interesting because at this point he is a super

647
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 3: soldier kind of run off from that, but in the

648
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 3: Grant Morrison stuff later on, it would be revealed that

649
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 3: he's kind of part of a weapon plus program similar

650
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 3: to Wolverine. And I think there's so much interesting, dark,

651
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 3: dark truth about the way that experimentation has pushed forward

652
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 3: science and pushed forward military techniques, and how so much

653
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 3: of that in the nature of Captain America he has

654
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 3: created through Nazi technology, Nazi experiments, that is how they

655
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 3: get to the super Soldier serum, And that is so

656
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 3: real about many of the hugest scientific, you know, discoveries

657
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: in American history came from Nazi science. And I think

658
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 3: that just makes this story feel so real and so resonant,

659
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 3: and that feels like a cameo that had so much

660
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 3: thought put into it that Yeah, if you read a

661
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 3: comic book, if you've never read a comic book before,

662
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 3: you know who Captain America is, so it hits. But

663
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 3: if you do know Captain America, you're like, yes, that

664
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 3: is exactly what my guy would say, Like that is

665
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 3: who That's exactly.

666
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: He is, you know, And I think that that is

667
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,959
Speaker 2: really really cool.

668
00:40:44,960 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. I also was very interested in the kind of

669
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 3: conversations that were going on in the in the discord

670
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 3: about like the covers for these issues and kind of

671
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 3: how the art is represented, so like Eric Blakeney actually

672
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 3: sent this email in which really spoke to that, which

673
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 3: was how important is the cover artwork for comics? I

674
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 3: noticed in the discord that a few of the members

675
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 3: have different variations of the comic, and many of them

676
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 3: have various covers. Is this a licensing issue where at

677
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 3: a point in time they have to change the cover

678
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 3: or they can change it. How important is it for

679
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 3: an author artist to expose the art style to a

680
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 3: potential reader or just put what they think will help itself.

681
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 2: So this is a huge question.

682
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, the huge question.

683
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 3: Because back then I think that having art on the

684
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 3: cover that represented the interiors of the comic was massively important.

685
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 3: And really with a book like Born Again, the reason

686
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 3: you're seeing so many different covers is because the book

687
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 3: has been reprinted so many times, and they want to

688
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 3: make people who are completionists feel like there's different reasons to.

689
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 2: Buy it with new back matter or new.

690
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 3: You know, layouts that you've never seen before, or are

691
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 3: really nicely design new cover. Though that very famous stained

692
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 3: glass cover really I think is the iconic one. Nowadays,

693
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 3: I actually think that having art that is different on

694
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 3: the cover has become a major selling point. Most books

695
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 3: which sell hundreds of thousands of issues, are so and

696
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 3: they often don't really have much to do with the

697
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 3: story or the style, Whereas something I loved about reading

698
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 3: this book on hooflo, where they show you the covers,

699
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 3: you really get a sense of what is going to

700
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 3: happen in the issue. The God and Country cover with

701
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 3: you know, the burning American flag on Nuke's face, And

702
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 3: for me, I felt like this that era of eighty

703
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 3: six eighty seven, they did a great job of letting

704
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 3: readers know exactly what they were going to get tone wise,

705
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 3: and I think it's I I remember working in a

706
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 3: comic shop, you know now almost ten years ago, but

707
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 3: we would have people who bought back variant covers, especially

708
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 3: at the time, you know, Scottie Young was so huge

709
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 3: with those cutesy, chibby kind of takes on these heroes,

710
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 3: and then people would read the book and it would

711
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: be a much more kind of standard superhero big two

712
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 3: house style, and they would come back and say, hey,

713
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 3: I wanted the book that looked like the cover, you know,

714
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 3: And I think we've moved past that now. But it's

715
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 3: an interesting question. And Eric also asked like, how did

716
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 3: me and Oliver choose what we featured on the Godzilla

717
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 3: Rival cover, and that was definitely us going back to

718
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 3: this old style where we wanted people to know when

719
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 3: they looked at that cover, when they saw the little

720
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 3: girl in the yellow kind of wet jacket, this fisherman's

721
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 3: jacket looking out and the kind of huge impact of Godzilla.

722
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 3: We really wanted people to know, like, this is how

723
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 3: the book is going to feel, because I think that

724
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 3: for many of us, what drew us to comics in

725
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 3: the seventies and the eighties was the fact that the

726
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 3: covers were so cool and then when you looked inside

727
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 3: the covers it looked like that. You know, that's what

728
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 3: drew me to X Men. It was those badass covers,

729
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 3: and that's what drew me to you know. When I

730
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 3: think about the comics I loved so much, it was

731
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 3: wanting to see art that spoke to me, and I

732
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 3: think the covers really put that across. And I think

733
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 3: in the case of a book like this, the covers

734
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 3: are actually very contextually important and they say, hey, this

735
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 3: is what is happening here. And so I think in

736
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 3: the older school, like Watchmen, stuff like that. You know,

737
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 3: Watchmen had these very interesting kind of close up covers.

738
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 3: Often it had the smiley face with the blood, but

739
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 3: it still had that Dave Gibbons John Stewart art where

740
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 3: you're really getting a sense of this kind of.

741
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: Hyper detailed world.

742
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 3: So yeah, I thought that was really cool to see

743
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 3: people having those conversations about, like, why does this book

744
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 3: have a different cover than mine? Honestly, because this book

745
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 3: has been in print for like forty almost forty years,

746
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 3: and throughout that time it's going to have gone out

747
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 3: of print, it's gonna be back in print, and there's

748
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 3: gonna be different trades, different versions. But I think that

749
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 3: We're born again, You're never going to see a cover

750
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 3: that it's unlikely to see a cover that doesn't have

751
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 3: Frank Miller and Christy Shiel's art because it's just so iconic.

752
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 1: Finally, what do you think it is that has made

753
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: it so that this feels like a touchstone piece of

754
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 1: comic book literature. It is one of those graphic novels

755
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: that even if you don't like comics, if you're not

756
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: a comics person, you might find this on a person's bookshelf.

757
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 1: What do you think it is, Rosie that makes it

758
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,240
Speaker 1: so continually relevant?

759
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: So I think ironically, a lot of this stuff at

760
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 2: the time was just like.

761
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 3: Hey, here's a dude, and he's good at doing this,

762
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 3: and they were like, and here's the book he's written,

763
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 3: so it must inherently be important. And that's not to

764
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 3: say there wasn't brilliant, you know, comic book critics and

765
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 3: people who are in these books with a critical eyeback then,

766
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 3: But I think the reason that it's stood the test

767
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 3: of time so much is one because it has parenally

768
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 3: been in print as a collection, very easy to access,

769
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 3: and two because I.

770
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,879
Speaker 2: Think that Daredevil represents what people.

771
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 3: Often are most moved by in Marvel comics, which is

772
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 3: a street level hero who has real problems and real

773
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 3: issues and is not, you know, a godlike figure like

774
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 3: Superman or Wonder Woman, and is instead a real person

775
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: doing their best to try and help their community. And

776
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 3: in this case we get to see that juxtaposed with

777
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 3: the kind of hyper super soldier storylines. So there's a

778
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 3: melding there that I think is really important. And also,

779
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 3: I think if you're somebody who loves Daredevil and you

780
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 3: love the Catholic imagery and the complex representations of faith,

781
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 3: and how much of Matt is driven by Catholic guilt.

782
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 3: This is a story that really digs into that. I

783
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 3: also think that the infamy of the infamy of this

784
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 3: book is a huge part of it. We often would

785
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 3: talk about this book when I was in the comic

786
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 3: shop and talk about carm page representation and how women

787
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 3: at this time were not getting good representation on the page.

788
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 3: But then that also led me to find other books

789
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 3: like the Anni Nasenti Jrjr. Typhoid Mary stuff and kind

790
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 3: of realized that actually those complex representations were there in

791
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 3: different stories told by different people. So I think that

792
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 3: combination of infamy but also the incredible skill and artwork

793
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 3: of David Mazakeli, that eye catching opening pages, I just

794
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 3: think that it is a kind of perfect.

795
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 2: Storm of.

796
00:47:53,000 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 3: Scandal, talent, and also being in this essentially one to

797
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 3: your period.

798
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 2: That change. It changed comics forever. This was where it began.

799
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 3: You know, there's New York Times articles saying bif Bang

800
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 3: pal comics aren't for kids anymore. You know, this was

801
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 3: a sea change that we are still grappling with as

802
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 3: we get into a space where we're making Disney Plus

803
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 3: shows more violent. That is still a throwback to that era.

804
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's what a book, What a great way

805
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 3: to start book club.

806
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 1: I completely agree. I think for me, I think what

807
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: makes this story and collection special is it grapples with what,

808
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: to me is like the essential like superhero comic question

809
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: is like why is this necessary? Why do this? Like

810
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 1: obviously a in a story like The Boys, there's a

811
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: different and perhaps more realistic answer to what a world

812
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: with superpowered individuals in it would would probably look like.

813
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 1: But I think the thing that's so affecting even now

814
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 1: about Daredevil Born Again is its depiction of a world

815
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 1: that is kind of like fallen. Like the military is

816
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: not trustworthy, they're out for themselves, They're looking to line

817
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:17,320
Speaker 1: their own pockets. You've got people generals, You've got generals

818
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: like running secret missions like in Latin America for reasons unknown.

819
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 1: The Kingpin is able to reach out and get any

820
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: favor he needs from any political figure, any military figure,

821
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 1: and move a million different kinds of levers. He's able

822
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 1: to silently and from the shadows, ruin a guy's life,

823
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: but you know, put his business, you know out, have

824
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 1: him evicted from his home, destroy his home. He's able

825
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: to do all of these things and that's a person

826
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: with a secret identity and powers and connections in the

827
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 1: superhero world. And so throughout this series you're faced with

828
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,439
Speaker 1: heroes like Matt Murdoch, like Captain America, who are like, fuck,

829
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: is it even is it worth it? Is it worth

830
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: doing this shit anymore? Like should I even be doing this?

831
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: Is it necessary? What am I really doing? And then

832
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: the answer is you're the only thing that's actually standing

833
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: between people in a fully fallen world in which the government,

834
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: the military, crime figures, all the powerful figures are just

835
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: like a raid against regular people. No one is there

836
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: to save them except for you. And that's the thing

837
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: that that's the answer that is laid out at the

838
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: end of this and I think it's still a tremendously

839
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 1: powerful answer. Like it's a fantasy, obviously, but it's a

840
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: fantasy that we all want to participate in. That there

841
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: are people out there who are willing to put their

842
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 1: bodies and lives on the line just to protect normal people,

843
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 1: not for any reason of you know, economic benefit, or

844
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: because of and a cruel of power to them, but

845
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: because it's the right thing to do. It's a wonderful fantasy,

846
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 1: and it's and it's displayed, so, you know, viscerally in

847
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: this book, where Matt, like time and time again, is

848
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,800
Speaker 1: given the option to just like opt out, don't do

849
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 1: this anymore, don't take the beatings, don't you know, don't

850
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: just walk away? Yeah, like why why do this?

851
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 2: Also?

852
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he will give you money to leave, like

853
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 3: if you were cool with it. Yeah, like you could

854
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 3: do some scammy stuff, you know. Okay, finally, uh, what's

855
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 3: your favorite panel? M Why?

856
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 1: Oh god, there's so many and it's really hard because

857
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: again I think massa Chili is he did this, He

858
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: did Born and he did Batman Your One, also with

859
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 1: Frank Miller, which to me feels kind of like a

860
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: sibling step sibling to this story. And then he really left.

861
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: He went to academia to teach art and stuff and

862
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: worked in the like the corporate world, And I think

863
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 1: this is it's just magnificent in many ways. I would

864
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: say for me, I could choose a million different things.

865
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 1: But the shot of Matt, so he's been stabbed, but

866
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: he's like kind of just running on fumes and obsession,

867
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: staggering around the city. He finds himself at a boxing gym,

868
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: Fogwells Boxing Gym, and he's standing in front of the

869
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 1: the heavy bag, and oh, I love that.

870
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 2: I love that page.

871
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: The writing on the glass of the window of the

872
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: place is reflected on the floor and on his back

873
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: as he's standing in front of this heavy bag, and

874
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: the shot is like kind of from above, and it's

875
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: Matt like returning to the thing that he knows, the

876
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: thing that his family knows, just fighting, you know, the

877
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:58,959
Speaker 1: thing that his dad knew. And it's just really great.

878
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: Like I think Mazic Kelly for all of the really

879
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: impactful scenes of like superheroes and fights and violence, and

880
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: like I think of the scene of the intro is

881
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: new because he's like jumping off the helicopter, like all

882
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: these amazing things. To me, what makes him be like

883
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: beyond beyond a master is just like the normal the

884
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: way he lays out normal scenes, mad in his kitchen

885
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: making phone calls like yeah, that, the way the angles

886
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: he uses he's he's incredible. And so it's it's really

887
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: really hard to pick a favorite panel, but I would

888
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 1: pick that one Matt in the boxing gym. What's your favorite?

889
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 2: I love that.

890
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go just because it was the first one

891
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:41,320
Speaker 3: I took a screen grab off and it was like

892
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 3: immediately I was like, will I get a tattoo of this?

893
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna go with Wilson Fisk in his shorts.

894
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 3: I think that the colors are so cool. I think

895
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 3: that it sets him up as this almost like he

896
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 3: feels very international in that moment, like he could be

897
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 3: on his yaw in that Italian riviera dealing with the mob.

898
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 2: He seems so cool and casual.

899
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 3: About absolutely destroying Matt's life, which is his plan.

900
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 2: And it also establishes the visual language.

901
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 3: Of the comic, with that massive blam behind him in

902
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,760
Speaker 3: the panel above, and the stuff that I find most exciting,

903
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 3: which is when they veer more into that Batman Year

904
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,240
Speaker 3: one color palette, those Richmond Lewis inspired.

905
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 2: Deep pinks and strange surreal hues, and I just I

906
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 2: love that panel so much.

907
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 3: The other one, I will say, which is a bit

908
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 3: of a cheat, but I do love every opening splash

909
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 3: page where he's laying down and you see.

910
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 2: Him laying in the bed, and then you see him

911
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 2: laying in you know.

912
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,800
Speaker 3: The trash, and you see him laying on the floor,

913
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 3: and then at the end you see the bag, the

914
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 3: heavy bag on the floor and he's standing above it,

915
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 3: and you know, he's kind of resurrected. I just I

916
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 3: think that stuff is just so deeply cool. I mean,

917
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 3: I could just keep talking about this book, like, what

918
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 3: a great pit for the for our first book club.

919
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 2: I'm so stoked we did it.

920
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: Finally, let's do a little bit of fun to a

921
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragon style character alignment chart for Matt Murdoch

922
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: and The Kingpin King. So, I think Matt Murdoch is

923
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: unsurprisingly perhaps lawful good right there left corner. I think

924
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 1: he's a lawyer gray, He's a good man.

925
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 3: He's the most good, even though for the most part,

926
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 3: like he does have chaotic elements. I think the fact

927
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 3: that he continues to always be a lawyer as well

928
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 3: as a nighttime vigilante, and he's always battling inside of

929
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 3: himself to be the best person.

930
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 1: I do believe he's.

931
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 3: Lawful good, though I do think you could lean him

932
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 3: a little bit more into neutral simply because he does

933
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 3: go out beating people up at night.

934
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 2: But I generally think you got to give him the

935
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 2: lawful good because he's a lawyer.

936
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 1: King pin he might be. I mean, if you put

937
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 1: his romantic life into it, he almost goes into chaotic.

938
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 3: I was gonna say that imagines of Matt Madock, where

939
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 3: that man is very chaotic, Like he's not always.

940
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: But in this book as.

941
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 3: Active data, let's get in the streets, he doesn't know

942
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 3: about Okay, okay, what about Kingpin?

943
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 1: I think the Kingpin is lawful evil because rules and hierarchy,

944
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: the system as it exists, is really important to the Kingpin.

945
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: He's not looking to like overthrow the government, the world system,

946
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: take over the world. He likes the way things are

947
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:43,439
Speaker 1: going right now and the and the existing uh law

948
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 1: and order archetypal hierarchical relationship, because like a spider in

949
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 1: a web, he places himself perfectly in the middle of

950
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: all that. He needs all of that structure to keep

951
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:57,760
Speaker 1: running so that he can continue to be the Kingpin,

952
00:56:58,640 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 1: Which is why I believe.

953
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 2: That he is what is No.

954
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 3: I think you're right, because as much as I would

955
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 3: love to say, you know, he has a chao, he does.

956
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 3: I love a chaotic character, and I do think occasionally

957
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 3: he vis into that. But generally this man works absolutely

958
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 3: within the laws of society as we know it to

959
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 3: make himself rich, to enrich himself, to give himself more power,

960
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 3: whether that's as we are going to see as the

961
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 3: Mayor of New York, or whether that's as the very

962
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 3: good businessman who everybody believes in, the philanthropist, the art lover.

963
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 2: He uses the legal.

964
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 3: System and the expected morals of society to hide his evil.

965
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 2: So I think he's a lawful evil too.

966
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 3: That's a very interesting combination and maybe why the two

967
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 3: of them have kind of enchanted readers for so long.

968
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this has been a wonderful first edition of

969
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: book Club. For our next book club meeting, we're going

970
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: to be talking about He's short story from Ted Chang's

971
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 1: excellent collection of short stories, his most recent excellent collection

972
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 1: of short stories, Exhalation. It's the first story in that collection,

973
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 1: called The Merchant and the Alchemist Gate. It's just lovely

974
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: and we won't yeah clarryings now, But that's it for

975
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: this episode. Thank you for our book club listeners, thank

976
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: you for everyone who took part in the book club,

977
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: and we'll see you next time.

978
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, can't wait.

979
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 3: And if you've got any books that you want us

980
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 3: to cover, comics books, whatever you think could be a

981
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 3: good book club inclusion, make sure to hit us up

982
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,959
Speaker 3: in our discord or email us at official xarb pod

983
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 3: at gmail dot com.

984
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 2: Bye Bye Bye.

985
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Concepts Young and

986
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 1: Rosie Night and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.

987
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Joelminique and Aaron Kaufman.

988
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 1: Our super Rising producer is Abuzafar.

989
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,959
Speaker 3: Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wack.

990
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme

991
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: songs by Aaron Kaufman.

992
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 3: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and

993
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 3: Heidi our discord moderator