1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: I was never a Manhattan guy, but I was down 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: in town before. You know, like a few times you 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: couldn't make anything out like it was just everything was 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: just snipe destroyed. I just stood like gigantic whole rubble everywhere. 5 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: On September eleven, Jonathan Dematto was working as an emergency 6 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: medical technician in the Bronx. By the time he was 7 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 1: able to get from his station to the Financial District, 8 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: it was dark. He helped search for people among the rubble. 9 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: Lots of smoke, lots of uh yeah, I guess from 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: the fires that were all They're lots of smoke. It 11 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: was definitely something on the embassy. Again. He was a kid, 12 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: only twenty two years old and on the job for 13 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: maybe a year. John is now a lieutenant paramedic with 14 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: the New York City Fire Department. He's grown a bit 15 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,919 Speaker 1: numbed to the daily stresses of his line of work. 16 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: A lot of these things don't get to me. Not 17 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: not that I don't I don't the late because I 18 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: do relate. But if I let everything get to me, 19 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: I would never be able to do this job. In 20 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: two decades on the job, there had never been a 21 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: day quite as insane as September eleventh, it stood out 22 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: for him as maybe the most extreme moment in his career. 23 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: That was until March. On this Monday night, ramping up 24 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: the response to the COVID nineteen outbreak, we're seeing the 25 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak shift here to the United States. 26 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: Bad News New York City coronavirus cases sore now accounting 27 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: for one third of all cases in the US, and 28 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: to stop the spread of the virus, government were taking it. 29 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: John says the intensity of nine eleven doesn't even come 30 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: close to what he has endured over the past year. Now, 31 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: in addition to saving lives, it frequently feels like he 32 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: is also risking his own. Clearly, when masked up, we 33 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,399 Speaker 1: have goggles on. You know that you're protected, but you're 34 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: exposing yourself to this every single day versus that was 35 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: a one time event. Since March, the looming threat of 36 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: contracting COVID nineteen has been unyielding for John. This is 37 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: every day. Hopefully you don't get it today, you know, 38 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: hopefully you protect yourself properly and whatever the case is. 39 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: Just after Thanksgiving, John shared an article from CNBC on Facebook. 40 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: It suggested that doctors needed to warn people that vaccines 41 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: might come with side effects. The article clearly annoyed him. 42 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: He thought concerns about vaccines were overblown and people should 43 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: just get there as soon as it was available. Here's 44 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: John reading has posed. Of course you should know the 45 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: side effects. Does it matter? Though the virus has shut 46 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: the entire world down for almost a year. People have 47 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: lost their way of life. Our kids are definitely going 48 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: to be the stupidest generation for all the school they 49 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: have missed. Families are ruined. But make sure you don't 50 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: get vaccinated because of the side effects. I get it. 51 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: Someone agree, but oh well. Then his ant texted him. 52 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: She was like, you know, listen in the end, do 53 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: what you want. But um, I'm gonna send you a 54 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: few things. So my aunts and nurse. She's in disease control. 55 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: So I said, all right, I said, let me look 56 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: because I'm I say anti factor, I was never I'm 57 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: still not an anti factor. Like I get my flu shot, 58 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: I don't technically believe in it. It's only accurate. One 59 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: video John's aunts to him was especially persuasive. Most of 60 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: the information in the video was not true, but John 61 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: didn't know that. Historically coronaviruses of vaccines for coronaviruses have 62 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: had a terrible safety record. The video shows an older, 63 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: bespectacled man in a boxing suit at a podium. We've 64 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: decided to not name the person in this video in 65 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: hopes of avoiding spreading this kind of misinformation. The concerns 66 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: he raises would be pretty terrifying if they were true. 67 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: He suggests that drugmakers were ignoring major safety issues in 68 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: the interest of rushing a vaccine to market as quickly 69 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: as possible. Once I saw that video and the literature 70 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: she was sending me, I was like, man, how I 71 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: didn't even consider not getting it? And I if I 72 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: didn't know it was an R and A type sequence, 73 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: what else do I know about it? You know? What 74 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: John's referring to here is the fact that both the 75 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: Maderna and Fiser covid vaccines use a technology called m RNA. 76 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: A lot of vaccines people are familiar with, like the 77 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: ones for polio and the measles, work by using a 78 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: tiny amount of weakened or inactive virus to trigger an 79 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: immune response. Initially, John had just assumed that's what the 80 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: covid vaccines were, but m RNA vaccines instead teach the 81 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: body how to produce proteins that spur an immune response. 82 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: It's kind of like an instruction manual for how to 83 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: fight COVID. There's a lot of excitement over m RNA 84 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: vaccines because it's way faster and easier to develop them. 85 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: They don't require growing large amounts of a virus and 86 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: then taking the time to weaken or inactivate it, and 87 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: m r n A vaccines have been studied before for 88 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: the flu, zekea and rabies. Cancer research has also used 89 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: mRNA to trigger the immune system to attack cancer selves. 90 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: All of this is to say that this may be 91 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: a newer technology, but it is definitely not an unknown one. 92 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: Everything we know at this point suggests the m RNA 93 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: vaccines are not only safe, but extremely effective. Still, it's 94 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: true that there has never been an m RNA vaccine 95 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: on the market, and the video pointed out to John 96 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: that this was just yet another aspect of the pandemic 97 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: that felt uncertain. I really don't know much about it, 98 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: and to be honest, I'm I'm a little skeptical about 99 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: the whole the way the RNA does its thing, you know. Um, 100 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: I'm a little skeptical about it. The video was convincing. 101 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: Here was this guy whipping out all of these big 102 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: scientific terms, speaking passionately, seemingly pleading to anyone who would hear, 103 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: that we are putting everyone at risk with this vaccine. 104 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: And then when my aunt sent me this video, when 105 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: I was watching it, this one in particular, doctor I 106 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: started talking about how he identified an issue with the protein. 107 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: When John saw that video, it planted the tiniest seed 108 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: of doubt in his mind about getting the vaccine. Suddenly, 109 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: the potential side effects didn't seem that irrelevant anymore. What 110 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: if I take it and something happens to me down 111 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: the road, I'm torn between both, you know, I really 112 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: am a torn between both. So then I started doing 113 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: my research on the on the actual doctor who did 114 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: the video, and everything came back like positive on the doctor. 115 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: John felt like he needed to learn more about what 116 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: the skeptics were saying about this vaccine. He spent hours 117 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: researching them. And if you go looking for this stuff 118 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: on the internet, it is not hard to find information 119 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: that confirms your worst fears. It's very, very scary stuff. 120 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: I've been a doctor for a long time. Before me, 121 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: my father is a doctor. I'm not anti vaccine, definitely. 122 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: You should not be calling this the COVID nineteen vaccines. 123 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: The reason is, whatever you call it, it's experimental. I 124 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: don't really want to be the first person to take 125 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: grand new things when it comes to medicine. How many 126 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: of those happily queuing up to be vaccinated, no that 127 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: The list of possible adverse event outcomes what most people 128 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: call side effects, includes the following on various syndrome transverse 129 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: myelitis myelitis and capalo myelitis meningitis. And the game is 130 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: to prevent the therapies till everyone is infected and push 131 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: the vaccine. Convulsions, stroke, nocalypsy, cataplexy, and they'll kill millions, 132 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: as they already have with their vaccines, kill millions, venus 133 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: authoritis death. You really don't do the law sque The 134 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: more he read and watched, the more John's tiny theed 135 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: of doubt grew. One text from his aunt had taken 136 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: John from vaccine advocate to full blown skeptic. I was 137 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: so blind, I didn't even look to see what the 138 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: other side, what the people who are not getting the vaccination, 139 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: and why I didn't even consider it, like It wasn't 140 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: even a thought in my head, like why would I 141 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: not get the vaccination. I didn't know it was an 142 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: RNA type vaccination. I still I thought it was a 143 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: weekend fly virus. So after I started doing research, I 144 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I understand why some people aren't getting it. 145 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: John is not alone. A February pupil found that about 146 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: thirty of Americans did not plan to get vaccinated. That 147 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: number was actually an improvement over earlier polls. Those numbers 148 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: are troubling. Some experts suggest that they are probably not 149 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: high enough for the vaccine to work. How do we 150 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: get to this point, to a point where even healthcare 151 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: workers are suspicious of the vaccines. If anybody understands the 152 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: toll of this virus, it's people on the front lines 153 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: like John Sure. Their online conspiracy theories and the way 154 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: some coronavirus vaccines have been made is kind of new. 155 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: But the thing is, this crisis in public confidence didn't 156 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: start in March, or with the development of a COVID 157 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: nineteen vaccine, or even with the misinformation heavy presidency of 158 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: Donald Trump. It has been brewing for a long long time. 159 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: I'm Christophe Brown, a healthcare reporter for Bloomberg News. This 160 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: is Doubt, a podcast from Prognosis. We're going to tell 161 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: you a story about how vaccines have gone from something 162 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: viewed as harmless, routine, and life saving to something polarizing, protested, 163 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: and feared. Over the past year has felt like the 164 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: once fringe concerns about vaccines have suddenly gone viral. This 165 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: is not a podcast about science. This is a podcast 166 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: about how people come to hold their beliefs. We know 167 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: vac scenes are safe and effective, but we'll show how mistrust, misinformation, 168 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: and the Internet all undermine that fact. In the past year, 169 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: we've seen that growing vaccine hesitancy has serious consequences. It 170 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 1: has made it that much harder to control the pandemic. 171 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: John the paramedic, still remembers the very first COVID nineteen 172 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: case he treated. It was a gentleman who sick, not 173 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: terribly sick, but sick, really weak, hell short of breath. 174 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: This was April of last year. As a lieutenant, John's 175 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: job involves a lot of paperwork. The virus had already 176 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: been spreading for weeks before he went into the field 177 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: and saw someone sick with what seemed to be COVID. 178 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: When he got to the scene, he didn't know what 179 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: to make of it. But not like you see some 180 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: people that I just can't read. He was just short 181 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: of you know. In the paramedics put the pulse socks 182 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: on them and it was like sixty. Pulse socks is 183 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: short for pul sock cimeter. It's a small device that 184 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: slides onto a person's finger and can measure how well 185 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: their heart is pumping oxygen through their body. Any reading 186 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: below ninety is low. Someone with a reading of sixty 187 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: like this man would usually be having a lot of 188 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: trouble breathing if they were conscious at all. This guy 189 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: was weak and pale, but only a little short of breath. 190 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: I've never in my life seen somebody with a sixty 191 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: like that looks fairly okay. But over and over throughout 192 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: the last year, John witnessed patients his blood oxygen levels 193 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: were dangerously low, yet looked relatively fine. It was weird 194 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: every job the cruise, whether the patient was just sick 195 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: or whether the patient was really short of breath or unconscious. 196 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: Every job, the pulse oxes was seventies and eighties, and 197 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: that's not something that you commonly see. When you're like 198 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: the first line work of seeing someone who's that sick, 199 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: and then the hospital doesn't even have to treat it, 200 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: but yet you have to a lot of the cruise 201 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: got nervous and panic. All of this uncertainty around COVID 202 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: was a scary thing for John. He wasn't just worried 203 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: about himself when he saw COVID spreading like wildfire. He 204 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: was worried about bringing it home to his five kids, 205 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: and especially to his four year old son, Nico. It 206 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: was right after Nico was born they found some pretty 207 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: severe are issues with his heart. We were leaving, we 208 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: would leave in the hospital, were discharged, and that at 209 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: hospital a few like two or three years probably had 210 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: to implemented. A post office check comes down to the 211 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: post office. Did a post office check and his was 212 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: so if it's less than fifty, it gives an arrow 213 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: like less than and he popped up less than. Oh no, 214 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: I can't mean this keeps in the in the room 215 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: with us today like he's not the quote cyanotic, he's 216 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: not blue, he's not breathing heavy. How was this kid's 217 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: post office less? So they did it with another one, 218 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: the other machine, same thing that was it gone to 219 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: come upstairs, you know, brush from upstairs. I su su 220 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: did a whole bunch of tests. Within two hours. They 221 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: were like, we have to transform out. We'll go on 222 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: an ambulance. It turned out that Nico had multiple problems 223 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: with his heart. He was born without a pulmonary valve 224 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: and without the wall that divides the left and right 225 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: chambers of the heart. Nico has had so many surgeries 226 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: in his short life that John can't remember exactly how many. 227 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: He's gone through eight on nine surgeries, you know, um, 228 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: and still needs some down the road. People with heart 229 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: issues are especially at risk of developing severe cases of 230 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen. The disease can also damage the respiratory system 231 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: and make it harder for the heart to work. If 232 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: I if I brought him in the room, you would 233 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: lookt him. You never even know he had all these surgeries. 234 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: He's like, amazing, But I don't want to get him sick, 235 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: you know. Back in the spring of John's job felt 236 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: especially dangerous. There was so little information about exactly who 237 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: was most at risk for the virus, and Nico was 238 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: waiting on a critical surgery to repair his heart. The 239 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: Fire Department offered hotels to first responders who are worried 240 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: about bringing the virus home to their families. I debated 241 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: taking this these hotels because they had them in every 242 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: borrow that they had, But but then I'm like, you know, 243 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: am I gonna see my kids for weeks? On him? That? 244 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: And John couldn't very well leave his wife at home 245 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: with five kids to take care of by herself. John 246 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: has close cropped, dark hair and a thin mustache. He 247 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: looks young and projects the sort of zen attitude of 248 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: chillness about the state of everything. But when I talked 249 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: to him over Zoom, I can tell that he is tired, 250 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,479 Speaker 1: reclining against the headboard in his bedroom. Other times, when 251 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: we talk kids, often in our the conversation that Nico 252 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: is that Nico Lorenzo. Why John now has more overnight workshifts. 253 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: They can go for sixteen hours, and he's constantly dealing 254 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: with his kids when he's home. It's not a stretch 255 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: to say that John is anxious for the pandemic lifestyle 256 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: to be over. He might be wary of the vaccines, 257 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: but he understands better than most people how serious the 258 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: virus is, and he's tried hard to protect his family 259 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: from it. And of course the clearest path out of 260 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: this for John and for everyone is mass vaccination. If 261 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: people get vaccinated, a virus like COVID just doesn't have 262 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: enough hosts to keep on surviving and thriving. Eventually, you 263 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: can't find anywhere to live, so it dies out. That's 264 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: how polio was eliminated from the US and many other countries. 265 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: That's why we don't really worry about tetanus or whooping cough, 266 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: or at least until recently, the measles. And yet one 267 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: deceptively convincing video started John down a path that led 268 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: him to decide against getting a vaccine. So let's talk 269 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: a little bit more about that video, the one John's 270 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: aunt sent him. The man talking in this video is 271 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: a staunch vaccine skeptic. He's not a medical doctor, but 272 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: the head of an arcane research institute that supports research 273 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: into topics, including the risks of several vaccines. But his 274 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: first hit on Google suggested he was affiliated with a 275 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: well known university as well as the founder of a 276 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: medical journal. It's not a single vaccine manufacturer took heed 277 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: of my warning to remove those unsafe epitopes from thevaccines. 278 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: It's easy to see how a video like this might 279 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: make vaccines seem confusing and scary to anyone, especially in 280 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: a time plagued by the uncertainty of the past year. 281 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: Videos like this are designed to seem plausible. The man 282 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: spits off a litany of figures and complicated sounding biological terms, 283 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: insides research that he says is peer reviewed, but he 284 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: doesn't leave a whole lot of time for you to 285 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: think too hard about what you're watching. Before you can 286 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: sift through each scary claim, he's moved on to another. 287 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: The only single data point, the datum that we have 288 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: on what percentage of patients exposed human patients exposed to 289 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: a coronavirus vaccine have had serious adverse events. He's from 290 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: lit Darna trial and that number. It's big statements like 291 00:20:55,280 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: this that people got seriously ill to make the video 292 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: so persuasive, but it's also just not true. In data 293 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: submitted to the FDA for authorization, Moderna reported that out 294 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: of more than fifteen thousand patients that received the vaccine, 295 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: about one experienced any serious adverse events, a number that 296 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: was about the same as people who received a placebo shop. 297 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: The number of serious potential side effects has been even 298 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: lower since distribution of it began. But the video was 299 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: recorded in October, before any of this data was out, 300 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: and the man in the video seems to be cherry 301 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: picking numbers from a very early trial of the vaccine 302 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: involved just fourteen people. But for John, there was now 303 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: doubt percolating in his mind where there had not been 304 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: any before. To be honest, the big game changed to 305 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: me was that that video I saw, and the fact 306 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: that I checked that doctor's credentials and it all checked out. 307 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: That was a big game change to me. I want 308 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: to be clear about a few things here. There is 309 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: still a lot we don't know about both COVID nineteen 310 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: and the vaccines intended to prevent it. It is easy 311 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: to see how people fall down the rabbit hole like 312 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: John did and wind up scared or skeptical, But there 313 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: is also a lot that we do know. These vaccines 314 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: have been tested thoroughly and appear safe. That information can 315 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: just sometimes be hard to find. John says the newness 316 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: of it all made him a bit skittish. The doctor 317 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: had said that he identified an issue with it, but 318 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: and he works in this field. But they chose they 319 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: were They were so far into the process with the 320 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: with making the vaccine. He said that they just continued 321 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: to go along with it. When John did his homework, 322 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: he told me he found both good and bad things 323 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: about this misinformation spreading researcher. I felt even if half 324 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: of his concerns were correct, it was enough to worry about. 325 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: John told me he recognized the limits of what he 326 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: could learn by simply googling, so he tried to get 327 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: the fire department to host some kind of information session 328 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: about the vaccines. He also consulted with the fire department doctor. 329 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: She too, told him she was skeptical about the vaccine. 330 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: She says she was opting out because she doesn't trust 331 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: an RNA type vaccine vaccination because it's there's a lot 332 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: of unknowns to an RNA type vaccination. They've been working 333 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: on if he is, but there's a lot of unknowns. 334 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, though, it seems like 335 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: the biggest issue is that John just couldn't bring himself 336 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: to trust the people meant to calm his doubts the vaccine. 337 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: The president, he means, Donald Trump here swear it was 338 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: going to be in by a certain time. Every One 339 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: said it will never be ready by that never ready, 340 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: and this is going on and on and on. It's 341 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: gonna be ready by this time. It's gonna be ready 342 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: by this time. It will never be ready. Boom, it 343 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: was ready by the time. These are medical professionals that 344 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: you're supposed to trust, but they can't even get on 345 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: the same page. So why should I believe them about 346 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: an RNA virus? The tricky thing about vaccines is that 347 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,199 Speaker 1: they require public trust in order to work in an 348 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: environment in which the facts keep changing. What version of 349 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: them do you even believe? At the start of the pandemic, 350 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: public health officials in the US went on record thing 351 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: masks were not necessary. While face masks are currently required 352 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: in some parts of China to prevent the spread of 353 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: the deadly coronavirus here in the US, the Centers for 354 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: Disease Control is not yet recommending them for the public. Then, 355 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: more study of the virus revealed masks were in fact 356 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: critical instruments and slowing its spread. Doubt about masks naturally followed, 357 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: so did protests in the US. None of this was 358 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: helped by a president who promoted claims not backed by science. 359 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: Former President Trump suggested the possibility of ingesting bleach to 360 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: combat the virus. He also promoted the wonders of a 361 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: drug called hydroxy chloroquine to treat COVID without any credible 362 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: evidence to back it up. Worse yet was the lack 363 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: of agreement between the White House and public health figureheads 364 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: such as Anthony Fauci, the most senior expert on infectious 365 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: diseases in the country. Like John said, who do you 366 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: trust when the people you are supposed to trust can't 367 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: agree with each other. Heidi Larson studies mistrust of vaccines. 368 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: She's the founder of the Vaccine Confidence Project at the 369 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. It's a nonprofit 370 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: that looks at how rumors about vaccines spread and why 371 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: a time like COVID is really full of rumoring. For 372 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: a good reason actually, because even the scientists are learning 373 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: every day, and if you look at the formal definition 374 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: of a rumor, it's a piece of yet unverified information, 375 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: so it has the potential to actually be true or 376 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: come true, but it also it I sometimes say rumors 377 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 1: have a bad reputation because we always assume they're bad, 378 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: but but actually people are trying to figure out based 379 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: on bits and pieces of information, what's the story? So 380 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: I think they've particularly thrived in the context of COVID 381 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: more than any other scientists or public health expert I 382 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: interviewed for this podcast Heigh he preaches empathy an understanding 383 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: of people who are skeptical of vaccines. She doesn't like 384 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: the phrase anti vaxer. She says it's too polarizing, too 385 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: ignorant of the broad spectrum of opinions people have on 386 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: this subject. I think one of the problems with the 387 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: framing of the pro and the antie is that it 388 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: kind of pushes out this middle group that are undecided 389 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: but there are still open and I think if there 390 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: if they're not getting a reasonable answer, or even feeling 391 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: like they're judged or as some say, demonized for just 392 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: asking questions, it hardens them and they're more vulnerable to 393 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: some of the more extreme views. We've taken a cue 394 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: from Heidi here. You'll notice that we don't use the 395 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: term anti vax are very often in this series. Sometimes 396 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: the rumor is not really about the rumor. It's about 397 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: a lot of distrust, and people are because of their 398 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: distrust the system, they make assumptions. Their default is distrust. 399 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: If people trust the system. They're not out there looking 400 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: for rumors. But if you don't trust the system, you 401 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: are much more gullible to conspiracies and others. The rumors 402 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: that have cropped up over the past year are not 403 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: unique to the pandemic. Conspiracy theories have circulated that five 404 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: G wireless technology is the real culprit of the virus. Similarly, 405 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: three G was suspected to cause stars in two thousand three, 406 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: and four G was linked as wine flew in two 407 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: thousand nine. The rumors have less to do with any 408 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: particular disease than a general distrust of the system. The 409 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: tensions that underlie those ideas pre d the rise of 410 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: Donald Trump or the emergence of a deadly and highly 411 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,959 Speaker 1: contagious virus in Wuhan, China. The pandemic, though, has allowed 412 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: those rumors to spread more than ever. What has been 413 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: interesting to me, and more than I expected, was the 414 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: way that that COVID rumor UH and broader anti vaccine 415 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: narratives have gone way beyond the usual circles. These groups 416 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: are looking for others who feel like them because it 417 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: strengthens their numbers, and they really maybe care less about 418 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: the vaccines and more about the principle of my choice, 419 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: my freedoms um, which is very deep in the in 420 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: the anti vaccine groups these days, it's as much about 421 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: that for many of them as it is any particular vaccine. 422 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: All of the uncertainty of COVID nineteen has heightened the 423 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: tensions that were already fueling concern earns about vaccines. Many 424 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: people cite the newness of the vaccines as the root 425 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: of their hesitancy. They doubt because they feel there isn't 426 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: a convincing argument to prove the vaccines are safe. In fact, 427 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: there is a horde of data provided to the FDA 428 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: and vetted by independent experts that all suggests that authorized 429 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen shots are not only extremely safe, but extraordinarily effective. Still, 430 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: all that data can be hard to parse. It isn't 431 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: easily understandable to most people. But a misleading headline about 432 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: elderly Norwegians who died shortly after getting their job, well 433 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: anyone can infer what that means. The fictions at times 434 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: are just more accessible than the facts. But for vaccines 435 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: to work, most people have to take them. As soon 436 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: as enough people lose confidence that system falls apart. Heigh 437 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: he says is that COVID nineteen is an opportunity for 438 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: the public health community to correct the record on vaccines. 439 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: I see COVID as an absolutely huge opportunity because if 440 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: we get this right, we can shift the landscape around confidence. 441 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: If we get it wrong, it's also going to shift 442 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: it into not a very good place. She says that 443 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: to win the trust of people like John first, the 444 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: public health community needs to listen if we want to 445 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: get enough people vaccinated to stop COVID. As a public 446 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: health community, we need to be listening and getting back 447 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: to the people who do have emerging concerns that are 448 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: specific to COVID that even if we don't have a 449 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: perfect answer, we engage with them, because if we don't, 450 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: there's a lot of other eager groups trying to engage them. 451 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: The number of frontline health workers who have declined the 452 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: vaccine is maybe one of the most surprising stories of 453 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: the past few months. Heidi made me think about John 454 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: and all of his fellow first responders who opted out 455 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: of the vaccine. In February, f D and Y said 456 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: that more than half of its paramedics and e m 457 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: t s declined vaccination. A March pole by The Washington 458 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: Post and Kaiser Family Foundation found that three in ten 459 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: frontline health workers so they were either unsure about getting 460 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: vaccinated or didn't plan to at all. When we talk, 461 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: John continually brings up that he feels he wasn't supported 462 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: by the fire department during the pandemic. He feels he 463 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: wasn't given enough training and that testing wasn't a priority 464 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: at his station. He also brought up nine eleven. He 465 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: says he and other responders were not prepared with equipment 466 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: like respirators to protect them from all the debris in 467 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: their He have health issues like sleep apnea now disorder 468 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: in which breathing stops and starts while you're sleeping, and 469 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: a chronic sinus problem. At the end of the world, 470 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: this is what I gotta wear a seat machina if 471 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: I want to see in the bed because my wife 472 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: doesn't want to hear me. It wasn't just public health 473 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: officials John didn't trust. He was also wary of the 474 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: authorities at the job giving him access to the vaccine. 475 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: John isn't the only first responder who feels like the 476 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: advice coming from the top can't totally be trusted. My 477 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: name is Anthony almagera, I am the vice president of 478 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: the f D and y E M S Offices Union 479 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: Local thirty. I'm a lieutenant paramedically f D and y 480 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: E M S Coument and explaining why so many of 481 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: his colleagues have trepidation about the vaccine. Anthony also brought 482 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: up nine eleven. We're a little leary about the c 483 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: D c S advit. They told us the air was 484 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: good at nine eleven, and so people didn't wear masks 485 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: or respirators, and look at how many people got sick 486 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 1: from that based on their advice. Anthony says that many 487 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,720 Speaker 1: of his union members have expressed concerns about the speed 488 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 1: of vaccine development. Some of his female coworkers say they're 489 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: worried about how it might impact their ability to have children. 490 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: People would you know had trepidations about taking it, and 491 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: rightfully so right We've never produced a vaccine this quickly 492 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: in human history. I had my own trepidations. Rather than 493 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: falling down a YouTube rabbit hole, Anthony read pharmaceutical industry 494 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:43,919 Speaker 1: publications to learn how RNA based medicines work. He also 495 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,760 Speaker 1: read both the studies from the Maderna and FSER Clinical trials. 496 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: Like John, he spent a lot of time trying to 497 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: figure out how he felt about the vaccines. You wound 498 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: up convinced that any risk that might be connected to 499 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: them was worth it. He decided get the shot. In 500 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: this day and age, with so many ways to verify something, 501 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: people just aren't doing it, and they go on feeling 502 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: instead of fact. So I feel that vaccine is not 503 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: going to be good for me, and then when I 504 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: respond why, they don't have a scientific answer. They don't 505 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: have an answer that's deduced from some type of reasoning. 506 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,800 Speaker 1: It's based in feeling. When Anthony did get vaccinated, he 507 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: made sure to share the news widely. I don't know 508 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: how to break through other than by example. So when 509 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: I went and got my shot, I posted it everywhere. 510 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,879 Speaker 1: I encouraged others to go get it. I updated people 511 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: in real time on our message boards. Hey, I'm twenty 512 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: four hours after this, after the shot. I have a 513 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: little soreness in the arm, but otherwise I feel fine. 514 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: So John and Anthony both started out in the same place. 515 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: Both are doubts about this revolutionary vaccine. They wanted to 516 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: learn more, but the sources they found led them to 517 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 1: different conclusions Anthony when I hadn't got it, and John 518 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: he chose to skip it. There were too many questions 519 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: that I have out there. I'm not I'm not going 520 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: to get it until maybe down the road, if I 521 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: even do. John is still worried about Nico, but over 522 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: the summer his son had a surgery the doctors told 523 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: the family made him far less vulnerable to the disease. 524 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: If Nico hadn't gotten that surgery, John says, he may 525 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: have gotten the vaccine. I don't have a risk factor, 526 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: you know, I don't have a risk factor, so all 527 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: other than being a little heavy, I don't. I don't 528 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: have high blood pressure, diabetes, and he kind of cardiac 529 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: me personally, So for me to survive the disease, it's 530 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: like n versus taking something that they really haven't given 531 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: out before. John is clear that he is not an 532 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: anti vaxer. People like John are exactly who heigh he 533 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: is talking about. He is not against vaccination. He just 534 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: has some concerns. In fact, he says he sometimes argues 535 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: with his wife's best friend, who he says is extremely 536 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: against vaccines. He's not opposed to ever taking a COVID 537 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: nineteen vaccine in a few months. If it's all going well, 538 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: he might reconsider his stance. When I see like, are 539 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: there any adverse reactions? Um, stuff like that, and I 540 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 1: seem more I may reconsider. I don't know, but whenever 541 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 1: a friend or family member or colleague asked John about 542 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: his decision to not get vaccinated, he sends them that 543 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: same YouTube video that has answent him, the one that 544 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 1: first made him doubt. I always tell them I don't 545 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: want to jade your decision, like I want your decision 546 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: to be your decision, you know, especially me, who was 547 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,720 Speaker 1: going to get it at first and then I changed 548 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: my mind. John says that so far he sent that 549 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: video to seven or eight other people. If you're the 550 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: guy in the video, do you hope the seven or 551 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: eight people John sent it to pass it on to 552 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: another seven people, and then they sent it to another 553 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: seven people after that, and soon enough her message is everywhere, 554 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: person by person, the skepticism spreads. It's contagious. It's designed 555 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: to be that way. People like that guy know what 556 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: they are doing. They know how to ryle folks up. 557 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,399 Speaker 1: Next time on doubt, we'll go back in time, tell 558 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,839 Speaker 1: all of this started. We'll show how a select few 559 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: have exploited anxiety and uncertainty to make people believe misinformation, 560 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: and to make that misinformation and go viral. That story 561 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: is the story of a man named Andrew Wakefield. Doubt 562 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: is written and reported by Me Christ and v Brown. 563 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: So for Foreheads is our senior producer. Molly Nugent is 564 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: our associate producer. Our theme was composed and performed by 565 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: Hannis Brown. Special thanks to Bloomberg editors Rick Shine and 566 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: Tim Anette and my colleague Angela colo Veto. Francesco Levi 567 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: is the head of Bloomberg Podcast. Be sure to subscribe 568 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: to Prognosis if you haven't already, And if you like 569 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: our show, please leave us a review. It helps others 570 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: find out about the show. Thanks for listening, See you 571 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: next time.