1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. Last 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: week's episodes discussed contemplations of plant memory and other topics 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: that can blur our understanding of the animal plant divide, 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: And when we were talking about all of this, I 7 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: mentioned very briefly that hybrid creatures of myth and legion 8 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: often serve, among other purposes, as a kind of reflection 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: on the similarities and differences between animals and plants. And 10 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: at times maybe we're a contemplation of places where the 11 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: distinction becomes a little confusing for one reason or another. 12 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: So I thought we might discuss one of them UH 13 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: this week in greater detail, and that is the vegetable 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: lamb of Tartary. Uh. This is one of those, teacher 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: was UH. I thought I might do like a short 16 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: form monster fact on, But the more I looked into it, 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: the more it seemed to have legs. Very nice. So 18 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: you were drawn to this was this nominative determinism thing? Um? I, well, 19 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: this is when I had been vaguely familiar with UH, 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: in part because it does pop up in various uh 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,559 Speaker 1: bestierias and monster books. Uh. Jorge Luis Borges wrote about 22 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: it and was enticed by it. But yeah, when you 23 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: start looking into it, there's there's a lot more to 24 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: it than just a simple definition and explanation of what 25 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: it was or wasn't. Well, this was clearly one of 26 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: the most popular fantastic creatures of medieval bestiaries. It's it's 27 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: all over the place, and it's treated with varying degrees 28 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: of credulity, more more credulity early on and less later on. 29 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: That's right, so it's Uh. It was referred to as 30 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: the vegetable Lamb of Chartery by Sir Thomas Brown and 31 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: his six work UH Pseudodoxia Epidemica, and it was known 32 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: by many other names as well. UM. Two of the 33 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: first sources I looked at concerning this where of course 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: the Carol Rose's books A Book of Monsters, and also 35 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: the writings of afore He Louis Borees. Uh. They point 36 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: out in their works that the creature is also known 37 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: as the Bora Mets or the barow Mets. That's a priant, 38 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: that's a that's an important name that comes up a lot. 39 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: There's also the polypodium Bora metsu, the Chinese polypodium, the 40 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: lycopodium or Chinese lycopodium, the jadua, the Scythian lamb, and 41 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: I've also seen it referred to as the Tartar lamb, 42 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: and we'll get into the differences. But the basic description 43 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: of the bora mets or the barow mets as as 44 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: bores and and rose catalog respectfully, is that it's a 45 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: plant shaped like a sheep that grows out of the ground, 46 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: and if you cut it open, you'll find the insides 47 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: are exactly what you would find if you cut open 48 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: an actual lamb or sheep, blood, flesh, bones, etcetera. People 49 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: allegedly encountered this strange thing in parts of Asia and 50 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: then brought back stories about it which were elaborated upon. Yes, 51 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: and there's a great principle at play here, which is 52 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: the same as the friend of my Cousin's principle. You 53 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: know that you place the origin of your really cool 54 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: story sort of several links or geographically far away, so 55 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: that it's harder to check up on. Because again, this 56 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: is something that was said to exist in the land 57 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: of Tartary, and a European chronicler in the Middle Ages, 58 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: saying that a wondrous life form is found in Tartari 59 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: is not especially helpful to a reader who might want 60 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: to look for evidence of this thing beyond the text 61 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: they're reading, especially if they want to go try to 62 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: find it in the real world. Since the European medieval 63 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: concept of Tartary was a huge and vaguely to find 64 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: area of land, it's not like saying it's in Chicago, right, 65 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: And it's a large area of land that not much 66 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: was known about two Europeans prior to the eighteenth century. Right. 67 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: A lot of it was these fantastical travel books, like 68 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: some of the ones we're going to talk about today. 69 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: So this was, yes, that the European name for the 70 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: vast stretch of Asia that was north of the then 71 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: borders of China, India, and Persia as understood by the West. Right, 72 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: you can think of it broadly as the central and 73 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: northern area of the Asian mainland, including parts of what 74 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: today would be Central Asia and Siberia, but running all 75 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: the way down to the Himalayas, including Kazakhsan and Mongolia 76 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: what is today part of China and the whole eastern 77 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: part of Russia. So this is this is a huge 78 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: stretch of land. This is not being very specific at 79 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: all to say that something is in Tartary, which is 80 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: actually great because if you want to get away with 81 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: weaving a tall tale for European audience, this is an 82 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: excellent place to set it. It's a asked much of 83 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: it is sparsely populated, very little is known or understood 84 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: by the reader, so it's gonna be very difficult to 85 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: check up on on your story at that time. Now, 86 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: one more thing before we get started looking at some 87 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: of these great old sources, is there there's a really great, 88 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: more recent source tracing the history of the vegetable Lamb 89 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: of Tartari legend and offering what I think is a 90 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: very convincing argument about its natural origins. And we'll get 91 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: more into the explanation of the natural origins in part 92 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: two of this series. I think today we're going to 93 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: focus more on the the legend itself and its development. 94 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: But this source was by a nineteenth century English naturalist 95 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: named Henry Lee, and it's called The Vegetable Lamb of Tartari, 96 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: published in eighteen eighty seven. I'm gonna be referring to 97 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: that work repeatedly throughout these episodes. But a little bit 98 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: about Henry Lee. He was apparently in an aquarium, a 99 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: naturalist and an aquarium manager, and he published books in 100 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies and eighties investigating claims of various sea 101 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 1: monsters and offering natural explanations for these sightings and stories. 102 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: He seems to me to be a very early model 103 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: of the skeptical crypto zoologist. All right, but before we 104 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: we get into the realm of skeptical crypto zoologists, let's 105 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: back it way up. Let's deal with some less reputable 106 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: sources by authors that may not have been actual people, 107 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: at least in one case. Interstage left, Sir John Mandeville. 108 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: That's right, the book the Sir John Mandeville's Travels UH 109 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: from thirteen fifty c E. Now, the first thing you're 110 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: probably asking is, Okay, who's this John Mandeville guy that's 111 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: going to tell me about his travels? Well, Mandeville is 112 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: the supposed author of the Travels of Sir John Mandeville UM, 113 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: a travel memoir that's circulated during the mid fourteenth century. 114 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: And this individual was said to have been an English 115 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: night but It's widely thought that this individual did not 116 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: actually exist, and that the true author may have been 117 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: a Flemish monk, perhaps one gen Delung who he who 118 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: was himself a prolific writer and a collector of various 119 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: travel logs. Um. But I think it's still it's it's 120 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: not something we're certain on, but I've seen some sources 121 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: that indicate that this guy is a possible beat just 122 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: because he was sort of all the interests and u 123 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: resources lined up well. One of the wonderful things about 124 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: reading Sir John Mandeville is if if you find one 125 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: of the archaic original texts, the spellings of all the 126 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: English words like, you can sort of make sense of 127 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: it as a modern English reader if you labor through it. 128 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: But the spellings are just tremendous. He calls himself a 129 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: night of Ingleland night with a y, and in England 130 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: is spelled I N G E L O N D. 131 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: Oh my heart. That's great. I should I should also 132 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: point out that there's there's been a lot of work 133 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: over the years, uh, just analyzing how much of this 134 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: book is again the there was not a real person, 135 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: but how much of this may have been based on 136 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: somebody's actual travels versus how much of it is just 137 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: pure invention or generated off of the backs of other works. Yeah, 138 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: it's it's difficult to tell that. I think it's pretty 139 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: clear that his story of the vegetable Lamb of Tartari 140 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: is a fabrication, because number one, he claims to have 141 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: seen it himself, And as we'll get to it, we're 142 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: pretty sure not nothing of this description ever actually existed, 143 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: and it may be a garbled version of sightings of 144 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: something that did really exist, but it wouldn't look anything 145 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: like what John Mandeville describes. So the fact that he 146 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: claims to see it and his description does not match 147 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: anything in nature, including real plants that could have inspired that, 148 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: that seems to point to this just being made up. 149 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: But it could. But but it's also likely that he 150 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: based this story on something else that he read from, 151 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: maybe a hundred years before him or even earlier. His 152 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: encounter with the alleged Lamb of Tartari comes in the 153 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: twenty six chapter of this travel book, where he is 154 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: describing the curiosities he came across in the dominion of 155 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: the cham of Tartary. All right, here's the bet I'm 156 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna read it here, and my copy has 157 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 1: the original spellings in it, so I'm gonna try and 158 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: lean into those spellings. Quote and they grow with a 159 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: manner of fruit as though it were gourds, And when 160 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: they've been ripe men cutting him two and then finding 161 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: within a little beast in flesh, in bond and blood 162 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: as though it were a little lamb without in wool. 163 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: Fruit is f r u y t And and Gord's 164 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: is gower d s g o w r d S. Yeah. 165 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, So it's it's worth looking up 166 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: just to to take in these spellings. U. And I 167 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: have to say, I when I read this, in my mind, 168 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: I'm reading it in the voice of Mary from the 169 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: British comedy Ghosts, who's like this medieval peasant ghost who 170 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: I can easily imagine going through this. Uh this this 171 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: statement here, um, you know who I really want to 172 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: get a reading of that. I want to get Matt 173 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: Burryed to do it. Yeah, that would be good too. 174 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: You could do a whole audiobook of the travels of 175 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: John Mandeville. It were a little lomb without an wool. 176 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: Uh but wait, wait a minute, so you cut it 177 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: off there, and that's that's a great part of the quote. 178 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: But the quote does go on. Do you mind if 179 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: I feature the next sentence? Go for it? Okay? After 180 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: that it's uh no, I'm not gonna do a matt 181 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: Berry voice. It's and men eating both the fruit and 182 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: the beast. And that is a great marvel of that 183 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: fruit I have eaten, although it were wonderful, But that 184 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: I know well that God is marvelous in his work. 185 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: Eas W E r K E s. So let's review 186 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: what we know from Mandeville now, right. So in Tartarie 187 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: there is a plant that grows a fruit that resembles 188 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: a gourd. And when these gourds are ripe, you can 189 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: cut them open, and inside you will find a tiny 190 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: beast that is exactly like a lamb, Like a real 191 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: lamb doesn't just look like one. It has meat and 192 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: bone and blood. And men in Tartari will eat these 193 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: little lambs. John Mandeville says, I myself ate one too, 194 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: and it was delicious. And the existence of the lamb 195 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: of Tartari is so marvelous that it proves the greatness 196 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: of God. This this is a great source. I saw 197 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: the baby and the baby looked at me. The baby 198 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: looked at you. Oh no, yeah, Chief Wigham is all 199 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: the subsequent chroniclers who report on this passage. Yeah. So 200 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: I just love every part of it. I mean, just 201 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: the idea that you it looks like a lamb and 202 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: you cut it open and it's got it's not on donline. 203 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: Does it bleed and have flesh but it has bones? 204 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, it's it's and and this is not. There's 205 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: even more. There are more layers of the absurd will 206 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 1: come in later tellings. Yeah. Mandeville seems to be one 207 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 1: of the earliest widespread accounts of the lamb in medieval 208 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: European sources, but the legend is repeated with many variations 209 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: in books of the following centuries up until people start 210 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: getting skeptical, I think, basically during the Enlightenment. But another 211 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 1: one we should look at before we try to trace 212 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: any further forward or backward is the one by by 213 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: Thomas Brown in the in the mid seventeenth century, right 214 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: in the book Pseudodoxia Epidemica. This is sixty six now, 215 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: Thomas Brown, this was certainly a real historic person who 216 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 1: lives sixteen o five through two. An English author physician 217 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: and poly math. He wrote on numerous topics, but his 218 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: was best known for Religio Medici, very popular work of 219 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: the day on the connections between science and religion, and 220 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: the boro mets becomes even more extraordinary by the time 221 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: of Brown, who writes the following quote, much wonder is 222 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: made of the boroma. Is that strange plant animal or 223 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: vegetable lamb of tartary, which wolves delight to feed on, 224 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: which hath the shape of a lamb affordeth a bloody 225 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:17,359 Speaker 1: juice upon breaking, and liveth while the plants be consumed 226 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: about it. And that much is typically quoted. You'll find 227 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: that quoted on various um discussions of the boats. But 228 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: there's more which is insightful, because he continues, and yet, 229 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: if all this be no more than the shape of 230 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: a lamb in the flower or seed upon the top 231 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: of the stalk, as we meet with the forms of bees, flies, 232 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: and dogs, and in some others, he hath seen nothing 233 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: that shall much wonder at all. So in other words, however, 234 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: if this is just something on the plant that is 235 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: shaped more or less like an animal, we've seen that before, 236 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: and it's nothing really to write home about. But I'm wondering. 237 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: I can't quite tell from the text. Is he's saying 238 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: that he thinks it's more likely just that it's like 239 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: a flower that's shaped like a like a lamb. Or 240 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: is he saying, well, it could be one or the other. Um, 241 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's hard to say, right. I mean, 242 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: it's easy to most A lot of people seem to 243 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: lean into the idea that he's saying, Hey, this is 244 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: real because they leave off the skeptical part of the quote. Um. 245 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: But I'm not sure exactly which way uh, the author 246 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: is leaning himself here, But certainly there's a there's a 247 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: note of skepticism here that you that is sometimes lacking 248 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: in the discussion of fantastic creatures even today. I actually 249 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: looked up the context of this to see what else 250 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: he's talking about. In the other paragraphs around this, and 251 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: in the paragraph right above his passage on the Bora 252 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: mats or the lamb of Tartari, he's talking about quote 253 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: the tarantula or poisonous spider of Calabria and that magical 254 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: cure of the bite thereof by music. So this is 255 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: a spider whose bite is cured by music. I think 256 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: he also says that tarantula's will dance to mu sick. 257 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: I was turned to figure out what this man he 258 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: says quote. Some also affirmed that the tarantula itself will 259 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: daunce upon certain strokes. The more you know. Yeah, uh so. 260 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: I mentioned Carol Rose earlier source ive in turn too, 261 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: and in her book Giants, Monsters and Dragons, she summarized 262 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: as many of the orl the overall traditions of the 263 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: Bora Mets as follows quote. In general, the bora mets 264 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: was believed to be a creature with roots that held 265 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: it fast in one place, it resembled a lamb sheep 266 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: with golden colored fleece. The stalk allowed it to browse 267 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: the surrounding pasture, but as soon as this was consumed, 268 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: the creature died of starvation. Humans or wolves then came 269 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: and harvested the body, which was said to taste like 270 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: crab meat. It's whos were made of hair, which which 271 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: like its fleece, was used by humans for weaving clothes. Yeah. 272 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: So this seems to be a pretty good description of 273 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: that other version. We have the two main models, which 274 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: are very different, the one of Mandeville, which is like 275 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: there are lambs in the fruits. The fruits are like 276 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: these gourds. You cut them open inside their little tiny 277 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: lambs and you can eat them. And then there's this 278 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: other version sited in a bunch of sources and summarized 279 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: by rows here, where it's a full sized lamb or 280 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: sheep and it is attached to the plant stem by 281 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: its navel, which acts like a tether, and it eats 282 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: all of the vegetation around it, which I love this detail. 283 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: It can only survive until it has grazed all of 284 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: the plant life within the radius of its umbilical stem, 285 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: and then when it can't reach any more vegetation to 286 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: graze on, it starves to death and dies unless a 287 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: wolf for a human gets to it first and and 288 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: kills it for meat. Right, And I think we'll have 289 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: more on the wolf, the wolf side of the part 290 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: of this changes um. I love that it tastes like crab, 291 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: and it's just it's just such a thing. You can 292 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: also just see like this is what happens when an 293 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: already fabulous account is given time to sort of fester 294 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: or ripen um. And also with the help of you know, books, 295 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: talking to other books and translations and mistranslations taking place. 296 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: Thank now, based on all these medieval sources I found 297 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: cataloged in in Lee's book, uh Rosa's summary seems to 298 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: me very correct, with one exception, which is the characterization. 299 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: She says that the fleece of the vegetable lamb is 300 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: golden in color. But based on everything I've read, that's 301 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: something that you find more in the later sources. The 302 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: earlier sources, if they mentioned the color of the fleece, 303 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: they describe it as pale white. And later it's only 304 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: in later sources like Erasmus Darwin that changed this to golden. 305 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: And Lee will will end up arguing that there's a 306 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: very specific reason for this change that has to do 307 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: with the rationalist explanation of the lamb given in later centuries. 308 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: And in fact, since I mentioned it, maybe I should 309 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: go ahead and read a passage from Erasmus Darwin. This 310 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: this is written much later, but but in Darwin's work 311 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: The Botanic Garden, which is a grand poem about about 312 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: the natural world, about the plant world, written in Darwin writes, quote, 313 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: even round the pole, the flames of love aspire, and 314 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: icy bosoms feel the secret fire cradled in snow and 315 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: fanned by arctic air, shines gentle bora mets like golden 316 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: hair rooted in the earth. Each cloven foot descends and 317 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: round and round her flexile neck. She bends crops the 318 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: gray coral moss in hoary time or lapse, with rosy tongue, 319 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: the melting rhyme eyes, with mute tenderness, her distant damn, 320 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: and seems to bleat a vegetable lamb. Oh that's wonderful. Yeah, well, 321 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: I can't top that. But one of the sources I 322 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: was looking at is the work Engelbert Comfort and the 323 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: Myth of the Scythian Lamb by Robert W. H. Karuba, 324 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: and this is published in the Classical World in ninety 325 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: In this the author points out that while the lamb 326 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: is largely a product of the Middle Ages, some passages 327 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: by classical authors such as Herodotus and Theophrastus quote played 328 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: an innocent role in its development. And we'll have more 329 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: on those two authors in a in a bit. Yeah, 330 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: I think we'll have to revisit the links to Herodotus 331 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: and the other Greek authors in part two, because that 332 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: ties directly into what I think is probably the best 333 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: theory for explaining the lamb legend. But but it is 334 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: I think worth noting in this part some other works 335 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: preceding the story as told by John Mandeville, and I 336 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: guess we'll come back to those in just a little bit. Yeah. Now, 337 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: Karupa also describes the lamb as a zoo fight, which 338 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: is an actual classification, or sort of was the actual 339 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: classification for plant like animals. And this kind of comes 340 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: back to our larger discussion that we're having in the 341 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: in having last week on the show. So the sescile 342 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: nature of plants is a big part of their identity, 343 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: but we do have non plants and even animals that 344 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: have taken on similar modes of existence. Um. However, I 345 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: do wonder if it's correct to think of the lamb 346 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: here or fantastic as it may be, as a plant 347 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: like animal or an animal like plant. I in my notes, 348 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: I kept wanting to refer to it as the creature, uh, 349 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: but but then felt weird about calling it a creature 350 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: when it really seems more like a creature like plant. Yeah. 351 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what takes taxonomic precedence there. I mean, obviously, 352 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: in the real world there are plants that have interesting 353 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: characteristics of animals, like like the ones we talked about 354 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: in the episodes from last week, the sensitive plant Mimosa pudico, 355 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: which shows rapid movement. Of course, the venus flytrap is 356 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: another example these seised monastic movements. Would that allow a 357 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: plant to have movement on the time scale you would 358 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: normally only associate with an animal. And then of course 359 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: you can have animals that have characteristics we would associate 360 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: with plants that might animals that might look like plants 361 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: in some way. They have some kind of camouflage that 362 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,239 Speaker 1: looks like the agetation I think of the you know, 363 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: like the sloths that look like they're they're covered in 364 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: some kind of plant life. Or there are even some 365 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: animals that have the power to absorb energy from the 366 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: sunlight like plants do, like I believe there are, um uh, 367 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: there are certain salamanders that have evolved ways to do this, 368 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: and there might be a seek cucumber example. Uh uh. So, 369 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: so you can find characteristics normally associated with one in 370 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: the other. But then again, there are no such things 371 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: as animal plant combinations. Like animals and plants are too 372 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: far removed, too far removed in the tree of life 373 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: to like interbreed or anything like that. Right, But nevertheless, 374 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: we do get this concept in in the Middle Ages 375 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: of of the zoophyte. One I was reading about in 376 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: the same context as as the vegetable lamb of Tartari 377 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: was the so called barnacle goose Smith. I think they're 378 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: they're different ways this has been conceptualized. But there's like 379 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: a type of goose that at various times in history 380 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: has been thought to bud off of barnacles, like in 381 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: the water. So it's it's not actually a land animal 382 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: or a bird. It's uh, it's it's actually some kind 383 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: of kind of fish or water animal. Or they even 384 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: say that this goose maybe came out of trees. So 385 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: it's okay to eat this goose on Friday's even if 386 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: you're supposed to fast for meat on Friday's because it's 387 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: not actually a bird, it is a plant. That that 388 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: reminds me of our episode The Furry Fish, and which 389 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: we were discussing otters a bit. Uh. And if you 390 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: didn't listen to it, why would we discuss otters in 391 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: an episode about the furry Fish. Well that was because uh, 392 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: in some places there were discussions, well, what do we 393 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: called otter like, is it lives in the water, It 394 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: does things that seem very fish like. Therefore, is it 395 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: okay uh for us to uh to to eat the 396 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: flesh of the otter as if it were a fish. 397 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: Is it going to be um? Uh? Is it going 398 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: to be subject to the same rules concerning dietary rules 399 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: concerning the consumption of of non ish meat that sort 400 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: of thing. That kind of thing just doesn't really fly anymore, 401 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: does it. Like, you can't you can't bring a goose 402 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: to a vegan pot luck and say no, this goose 403 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: came off of a tree. Uh it was it's actually 404 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: a fruit. Well, we can't say it yet, but something 405 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: we might get into in a later episode or even 406 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: in the next episode a little bit. Is when we 407 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: reach the day when you can do that, when you 408 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: can say no, this goose meat is all right because 409 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: it was not harvested from the wild. It was grown 410 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: off of something I picked it this morning. Another example 411 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: that sometimes mentioned in terms of zoo fights from Chinese 412 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: traditions it frequently comes up, is that of cort aceps. 413 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: This is, of course, when you have courtceps, you have 414 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: these parasitic funguses that will overtake an insect, resulting in 415 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 1: something They would certainly be confusing and difficult to classify 416 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: if you didn't know what was going on. These have 417 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: long been a part of Chinese traditional medicine. Uh, quite 418 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: popular and uh I remember when I was last in 419 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: China about I think nine years ago, I remember seeing 420 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: an entire store front filled with these. And you can 421 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: still you can find court accepts, you know, for sale 422 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: anywhere Chinese traditional medicine and Chinese traditional medical products are sold. 423 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's quite Uh. If you just look at 424 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: one of these specimens, it's you can see where the 425 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: confusion might might might occur, and you might think, well, 426 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: this is clearly neither. It's not quite an animal, but 427 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: it's not quite something else either. Yeah. So if things 428 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: like this exists, I mean, why not a vegetable lamb? Right, 429 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: Well we can talk about why not later on, but yeah, 430 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean one wants to have some you know, give 431 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: some leeway to medieval thinkers, because uh, if you don't 432 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: have a a theory that helps you organize claims about 433 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: the natural world into plausible and implausible, you you do 434 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: at least no, Well, the natural world is full of 435 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: surprising things. So why not a vegetable lamb? Why not 436 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: a plant that grows a mammal out of it? Yeah? So, So, 437 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: going back to that work by Karuba, the author points 438 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: to ways that the idea was popularized later on by 439 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: such writers as as dr Arrastmus star One, who we 440 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: quoted earlier with the bleeding quote. There. Uh, we also 441 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: have Garo Lama Cardano and Julius Caesar Scalager. But Karuba 442 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 1: here's chiefly dealing with the work of Ingelbert Comfort on 443 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: the subject. Comfort was a German naturalist who lived sixteen 444 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: fifty one through seventeen sixteen, and who was actually himself 445 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: widely traveled, having toured Russia, Persia, India, Southeast Asia and Japan. 446 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: His book History of Japan was the main Western source 447 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: on Japan for nearly two centuries. So he's he's kind 448 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: of the ideal individual to weigh in on the lamb 449 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: of targary uh and and so so he uh so 450 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: he does. Um he Now, as far as Karuba here goes, 451 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: he begins by by citing yet another description of this 452 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: marvel uh, this time from the writings of French botanist 453 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: Claude duree, and this one was apparently highly influential during 454 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: the eighteenth century. Quote in Tartary, there are seeds which 455 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: are like the seeds of gourd's, only shorter in size, 456 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,479 Speaker 1: which grow and blossom like a stem to the navel 457 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: of an animal, which is called a boro mats in 458 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: their language, I e. Lamb, because it resembles a lamb, 459 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: and all its limbs from head to foot. Its hoofs 460 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: are cloven, its skin is soft, its wool is adapted 461 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: for clothing. But it has no horns, only hairs on 462 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: its head, which grow and are intertwined like horns. Its 463 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: height is half a cubit and more. According to those 464 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: who speak of this wondrous thing, It's taste is like 465 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: the flesh of fish. It's blood as sweet as honey. 466 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: And it lives as long as there is herbage within 467 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: range of the stem from which it derives its life. 468 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: If the herbage is destroyed or parishes, the animal also 469 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: dies away. It has rest from all beasts and birds 470 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: of prey, except the wolf, which seeks to destroy it. 471 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: I wonder why only the wolf. I don't know, only 472 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: the wolf, and and I guess in some telling people, 473 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: but Okay, so we this time. It's flesh tastes like fish, 474 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: It's blood is as sweet as honey, and it lives 475 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: until the wolf gets it or again it eats all 476 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: of the herbage within reach of the stem. Right, so 477 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: comfort was interested in this, and in Comforts writing UH, 478 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: he discusses the origin of the word uh, as he 479 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: derived at the bora mets or bora mets to the 480 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: Slavic baron and the Persian bare, both meaning sheep apparently, 481 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: but he also points out that the the actual Scythian 482 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: sheep is rather different from the common variety of sheep 483 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: in Germany. He says, it's bigger, it has different um, 484 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: I believe. It is later described as a massive tail, 485 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: and it has a massive fat that drags around behind it. Um. 486 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: It's at and meat and are both delicious, and its 487 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: hide as prized as well. I don't know quite what 488 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: to make of this uh description of a massive fat 489 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: tail and uh, and Karuba doesn't really go into it, 490 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: but having having related this conference, basically saying okay, look, granted, um, 491 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: the sheep over there don't look quite like the sheep 492 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: we have here. But when I was traveling in regions, 493 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: you know that would have been familiar with this. Surely 494 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: no one knew what I was talking about. No one 495 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: had ever heard of a Bora Mets as described in 496 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 1: these traditions, and so he ruled that it is quote 497 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: pure fiction and fable. Yeah, it seems to me that 498 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: while the story was taken as generally true by authors 499 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages, by like the eighteenth centuries, authors 500 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: who wrote about it seemed to be more often skeptical. Like. 501 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: Another one who was skeptical not so much of the 502 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: initial reports but of their interpretation was the seventeenth century 503 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: German polymath Thanaceous Kircher, who's come up on the podcast 504 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: several times before. Apparently, Kircher wrote quote, some authors have 505 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: regarded it as an animal, some as a plant, whilst 506 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: others have classified it as a true zoophyte. In order 507 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: not to multiply miracles, we assert that it is a plant, 508 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: though it's form be that of a quadruped, and the 509 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: juice beneath its willy covering be blood, which flows. If 510 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: an incision be made in its flesh, these things will 511 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: not move us. It will be found to be a plant. 512 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: And I was like, WHOA tell it like it is 513 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I think once the series is over, Kircher 514 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: will be vindicated. But but it's interesting how how certain 515 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: he is in this writing of this thing he's never 516 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: seen for himself. Well, you know, the thing is, if 517 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: you have even even a halfway broad familiarity with plants 518 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: of of of many of any given region, you know, 519 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: there's a good chance you will be familiar with things 520 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: that do resemble uh say blood, Like if you know 521 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: anything about beats, then the idea that some sort of 522 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: plant uh has blood in it or something that looks 523 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: like blood shouldn't be that shocking. In fact, this brings 524 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: to mind something we talked about in our episode on beans. 525 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: You remember that strange observation from the ancient world that 526 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: the the Pythagoreans uh did not eat beans, And in fact, 527 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: there's even a story, and it's hard to know if 528 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: it's true, but there's a claim that Pythagoras died being 529 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: pursued by a violent mob because he was running away 530 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: from them. But he wouldn't run through a bean field, 531 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: because I don't know. That's a strange thing to wonder why, 532 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: And so people want to know what's the secret of 533 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: the beans? Why? Why does pythagoras have this this being problem. 534 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: And there were a lot of different explanations we talked 535 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: about in then that episode, but one of the possibilities 536 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: was the modern observation that bean plants sometimes appear to 537 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: bleed like. Bean plants have these little nodes in their 538 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: roots that can become infected with a bacterium known as rhizobium. 539 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: And I think if you if you cut these open, uh, 540 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: these bacterial nodes actually produce a hemoglobin like molecule that 541 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: that works pretty much the same way as the hemoglobin 542 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: in our blood, binding with oxygen. And the result is 543 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: that if you cut these things open, you get this 544 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: red juice coming out of them that looks almost exactly 545 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: like human blood. So somebody might have cut a bean 546 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: plant open and been like, whoa, this thing is bleeding 547 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: like a human or at least like an animal. So, 548 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: uh So, I don't know, maybe maybe we shouldn't need 549 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: these things. Maybe they have the souls of our ancestors 550 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: in him or something. You can imagine a similar thing 551 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: going on with some other plant, right, you know, you 552 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: could observe that it might produce a juice that looks 553 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: shockingly like animal blood. Yeah, like like I I don't really, 554 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: I don't cook with uh with with you know, meats 555 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: that have blood in them anymore. But but on the 556 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: when I do cook with beats and I'm like cutting beats, 557 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: I'm always just taken by how horrific everything looks. You know. Yes, 558 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: it's uh you know, I feel like I'm in a 559 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: horror movie because I'm covered with his red juice and 560 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: I'm holding a butcher knife and so forth. Yeah, I'll 561 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: save you. If you're eating beats for the first time, 562 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: let me save you some googling. If you go to 563 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: the bathroom later, You're not dying, that's normal. Yeah, just 564 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: remember that you had beats early. Yeah, all right. Anyway 565 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: back to uh Karuba and his writings that Comfort here 566 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: um from from Here. In his work, Comfort goes on 567 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: to discuss the possible origins of the myth, and this 568 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: is what Karuba has to say about it is how 569 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: he summarizes it. Quote as to the origin of the myth, 570 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: Comfort can only speculate that the museum specimens of delicate 571 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: fetal fur can easily be confused with vegetable substance, and 572 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: that geological distance, linguistic misunderstanding, and the inclination to believe 573 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: in wonders or prodigies provide the explan nation. Comfort's account 574 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: is noteworthy because it debunked the myth by eyewitness investigation, 575 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: provided a first detailed description of the real Scythian lamb. Uh. 576 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: You know that's the the one with the supposed fat 577 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: tail and practices associated with it. You know what people 578 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: do with it that they like to you know, eat 579 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: eat it and uh, you know they use the hide 580 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: and attempted to explain rationally the origin of the myth. 581 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: This is similar to what Lee says actually about Camphor. 582 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: He says that he thinks that camp forgot the rational 583 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: explanation of the myth wrong, like he thinks for many 584 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: reasons it is not actually it was not actually inspired 585 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: by this practices of harvesting the hides of fetal Scythian lambs, 586 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: But at least that Camphor was like, no, let's look 587 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: for an explanation that's more biologically plausible than than a 588 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: plant that grows into a mammal. Yeah, you know, one 589 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: of the things that maybe this is one of the 590 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: things that's so attracted me about the weirdness of the 591 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: vegetable lamb of chartari is that in its most elaborate form, 592 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: it it seems like such a contradiction to our other 593 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: tales of the fantastic. So many creatures you encounter in 594 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: a medieval bestiara or any kind of folklore and mythology. 595 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: The wilder the form, the more dangerous, the more mysterious, 596 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: the further away from human culture. And this is a 597 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: thing that is like the domestic lamb, made even more harmless. 598 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 1: You know, it is this the fantastic but mundane qualities 599 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: of the of the vegetable lamb. Right, It's not something 600 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: that is fearsome and free and uncontrollable and and all that. 601 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: It's it's something that's like a standard part of animal agriculture, 602 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: except it's just like mixing these different categories together. It's 603 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: an utterly mundane part of life. It's like a story 604 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: about a psychic TV dinner. It's just you know, yeah, 605 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: it's so it It really seems to buck the trend 606 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: in so many ways. And uh and and I'm I'm 607 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: guessing maybe that's why people were fascinated back then as well, 608 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: you know, like, you know, everybody was into the You're 609 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: always into the idea of dragons and strange snakes, and yes, 610 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: all the monsters of the sea. But but here's something 611 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 1: that just sounds crazy and and uh and and it's 612 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: helpless out there, you know. I mean, the wolves are 613 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: just coming up in and chopping these things. Yeah, you 614 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: feel sad for it when you hear the myth. Yeah, 615 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: like if the wolves don't get it, it's it's doomed 616 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: to starve to death pretty quick because you know, it's 617 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: only got that short radius of stem length to eat 618 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: the vegetation from. Right. Well, okay, there's one more thing 619 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: I wanted to get to from the Henry Lee book, 620 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: which is that Lee actually includes analysis of similar legends 621 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: that are traced back to a little bit before the 622 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 1: time of Sir John Mandefil. Okay, so this is about 623 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: to turn into a chain of citations for a minute, 624 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: but it gets pretty interesting, so stick with me. So 625 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: Henry Lee notices first that Claude Durey, when you were 626 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: talking about earlier in a work called the Estuar Admirab, 627 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: how you say that in French? Admirable Admirab de plant 628 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: uh in sixteen o five writes that he once read 629 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: in a Latin version of the of the Jewish commentary 630 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,959 Speaker 1: work the Jerusalem Talmud, a claim attributed to an Ethiopian 631 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: scholar named Moses Choucensus quote that there was a certain 632 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: country of the earth which bore a zoophyte or plant 633 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,240 Speaker 1: animal called in Hebrew jedua. It was informed like a lamb, 634 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: and from its navel grew a stem or root by 635 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: which this zoophyte or plant animal was fixed attached like 636 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: a gourd to the soil below the surface of the ground. 637 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,479 Speaker 1: And according to the length of its stem or root, 638 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: it devoured all the herbage which it was able to 639 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: reach within the circle of its tether. The hunters who 640 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: went in search of this creature were unable to capture 641 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: or remove it until they had succeeded in cutting the 642 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: stem by well aimed arrows or darts. When the animal 643 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: immediately fell prostrate to the earth and died, it's bones 644 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: being placed with certain ceremonies and incantations in the mouth 645 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: of one desiring to foretell the future, he was instantly 646 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: seized with a spirit of divination and endowed with the 647 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: gift of prophecy. So that's a new wrinkle, Okay. So 648 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: this this lamb is not only a vegetable that's sethered 649 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: to the ground by stem. You have to kill it 650 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: by severing the stem with arrows or darts. They don't 651 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: say why in this source, but we'll get to another 652 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: one in a minute. And then it falls down, and 653 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: then you take this lamb's bones and you put the 654 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: bones in your mouth with with special magic spells that 655 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: allow you to tell the future. That's interesting because yeah, 656 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 1: so many of these other accounts we're looking at they 657 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: just say, oh, well, it tastes great, It tastes like fish, 658 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 1: it tastes like crab. It's just really good to eat, 659 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: and you can use the hide, and you know, generally 660 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: that's in most traditions, like that's what you're concerned with 661 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 1: with the body of an animal. But then of course 662 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: when you're dealing with the the body of a plant 663 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: and the parts of a plant, you know, as as 664 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: we've got into a bit in um in last week's episodes, 665 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, history is is a tale of 666 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,720 Speaker 1: humans figuring out how to use different parts of the plant, 667 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: what the what it will do, what it seems to do, 668 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: you know, and figuring out all the ways that the 669 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: natural chemical properties and chemical weapons and defenses of the 670 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: plant can be used for for curative reasons or preventative reasons, 671 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: and so in this, yeah, we're kind of leaning more 672 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: into the planting nous of it that it's going to have. 673 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: They're going to be effects to eating it, and you know, 674 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: certainly these are magical effects, but their effects nonetheless, Oh, 675 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: I thought you were going to go in the direction 676 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: of wondering about psychopharmacology. So if this is you put 677 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 1: it in your mouth and then you can see the future, Okay, 678 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: I mean that's that's that's part of it too. Yeah. 679 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: So anyway that this is Deray referring back to what 680 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: he what he calls the Jerusalem Talmud. Technically there are 681 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: two major Talmud traditions. I think that the Babylonian and 682 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 1: the Jerusalem Talmud. And the Talmud is the the text 683 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: of Jewish rabbinical law, so it includes records of oral 684 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: teaching in Judaism and commentary on the Torah and things 685 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: like that. Uh So, Lee says that he went searching 686 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: for this story in the Talmud and he couldn't find it. 687 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: So he had to consult a scholar named Reverend Dr. 688 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: Hermann Adler, who was Chief Rabbi Delegate of the United 689 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: Congregations of the British Empires, so this would have been 690 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,720 Speaker 1: at the time that Lee was writing in the eighteen eighties. 691 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: And he says that Adler was actually able to find 692 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: the real source. So this goes back to from before 693 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: John Mandeville. So it's in a section of the Jerusalem 694 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: Talmud called the Mishna Killayim, and there is a section 695 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: here that reads as quote, creatures called adne hassada or 696 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: literally lords of the field are regarded as beasts. And 697 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 1: there's a variant reading of abney hassada meaning stones of 698 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: the field, not lords of the field. And so Adler 699 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: was writing about this, and he found that there was 700 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: a medieval commentary on this passage written by a Rabbi 701 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 1: Simion of Sins, which is a place in France, and 702 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: Rabbi Simeon lived in the twelfth and early thirteenth century, 703 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: and he writes, quote, it is stated in the Jerusalem 704 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: Talmud that this is a human being of the mountains. 705 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 1: It lives by means of its navel. If its navel becut, 706 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: it cannot live. I have heard in the name of 707 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 1: Rabbi Meyer the son of Callinimus a spire that this 708 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: is the animal called jetua. This is the jeduy mentioned 709 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: in scripture literally wizard from Leviticus nineteen. With its bones. 710 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: Witchcraft is practiced. A kind of large stem issues from 711 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: a root in the earth, on which this animal called 712 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: jatua grows, just as gourds and melons, only the jattua 713 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: has in all respects a human shape in face, body, 714 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: hands and feet. By its navel, it is joined to 715 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: the stem that issues from the root. No creature can 716 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: approach within the tether of the stem, for it seizes 717 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: and kills them. Within the tether of the stem, it 718 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: devours the herbage all around. When they want to capture it, 719 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: no man dares approach, but they tear at the stem 720 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: until it is ruptured, whereupon the animal dies. And then 721 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: there's another commentator named Rabbi Obadia Obadia of Bourbon Oro 722 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: that adds that you have to use arrows to to 723 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: sever the stem, presumably because you can't get close enough 724 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: to hack at it with the sword or the jettooh 725 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,800 Speaker 1: will kill you. And I think this is really interesting. 726 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: So if you go back even earlier than Mandeville, of course, 727 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,240 Speaker 1: Mandeville wasn't telling the story about it being this beast 728 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: on the tether. Mandeville's version was the gourd fruits that 729 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 1: had the little lambs inside. But if you go back 730 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,879 Speaker 1: earlier than these other stories, you have this version that's 731 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,720 Speaker 1: similar in pretty much every way, except it's not a lamb. 732 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,240 Speaker 1: It's like a human shape. Yeah, this is this is fascinating. 733 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: First of all, I love how all these later accounts 734 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 1: we're looking at they're all about that herbage. It's all 735 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: about getting up that herbage. But but yeah, here with 736 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: this we have this, uh, we have this this ferocious 737 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 1: version of its something that's more in keeping with with 738 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,319 Speaker 1: what we were saying, what you you tend to want 739 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: to expect from the wild world of myth and and monsters, 740 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,359 Speaker 1: something you dare not approach. Uh and if you do, 741 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,479 Speaker 1: you better know exactly where it's weak spot is. Uh. 742 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 1: And and yeah, so it's um. I mean, I guess 743 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 1: this is kind of a uh. You have shades of 744 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:33,839 Speaker 1: of of of of umbilical cords and mammals here being 745 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: compared to uh two plants being rooted to the soil. 746 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,479 Speaker 1: Um and of course not only plants, but this would 747 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: have been observed with things like mushrooms as well, with 748 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,720 Speaker 1: stems emerging from the soil and so forth. Um. Yeah, 749 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,280 Speaker 1: and then I guess one would imagine then that essentially 750 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: you have converging mythologies about things that are not plants 751 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: rooted to the ground. Yeah. Yeah, it's so strange and 752 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: interesting and Uh, Anyway, I think in the next episode 753 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: is when we'll have to come back to discuss some 754 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,399 Speaker 1: of the rational theories about the origin of the myth 755 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: and I think, uh, there's some pretty good explanations on offer, 756 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: especially the one by Henry Lee, but but there are 757 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: multiple ones that have been put forward over the years. Um. 758 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 1: One last thing before we wrap up this episode is 759 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to mention how reading about the history of 760 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: this mythological creature really makes me think about the benefits 761 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: of having an evolutionary perspective on biology, because, of course, 762 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: the nature is full of surprises, shocking surprises, but it 763 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: also obeys deterministic physical laws, the most important of which 764 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: are probably common descent and evolution and natural selection. And 765 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 1: I think having an evolutionary perspective on life can help 766 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: you sort out which types of surprising claims about nature 767 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 1: are actually plausible and which are not so. The idea 768 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: of a lamb that grows from a plant is not 769 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: really remotely plausible if you understand that complex multicellular life 770 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 1: forms arise only by varying and building upon the morphology 771 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,439 Speaker 1: of direct ancestors. You know, plants and animals arise from 772 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,239 Speaker 1: different chains of ancestors that diverged more than one point 773 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 1: five billion years ago. So given what we know about 774 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: plants and animals today, you're not going to get a 775 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,280 Speaker 1: plant that grows quadrupedal mammalians with with bones and blood 776 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: and fur out of it like that. You know, there 777 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: are tons of shocking, amazing things about the natural world, 778 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,760 Speaker 1: but they're shocking and amazing within something that makes sense, cladistically, 779 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 1: within something that makes sense from the ancestors they emerged from. 780 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: There's no physically plausible scenario in which a plant like 781 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: that exists, given what we know about the history of 782 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 1: life on Earth. But the authors of the Middle Ages, 783 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,759 Speaker 1: even if they were intelligent and well informed people, were 784 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,760 Speaker 1: not armed with a theory of biology that would allow 785 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: them to tell the difference between an extra ordinary but 786 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 1: physically plausible claim about nature. And there are tons of 787 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,840 Speaker 1: those that turn out to be true and a claim 788 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,800 Speaker 1: that just simply wouldn't happen because it doesn't make sense. 789 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: Uh though, I think it's also interesting that even without 790 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: a theory, even without a formal scientific theory explaining why 791 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: this organism is pretty much impossible within the context of 792 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: known Earth life, some people of the of the pre evolution, 793 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,920 Speaker 1: the pre Darwin past had some kind of intuition that 794 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,320 Speaker 1: caused them to reject this story. Like Kircher for example. 795 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,240 Speaker 1: He wasn't the only one, but you know, athanaceous Kircher 796 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: looks at these stories, he says, no, this is people 797 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: are just getting confused. This is a plant. And so 798 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,439 Speaker 1: even without a theory of evolution, some people were able 799 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: to look at that story and thing not. Nature is 800 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: full of wonders, but that's not one of them. And 801 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: I wonder, like, what are those intuitions that that's an 802 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: interesting question on its own. Yeah, yeah, because it's likewise, 803 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,720 Speaker 1: it's hard for us to divorce ourselves from our basic 804 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: understanding of the differences between plan and animals. You know. Um, 805 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,719 Speaker 1: like I my mind instantly goes to some of the 806 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,760 Speaker 1: just really amazing examples of mimicry in the world. Um, 807 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,279 Speaker 1: you know, and and a lot of times they are 808 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: just really really amazing, but they're they're sort of limits 809 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 1: to them. You know. It's like this, here's an organism 810 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,919 Speaker 1: that has evolved over time to have part of its 811 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 1: anatomy or some function of its anatomy resembling that of 812 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 1: another organism. Uh, you know what. There are various examples 813 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 1: of this, but like one simple one is a a 814 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: non toxic organism resembling the coloration of a toxic organism organism. Right, 815 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 1: But but that's but there's a limit to it, right, 816 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: It's not like where the act of mimicry also involves 817 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,560 Speaker 1: having the toxin, uh, you know, and so forth, not 818 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 1: without a long intervening period of having to develop that yeah, right, right, 819 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: Or likewise, you know, part of an animal resembling a 820 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 1: false head, it doesn't actually that head doesn't have functional 821 00:46:55,680 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: eyeballs inside it, and so forth. But but but yeah, 822 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: it's it's hard to put yourself in the mindset where 823 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,720 Speaker 1: you don't have some of these basic laws in place 824 00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,319 Speaker 1: and these basic differences in place in your mind. Yeah, 825 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,320 Speaker 1: you just don't know what goes and what doesn't. Yeah, 826 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it is actually interesting reading some of the 827 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: reasons given by these by these late medieval authors or 828 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: Renaissance authors, Uh that that came before they had a 829 00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,480 Speaker 1: theory of evolution. But they had other reasons, some of 830 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: which are spurious but interesting to to read through. Like 831 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,399 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, a guy named giro Lamo Cardano. Uh. 832 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:36,359 Speaker 1: This was uh an author of of Pavia, and he 833 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 1: was writing in the mid sixteenth century. And I remember 834 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:46,480 Speaker 1: he argued that this plant animal thing couldn't really exist because, uh, 835 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,400 Speaker 1: in order to have blood, it has to have a heart, 836 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,359 Speaker 1: and the soil that the plant was growing in, uh 837 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,359 Speaker 1: did not have enough heat to create a heart. That's 838 00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,279 Speaker 1: what he said. All right, Well, I mean it's the 839 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,879 Speaker 1: reason it's a channel. Um. I mean, I think he's 840 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,240 Speaker 1: sort of on the right track, but it also sounds 841 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 1: kind of ad hoc. It's like he's just sort of 842 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,320 Speaker 1: making this up. Well, you know, to take it another 843 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 1: direction here, Like I was thinking back to some of 844 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 1: the things we discussed last week, and okay, so the 845 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:17,919 Speaker 1: idea that you would have a plant that would grow 846 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,799 Speaker 1: and it would essentially grow itself a sheep, and that 847 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,400 Speaker 1: sheep would eat the plants growing around it, eat the 848 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:28,319 Speaker 1: feast on the on the herbage and um. Like, the 849 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:33,480 Speaker 1: basic relationship there between this plan and the plant surrounding it, Uh, 850 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,399 Speaker 1: is not that crazy. I mean, one of the things 851 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,160 Speaker 1: we discussed is that sometimes the places we see the 852 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,439 Speaker 1: most dynamic interactions in the plant world are between one 853 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: plant and another. Um competition. Yeah, competition, even if it's 854 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 1: just you know, like two bean plants looking at the 855 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:50,880 Speaker 1: same pole, not looking at it, you know, sensing the 856 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:55,200 Speaker 1: same pole, sensing each other, and there's a competition for 857 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,719 Speaker 1: for that resource. And then in some cases, you know, 858 00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,520 Speaker 1: this the competition that's taking place, it's not being you know, 859 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,760 Speaker 1: there's no need for some sort of fabulous sheep morph 860 00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,279 Speaker 1: that grows out of the plant, because the battle is 861 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: taking place at the chemical level. You know, it's a 862 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,360 Speaker 1: more subtle battle. Uh, it's not. And it's not a 863 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,400 Speaker 1: battle that's taking place within the human realm and with 864 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,200 Speaker 1: the human time. It's taking place on on the level 865 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 1: of plant time. And therefore, for the most part, we 866 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,000 Speaker 1: do not see it. Yeah, and I see what you're 867 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 1: getting at there, Because some attempts to explain the origin 868 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,560 Speaker 1: of this myth have looked into, well, what are some 869 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,600 Speaker 1: plants that essentially rob all of the area surrounding the 870 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,960 Speaker 1: plant of nutrition or poisonous neighbors, or something that plants 871 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,719 Speaker 1: that that keep other plants from getting anywhere near them 872 00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,080 Speaker 1: to make it look like they're surrounded by these patches 873 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,440 Speaker 1: of barren earth. Oh yeah, but anyway, I think we'll 874 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,160 Speaker 1: have to wait until part two to come back and 875 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:54,120 Speaker 1: explore those explanations. That's right. But in the meantime, we 876 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:55,759 Speaker 1: would love to hear from everyone out there if you 877 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,759 Speaker 1: have thoughts on the vegetable lamb of Tartarie and just 878 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 1: you know, basically plants in general, the weirdness of plants, 879 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:07,640 Speaker 1: the weirdness of of mythic and legendary plants as well. Um. 880 00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:09,560 Speaker 1: I'm also kind of surprised there's not a Pokemon of 881 00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,200 Speaker 1: this thing, because I was, I was, I've been. My 882 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: son has been showing me a lot of Pokemon, the 883 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,120 Speaker 1: creatures in his book that he has, his big compendium. 884 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: It's a it's a bestiary of Pokemon, which I applaud. 885 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,600 Speaker 1: And they often have fantastic forms, and sometimes they have 886 00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,400 Speaker 1: forms that that remind me a little bit of vegetable 887 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 1: lamb here, Like there's a creature that has like the 888 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,719 Speaker 1: legs of a turtle, but it's then it's instead of 889 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:38,600 Speaker 1: a shell, it has like an apple pie. And then 890 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,440 Speaker 1: you know, so there are there are a number of 891 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 1: different creatures in there that have kind of animal and 892 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,360 Speaker 1: vegetable properties, uh, you know, intertwined. And I feel like 893 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,120 Speaker 1: the vegetable Lamb of Tartary should have been in there. 894 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,720 Speaker 1: So I guess, Pokemon masters, if you are out there, 895 00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,719 Speaker 1: the people who make these things, when you create some 896 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:01,080 Speaker 1: more Pokemon monsters, uh, consider making the Lamb of TARGARTI. 897 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what the three different evolutions would be, 898 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:04,920 Speaker 1: but I'm sure you'll you'll figure it out. Tell them. 899 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:10,120 Speaker 1: I know you're listening, Pokemon designers. Uh. In the meantime, 900 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:11,719 Speaker 1: if you would like to listen to other episodes of 901 00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,120 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can find core episodes 902 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,680 Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays and Stuff to Blow your Mind 903 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,839 Speaker 1: podcast feed. We have listener Mail on Monday, short form 904 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,560 Speaker 1: Monster fact or Artifact on Wednesday, and on Fridays, we 905 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,480 Speaker 1: set aside most serious concerns and just talk about a 906 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,680 Speaker 1: weird film on Weird House Cinema. H Thanks as always 907 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:33,440 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 908 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,480 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 909 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,760 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 910 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:39,520 Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hello. You can 911 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,200 Speaker 1: email us at contact and Stuff to Blow Your Mind 912 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:52,400 Speaker 1: dot Com Stuff to Blow Your Mind's production of I 913 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,200 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio with 914 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,360 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening 915 00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:11,799 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. The Big busy point four foot