Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 1: and speaker.
Speaker 2: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
Speaker 2: and course creator. We are two working parents who love
Speaker 2: our careers and our families.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 1: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
Speaker 1: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
Speaker 1: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 2: Hi, this is Sarah. Before we start with this episode,
Speaker 2: Laura and I talked about it and we want to
Speaker 2: provide a little bit of a trigger warning. This episode
Speaker 2: talks about kids advancing in milestones and some of the
Speaker 2: fun things about that as parents that many parents do
Speaker 2: look forward to in their parenting journeys. However, we recognize
Speaker 2: that not every kid progresses at a linear fashion. We
Speaker 2: know that many children out there have maybe uncertainty around
Speaker 2: their progress in various milestones, and listening to this kind
Speaker 2: of content could be really triggering if you're dealing with
Speaker 2: a kid who's not progressing in perhaps typical or expected ways.
Speaker 2: So if that does apply to you and you feel
Speaker 2: like listening to more typical celebrations of kid milestones is
Speaker 2: going to be difficult for you. I definitely suggest skipping
Speaker 2: this episode and we'll be back in your feed next week.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Welcome to Best of both Worlds.
Speaker 1: This is Laura. This episode is going to be all
Speaker 1: about parenting milestones. We sort of joked about calling it
Speaker 1: just you wait, because that is one of our least
Speaker 1: favorite phrases that people use about parenting. But we think
Speaker 1: there's actually a lot of positive milestones as kids get
Speaker 1: older that we want to talk about in this episode.
Speaker 1: So first, Sarah, that phrase just you wait, that makes
Speaker 1: every hair on your head stand up, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really don't like it. And to be clear,
Speaker 2: I don't like it when it's like, oh hah, you're
Speaker 2: like upset about not pumping enough. Well, just you wait
Speaker 2: till they're teenagers, you'll really find out what parenting challenges
Speaker 2: are about. Like I don't know, like Seasoned, there was
Speaker 2: this trope of like Seasoned parents like laughing off the
Speaker 2: trials and tribulations of parents with young kids because that's
Speaker 2: like little problems or like not really worth stressing about
Speaker 2: and it's just so belittling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or just the idea that like, oh, if you're
Speaker 1: happy now, you won't be in the future. Like if
Speaker 1: you're finding this particular time of parenting fun, like just
Speaker 1: you wait, because the heavens will strike you down or something.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it just people have a lot of
Speaker 1: negativity that then now I will admit that. There's sometimes
Speaker 1: like people have not like had children yet there's someone
Speaker 1: pregnant and they're like, oh, I'm getting all these like
Speaker 1: cashmere baby outfit, like I'll be able to pass down
Speaker 1: to my grandchildren.
Speaker 2: I mean sometimes in those baby sizes, they wear them
Speaker 2: only one time, so.
Speaker 1: It's they might be right. Maybe I would never say
Speaker 1: just you wait. I'd be like, oh, that's great. I
Speaker 1: can't wait to see it. I mean that would be yeah.
Speaker 1: And see, you wouldn't say it.
Speaker 2: You might say it in your head, but you don't
Speaker 2: need to say that out loud or like I mean,
Speaker 2: I've even had it with like oh you're running, well,
Speaker 2: just you wait, your knees are gonna hate you in
Speaker 2: a decade.
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, maybe they won't. Like I was running
Speaker 1: a decade ago and they haven't hated me yet. And
Speaker 1: why do I need to plan from.
Speaker 2: In my inevitable demise like, yeah, I know about aging
Speaker 2: and mortality, Like you don't need.
Speaker 1: To I have medical credentials. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: Well, there's a couple other phrases that are also ones
Speaker 1: that we hate, like a savor every moment, Sarah, are
Speaker 1: you enjoying every moment? I hate? Just you wait?
Speaker 2: And then these two I thought were so you like,
Speaker 2: savor every moment? And then zone defense zone defense?
Speaker 1: Yes, well, so you cannot enjoy every moment, and that
Speaker 1: is absolutely ridiculous because that just heaps like suffering on
Speaker 1: top of the misery of the current moment, like that
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be feeling good about this time. That
Speaker 1: is pretty miserable. And there's nothing really that fun about
Speaker 1: three kids screaming in the grocery store. So the person
Speaker 1: telling you to enjoy every moment is not really.
Speaker 2: I'd be like, you want to take take one of
Speaker 2: them joy moment too, the.
Speaker 1: One who's screaming loudest at the moment they can be yours. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or zone defense just we've joked about a lot of
Speaker 1: because it's a sports metaphor. We've heard this from a
Speaker 1: number of gentlemen who their family maybe having their third
Speaker 1: child and they do like, oh, we're switching from man
Speaker 1: to man to zone defense, and that seems to imply
Speaker 1: that this person has never had both two children with
Speaker 1: them on their own, because they would have already been
Speaker 1: doing zone defense if they were had had this situation
Speaker 1: occur before. So you know, and the truth is that
Speaker 1: that might actually be true, might be true. Like their ideas,
Speaker 1: it's man to man because the only times that they
Speaker 1: have their kids, their wife is there too, and so
Speaker 1: they can split them. But it is what it is, Like,
Speaker 1: we know that many people have done zone defense before
Speaker 1: the third child arrives, and so we just want to
Speaker 1: honor those who have juggled many children on their own
Speaker 1: and adding a third is just one more to the mix.
Speaker 2: But we're not gonna be negative in this episode.
Speaker 1: Can we gonna be positive?
Speaker 3: Yay?
Speaker 2: One of our potential titles was just you wait, it's
Speaker 2: gonna be great? Yes, So just because those positive parenting milestones,
Speaker 2: things that maybe we didn't even like know that we
Speaker 2: were going to look forward to, that have like made
Speaker 2: parenting maybe easier, maybe more fun, more rewarding, things that
Speaker 2: if you are pregnant right now or you have really
Speaker 2: literly little kids, we're gonna give you some fun stuff
Speaker 2: to look forward to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, Sarah, why don't you go first?
Speaker 2: I try to go kind of in age order, but
Speaker 2: well not exactly edge order, but we're gonna start with
Speaker 2: babyish stuff. So when they can buckle their own car seat,
Speaker 2: it's amazing, Like they don't even have to be able
Speaker 2: to like fully like get in themselves. But even if
Speaker 2: they can kind of like help buckle it, or they
Speaker 2: get to the point maybe when they used to fight
Speaker 2: you in buckling it and they'll cooperate, Like when that
Speaker 2: hole getting in the car thing becomes easier, it is
Speaker 2: definitely something to celebrate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, getting in the car independently is a huge milestone.
Speaker 1: It just makes getting out the door that much easier
Speaker 1: with that. Switching from like the full on car seats
Speaker 1: to a booster seat. When you can do that, it's
Speaker 1: each of day around four in a lot of states,
Speaker 1: is huge because it's just something that's more portable and
Speaker 1: then you can take a portable one with you or
Speaker 1: like rent it or buy one even if you need
Speaker 1: to in a destination. I mean, it's just so much
Speaker 1: easier than a huge car seat that you have to
Speaker 1: deal with when they don't need a booster seat at all.
Speaker 1: Even more so, you're like, any car is ours. We
Speaker 1: can get in any car. It is wild.
Speaker 2: Like Annabel is like fully my height, and I think
Speaker 2: almost done growing. And now she sits in the front seat,
Speaker 2: which is legal where we live, and it's like wow,
Speaker 2: Like if I can sit in the front seat, she
Speaker 2: can sit in the front seat, and it's kind of amazing. Okay,
Speaker 2: Now I'm like nervous about car safety people, so please
Speaker 2: look up your local laws, weigh your pros and cons.
Speaker 2: But when you feel it is safe and it is legal,
Speaker 2: it is really nice when your kids graduate from one
Speaker 2: step of protection in the car to.
Speaker 1: The next one. Yeah, well, if they are your size
Speaker 1: one would hope. I mean, we don't have laws against
Speaker 1: like small women driving cars, like at least not yet.
Speaker 3: Not yet.
Speaker 2: I hope I don't have to give up my driving privileges. Sorry,
Speaker 2: you're not five three, You're done? All right, next one, Sarah,
Speaker 2: all right? When they can talk and express their frustration,
Speaker 2: this one is amazing. And I mean, obviously it's not
Speaker 2: going to be hit at the same time for every kid.
Speaker 2: We had some kids that were talking at eighteen months
Speaker 2: and others that were like three, so you know your
Speaker 2: mileage is going to vary. But man, once they can
Speaker 2: kind of say what they want and not like turn
Speaker 2: into like a puddle of tears because they can't express that,
Speaker 2: like they want the cheese slices instead of the peanut
Speaker 2: butter or something like that, then just makes everything so
Speaker 2: much easier.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like when the kids don't just cry because I mean,
Speaker 1: when you got a little kid, you'll be in a
Speaker 1: car trip and they start crying because they're uncomfortable or
Speaker 1: they are want to get out of the car, and
Speaker 1: you do too, but you can't cry like that. So
Speaker 1: it's just the crying is something you didn't have to
Speaker 1: deal with because people, especially if you're in public, people
Speaker 1: don't like to listen to it, and it just makes
Speaker 1: every situation more stressful. There's a five year old cries
Speaker 1: for very specific reasons, right. They cry if they're upset
Speaker 1: about something, they cry if they fell down, but they
Speaker 1: don't just randomly cry. And I think that moment is
Speaker 1: parenting milestone we don't necessarily talk about quite as much,
Speaker 1: but it's there. It's as much as taking those first steps.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, and it can't happen a little bit gradually,
Speaker 2: but then you'll kind of realize, like, we don't have
Speaker 2: the sound of crying frequently in our house anymore.
Speaker 1: And that's awesome.
Speaker 2: And I'm not knocking any babies who cry like that
Speaker 2: is a perfectly appropriate and acceptable response, pre communication, et cetera.
Speaker 2: But man, it's nice to not have that be the
Speaker 2: dominant soundtrack.
Speaker 1: I will throw one in here, which is when the
Speaker 1: child can actually follow a video woo. And I'm sure
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of stuff about like putting kids on screens,
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that, you know, you want to
Speaker 1: have your babies watching Teletubbies or whatever the thing is
Speaker 1: for them now, but like when a three year old
Speaker 1: could actually watch an episode of Dora and get it,
Speaker 1: like what's happening, and so it actually entertains them. This
Speaker 1: like opens up the possibility that you can like cook
Speaker 1: dinner without a kid on your leg or something like that.
Speaker 1: It just gives you a little bit of space, and
Speaker 1: so I think that's a milestone that is worth celebrating too. Totally.
Speaker 2: That's a good one and related because I think sometimes
Speaker 2: it can be helpful for them to sit and watch
Speaker 2: when you're in this phase. Is that like magic moment.
Speaker 1: It's somewhere like.
Speaker 2: Three ish fourish, Like I'm fuzzy on exactly what it is,
Speaker 2: but when you're like, I don't have to follow this
Speaker 2: kid around to prevent them from self harm because they're
Speaker 2: gonna fall and hit their head or put something in
Speaker 2: their mouth or like, I never had a perfectly babyproofed
Speaker 2: house in part because I felt like, you can never
Speaker 2: have a perfectly baby proof house, So what's the point
Speaker 2: of having a mostly babyproof house and then like realizing
Speaker 2: it's not perfect and having like I just felt like
Speaker 2: we had to rely on like a lot of supervision
Speaker 2: for a really long time. But when you don't have
Speaker 2: to follow them around, it is magical. And I think
Speaker 2: most of us can kind of like sense when that
Speaker 2: moment has been reached.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it's unclear exactly when it is, And
Speaker 1: if you went to somebody else's house, you might still
Speaker 1: need to follow them around for a while, but there
Speaker 1: is a moment, like when you can bring your kids
Speaker 1: to someone's house and like if you're going for a
Speaker 1: play date and you like that parent, like the two
Speaker 1: of you could sit and talk in another room, right
Speaker 1: and you don't have to be there right on top
Speaker 1: of them, supervising the whole time. Yeah, that's a pretty
Speaker 1: magical moment when that happens too, totally. Well, we're going
Speaker 1: to take a quick break.
Speaker 2: We're so enthusiapatistic about these moments, we're living all these
Speaker 2: positive milestones. We will be right back with some more.
Speaker 1: Well, we are back talking about positive parenting milestones. Things
Speaker 1: you can be looking forward to if you have tiny
Speaker 1: children who need constant supervision right now. Things that will
Speaker 1: make your future feel bright. Just you wait, because it's
Speaker 1: going to be great. So, Sarah, that wonderful world of
Speaker 1: toilet independence. You guys achieved that at some point.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, when they can go to the bathroom on
Speaker 2: their own, that is miraculous. And I'll even add when
Speaker 2: we got to some point and this is gender specific
Speaker 2: because like I'm talking more in public, but we got
Speaker 2: to a point where like if I was like, had
Speaker 2: all the kids and we were shopping and then Genevieve's
Speaker 2: like I have to go to the bathroom, I can
Speaker 2: ask Annabel to take her rather than like stopping all
Speaker 2: the shopping and I'm checking out and like it's like no,
Speaker 2: so or at a restaurant, maybe I'm like, oh, do
Speaker 2: you guys both have to go and I can just
Speaker 2: stay seated. Like, if you can have your older kid
Speaker 2: help your younger kid go to the bathroom, that's like
Speaker 2: an intermediate milestone before the complete independence.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought you were talking about, like actually helping
Speaker 1: a small child in the bathroom. My older kids are
Speaker 1: not that big about doing although in babysitting it has
Speaker 1: happened that they have needed to help Henry with being
Speaker 1: in the bathroom. But he's five now, so he's pretty
Speaker 1: much there almost Sometimes it's more supervision rather than active. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he wants supervision and like making sure that he washes
Speaker 1: his hands and stuff like that. But yeah, when or
Speaker 1: when you don't even know when your kids are going
Speaker 1: to the bathroom like that is huge. And I was
Speaker 1: laughing about this because we have all our pediatrician appointments
Speaker 1: coming up in swift succession over the next month, and
Speaker 1: one of the questions they always ask them is about
Speaker 1: their bathroom habits. And some of the kids, like at
Speaker 1: age nine or whatever, will turn to me and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I can't answer that, Like I have no idea what's
Speaker 1: going on? You have to answer that, which is kind
Speaker 1: of fun when you're not really aware of what is
Speaker 1: going on totally.
Speaker 2: And I will admit I know to ask the kids,
Speaker 2: like I've learned as a clinician, like the parents don't know,
Speaker 2: and sometimes crazy stuff is uncovered when you actually asked.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, then find out who even knows what's what's
Speaker 1: going to find out? But yes, if I guess, well,
Speaker 1: you probably would know if your kid was going to
Speaker 1: the bathroom like twelve times a day. Super would be
Speaker 1: something that might come up in the course of your
Speaker 1: day to day life. Okay, So restaurants though, like you
Speaker 1: talked about having two kids go to the bathroom together
Speaker 1: in a restaurant, even being in that restaurant is a milestone.
Speaker 2: Right, yes, and not having ask for a special seat
Speaker 2: and then lug the seat around the restaurant. But everyone
Speaker 2: just going to sit down at a regular table, And yeah,
Speaker 2: that moment when you're like, oh, going out to dinner
Speaker 2: is fun again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, somebody is just holding a baby who might be crying.
Speaker 1: You have to walk around with them, or somebody's you know,
Speaker 1: anxious to get out of the away from the table.
Speaker 1: I mean, the older kids in my family are fun
Speaker 1: to go out to eat with. Alex just doesn't eat,
Speaker 1: so it's kind of not I mean, you know, he
Speaker 1: won't be ordering something, so I sort of have to
Speaker 1: just make sure he has eaten before we go, and
Speaker 1: then I guess he can be on the iPad or
Speaker 1: I can try to get him to talk or whatever,
Speaker 1: but if he's not participating in the meal, that's sort
Speaker 1: of its own thing. Henry is still a bit of
Speaker 1: a loose cannon. So that's that's the reality of a
Speaker 1: five year old. But it's getting better, Like we can
Speaker 1: in fact sit in a restaurant and if we do
Speaker 1: not eat immediately, it's not the end of the world.
Speaker 2: Yes, they don't have to bring the you know something
Speaker 2: out right away now. I think I remember a time
Speaker 2: in our lives when we had I think both a
Speaker 2: single stroller and a double stroller in the foyer of
Speaker 2: our like not very big house in Miami Beach, and
Speaker 2: I was like, someday these will not be taking up
Speaker 2: half of our house. So I think it's really exciting
Speaker 2: when you really can't imagine a use case for a
Speaker 2: stroller anymore and you can give them away.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I always remember as Henry was like three and
Speaker 1: a half or four, and the stroller sort of migrated
Speaker 1: from the front porch to the garage and never came
Speaker 1: back out, and it was like, oh, okay, that's kind
Speaker 1: of cool. Now, I'm not saying he always moves under
Speaker 1: the power of his own ambulation, like Michael will carry him.
Speaker 1: In various situations where he has declared that he does
Speaker 1: not wish to walk anymore, he winds up up on
Speaker 1: Michael's shoulders. So I could see a use case for
Speaker 1: a stroller, but we tend not to take it with us.
Speaker 1: We just rely on the fact that he's gonna walk,
Speaker 1: or in that scenario he will wind up being carried
Speaker 1: for a short distance, and at.
Speaker 2: A certain point you're just gonna be like it would
Speaker 2: be ridiculous, like seven, it would look crazy.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, I mean like Michael can't carry Alex, Like
Speaker 1: that doesn't work. Like maybe you could, but there'd be
Speaker 1: like some back injuries coming out of it, And Michael's
Speaker 1: going to tell me I guldgur him if I had to,
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, it's like a small child yes, a
Speaker 1: bigger child no. And there is a point where there
Speaker 1: is no way you would ever be walking around with
Speaker 1: the stroller because it would just be embarrassing for everyone involved.
Speaker 2: Next one is when they can read without it being
Speaker 2: an onerous chour.
Speaker 3: And we're not.
Speaker 2: Totally there yet with everybody in the family, but we
Speaker 2: are so close. And you know, reading isn't fun when
Speaker 2: you're still sounding out every word. It's just like your
Speaker 2: kid's not going to lose themselves in a book when
Speaker 2: it takes a minute to like you have to ask
Speaker 2: for help with every third word. So this is when
Speaker 2: I'm not we're not quite there, but I'm very much
Speaker 2: looking forward to and I've seen it happen with my
Speaker 2: big kids, so I know it can.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and even just when kids can read in general,
Speaker 1: because then they can deal with like the world on
Speaker 1: its like there are things that come with instructions, or
Speaker 1: there are things that sign a sign, or if you're
Speaker 1: turning on a television, seeing what the thing is that
Speaker 1: it says on there, or you know, there's just reading
Speaker 1: is obviously useful. Literacy is a helpful skill. That's why
Speaker 1: we learn it. But it's just one other way that
Speaker 1: they can entertain themselves. And I think one of the
Speaker 1: reasons small kids wind up on screens a lot is
Speaker 1: because they can watch a show and can't read, whereas
Speaker 1: there becomes a point when they're six, seven, eight that
Speaker 1: they start to become a more fluid reader, and then
Speaker 1: things that are printed become as interesting as some of
Speaker 1: the shows, and so it can wind up being a
Speaker 1: bit more of a balance, and you may not have
Speaker 1: to build up more of that habit if they have
Speaker 1: developed more of an interest in shows and movies and
Speaker 1: things like that. But I think it's doable. And one
Speaker 1: of the things we do is they carve out time
Speaker 1: in the evening where people can't have their screens and
Speaker 1: so they can stay up if they want, but they're
Speaker 1: going to be reading, and hopefully that helps build the habit.
Speaker 2: Yes, well here is a fun one when they can
Speaker 2: take their own shower and or wash their own hair.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is I mean, and there's It's an interesting
Speaker 1: thing what age like kids stop wanting you to be
Speaker 1: involved with it at all. And we talked about this
Speaker 1: in another episode of It, being around ten or eleven,
Speaker 1: that they like actually start really not wanting you anywhere
Speaker 1: near them while they are bathing or taking care of
Speaker 1: other personal things, whether that's changing or something else. And
Speaker 1: so it's interesting to watch that as a milestone. But
Speaker 1: what that also means is that you're not involved in
Speaker 1: the bathing process. Now, that can be a double edged sword,
Speaker 1: because my experience is that some tween boys are good
Speaker 1: about deciding to shower on a regular basis. Some just
Speaker 1: don't think it needs to be a priority, and so
Speaker 1: wouldn't if you were not more actively involved in making
Speaker 1: sure it happens. So you know, you need to go
Speaker 1: in and tell them to do it, even if you
Speaker 1: are not actively supervising the process.
Speaker 2: I feel like your problem is you don't live in
Speaker 2: a hot enough climate with kids that play sports outside,
Speaker 2: because it's like you could not poss I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like there are I mean just from being
Speaker 1: around other tween boys too. You know that, like not everyone,
Speaker 1: it's not a natural thing. Like the overlap of when
Speaker 1: you need to shower daily and when you decide to
Speaker 1: shower daily is not always immediately. You know, those milestones
Speaker 1: don't actually happen at the same time all the time.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2: And even before they don't want you in there, there's
Speaker 2: a point where you can send them like it's so
Speaker 2: much nicer to be on vacation and be like Genevieve,
Speaker 2: go take a shower. Versus like, Okay, I'm gonna have
Speaker 2: to micromanage this shower like you, especially when they don't
Speaker 2: have a tub or something like that in a hotel room.
Speaker 1: It's just nice. Yeah, no, very very true. And with
Speaker 1: that doing their own hair, I mean this is less
Speaker 1: of a thing for me. I guess you have multiple girls, yeah,
Speaker 1: do not do her own hair.
Speaker 2: So like I have one kid who is like Annaba
Speaker 2: broke her finger and I had to do her hair
Speaker 2: and I was like, wow, I really haven't done this
Speaker 2: in many, many years, Like I don't know when this happened,
Speaker 2: but I have not been doing your hair. And she
Speaker 2: does her hair quite nice, so you probably better than
Speaker 2: I do. So yeah, that that one's big because that
Speaker 2: can be time consuming and sometimes not the most quality
Speaker 2: time you're spending with your kid because you're trying to.
Speaker 1: Brush out knots, and not everybody enjoys that. So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Well I have four boys who have chosen to wear
Speaker 1: their hair more on the shorter side. If somebody wanted
Speaker 1: to wear their hair longer, I would be all right
Speaker 1: with that, but you know, they've generally been fine with
Speaker 1: it being on the shorter side, which means there's never
Speaker 1: been any doing the hair. I mean, you know, I
Speaker 1: wash Henry's hair in the bath when he takes one,
Speaker 1: And that's about the extent of my hair involvement.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: Obviously Ruth was at some point a smaller girl with
Speaker 1: longer hair, but I guess I was never really that
Speaker 1: kind of mom. Her hair is pretty fine, as these
Speaker 1: says they say us.
Speaker 2: The hair type thing, because my kid's hair would be
Speaker 2: like in a big snarl, that would like we'd have
Speaker 2: to cut it off their head.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, I mean as long as it was washed fairly
Speaker 1: regularly and then brushed, and then you know, you could
Speaker 1: put it in a ponytail or whatever. I don't have
Speaker 1: the skill to braid things extensively. We've had a few
Speaker 1: you nanny's and babysitters over the years who have much
Speaker 1: better expertise in that area, and they've done some cool
Speaker 1: things with her hair. But that's one thing where I
Speaker 1: could just admire other people's skills. And when she's with me,
Speaker 1: it's in a ponytail. But now she's old enough she
Speaker 1: does her own things. Obviously she's thirteen, she's been doing
Speaker 1: her own hair for years. Love it.
Speaker 2: How about when they can engage in conversation and you're like,
Speaker 2: this is like a fun dinner party, Like I'm actually
Speaker 2: having like a real thoughtful conversation and valuing your interesting perspectives.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, when you could talk to your kids and
Speaker 1: it's not like you're talking to a kid, like you're
Speaker 1: actually having a conversation with a person. Yeah, Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a milestone that kind of sneaks up on you and
Speaker 1: you realize, like, hey, we're hanging out in the kitchen
Speaker 1: having a conversation, like two normal people having like this.
Speaker 1: You know, I was cooking with Ruth the other daily baking.
Speaker 1: I'm sort of like this is almost like, you know,
Speaker 1: if I had a girlfriend here baking something with me.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we're still parent a child, but you're
Speaker 1: just having a fun conversation with each other, enjoying the time.
Speaker 1: And yeah, that can kind of sneak up on you too. Now,
Speaker 1: some children are more introverted than others, so it could
Speaker 1: be harder to engage some people in a conversation than others.
Speaker 1: But you know, if it's a topic they like, and
Speaker 1: so if you do the work to figure that out,
Speaker 1: then you can have a really cool conversation with them too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or they may know a lot more about something
Speaker 2: than you do all of a sudden, and you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: I will learn from this tween or teen, like that's amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome. All right, Well let's take one more
Speaker 1: quick ad break and then we'll be back with some
Speaker 1: more positive parenting milestones. We'll be all right back to
Speaker 1: the kitchen. Yeah, yeah, back to the kitchen, Sarah. What
Speaker 1: else is a milestone for you in the kitchen?
Speaker 2: Yeah, when they can cook and they like it legitimately
Speaker 2: is good. Cameron is like the omelet master in our house. Actually,
Speaker 2: to be honest, he's surpassing. But I think in terms of,
Speaker 2: like she's going to a cooking camp this summer, so
Speaker 2: I don't know, like like.
Speaker 1: You can have them compete this summer. You could be
Speaker 1: the happy beneficiary of that exactly. Yeah. No, I mean
Speaker 1: I have enjoyed, like Ruth will do baking projects and
Speaker 1: things like that. But even just when the kids are
Speaker 1: able to produce their own food when they are hungry
Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to involve you, Now, for some
Speaker 1: children this would lead to only eating crackers. So even
Speaker 1: if they are technically old enough to be producing some
Speaker 1: of their own food, you sort of have to monitor it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, like if you know your teenage boys get
Speaker 1: hungry all the time, there's just like I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's like six meals a day or something, but they
Speaker 1: I don't have to be responsible for most of them.
Speaker 1: You know, if you get hungry, you just scramble yourself eggs,
Speaker 1: or you make yourself mac and cheese, or you start
Speaker 1: the oven and make a pizza. I mean, there's just
Speaker 1: all sorts of things you can do on your own,
Speaker 1: and that milestone is excellent. I still cooking family dinners
Speaker 1: a lot of time, but yeah, other extra meal food
Speaker 1: is not necessarily your concern.
Speaker 2: No, It's true, like on the weekends, I don't necessarily
Speaker 2: know what the bigger kids eat for lunch. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: but genevieb iy do and it takes work and it's fine.
Speaker 2: But like, yeah, interesting to know that that changes, all right?
Speaker 1: Driving double edged sword, Yeah, well that's that's kind of
Speaker 1: a ways beyond all of these just I mean, because
Speaker 1: of the laws on it, and I think in a
Speaker 1: lot of states it's more graduated licensing. So even if
Speaker 1: so in some places people can get their license at sixteen,
Speaker 1: in some other states you can get Like in Pennsylvania,
Speaker 1: you can get a permit at sixteen, and then you
Speaker 1: have to have six months of driving experience before you
Speaker 1: can get your license, So it winds up happening a
Speaker 1: little bit later than it might have elsewhere. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, just having another driver opens up another dimension.
Speaker 1: Often I think of the schedules of many people and
Speaker 1: going lots of places being somewhat like chess here you
Speaker 1: have to like think through the various moves. But when
Speaker 1: you have another driver, it just opens up another angle
Speaker 1: that you can take. And so it's like having a
Speaker 1: kid who can stay home alone, or a kid who
Speaker 1: can stay home with a younger sibling. It just adds
Speaker 1: a level of flexibility that makes the game a lot
Speaker 1: easier to figure out. And so like when Michael and
Speaker 1: I were going out for something on a Friday night
Speaker 1: and we had left Michael and Ruth and no not
Speaker 1: my sorry, Jasper and Ruth and Alex were at home,
Speaker 1: and now Henry was off he has a Friday night sitter,
Speaker 1: but they were off at her place, right, so, and
Speaker 1: Sam was off at something and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: are we going to make it back from this thing
Speaker 1: where we are at at a time, and then I'm like,
Speaker 1: but we don't have to be I could send Jasper
Speaker 1: out to get Sam and Ruth would still be there
Speaker 1: with Alex. It's like I have the babysitter and I
Speaker 1: have the driver and it's all good. Like it's new vistas.
Speaker 1: New vistas have opened up in terms of figuring out
Speaker 1: everyone's schedule. Of course, I mean that the driving can
Speaker 1: go wrong. I mean, knock on woods. I know people
Speaker 1: have had many things happen obviously, you know, scary things.
Speaker 1: They're even just like somebody hitting your mailbox, like let's
Speaker 1: you know, there's many many options that can happen with
Speaker 1: a new drivers. But it is a milestone, and it
Speaker 1: is if you have a well trained and safe driver,
Speaker 1: which hopefully you are encouraging your young drivers to be
Speaker 1: so in working with them to become so it does
Speaker 1: open up some possibilities as a milestone.
Speaker 2: So kind of like on that note, teens in general,
Speaker 2: I can't comment much having no teens officially yet although
Speaker 2: very soon, but you have a bunch, so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love teenagers. I think they're great, and it's
Speaker 1: not just because they're my kids, like I actually really
Speaker 1: kind of like their friends too. I mean you know,
Speaker 1: they're just good kids that have chosen friends well for
Speaker 1: the most part. But I think it's like there are
Speaker 1: a lot of really cool young people out there in
Speaker 1: the world, and it's so exciting to get the see
Speaker 1: them develop their own personalities and figure out their way
Speaker 1: in the world and what they want to do. And
Speaker 1: they're not quite as jaded as older people in Cynical
Speaker 1: and so that's sort of fun. And yeah, they had
Speaker 1: still their lives in front of them, and I really
Speaker 1: enjoy that. And I think this is a key thing
Speaker 1: because a lot of the just You Wait is about
Speaker 1: how teenagers are going to be terrible, and I think
Speaker 1: in some ways I've really lucked out. I also really
Speaker 1: make a point, and this is more conscious of not
Speaker 1: getting upset about little things, and I think that can
Speaker 1: help a lot if you want to enjoy the teenage
Speaker 1: years more like getting upset about dishes. Being in a bedroom,
Speaker 1: for instance, might not be really worth getting upset about.
Speaker 1: Or I'm trying to think of other things. It wouldn't
Speaker 1: be so specific here, but you know, like one bad
Speaker 1: grade is not the end of the world, or if
Speaker 1: somebody if you have booked something wonderful for the child
Speaker 1: and the first phrase out of their mouth is not
Speaker 1: thank you, wonderful mother. I am so appreciative of this.
Speaker 1: It's sort of more of a grunt because they're still
Speaker 1: focused on something else. You don't need to fly off
Speaker 1: the handle about that either. You can just trust that
Speaker 1: in a little bit they'll be more excited about it,
Speaker 1: and you just wait for that. Life with teenagers is great.
Speaker 2: Another major game changer has been the moment when I
Speaker 2: feel like I can leave the kids at home without
Speaker 2: getting a babysitter, even just for like a short like oh,
Speaker 2: I'm dropping one kid off it sports practice, and I
Speaker 2: can leave the other two home. And that's been relatively
Speaker 2: recent for us, and I've been surprised at how life
Speaker 2: changing and freeing it feels. And as someone who has
Speaker 2: a lot of childcare already, I can only imagine it
Speaker 2: being amazing when you don't have someone that you're hiring
Speaker 2: full time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is it's certainly been something for us.
Speaker 1: It probably took me longer to get to this point.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's just because, well, partly,
Speaker 1: Jasper turned sort of babysitting age during COVID, so we
Speaker 1: weren't really going as many places during that time as
Speaker 1: we might have anyway, for like the first two years
Speaker 1: until I was like fourteen, fifteen years old, and then
Speaker 1: I hadn't really and we still had a very little
Speaker 1: kid at that point, and so I'm not sure. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of teenage babysitters did not that big on
Speaker 1: following a toddler everywhere and changing diapers and things like that.
Speaker 1: But once Henry was potty trained, I was like, oh wait,
Speaker 1: I actually have at this point three babysitters in the house,
Speaker 1: and especially if they trade off, it is much more
Speaker 1: feasible for them to do even reasonable stretches of time.
Speaker 1: And we haven't been gone that long with them just
Speaker 1: because of we're still getting our heads around the idea.
Speaker 1: But so I would say the max was like Michael
Speaker 1: and my going out to dinner for a while, and
Speaker 1: then huge, but that was cuge. You know, we'd go
Speaker 1: local in case we needed to get home, but it
Speaker 1: was like a major milestone. And then like this winter,
Speaker 1: We're taking Sam with us to go to one of
Speaker 1: the Eagles games, and I had booked a sitter because
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, well it's gonna be six hours,
Speaker 1: Like that's kind of a long time to ask the
Speaker 1: other kids, so you know, especially it's their weekend like it.
Speaker 1: But then she got sick and I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: what do I do? And so I was like, okay, guys,
Speaker 1: you too, split it. Jasper and Ruth, you guys can
Speaker 1: split it so you could both go do something else
Speaker 1: if you want to during the other three hours, and
Speaker 1: I will pay you like a good going rate for
Speaker 1: a sitter. And so they did it and it was fine,
Speaker 1: Like it was absolutely fine, and you know, I checked
Speaker 1: in with them by phone on occasion, but you know,
Speaker 1: we were able to be gone for that amount of
Speaker 1: time and Henry was fine and he even got dinner.
Speaker 1: They made him dinner, so like, yay, yeah, it worked.
Speaker 1: It worked.
Speaker 2: I mean because they're definitely old enough to babysit other kids.
Speaker 1: We were sitting it totally be higher. I was babysitting
Speaker 1: for all sorts of people and like by seventeen, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's like definitely old enough to do. But
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just like you don't have your
Speaker 1: own mindset of that, and then you realize, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: they are like definitely old enough to be doing this.
Speaker 1: That is awesome.
Speaker 2: How about sleeping in on weekends.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, we don't get to a milestone. You
Speaker 1: should definitely, although we joke about this because I feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of adults, just as your children starts
Speaker 1: sleeping in on the weekend, like you become unable to
Speaker 1: sleep in anymore. Like you are.
Speaker 2: I could sleep in still, like, because I get up
Speaker 2: so early the rest of the time if I want
Speaker 2: to sleep in, And when I say sleep in, I
Speaker 2: mean like eight yeah, But I mean don't don't you
Speaker 2: have to.
Speaker 1: Like go to the bathroom after like seven and a
Speaker 1: half hours?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: I mean I feel like sometimes I would go to
Speaker 2: about them earlier so I could really fall back asleep.
Speaker 2: But I guess what I'm getting at is we're not
Speaker 2: there because Genevieve always wakes up like.
Speaker 1: Well, and a lot of people sort of circadian rhythms
Speaker 1: shift as they become older. That's why we joke about
Speaker 1: like senior citizens having dinner at four thirty because they're up,
Speaker 1: you know, early in the morning, so the day is
Speaker 1: like over by seven pm. But it's true, like your
Speaker 1: circadian rhythms do shift, and so around the time that
Speaker 1: your kids are sleeping in, you develop like you can't
Speaker 1: sleep in anymore, and it's sort of annoying that is,
Speaker 1: I can still sleep till about like eight. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: can make it to eight, and your kids do too.
Speaker 1: That kids do too, So on a weekend morning, if
Speaker 1: we don't have to be anywhere early, which is its
Speaker 1: own thing, like there are all sorts of ridiculous like
Speaker 1: tournaments that start at seven thirty in the morning. But
Speaker 1: if we don't have to be somewhere and I don't
Speaker 1: set an alarm, like I will probably wake up on
Speaker 1: my own and it won't necessarily be a kid that's
Speaker 1: waking me up, Like I will probably be up before
Speaker 1: anyone else in the household, and that's kind of huge,
Speaker 1: or even just during the week, like the fact that
Speaker 1: I'm setting an alarm, like there was definitely a time
Speaker 1: in my life where the alarm was kind of a
Speaker 1: superfluous extra check on the morning to make sure that
Speaker 1: we didn't completely miss school work whatever. But like Alex
Speaker 1: was up at five point forty five in the morning
Speaker 1: for years, and now he is not. He's definitely not
Speaker 1: up five, or if he is, he can go get
Speaker 1: his own iPad and deal with it himself, Like it's
Speaker 1: not my problem.
Speaker 2: This is oh my gosh, in those baby days, Like
Speaker 2: the first day that you get woken up by your
Speaker 2: alarm instead of the baby, that is like so sweet.
Speaker 1: Well, I heard a milestone from somebody who like actually
Speaker 1: missed work, like maybe I were late to work one
Speaker 1: morning because the first time it happened, like they were
Speaker 1: just not prepared for that reality that it could ever happen, right,
Speaker 1: you know that the kids had been waking up for
Speaker 1: so long, and then they're like and probably like, you
Speaker 1: know what worth it? I'm seven thirty train. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: it can happen. It will happen to you at some point,
Speaker 1: so you know, eventually you do need to start setting
Speaker 1: the alarm. But it's pretty sweet, all right.
Speaker 3: Media, Like when kids shows don't stink when they want
Speaker 3: to watch stuff that you actually want to watch, and
Speaker 3: you're not just compromising because you know it'll keep every
Speaker 3: kid happy, but you're actually legit interested in the TV
Speaker 3: show or movie or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you guys all liked Wicked, for instance, right,
Speaker 1: I mean I love that.
Speaker 2: I mean maybe that's a more kid angled one, but
Speaker 2: I mean I legit wanted to see that, and legit
Speaker 2: wanted to see it again, so that's a great example, yeah.
Speaker 1: For us. The upside is that when the kids have
Speaker 1: gotten old enough to watch stuff with Michael that I
Speaker 1: definitely do not want to watch, which is great because
Speaker 1: then he can go to a superhero movie with somebody
Speaker 1: who is not me, and if he wants to watch
Speaker 1: Game of Thrones, which I really did not want to watch.
Speaker 1: I don't like violence and stuff like that anyway. So
Speaker 1: there have been teenage boys watching Game of Thrones with
Speaker 1: him and they can all get into it and it's
Speaker 1: not anything I need to deal with. So that's a
Speaker 1: wonderful parenting milestone too, totally.
Speaker 2: And for the record, I have not watched Game of
Speaker 2: Thrones either. Oh no, okay. I have one last one
Speaker 2: that I'm adding on, which is that you get to
Speaker 2: a point when your kid will be like, I'm sick
Speaker 2: on a school day and you're like, okay, because they
Speaker 2: can stay home either by themselves or with you. And
Speaker 2: that's spawned by the fact that Cameron is right now
Speaker 2: homesick and I am sad that he's coughing, and I
Speaker 2: feel bad, but I'm able to do the things I
Speaker 2: need to do, versus back in the day i'd have
Speaker 2: to call in more childcare. I mean, our nanny would come,
Speaker 2: but like I didn't even have to bother her.
Speaker 1: It's like we're fine. Yeah, yeah, when older kids can
Speaker 1: stay home, and I mean if they're not like a
Speaker 1: death store. I mean, obviously, if somebody is like very
Speaker 1: very ill, you probably want to be checking on them.
Speaker 1: But yes, a cough or you know, sleeping off, tummy
Speaker 1: troubles the day before is something that an older kid
Speaker 1: can kind of deal with. On another OWD, and with that,
Speaker 1: I would point out that there comes a point where
Speaker 1: a child recognizes that they are about to be sick.
Speaker 1: And that is a beautiful moment too. As we talk
Speaker 1: about the wonder of winter and the winter germs and
Speaker 1: the Nora virus thing that goes through your whole household,
Speaker 1: some children are able to recognize that's about to happen,
Speaker 1: get themselves to a bathroom, and there's a lot less mess,
Speaker 1: and that is wonderful.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely one of the best milestones there.
Speaker 1: Are those best milestones there possibly could be with parenting.
Speaker 1: All right, So on that note, Sarah, moving on, we
Speaker 1: can go ahead and get to our question for the week.
Speaker 1: Do you want to read this? Do you want me to? Sure?
Speaker 2: So this person, I'll summarize, right, they were listening to
Speaker 2: our airtight task management episode. I wanted to know when
Speaker 2: we get our personal and family task done, Like if
Speaker 2: you had a task that might take a bunch of
Speaker 2: hours to complete, is this and after kids are in
Speaker 2: bed on weekends kind of situation. This person's just kind
Speaker 2: of wondering where to fit that in.
Speaker 1: So Laura, yeah, well, this is definitely a problem for
Speaker 1: It's a different answer if you have sort of flexible
Speaker 1: job versus if you don't have a very flexible job.
Speaker 1: And so I can tell you what I do, which
Speaker 1: is I just put the bigger tasks on my priority
Speaker 1: list for the and I just assigned them a time. So,
Speaker 1: since I work for myself and it is often easier
Speaker 1: to do these things when you are sitting at your
Speaker 1: desk with your laptop, with your planner, with your phone,
Speaker 1: I will probably do them during my work hours. I
Speaker 1: try to choose time that's not my peak focused creativity time.
Speaker 1: Like when I had to send invitations to a kid's
Speaker 1: birthday party and I had to look up a lot
Speaker 1: of email addresses to get them on the paperless post invite.
Speaker 1: I did that at like three thirty pm on an afternoon, right, like,
Speaker 1: that was something I carved out time to do that for.
Speaker 1: Then I keep a running punch list and I try
Speaker 1: to get through those sometimes on Friday. Lately, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure what's been happening. My Fridays have been had stuff
Speaker 1: and they've been shorter than they should be, So I
Speaker 1: don't know what's happening with that, but I will do
Speaker 1: at some other point. I have my running punch list,
Speaker 1: or even make myself a weekend to do list and
Speaker 1: say there's you know, I'm going to do an hour
Speaker 1: of work on this. If you have a less flexible job,
Speaker 1: obviously you cannot just you know, be like I'm going
Speaker 1: to stop seeing patients at three thirty and do my
Speaker 1: personal punch list, or I'm going to stop driving this
Speaker 1: bus at four o'clock and do my personal punch list. Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously there's many things that this is not going to work.
Speaker 1: But I think it's important to recognize that it is
Speaker 1: work and it does take time. So you do need
Speaker 1: to build some time into your life so as you're
Speaker 1: planning your week, you can kind of triosh keep a
Speaker 1: running list and triosh what has to happen during business
Speaker 1: hours and what does not. If there's something that doesn't
Speaker 1: have to happen during business hours, you might try carving
Speaker 1: out like thirty forty five minutes two evenings a week
Speaker 1: or on the weekend when you're trading off with your
Speaker 1: partner or whatever, that you do it. Then if it
Speaker 1: does need to be during business hours, either dedicate a
Speaker 1: lunch to it, or if your business hours don't entirely
Speaker 1: overlap with like eight to five, Like maybe you start
Speaker 1: work at nine, maybe you could do eight to nine
Speaker 1: one morning a week where you get through some of
Speaker 1: that stuff. Or if you work eight to four but
Speaker 1: you can pick up your kids as late as five
Speaker 1: thirty at daycare, maybe you carve out one day a
Speaker 1: week where you do it from four to five thirty.
Speaker 1: And you can't necessarily do it on your employer's equipment, right,
Speaker 1: Like I'm not saying you have to do it on
Speaker 1: your work computer, but like go somewhere, like go to
Speaker 1: a coffee shop with your phone and your planner and
Speaker 1: make it happen. That's what you can do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I my schedule is definitely less flexible,
Speaker 2: even on my flexible days, I think because I don't
Speaker 2: have very many flexible days. My flexible days become really
Speaker 2: unflexible really fast, because I booked.
Speaker 1: Every interview and every thing and I can't move it.
Speaker 2: I do a lot of opportunists, and I feel like
Speaker 2: the more urgent the thing is, the more I will
Speaker 2: find a pocket time to get it done in. Sometimes
Speaker 2: that's a weekend, like a weekend afternoon. It doesn't mean
Speaker 2: we're only doing drudgery. There's still time to do fun
Speaker 2: stuff and also get some work done. Sometimes it's lunchtime
Speaker 2: at work. Sometimes a patient will know show. So there
Speaker 2: are probably equivalents to that, and whatever your industry is,
Speaker 2: where you just have a pocket of time. Someone cancels
Speaker 2: a meeting and you know what, if you work on
Speaker 2: that home thing for thirty minutes, probably you know it
Speaker 2: wouldn't impact anything. And we know from our Patreon group
Speaker 2: that many full time, very corporate working women spend some
Speaker 2: of that work time.
Speaker 1: I'm doing these personal things, so sometimes that will work.
Speaker 1: Your mileage maybury.
Speaker 2: And then also other pockets are like, oh, you're picking
Speaker 2: up a kid at seven from dance, but you have
Speaker 2: to drive across town and you don't want to go
Speaker 2: home first. You're gonna be stuck in the car, so
Speaker 2: like what can you get done? So looking for those
Speaker 2: windows of opportunity and always kind of knowing what is
Speaker 2: the most urgent so you can triage effectively.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Sarah Love of the Week, What is
Speaker 1: your love this week?
Speaker 2: Well, this one is inspired by the topic, which is
Speaker 2: that I love it when you're well.
Speaker 1: We had a great playground birthday party.
Speaker 2: Not we we didn't throw it, but we attended one
Speaker 2: where a I knew all the parents because the kids
Speaker 2: have been together for years and be the kids are
Speaker 2: all old enough that we could just let them entertain
Speaker 2: themselves and they did and it was just.
Speaker 1: Like super relaxing. Yeah, no, that's great. There's certain things
Speaker 1: that make teen independence easier than others. Obviously, it's harder
Speaker 1: if you're not in a walkable area because then they
Speaker 1: have to drive in order to get around. So you
Speaker 1: still providing rides places until they're sixteen and a half
Speaker 1: or something, and so that sort of postpones things a
Speaker 1: little bit. But one thing I have found makes it
Speaker 1: convenient for kids to go places on their own if
Speaker 1: they need to pay for stuff is Apple Pay like
Speaker 1: on their phones, just that you can put a credit
Speaker 1: card on their phone. If they need it for something,
Speaker 1: they can use it. And maybe there are things you
Speaker 1: agree that they pay you back for, but they have
Speaker 1: access to a payment tool at a time that they
Speaker 1: might need it, So then you're not constantly asking do
Speaker 1: you have cash on you? Like where kids don't like
Speaker 1: to carry wallets or purses. I don't know what it
Speaker 1: is kids these days, but so they don't have like
Speaker 1: where are you putting your money? Like where would you
Speaker 1: put your drivers? I said, I don't know anyway, But
Speaker 1: that said, they at least have a way to pay
Speaker 1: without a credit card falling out of their pocket or
Speaker 1: cash falling out of their coat pocket or getting left
Speaker 1: in the car wherever. So yeah, it's a benefit of it.
Speaker 1: Love it all right? Well, this has been best of
Speaker 1: both worlds. We are talking positive parenting milestones because just
Speaker 1: you wait, it's gonna be great. We will be back
Speaker 1: next week with more on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
Speaker 2: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
Speaker 2: and you.
Speaker 1: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
Speaker 1: has been the best of both worlds. Podcasts. Please join
Speaker 1: us next time for more on making work and life
Speaker 1: work together.