WEBVTT - The extremists behind the Capitol riot 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.080 The amount of people who were willing to come to 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:04.480 d C, to fly into DC, to come out to 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.320 engage in violent action. That was a small number when 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:09.399 we look at the entire country, but it's a mass 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:11.600 number of people, and we've got tens of thousands of 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:13.720 people around the country doing it. When you go on 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.759 these chat rooms and stuff, you're seeing people say things 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:19.000 like I'm willing to die for this. I'm willing to 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:21.880 kill for this. They're talking about bringing weapons places, they're 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:26.319 talking about modifying weapons. That's something about Donald Trump's just 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.200 whipping them up into a frenzy that's been able to 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:31.720 really be an organizing agent. That's what's so scary about 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.520 him personally. We're talking about a level of violence that's 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.879 being committed to here that we haven't seen from a 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:43.920 mass public like this before. With just days left in 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:47.720 a presidential term that has been defined by chaos, bluster, 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:51.640 and disregard to the American people. I watched in horror, 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:54.840 as did the rest of the country, as enraged Trump 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:58.640 supporters reached the US capital in an attempt to demonstrate 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:03.680 their capacity for violence. Rioters broke windows, they ransacked offices, 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:07.280 Confederate and pro Trump flags were carried throughout the building. 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:10.360 There was an armed standoff in the house chamber, and 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:13.759 when all was said and done, a woman was fatally shot. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:17.959 Four others died, multiple injured. And just think about the 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:22.200 fact that a US Capitol Police officer died due to 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:25.520 injuries he was beaten over the head with a fire 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:29.600 extinguisher is not something any of us imagined we would 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.080 ever see in our lifetime. If we need any sort 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:38.680 of confirmation that right wing radicalization is threatening our democracy, 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:42.960 we got that confirmation on that day. I'm Stephanie Rule, 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:47.400 MSNBC Anchor, NBC News Senior correspondent, and this is Modern Rules, 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:56.720 a podcast from NBC Think and I Heart Radio. On 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:59.040 this podcast, our goal is to get straight to the 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.840 point because in he's really complicated times, there's a lot 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:05.520 we need to understand and the only way we can 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:08.880 move forward is to get smarter on these things. On 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.200 this episode of Modern Rules, we're asking a pretty simple question, 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.799 how did this mob form? And should we have seen 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:20.840 it coming? My guest today says absolutely yes. Shane Burley 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:23.680 is a journalist and a filmmaker. He's reported on and 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:27.079 studied extremism in the United States for several years. He's 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.920 also the author of Fascism Today, What is it and 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:35.400 how to end it? Shane, I am so lucky you 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.639 are here today. So let's please start with this rally. 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.480 Where do these people come from? Who are they? These 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.280 are not just formal organizations. This is not just the 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.040 organs of the GOP, for example. It's not just like 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.920 far right organizations of the past. It's a diverse social 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.640 movement that's coming across all around the country based on 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.560 this weird allegiance. They have to Trump as an individual, 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.000 but what they're doing is coalescing around this almost messianic 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:02.560 figure of Donald from someone who promises so much, is 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:06.119 expecting to deliver things far beyond what a politician delivered. 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.400 He's promising to change their lives as individuals, and so 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:11.640 the promise that Donald Trump has built with these people 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.000 goes far beyond what he can do in the government, 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.840 which is why there's no reason to believe that they're 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:20.560 disappearing when Trump leaves office. That rally turned into this 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:24.000 mob of people storming the US capital, one of the 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:29.240 most sacred and important and theoretically secure buildings in our country. 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.960 This mob of people wearing Nazi t shirts and horns 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:38.000 and homemade for pelts. They basically shoved themselves into the building, 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:42.280 sent all of Congress and our Vice President into hiding, 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:45.560 and they vandalized the building. Who is this mob made 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:50.560 up of young old? Obviously movement in general exkews older, 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.480 but there is a large number of young people that 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.640 are sort of of a few intersecting constituencies. On the 0:03:57.680 --> 0:03:59.520 one hand, you have a lot of rural folks who 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.600 are facing the kind of economic effects of what Rule 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.080 America is going through right now. Um, you're seeing a 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:08.000 lot of organizations that have sprouted up in the Trump years, 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:12.360 Proud Boys, militia organizations, and quote unquote patriot organizations that 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.480 have gotten much much bigger. The reality is that that 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.000 they're far right. Coalition is broad enough that it includes 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.159 a strong new age culture. This is not what we 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.200 normally associate with Republican Party. But there is a sort 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:28.400 of crossover in the world of alternative medicine, crystal healing, 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:30.919 things like that with Q and on, because there's a 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:34.240 common kind of conspiracy worldview. So it's not actually uncommon 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:36.080 to go on these far right websites and see kins 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:40.160 of alternative healing stuff. Acupuncture, chiropractic, all kinds of stuff. 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:43.840 It's a large collection of people whose real only association 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.440 is a belief in Donald Trump and a belief that 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.560 some kind of revolutionary answer needs to happen. And they're 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.920 also bound together by deep nativists for beliefs. There's a 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.800 profound sense of mythology that drives them together, a sense 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.400 of heroism, a sense that they are the main character 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:01.680 of this story, right um. And I think that is 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.400 also part of the mentality that gets people to break 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.320 through those barricades, to attack one of the most heavily 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.560 fortified buildings in the country, and to try and disrupt 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.320 an electric certification. But when you look at the images 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.640 of the capital, it is very upsetting to see people 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.159 defacing that property. I have now looked at these photos, 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:24.760 these videos for hours and hours. Can you please explain 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:30.880 the aesthetic to me? The fur pelts, the horns. I 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.800 think somebody referred to it as hill billy burning man 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:38.200 meets Jamiroquois, Like I don't even understand, Like, how do 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.360 you think I'm gonna put this get up on with 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:42.440 no shirt and paint my face and put horns on 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:44.159 to go to a rally. I mean in the same 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:46.080 way that you think that storm in the capitol somehow 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:48.280 stops an election. I mean, this isn't people that are 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:50.480 based on like real political conscious which I think people 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.919 have been calling him the que shaman, the q and 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:58.360 he's covered in Nordic pagan tattoos. They are generally commonly 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.280 associated with far right movements that have take and up 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:03.520 Nordic pagan imagery and that's sort of a call back 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.600 to some kind of Northern European racial nationalisms. The rhetoric 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.760 has increased so dramatically in the last year and most 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:13.000 specifically in the last two months, all motivated by the 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.680 belief that something profound is taking place in the country, 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.600 like all of people are taking democracy away from them um, 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.760 that their kind of action has become openly revolutionary. They 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:26.640 see the utility and speaking a common nativist grievance based 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.640 anger um, and so that is useful to them. That 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.080 gets people out into the streets, and when it comes 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:35.040 to where they go now it's going to shift from 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:37.520 the electoral realm to the street um. And we're starting 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.520 to see that in the post election period. For the 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.080 primary function of these groups and these rallies is essentially 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:47.480 to show violent force. So, as someone who tracks this 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:52.280 closely and follows the chat rooms and their pages and 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:56.599 their extreme groups, when this happened on Wednesday, were you surprised? Oh? No, 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.240 absolutely not. There is no reason to be surprised. I 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:01.680 have been to since and dozens of these rallies over 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.280 the years. UM, I've seen reporters and activists attacked with 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:10.120 real serious immunity, like seeing Trump called them out, seeing 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.920 the mass response, seeing the chatter on places like telegram 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.440 and parlor and other social media platforms. We should have 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.800 known this was going to happen. Those people who participated 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:24.280 on Wednesday, they shut down the Capitol Building, They messed 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.120 up Nancy Pelosi's office. Her office has been cleaned up 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.320 since then. And on that very same day, Joe Biden 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.720 was certified. Do they consider Wednesday a win? Some do, 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:36.880 because their goal was never getting something done. Their goal 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:40.040 was showing power. Their goal was their ability to actually 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.160 affect space. They can take over a government building, they 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:45.600 can actually push things back, they can disrupt the entire 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.320 organs of the federal government. They were able to shut 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.480 down the Capitol Building. I can't say a lot of 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.760 movements have done that in any recent years. That's a 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.000 big deal. Is the common thread in all these groups. 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.360 Trump I interviewed an expert on Colts, Sarah high Power, 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:03.560 and explain that people are basically traumatizing themselves with untruth 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.560 They're basically pumping themselves full of these stories that are 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.880 incredibly traumatic if they were true, Believing them and having 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.240 it moved them emotionally along this ladder. And so what's 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:16.400 happening is all these kind of untruths are compounding on 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:19.120 people and creating this deep sense of motivation. How do 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.080 they organize Wednesday, for example, or any one of these events? 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:25.520 How does it work? I mean it might not be 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.280 super sophisticated, but they all showed up, you know, in 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:30.640 a way it is sophisticated a way. It actually speaks 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.400 to how people organize themselves in the twenty one century 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:36.440 through a kind of horizontal social movement with older folks. 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.040 It's oftentimes the Facebook groups with the more militant folks. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.920 It's some of these new social media sites like or Telegram. 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:44.280 But basically there there would be a few people who 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.559 are a little bit more organized calling together a rally. 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:49.400 Everyone in these these groups that are very active that 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:51.520 they are able to see it, and then they kind 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.120 of do it through the horizontal networks of calling people, 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:57.160 setting up car pools, and doing researchers. This will sit 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:58.840 on a lot of these Facebook groups and see how 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.840 they come together, and sometimes very large rallies will come 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:04.200 together in a matter of days simply by someone saying, Hey, 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.720 we should go out there and quote unquote stop Antifa 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.240 or we're going to go stop these Black Lives Matter people, 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:11.280 and then they will come out really quickly. And there's 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.080 also these kind of militia or patriot focus forums where 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.599 people are very explicive about what their intentions are with 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:18.920 their plan violence, and they do it very very quickly 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.080 in the way that's kind of impressive. It speaks to 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.800 the way that social media can create spontaneous groupings of 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.640 people very quickly. How reliant are they and how empowering 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:32.480 are these social media platforms. Yeah, I mean they're absolutely central. 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.360 You can't do it without it. Facebook and Twitter have 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.920 been especially hesitant to act for years um and now 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:41.480 I don't think they can put the genie back in 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.880 the bottle. The autonomous nature of social media, it's very 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:50.000 very hard to identify ones that are problematic, particularly Facebook groups, 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:53.760 which is really important for older demographics. People like my 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:58.400 mother or my sister. I have experienced them falling for 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:02.719 conspiracy theories that end up in their feed sort of 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.960 masked as you know, what starts as information for moms 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.559 ends up something way more twisted and dark. And if 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.360 those things were not allowed on Facebook, they actually would 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:17.000 never ever see them. The reality is that propagating profound 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:21.160 falsehoods that victimize certain populations, that's dangerous no matter who's 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.360 doing it. The willingness to allow Donald Trump to say 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.560 what he wants because he's the president, those sorts of 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:27.319 things need to end, and they need to be able 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.200 to make those tade those standards across the platforms period. 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.360 The reason people use Facebook and Twitter is because other 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.760 people use Facebook and Twitter, and so I actually think 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.840 that if Facebook and Twitter, Instagram and the other major 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:43.280 social media channels maintain a certain level of standards about 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:45.600 these things, they actually will have an effect for the 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:51.160 masterminds behind these untruths who then create this. It would 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:52.600 be a lot easier if you could say someone is 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.280 actually lying to these people. They're making up a conspiracy 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.120 theory and telling it. But It's unfortunately more complicated that 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.960 because the reality is that people believe these The reality 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:03.960 is that that one person learns that from another person 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.720 escalates it through a game of telephone. That's happening across 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.320 millions of people. There is no central place here. Conspiracy 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.360 thinking has become so out of control that there is 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.160 no way to kind of rein it in on the 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.800 right anymore. I can tell you. After Wednesday went down, 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:22.680 you saw all sorts of Republican voters like my parents, 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.120 humiliated by it. When my parents saw that was the 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.600 first time they finally said enough is enough. Yeah, there's 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:30.040 a lot of people that are kind of turning on Trump. 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.920 Enough enough, but also over Republicans think that there was 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:36.760 some kind of funny business in election with zero evidence, 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:39.120 which is the entire core of this narrative. So that's 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.320 a mass. We're talking about tens of millions of people 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.440 that are in agreement about a conspiracy narrative propagated by 0:11:44.480 --> 0:12:00.719 Donald Trump. We'll be back after the break. Let's think 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.520 of other protests that we see. I usually have a 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.600 better idea of what they're protesting for. I know what 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.280 women's marches are for. I know what marches for science 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.840 are for. I know what pro life marches are for. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.439 I looked at a crowd of people, many of whom 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:21.600 were wearing Camp Auschwitz T shirts and Nazi garb, cheering 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:27.200 on Ivanka Trump, who is Jewish. So what exactly is 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.280 binding these people together and following trumpic That's what I 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:35.280 don't understand. They're they're protesting for, Yeah, to set things 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.959 on fire, that's what they're protesting for. This is something 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:42.960 that I think the GOP hasn't had a real connection 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:44.839 to in the last several years, which is what does 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.760 a militant revolutionary movement look like? Well, it's not going 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.600 to look like policy reform, and within that to have 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.480 a movement that large with being revolutionary, they're not all 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:55.840 actually going to agree on what that new future world 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.440 looks like. And so instead, what there is in Trump 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:00.880 is a tacit coalition of people who want to set 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:02.719 fire to things, who want to burn it all down, 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.040 and who want to attack the status quo. What this 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.080 does is actually create a pressure valve. And so the 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.160 power that Trump has now, the power of these people 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.920 have now is in physical space. They can take things over, 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:15.719 They can foll violent pressure if they want they can 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.400 create large mobs as they did in DC. So I 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:20.520 think it's debatable whether or not that's going to have 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:22.640 an effect on policy in the next few years. But 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.400 he is going to basically have the ability to hold 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.120 down people in communities with a real threat of violence 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.760 by mobilizing this huge army, And in a lot of ways, 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:32.599 that actually is what what it has in common with 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:36.720 revolutionary movements historically does the number of right wing extremists? 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:41.280 Is the real number smaller than the perceived number? Because 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.680 of social media, because of the president, it sort of 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:50.320 gets amplified and amplified, especially because the beliefs are so crazy, 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.040 they're very, very popular to talk about. But when you 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.679 get down to it, Republicans lost in the mid terms 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.920 in two thousand eighteen, the president lost the election. In 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.320 two thousand twenty, Republicans lost control of the Senate. So 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:06.000 is this Trump faction actually that big? You know? Historically, 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.120 if we're talking about neo Nazis and they all right, 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:11.640 it actually is pretty small. It's bigger than it has 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.400 been in decades, but it's still pretty small. But what 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.200 we've seen happen is where certain ways of thinking that 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.760 would have been only on the extreme right have now 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:24.280 moved their way into GOP mainstays, and so we're having 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:29.280 a mass radicalization event because the ideas that are motivating 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.160 the Trump base right now are so out there that 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.720 they would have been on the fringes of the internet before. 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.080 And so I think in that way, extremism has become 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.440 a mass phenomenon and the conservative movement, and it's going 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.080 to drive an even bigger swath of the public as 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.040 they confront social issues from a conspiracy mindset rather than 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.440 a fact based one. Talk to us about Portland. What 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.960 have you seen, especially over the last few months as 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:59.400 you've watched tensions there rise. Is that city sort of 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:01.760 the canary in the coal mine for the rest of 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.560 us for what's to come. I think that's a good 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.160 way of phrasing it. So the dynamic of Portland's is 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.280 important because it's considered a deep liberal city that has 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.440 a long history of racist violence around the center of 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.560 the k K and the twenties, a really serious problem 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:17.880 with neo Nazi skin hits in the eighties and nineties. 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.680 Organ itself has a racist history of being sort of 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:24.960 an intended white ethno state um having a divide between 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.160 the rural areas and the urban areas and has a 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.440 deep problem with things like gentrification and racial politics in 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.840 the city. Any time you're having this sort of blue 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.520 oasis inside of a red kind of container, like we 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:40.920 have an organ you're seeing people kind of surround from 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:45.200 the outside communities and so this seeing far right groups 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.080 in that area is not uncommon, but the clashes have 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.440 only escalated over the several years. So groups like Patriot Prayer, 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.680 which is another far right organization based generally out here, 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:57.720 and the probably have been coming to Portland once a month, 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.320 once over two months for these violent classes for last 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.480 several years. And so we're seeing literally blood flowing in 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.680 the streets, people being very seriously hurt, hospitalized, some people 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:08.520 end up killed. And this is being going on for 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.320 quite a long time. The entire function of which these 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.960 groups coming out is to sort of declare their autonomy. 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:18.400 So they're bound together by grievance and a leader who's 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:23.160 amplifying their grievances. But where do they go from here? 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:28.000 These people just basically shoved their way in. In general, 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:34.560 is law enforcement underestimating the will or the capabilities? Absolutely, 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.680 this is true in Portland, but it's really true in 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.120 places around the country. Leftinly counter downstairs are always more numerous, 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.440 usually because we're talking about nonprofits and unions and other groups. 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.280 The part of them. The police take an incredibly light 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:48.840 hand with the far right protesters and an incredibly heavy 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:51.400 hand with the left wing protesters. Um. And this is 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.800 a pattern that has repeated itself. There's a number things 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.120 that that the lie that that the police generally see 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.840 the far right protesters as less radical, that there's a 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.760 historic connection between police and far right movements, both locally 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.679 and around the country. Then let's talk about that willful ignorance. 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:10.080 Because there were lots of videos from people from the 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:12.679 riots who said, oh, the police were cool to me, 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.520 and you know, they directed me to Chuck Schumer's office, 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:18.080 or they walked me out. I mean they walked out 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:20.520 like they were, you know, going on a tour of 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.600 the Capitol. When you actually looked at those police officers, 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:28.199 they were not equipped to handle this mob. There's tons 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.200 we could have done, and we chose not to. Why 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.600 is that there has been generally this belief that these 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.159 right wing groups are just normal Americans trying to I 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.440 don't protect the country. Um And, so I think what 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.160 we see in DC is just the belief that these 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.360 are Trump supporters. They're just conservatives. They're here sharing their 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.520 voice like anyone does, and doesn't see the potential for violence. 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.159 And because of that, they have been given allowances that 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.160 left wing groups never would or groups led by community 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.359 of color never would. Part of it, I think it's 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.240 the structural racism and law enforcement where community of color 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.120 are seen as more threatening when they're in mass groups 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:09.160 protesting than largely white movements are. And to not say 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:11.360 the potential for violence when we're able to see armed 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.920 rallies happening around the country is willful ignorance. The fact 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.000 the law enforcement hasn't taken these groups seriously is leading 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.440 us to a situation when they were able to grow 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.120 without any pushback and now are at a position when 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:26.359 it would be actually hard to reverse time on this. 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:31.719 There are now Q and On members or sympathizers actually 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.480 in Congress. Based on your reporting and what you study, 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:38.240 do you see this as something that's going to be growing. 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.840 Q and On believes that they are freedom fighters, that 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.520 the entire model of Q and ON is to take 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.440 a bizarre story and put you right at the center 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:49.800 of it. This world would fall apart if it wasn't 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.119 for you intervening on it. There is a narrative history 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.760 that requires messiahs to come in and change things as 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.159 a day a sex machina, and that's the entire function 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.480 of Q and on. So, of course they're not streamists. 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.000 The extremists or the pedophile cabal that are taking over 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.520 the comment those are the real extremists. You're just a 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.280 regular American. But what happens right when they say, you know, 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.320 the day is coming on April one? What happens when 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.720 these days, these times passed and none of the things 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.000 they predict come to fruition? The same thing when the 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.679 apocalypse never came after the preacher predicted it, you know 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:24.679 it's you. You look back and say, oh, you know, 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:27.240 it's because of this reason. It was because actually he's 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.399 doing a longer game. There's all kinds of ways to 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:33.680 explaining it. The failure of a prophecy has never stopped 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:37.920 the most pious from continuing their work. Other countries watched 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.879 what happened at the Capitol in horror. But extremism is 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.760 not unique to the United States. What is it like 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.040 around the world. Yeah, this is not just happening in 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:48.879 the US, This is happening with the a f D 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:51.840 in Germany, this is happening with you, Kip. This is 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:55.159 a serious ideological change or response to the crisis that 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:57.520 we're entering in the twenty one century. And so there 0:19:57.680 --> 0:19:59.960 is a lot of ideology that's driving this, and then 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:01.720 there's also a lot of grifters that will help to 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.720 take the ideology and shoot it through the stratosy. So 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.840 what happens when they don't have a sponsor in the 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.280 White House. Anytime you see these far right movements escalate, 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:13.639 they have a point when they start to contract, either 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.720 from their own failures, and at that point, when they 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.800 see that their movement has been unsuccessful in meeting at goals, 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.679 that's when you start to see seemingly impulsive active violence. 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:25.600 And it's a positive thing when their movements shrink. But 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.320 there's also a flip side to that, which is that 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:30.600 these are the point in which you start to see 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.879 desperate acts. And that's what actually worries me about. We 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:35.919 have every reason to be hopeful, though, I mean, we 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.800 saw much larger protests against police finance, we saw larger 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:43.160 social movements of young people coming out. We have all 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:45.560 the tools, they are all here, we just have to 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.520 do them. And so knowing that as that's what keeps 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.359 me hopeful through dark times like watching the Capital be 0:20:51.400 --> 0:21:04.439 overrun by the far right. I have to admit I 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:07.080 was surprised that Shane ended on a hopeful note. The 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:10.560 demonstration of violence that we saw at the Capitol is 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:15.600 a reminder that the disastrous elements of Trump's presidency will 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.440 likely have very destructive consequences. On this podcast, we want 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:21.920 to leave you with some time to think. Something Shane 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.840 left me thinking about is this, Maybe we do have 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:28.440 a reason to be hopeful. No doubt the president has 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:32.360 pushed the boundaries of many of our most precious institutions 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:36.600