WEBVTT - The Hidden Horrors of Elephant Shows 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.680 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:09.080 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.119 learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:13.880 production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.080 Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Noah. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.800 Our colleague Matt is Audit Ventures, but will be returning soon. 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.280 They pulled me, Ben. We're joined Asultwoods with our super 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:41.000 producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you. 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.680 You are here that makes this the stuff they don't 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:48.519 want you to know. And Noel, you and Tennessee and 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.159 I are going to do a little bit something a 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:56.040 little bit different today. We are going to talk about elephants. Now, 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:58.360 my friend, when's the last time you saw an elephant 0:00:58.400 --> 0:00:58.840 in person? 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:01.880 Well, the elephant in the room, Ben, is that I 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.319 have not seen an elephant in person in many, many years. 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:06.600 I seem to recall. 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:09.479 Okay, they do have elephants here at the Atlanta Zoo, 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.560 and a zoo's can be a little bit ethically fraught. 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.000 I do believe the Atlanta Zoo is one of the 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.880 better ones, and that most of the animals there would 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.360 not make it in the wild because they've either been 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.840 injured or some issue has led to them, you know, 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:25.960 existing in captivity and that kind of being the best 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.680 thing for them. I do remember when I was a kid, though, 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.360 growing up, there was a park of some kind in 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:36.200 Germany where you could get elephant rides, and that seems 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:38.840 problematic now thinking back on it and knowing what we're 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:39.920 going to talk about today. 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:43.880 Yeah, what about you, Tennessee, how familiar are you with 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:44.560 the elephant? 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.680 I've probably seen elephants at like three different zoos, but 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:51.840 only at Zoo's never you know, had the privilege of 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.880 traveling to see elephants in Africa and he or somewhere 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:55.200 like that. 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:58.800 Right, Yeah, that makes sense. Those can be difficult places 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.160 for a lot of us in the States to get to, 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.840 right and you know, quiet, part out loud in your 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:10.040 regular garden variety, huge American town or city, you're going 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.440 to see a lot of things, but you're probably not 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.480 going to see just a rando elephant, you know, waiting 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.680 in line at Goldberg's Deli or sorry. 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:19.880 Just roam in the streets like here in Atlanta occasionally 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.079 see I believe it's like a horse farm not too 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.760 far from the city, so you will occasionally see urban 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:29.720 cowboys or riding their steeds around, but not so with elephants. 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:32.680 I do think we've both been fascinated about the history 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:37.200 of like war elephants and some of the misreporting around 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:41.120 what that even looked like, or like war rhinoceroses as 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:42.000 another example. 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.360 Right, absolutely, and stay tuned, folks for an upcoming episode 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:51.200 of Ridiculous History, where our returning guest Lorn Vogelbaum, will 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:55.200 help us explore the story of mammoths and mastodons in 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.639 these United States once upon a time. And I love 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.720 the point we're making here about elephants at the top. 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:06.440 They can be genuine gentle giants in some cases, as 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:08.800 we'll see tonight, they can also be very similar to 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:15.959 wait for it, serial killers. Elephants have increasingly forced humanity 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:18.960 to rethink what it means to be sapients, to be 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.880 aware and for a lot of us, for Noel and 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.480 Tennessee and yours, truly, elephants are something you only see 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.400 in zoos or Once upon a Time and circuses. But 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.519 tonight we're looking at an ongoing case of true crime 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:35.960 and something that doesn't often get reported because the victims 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:45.200 are not human. This is the hidden horror of elephant shows. 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.600 Here are the facts. Okay, this is going to be 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:51.680 a bit of a dark on folks, as you just 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.240 said there, Noel, So let's seize into it by talking 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:59.600 a little bit about these noble, humble creatures, these elephants, 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:04.240 and why we all unanimously agree that they are amazing 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:05.040 for sure. 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:09.160 I mean, they're just so majestic and regal, you know, 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.400 I mean it's like you just need to take a 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.480 look at them to realize how incredible they are. And 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.000 to your point, Bent, they are just so incredibly gentle. 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:24.360 African bush elephants as their known Luxodonta africana. We've also 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:29.000 got the African forest elephants L. Psyclotis and the Asian 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:31.880 elephant or Alphas maximus. 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:32.440 Three. 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:34.800 Yes, indeed, right, they're the ones that probably should be 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.400 fitted up with like mad Max armor and out there, 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:38.560 you know, doing war. 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.800 But no, definitely not. These are the three. 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:45.599 Extant species of elephants that are recognized today. In previous 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:50.719 evenings throughout history, these fellas had cousins, including, but not 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:54.800 limited to the mastodon the great wooly mammoth, both of 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:59.279 course sadly extinct for now right, right, But we just 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:03.400 had lots of crazy stuff going on labs. 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.640 Right, we're actually uh full disclosure, folks. H Dule Tennessee 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:10.240 and I are coming off the heels of a phenomenal 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:14.080 interview with our friend Mangesh had a Quatre who is 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:18.560 exploring the science of cloning and longevity in his show 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:22.560 Skyline Drive. And I can't stop thinking about it, man, 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:28.760 how close humanity is to potentially recreating the mammoth. In particular, 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:31.680 what do we do you know when the mammoths are back? 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.560 Yeah, it does become an interesting question because it does 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:38.359 feel a little Jurassic parkified, right, Like, what is the 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:40.279 function of bringing back the mammoth? 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.480 Is there a place in the world for them other. 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.400 Than like, you know, entertainments, right, Like, and I don't 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.400 mean that in any dismissive way of these incredible creatures, 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:51.159 but like, where. 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:55.919 Would they Where would we put them? Yeah? Exactly? Yeah? Yeah? 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:57.120 Where could they go? 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:03.719 Because all species of l elephants are bigger than you think, 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.440 kind of like meeting a moose in person. If you've 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.360 never seen an elephant up close in person, you will 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:14.720 be astonished by their size. These are chonky chonky guys. 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.480 The African bush elephant is the largest they Their height 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.080 can go somewhere between ten and eleven feet. At their 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:26.400 upper limit, they can weigh in at seven tons. And remember, 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.920 we had these conversations a few years back, weirdly serious 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:36.080 conversations about whether we can successfully go toe to toe 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:37.560 one on one with a kangaroo. 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:39.400 PvP, right, PvP. 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:44.560 Yeah, But I think you and I have concluded that 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.440 if you are a human being, you have no chance 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:49.760 against a full grown elephant unarmed. 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.200 What do they say, Ben, when elephants make war, it's 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:56.279 only the grass that suffers, right, Yes, something along those lines. Yeah, man, 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:58.960 I mean you're gonna get squished. These guys are big boys. 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:04.080 The name, but does pacoderm a catch all for elephants? 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:08.320 There is that more have more specificity than maybe I'm remembering, 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.120 because the word itself just has that air of majesty 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:13.920 and power, doesn't it? 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.880 Packaderm Yeah, pacoderm is a sort of a group name 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.200 for elephants, rhinos, hippos, and tapers. 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:23.240 Got I didn't know that, Ben, I did not know 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.680 that the hippos were included in that, But it makes sense. 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.880 They do all have a similar air of majesty and 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.280 just absolute impenetrable strength. 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:32.960 Yeah. 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.800 Absolutely, and you know, stay on their good side. If 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:41.960 you're looking at your average elephant to the untrained human eye, 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.720 the biggest difference you're gonna see is the size. But 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.800 if you know what to look for, just like differentiating 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:52.480 between ravens and crows, you can easily discern little differences 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.760 like the nature of the dronk or the arrangement of 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:56.240 the ears. 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.120 Wait, pacaderm is to elephant what corvid is to crows 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:00.960 and ravens said the vibe. 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:03.960 Oh that's interesting. Yeah, I guess it would be similar. 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:08.800 Yeah, because packa dermata is in obsolete order of mammals. 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.320 But the term packoderm when you hear it thrown around 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:17.160 in English, is describing those other animals. We gain so little, 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:21.440 little loose on the science here, folks. Yeah, but we 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:25.160 can't tell you. One interesting thing is that all three 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:30.720 of the extant elephant species can interbreed. There are proven 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:36.240 cases of all of them creating a viable offspring. And they, 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.680 despite their differences, and despite the fact that they're divided 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.560 by geography, they have a lot more in common than 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:46.240 they do. In contrast, and one of the biggest commonalities. 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.600 The thing that still shocks humanity today it has thousands 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:53.520 of years, is that elephants are so crazy smart. 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:55.280 They are so smart. 0:08:55.440 --> 0:09:00.760 Yeah, they're smart and empathetic like they mourn right, yes, yeah, 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:01.400 m hm. 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:05.680 They also have the largest brain of any land animal. 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:10.080 We know that they the average elephant brain. We don't 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.920 want to offend any human listeners here, thanks for tuning in. 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.480 The average elephant brain has about three times as many 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:18.120 neurons as a human brain. 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.240 That's probably why they say an elephant never forgets ben. 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:26.400 Yeah, and like you said, no, they exhibit a wide 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:31.640 range of behaviors that really challenge what we assume about humanity. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.120 They can have grief, like you said, they can have empathy, 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:37.480 they can learn, they can mimic, they play. Play is 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.160 actually a huge indicator of intelligence. They'll just get out 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.480 there and horse around. I guess, poor choice of words. 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.960 They can use tools, they have self awareness, they cooperate. 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:55.160 It's bizarre how they can also transmit knowledge across generations. 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:59.600 They're superfamily oriented. They have deep personal lives, just like 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:03.240 all of u us listening tonight. I mean, we could 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.800 kind of say, again, if we're being loose with the 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:09.400 science that elephants are just like humans who happen to 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:12.559 be way bigger than average, and they use your they 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.000 use their nose or you would use your thumb. 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:15.400 Correct. 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.760 Yeah, and the old folk tales about their phenomenal memories 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:22.199 as we were mentioning, are in fact based in reality, 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:26.200 similar to how Homo sapiens or corvid I as we mentioned, Ben, 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:30.400 the corvia is your favorite or Cetacea cetaceai stasia I 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.680 believe can transmit knowledge generationally like you were saying, And 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:37.239 elephants can also do that. They are incredibly family oriented 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.280 and to your point, Band, they do have deep personal lives. 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:46.280 And elephants are also extremely aware of human beings. Unfortunately, 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:48.720 as you can imagine, this is sort of because human 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:52.040 beings kind of insist upon themselves, don't they. Yeah, sort 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.400 of just turn up and make themselves pretty hard to ignore. 0:10:56.080 --> 0:11:01.120 Yes, the elephant looks at the world and says, oh wow, 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.720 this is nice, And the human looks at the savannah 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:04.960 and says, what about me? 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.440 How can I so? How can I make this work 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:11.000 for me? How can I tame this majesty and make 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:11.840 it turn a profit? 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.080 Yeah, and it should be no surprise that the elephant 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:20.600 and the human have deeply complex, often deeply troubled relationships. 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:24.160 It's similar to, like you're saying, any other case of 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:31.120 intelligent non human animals. We see throughout cultures instances of 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:35.400 communities worshiping the elephant, and we also see real life 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:41.240 examples of elephant altruism for seemingly no other reason than 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:45.320 they think something is the right thing to do. The 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.120 elephant will aid humans, it will aid other animals, with 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.600 no discernible benefit to itself. One of the most famous 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:58.840 stories about this involves an elephant that was being used 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.320 to place dig post or you know, place post in 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:05.640 the ground, and it was going one by one to 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.360 these posts, putting them in the ground, and then it 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.959 stopped and despite its handler it's Mahout's efforts to hit 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.320 it and smack it or whatever, the elephant refused to 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:20.080 put the next post in. They looked into the post 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.600 or they looked into the post hole, and they found 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:24.920 that there was a little dog in there, and the 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:27.280 elephant was like, I'm not hurting the pooch. 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:28.880 No way. Yeah, no, you can't. 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:31.400 You can't have those kind of feelings without some sort 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.160 of like moral compass. 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:33.960 I guess kind of. 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:35.640 I mean, I don't know how else to put it, 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:39.800 but it does seem like there is an intense drive 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.240 towards goodness and thinking of others. 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:47.120 They're thoughtful creatures. Thoughtful, Yeah, that's the perfect word. We 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.920 also knew that the human has historically not been super 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:56.679 great reciprocating this affection. It's the story between the human 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.800 and the elephant is a story of a toxic relationship. Obviously, 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.599 there are tons of humans, tons of animal rights activists 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:08.280 to this day who have formed deep kinship with their 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:13.840 larger brethren. But still, overall, most of the relationship's history 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.760 is a study in victimization and terror. So we can't 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.040 blame the elephant for looking around and all these terrible 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:25.000 things happening and saying more humans means more problems. 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.600 I mean, you need to look no further than the 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.000 original animated Disney film Dumbo to see some of the 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:35.720 ways in which humans are pretty awful for elephant kind. 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.040 Oh yeah, humans have committed a litany of sins against 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:45.000 elephant populations. First, they hunted the mammoth to extinction, and 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.400 the ivory trade continues today. Humans did and do hunt 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:54.200 the elephant for ivory, and then also big game recreational hunting, 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.320 which we'll get into in a second. And also, you know, 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:01.480 we continually return to this point. Humans don't seem to 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:06.920 particularly care about the natural environments of most other creatures, 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:11.480 including other humans. And because elephants are again, like you said, 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:15.439 so cartoonishly big, they need a lot of land to roam, 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:17.600 you know what I mean, and they kind of prefer 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.800 that humans not be a huge part of that. 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:21.680 Well in man, I mean, it's even in the best 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:26.680 of circumstances, these types of creatures and their habitats have 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.239 always been under threat, despite the best efforts of conservation 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.800 groups and maybe more conservation minded lawmakers. But in the 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.160 current political climate that we're in, it just seems like 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:40.760 these if there ever was any protection, it's just getting 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:42.240 rolled back on the daily. 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.920 Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean, protection for humans is getting 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:46.600 rolled back. 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.800 So yeah, what's gonna happen to the elephants? 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.280 We also know that historically, and we're using this word correctly, 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.920 humans have enslaved elephants, and this is the crux of 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.520 our exploration tonight. We have to ask you, folks, have 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:06.320 you ever been to an elephant show? Not the one 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:07.120 on Nickelodeon. 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.000 Right now, that's the one that just comes to mind. 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.440 That's a very kind and gentle elephant show, not like 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:13.840 the ones we're going to talk about. 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.280 After a quick word from our sponsor. 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:25.880 Here's where it gets crazy. All right, Elephants, folks have 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.480 been enslaved or what you will call working animals since 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.680 at least four thousand years ago. Humans have been messing 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:35.720 with these guys for a long long time. 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:37.640 It's yet I wonder too, it's like another one of 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:41.000 those historical precedents kind of things where it's like, who's 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.920 the first person that realized that these giant, kind of 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.320 borderline terrifying creatures, if you don't know better, can be 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:52.760 tamed and basically, you know, tricked into submitting to your will. 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:55.080 Yeah, somebody had to. 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.560 There had to have been some some mishaps before you know, 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:02.400 they figured out how to do that quote unquote right right, Yeah. 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:02.520 You know. 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.560 The way I'm thinking of it, man, and this is 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:10.520 entirely speculation on our part, is I imagine an innocent elephant 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.480 helping an early human who was in a jam. 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:15.800 Oh now, you're right then, and they're like, wait a minute, 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:17.640 what if we could weaponize that. 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.680 For lack of a thing exactly, the elephants, the elephants 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.480 saying this is knops what we signed up for. 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:25.840 You know, we were just trying to help. What have 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.240 you helped us all the time? Forever? Yeah? I did 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:30.600 nothing else. Yeah. 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:35.840 And if you are a conspiracy realist of a certain age, 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:39.800 not calling anybody out, you may remember the great circuses 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.840 of old Barnum and Bailey, for instance, as the most 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:43.640 famous one. 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.240 Well, we're of an age where I'm pretty sure I 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:49.920 can't speak for you, Ben, but certainly they would have 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.640 been available or come through our cities. 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:54.280 But I absolutely went. 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:58.080 To Barnum and Bailey circuses growing up, where elephants were 0:16:58.120 --> 0:16:59.240 a huge part of the show. 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.720 Standing on the little, you know, little little footstool. 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:06.439 Things and getting lightly smacked around by these little lips 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.200 didn't seem as a child like I didn't. I didn't 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:12.080 clock that there was anything wrong. But thinking back on it, 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.880 and it's like they didn't want to be there. That's 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:19.119 not cool, No, exactly. Yeah, And that's a very common 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.280 experience I think a lot of us have had because elephants, 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.520 like you said, were historically one of the biggest draws 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.639 of the most popular circuses. They're up there with tigers 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:36.560 and you know, the unfortunately named Freak Show. So you 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:41.919 also notice, as we get older, despite the great spectacle 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:47.159 in so many people's childhoods, off stage, those elephants often 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:52.280 had horrific lives. They're tortured into performing these tricks, like 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.880 you said, they're getting whipped, they have to live in tiny, 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.600 unnatural environments. A lot of them get forced to breed, 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.280 they're worked to death, and then they are discarded when 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.800 they're no longer of use. This was pretty prevalent all 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.760 the way up into late twenty sixteen Asterisk in the 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.800 United States for sure, and as we already mentioned, the 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:17.399 major US circuses, including the quite mouthful tough to say 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.960 Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey. 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.439 Circus, they were doing this. 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:25.920 I mean, it was a major part of their show, 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:27.840 a big draw, like you said, and I definitely went 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.320 to a couple of those, not realizing how kind of 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.679 gross what I was seeing was until I grew up 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:35.880 a little bit and realized some of the contexts around 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:40.199 what we're talking about today. Thankfully, these operations did stop 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.879 using elephants in May of twenty sixteen, largely driven by 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.760 public pressure and local laws which made it difficult for 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.000 them to being a touring operation, you know, be able 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:53.920 to do this in different locations. However, there are still 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:59.160 elephant shows in smaller US venues like local fairs, and 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.000 of course in other countries. We do not want to 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:08.480 cast aspersions on any of the ethics of the handlers 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:12.080 that are maybe doing a fine job and treating these 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.639 creatures as equals, and they often, as you can imagine, 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:20.359 farm deep and complex relationships with their animal friends, and 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.600 you know, oftentimes, like I was mentioning about the Atlanta Zoo, 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:27.879 there are situations where these creatures might be of the 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:29.679 kind that couldn't flourish in the wild. 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.280 Yeah, that's a huge part of it. And that's a 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.760 great point with that caveat. We have to realize that 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:40.119 not every elephant handler or mahout is ethical. There are 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.560 a lot of countries that are still hotbeds for elephant 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:49.600 abuse Thailand, BMMR, India, Paul. Because you know, you're a tourist, 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:53.320 right You're on a once in a lifetime trip across 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.560 the world. You want a picture of you riding an 0:19:56.600 --> 0:20:00.800 elephant or washing one, or you know, like patent. It's trunk. 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:04.240 I have a few pictures of stuff like that. But 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.560 if you go to a twenty seventeen study by the 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:13.280 World Animal Protection Organization or WOP, what you find is 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:21.199 that this well intentioned, seemingly harmless tourism has fueled a 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:25.600 rise in elephants being abducted from the wild and kept 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:29.600 for entertainment. The BBC had a great ride up of this, 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:31.919 and you can also bread the study online. 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:35.520 That's right, And they summarized the issue this way, saying 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.879 that after inspecting two hundred and twenty venues and three 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:42.840 thousand elephants, it was found that only two hundred of 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:48.320 them were living in acceptable captive conditions. These were where 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:52.800 there was no direct interaction with people, no rides, no 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:55.399 washing of the elephants, and no circus tricks. So that 0:20:55.480 --> 0:21:00.120 was definitely the exception to the rule, given the stats there. 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:02.520 And you know, and maybe that several of us are 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:06.200 in the audience may have seen some of these shows 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:10.720 outside of the circus of it all, perhaps while traveling abroad, 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:13.360 perhaps something you just sort of stumbled upon. 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:15.560 It would not be beyond the realm. 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:17.439 Of possibility for that to be the case, And you know, 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:19.679 even if you didn't seek this thing out. They are 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:22.879 pretty prevalent in some of the countries that you mentioned earlier. 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:23.160 Ben. 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:27.120 Oh, yeah, yeah, where the elephant population has naturally been 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:28.680 right for thousands for years. 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:29.760 Sure, yeah, we know. 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:34.920 In twenty twenty, World Animal Production released yet another expos 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.440 a about the training process that you were mentioning there earlier. 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:38.720 Nol. 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:40.480 This is. 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:47.280 Traumatization, it's torture. It is in doctrination, we could use 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:51.920 that word correctly, because they start the elephants very young. 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:56.000 They want to make them submissive enough to interact with tourists, 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:59.840 right to give people rides to perform those tricks. And 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:05.520 this investigation, it found that young elephants are forcibly separated 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:09.520 from their mothers. They're tied to these different wooden strictures. 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:13.320 They're beaten over and over again. They're forced to walk 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.840 in Chaine, They're hobbled to teach them the right cadence 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:17.400 of walking. 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:19.160 A lot of it is depicted in Dumbo. 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:21.360 That is a lot of my experience of what you're 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:26.399 talking about, Ben, and it's portrayed horrifically as not cool. 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.159 So props to the whole Disney company for kind of 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:32.200 I don't know. I mean, I truly do think it's 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.760 a bit of an act of empathy and trying to 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.160 shed light on some of the stuff. And it's children's 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:41.440 animated film. That's a particularly heavy one. Ben, Yeah, bumbo, right. 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:44.000 Yeah, that's one of those ones you and I have 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:46.320 talked about this. I think it was off here. That's 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:50.639 one of those Disney movies where you and I are 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:52.520 pretty certain it wouldn't be made today. 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.040 No, I mean, and I did not see the Tim 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:58.480 Burton remake. I can't imagine that they leaned as hard 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:02.040 into some of that really really traumatic imagery. 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:04.720