WEBVTT - Trump's Constitutional Sheriffs 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:08.240 All Zone media. 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:09.240 Welcome back to it could happen here, a podcast about 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.400 it happening here, and that it that is on everyone's 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.040 minds right now. This will be dropping two or three 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:19.119 days before the twenty twenty four election, possibly two or 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:23.040 three days before everyone's life changes substantially. We have no 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.479 way of knowing. I'm not optimistic or pessimistic. I have 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:28.600 no idea what's going to happen. But one thing that 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:32.200 everyone ought to be aware of, whether or not Trump wins, 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:37.239 is kind of, to put it bluntly, the man has shooters. 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.800 And some of those shooters are literal shooters in that 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:45.800 they are local sheriff's departments, people who call themselves constitutional sheriffs. 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:49.080 This is an organization that's really got off the ground 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.640 in twenty twelve, and for more than a decade has 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:56.360 been making inroads with elected Republican leaders, with Republican influencers, 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:58.680 with groups like the Oath Keepers, and these are guys who, 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:02.880 in brief belief, the sheriff is the only is You 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.440 can kind of get two versions of this, but generally 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.760 either the sheriff is the only legitimate law enforcement authority 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.759 in the country, or the sheriff is the highest legitimate 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.600 law enforcement heard. I've heard it both ways in the country, 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.520 and kind of the reason for this basically is a 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:20.520 lot of people in rural areas that are more conservative 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:23.959 do not want to have to listen to or follow 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.880 the laws made by people in cities. And more to 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:29.679 the point, they believe that the country has been taken 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:34.360 off of a good track by dangerous liberal communist types, 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.160 and you know, they want the ability to use force 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.560 against you know, migrants, against the undocumented, against people they 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.880 see as criminals, against left wing protesters, and this is 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:47.120 kind of a way for them to argue that they 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:49.840 have a right to do it without any restrictions. Now, 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:52.279 the whole story is much deeper than that, and to 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:54.320 talk about what I think is one of the most 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:58.560 important subjects to be discussing right now, because you know, 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.400 people laugh a lot about life, the gravy seals or 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:03.560 whatever like, you know, all these different kind of out 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.480 of shape militia dudes, the kind of silly fumbling that 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.120 we saw a lot at January sixth, you know, which 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:12.919 I think is a mistake, just because January sixth was 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.239 still quite dangerous. But when we're talking about these guys, 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.800 these are not just like random yeho's. These are people 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.919 who have the force of law behind them. They're armed, 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.040 they're organized, and they're quite dangerous. And to talk about 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.800 how dangerous they are and where they came from, I 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.880 want to bring on a wonderful journalist, investigative reporter and 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:36.840 PRA research director Chloe Cooper, who has co executive produced 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:41.160 a podcast on the Constitutional Sheriff's movement called The Insurgents, 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.400 which is a co production of Political Research Associates and 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.760 Quintero Productions. Chloe, I think I got that all right? Right? 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:49.640 That was awesome? 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:53.960 Yes, y, thank you, thank you. Yeah, So let's talk 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.040 about this. Where do these guys? I gave a little 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.360 brief overview, but like where do these guys come from? 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:00.600 And you know, what do we see from them and 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:02.519 the lead up to this election? Like what are they? 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:04.400 What are they going to do? Do you think? 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:05.880 Yeah? 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.440 I mean I loved the overview that you just gave. 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.280 I think that was such a great way. 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:12.480 To approach this all. 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.440 So, the leader of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:21.919 Association is this guy named former Sheriff Mac And he 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:26.160 was a sheriff in Arizona. But one little important detail 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.359 to note is that he actually kind of got his 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:34.720 bearings before that in Nevada, and he was courted by 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:38.560 someone who was basically in very close company with the 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:39.600 John Birch Society. 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:42.960 Always comes back to them, I know. 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:47.120 He actually becomes a sheriff partially because of some of 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:49.960 the ideas that come out of the John Birch Society 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.400 and some of this kind of like emerging trend that 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.200 in some cases is actually like skeptical of the federal government, 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:01.480 skeptical of state governments. Yeah, and then they start to 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.000 build out with sheriffs in different parts of the country. 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:08.040 At times, I would say the network has really ebbed 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.960 and flowed. But a couple of things that have been 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.200 important to note, like throughout the six years of researching 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.080 this network of sheriffs, that I think is really important, 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:22.800 especially in advance of the elections. One is that sheriffs 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.720 who are aligned with this have really embraced this idea 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:31.760 that you can deputize anybody. Yeah, so in some cases 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.000 you have oath keepers and other militias going to the 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:37.039 sheriff to say, hey, you want to deputize me, But 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:40.320 in other cases we've actually followed sheriffs who are going 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:42.880 into churches and saying, we're deputizing all of you. 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.159 Great sheriffs in Virginia when. 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.600 The state passed a law that was like a law 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:52.440 for some gun restrictions, saying don't worry, people were actually 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:53.440 going to deputize you. 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.719 Yeah, that way you can have whatever gun you want 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.840 and carry it anywhere. Yes, yeah, and all. 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.839 So what we started to see is that during the 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:07.120 former Trump administration, he was really actually courting sheriffs around 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.680 the country, and I think he started to see networks 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:14.200 like CSPOA as like part of his ground troops. And 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.400 so I think that there is a potential danger in 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.640 sheriffs that are part of this formal network called the 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.640 CSPOA or other sheriffs, because there are hundreds more that 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.920 just have like aligned with their way of thinking about things, 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:31.200 just playing this role of deputizing more people and creating 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.640 this kind of idea of like a super citizen or 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:39.200 people who are kind of aligned with a far right 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:41.839 way of seeing the world and then getting deputies to 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:43.719 be part of the kind of ground troops for that. 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:47.520 So that's like one thing, and then in addition to that, 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:52.080 there is also CSPOA itself teamed up with this group 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.920 called True the Vote, which has mostly since been discredited, 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.240 but it's been one of the loudest groups in the 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:02.080 country that has been spreading this idea that the twenty 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.440 twenty election was stolen and has been actually working with 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.039 county sheriffs to try to investigate voter fraud at the 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:12.839 local level, but in some cases also working with sheriffs 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.920 to align with vigilante groups on the border, for example, 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:22.919 to intimidate people from actually voting. And so there's kind of, 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:27.520 i would say, like a multi pronged series of potential 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.719 risks and dangers that could play out, particularly from this 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:36.560 network in the coming weeks. One other quick thing I'll 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.120 note is that one of the very latest things that 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.200 we saw, and this actually came out of a close 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.719 kind of colleague in the movement, Devin Burkhardt, who works 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.640 at the Institute for Research and Education on Human Rights, 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:51.760 is that he came across a plan that the Constitutional 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.200 Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association put out in Florida, and 0:06:55.279 --> 0:07:00.239 the plan is to essentially resurrect kind of sovereign citizens 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:07.560 groups in Florida, militia's citizen militias in collaboration with sheriffs 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:12.440 to do kind of old school style like intimidation of 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:17.520 election clerks of people involved in the election process, and 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.520 they plan to try to hold tribunals if, for example, 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:23.960 the certification of election goes in the direction they disagree with. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:26.760 And now, as a hardcore leftist, you may find like, 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.200 what do you actually think about voting and whether that 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:31.200 actually changes things and all of that, And I'm like, 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:33.360 I've had those, you know, thought bubbles in my brain 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.280 for a long time also, But I think what we have, 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.120 what I've started to see is that the constitutional sheriffs 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.560 to me represent, and also the groups of people who 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.960 have aligned with them are actual not just white nationalists, 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.800 but people who are neo Confederates. And I think of 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.360 it more of like a neo confederacy, and that what 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.760 we could see is something like sheriffs actually coming in 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:01.840 confrontation with potentially even police and mayor and governors and 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.240 them representing a different kind of politic, a different type 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:07.880 of way of seeing society. And one person also talked 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.760 about how the constitutional what are they really referring to? 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:12.120 Are they referring to? 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.480 You know, what is it? The organic constitution? 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.080 Essentially before slavery was abolished, before women had the right 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.960 to vote, before the you know, Native Americans had the 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:25.240 right to vote. And so if that's the case, that 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.840 that is actually the kind of constitution that they are 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:33.360 upholding and representing, then they are actually been quite successful 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:39.080 in building out different alliances around the country within a 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:44.640 somewhat prominent law enforcement institution that has very little accountability. 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.200 Yeah. And I so this is where I kind of 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.920 wind up in conflict with both liberals and a lot 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.480 of leftists. Is I think that the leftists who say 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.319 like there's no point in voting are wrong for the 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.720 same reason like I think people who say there's no 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:07.000 reason for civilians to be armed. I don't happen to 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:08.559 agree with that, and I don't happen to agree with 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.960 it because I think if somebody who wants to kill 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.760 you has a weapon and you have the ability to 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.880 either match that weapon or take it from them, then 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.480 that's probably what you should do for the sake of 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.520 your own survival. And handing over complete control of the state, 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.280 the military, and the police apparatus to the far right 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.920 is handing them the most powerful weapon anyone has ever made. 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:30.680 And I just don't think that's wise. 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:31.319 Now. 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.160 At the same token, the thing that kind of liberals 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:36.120 will bring up a lot, which is that like, just vote, 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:38.520 just get out and vote. Well, we've been doing that 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:44.760 and Democrats have overwhelmingly outperformed conservatives in elections this century, 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.240 and it hasn't been enough. And it hasn't been enough 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.920 in part because these people don't care about the law. 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:53.240 You know, there's a moment in your podcast where I like, 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.280 you have an expert on who's kind of talking about 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.360 the sheriff deputizing you know, seventy people or whatever in 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:01.280 the small town and being like, well, he's not actually 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.600 allowed to do that, Like, you know, the actual letter 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:06.400 of the law does not give him the right to 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:11.000 be doing this. He's misinterpreting the constitution. But the reality 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:13.640 of the situation is that, like, he's allowed to do 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.520 whatever he can get enough people with guns to back 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:20.800 him in doing And that's honestly, the root of all 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.000 politics is how much force can you bring to bear, 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.240 you know, in order to support the reality you want 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.320 to support, right, Like, that is how it all works. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:33.960 And the bet the right is making with all of 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.280 these different anti democratic strategies they're trying is that no 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.160 matter what they do, and no matter how far against 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.320 the Constitution, against the rule of law they take things, 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:48.200 they will have the force to support their version of reality. 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:52.000 And I don't know, I don't know how we thread 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.440 this needle. Right. The easiest thing is like, well, maybe 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:58.839 if Kamala has a really resounding victory, there just won't 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:00.680 be much for them to fight on, right, and they'll 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.680 kind of back down. But even if she wins in 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.080 twenty twenty four, which I think is the better of 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.200 the options that we've got, these people aren't going away. 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.160 And in fact, I think you are going to see 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:14.840 challenges at local levels. I think it's not impossible that 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.360 we wind up with like an anti pope style situation 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.240 with the presidency, whereas like Trump holds his own inauguration 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.280 and a bunch of state and local leaders say like, no, 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:28.480 we're not recognizing the Harris administration. Donald Trump is our president. Like, 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:31.200 there's a lot of weird shit that could wind up 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.880 as the result of this, And I just don't see 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.920 us getting out of this purely through electoral methods. And 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.320 I don't know what. I don't know how else we 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.240 handle it, right, Because you also get into this situation 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.160 of like, Okay, well we're going to send in the 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.640 police to crack down on these sheriffs that are breaking 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:49.280 the law. Well, what if the police don't want to 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.080 do it. What if the police are more supportive of 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.400 these sheriffs departments than they are of you know, they're 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.319 elected leaders in the state or at the federal level. 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.040 You know, what if the f b I as has 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.240 happened in the past, What if the Feds are unwilling 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.000 to go up against a bunch of arm heavily armed 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.240 quote unquote patriots, you know, like we saw in you know, 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:12.880 some of the Bundy shit from about a decade ago, right, Like, 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:16.200 what if what if the people who are supposed to 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:20.680 handle this for the citizenry in a situation that abides 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:24.840 by the law abrogate their responsibility because they're scared you 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:26.120 know who backs us up? Then? 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:28.800 Wow, Okay, you just put a lot out there. 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.120 Sorry, Like I wanted to respond about a minute. 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:33.600 Oh one more. 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:35.400 I apologist. That was my that was my bed. 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:37.760 That was so great, I think Okay, a couple a 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:42.520 couple of thoughts. One is that I think that far 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:48.120 right movements are very much mobilizing within the government right now, 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.120 and or you could say maybe fascism is trying to 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.200 mobilize within the government. Absolutely, and so I think you 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:57.640 have I think we have to grapple with that really seriously. 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.160 And so like in terms of anti fascist strategies, I 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:02.920 don't know what is what could that actually look like 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.880 right now, but you have to grapple with the reality 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:11.400 that many far right movements have made serious, serious headway 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:16.959 into not just former president, but into state legislators, into 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:23.959 the judicial system, into sheriff's departments, and so we are 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:28.520 seeing a major fissure right now. So I don't know 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.319 how to respond completely to some of the questions around 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:35.800 around electoral politics, but I think those are really important 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.840 questions that you're posing. And then just to go pivot 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.640 back to my wheelhouse, which is the right and the 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.120 far right and some of their strategies. One of the 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.720 things that you touched on is something that a number 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:54.600 of different far right strategies have been practicing over the years, 0:13:55.080 --> 0:14:01.920 and it is about this idea of both nullification or interposition. 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:02.160 Is what they call it. 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.040 So these constitutional sheriffs, one of the tactics that they 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.520 have used over the years is to get sheriffs around 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:14.760 the country to not enforce state laws, right, and so 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.840 you had a whole wave of sheriffs around the country 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:22.640 supporting sanctuaries for the Second Amendment. Second Amendment sanctuaries. Okay, 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:24.400 so they said in their own county, we're not going 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.880 to enforce gun restriction laws. And again, think about that, however, 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:29.600 you will all good, but they're saying we're not going 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:30.880 to afford us at the county level. 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:31.280 Yeah. 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:32.840 Then you had all these shriffs around the country being like, 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:34.480 we're not going to enforce lockdown ers, we're not going 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:35.760 to enforce mask mandates. 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.400 What are they practicing. They're practicing the muscle of exactly 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:40.360 what you just talked. 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.400 About, right, right, Yeah, I think that's a great way 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:43.200 to look at it too. 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.360 Yeah, independent of what's happening at the federal government, independent 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:52.360 of who wins right now, there is like a confederated 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:56.680 situation happening in the country, and these sheriffs and also 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:01.840 others have been very much in those So it's not 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.720 just kind of the militias that will back these sheriffs 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.760 that are interested in that type of strategy. There's the 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.760 whole like all these different movements that come out of 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:15.960 the Christian reconstructionists all talk about interposition, so the idea 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.640 of getting sheriffs other elected officials within the local magistrate 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.680 to prop up and kind of protect your politics, regardless 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:25.800 of the state or federal And so now we have 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.960 this interesting moment where you've had in recent history, you know, 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:33.320 a former president that actually aligned with some of those politics, 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:35.560 and then you have a bunch of state legislators that 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:39.840 align and so I think understanding some of the strategies 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.960 that's important. It's important to understand that you may have 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.040 sheriffs that are backing this, and they may not always 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:46.840 align with the police, and they may not always align 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:48.800 with the governor, and so it's going to be a 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:51.440 little different than what we may often think of as 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:54.640 like systemic white supremacy, where all the state and law 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.880 enforcement are lock and step together. I think looking at 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.240 the Civil War, as you've done so many different times, 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.560 is actually really important, Like how does this reflect patterns 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.560 that are more similar actually to you know, the Confederacy 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.080 against the North or those or you know, these types 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.600 of other moments in US history. 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.080 I'm gonna throw to ads and then I'll come back. So, yeah, everybody, 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:28.840 here's here's some maths. We're back. I wanted to ask, 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.040 are there cases you can think of of like some 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.120 of these guys, these constitutional sheriffs who have been voted 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:39.120 out and like forced out of office and had kind 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.480 of these some of these like policies that they've been 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.160 pushing reverse, Like do we have do we have any 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:48.360 kind of case studies of times sheriffs went, you know, 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.040 hard into this ideology and actually lost power as a 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:52.640 result of it. 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:58.360 So actually in episode four it touches on it briefly, 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.840 but it's a really interesting and kind of rather both 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.200 in some ways inspiring but also disturbing. 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:05.160 Case study to some degree. 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.879 There was a sheriff in North Carolina, Sheriff Jim Pendergraph 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:13.320 of Mecklenburg County, and he was really inspired by the 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.120 former sheriff Joe Orpio in Arizona. And he is one 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:20.240 of the people who really champions this program called two 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:24.680 eighty seven G which allows sheriffs to basically deputize their 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:28.720 office as ice federal ice agents and work with ICE. 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.600 So he pilots that in Mecklenburg County and then as 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:34.880 basically picked up by ICE and kind of helps try 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:38.159 to spread it all throughout the South. Something pretty historic 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.000 and incredible happened in some ways in twenty eighteen, where 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:45.600 you had black organizers, immigrant rights organizers pushed for this 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.600 whole campaign to oust him and a number of other 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:54.040 close by kind of real white supremacist sheriffs in North Carolina, 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:56.199 and they were successful, and there was a sheriff that 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:58.480 ran and a number of black sheriffs were elected in 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:00.840 the state, and some of the sheriffs ran on not 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:04.960 complying with ice and knock up and ending this program 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:09.000 called the twenty seven g Agreement, and seemed like this 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:13.320 historic moment, this historic win in the immediate aftermath of that, 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:18.120 as opposed to in moments where you have sheriff saying 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.480 we're not going to enforce the lockdown order and essentially, 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.440 besides some reporters reporting on it, nothing happens. Instead, what 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:30.040 happened is that within a few months of this sheriff 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.359 ending the twenty seven g Agreement, the federal government comes 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.880 in and issues pretty massive ice raids through the county 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:41.919 and actually ends up locking up over one hundred different people, 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:43.720 many of whom got deported. 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.240 Pretty soon after that, you had a. 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.360 Number of other sheriffs in the state, including this one 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.640 constitutional sheriff who also had aligned with another large anti 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:55.480 immigrant network called the Federation for American Immigration Reform, essentially 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.880 organizing in the state for the state to push back 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.120 and push an entire state wide mandate that all sheriffs 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:05.640 comply with ICE. So that's not really an uplifting story. 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:08.080 Yeah, actually not quite. 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:12.240 I think what it demonstrates, in a tough way, is 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:16.399 more about this kind of like when sheriffs claim all 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.920 of this autonomy at the local level, which they seem 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:21.679 to actually in many cases be able to practice kind 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.200 of quite well, you know, when they say they want 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:29.639 to enforce the state wide gutten restrictions or mask mandates. Again, 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:31.639 from what I understand, and I've been in touch with 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:34.359 some of the like leading constitutional lawyers who are trying 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:35.720 to look into it further. 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.200 Yeah, almost nothing happens. But then if you have let's say, 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:40.040 a sheriff. 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.800 In this case, you know, not ending an agreement with ICE, 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:49.200 there's a pretty serious and significant backlash. There has also 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.399 though been you know, there was an amazing campaign to 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.520 eventually get sheriff, your former sheriff, your or PYO out 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:59.480 that took like a ton of organizing by immigrant rights 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:04.720 organizers in Arizona, and that was pretty incredible and sustained, 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:06.560 and there's been a lot of good stuff. 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:06.959 Written about it. 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:10.000 So it's not it's not not the case that people 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:14.320 have built campaigns and have been able to unseat their sheriff. 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:16.960 Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's that's good to know, 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:21.760 because like, I much prefer the like slow disassembling of 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:24.160 this in a world in which they don't just get 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.720 full power and start, you know, going after people with 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:30.360 the wrong signs on their front yards, than any other 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:34.800 option here. It just it seems like it's one of 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.600 those situations where the deck is very much stacked in 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.760 their favor, right in part because of how long I 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:45.520 think this problem has been ignored, Like it's really just 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:49.680 now I'm so glad that y'all's podcast is out because 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.239 I still don't think there's nearly enough attention on like 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.560 what these sheriffs are doing, because this really is it's 0:20:55.560 --> 0:21:00.320 so fundamentally anti democratic in a way that is also 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:04.399 has a great deal of legitimacy in the eyes and 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.200 ears of at least a lot of the people living 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:09.520 in these areas, right, Like, this is not just some Yahoo, 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.919 declaring himself, you know, a militia. It's not like the 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.720 State of Jefferson movement saying like We're totally going to 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.119 secede from California. These are guys with real power. So 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:22.680 I guess kind of where I'd like to close by 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:28.080 is asking do you see a shift in rhetoric from 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:31.560 these people from like twenty twenty to twenty twenty four, like, 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:36.560 because I feel like right now the rhetoric is much 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:41.280 more like aggressively anti like the enemy within, whereas you know, 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:43.680 in twenty twenty it was much more focused on gun 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:47.080 rights and going after migrants. But I think you would 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:50.240 have a better better sense of that than I do. 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:55.600 So one thing is that immediately following twenty twenty, there 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.040 was some effort on the part of CSPOA to start 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:01.440 to slightly distance themselves from the Oath Keepers. 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:03.400 Yeah, CSPO the Oathkeepers. 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:07.399 I mean the former Sheriff mac that was the founder 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:09.800 of the CSPOA was on the board of the Oath Keepers, 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:13.040