1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: All Zone media. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 2: Welcome back to it could happen here, a podcast about 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 2: it happening here, and that it that is on everyone's 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: minds right now. This will be dropping two or three 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 2: days before the twenty twenty four election, possibly two or 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: three days before everyone's life changes substantially. We have no 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 2: way of knowing. I'm not optimistic or pessimistic. I have 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 2: no idea what's going to happen. But one thing that 9 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 2: everyone ought to be aware of, whether or not Trump wins, 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 2: is kind of, to put it bluntly, the man has shooters. 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: And some of those shooters are literal shooters in that 12 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: they are local sheriff's departments, people who call themselves constitutional sheriffs. 13 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 2: This is an organization that's really got off the ground 14 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: in twenty twelve, and for more than a decade has 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 2: been making inroads with elected Republican leaders, with Republican influencers, 16 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: with groups like the Oath Keepers, and these are guys who, 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: in brief belief, the sheriff is the only is You 18 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: can kind of get two versions of this, but generally 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 2: either the sheriff is the only legitimate law enforcement authority 20 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 2: in the country, or the sheriff is the highest legitimate 21 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: law enforcement heard. I've heard it both ways in the country, 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: and kind of the reason for this basically is a 23 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: lot of people in rural areas that are more conservative 24 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 2: do not want to have to listen to or follow 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: the laws made by people in cities. And more to 26 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 2: the point, they believe that the country has been taken 27 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 2: off of a good track by dangerous liberal communist types, 28 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 2: and you know, they want the ability to use force 29 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: against you know, migrants, against the undocumented, against people they 30 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: see as criminals, against left wing protesters, and this is 31 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 2: kind of a way for them to argue that they 32 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: have a right to do it without any restrictions. Now, 33 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,279 Speaker 2: the whole story is much deeper than that, and to 34 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: talk about what I think is one of the most 35 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 2: important subjects to be discussing right now, because you know, 36 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: people laugh a lot about life, the gravy seals or 37 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: whatever like, you know, all these different kind of out 38 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: of shape militia dudes, the kind of silly fumbling that 39 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: we saw a lot at January sixth, you know, which 40 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 2: I think is a mistake, just because January sixth was 41 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 2: still quite dangerous. But when we're talking about these guys, 42 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: these are not just like random yeho's. These are people 43 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 2: who have the force of law behind them. They're armed, 44 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: they're organized, and they're quite dangerous. And to talk about 45 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 2: how dangerous they are and where they came from, I 46 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 2: want to bring on a wonderful journalist, investigative reporter and 47 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 2: PRA research director Chloe Cooper, who has co executive produced 48 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: a podcast on the Constitutional Sheriff's movement called The Insurgents, 49 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 2: which is a co production of Political Research Associates and 50 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: Quintero Productions. Chloe, I think I got that all right? Right? 51 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 3: That was awesome? 52 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: Yes, y, thank you, thank you. Yeah, So let's talk 53 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: about this. Where do these guys? I gave a little 54 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: brief overview, but like where do these guys come from? 55 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: And you know, what do we see from them and 56 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 2: the lead up to this election? Like what are they? 57 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 2: What are they going to do? Do you think? 58 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 3: Yeah? 59 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 4: I mean I loved the overview that you just gave. 60 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 4: I think that was such a great way. 61 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 3: To approach this all. 62 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 4: So, the leader of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers 63 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 4: Association is this guy named former Sheriff Mac And he 64 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 4: was a sheriff in Arizona. But one little important detail 65 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 4: to note is that he actually kind of got his 66 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 4: bearings before that in Nevada, and he was courted by 67 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 4: someone who was basically in very close company with the 68 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 4: John Birch Society. 69 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: Always comes back to them, I know. 70 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 4: He actually becomes a sheriff partially because of some of 71 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 4: the ideas that come out of the John Birch Society 72 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 4: and some of this kind of like emerging trend that 73 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 4: in some cases is actually like skeptical of the federal government, 74 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 4: skeptical of state governments. Yeah, and then they start to 75 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 4: build out with sheriffs in different parts of the country. 76 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 4: At times, I would say the network has really ebbed 77 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 4: and flowed. But a couple of things that have been 78 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 4: important to note, like throughout the six years of researching 79 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 4: this network of sheriffs, that I think is really important, 80 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 4: especially in advance of the elections. One is that sheriffs 81 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 4: who are aligned with this have really embraced this idea 82 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 4: that you can deputize anybody. Yeah, so in some cases 83 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 4: you have oath keepers and other militias going to the 84 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 4: sheriff to say, hey, you want to deputize me, But 85 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 4: in other cases we've actually followed sheriffs who are going 86 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 4: into churches and saying, we're deputizing all of you. 87 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 3: Great sheriffs in Virginia when. 88 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 4: The state passed a law that was like a law 89 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 4: for some gun restrictions, saying don't worry, people were actually 90 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 4: going to deputize you. 91 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, that way you can have whatever gun you want 92 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 2: and carry it anywhere. Yes, yeah, and all. 93 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 4: So what we started to see is that during the 94 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 4: former Trump administration, he was really actually courting sheriffs around 95 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 4: the country, and I think he started to see networks 96 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 4: like CSPOA as like part of his ground troops. And 97 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 4: so I think that there is a potential danger in 98 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 4: sheriffs that are part of this formal network called the 99 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 4: CSPOA or other sheriffs, because there are hundreds more that 100 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 4: just have like aligned with their way of thinking about things, 101 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 4: just playing this role of deputizing more people and creating 102 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 4: this kind of idea of like a super citizen or 103 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 4: people who are kind of aligned with a far right 104 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 4: way of seeing the world and then getting deputies to 105 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 4: be part of the kind of ground troops for that. 106 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 4: So that's like one thing, and then in addition to that, 107 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 4: there is also CSPOA itself teamed up with this group 108 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 4: called True the Vote, which has mostly since been discredited, 109 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 4: but it's been one of the loudest groups in the 110 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 4: country that has been spreading this idea that the twenty 111 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 4: twenty election was stolen and has been actually working with 112 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 4: county sheriffs to try to investigate voter fraud at the 113 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 4: local level, but in some cases also working with sheriffs 114 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 4: to align with vigilante groups on the border, for example, 115 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 4: to intimidate people from actually voting. And so there's kind of, 116 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 4: i would say, like a multi pronged series of potential 117 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 4: risks and dangers that could play out, particularly from this 118 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 4: network in the coming weeks. One other quick thing I'll 119 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 4: note is that one of the very latest things that 120 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 4: we saw, and this actually came out of a close 121 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 4: kind of colleague in the movement, Devin Burkhardt, who works 122 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 4: at the Institute for Research and Education on Human Rights, 123 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 4: is that he came across a plan that the Constitutional 124 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 4: Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association put out in Florida, and 125 00:06:55,279 --> 00:07:00,239 Speaker 4: the plan is to essentially resurrect kind of sovereign citizens 126 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 4: groups in Florida, militia's citizen militias in collaboration with sheriffs 127 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 4: to do kind of old school style like intimidation of 128 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 4: election clerks of people involved in the election process, and 129 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 4: they plan to try to hold tribunals if, for example, 130 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 4: the certification of election goes in the direction they disagree with. 131 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 4: And now, as a hardcore leftist, you may find like, 132 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 4: what do you actually think about voting and whether that 133 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 4: actually changes things and all of that, And I'm like, 134 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 4: I've had those, you know, thought bubbles in my brain 135 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 4: for a long time also, But I think what we have, 136 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 4: what I've started to see is that the constitutional sheriffs 137 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 4: to me represent, and also the groups of people who 138 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 4: have aligned with them are actual not just white nationalists, 139 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 4: but people who are neo Confederates. And I think of 140 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 4: it more of like a neo confederacy, and that what 141 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 4: we could see is something like sheriffs actually coming in 142 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 4: confrontation with potentially even police and mayor and governors and 143 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 4: them representing a different kind of politic, a different type 144 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 4: of way of seeing society. And one person also talked 145 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 4: about how the constitutional what are they really referring to? 146 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 4: Are they referring to? 147 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 3: You know, what is it? The organic constitution? 148 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 4: Essentially before slavery was abolished, before women had the right 149 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 4: to vote, before the you know, Native Americans had the 150 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 4: right to vote. And so if that's the case, that 151 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 4: that is actually the kind of constitution that they are 152 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 4: upholding and representing, then they are actually been quite successful 153 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 4: in building out different alliances around the country within a 154 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 4: somewhat prominent law enforcement institution that has very little accountability. 155 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I so this is where I kind of 156 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: wind up in conflict with both liberals and a lot 157 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: of leftists. Is I think that the leftists who say 158 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 2: like there's no point in voting are wrong for the 159 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 2: same reason like I think people who say there's no 160 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: reason for civilians to be armed. I don't happen to 161 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 2: agree with that, and I don't happen to agree with 162 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: it because I think if somebody who wants to kill 163 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 2: you has a weapon and you have the ability to 164 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: either match that weapon or take it from them, then 165 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: that's probably what you should do for the sake of 166 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: your own survival. And handing over complete control of the state, 167 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 2: the military, and the police apparatus to the far right 168 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: is handing them the most powerful weapon anyone has ever made. 169 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 2: And I just don't think that's wise. 170 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: Now. 171 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: At the same token, the thing that kind of liberals 172 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 2: will bring up a lot, which is that like, just vote, 173 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 2: just get out and vote. Well, we've been doing that 174 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: and Democrats have overwhelmingly outperformed conservatives in elections this century, 175 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: and it hasn't been enough. And it hasn't been enough 176 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: in part because these people don't care about the law. 177 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: You know, there's a moment in your podcast where I like, 178 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: you have an expert on who's kind of talking about 179 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: the sheriff deputizing you know, seventy people or whatever in 180 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: the small town and being like, well, he's not actually 181 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: allowed to do that, Like, you know, the actual letter 182 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: of the law does not give him the right to 183 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: be doing this. He's misinterpreting the constitution. But the reality 184 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: of the situation is that, like, he's allowed to do 185 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: whatever he can get enough people with guns to back 186 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: him in doing And that's honestly, the root of all 187 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: politics is how much force can you bring to bear, 188 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: you know, in order to support the reality you want 189 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 2: to support, right, Like, that is how it all works. 190 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 2: And the bet the right is making with all of 191 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 2: these different anti democratic strategies they're trying is that no 192 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: matter what they do, and no matter how far against 193 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 2: the Constitution, against the rule of law they take things, 194 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 2: they will have the force to support their version of reality. 195 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 2: And I don't know, I don't know how we thread 196 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 2: this needle. Right. The easiest thing is like, well, maybe 197 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 2: if Kamala has a really resounding victory, there just won't 198 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 2: be much for them to fight on, right, and they'll 199 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 2: kind of back down. But even if she wins in 200 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, which I think is the better of 201 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 2: the options that we've got, these people aren't going away. 202 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 2: And in fact, I think you are going to see 203 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: challenges at local levels. I think it's not impossible that 204 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 2: we wind up with like an anti pope style situation 205 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: with the presidency, whereas like Trump holds his own inauguration 206 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: and a bunch of state and local leaders say like, no, 207 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: we're not recognizing the Harris administration. Donald Trump is our president. Like, 208 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 2: there's a lot of weird shit that could wind up 209 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 2: as the result of this, And I just don't see 210 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 2: us getting out of this purely through electoral methods. And 211 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 2: I don't know what. I don't know how else we 212 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 2: handle it, right, Because you also get into this situation 213 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: of like, Okay, well we're going to send in the 214 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 2: police to crack down on these sheriffs that are breaking 215 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: the law. Well, what if the police don't want to 216 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: do it. What if the police are more supportive of 217 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: these sheriffs departments than they are of you know, they're 218 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 2: elected leaders in the state or at the federal level. 219 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 2: You know, what if the f b I as has 220 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 2: happened in the past, What if the Feds are unwilling 221 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: to go up against a bunch of arm heavily armed 222 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: quote unquote patriots, you know, like we saw in you know, 223 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: some of the Bundy shit from about a decade ago, right, Like, 224 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: what if what if the people who are supposed to 225 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 2: handle this for the citizenry in a situation that abides 226 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 2: by the law abrogate their responsibility because they're scared you 227 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 2: know who backs us up? Then? 228 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, you just put a lot out there. 229 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 4: Sorry, Like I wanted to respond about a minute. 230 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 3: Oh one more. 231 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: I apologist. That was my that was my bed. 232 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 4: That was so great, I think Okay, a couple a 233 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 4: couple of thoughts. One is that I think that far 234 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 4: right movements are very much mobilizing within the government right now, 235 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 4: and or you could say maybe fascism is trying to 236 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 4: mobilize within the government. Absolutely, and so I think you 237 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 4: have I think we have to grapple with that really seriously. 238 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 4: And so like in terms of anti fascist strategies, I 239 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 4: don't know what is what could that actually look like 240 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 4: right now, but you have to grapple with the reality 241 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 4: that many far right movements have made serious, serious headway 242 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 4: into not just former president, but into state legislators, into 243 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 4: the judicial system, into sheriff's departments, and so we are 244 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 4: seeing a major fissure right now. So I don't know 245 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 4: how to respond completely to some of the questions around 246 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 4: around electoral politics, but I think those are really important 247 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 4: questions that you're posing. And then just to go pivot 248 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 4: back to my wheelhouse, which is the right and the 249 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 4: far right and some of their strategies. One of the 250 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 4: things that you touched on is something that a number 251 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 4: of different far right strategies have been practicing over the years, 252 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 4: and it is about this idea of both nullification or interposition. 253 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 3: Is what they call it. 254 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 4: So these constitutional sheriffs, one of the tactics that they 255 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 4: have used over the years is to get sheriffs around 256 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 4: the country to not enforce state laws, right, and so 257 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 4: you had a whole wave of sheriffs around the country 258 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 4: supporting sanctuaries for the Second Amendment. Second Amendment sanctuaries. Okay, 259 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 4: so they said in their own county, we're not going 260 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 4: to enforce gun restriction laws. And again, think about that, however, 261 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 4: you will all good, but they're saying we're not going 262 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 4: to afford us at the county level. 263 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 264 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 4: Then you had all these shriffs around the country being like, 265 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 4: we're not going to enforce lockdown ers, we're not going 266 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 4: to enforce mask mandates. 267 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 3: What are they practicing. They're practicing the muscle of exactly 268 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 3: what you just talked. 269 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: About, right, right, Yeah, I think that's a great way 270 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: to look at it too. 271 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, independent of what's happening at the federal government, independent 272 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 4: of who wins right now, there is like a confederated 273 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 4: situation happening in the country, and these sheriffs and also 274 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 4: others have been very much in those So it's not 275 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 4: just kind of the militias that will back these sheriffs 276 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 4: that are interested in that type of strategy. There's the 277 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 4: whole like all these different movements that come out of 278 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 4: the Christian reconstructionists all talk about interposition, so the idea 279 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 4: of getting sheriffs other elected officials within the local magistrate 280 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 4: to prop up and kind of protect your politics, regardless 281 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 4: of the state or federal And so now we have 282 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 4: this interesting moment where you've had in recent history, you know, 283 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 4: a former president that actually aligned with some of those politics, 284 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 4: and then you have a bunch of state legislators that 285 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 4: align and so I think understanding some of the strategies 286 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 4: that's important. It's important to understand that you may have 287 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 4: sheriffs that are backing this, and they may not always 288 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 4: align with the police, and they may not always align 289 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 4: with the governor, and so it's going to be a 290 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 4: little different than what we may often think of as 291 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 4: like systemic white supremacy, where all the state and law 292 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 4: enforcement are lock and step together. I think looking at 293 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 4: the Civil War, as you've done so many different times, 294 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 4: is actually really important, Like how does this reflect patterns 295 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 4: that are more similar actually to you know, the Confederacy 296 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 4: against the North or those or you know, these types 297 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 4: of other moments in US history. 298 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 2: I'm gonna throw to ads and then I'll come back. So, yeah, everybody, 299 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: here's here's some maths. We're back. I wanted to ask, 300 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: are there cases you can think of of like some 301 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: of these guys, these constitutional sheriffs who have been voted 302 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: out and like forced out of office and had kind 303 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 2: of these some of these like policies that they've been 304 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: pushing reverse, Like do we have do we have any 305 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: kind of case studies of times sheriffs went, you know, 306 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 2: hard into this ideology and actually lost power as a 307 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 2: result of it. 308 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 4: So actually in episode four it touches on it briefly, 309 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 4: but it's a really interesting and kind of rather both 310 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 4: in some ways inspiring but also disturbing. 311 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 3: Case study to some degree. 312 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 4: There was a sheriff in North Carolina, Sheriff Jim Pendergraph 313 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 4: of Mecklenburg County, and he was really inspired by the 314 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 4: former sheriff Joe Orpio in Arizona. And he is one 315 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 4: of the people who really champions this program called two 316 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 4: eighty seven G which allows sheriffs to basically deputize their 317 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 4: office as ice federal ice agents and work with ICE. 318 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 4: So he pilots that in Mecklenburg County and then as 319 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 4: basically picked up by ICE and kind of helps try 320 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 4: to spread it all throughout the South. Something pretty historic 321 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 4: and incredible happened in some ways in twenty eighteen, where 322 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 4: you had black organizers, immigrant rights organizers pushed for this 323 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 4: whole campaign to oust him and a number of other 324 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 4: close by kind of real white supremacist sheriffs in North Carolina, 325 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 4: and they were successful, and there was a sheriff that 326 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 4: ran and a number of black sheriffs were elected in 327 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 4: the state, and some of the sheriffs ran on not 328 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 4: complying with ice and knock up and ending this program 329 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 4: called the twenty seven g Agreement, and seemed like this 330 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 4: historic moment, this historic win in the immediate aftermath of that, 331 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 4: as opposed to in moments where you have sheriff saying 332 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 4: we're not going to enforce the lockdown order and essentially, 333 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 4: besides some reporters reporting on it, nothing happens. Instead, what 334 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 4: happened is that within a few months of this sheriff 335 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 4: ending the twenty seven g Agreement, the federal government comes 336 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 4: in and issues pretty massive ice raids through the county 337 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 4: and actually ends up locking up over one hundred different people, 338 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 4: many of whom got deported. 339 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 3: Pretty soon after that, you had a. 340 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 4: Number of other sheriffs in the state, including this one 341 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 4: constitutional sheriff who also had aligned with another large anti 342 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 4: immigrant network called the Federation for American Immigration Reform, essentially 343 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 4: organizing in the state for the state to push back 344 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 4: and push an entire state wide mandate that all sheriffs 345 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 4: comply with ICE. So that's not really an uplifting story. 346 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, actually not quite. 347 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 4: I think what it demonstrates, in a tough way, is 348 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 4: more about this kind of like when sheriffs claim all 349 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 4: of this autonomy at the local level, which they seem 350 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 4: to actually in many cases be able to practice kind 351 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 4: of quite well, you know, when they say they want 352 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 4: to enforce the state wide gutten restrictions or mask mandates. Again, 353 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 4: from what I understand, and I've been in touch with 354 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 4: some of the like leading constitutional lawyers who are trying 355 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 4: to look into it further. 356 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, almost nothing happens. But then if you have let's say, 357 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 3: a sheriff. 358 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 4: In this case, you know, not ending an agreement with ICE, 359 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 4: there's a pretty serious and significant backlash. There has also 360 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 4: though been you know, there was an amazing campaign to 361 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 4: eventually get sheriff, your former sheriff, your or PYO out 362 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 4: that took like a ton of organizing by immigrant rights 363 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 4: organizers in Arizona, and that was pretty incredible and sustained, 364 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 4: and there's been a lot of good stuff. 365 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:06,959 Speaker 3: Written about it. 366 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 4: So it's not it's not not the case that people 367 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 4: have built campaigns and have been able to unseat their sheriff. 368 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's that's good to know, 369 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: because like, I much prefer the like slow disassembling of 370 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 2: this in a world in which they don't just get 371 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: full power and start, you know, going after people with 372 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 2: the wrong signs on their front yards, than any other 373 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 2: option here. It just it seems like it's one of 374 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: those situations where the deck is very much stacked in 375 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 2: their favor, right in part because of how long I 376 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 2: think this problem has been ignored, Like it's really just 377 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 2: now I'm so glad that y'all's podcast is out because 378 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 2: I still don't think there's nearly enough attention on like 379 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 2: what these sheriffs are doing, because this really is it's 380 00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 2: so fundamentally anti democratic in a way that is also 381 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 2: has a great deal of legitimacy in the eyes and 382 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 2: ears of at least a lot of the people living 383 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: in these areas, right, Like, this is not just some Yahoo, 384 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 2: declaring himself, you know, a militia. It's not like the 385 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 2: State of Jefferson movement saying like We're totally going to 386 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: secede from California. These are guys with real power. So 387 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 2: I guess kind of where I'd like to close by 388 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 2: is asking do you see a shift in rhetoric from 389 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: these people from like twenty twenty to twenty twenty four, like, 390 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: because I feel like right now the rhetoric is much 391 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 2: more like aggressively anti like the enemy within, whereas you know, 392 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty it was much more focused on gun 393 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 2: rights and going after migrants. But I think you would 394 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 2: have a better better sense of that than I do. 395 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 4: So one thing is that immediately following twenty twenty, there 396 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 4: was some effort on the part of CSPOA to start 397 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 4: to slightly distance themselves from the Oath Keepers. 398 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, CSPO the Oathkeepers. 399 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 4: I mean the former Sheriff mac that was the founder 400 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 4: of the CSPOA was on the board of the Oath Keepers, 401 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 4: and Stuart Rhodes, who's been charged with seditious conspiracy for 402 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 4: his role planning J six, has been working closely with 403 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 4: CSPOA for the entire time that CSPOA for the most 404 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 4: part has been around, so they were working really, really 405 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 4: really closely together. So there was a little bit of 406 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 4: a shift after j six where CSPOA tried to distance 407 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 4: themselves from the oath Keepers. But I would say that 408 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 4: the other thing that you touched on is also true. 409 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 4: As opposed to focusing so much on kind of nullification 410 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 4: of any sort of creating you know, Second Amendment sanctuaries 411 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 4: or those types of things, they've really leaned hard into 412 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 4: investigating election fraud and kind of stop this deal style rhetoric. 413 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: Oh right, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. 414 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 4: And they've really leaned hard, in a very frightening way 415 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 4: into more who are like really harsh and horrible anti 416 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 4: immigrant rhetoric. And so, you know, back literally at their 417 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 4: twenty twenty four spring CSPOA convening, they're talking about the 418 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 4: great Replacement theory. They're talking about doing every single thing 419 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 4: in their powers to make sure that there is not 420 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 4: election fraud. They're talking about, you know, making sure that 421 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 4: I don't want to use the terms here, but that 422 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 4: undocument people don't vote in the elections and those types 423 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 4: of things. And then what was really frightening in this 424 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 4: plan that I spoke about briefly in Florida that the 425 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 4: state director of CSPOA released is that they are actually 426 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 4: embracing more far right views overtly in that plan than 427 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 4: they have in any other time actually since they were formed. 428 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 4: So they're explicitly quoting. For any of your nerds out 429 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 4: here that follow this stuff, this guy Matthew Truhella, and 430 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 4: he openly advocated for political violence and was one of 431 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 4: the people who actually justified violence against abortion providers in 432 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 4: the nineteen nineties. They quote him numerous times when talking 433 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 4: about setting up citizen militias to actually essentially target election 434 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 4: clerks in the event that they are not happy with 435 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 4: how the elections turn out. Yeah, so there is a shift, 436 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 4: I would say, in like, in multiple directions that some 437 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 4: of which are very very much just in line with 438 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 4: Trump and the Trump campaign to some degree, and some 439 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 4: of which are already kind of, you know, plans for 440 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 4: a different type of insurgence at the local level, and 441 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 4: the event that things don't go in their. 442 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: Direction, yeah, I'm going to throw us to ads once more, 443 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: and then we will come back and kind of close 444 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 2: ourselves out. So everybody have an ad and we're back. 445 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 2: So quote, Yeah, just kind of in closing, what are 446 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 2: you kind of keeping your ear to the ground on 447 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 2: as we near election day? Like, what are kind of 448 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 2: your do you have any particular sort of red lines 449 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 2: that you're keeping an eye out for from these people. 450 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 4: I am looking closely at Florida and whether some of 451 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 4: the plans that they've actually laid out in Florida might happen. 452 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 4: I'm also keeping a close ear to battleground states where 453 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 4: it seems like a number of these militias are kind 454 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 4: of activated aligned with some sheriff's departments, and I want 455 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 4: to particularly see if there's any type of cases that 456 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 4: kind of show up in terms of either voter intimidation 457 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 4: or those types of things. And it's just been dawning 458 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 4: on me more and more that a number of the 459 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 4: people who are in the CSPA network are actually in 460 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 4: battleground states, and I just wonder to what degree that's 461 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 4: a coincidence or not. I think I'm just trying to 462 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 4: kind of get a sense of how also some of 463 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 4: the framing from these sheriffs continue to shift and whether 464 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 4: they actually become activated, whether they're polsees or citizen militias 465 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 4: that become kind of mobilized as they did to some 466 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 4: degree in twenty twenty. 467 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 2: Well, that's what I will be keeping an eye on too. 468 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much for coming on. Thank 469 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 2: you for putting together this podcast series. Everyone listened to 470 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 2: The Insurgents Sheriffs co produced by Political Researches, Soviets, Political 471 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 2: Research Associates and Quintero Productions. Again, that's The Insurgents Sheriffs. 472 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 2: You can find it wherever podcasts are found. Thank you 473 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: for coming on. Everybody check this out and hopefully we 474 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: will have a drop of the podcast and the Bastards 475 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 2: feed so people can listen in on that too. Thank 476 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 2: you so much, Chloe, Thank you so much for having me, 477 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 2: and thank you listeners. 478 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cools Media. 479 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 480 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: Coolzonmedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 481 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 482 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly 483 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.