WEBVTT - Ep 123: Anton Corbijn 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:03.320 So it's a really great shuth until the old man 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:06.440 he collapsed on the cross and that was really heavy 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.840 and at the ambulance in and they sort of arriving 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:12.680 at the Schnuffen. Yeah, it was really had coming to 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:14.000 that said with a cross and all that. 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.800 Evening, everyone, Welcome to Midnight Chats, the music interview podcast 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:22.919 for late night listening. 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.600 My name is Greg Cochran, I'm Stuart Stubbs and. 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:31.479 Stu Tonight's guest on the podcast is someone who has 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:36.479 had a distinguished career is putting it a little bit lightly? 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:37.919 Really, do you want to have a. 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.120 Go at trying to sum up our guests kind of 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.240 contribution in what you spoke to them about. 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.360 Yeah, there's a lot to get into with Anton Corbin 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:48.960 a bit different for us actually, not a musician, a 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:52.800 photographer and a filmmaker who has played such a huge 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:55.560 role in music since he started his career as a 0:00:55.560 --> 0:01:00.840 photographer in nineteen seventy nine. He's from Holland, the Netherlands. 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.200 Sorry it's from the Netherlands. He moved to London in 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:05.840 nineteen seventy nine started shooting for the Enemy. He ended 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.400 up taking some very famous photos of Joy Division in 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.520 bayswater Tube Station, and that put him on this path 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:16.440 of shooting legends after legend after legend within music. He 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:18.880 worked very closely with Depeche Mode and You Too. He 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:23.080 became creative director for their visual outputs. Anton's the guy 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.840 that shot the cover of the Joshua Tree by U two. 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:31.080 He then started directing music videos, including loads of Depeche modes. 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.800 He's the guy that made Enjoyed the Silence for Depeche Mode. 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.720 He made Heart Shaped Box Greg for Navana. 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:38.399 Yeah. 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:43.200 I mean it's like insanely iconic. 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.280 Anton Corbyn's work, and the great stories about Kirk Vain 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:47.440 in this by the way. 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:49.640 What he's done every time you think, oh, that would 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:51.200 be quite a good career. If it ended there, then 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.640 it's like another thing. He then started making films. He 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:58.080 made that incredible Joy Division biopic while the Ian Curtis 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:02.880 Barpik rather Control, starring Sam Riley. That then opened a 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.640 door for him to make a huge Hollywood picture called 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.840 The American with George Clooney, which we talk about ever 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.000 so slightly here. I could have spoken to this man 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.560 forever because I'm a big fan of all of his work. 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:16.639 I start off sort of gushing towards him at the beginning. 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:19.240 I'd like to apologize to the listeners and to Anton 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.800 for that. But the reason Anton was in town to speak, 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:25.400 we did this face to face. In the summer of 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:28.200 twenty twenty three. He was promoting a new documentary film 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:30.560 called Squaring the Triangle, which at this point you can 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.800 see on streaming. I know it was on Netflix and 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.040 is hopefully still there. It was on a plane I 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.000 was recently on as well. Greg little humble brag for 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.359 you there. Yes, it's called Squareen the Triangle, and it's 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.520 about a legendary nineteen seventies artwork design company called Hypnosis. 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.399 They are the company that created some of the most 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:52.640 ridiculous album covers of the seventies, worked very closely with 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.880 Pink Floyd. Dark Side of the Moon is one of theirs. 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:57.960 The Man on Fire on Wish You Were Here that 0:02:58.000 --> 0:02:59.840 was one of that. It's a really great documentary all 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:03.880 the stories behind these really elaborate, ridiculous images that ended 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:06.440 up on album sleeves for people in the seventies at 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:10.880 a time when essentially people were just spending obscene amounts 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.639 of money on their album art. That's how I managed 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.320 to get Anton Corbyn to sit in a room with me. Basically, 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:20.440 he's a legend. He's an absolute legend in the visual 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.839 side of music from seventy nine onwards. He's been there 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:25.519 for the whole thing. 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.960 And also this is something a little bit different for us, 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.840 as you said, like Anton's not a musician, but somebody's 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:37.880 like legendary contribution to music culture for decades. I wondered 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.960 what He's quite softly spoken, and it's very like down 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:43.080 to earth and when he delivers a story, he's just 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:45.960 like even about whoever it might be you two or 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.040 the Rowling Stones, he sort of does it in his 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.960 very quiet, kind of grounded way. I wanted to ask 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.680 if he was if he was what you were expecting. 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:58.320 It's that very you know, strong Dutch accent. I think 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.200 it's very calming, and it makes him so modest. I 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.480 think he seems like a very modest guy. And you 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.200 know what I took away from meeting Anton Corvin. When 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:09.400 I'm sixty eight years old, if I look half as 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:12.280 good as Anton Corvin, I will be very pleased, very 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:16.160 stylishly dressed. As if I've not made it clear already, 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:23.359 I liked him, like or love love. This is Anton Corbyn, 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.480 my number one here tonight on Midnight Chat. 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:33.839 I hope you enjoy it. Thank you for coming onto 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:36.599 the podcast my pleasure. I'm a big fan of yours 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.599 and actually your work was there right at the start 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:43.160 of my career, actually because when I first left university, 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.240 my first job was an enemy magazine. Really yeah, and 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:51.480 it was this was two thousand and five, which I 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.520 was there for two years. If I'm not mistaken, I 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:56.480 don't think you would photograph him for them at the 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.520 time I was there. I think you'd left long before, 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.400 in eighty five, okay, right, yeah, we missed. We just 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:03.080 missed each other. 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:04.080 Yeah years. 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:08.200 Yeah. But when I got that job, I worked on 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.440 the photo desk. I was the junior photo researcher, and 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.320 I had no experience in it, and I didn't I 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:18.560 didn't necessarily even have a huge sort of love for photography, 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.200 I guess at that point. But working there, they had 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.880 this huge archive, this photo archive, so my days would 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.400 be spent in there looking at lots of old prints, 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:31.840 including lots of your old Prince. And subsequently, since then 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.919 I started my own magazine and photography has been a 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:40.240 huge part of that original photography. So, yeah, you were 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.160 there from the very Your name was a name that 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.320 I sort of became very familiar with very quickly at Enemy. 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:48.200 So you left in eighty. 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:53.200 Five, Yeah, and I saw the enemy, did you about 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:54.000 five years later? 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:55.680 Okay? What did you see them? 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:57.080 Over? Right? 0:05:57.360 --> 0:05:57.560 Right? 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.320 Well, the rights because I had to write some of 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:05.080 my pictures that they had signed that at the time, 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:07.440 and they're going to put on book out there, some 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:14.120 cheap rock photography book, and I really didn't want to 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:18.240 be part of that, and they went ahead anyway, and 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.679 I show them and they settled and I was allowed 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:23.919 to take all my pictures out of the files. So 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.640 obviously I missed a fuel because you found. 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:30.599 Some Maybe I misremendering this. Maybe the conversation would always 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.440 be it's a shame we don't have Anton's pictures. 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:35.200 That would be a better conversation. 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.400 I remember that your your name was used a lot 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.760 though we you know your name was. That was how 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.280 I was introduced to your work and your photos. So 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:46.800 when did you start there? And did you start there 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:48.240 as soon as you arrived in London? 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:53.360 Yes, I mean what happened, wasn't In early seventy nine, 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.760 I went to the enemy with some bunch of pictures 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.160 to show to the then editor Neil Spencer, and I 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:04.400 showed them and he was really entojestic and he wanted 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.160 to publish a couple just for the sake of it. 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:08.080 And I said, well, if I if I come to 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.280 live in England, would you give me some work and 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.080 he said sure sure, So on that fake promise, I 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.440 moved to England and then half you later knocked on 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:20.000 the door and said here I am, are you And 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:21.800 I said, well, you know you said you would give 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:23.800 me some work. I did this picure. Oh yeah, yeah. 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.040 So he took me around to the big room where 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.840 all everybody was working, with piles of stuff on people's desk. 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:32.800 They're all typing, and he said, this is Anton and 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.200 he's a great photograph from the Netherlands. Anybody got some 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:37.880 work for him? And you heard. So they were silent 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.880 and people looking up from above whatever was on the desk, 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:47.560 and one guy started to sing, I hate the fucking 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.320 Dutch they're living in Oliver Clock. There was some punk 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:53.480 singer that I was unaware of, so I took it 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:57.240 personal and then slowly people started the type again and 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.840 that was it. But there's no introductions in they couldn't 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:04.800 get us, but one guy, Tony Stewart, he called me 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:06.840 a week later. He said, Oh, there's a there's a 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:12.360 gig at the Marquee, Bill Haley, can you photograph that? 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:14.960 So it was sprinted like a poster stamp in the Enemy. 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.200 But that was my first commissioned work. And then some 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:21.160 photographer got ill who was supposed to photograph Joe Jackson 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:25.840 as a feature, and then they called me last minute 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:27.400 and I went and Joe liked my work, and the 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.360 Enemy liked my work, and suddenly I was doing covers 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:32.600 for the enemy, and I worked for Joe for a 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:36.120 bit and it was a great time. 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.000 What was your first So, what was your first cover 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:40.720 for the Enemy? Was that Joe Jackson shop? 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:44.160 No, it was a story by Nick and on rockabilly, 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.400 So it was rockabilly kids in a club, okay. And 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.240 then the second one was the week after was a selector. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.040 So this is this is seventy nine, when you when 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:55.360 you sort of arrive in the UK. 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.480 Yeah, October seventy nine, and the first cover was in 0:08:58.559 --> 0:08:59.400 January eighteen. 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:01.560 I've heard story from you, I think on an old 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:06.400 film talking about when you got here. Maybe like within 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.280 two weeks you went to see Joy Division and you 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:11.960 introduced yourself to them backstage? 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:12.600 Correct? 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.040 And where was that? Where was that show where you 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:16.840 saw them? 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:19.400 I think it was The Rainbow, which. 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:20.080 Is in Finsbury Park. 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:21.720 Yeah, yeah, I don't think it exists anymore. 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.160 No, it's like a big sort of church now. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.720 it was the Rainbow, the venue that had a retracting roof. 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.320 Did it have a roof that? Maybe that was in 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:32.920 the sixties, though I heard a rumor that it was 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:36.040 it had a roof that could come off to make 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:36.800 it an outside of. 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.720 It, right, Okay, I don't well anyway, I arrived in 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.320 October and I saw Joy Division early November or they 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:44.280 wouldn't have the roof off. 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.920 Did you come here because of Joid? Like Joy Division 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.439 was a Was that part of the reason you came 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:53.720 here because you loved that band? 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.320 Yeah? I lost the music and I wanted to be 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.440 closer to where that kind of music came from. And 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.400 I'd been for a Dutch magazine or I've been a 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:07.240 few times to England to photograph for them, and I 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.319 always lost my pictures so much when I the ones 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:11.839 I took in England. More than the ones I took 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.120 in Holland, so I felt that it was quite a 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.680 natural kind of environment for me to shoot in. And 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.400 then when ann Pleasures came out at all, I just 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.920 have to go there because it's so fantastic what happens there. 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.080 I wanted to be part of it. I don't want 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.720 to wait till people get well known and then come 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:33.800 to Holland. So that they were the main motivators to 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.480 go there. And I sold myself as an important photographer 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:39.760 in the Netherlands, and they hadn't toured the Netherlands yet, 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:45.640 so I think Rob Breton said, Okay, I think you 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:48.760 should do it. And I had a basement flat in 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:52.120 Bayswater and the only tube station I knew was lancas 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:54.240 the Gate, so I asked them to come to Lancaster 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.760 Gate and being the only place I kind of knew, 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:02.080 and they came Sunday morning was very cold, and they 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.440 were standing there outside the tube station, shaking with a 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.880 cigarette in their hands and underdressed English boys, you know, 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.719 big cold but nothing underneathed kind of thing. And when 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:18.520 I cast generally because I was a smoker, he stood 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.040 outside the same same way. You know. It was in 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.280 the winter. He stood there trembling. I thought, well, that's 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:24.920 a good sign. 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:30.520 What was it like? You mentioned that when you when 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:32.560 you were still living in the Netherlands, but you'd come 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.880 here and photograph. You like the way those photos looked 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:37.600 more than the ones that you were taking back. Now, 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.000 what was it about them? Was it the light or 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.160 was it what you were taking photos of? No, the 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.520 light is the same as in Holland. Really it's overcast 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:47.400 most of the time. 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.560 No, it was I think partly me because I was 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:54.880 excited about being in England and being ware it happens, 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:04.080 and just I think the surroundings. I like people's yeah, 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.959 determination to get out of the council flats and make 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.920 something of their life. And they gave everything to the music, 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.000 and I at the time gave everything to photography. You 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.840 know that, I know fallback plan. 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:19.120 You know. 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.000 It was all or nothing for me, and I gave 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:23.920 photography everything I had and holand I lift for a 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:26.839 year in the Brottle and here I left six months 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:30.240 in a in a in a squad after I got 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:32.319 kicked out in Baigrod and I lived in Dlston the 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.640 squad so and I was but I was photographing Bowie, 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.400 you know that just went on. 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:40.959 We were always good at it. Did you always get 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:42.839 the sense that when I mean, how old were you 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:46.679 when you picked up a camera and seventeen and did 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.520 you did you just know you had an eye for it? 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.079 At no point in rubbish, I used to go a 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:53.920 camera because I was so shy and I didn't there 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.680 to go to a concert where I knew nobody because 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:00.400 I was just moved parents to a new city and 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.520 hadn't come to school yet. It was in school holiday, 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.720 and that means that you don't know anybody. And I 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.920 felt that if I carried a camera, you know, it 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.800 gave me something that I wouldn't have it out of it. 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:14.959 And this is my father's camera and I took a 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.640 few photographs on it then it was a daylight concert, 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:21.800 you know, and I sent them to a magazine just 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.600 because I didn't know what else to do, and I 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:30.480 was so obsessed by music in the music world, and 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:32.160 they published a few and I thought, oh, that's it. 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:33.360 That's what I'm going to do for the rest of 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.640 my life. We're going to take pictures of bands. And 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.600 of course, the first year I was at school and 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:43.160 I photographed my father's camera in the provinces of where 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:46.320 I was living, and nobody purposed any of the pictures. 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.160 And then the next school holiday I worked in factories 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.520 to earn my own camera. And then I saying, you know, 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.240 I tried to photograph and nobody purposed any of the pictures. 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:59.680 But at the end of the second year, the enemy 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.959 of all and if you're like my bigs, you're small 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.840 but thought that says, you know. And then I tried 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.600 to get into the art academy and nobody would have me. 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.760 I tried to do three different ones in Holland, so 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:14.920 I'm self taught. 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.439 Really, I'm surprised to hear in a way that you're 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:23.320 that you're shy, because that action of moving to a 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.680 different country is quite bold. And then when you get 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:31.200 there to go to a gig of Joy and of 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.760 joy the vision who are quite an intimidating bunch, or 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.240 they certainly seen that from their music and their look 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.640 and everything. And then to get backstage and say can 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.720 I take your photos? That's all of that sort of 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:48.920 stuff is quite bold. Yes, it is I confidence stuff. 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.400 I think the camera helped me, you know, it sort 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:56.840 of pushed me forward and moved England. I went with 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:01.520 my then girlfriend towards far better to arrange things than 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.360 I was. She she she found a fled she found 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:09.840 it and the other so alone, I couldn't have done it. 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.600 But yeah, I was driven by something to make contact 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:18.120 with people and photograph them. Those you know, I did 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:20.360 everything to be able to photograph people. 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.680 I think so around that time, I mean, it's sort 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:27.000 of it's the very end of the it's the very 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.800 end of the seventies. So Hypnosis, who the new film 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.840 is about. I guess it's kind of winding down, isn't it. 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:37.920 That ends in a two two, doesn't it? But were 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:43.040 you so you wouldn't necessarily cross paths or worked with 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.560 them because you're also just starting out and they were 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.760 at that point you know, the kings of graphic design 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.560 and album artwork. But were you aware? Were you aware 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:57.320 of that then? Did you did? Was that? Because Hypnosis 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.440 is actually to me, I saw the film the other week, 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.120 by the way, and enjoyed it. Even to me, it's 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.480 like a name that I sort of sort of half 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.600 know now but didn't really know. But back then, did 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.160 people know it? Then? The photographers know it, creatives know 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:13.280 what Hypnosis were what they were doing. 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.640 I'm sure that everybody knew because in that world at 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.119 least because there's a lot of books out on Hypnosis. 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.440 You know, they did this series of books called Album 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.160 Cover Album, which there's a lot of their stuff in it, 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:29.120 and they insignated that. I mean, they were very It 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.560 was bo I think was very clever in his in 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:38.600 his reeling and dealing, you know, but I wasn't professional proper, 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.520 you know, so I would never be hired by Hypnosis 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.160 to photograph or anything. And I didn't think of that either, 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:46.240 you know. I wanted to be published in the enemy 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.040 those for me the highest good, and then records leaves 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.080 game secondary and you didn't even think about exhibitions. 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:55.840 And one of the things that I really loved about 0:16:55.840 --> 0:17:01.440 the film is this sort of time span, this seventies 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:06.280 sort of decade really where the rock industry was completely 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:08.960 ridiculous and there was so much money and there was 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:11.520 so much excess, and that story that they say in 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.720 the film about the statue that they put on the 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.720 top of Everest McCartney for poor McCartney for the Wings 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.560 greatest hits, which they could have probably done anywhere, but 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:22.760 they you know, it was a time of excess, So 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.639 they did it there because somebody, I think Paul McCartney 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.200 even said we should put it on Everest. Are you interested 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.240 in that well, because I've always felt with your photos 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.560 and your work that it's all quite understated and I 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.600 can't imagine you shooting those sort of covers that Hypnosis 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:42.320 were doing, and it's much more sort of simple for you. 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:43.359 Is that fair? 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:48.879 Yes, totally. I didn't dream of these things. I'm a 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.200 very hands on kind of guy, so I would always 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:55.840 myself and I was shooting black and white. I didn't 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.000 have an assistant till I did the Joshua Tree I 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:07.240 think that when that started. So yeah, I did everything myself, photographed, myself, 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:11.399 made the point, myself developed my film, sprinted my photographs, 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.000 dropped them off at the enemy or whatever. You know. 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:20.280 It was a different times. I I was also from 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.560 a generation of the bunk and a Postponk generation, not 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.160 off the Pink Floyd generation. 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:30.960 I mean in terms of that side of the music 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:34.359 industry that you walked into. I guess starting with that 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.280 meeting with Joy Division and then all the enemy stuff, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.359 what do you remember from the music business at that 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:42.800 At that point, I was born in eighty two. I 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:44.760 think for my generation, one of the reasons we think 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.720 that the past was better than now isn't necessarily the 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:51.720 music itself, although obviously some of that is incredible. It's 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.120 the way things worked and the fact that you could 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.600 walk up to Joy Division and say can I take 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:58.400 some photos and they would say yes, and you didn't 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.760 have to go through chats and labels and lots of people. 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.960 I suppose that's the punk right, But was it was 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.840 it all like that? Was it as easy as I 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:10.919 think as I would like to think and sort of 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:12.399 regret missing out on. 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.760 I like to think it was easier. Yes, I think 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:20.560 there was less of an organization protecting everybody, and now 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:25.520 it's overprotected and everything has to be approved and everything, 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:30.440 you know. I think what happens now is a lot 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:32.720 of people who are young then and older now, and 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.840 they're competing to kids who are fifteen or sixteen and 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:43.760 looking so young, so that that's difficult to not be retouched, 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:50.480 you know, in the photographs, and complete control is the 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:54.160 whole idea of them. And as a PHOTOGRAPHERY, you also 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.720 want complete control over your work. So that's a flash point. 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:00.240 You mentioned that you for a long time to have 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.280 an assistant your travel, just you and your camera, which 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.920 I think I imagine was part of the appeal for lots 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.480 of people that they knew you were like an unfussy guy, 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:10.680 especially for the punks. 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.920 Yeah, I think it's different if you appeal of somebody's 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:18.840 doorstep on your own other than three assistants and lights, 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:21.400 you know, it must be different. It must be more invasive. 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:26.920 I think a big group and I never filled home 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:30.240 with lighting things and all that stuff. 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.359 Yeah, do you ever have rules that you put in 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.000 place to the people you're shooting. The reason I say 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.520 that is because I heard a story. He's obviously this 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:41.320 is a very wildly different style photographer to you, But 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.720 I heard this story that David Bailey has a rule 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:48.080 that when he shoots someone, whoever it is, whether it's 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:50.760 the queen or you know, a man in the street, 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:53.920 he insists that they come completely alone, and they can't. 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:56.440 They're not allowed to bring their agent or their manager 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.000 or a pr or anyone. And if they do turn 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:00.800 up with somebody else, then I just sent away and 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:03.719 the shoe doesn't happen. And that's his sort of terms. 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:08.880 Well, obviously I tell people it's not a circus act, 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:12.240 you know, when I'm photographing people, so I don't really 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:16.119 enjoy an audience. But I've never said you can't bring 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:20.240