Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.
Speaker 1: On last week's episode, I picked up a phrase from
Speaker 1: my friend Luise Miranda that I just love. He said,
Speaker 1: as I get older, I get bolder. I know exactly
Speaker 1: what he means. It's something I see not only in myself,
Speaker 1: but in many of the people that I admire, especially
Speaker 1: women of a certain age. You are in the public
Speaker 1: eye now, whether that means not holding back with your opinions,
Speaker 1: or saying no to the things you don't want to do,
Speaker 1: or the people who don't want to see, or saying
Speaker 1: yes to the things you've always wanted to do but
Speaker 1: either we're afraid to try, or didn't have time, you
Speaker 1: name it. These women are getting bolder as they get older.
Speaker 1: And today we're going to hear from three such incredible man. Later,
Speaker 1: I'll be talking to my friends U S. Senator Mazie
Speaker 1: Herono from Hawaii and actor Glenda Jackson, who, between winning
Speaker 1: two Academy Awards and a Tony Award, and I think
Speaker 1: a couple of Emmy's as well, served in the British
Speaker 1: Parliament for twenty three years. But first I'm talking to
Speaker 1: the one and only Congresswoman Maxine Waters. I've been a
Speaker 1: big fan of Maxine Waters since I first learned about her,
Speaker 1: and it's not hard to see why. Maxine has served
Speaker 1: as a Member of Congress for South Los Angeles for
Speaker 1: over thirty years, and over that time, she's earned a
Speaker 1: reputation as a stalwart champion for progressive values who speaks
Speaker 1: her mind and doesn't suffer fools. She emerged as one
Speaker 1: of the fiercest, most vocal critics of the last president
Speaker 1: aential administration, and she has never stopped fighting for what
Speaker 1: she believes in. In fact, she became an Internet celebrity
Speaker 1: when she refused to let a certain former Secretary of
Speaker 1: the Treasury run out the clock during a hearing she
Speaker 1: was chairing. She sure did reclaim her time, and she's
Speaker 1: doing all of this at the age of eighty three now.
Speaker 1: Before going into politics, Maxine was active in community organizing
Speaker 1: the head Start program. She served on the board of
Speaker 1: the Miss Foundation. She's been a mentor and inspiration to
Speaker 1: countless people over the years. I always get a kick
Speaker 1: out of talking with Maxine Waters, and I was so
Speaker 1: delighted she had time to be on the podcast. Hello
Speaker 1: Maxine Hello, how are you doing? Hell, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: And obviously we're going to talk about your long career
Speaker 1: in public service and politics. But before we get to that,
Speaker 1: I'd like our listeners to know more about where it
Speaker 1: all started. I know you grew up in St. Louis
Speaker 1: in a pretty busy household. I think you were the
Speaker 1: fifth of thirteen children, right, yeah, I was, actually I
Speaker 1: think the boy. Well, I think that's where you must
Speaker 1: have figured out that you had a talent for organizing.
Speaker 1: How would you describe, you know, what you wanted to
Speaker 1: be when you were a little girl growing up in
Speaker 1: that big family in St. Louis, Hillary, As I think
Speaker 1: back on it, we were all made to be very
Speaker 1: independent at a very early age. We had to be
Speaker 1: because my mother, who had so many, you know, children,
Speaker 1: certainly could not pay attention to all of us, and
Speaker 1: so we had to learn how to do for ourselves.
Speaker 1: But I also had wonderful school teachers and saying Lewis,
Speaker 1: I was an athlete. I ran track, I played volleyball,
Speaker 1: I played basketball, and I became a very good swimmer.
Speaker 1: And this was all because the neighborhood. You got to
Speaker 1: do things at your your community center, but one of
Speaker 1: the stories that I've told often is this part of
Speaker 1: the time, we were unwelfare and the social workers would
Speaker 1: come to your home to review whether or not you
Speaker 1: were in compliance with the rules of you know, getting
Speaker 1: the benefits. And so they were always dressed very nicely. Uh.
Speaker 1: They had lots of authority. And I thought to myself,
Speaker 1: that's what I want to be. And um, I worked
Speaker 1: when I was very young. When I was about thirteen,
Speaker 1: I had a job in a restaurant, Thompson's Restaurant, and
Speaker 1: it was not integrated, and I cleaned tables and we
Speaker 1: had to eat our food in the basement because they
Speaker 1: wouldn't allow you to eat, you know, in the restaurant.
Speaker 1: But that's what I used to buy my clothing to
Speaker 1: go back to school in September, and so I tried
Speaker 1: to dress well, you know, look good. Uh, And I
Speaker 1: earned the money to do pretty well with that. And
Speaker 1: that's kind of generally you know, my background. You know, however,
Speaker 1: you put it together. You learned how to dress really well, Maxine.
Speaker 1: I mean that is one of the things that I
Speaker 1: have admired for many many years. You know, you really
Speaker 1: know how to put it together. So you went from
Speaker 1: admiring those social workers to thinking maybe about politics. Did
Speaker 1: becoming a congresswoman ever cross your mind? Politics began to
Speaker 1: cross my mind early. I was chosen, uh to do speeches,
Speaker 1: you know, And I was taken once to a big
Speaker 1: event by a teacher in another city where I represented
Speaker 1: my school. Uh, And then I was encouraged to do speaking,
Speaker 1: and um, I began you know, to think about in
Speaker 1: high school various kinds of activities that provided leadership opportunities.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what led me to believe that
Speaker 1: perhaps I could do something of service. But it really
Speaker 1: didn't happen until I was married at a very young age,
Speaker 1: and I got involved with the head Start program. The
Speaker 1: War on Hobby was a magnificent thing that happened in
Speaker 1: this country, and it created all of these programs. And
Speaker 1: Headstart was so attractive. It was going to offer to
Speaker 1: our little children and opportunity for early childhood education, which
Speaker 1: of course the average working family or poor families certainly
Speaker 1: could not afford. And I went to work for a
Speaker 1: head Start as an assistant teacher. But head Start was
Speaker 1: a real beginning for me. I too was learning, I
Speaker 1: was learning a lot about myself. We had these interactive
Speaker 1: programs where the staffs dealt with each other, helping each
Speaker 1: other to understand what we cared about and basically what
Speaker 1: was our philosophy in life. And it was out of
Speaker 1: head Start that I really became me and I got
Speaker 1: involved with the community, started to volunteer in campaigns, learned
Speaker 1: how to you know, do everything from design brochures to
Speaker 1: raise a little money, to organize get out the boat efforts, whatever.
Speaker 1: And that was what catapulted me into running for office.
Speaker 1: I love the connection between head Start and you getting
Speaker 1: a start. I really love that, Maxine. And then you
Speaker 1: ran for um a state assemblywoman position, right to be
Speaker 1: in the UH California Assembly, and that was I think
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six. Is that about right? That's right? And
Speaker 1: you know you you got elected off you went to
Speaker 1: UH Sacramento. Um, what was that initial experience like for
Speaker 1: you showing up as a representative of your constituents in
Speaker 1: the state capital. Well, you know, there were several things
Speaker 1: going on when I ran. It was really at the
Speaker 1: height of the women's movement. And so when I was
Speaker 1: in the Assembly, I went there without having had any
Speaker 1: formalized experience as a legislator. So I just tried a
Speaker 1: lot of things. The first thing I tried was this,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna laugh at this. We were all called assemblyman,
Speaker 1: and I thought were men and so and so I
Speaker 1: decided I was going to change it. And so little
Speaker 1: did I know that the men really were absolutely insulting
Speaker 1: about the idea that this young woman was going to
Speaker 1: come in and change the way that people may be
Speaker 1: referred to. And so I got on the floor, I
Speaker 1: presented my bill, and they came after me. But did
Speaker 1: they come after me? And of course I lost, But
Speaker 1: later on coming behind me, some of the women were
Speaker 1: able to get it changed to assembly member based on
Speaker 1: what I started. Well, I mean, you have started a
Speaker 1: lot throughout your entire history. You know, you're now one
Speaker 1: of the longest serving women in the House, and you
Speaker 1: have many more women colleagues than you had when you started,
Speaker 1: or that you had when you were back in state
Speaker 1: government in California. So how has the world of politics
Speaker 1: changed from your beginning work, and especially how has it
Speaker 1: changed for women's Well, uh, and it certainly has changed tremendously.
Speaker 1: One of the things that happened to me was Bella
Speaker 1: Abzug and Gloria Steinham and these women I got connected to.
Speaker 1: We had a big conference uh in Houston, Texas, where
Speaker 1: we were going to help Jimmy Carter understand how he
Speaker 1: could include women in his administration and the kinds of
Speaker 1: things that we cared about. Well, the conference was fantastic,
Speaker 1: but Jimmy Carter didn't take too kindly to us, and
Speaker 1: he and Bella Abzug kind of you know, didn't hit
Speaker 1: it off too well, and so they fired Bella and
Speaker 1: we all quit. And so we all quit. But of
Speaker 1: course I was asked to serve on the board of
Speaker 1: the MESS Foundation, and that was a tremendous experience. We
Speaker 1: had women who sent us unsolicited proposals. That's why I
Speaker 1: learned so much about what we could do about violence
Speaker 1: against women, what we could do about opening up opportunities
Speaker 1: for women to see themselves in non traditional jobs. That's
Speaker 1: when I learned about women who were suffering not only
Speaker 1: from oftentimes you know, violence and but lack of basic resources.
Speaker 1: And so I took many of those unsolicited proposals while
Speaker 1: I was serving on the MISS Foundation board, and I
Speaker 1: tried to turn them into something real. As a legislator
Speaker 1: now in Sacramento, where I could basically be responsible for
Speaker 1: changing public policy. And I want you to know that
Speaker 1: back then, of course I learned and knew a lot
Speaker 1: about discrimination, and I knew a lot about racism, but
Speaker 1: I didn't really to stand the depth of it because
Speaker 1: it had not been taught in our schools. Our parents
Speaker 1: never really talked about it. Every now and then you
Speaker 1: could get a story about some experience that they had had,
Speaker 1: uh their grandparents had had when there was a hanging
Speaker 1: somewhere in the South where they were, where there was
Speaker 1: a burning. And then I got involved with a local
Speaker 1: group here who was getting involved with the civil rights
Speaker 1: movement in l A. It was a local in w
Speaker 1: t P and some ministers that I got involved with,
Speaker 1: and that's what got me more involved in the civil
Speaker 1: rights movement. That got you going, and you haven't stopped yet,
Speaker 1: which I loved about you. So eventually you decided to
Speaker 1: run for Congress. What year was that, Well, let me
Speaker 1: tell you. Augustus Hawkins was the Congressman of the area
Speaker 1: and he had decided to retire, And when I decided
Speaker 1: I wanted to run and he was retiring, asked him
Speaker 1: to support me. Congressman Hawkins was legendary that's why he
Speaker 1: was one of the most effective members of Congress for
Speaker 1: his time. And the fact that he was an African
Speaker 1: American who ascended the ranks within the House of Representatives
Speaker 1: was incredibly impressive. And describe where your district is in
Speaker 1: l A. Because it's a very important area. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: let me tell you. At that time the district was
Speaker 1: was different. Even though they had a substantial black population,
Speaker 1: we had smaller towns that were basically whited. And I
Speaker 1: can remember a few things about that campaign and how
Speaker 1: we decided to try and appeal to the whites in
Speaker 1: the district, and so even though we didn't get all
Speaker 1: of that support, we certainly did have enough of it
Speaker 1: in order to be successful in the way Gus Hawkins was,
Speaker 1: but he had done a lot. That was a day
Speaker 1: when we had really more organized efforts that we have today.
Speaker 1: That we had a group of women, welfare rights women
Speaker 1: who were organized and they understood, you know, how to
Speaker 1: work with government and they understood how to be advocates.
Speaker 1: The women and that group were very inspiring to me. Also,
Speaker 1: they spoke up and they spoke out, and I could
Speaker 1: see them today just as clearly as if they were
Speaker 1: still with us. Most of them have passed on, John
Speaker 1: and May Tillman, Mary Henry. These were strong women, and
Speaker 1: they not only were advocates and welfare rights. We had
Speaker 1: one woman who went to the school board regularly and
Speaker 1: if they did not pay attention to her, she would
Speaker 1: not leave. And she was advocating but the children and
Speaker 1: senior citizens, and even with housing. But these women, they
Speaker 1: opened the doors for a lot of opportunities, and they
Speaker 1: also made a real difference at the local, state and
Speaker 1: federal level the changing laws and regulations. Well, I want
Speaker 1: a fast forward, Maxcine, because you know, right now it
Speaker 1: seems like a very difficult time in Congress, and we
Speaker 1: have seen sadly both the Voting Rights Bill and Build
Speaker 1: Back Better fail and every day House Republicans seem to
Speaker 1: be drifting further and further into extremism. How does this
Speaker 1: moment compare to others you've experienced over you know, your
Speaker 1: long and storied career. Hillary, It's a terrible time in
Speaker 1: the Congress of the United States of America. I am
Speaker 1: so offended about what has happened and what is happening
Speaker 1: to us now. I am so outraged about the lack
Speaker 1: of respect for the Constitution, a lack of respect for
Speaker 1: this democracy, a lack of what it means to be
Speaker 1: a public servant working for the people. It is awful,
Speaker 1: you know, Maxine. Something has happened to the people that
Speaker 1: you and I served with. Why are so few of
Speaker 1: the people actually in the Congress, both the House and
Speaker 1: the Senate willing to stand up and say we cannot
Speaker 1: go along with the big lie, the big steel, the
Speaker 1: storming of the capital on January six? Do you think
Speaker 1: we can ever get back to what should be the
Speaker 1: norms of behavior and and working. Have to be a
Speaker 1: person of optimism, no matter what, because you know, the
Speaker 1: idea that we would have to in to tolerate something
Speaker 1: like a Trump, you know, in this country without bringing
Speaker 1: making him accountable for the harm that he has called
Speaker 1: and continues calls, it is not something I can live with. So, yes,
Speaker 1: we're in this time, and we're in this space where
Speaker 1: people who are sitting in the House of Representatives for sure,
Speaker 1: who belonged to Q and An who supports the Proud Boys,
Speaker 1: the oath Keepers, and still the KKK right in the House.
Speaker 1: They're sitting there and they have demonstrated whom they are.
Speaker 1: But I think that you know, the people are seeing
Speaker 1: this and wondering how could this be? And I think
Speaker 1: that the people's anger about this will reveal itself even
Speaker 1: as early in the two primaries. We're taking a quick break.
Speaker 1: Stay with us. You know, you and I are women
Speaker 1: of a certain age, and I think it's pretty tremendous
Speaker 1: that you just keep going from strength to strength. I mean,
Speaker 1: do you feel any different? Do you feel like people
Speaker 1: treat you any differently? Now that you know you're older
Speaker 1: than you were when you first ran for office and
Speaker 1: have served all these years. Yeah, there's more talk about age,
Speaker 1: and some of our younger people, you know, talk about age,
Speaker 1: et cetera. But I want to tell you, when I
Speaker 1: want you walk, you walk like this, shoulders up and
Speaker 1: you walk with pride and dignity. Now, young people want
Speaker 1: them to take a look at that, because we're women
Speaker 1: of age. We're mature women, we've matured, and we're not
Speaker 1: walking like this. We're we're not all that, We're not
Speaker 1: all sad and what that you and so just watch us,
Speaker 1: young people, just watch us, and hope. Before we have
Speaker 1: to wrap up, I want to ask you for some advice.
Speaker 1: We've both been in and out of politics at the
Speaker 1: highest level. We've both been in campaigns. We're very familiar
Speaker 1: with all of the challenges and stereotypes facing women in
Speaker 1: leadership positions. What advice do you give to young women,
Speaker 1: even girls who want to know whether they should get
Speaker 1: into public life, you know, maybe even run for office. Well,
Speaker 1: I encourage those who are interested to do it, to
Speaker 1: run for office. And then I talk about as much
Speaker 1: as I can what I think it takes uh to
Speaker 1: be a good elected official, and you know, examining the
Speaker 1: reason you want to do it. This is about where
Speaker 1: are you coming from philosophically, who are you? Have you
Speaker 1: come to grips with whom you are and what you
Speaker 1: really care about and having a philosophy about life. And
Speaker 1: then I think if you do, then you can do
Speaker 1: almost anything because you're not going to be pulled in
Speaker 1: nine and nine different directions. You have a clarity of
Speaker 1: purpose and a clarity of understanding what you care about.
Speaker 1: So I talk a lot about getting in touch with itself.
Speaker 1: That is such great advice, Maxine. I mean, that's great
Speaker 1: advice for anybody thinking about doing anything. You know, to
Speaker 1: thine own self be true. But that requires you gotta
Speaker 1: know who yourself is and why you are doing what
Speaker 1: you're doing. I'll tell you, Maxine Waters, I am so
Speaker 1: grateful for our friendship all that we have been able
Speaker 1: to experience together. And I'm so appreciative that you took
Speaker 1: your time out if you're incredibly busy schedule to be
Speaker 1: on this podcast, because I think your words are going
Speaker 1: to mean so much to so many. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: for inviting me. You know I've always loved and supported you,
Speaker 1: and I think you are perhaps one of the most
Speaker 1: ready leaders that ever approached running for president of the
Speaker 1: United States, and you should have been You should have
Speaker 1: been elected. But whatever you want to do, I support you,
Speaker 1: and I want you to know that you and I
Speaker 1: have just begun to mature. We've got a lot left
Speaker 1: in us. Amen, Sister Amen, keep your eye on Congresswoman
Speaker 1: Maxine Waters, because she sure does have a lot left
Speaker 1: in her. Our next guest will be familiar to fans
Speaker 1: of great actors and members of parliament alike. Glenda Jackson
Speaker 1: was born in Liverpool in nineteen thirty six. She began
Speaker 1: acting in her teens and by the nineteen seventies achieved
Speaker 1: the rare distinction of winning two Academy Awards for Best Actress,
Speaker 1: not to mention two Emmy Awards for her iconic portrayal
Speaker 1: of Queen Elizabeth on television. In nine seventy eight, Glenda
Speaker 1: was bestowed with the highest honor in the United Kingdom
Speaker 1: for contributions to the Arts and Sciences, the Most Excellent
Speaker 1: Order of the British Empire. But then in too she
Speaker 1: took an abrupt break from acting to actually run for
Speaker 1: a seat in Parliament, and she was elected to the
Speaker 1: House of Commons as a member of the Labor Party
Speaker 1: and stayed in office for the next twenty three years.
Speaker 1: Now at that point, after conquering the heights of two
Speaker 1: no different fields, they have some connections. What do they say,
Speaker 1: you know, being in politics in Washington is uh, you know,
Speaker 1: theater for ugly people. I don't know, something like that.
Speaker 1: Most people would welcome the chance to head into retirement,
Speaker 1: but not Glenda. Instead, she decided to return to the stage. Now,
Speaker 1: just a few years ago, before the pandemic, I had
Speaker 1: the immense pleasure of seeing her on Broadway in two
Speaker 1: remarkable performances in Three Tall Women, for which she won
Speaker 1: a Tony and and in the title role in Shakespeare's
Speaker 1: King Lear which she took on at the tender age
Speaker 1: of eighty two. I cannot tell you how thrilled I
Speaker 1: was when she agreed to speak with me for this podcast. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing this. I'm thrilled to
Speaker 1: be talking to you. Well, it's a privilege to see
Speaker 1: you and to be able to speak to you. You know,
Speaker 1: I was thinking back, um, when preparing to talk with you,
Speaker 1: to the first time I knew of you, which was
Speaker 1: when I saw Women in Love. Well, those years ago.
Speaker 1: I just just graduated from college. I had read the book.
Speaker 1: I really was interested in going to the movie and
Speaker 1: just adored it good and yeah, and so you have
Speaker 1: been someone kind of in my consciousness for a very
Speaker 1: long time. But I know that you really had done
Speaker 1: so much before that before you won an Academy Award
Speaker 1: for that, and then you want another one a few
Speaker 1: years later for a touch of class. How did you
Speaker 1: decide that you wanted to become an actor? How do
Speaker 1: you make that decision? A friend of mine was a
Speaker 1: member of a local amateur dramatic society. I had left school,
Speaker 1: I was working in a local chemist shop. I felt
Speaker 1: there was more to life than I was experiencing. That
Speaker 1: possibly I may have had more to contribute. And someone
Speaker 1: said to me, you should go to a drama school,
Speaker 1: and I thought, well, okay, I'll try. So I did
Speaker 1: an audition for the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art for
Speaker 1: a scholarship, and they wrote back and said, if we'd
Speaker 1: had a scholarship, you would have got it, but we haven't,
Speaker 1: so you haven't. And fortunately the manager of my chemist
Speaker 1: shop wrote to my local authority. This was in the
Speaker 1: days when local authorities actually had the money to afford
Speaker 1: the kind of tunities felt all of us, and they
Speaker 1: gave me the scholarship. And so there I was at
Speaker 1: drama school. And and did you feel when you got
Speaker 1: to the Royal Academy that you belonged there or were
Speaker 1: you feeling a little bit awkward about whether this was
Speaker 1: right for you? No? No, I didn't feel that because
Speaker 1: it was a very varied intake of other students as well,
Speaker 1: from all over the country. And what year was that, Glenda?
Speaker 1: That must have been about sixty years ago. I mean
Speaker 1: I was nineteen, so more than that, because I'm older now,
Speaker 1: well we both are. What was your big break? So
Speaker 1: you go to drama school, A lot of people go
Speaker 1: to drama schools. Oh, yes, I had. I had years
Speaker 1: of unemployment. I don't think there's a job that I
Speaker 1: can't do, because I take any kind of job to
Speaker 1: to earn a living. I suppose the really big break
Speaker 1: was Women in Love. Um, I mean, I've done quite
Speaker 1: a bit of fear to work, but it was I
Speaker 1: think that film that was a big breakthrough. So you
Speaker 1: do your first major film and you get nominated for
Speaker 1: an Academy Award. What was that experience like when that
Speaker 1: came out, I was doing another film and I thought
Speaker 1: of didn't regard it as being central to my life.
Speaker 1: It never occurred to me that i'd get one. So
Speaker 1: when it did happen, I look back on it now
Speaker 1: and it was quite extraordinary because I was a great
Speaker 1: disappointment to all the kind of journalists because I didn't
Speaker 1: look the way they thought people who were nominated should look.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I don't know what to Yes,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But then you did it again.
Speaker 1: It was almost like, Okay, you don't think I am
Speaker 1: here we go again? We did, like four or five
Speaker 1: years later, you get out of the Academy Award for
Speaker 1: Best Actress. Well, Apparently a lot of audiences and others
Speaker 1: were very receptive because you've gone on to this this
Speaker 1: extraordinary career. Well you've had several careers. But indeed, I
Speaker 1: imagine that being an actor has changed a lot over
Speaker 1: the years. I mean, do you do you feel that
Speaker 1: or I think fundamentally it stays the same. But what
Speaker 1: has changed is what actors are asked to do. And
Speaker 1: there has been variable standards from excellence to pathetically dreadful
Speaker 1: that actors are asked to participate in. And it is
Speaker 1: still a hugely overcrowded profession, and certainly women are still second,
Speaker 1: if you know what I mean. I mean, the majority
Speaker 1: of of drama still has women as mere adjuncts or victims.
Speaker 1: They rarely have ever the central driving dramatic engine, and
Speaker 1: that I find quite bizarre, certainly given that it is
Speaker 1: contemporary writers who still go ahead with that, to my mind,
Speaker 1: some ot old fashioned view of our gender. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: you made an incredibly dramatic decision when you decided to
Speaker 1: go into politics. How did you make that decision? Glenda?
Speaker 1: Because I couldn't bear what was happening to my country.
Speaker 1: I'd always been politically interested, and I had always voted
Speaker 1: and things like that, and I just could not believe
Speaker 1: the direction in which the then Prime minister was driving
Speaker 1: my country. And Margaret Thatcher was the prime minister you
Speaker 1: were reacting to, she was indeed, yeah, yeah, it was
Speaker 1: just incredible. I mean, the things that I saw under
Speaker 1: that prime ministership, schools where there were virtually no libraries anymore.
Speaker 1: I mean, the kind of lack of concern for everybody
Speaker 1: was something that I just found intolerable. And I had
Speaker 1: worked for members of the Labor Party and I had
Speaker 1: campaigned for them and things like that, and a few
Speaker 1: constituencies had suggested to me that I stand myself, and
Speaker 1: eventually I thought, okay, I'll have a go. I never
Speaker 1: expected to actually win the seat, but I did, and
Speaker 1: there I was for the next twenty three years of
Speaker 1: my life, starting in what is that right? Yes, So
Speaker 1: when you were elected, much to your surprise, what did
Speaker 1: you bring from your acting career to your political career.
Speaker 1: I was not, I thought, afraid of standing up in
Speaker 1: the House of Commons and making a speech until they
Speaker 1: actually had to stand up and make a speech, and
Speaker 1: it all of suddenly crumbled around. But I was very
Speaker 1: clear in what I disliked what I held in some
Speaker 1: ways to be almost sacred about what I've worted my
Speaker 1: country to be and how I felt we should treat
Speaker 1: one another. And it was very interesting from one aspect,
Speaker 1: because everybody seemed to me already in Parliament expected me
Speaker 1: to behave like some mad diva and demand, you know,
Speaker 1: a central position and the best seat and all that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. That's not how the theater works, which
Speaker 1: is essentially you know, teamwork. I mean, you have to
Speaker 1: work with other people. Um, And so that came as
Speaker 1: a bit of a shock. But after a while that
Speaker 1: all sort of calmed down and I was acknowledged as
Speaker 1: being just another MP. Yeah, well I had the same
Speaker 1: experience when I was elected to the Senate. Yes, well
Speaker 1: there is a difference between being married to the President
Speaker 1: of the United States. Well that that was my theater
Speaker 1: experience for sure. And so when I was when I
Speaker 1: was elected and showed up, a very experienced senator said
Speaker 1: to me, well, the question is will you be a
Speaker 1: show horse or a workhorse? And I said, I've always
Speaker 1: been a workhorse, and put my head down, get to work,
Speaker 1: try to you know, make a difference, And and it
Speaker 1: did over time. Slowly change the opinion too, maybe even
Speaker 1: the apprehension that I would be more of a show horse.
Speaker 1: But when you're in that position, as you were in Parliament,
Speaker 1: as I was in the United States Senate, it's fascinating
Speaker 1: because it is a form of theater. Absolutely absolutely, Nonetheless,
Speaker 1: that experience was very eye opening for me. The thing
Speaker 1: I find most bewildering in a sense is that we
Speaker 1: are expected to be perfect. We're not expected to be human.
Speaker 1: We expect it to be perfect and to fail consistently,
Speaker 1: and that I just find very bizarre. You know, And
Speaker 1: if you're a woman, the do standard is alive and well,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Absolutely absolutely where everybody seems to be far
Speaker 1: more concerned about what you're wearing and how you're looking
Speaker 1: then what you're saying or what you're thinking or doing.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I've been there, done that. But what's so
Speaker 1: fascinating to me is that, you know, after twenty three
Speaker 1: years in parliament, so you were consistently reelected by your constituents,
Speaker 1: you were tired, and you were tired shortly before your
Speaker 1: seventy ninth birthday. And look, many people would have begun
Speaker 1: a very well deserved retirement. Glenda but that's not what
Speaker 1: you did. You decided to return to acting. How did
Speaker 1: you decide that? Well, honestly, it was quite fortuitous. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've done some stuff for the BBC Radio and then
Speaker 1: I was asked to do a play and someone suggested
Speaker 1: how to do later and I thought, you don't get
Speaker 1: this kind of off phone every day of the week.
Speaker 1: I have to do this, and I did, and it
Speaker 1: was really fascinating to me because I've been away, you know,
Speaker 1: from a theater as a workplace for us use more
Speaker 1: than twenty years. And the cast of Leave was in
Speaker 1: the main young and a lot of the young people
Speaker 1: in that had worked consistently having left drama school, but
Speaker 1: had never worked on the stage professionally. But for me,
Speaker 1: it was a comfortable place to be. For them, they
Speaker 1: had to learn that kind of comfort and that was
Speaker 1: quite revelatory. But to be actually back on the stage
Speaker 1: and to have a live audience in front of you
Speaker 1: was just extraordinary. We'll be back right after this quick break.
Speaker 1: So when you know a word came out that you
Speaker 1: were literally returning to the stage and doing lear, I
Speaker 1: was so excited. I don't know the history, Glenda, how
Speaker 1: many women, if any have played Lear in a in
Speaker 1: a major theatrical production. I can only, off the top
Speaker 1: of my head think of two. I mean, there would
Speaker 1: be two English actors I can remember doing it. But
Speaker 1: that kind of gender barrier essentially has gone. I mean,
Speaker 1: more and more actresses actually do take on nine times
Speaker 1: after ten it Shakespeare, because that's the kind of big thing.
Speaker 1: But it in a curious kind of way, my gender
Speaker 1: didn't influence what I was doing. I mean, as far
Speaker 1: as trying to do the play, trying to find that character,
Speaker 1: playing that character, the gender thing was never central. Well,
Speaker 1: that's the way it felt. I mean, watching you again
Speaker 1: inhabit that character, a very well known character. I never
Speaker 1: I thought when I was watching you that it didn't fit.
Speaker 1: I felt like it was an integrated performance, that it
Speaker 1: was you as an actor, not you as a woman actor,
Speaker 1: if that makes any sense. Absolutely, and I mean that
Speaker 1: was very central to to my thinking. And the character
Speaker 1: of Leary is someone who's never had anybody say no
Speaker 1: to them in their entire life, and that was the
Speaker 1: kind of thing that I worked on. The gender was
Speaker 1: utterly irrelevant. How did you memorize all those lines with
Speaker 1: it a different process than than when you had been
Speaker 1: acting twenty years before. No, I mean, I thank god,
Speaker 1: and you know, fingers crossed. I've never had any great
Speaker 1: difficulty in learning the lines. What I've always found amazing
Speaker 1: is sort of two days after the last performance, I
Speaker 1: can't remember relate to that, you know, sometimes I do.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll make a speech, or I'll be in a
Speaker 1: you know, spontaneous back and forth, and I'll say something
Speaker 1: and somebody will come up to me a couple of
Speaker 1: days later and said, oh, that was so amazing, or
Speaker 1: I really agreed with you, or I didn't agree with you,
Speaker 1: and I cannot remember what did I say. I have
Speaker 1: to go back and look. But I think it's partly
Speaker 1: self protective. I mean, you get into something in the
Speaker 1: moment or in your case and performance after a performance,
Speaker 1: but when it's done, you almost do have to let
Speaker 1: it go. I mean you need that, you need absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1: People always say to me, you know, how was the
Speaker 1: first performance? And every performance is the first performance, because
Speaker 1: that's alreadience hasn't been there before. You know, it exists
Speaker 1: when you do it right, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Every time it's like the first Well, yes, you must
Speaker 1: know that. Yeah, I mean, you've you've had it even
Speaker 1: harsher than any actors have it well. But but there
Speaker 1: is a comparison to what you just said in politics,
Speaker 1: like when you are running for office or when you
Speaker 1: are out with your constituents and your voters. You know,
Speaker 1: for you, it might be the fifth time you've spoken
Speaker 1: that day. For them, it's the first time they've seen you.
Speaker 1: So it is a performance, not in a negative way
Speaker 1: as some people try to portray it. But you have
Speaker 1: to get up for it. You have to be on
Speaker 1: your best. You have to convey, you know, the energy
Speaker 1: and the enthusiasm and the you have to connect and
Speaker 1: you have to connect. You have to figure out ways
Speaker 1: to do that. You know, you, you and I have
Speaker 1: been in the public eye, um. You in two different professions, um,
Speaker 1: and it's been I think for both of us, both
Speaker 1: rewarding and challenging, very much so. And you know, in
Speaker 1: the course of our lives, we've seen progress for women
Speaker 1: in public life, but we've also seen some, you know,
Speaker 1: very stubborn hurdles related to aging and gender. Absolutely. So,
Speaker 1: when you look back on your career, both in acting
Speaker 1: and in politics, what has changed for the better in
Speaker 1: the public perception of women and what still needs to change. Well,
Speaker 1: there are more. If I simply look at Parliament now,
Speaker 1: there are more women sitting on those green benches than
Speaker 1: they're where when I first sat on them. And there
Speaker 1: are women who are in actual professions and jobs and
Speaker 1: things which a few years ago would not have been considered.
Speaker 1: But there is still this huge, huge lack in actually
Speaker 1: listening to what women have to say in many occasions,
Speaker 1: and there is still this belief that, you know, choice
Speaker 1: has to be made as to who has something, then
Speaker 1: the male need of those that are going to be
Speaker 1: accommodated first. And that's just crazy. It's crazy because you
Speaker 1: look at who is actually doing the work nine times
Speaker 1: after a tenant's probably a woman. Well that that is
Speaker 1: for sure from my experience. And you know, the other
Speaker 1: thing that I find fascinating is how men are allowed
Speaker 1: to age and women are subjected to so much criticism
Speaker 1: about getting old in front of us. Now both you
Speaker 1: and I have aged in front of the world, and personally,
Speaker 1: I'm glad I get up every morning. I want to
Speaker 1: I want to keep aging for as long as I can.
Speaker 1: But it is it is another one of these, as
Speaker 1: you rightly say, bizarre double standards. That men become more distinguished,
Speaker 1: you know, they get with age viewed as more professional
Speaker 1: and more experienced. And you know, women, especially now in
Speaker 1: the world of social media, are diminished, are rejected, are
Speaker 1: really criticized and even ridiculed for literally aging in public. Absolutely, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And this is utterly bizarre because you know today wouldn't exist,
Speaker 1: wasn't the work that women put into it, whether they're
Speaker 1: paid for it or not. Well, so, how have you
Speaker 1: dealt with it? Like, what would you say to women
Speaker 1: of a certain age, older women like ourselves, who are
Speaker 1: encountering this age discrimination, who are feeling diminished, that people
Speaker 1: are shocked that they still have something to say and contribute.
Speaker 1: Would you tell them just to ignore it, go full
Speaker 1: speed ahead? Would you tell them to respond? How would
Speaker 1: you tell them to handle that? Well? I would think
Speaker 1: they would be so experienced, having had that treatment all
Speaker 1: their lives, that they would be able to accommodate it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, I'm I'm beginning to get to
Speaker 1: the stage. I happn't had that up to now, but
Speaker 1: I can feel it coming of what the hell If
Speaker 1: this is the way you're going to treat me, this
Speaker 1: is how I'm going to react? What the hell? Oh man,
Speaker 1: I want to see somebody write a role for you
Speaker 1: to play that Glenda. That would be good. I for
Speaker 1: one anxiously await whatever is next for you. I mean,
Speaker 1: I hope I get to see you on the stage again,
Speaker 1: or I hope I get to see you in some
Speaker 1: kind of you know whatever, streaming or movie or but
Speaker 1: that's most kind of you. Thank you. I hope to
Speaker 1: see you doing what you do so immacuately. We have
Speaker 1: to keep supporting one another women of a certain age.
Speaker 1: I love it. We certainly do. We certainly do. I'm
Speaker 1: sure we'll be seeing Glenda back on the stage or
Speaker 1: the screen soon. But in the meantime, why don't you
Speaker 1: try to track down a copy of Women in Love
Speaker 1: or any number her of her amazing performances from over
Speaker 1: the years. In Time magazine ran an article with the title,
Speaker 1: Mazie hron No is the only immigrant in the Senate.
Speaker 1: She's ready to take on Trump, and boy was she ever.
Speaker 1: Mazie spoke out against family separation in defense of the
Speaker 1: Affordable Care Act and doggedly questioned Trump's Supreme Court nominees.
Speaker 1: Mazie is an immigrant. She was born in Japan, but
Speaker 1: her mother grew up in Hawaii, went back to Japan,
Speaker 1: and then escaped an abusive marriage to bring Mazie and
Speaker 1: her brother back to Hawaii when Mazie was just seven
Speaker 1: years old. Mazie writes about those difficult years when the
Speaker 1: family struggled to get a foothold in this country, and
Speaker 1: then about her remarkable journey to the United States Senate
Speaker 1: in a mem war I really loved, called Heart of Fire.
Speaker 1: It came out last year during the pandemic. With the
Speaker 1: rise of violence and harassment against Asian Americans, Maizie has
Speaker 1: been a vocal advocate for anti hate crime legislation. Indeed,
Speaker 1: she's never stopped speaking her mind and fighting for the
Speaker 1: people who need a champion. She's done all of this
Speaker 1: in recent years while battling kidney cancer. Fortunately, she's in
Speaker 1: good health now, and I was thrilled to catch up
Speaker 1: with her, especially after reading her amazing book, What Inspired
Speaker 1: You to Put Pen to Paper. My mother, of course,
Speaker 1: and my husband had been encouraging me to write a memoir,
Speaker 1: but I guess saying no, no, no, But my mother
Speaker 1: has at that point suffered to strokes. She was not
Speaker 1: able to communicate anymore, and I if ever, I'm going
Speaker 1: to do it where I might be able to still
Speaker 1: talk to her about it. This was that, although I
Speaker 1: couldn't talked to her anyway, but truly I wanted to
Speaker 1: finish the book before she passed. I know you lost
Speaker 1: her in April, and I want to not only extend
Speaker 1: my deepest condolences, but to really celebrate her. What an
Speaker 1: extraordinary human being your mother was. She kind of reminds
Speaker 1: me of your mother, Hilary. I felt the same way,
Speaker 1: amazing that kind of work ethics, and her instinctiveness, courage
Speaker 1: and perseverance and everything else, you know, your mother's struggles
Speaker 1: to raise you and your brother on her own during
Speaker 1: your first years in Hawaii. I did think often, page
Speaker 1: after page about my own mother and her struggles and
Speaker 1: the you know, the courage it took for women of
Speaker 1: that era to really find their way against so many odds.
Speaker 1: She literally changed my life by making that courageous decision.
Speaker 1: And that's why one of my life lessons is one
Speaker 1: person could make a difference, because she changed my life
Speaker 1: by bringing me to this country. Can you share some
Speaker 1: of your memories that you tell so beautifully in the
Speaker 1: book about you know, those early years as you remember them.
Speaker 1: My mother never complained, she never talked badly about my father,
Speaker 1: but I know that for her to have left Japan
Speaker 1: and put that many miles and into our ocean between him,
Speaker 1: his family and us, I knew that it was a
Speaker 1: horrible situation and so much courage. Yes, the life was
Speaker 1: pretty basic with Mom, And when I think about how
Speaker 1: we struggled economically, what a difference it would have made
Speaker 1: if the child care tax credits a month, even for
Speaker 1: each child wouldn't made the world of difference because we
Speaker 1: would run out of money by the end of the month.
Speaker 1: And we we're living pretty simply, I can tell you
Speaker 1: in one room boarding house and all that, and our
Speaker 1: food was very simple. It would it would have made
Speaker 1: so much difference. That's why such a personal level, I
Speaker 1: know what three hundred dollars up to three hundred dollars
Speaker 1: per child can mean to a family that's just doing
Speaker 1: their very best. I agree with you completely, And of
Speaker 1: course you've gone on to change lives to now. Well,
Speaker 1: it's it's her heart of fire that got passed out
Speaker 1: to me. I I hope, and I do think about
Speaker 1: my mom a lot, and her absences is a huge
Speaker 1: thing for me, even if the last two years of
Speaker 1: her life she was living in a care facility, which
Speaker 1: is yet another issue that so many of us share,
Speaker 1: the need for our aging population for caregivers and the
Speaker 1: pittance we pay them. There's just so much about what
Speaker 1: we're going through that is so relevant to my lived experience,
Speaker 1: and it just as that much fervor to what I
Speaker 1: get to fight for. It gets you up every morning,
Speaker 1: doesn't it. I mean, that's that's what is so motivating.
Speaker 1: People often ask me. I'm sure they ask you. I mean,
Speaker 1: how can you take politics public service? It seems so hard,
Speaker 1: it seems dirty, it seems just impossible. But when those
Speaker 1: moments happen that you make a difference, isn't it the
Speaker 1: best feeling? You really do feel like I am helping somebody.
Speaker 1: I am making it, you know, possible for others to
Speaker 1: have a better life. And that's what I say to
Speaker 1: my staff. People in our country are getting screwed every second, minute,
Speaker 1: and hour of the day, and if we can decrease
Speaker 1: that number, we will be making a difference. We'll be
Speaker 1: doing our jobs, and that is the thing that should
Speaker 1: keep us going. But yes, there are time sillery when
Speaker 1: what I do sucks. You just have to get up
Speaker 1: and literally every morning, every I get out of bed
Speaker 1: by saying and at the same sort of thing, upward
Speaker 1: and onward, get out of that. You know, your mother
Speaker 1: thankfully lived to be ninety six. That's pretty extraordinary. Gloria
Speaker 1: Steinham once pointed out, contrary to the stereotype of sweet,
Speaker 1: soft spoken grandmother's, many women only become more forceful in
Speaker 1: their worldview as they age. And you know, you think
Speaker 1: about it, I mean, you've got nothing left to lose.
Speaker 1: Just let it rip, girl, Let it rip. That's what
Speaker 1: I say. If you don't mind, Harry, I wish you
Speaker 1: could have let a rip more when you were running
Speaker 1: against you know who, because that was such a bizarre campaign.
Speaker 1: How did you even know how to act with that?
Speaker 1: Was this behavior? You know? I mean, it was such
Speaker 1: a dilemma every day because the sort of stereotype of
Speaker 1: the angry woman. And even though we don't we don't
Speaker 1: feel like gray really feel like we're telling the truth.
Speaker 1: We're trying to stand up against you know, absurd and
Speaker 1: mean spirited things. You know, it's such a balance beam
Speaker 1: and the benefit of you know, you're being able to
Speaker 1: do that now and I'm so grateful you are. It's
Speaker 1: the people of Hawaii, your state. They know you, you know,
Speaker 1: they know you, and they have come not only to
Speaker 1: you respect, but to love you. And you've been in
Speaker 1: public life for such a long time. That's the way
Speaker 1: I felt when I was a senator from New York.
Speaker 1: But when you get on the big national stage with
Speaker 1: the electoral College, and like you know, one thousand votes
Speaker 1: here makes a huge difference. It's a really tough calculation. Truly,
Speaker 1: those gender stereotypes are very much alive. And well when
Speaker 1: people you would write, oh, she's finally meeting me, finally
Speaker 1: found her voice, first of all, it made me really
Speaker 1: piste up. But then I said, wait a minute. I've
Speaker 1: always had a voice. We've always had a voice. We
Speaker 1: just we need to use it more in ways that
Speaker 1: that are truthful and authentic and real. And so I'm
Speaker 1: so glad that I'm at the point where somebody like
Speaker 1: Trump evoked the usage of my voice to a really
Speaker 1: large extent. And if it is very free, it is
Speaker 1: to be more my complete self, because now I use
Speaker 1: my head, my heart, and my voice. Yes, well, that's
Speaker 1: what one of the aspects of your memoir that I
Speaker 1: found personally so interesting because you can see you gaining
Speaker 1: that voice and frankly, the willingness to stand up to
Speaker 1: the men around you in your life in politics. Um,
Speaker 1: you've spent now more than five decades in public office.
Speaker 1: Don't remind me no, but but you know, there were
Speaker 1: instances in those early years in your political career when
Speaker 1: the men around you meant, frankly, you had helped get elected,
Speaker 1: we're actively discouraging you from running for office. But you
Speaker 1: sometimes would sort of exceed, and then you started getting upset,
Speaker 1: and then you started standing up, and then you kept going.
Speaker 1: And it's a fascinating, very candid depiction of that, Mazie.
Speaker 1: And also, as I was experienced saying this, it was
Speaker 1: a as though I thought, oh, these guys are exhibiting
Speaker 1: their gender biases. It took me a long time to
Speaker 1: especially writing the book, is when I realized, over the
Speaker 1: time of my life and politics, how often the men
Speaker 1: would say, it's not your turn, and you haven't done enough,
Speaker 1: what's your record, etcetera. And you know a lot of
Speaker 1: times women we think that it's our fault that we're
Speaker 1: not good positioning, we're not positioning ourselves or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: And and I'm realized, sure, there could have been things
Speaker 1: that I could have done better, etcetera, etcetera. But when
Speaker 1: I think about the gender issues that that that have
Speaker 1: more impact I think on my political life, especially in
Speaker 1: a place like Hawaii, which is very diverse culturally, and
Speaker 1: so I didn't have so many of those racial kind
Speaker 1: of issues that we're much more prevalent on the mainland
Speaker 1: against people like me. We'll be right back. When you
Speaker 1: got to the Senate, did you feel that the culture shifted,
Speaker 1: that you were accepted as one of a hundred or
Speaker 1: were there still, you know, these challenges that you kept confronting.
Speaker 1: I think so because there are these notions that people
Speaker 1: have about someone who's Asian. We're very cooperative, demure, reserved,
Speaker 1: and to the extent that I wasn't as noisy as
Speaker 1: vocal as I am now. I think the some of
Speaker 1: my female colleagues had those notions, I would say, And
Speaker 1: so I think it's a recognition that I have and
Speaker 1: also to realize that as an Asian person, we are
Speaker 1: not much heard from and our voices are so much
Speaker 1: more evident because of the rise and hate crimes against
Speaker 1: Asian American specific islanders during COVID, and I've never seen
Speaker 1: so many Asian voices and faces on news. And then
Speaker 1: during this time, well, and you you were one of
Speaker 1: the really strong leaders in uh, you know, the combating
Speaker 1: of the hate crimes and violence against Asian Americans and
Speaker 1: Pacific Islanders, and you were the lead sponsor and the
Speaker 1: Senate of important legislation about hate crimes. Yes, I've gotten
Speaker 1: feedback from a number of people who say, thank you.
Speaker 1: You know, we once you start speaking out, you can't
Speaker 1: go back. And you ask, Well, some of my male
Speaker 1: colleagues they've never had to deal with an Asian woman
Speaker 1: who was a senator and the first and so somewhat
Speaker 1: unusual for them. And because I'm very outspoken and I
Speaker 1: actually have been known to swear, and some of them
Speaker 1: and it's just they really don't know how to respond,
Speaker 1: which is fine with me. Have you found as um,
Speaker 1: you know, you've gotten older. Um, we're the same age
Speaker 1: that you feel, you know, freer to be more outspoken
Speaker 1: with your colleagues, with the media obviously, anybody who you
Speaker 1: think deserves to be confronted. Yes, I do. I don't
Speaker 1: know whether it is the life experience process. I know
Speaker 1: for a fact that Trump and all the horrors that
Speaker 1: he unleashed, uh, and the daily attacks on the body politics.
Speaker 1: That has something to do with my speaking up against
Speaker 1: the biggest bully of them all, and also Hillary. I
Speaker 1: think it it is also my health diagnosis, and that
Speaker 1: that's something else that does make you realize life is short.
Speaker 1: You better get on with things. I know, I know,
Speaker 1: I remember when I heard about it, and of course
Speaker 1: I was concerned, like everyone who knows and admires you, uh,
Speaker 1: and you called me thank you. Well, I I was
Speaker 1: thinking about you and wanted to add my best wishes,
Speaker 1: and you just kept going. I mean you, you were indefatigable,
Speaker 1: and anybody who thought that it would slow you up
Speaker 1: was sadly mistaken, as we all could see firsthand. So, Mayzie,
Speaker 1: if you were speaking to younger women or even your
Speaker 1: younger self, what would you tell them about what's the
Speaker 1: best and the worst thing about aging? Well, you know,
Speaker 1: considering the alternative to answering what the hell right? So
Speaker 1: I think that it took me a lot longer to
Speaker 1: become more fully myself by using my voice as well
Speaker 1: as my head and heart, And so I would encourage
Speaker 1: young women to truly be true to yourself, ourselves and
Speaker 1: that's easier said than done. But don't be afraid. That
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we're just going to be running around
Speaker 1: with you know, being angry and all that. But be
Speaker 1: very focused on what we're doing. But to trust yourself.
Speaker 1: That's wonderful advice. I'm still working on it, by the
Speaker 1: way we are. I agree with you completely that that
Speaker 1: is the other thing I would say is you know
Speaker 1: that the journey doesn't end at some specific age. It's
Speaker 1: a learning process. You do get better, but you know
Speaker 1: it's never never a goal that you will achieve. You
Speaker 1: have to keep never done. It's never done. You have
Speaker 1: to keep working at it, and we will in great
Speaker 1: measure thanks to leaders like yourself, Mazie. I mean, I
Speaker 1: am so grateful to you for the leadership you're showing
Speaker 1: and the strength of your conviction and yes, the very
Speaker 1: powerful voice that you bring to all of these matters.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that. It means a lot,
Speaker 1: surely coming from you, Hillary, and you are another trailblazer,
Speaker 1: so you Senator. Mazie Heron's memoir Heart of Fire, an
Speaker 1: immigrant daughter's story comes out in paperback this April, and
Speaker 1: if you've enjoyed my conversations with these older and bolder women.
Speaker 1: You will love my conversations with Distance Swimmer, Diana and
Speaker 1: Naiad and with the one and only Gloria Steinhum both
Speaker 1: from season one of You and Me. Both You and
Speaker 1: Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo,
Speaker 1: with help from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson,
Speaker 1: Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow and Benita Zaman. Our
Speaker 1: engineer is Zack McNeice and original music is by Forrest Gray.
Speaker 1: If you like You and Me Both, please tell someone
Speaker 1: else about it. And if you're not already a subscriber,
Speaker 1: what are you waiting for? You can subscribe to You
Speaker 1: and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening and
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week, when will definitely be older
Speaker 1: and hopefully bolder too. M