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Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.

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Speaker 1: On last week's episode, I picked up a phrase from

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Speaker 1: my friend Luise Miranda that I just love. He said,

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Speaker 1: as I get older, I get bolder. I know exactly

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Speaker 1: what he means. It's something I see not only in myself,

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Speaker 1: but in many of the people that I admire, especially

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Speaker 1: women of a certain age. You are in the public

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Speaker 1: eye now, whether that means not holding back with your opinions,

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Speaker 1: or saying no to the things you don't want to do,

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Speaker 1: or the people who don't want to see, or saying

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Speaker 1: yes to the things you've always wanted to do but

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Speaker 1: either we're afraid to try, or didn't have time, you

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Speaker 1: name it. These women are getting bolder as they get older.

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Speaker 1: And today we're going to hear from three such incredible man. Later,

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Speaker 1: I'll be talking to my friends U S. Senator Mazie

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Speaker 1: Herono from Hawaii and actor Glenda Jackson, who, between winning

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Speaker 1: two Academy Awards and a Tony Award, and I think

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Speaker 1: a couple of Emmy's as well, served in the British

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Speaker 1: Parliament for twenty three years. But first I'm talking to

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Speaker 1: the one and only Congresswoman Maxine Waters. I've been a

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Speaker 1: big fan of Maxine Waters since I first learned about her,

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Speaker 1: and it's not hard to see why. Maxine has served

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Speaker 1: as a Member of Congress for South Los Angeles for

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Speaker 1: over thirty years, and over that time, she's earned a

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Speaker 1: reputation as a stalwart champion for progressive values who speaks

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Speaker 1: her mind and doesn't suffer fools. She emerged as one

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Speaker 1: of the fiercest, most vocal critics of the last president

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Speaker 1: aential administration, and she has never stopped fighting for what

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Speaker 1: she believes in. In fact, she became an Internet celebrity

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Speaker 1: when she refused to let a certain former Secretary of

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Speaker 1: the Treasury run out the clock during a hearing she

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Speaker 1: was chairing. She sure did reclaim her time, and she's

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Speaker 1: doing all of this at the age of eighty three now.

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Speaker 1: Before going into politics, Maxine was active in community organizing

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Speaker 1: the head Start program. She served on the board of

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Speaker 1: the Miss Foundation. She's been a mentor and inspiration to

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Speaker 1: countless people over the years. I always get a kick

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Speaker 1: out of talking with Maxine Waters, and I was so

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Speaker 1: delighted she had time to be on the podcast. Hello

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Speaker 1: Maxine Hello, how are you doing? Hell, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: And obviously we're going to talk about your long career

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Speaker 1: in public service and politics. But before we get to that,

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Speaker 1: I'd like our listeners to know more about where it

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Speaker 1: all started. I know you grew up in St. Louis

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Speaker 1: in a pretty busy household. I think you were the

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Speaker 1: fifth of thirteen children, right, yeah, I was, actually I

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Speaker 1: think the boy. Well, I think that's where you must

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Speaker 1: have figured out that you had a talent for organizing.

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Speaker 1: How would you describe, you know, what you wanted to

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Speaker 1: be when you were a little girl growing up in

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Speaker 1: that big family in St. Louis, Hillary, As I think

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Speaker 1: back on it, we were all made to be very

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Speaker 1: independent at a very early age. We had to be

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Speaker 1: because my mother, who had so many, you know, children,

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Speaker 1: certainly could not pay attention to all of us, and

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Speaker 1: so we had to learn how to do for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: But I also had wonderful school teachers and saying Lewis,

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Speaker 1: I was an athlete. I ran track, I played volleyball,

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Speaker 1: I played basketball, and I became a very good swimmer.

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Speaker 1: And this was all because the neighborhood. You got to

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Speaker 1: do things at your your community center, but one of

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Speaker 1: the stories that I've told often is this part of

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Speaker 1: the time, we were unwelfare and the social workers would

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Speaker 1: come to your home to review whether or not you

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Speaker 1: were in compliance with the rules of you know, getting

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Speaker 1: the benefits. And so they were always dressed very nicely. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They had lots of authority. And I thought to myself,

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Speaker 1: that's what I want to be. And um, I worked

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Speaker 1: when I was very young. When I was about thirteen,

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Speaker 1: I had a job in a restaurant, Thompson's Restaurant, and

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Speaker 1: it was not integrated, and I cleaned tables and we

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Speaker 1: had to eat our food in the basement because they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't allow you to eat, you know, in the restaurant.

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Speaker 1: But that's what I used to buy my clothing to

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Speaker 1: go back to school in September, and so I tried

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Speaker 1: to dress well, you know, look good. Uh, And I

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Speaker 1: earned the money to do pretty well with that. And

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Speaker 1: that's kind of generally you know, my background. You know, however,

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Speaker 1: you put it together. You learned how to dress really well, Maxine.

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Speaker 1: I mean that is one of the things that I

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Speaker 1: have admired for many many years. You know, you really

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Speaker 1: know how to put it together. So you went from

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Speaker 1: admiring those social workers to thinking maybe about politics. Did

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Speaker 1: becoming a congresswoman ever cross your mind? Politics began to

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Speaker 1: cross my mind early. I was chosen, uh to do speeches,

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Speaker 1: you know, And I was taken once to a big

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Speaker 1: event by a teacher in another city where I represented

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Speaker 1: my school. Uh, And then I was encouraged to do speaking,

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Speaker 1: and um, I began you know, to think about in

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Speaker 1: high school various kinds of activities that provided leadership opportunities.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's what led me to believe that

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Speaker 1: perhaps I could do something of service. But it really

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Speaker 1: didn't happen until I was married at a very young age,

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Speaker 1: and I got involved with the head Start program. The

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Speaker 1: War on Hobby was a magnificent thing that happened in

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Speaker 1: this country, and it created all of these programs. And

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Speaker 1: Headstart was so attractive. It was going to offer to

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Speaker 1: our little children and opportunity for early childhood education, which

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Speaker 1: of course the average working family or poor families certainly

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Speaker 1: could not afford. And I went to work for a

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Speaker 1: head Start as an assistant teacher. But head Start was

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Speaker 1: a real beginning for me. I too was learning, I

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Speaker 1: was learning a lot about myself. We had these interactive

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Speaker 1: programs where the staffs dealt with each other, helping each

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Speaker 1: other to understand what we cared about and basically what

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Speaker 1: was our philosophy in life. And it was out of

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Speaker 1: head Start that I really became me and I got

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Speaker 1: involved with the community, started to volunteer in campaigns, learned

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Speaker 1: how to you know, do everything from design brochures to

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Speaker 1: raise a little money, to organize get out the boat efforts, whatever.

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Speaker 1: And that was what catapulted me into running for office.

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Speaker 1: I love the connection between head Start and you getting

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Speaker 1: a start. I really love that, Maxine. And then you

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Speaker 1: ran for um a state assemblywoman position, right to be

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Speaker 1: in the UH California Assembly, and that was I think

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six. Is that about right? That's right? And

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Speaker 1: you know you you got elected off you went to

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Speaker 1: UH Sacramento. Um, what was that initial experience like for

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Speaker 1: you showing up as a representative of your constituents in

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Speaker 1: the state capital. Well, you know, there were several things

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Speaker 1: going on when I ran. It was really at the

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Speaker 1: height of the women's movement. And so when I was

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Speaker 1: in the Assembly, I went there without having had any

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Speaker 1: formalized experience as a legislator. So I just tried a

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Speaker 1: lot of things. The first thing I tried was this,

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna laugh at this. We were all called assemblyman,

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Speaker 1: and I thought were men and so and so I

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Speaker 1: decided I was going to change it. And so little

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Speaker 1: did I know that the men really were absolutely insulting

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Speaker 1: about the idea that this young woman was going to

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Speaker 1: come in and change the way that people may be

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Speaker 1: referred to. And so I got on the floor, I

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Speaker 1: presented my bill, and they came after me. But did

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Speaker 1: they come after me? And of course I lost, But

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Speaker 1: later on coming behind me, some of the women were

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Speaker 1: able to get it changed to assembly member based on

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Speaker 1: what I started. Well, I mean, you have started a

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Speaker 1: lot throughout your entire history. You know, you're now one

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Speaker 1: of the longest serving women in the House, and you

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Speaker 1: have many more women colleagues than you had when you started,

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Speaker 1: or that you had when you were back in state

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Speaker 1: government in California. So how has the world of politics

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Speaker 1: changed from your beginning work, and especially how has it

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Speaker 1: changed for women's Well, uh, and it certainly has changed tremendously.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that happened to me was Bella

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Speaker 1: Abzug and Gloria Steinham and these women I got connected to.

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Speaker 1: We had a big conference uh in Houston, Texas, where

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Speaker 1: we were going to help Jimmy Carter understand how he

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Speaker 1: could include women in his administration and the kinds of

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Speaker 1: things that we cared about. Well, the conference was fantastic,

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Speaker 1: but Jimmy Carter didn't take too kindly to us, and

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Speaker 1: he and Bella Abzug kind of you know, didn't hit

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Speaker 1: it off too well, and so they fired Bella and

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Speaker 1: we all quit. And so we all quit. But of

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Speaker 1: course I was asked to serve on the board of

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Speaker 1: the MESS Foundation, and that was a tremendous experience. We

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Speaker 1: had women who sent us unsolicited proposals. That's why I

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Speaker 1: learned so much about what we could do about violence

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Speaker 1: against women, what we could do about opening up opportunities

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Speaker 1: for women to see themselves in non traditional jobs. That's

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Speaker 1: when I learned about women who were suffering not only

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Speaker 1: from oftentimes you know, violence and but lack of basic resources.

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Speaker 1: And so I took many of those unsolicited proposals while

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Speaker 1: I was serving on the MISS Foundation board, and I

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Speaker 1: tried to turn them into something real. As a legislator

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Speaker 1: now in Sacramento, where I could basically be responsible for

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Speaker 1: changing public policy. And I want you to know that

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Speaker 1: back then, of course I learned and knew a lot

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Speaker 1: about discrimination, and I knew a lot about racism, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't really to stand the depth of it because

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Speaker 1: it had not been taught in our schools. Our parents

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Speaker 1: never really talked about it. Every now and then you

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Speaker 1: could get a story about some experience that they had had,

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Speaker 1: uh their grandparents had had when there was a hanging

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Speaker 1: somewhere in the South where they were, where there was

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Speaker 1: a burning. And then I got involved with a local

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Speaker 1: group here who was getting involved with the civil rights

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Speaker 1: movement in l A. It was a local in w

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Speaker 1: t P and some ministers that I got involved with,

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Speaker 1: and that's what got me more involved in the civil

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Speaker 1: rights movement. That got you going, and you haven't stopped yet,

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Speaker 1: which I loved about you. So eventually you decided to

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Speaker 1: run for Congress. What year was that, Well, let me

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Speaker 1: tell you. Augustus Hawkins was the Congressman of the area

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Speaker 1: and he had decided to retire, And when I decided

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Speaker 1: I wanted to run and he was retiring, asked him

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Speaker 1: to support me. Congressman Hawkins was legendary that's why he

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Speaker 1: was one of the most effective members of Congress for

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Speaker 1: his time. And the fact that he was an African

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Speaker 1: American who ascended the ranks within the House of Representatives

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Speaker 1: was incredibly impressive. And describe where your district is in

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Speaker 1: l A. Because it's a very important area. Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you. At that time the district was

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Speaker 1: was different. Even though they had a substantial black population,

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Speaker 1: we had smaller towns that were basically whited. And I

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Speaker 1: can remember a few things about that campaign and how

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Speaker 1: we decided to try and appeal to the whites in

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Speaker 1: the district, and so even though we didn't get all

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Speaker 1: of that support, we certainly did have enough of it

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Speaker 1: in order to be successful in the way Gus Hawkins was,

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Speaker 1: but he had done a lot. That was a day

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Speaker 1: when we had really more organized efforts that we have today.

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Speaker 1: That we had a group of women, welfare rights women

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Speaker 1: who were organized and they understood, you know, how to

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Speaker 1: work with government and they understood how to be advocates.

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Speaker 1: The women and that group were very inspiring to me. Also,

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Speaker 1: they spoke up and they spoke out, and I could

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Speaker 1: see them today just as clearly as if they were

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Speaker 1: still with us. Most of them have passed on, John

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Speaker 1: and May Tillman, Mary Henry. These were strong women, and

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Speaker 1: they not only were advocates and welfare rights. We had

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Speaker 1: one woman who went to the school board regularly and

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Speaker 1: if they did not pay attention to her, she would

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Speaker 1: not leave. And she was advocating but the children and

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Speaker 1: senior citizens, and even with housing. But these women, they

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Speaker 1: opened the doors for a lot of opportunities, and they

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Speaker 1: also made a real difference at the local, state and

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Speaker 1: federal level the changing laws and regulations. Well, I want

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Speaker 1: a fast forward, Maxcine, because you know, right now it

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Speaker 1: seems like a very difficult time in Congress, and we

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Speaker 1: have seen sadly both the Voting Rights Bill and Build

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Speaker 1: Back Better fail and every day House Republicans seem to

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Speaker 1: be drifting further and further into extremism. How does this

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Speaker 1: moment compare to others you've experienced over you know, your

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Speaker 1: long and storied career. Hillary, It's a terrible time in

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Speaker 1: the Congress of the United States of America. I am

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Speaker 1: so offended about what has happened and what is happening

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Speaker 1: to us now. I am so outraged about the lack

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Speaker 1: of respect for the Constitution, a lack of respect for

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Speaker 1: this democracy, a lack of what it means to be

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Speaker 1: a public servant working for the people. It is awful,

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Speaker 1: you know, Maxine. Something has happened to the people that

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Speaker 1: you and I served with. Why are so few of

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Speaker 1: the people actually in the Congress, both the House and

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Speaker 1: the Senate willing to stand up and say we cannot

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Speaker 1: go along with the big lie, the big steel, the

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Speaker 1: storming of the capital on January six? Do you think

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Speaker 1: we can ever get back to what should be the

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Speaker 1: norms of behavior and and working. Have to be a

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Speaker 1: person of optimism, no matter what, because you know, the

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Speaker 1: idea that we would have to in to tolerate something

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Speaker 1: like a Trump, you know, in this country without bringing

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Speaker 1: making him accountable for the harm that he has called

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Speaker 1: and continues calls, it is not something I can live with. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: we're in this time, and we're in this space where

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Speaker 1: people who are sitting in the House of Representatives for sure,

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Speaker 1: who belonged to Q and An who supports the Proud Boys,

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Speaker 1: the oath Keepers, and still the KKK right in the House.

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Speaker 1: They're sitting there and they have demonstrated whom they are.

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Speaker 1: But I think that you know, the people are seeing

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Speaker 1: this and wondering how could this be? And I think

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Speaker 1: that the people's anger about this will reveal itself even

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Speaker 1: as early in the two primaries. We're taking a quick break.

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Speaker 1: Stay with us. You know, you and I are women

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Speaker 1: of a certain age, and I think it's pretty tremendous

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Speaker 1: that you just keep going from strength to strength. I mean,

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Speaker 1: do you feel any different? Do you feel like people

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Speaker 1: treat you any differently? Now that you know you're older

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Speaker 1: than you were when you first ran for office and

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Speaker 1: have served all these years. Yeah, there's more talk about age,

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Speaker 1: and some of our younger people, you know, talk about age,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. But I want to tell you, when I

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Speaker 1: want you walk, you walk like this, shoulders up and

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Speaker 1: you walk with pride and dignity. Now, young people want

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Speaker 1: them to take a look at that, because we're women

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Speaker 1: of age. We're mature women, we've matured, and we're not

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Speaker 1: walking like this. We're we're not all that, We're not

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Speaker 1: all sad and what that you and so just watch us,

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Speaker 1: young people, just watch us, and hope. Before we have

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Speaker 1: to wrap up, I want to ask you for some advice.

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Speaker 1: We've both been in and out of politics at the

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Speaker 1: highest level. We've both been in campaigns. We're very familiar

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Speaker 1: with all of the challenges and stereotypes facing women in

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Speaker 1: leadership positions. What advice do you give to young women,

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Speaker 1: even girls who want to know whether they should get

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Speaker 1: into public life, you know, maybe even run for office. Well,

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Speaker 1: I encourage those who are interested to do it, to

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Speaker 1: run for office. And then I talk about as much

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Speaker 1: as I can what I think it takes uh to

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Speaker 1: be a good elected official, and you know, examining the

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Speaker 1: reason you want to do it. This is about where

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Speaker 1: are you coming from philosophically, who are you? Have you

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Speaker 1: come to grips with whom you are and what you

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Speaker 1: really care about and having a philosophy about life. And

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Speaker 1: then I think if you do, then you can do

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Speaker 1: almost anything because you're not going to be pulled in

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Speaker 1: nine and nine different directions. You have a clarity of

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Speaker 1: purpose and a clarity of understanding what you care about.

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Speaker 1: So I talk a lot about getting in touch with itself.

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Speaker 1: That is such great advice, Maxine. I mean, that's great

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Speaker 1: advice for anybody thinking about doing anything. You know, to

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Speaker 1: thine own self be true. But that requires you gotta

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Speaker 1: know who yourself is and why you are doing what

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Speaker 1: you're doing. I'll tell you, Maxine Waters, I am so

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Speaker 1: grateful for our friendship all that we have been able

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Speaker 1: to experience together. And I'm so appreciative that you took

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Speaker 1: your time out if you're incredibly busy schedule to be

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Speaker 1: on this podcast, because I think your words are going

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Speaker 1: to mean so much to so many. Well, thank you

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Speaker 1: for inviting me. You know I've always loved and supported you,

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Speaker 1: and I think you are perhaps one of the most

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Speaker 1: ready leaders that ever approached running for president of the

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Speaker 1: United States, and you should have been You should have

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Speaker 1: been elected. But whatever you want to do, I support you,

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Speaker 1: and I want you to know that you and I

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Speaker 1: have just begun to mature. We've got a lot left

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Speaker 1: in us. Amen, Sister Amen, keep your eye on Congresswoman

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Speaker 1: Maxine Waters, because she sure does have a lot left

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Speaker 1: in her. Our next guest will be familiar to fans

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Speaker 1: of great actors and members of parliament alike. Glenda Jackson

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Speaker 1: was born in Liverpool in nineteen thirty six. She began

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Speaker 1: acting in her teens and by the nineteen seventies achieved

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Speaker 1: the rare distinction of winning two Academy Awards for Best Actress,

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Speaker 1: not to mention two Emmy Awards for her iconic portrayal

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Speaker 1: of Queen Elizabeth on television. In nine seventy eight, Glenda

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Speaker 1: was bestowed with the highest honor in the United Kingdom

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Speaker 1: for contributions to the Arts and Sciences, the Most Excellent

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Speaker 1: Order of the British Empire. But then in too she

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Speaker 1: took an abrupt break from acting to actually run for

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Speaker 1: a seat in Parliament, and she was elected to the

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Speaker 1: House of Commons as a member of the Labor Party

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Speaker 1: and stayed in office for the next twenty three years.

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Speaker 1: Now at that point, after conquering the heights of two

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Speaker 1: no different fields, they have some connections. What do they say,

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Speaker 1: you know, being in politics in Washington is uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: theater for ugly people. I don't know, something like that.

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Speaker 1: Most people would welcome the chance to head into retirement,

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Speaker 1: but not Glenda. Instead, she decided to return to the stage. Now,

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Speaker 1: just a few years ago, before the pandemic, I had

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Speaker 1: the immense pleasure of seeing her on Broadway in two

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Speaker 1: remarkable performances in Three Tall Women, for which she won

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Speaker 1: a Tony and and in the title role in Shakespeare's

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Speaker 1: King Lear which she took on at the tender age

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Speaker 1: of eighty two. I cannot tell you how thrilled I

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Speaker 1: was when she agreed to speak with me for this podcast. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing this. I'm thrilled to

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Speaker 1: be talking to you. Well, it's a privilege to see

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Speaker 1: you and to be able to speak to you. You know,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking back, um, when preparing to talk with you,

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Speaker 1: to the first time I knew of you, which was

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Speaker 1: when I saw Women in Love. Well, those years ago.

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Speaker 1: I just just graduated from college. I had read the book.

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Speaker 1: I really was interested in going to the movie and

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Speaker 1: just adored it good and yeah, and so you have

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Speaker 1: been someone kind of in my consciousness for a very

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Speaker 1: long time. But I know that you really had done

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Speaker 1: so much before that before you won an Academy Award

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Speaker 1: for that, and then you want another one a few

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Speaker 1: years later for a touch of class. How did you

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Speaker 1: decide that you wanted to become an actor? How do

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Speaker 1: you make that decision? A friend of mine was a

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Speaker 1: member of a local amateur dramatic society. I had left school,

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Speaker 1: I was working in a local chemist shop. I felt

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Speaker 1: there was more to life than I was experiencing. That

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Speaker 1: possibly I may have had more to contribute. And someone

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Speaker 1: said to me, you should go to a drama school,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, well, okay, I'll try. So I did

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Speaker 1: an audition for the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art for

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Speaker 1: a scholarship, and they wrote back and said, if we'd

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Speaker 1: had a scholarship, you would have got it, but we haven't,

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Speaker 1: so you haven't. And fortunately the manager of my chemist

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Speaker 1: shop wrote to my local authority. This was in the

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Speaker 1: days when local authorities actually had the money to afford

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Speaker 1: the kind of tunities felt all of us, and they

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Speaker 1: gave me the scholarship. And so there I was at

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Speaker 1: drama school. And and did you feel when you got

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Speaker 1: to the Royal Academy that you belonged there or were

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Speaker 1: you feeling a little bit awkward about whether this was

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Speaker 1: right for you? No? No, I didn't feel that because

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Speaker 1: it was a very varied intake of other students as well,

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Speaker 1: from all over the country. And what year was that, Glenda?

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Speaker 1: That must have been about sixty years ago. I mean

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Speaker 1: I was nineteen, so more than that, because I'm older now,

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Speaker 1: well we both are. What was your big break? So

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Speaker 1: you go to drama school, A lot of people go

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Speaker 1: to drama schools. Oh, yes, I had. I had years

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Speaker 1: of unemployment. I don't think there's a job that I

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Speaker 1: can't do, because I take any kind of job to

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Speaker 1: to earn a living. I suppose the really big break

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Speaker 1: was Women in Love. Um, I mean, I've done quite

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Speaker 1: a bit of fear to work, but it was I

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Speaker 1: think that film that was a big breakthrough. So you

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Speaker 1: do your first major film and you get nominated for

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Speaker 1: an Academy Award. What was that experience like when that

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Speaker 1: came out, I was doing another film and I thought

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Speaker 1: of didn't regard it as being central to my life.

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Speaker 1: It never occurred to me that i'd get one. So

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Speaker 1: when it did happen, I look back on it now

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Speaker 1: and it was quite extraordinary because I was a great

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Speaker 1: disappointment to all the kind of journalists because I didn't

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Speaker 1: look the way they thought people who were nominated should look.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I don't know what to Yes,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But then you did it again.

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Speaker 1: It was almost like, Okay, you don't think I am

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Speaker 1: here we go again? We did, like four or five

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Speaker 1: years later, you get out of the Academy Award for

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Speaker 1: Best Actress. Well, Apparently a lot of audiences and others

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Speaker 1: were very receptive because you've gone on to this this

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Speaker 1: extraordinary career. Well you've had several careers. But indeed, I

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Speaker 1: imagine that being an actor has changed a lot over

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Speaker 1: the years. I mean, do you do you feel that

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Speaker 1: or I think fundamentally it stays the same. But what

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Speaker 1: has changed is what actors are asked to do. And

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Speaker 1: there has been variable standards from excellence to pathetically dreadful

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Speaker 1: that actors are asked to participate in. And it is

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Speaker 1: still a hugely overcrowded profession, and certainly women are still second,

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Speaker 1: if you know what I mean. I mean, the majority

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Speaker 1: of of drama still has women as mere adjuncts or victims.

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Speaker 1: They rarely have ever the central driving dramatic engine, and

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Speaker 1: that I find quite bizarre, certainly given that it is

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Speaker 1: contemporary writers who still go ahead with that, to my mind,

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Speaker 1: some ot old fashioned view of our gender. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: you made an incredibly dramatic decision when you decided to

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Speaker 1: go into politics. How did you make that decision? Glenda?

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Speaker 1: Because I couldn't bear what was happening to my country.

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Speaker 1: I'd always been politically interested, and I had always voted

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Speaker 1: and things like that, and I just could not believe

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Speaker 1: the direction in which the then Prime minister was driving

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Speaker 1: my country. And Margaret Thatcher was the prime minister you

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Speaker 1: were reacting to, she was indeed, yeah, yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: just incredible. I mean, the things that I saw under

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Speaker 1: that prime ministership, schools where there were virtually no libraries anymore.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the kind of lack of concern for everybody

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Speaker 1: was something that I just found intolerable. And I had

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Speaker 1: worked for members of the Labor Party and I had

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Speaker 1: campaigned for them and things like that, and a few

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Speaker 1: constituencies had suggested to me that I stand myself, and

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Speaker 1: eventually I thought, okay, I'll have a go. I never

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Speaker 1: expected to actually win the seat, but I did, and

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Speaker 1: there I was for the next twenty three years of

432
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: my life, starting in what is that right? Yes, So

433
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: when you were elected, much to your surprise, what did

434
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: you bring from your acting career to your political career.

435
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: I was not, I thought, afraid of standing up in

436
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: the House of Commons and making a speech until they

437
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: actually had to stand up and make a speech, and

438
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: it all of suddenly crumbled around. But I was very

439
00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: clear in what I disliked what I held in some

440
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: ways to be almost sacred about what I've worted my

441
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: country to be and how I felt we should treat

442
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: one another. And it was very interesting from one aspect,

443
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: because everybody seemed to me already in Parliament expected me

444
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: to behave like some mad diva and demand, you know,

445
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: a central position and the best seat and all that

446
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. That's not how the theater works, which

447
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: is essentially you know, teamwork. I mean, you have to

448
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: work with other people. Um, And so that came as

449
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: a bit of a shock. But after a while that

450
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: all sort of calmed down and I was acknowledged as

451
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: being just another MP. Yeah, well I had the same

452
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: experience when I was elected to the Senate. Yes, well

453
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: there is a difference between being married to the President

454
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: of the United States. Well that that was my theater

455
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: experience for sure. And so when I was when I

456
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: was elected and showed up, a very experienced senator said

457
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: to me, well, the question is will you be a

458
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: show horse or a workhorse? And I said, I've always

459
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: been a workhorse, and put my head down, get to work,

460
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: try to you know, make a difference, And and it

461
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: did over time. Slowly change the opinion too, maybe even

462
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: the apprehension that I would be more of a show horse.

463
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: But when you're in that position, as you were in Parliament,

464
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: as I was in the United States Senate, it's fascinating

465
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: because it is a form of theater. Absolutely absolutely, Nonetheless,

466
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: that experience was very eye opening for me. The thing

467
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: I find most bewildering in a sense is that we

468
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: are expected to be perfect. We're not expected to be human.

469
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: We expect it to be perfect and to fail consistently,

470
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: and that I just find very bizarre. You know, And

471
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: if you're a woman, the do standard is alive and well,

472
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: isn't it. Absolutely absolutely where everybody seems to be far

473
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: more concerned about what you're wearing and how you're looking

474
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: then what you're saying or what you're thinking or doing.

475
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I've been there, done that. But what's so

476
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: fascinating to me is that, you know, after twenty three

477
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: years in parliament, so you were consistently reelected by your constituents,

478
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: you were tired, and you were tired shortly before your

479
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: seventy ninth birthday. And look, many people would have begun

480
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: a very well deserved retirement. Glenda but that's not what

481
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: you did. You decided to return to acting. How did

482
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: you decide that? Well, honestly, it was quite fortuitous. I mean,

483
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: I've done some stuff for the BBC Radio and then

484
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: I was asked to do a play and someone suggested

485
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: how to do later and I thought, you don't get

486
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: this kind of off phone every day of the week.

487
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: I have to do this, and I did, and it

488
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: was really fascinating to me because I've been away, you know,

489
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: from a theater as a workplace for us use more

490
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: than twenty years. And the cast of Leave was in

491
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: the main young and a lot of the young people

492
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: in that had worked consistently having left drama school, but

493
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: had never worked on the stage professionally. But for me,

494
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: it was a comfortable place to be. For them, they

495
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: had to learn that kind of comfort and that was

496
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: quite revelatory. But to be actually back on the stage

497
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: and to have a live audience in front of you

498
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: was just extraordinary. We'll be back right after this quick break.

499
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: So when you know a word came out that you

500
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: were literally returning to the stage and doing lear, I

501
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: was so excited. I don't know the history, Glenda, how

502
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: many women, if any have played Lear in a in

503
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: a major theatrical production. I can only, off the top

504
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 1: of my head think of two. I mean, there would

505
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: be two English actors I can remember doing it. But

506
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: that kind of gender barrier essentially has gone. I mean,

507
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,479
Speaker 1: more and more actresses actually do take on nine times

508
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: after ten it Shakespeare, because that's the kind of big thing.

509
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: But it in a curious kind of way, my gender

510
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: didn't influence what I was doing. I mean, as far

511
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: as trying to do the play, trying to find that character,

512
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: playing that character, the gender thing was never central. Well,

513
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: that's the way it felt. I mean, watching you again

514
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: inhabit that character, a very well known character. I never

515
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: I thought when I was watching you that it didn't fit.

516
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: I felt like it was an integrated performance, that it

517
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: was you as an actor, not you as a woman actor,

518
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: if that makes any sense. Absolutely, and I mean that

519
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: was very central to to my thinking. And the character

520
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: of Leary is someone who's never had anybody say no

521
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: to them in their entire life, and that was the

522
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: kind of thing that I worked on. The gender was

523
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: utterly irrelevant. How did you memorize all those lines with

524
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: it a different process than than when you had been

525
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: acting twenty years before. No, I mean, I thank god,

526
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: and you know, fingers crossed. I've never had any great

527
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: difficulty in learning the lines. What I've always found amazing

528
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: is sort of two days after the last performance, I

529
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 1: can't remember relate to that, you know, sometimes I do.

530
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll make a speech, or I'll be in a

531
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: you know, spontaneous back and forth, and I'll say something

532
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: and somebody will come up to me a couple of

533
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: days later and said, oh, that was so amazing, or

534
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: I really agreed with you, or I didn't agree with you,

535
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: and I cannot remember what did I say. I have

536
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: to go back and look. But I think it's partly

537
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: self protective. I mean, you get into something in the

538
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: moment or in your case and performance after a performance,

539
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 1: but when it's done, you almost do have to let

540
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: it go. I mean you need that, you need absolutely absolutely.

541
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: People always say to me, you know, how was the

542
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: first performance? And every performance is the first performance, because

543
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: that's alreadience hasn't been there before. You know, it exists

544
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: when you do it right, you know what I mean?

545
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: Every time it's like the first Well, yes, you must

546
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: know that. Yeah, I mean, you've you've had it even

547
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: harsher than any actors have it well. But but there

548
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: is a comparison to what you just said in politics,

549
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,439
Speaker 1: like when you are running for office or when you

550
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: are out with your constituents and your voters. You know,

551
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: for you, it might be the fifth time you've spoken

552
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: that day. For them, it's the first time they've seen you.

553
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: So it is a performance, not in a negative way

554
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: as some people try to portray it. But you have

555
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: to get up for it. You have to be on

556
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: your best. You have to convey, you know, the energy

557
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: and the enthusiasm and the you have to connect and

558
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 1: you have to connect. You have to figure out ways

559
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: to do that. You know, you, you and I have

560
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: been in the public eye, um. You in two different professions, um,

561
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: and it's been I think for both of us, both

562
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: rewarding and challenging, very much so. And you know, in

563
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 1: the course of our lives, we've seen progress for women

564
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: in public life, but we've also seen some, you know,

565
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: very stubborn hurdles related to aging and gender. Absolutely. So,

566
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: when you look back on your career, both in acting

567
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: and in politics, what has changed for the better in

568
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,919
Speaker 1: the public perception of women and what still needs to change. Well,

569
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,439
Speaker 1: there are more. If I simply look at Parliament now,

570
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: there are more women sitting on those green benches than

571
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: they're where when I first sat on them. And there

572
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: are women who are in actual professions and jobs and

573
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: things which a few years ago would not have been considered.

574
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: But there is still this huge, huge lack in actually

575
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: listening to what women have to say in many occasions,

576
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: and there is still this belief that, you know, choice

577
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: has to be made as to who has something, then

578
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: the male need of those that are going to be

579
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: accommodated first. And that's just crazy. It's crazy because you

580
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: look at who is actually doing the work nine times

581
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: after a tenant's probably a woman. Well that that is

582
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 1: for sure from my experience. And you know, the other

583
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: thing that I find fascinating is how men are allowed

584
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: to age and women are subjected to so much criticism

585
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: about getting old in front of us. Now both you

586
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 1: and I have aged in front of the world, and personally,

587
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: I'm glad I get up every morning. I want to

588
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: I want to keep aging for as long as I can.

589
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: But it is it is another one of these, as

590
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: you rightly say, bizarre double standards. That men become more distinguished,

591
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: you know, they get with age viewed as more professional

592
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: and more experienced. And you know, women, especially now in

593
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: the world of social media, are diminished, are rejected, are

594
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: really criticized and even ridiculed for literally aging in public. Absolutely, absolutely,

595
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: And this is utterly bizarre because you know today wouldn't exist,

596
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: wasn't the work that women put into it, whether they're

597
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: paid for it or not. Well, so, how have you

598
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: dealt with it? Like, what would you say to women

599
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: of a certain age, older women like ourselves, who are

600
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: encountering this age discrimination, who are feeling diminished, that people

601
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: are shocked that they still have something to say and contribute.

602
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: Would you tell them just to ignore it, go full

603
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: speed ahead? Would you tell them to respond? How would

604
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: you tell them to handle that? Well? I would think

605
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 1: they would be so experienced, having had that treatment all

606
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 1: their lives, that they would be able to accommodate it.

607
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, I'm I'm beginning to get to

608
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: the stage. I happn't had that up to now, but

609
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: I can feel it coming of what the hell If

610
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: this is the way you're going to treat me, this

611
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: is how I'm going to react? What the hell? Oh man,

612
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: I want to see somebody write a role for you

613
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: to play that Glenda. That would be good. I for

614
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: one anxiously await whatever is next for you. I mean,

615
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: I hope I get to see you on the stage again,

616
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: or I hope I get to see you in some

617
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: kind of you know whatever, streaming or movie or but

618
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: that's most kind of you. Thank you. I hope to

619
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: see you doing what you do so immacuately. We have

620
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 1: to keep supporting one another women of a certain age.

621
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: I love it. We certainly do. We certainly do. I'm

622
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: sure we'll be seeing Glenda back on the stage or

623
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: the screen soon. But in the meantime, why don't you

624
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 1: try to track down a copy of Women in Love

625
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: or any number her of her amazing performances from over

626
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: the years. In Time magazine ran an article with the title,

627
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: Mazie hron No is the only immigrant in the Senate.

628
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: She's ready to take on Trump, and boy was she ever.

629
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: Mazie spoke out against family separation in defense of the

630
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: Affordable Care Act and doggedly questioned Trump's Supreme Court nominees.

631
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: Mazie is an immigrant. She was born in Japan, but

632
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: her mother grew up in Hawaii, went back to Japan,

633
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: and then escaped an abusive marriage to bring Mazie and

634
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: her brother back to Hawaii when Mazie was just seven

635
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: years old. Mazie writes about those difficult years when the

636
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: family struggled to get a foothold in this country, and

637
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: then about her remarkable journey to the United States Senate

638
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: in a mem war I really loved, called Heart of Fire.

639
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: It came out last year during the pandemic. With the

640
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: rise of violence and harassment against Asian Americans, Maizie has

641
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: been a vocal advocate for anti hate crime legislation. Indeed,

642
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: she's never stopped speaking her mind and fighting for the

643
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: people who need a champion. She's done all of this

644
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: in recent years while battling kidney cancer. Fortunately, she's in

645
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: good health now, and I was thrilled to catch up

646
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 1: with her, especially after reading her amazing book, What Inspired

647
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 1: You to Put Pen to Paper. My mother, of course,

648
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: and my husband had been encouraging me to write a memoir,

649
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: but I guess saying no, no, no, But my mother

650
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: has at that point suffered to strokes. She was not

651
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: able to communicate anymore, and I if ever, I'm going

652
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,720
Speaker 1: to do it where I might be able to still

653
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: talk to her about it. This was that, although I

654
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: couldn't talked to her anyway, but truly I wanted to

655
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: finish the book before she passed. I know you lost

656
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: her in April, and I want to not only extend

657
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 1: my deepest condolences, but to really celebrate her. What an

658
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: extraordinary human being your mother was. She kind of reminds

659
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 1: me of your mother, Hilary. I felt the same way,

660
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 1: amazing that kind of work ethics, and her instinctiveness, courage

661
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: and perseverance and everything else, you know, your mother's struggles

662
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 1: to raise you and your brother on her own during

663
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: your first years in Hawaii. I did think often, page

664
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 1: after page about my own mother and her struggles and

665
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 1: the you know, the courage it took for women of

666
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: that era to really find their way against so many odds.

667
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: She literally changed my life by making that courageous decision.

668
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: And that's why one of my life lessons is one

669
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: person could make a difference, because she changed my life

670
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: by bringing me to this country. Can you share some

671
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: of your memories that you tell so beautifully in the

672
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: book about you know, those early years as you remember them.

673
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: My mother never complained, she never talked badly about my father,

674
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: but I know that for her to have left Japan

675
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: and put that many miles and into our ocean between him,

676
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: his family and us, I knew that it was a

677
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: horrible situation and so much courage. Yes, the life was

678
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: pretty basic with Mom, And when I think about how

679
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: we struggled economically, what a difference it would have made

680
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: if the child care tax credits a month, even for

681
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: each child wouldn't made the world of difference because we

682
00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: would run out of money by the end of the month.

683
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: And we we're living pretty simply, I can tell you

684
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: in one room boarding house and all that, and our

685
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: food was very simple. It would it would have made

686
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: so much difference. That's why such a personal level, I

687
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: know what three hundred dollars up to three hundred dollars

688
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 1: per child can mean to a family that's just doing

689
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: their very best. I agree with you completely, And of

690
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: course you've gone on to change lives to now. Well,

691
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: it's it's her heart of fire that got passed out

692
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: to me. I I hope, and I do think about

693
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: my mom a lot, and her absences is a huge

694
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: thing for me, even if the last two years of

695
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,439
Speaker 1: her life she was living in a care facility, which

696
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: is yet another issue that so many of us share,

697
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: the need for our aging population for caregivers and the

698
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 1: pittance we pay them. There's just so much about what

699
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 1: we're going through that is so relevant to my lived experience,

700
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 1: and it just as that much fervor to what I

701
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 1: get to fight for. It gets you up every morning,

702
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 1: doesn't it. I mean, that's that's what is so motivating.

703
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: People often ask me. I'm sure they ask you. I mean,

704
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: how can you take politics public service? It seems so hard,

705
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 1: it seems dirty, it seems just impossible. But when those

706
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: moments happen that you make a difference, isn't it the

707
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: best feeling? You really do feel like I am helping somebody.

708
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: I am making it, you know, possible for others to

709
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: have a better life. And that's what I say to

710
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: my staff. People in our country are getting screwed every second, minute,

711
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: and hour of the day, and if we can decrease

712
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: that number, we will be making a difference. We'll be

713
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: doing our jobs, and that is the thing that should

714
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: keep us going. But yes, there are time sillery when

715
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: what I do sucks. You just have to get up

716
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: and literally every morning, every I get out of bed

717
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 1: by saying and at the same sort of thing, upward

718
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: and onward, get out of that. You know, your mother

719
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: thankfully lived to be ninety six. That's pretty extraordinary. Gloria

720
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 1: Steinham once pointed out, contrary to the stereotype of sweet,

721
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: soft spoken grandmother's, many women only become more forceful in

722
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: their worldview as they age. And you know, you think

723
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:21,720
Speaker 1: about it, I mean, you've got nothing left to lose.

724
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: Just let it rip, girl, Let it rip. That's what

725
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: I say. If you don't mind, Harry, I wish you

726
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: could have let a rip more when you were running

727
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 1: against you know who, because that was such a bizarre campaign.

728
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: How did you even know how to act with that?

729
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: Was this behavior? You know? I mean, it was such

730
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: a dilemma every day because the sort of stereotype of

731
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: the angry woman. And even though we don't we don't

732
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 1: feel like gray really feel like we're telling the truth.

733
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: We're trying to stand up against you know, absurd and

734
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: mean spirited things. You know, it's such a balance beam

735
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: and the benefit of you know, you're being able to

736
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: do that now and I'm so grateful you are. It's

737
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: the people of Hawaii, your state. They know you, you know,

738
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: they know you, and they have come not only to

739
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: you respect, but to love you. And you've been in

740
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: public life for such a long time. That's the way

741
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: I felt when I was a senator from New York.

742
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 1: But when you get on the big national stage with

743
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: the electoral College, and like you know, one thousand votes

744
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: here makes a huge difference. It's a really tough calculation. Truly,

745
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: those gender stereotypes are very much alive. And well when

746
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,240
Speaker 1: people you would write, oh, she's finally meeting me, finally

747
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: found her voice, first of all, it made me really

748
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 1: piste up. But then I said, wait a minute. I've

749
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 1: always had a voice. We've always had a voice. We

750
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: just we need to use it more in ways that

751
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 1: that are truthful and authentic and real. And so I'm

752
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: so glad that I'm at the point where somebody like

753
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,399
Speaker 1: Trump evoked the usage of my voice to a really

754
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 1: large extent. And if it is very free, it is

755
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: to be more my complete self, because now I use

756
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 1: my head, my heart, and my voice. Yes, well, that's

757
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 1: what one of the aspects of your memoir that I

758
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: found personally so interesting because you can see you gaining

759
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: that voice and frankly, the willingness to stand up to

760
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: the men around you in your life in politics. Um,

761
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: you've spent now more than five decades in public office.

762
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: Don't remind me no, but but you know, there were

763
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: instances in those early years in your political career when

764
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 1: the men around you meant, frankly, you had helped get elected,

765
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: we're actively discouraging you from running for office. But you

766
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 1: sometimes would sort of exceed, and then you started getting upset,

767
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: and then you started standing up, and then you kept going.

768
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: And it's a fascinating, very candid depiction of that, Mazie.

769
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: And also, as I was experienced saying this, it was

770
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: a as though I thought, oh, these guys are exhibiting

771
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: their gender biases. It took me a long time to

772
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 1: especially writing the book, is when I realized, over the

773
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: time of my life and politics, how often the men

774
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: would say, it's not your turn, and you haven't done enough,

775
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: what's your record, etcetera. And you know a lot of

776
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: times women we think that it's our fault that we're

777
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: not good positioning, we're not positioning ourselves or whatever it is.

778
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 1: And and I'm realized, sure, there could have been things

779
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: that I could have done better, etcetera, etcetera. But when

780
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: I think about the gender issues that that that have

781
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: more impact I think on my political life, especially in

782
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: a place like Hawaii, which is very diverse culturally, and

783
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: so I didn't have so many of those racial kind

784
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: of issues that we're much more prevalent on the mainland

785
00:52:52,760 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: against people like me. We'll be right back. When you

786
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 1: got to the Senate, did you feel that the culture shifted,

787
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: that you were accepted as one of a hundred or

788
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: were there still, you know, these challenges that you kept confronting.

789
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: I think so because there are these notions that people

790
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: have about someone who's Asian. We're very cooperative, demure, reserved,

791
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: and to the extent that I wasn't as noisy as

792
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: vocal as I am now. I think the some of

793
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 1: my female colleagues had those notions, I would say, And

794
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: so I think it's a recognition that I have and

795
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: also to realize that as an Asian person, we are

796
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: not much heard from and our voices are so much

797
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: more evident because of the rise and hate crimes against

798
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: Asian American specific islanders during COVID, and I've never seen

799
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: so many Asian voices and faces on news. And then

800
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 1: during this time, well, and you you were one of

801
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,879
Speaker 1: the really strong leaders in uh, you know, the combating

802
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 1: of the hate crimes and violence against Asian Americans and

803
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,359
Speaker 1: Pacific Islanders, and you were the lead sponsor and the

804
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 1: Senate of important legislation about hate crimes. Yes, I've gotten

805
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 1: feedback from a number of people who say, thank you.

806
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: You know, we once you start speaking out, you can't

807
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 1: go back. And you ask, Well, some of my male

808
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: colleagues they've never had to deal with an Asian woman

809
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: who was a senator and the first and so somewhat

810
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: unusual for them. And because I'm very outspoken and I

811
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: actually have been known to swear, and some of them

812
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,240
Speaker 1: and it's just they really don't know how to respond,

813
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 1: which is fine with me. Have you found as um,

814
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 1: you know, you've gotten older. Um, we're the same age

815
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: that you feel, you know, freer to be more outspoken

816
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 1: with your colleagues, with the media obviously, anybody who you

817
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 1: think deserves to be confronted. Yes, I do. I don't

818
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: know whether it is the life experience process. I know

819
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:25,879
Speaker 1: for a fact that Trump and all the horrors that

820
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: he unleashed, uh, and the daily attacks on the body politics.

821
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,720
Speaker 1: That has something to do with my speaking up against

822
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: the biggest bully of them all, and also Hillary. I

823
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: think it it is also my health diagnosis, and that

824
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 1: that's something else that does make you realize life is short.

825
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 1: You better get on with things. I know, I know,

826
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: I remember when I heard about it, and of course

827
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: I was concerned, like everyone who knows and admires you, uh,

828
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 1: and you called me thank you. Well, I I was

829
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 1: thinking about you and wanted to add my best wishes,

830
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: and you just kept going. I mean you, you were indefatigable,

831
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 1: and anybody who thought that it would slow you up

832
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: was sadly mistaken, as we all could see firsthand. So, Mayzie,

833
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: if you were speaking to younger women or even your

834
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: younger self, what would you tell them about what's the

835
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: best and the worst thing about aging? Well, you know,

836
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: considering the alternative to answering what the hell right? So

837
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: I think that it took me a lot longer to

838
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: become more fully myself by using my voice as well

839
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 1: as my head and heart, And so I would encourage

840
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 1: young women to truly be true to yourself, ourselves and

841
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: that's easier said than done. But don't be afraid. That

842
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we're just going to be running around

843
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 1: with you know, being angry and all that. But be

844
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 1: very focused on what we're doing. But to trust yourself.

845
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: That's wonderful advice. I'm still working on it, by the

846
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 1: way we are. I agree with you completely that that

847
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 1: is the other thing I would say is you know

848
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: that the journey doesn't end at some specific age. It's

849
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,840
Speaker 1: a learning process. You do get better, but you know

850
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: it's never never a goal that you will achieve. You

851
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 1: have to keep never done. It's never done. You have

852
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 1: to keep working at it, and we will in great

853
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 1: measure thanks to leaders like yourself, Mazie. I mean, I

854
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 1: am so grateful to you for the leadership you're showing

855
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 1: and the strength of your conviction and yes, the very

856
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: powerful voice that you bring to all of these matters.

857
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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that. It means a lot,

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Speaker 1: surely coming from you, Hillary, and you are another trailblazer,

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Speaker 1: so you Senator. Mazie Heron's memoir Heart of Fire, an

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Speaker 1: immigrant daughter's story comes out in paperback this April, and

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Speaker 1: if you've enjoyed my conversations with these older and bolder women.

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00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 1: You will love my conversations with Distance Swimmer, Diana and

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00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: Naiad and with the one and only Gloria Steinhum both

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00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: from season one of You and Me. Both You and

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Speaker 1: Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo,

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Speaker 1: with help from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson,

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Speaker 1: Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow and Benita Zaman. Our

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Speaker 1: engineer is Zack McNeice and original music is by Forrest Gray.

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Speaker 1: If you like You and Me Both, please tell someone

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Speaker 1: else about it. And if you're not already a subscriber,

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00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: what are you waiting for? You can subscribe to You

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00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening and

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Speaker 1: I'll see you next week, when will definitely be older

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Speaker 1: and hopefully bolder too. M