WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Who was Colonel Tomb? 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.119 Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by the UFO 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:06.360 hitting on the one dollar bill. Instead, it's brought to 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:10.639 you by there's a new season of a really great podcast, 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.520 in the Dark. That's right, there's a new podcast. Uh, 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.560 it's back with the second season. In the first season 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:19.720 in the Darker in the Peabody for its in depth 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.760 coverage of the Jacob Weddling kidnapping. Season two, they're going 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.280 to explore a new story with life or death consequences. 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:29.880 In this case, it's four people who were killed in 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:33.320 a small town of Mississippi and one black man on 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:36.240 death row who has been tried six times for their murder. 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.040 You can find In the Dark now on Apple, Podcast, Stitcher, 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:48.560 or wherever else you might listen. Think You're so d 0:00:48.640 --> 0:01:04.240 looking art. Hello, comrades, and welcome again to another episode 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:09.520 of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve, as always, joined by 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:13.560 and Joe, and once again we've got a mystery for you. 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:18.920 Yeah this week, comrade, Well, this week we're going to 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:23.000 do another Vietnam War mystery and I think that unlike 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:25.880 the last one, most people are gonna like it. The 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:30.160 basic overview our our mystery is that during the Vietnam War. 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:35.560 A Vietnam People's Air Force pilot identified by U S 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:41.680 Intelligence as Win Tomb or maybe the name is actually Tuned, 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:45.560 but either way, Win was considered to be one of 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.480 the most proficient and deadliest pilots between the years of 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.400 nineteen and seventy two. He was the actually the Tom 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.880 Cruise of North Vietnam, Yes he was, and during that 0:01:55.960 --> 0:02:02.120 time he took down thirteen US aircraft. Of course, after 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:06.480 the conflict ended, it was discovered that officially there was 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:11.440 no record of Tomb in the North Vietnamese UH system. 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.640 You know, they have no record of this guy, which 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:18.000 begged the question of well, why and who who was he? 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.880 So shall we get into the mystery? That was some 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:35.799 sort of spirit perhaps Now Tom, when okay, I love 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.000 it when we start off like this. To start at 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.799 the beginning. During the Vietnam War, the Vietnam People's Air 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:46.280 Force got help, of course from the Soviets, and that 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.480 help came in the form of aircraft and training on 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:53.200 how to fly and operate that aircraft. And initially the 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.040 Vietnamese were the North Vietnamese were given MiG seventeens and 0:02:57.080 --> 0:03:00.920 then later they were given MiG twenty ones, which we're 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.240 not the latest and greatest in fighter plane technology, but 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:08.239 they were. I mean, the seventeens were kind of classic 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.080 nineteen fifties cold war technology. You know, It's like the 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.440 Saber jet that we had. They looked like flying pipes. 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.800 Ye yeah, yeah, well if you think about it, So 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:22.680 the MiG seventeen, it's got it's got this weird open 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.720 nose cone thing going on, so instead of coming to 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:29.200 a nice point, it stops and it's open, and then 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.440 its wings or what you would consider a traditional airplane 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.560 wing to be, but they're slooped back and they have 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:38.040 a rounded edge to them. But then the Big twenty 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:42.960 one has actual pointy nose and more of the triangular 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:47.320 shaped wings. So it was more modern in that sense. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.839 But of course both planes are. They're very effective if 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.480 put into the right hands, and the Vietnamese had to 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:57.839 use them because they were the planes that they had, 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.880 so they became very proficient with them, which was the 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.800 idea of the training. Now, there there were downfalls to 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:07.920 both planes. The Mix seventeen specifically, as Joe said, was 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.520 an older plane. It couldn't quite get up to Mock 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.720 one from what I understand, and also it had old 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:18.839 school hydraulic control or I take that back. It didn't 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.120 have hydraulic controls, which meant that when you were going 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.960 really fast, it was sluggish to respond because of course, 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.200 as we've talked about fly by wire, I got I 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.039 do this every time, I got it mixed up. But 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:33.520 you have to as hard as you can pull is 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:37.400 as much force as you're going to exert on the 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:43.839 mechanical linka exactly exactly, so that that slows them down 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.480 from high speed maneuvers, where the twenty ones are more 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.600 akin to the F four phantoms that the US were 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.000 flying at that time, which were considered you know, kind 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:57.280 of top of the line aircraft, at least fighter jets. 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.520 During the Vietnam Conflict, the U A signals Intelligence, which 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:06.400 is uses the acronym sick int, which just pronounces so well, 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.839 they tracked all of the pilots that they could, and 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:12.680 they did that by their call signs, because of course 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.800 they're eavesdropping on all of the radio communications. I mean, 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.560 that's what signals intelligence does. The other side is doing 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.440 a similar thing. It's just why you know, we actually 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:23.479 have you know, we actually have more discipline when it 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:25.760 comes to things like call signs. Apparently our pilots changed 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.720 their call sign every with every mission. Yeah, so you 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:30.920 might have you might have a nickname like Tom Cruise 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.120 and top Gun, but your actual call sign is not 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.240 going to be that nickname, and probably every time, yeah, 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:40.440 you're not gonna actually be they're not gonna be actually calling. Yeah, yeah, 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:42.560 exactly do they get to come up with them or 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.880 they I think they're assigned. Yeah, yeah, that's probably makes 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:47.839 more sense. It would be hard. It does make sense 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.760 because otherwise they know who's in the air and who's not. 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.120 You know, don't you don't want them knowing anything if 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:54.920 you can possibly help it. Well, but if you get 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.880 to pick your own, like every mission, it's like, all right, guys, 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.080 we're going out for a mission tomorrow. Everybody picked a 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:05.240 call sign and you can't be Archer again. Okay, yeah 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:07.479 that yeah, no, Well, but you know what's funny about 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.400 that is that we've apparently we've gotten much better about it. 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.719 But for a long time, during the Vietnam War, there 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:19.120 was a run that the US used to do every day, 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:23.120 the exact same course, at the exact same time, with 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:25.960 the exact same I mean to the minute, to the 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:28.880 point that the North Vietnamese knew exactly when they were 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:33.240 coming through and leverage that against them quite effectively and 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:35.800 took out a whole bunch of planes. And I can't 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.880 remember what operation that was in, but I mean, now 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:42.120 you it makes sense why we we switch it up 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.720 all the time. But then it apparently wasn't as big 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.360 of a deal. People didn't realize and how important that was. 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:50.640 We probably didn't think they had the capability, and all 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:52.800 of a sudden it turns out they acquired it on 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:58.159 the sly. Yeah. What happens here is, as we've said, 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.680 they're listening to the radio adder they're building histories and 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.960 identifying the different pilots, the U s intelligences of the 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:11.320 Vietnamese pilots, kind of building histories or dossiers of you know, 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:13.360 where they've been and what they've done right and what 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.680 they've done wrong, their their strengths awaknesses, and that allows 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:21.880 them to eventually become start tracking this one pilot in particular, 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.520 who we're talking about, which is Colonel tomb He had 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.040 taken out several US aircraft in the mid to late 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.680 nineteen sixties and had become a bit of a boogeyman 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.720 for US pilots, and as the war would go on, 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.640 he would rack up more and more kills of US 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.560 aircraft and was considered a flying ace, which if you 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.520 don't know what a flying aces. To be considered an ace, 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.000 you have to generally speaking in this dirt. Depending on 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.280 the conflict, this can vary, but you have to have 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.520 taken out at least five enemy aircraft. If you take 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.840 out four, you're a good pilot, but you're not an ace. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.520 These numbers, um seemed like a little low just to 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.640 the layman, right, So do we have an average of 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.119 you know, how many flight how many aircraft and normal 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:11.680 pilot would take out in a conflict like this, Well, 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.440 there there's a lot of difficulty in that. It depends 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:19.720 on how target richer environment is. So in the Vietnam War, 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.680 in the beginning, the Vietnamese had about seven aircraft total 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:27.520 available to them, whereas the US had hundreds in the air. 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.920 So it's a target poor environment for the US and 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:34.280 a target rich environment for the Vietnamese. Now, as the 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:37.600 war would go on, the Vietnamese would get more more planes. 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:42.680 But again it's how many targets are available at any 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.079 one time for you to take down. So that's it's 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.600 it's a weird ballet. It's uh, you know, for them 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:49.800 typically are flying in formation and one big can come 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.800 over and just shoot an air to air missile. We're 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.520 gonna hit somebody. So it's kind of a shotgun kind 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.120 of thing. Really, I mean, I guess you're an ace, 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:58.400 but what do you do? You ran over, you know, 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:00.559 fire a missile with this group of as and hit 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.040 one of them. It's not the most you know, fantastic, 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.360 it's glorious according to Hollywood. But when it comes to 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:08.680 taking out your enemy, you did your job. Oh you 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.520 totally did. But uh And as far as like you know, 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.000 what's going on for air to eric kills these days, 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:16.480 I'm not sure that there's nearly any of that going 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:18.720 on anymore. I mean, it doesn't seem like our planes 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:22.000 that they're talking these incredibly fast aircraft. It's kind of 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.079 hard to dog fight each other. And all I can 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.600 do is, like, you know, fire a missile at the guy, 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.240 and he's probably you can't even actually visually see him. 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.040 You can see on your radar or wherever. Okay, if 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.520 somebody over there click, you know, and so it's not 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:36.400 the dog fighting like you know they used to have 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.240 back in the good old days, shooting at each other 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:42.200 with you know, with machine guns and stuff like that. 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:44.120 I guess back in the World War two days they 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.360 would actually they would actually throw a hand gernades at 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:48.240 each other. They'd like try to fly over the they're 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:50.720 following fie paint white planes and stuff, and they like 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:55.000 actually just try to drop hand grenades. I say, one there, two, 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.680 I said to Okay, one, Okay, I was I was 0:09:57.760 --> 0:09:59.360 asking this. I was like, I don't remember a whole 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:03.000 lot of biplane tomorrow. There probably was one or two, 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:07.320 but they didn't last didn't. So to answer my question, no, 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.160 we don't know what whatever is. Yeah, And because it 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:12.280 depends on the conflict, and I think it's I think 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:16.160 it's just been going down over time. Really, let's see 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.680 where was I? Um? Okay? Both? Well, So we're talking 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.480 about aces. So, like I said, you had to be 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.240 yet to take at least five enemy craft out to 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.640 be considered an ACE. And at the end of the war, 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:34.160 Tomb was recorded as having taken out thirteen US aircraft. 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:38.680 Now not all of those were airplanes with people in them. 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.920 There's something that is it's a oh god, it's a yeah, 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:44.920 it's a drone. There were two of them, and I 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.480 want to say they were called fireflies or fire plug 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.280 I can't remember which. And I read about them and 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.640 it didn't completely understand them. But I just want to 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:56.079 let you know that that's in there, so if anybody 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:59.400 goes out and starts reading about it, that is technically 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.160 an enemy or crafts. So we counted for the record. 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:07.719 Apparently the balloons count. I don't. I don't know, probably not. Yeah, 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:13.440 it's probably easy target, probably training targets for them. So 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:17.800 the there's interesting things here about Colonel tomb though, one 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.160 of which is that there were two images of his 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:26.160 aircraft that were circulated among US forces. The images, Just 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:30.640 to be clear, they were taken by other pilots, right. 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.400 I believe one of them was actually on the ground, 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.240 like somebody like somebody snapped a picture while it was 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.480 sitting on the ground. But I'm not I'm not a 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:44.240 positive because I couldn't find these images. I could find 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.520 images that were similar, but I couldn't find the same 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:51.320 ones with the same at least I don't think I 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.120 saw them with the same plane numbers, because the planes 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:58.360 had identifier numbers on him, as all aircraft do. And 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.480 the MiG seventeen had the number three zero two zero 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:06.040 on the nose, uh, and it had six stars on 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.840 the nose. And for people who aren't familiar with this, 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:11.840 the number of stars on the nose means the number 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.200 of kills. And then there was another image that was 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.240 a big twenty one that had the number four three 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:23.040 to six on the nose along with thirteen stars. So 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:27.599 that's a lot of kills. But they're very two different aircraft. 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.440 And that's part of the confusion in this story because 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:35.000 that's not typically the way a pilot would operate. They 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:39.000 would fly a plane. They wouldn't fly multiple kinds of planes. No, 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.600 not usually, not not unless you know all the big 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.080 seventeens went away and then that it's time to move 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:49.880 Colonel tomb up to it's kind of desperate scenario, and 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.320 it and it represents the number of the aircraft took 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.920 down on the pilot right the stars. Typically that's not 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.040 the case. It's how many the pilot took down. Typically 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.520 it's the number that's pilot takes. So I mean, really, 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.120 what we're saying here is later this awesome pilot may 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:09.600 have been flying a better plane, right, it's possible. Yeah, 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.520 I wonder how that works. I assume that, like, say, 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:13.760 if you if you did fly, I got six kills 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.120 with you mixed you make seventeen and they were like, 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.599 and then you graduate to one? Do they transfer the 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:24.760 the sex skills over? Yeah? I have a feeling that 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:26.720 I know the answer, but I'm gonna save that till later. 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.160 It seems just don't dry out the suspense. Seems like 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.280 it's only fair to transform over. You know, it seems 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:34.520 like that to me too. But but and then if not, 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:40.240 like maybe he did have the you know, twenty kills 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:46.440 to nineteen kills, yeah, six and yeah, let's jump back 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.400 to the official narrative here. By the way, what I've 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:50.520 been trying to run through is is kind of the 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.640 generally agreed upon official narrative of these things that are 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:56.720 in the story, and then when we get into theories 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.760 will parse into bits and pieces of it more deeply, 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:03.840 as year tend to do. But officially, Tom's career would 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.320 come to an end, and that date would officially be 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:13.319 May tenth, ninety two. On that day, Randy Duke Cunningham 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:18.080 and his co pilot Willie Irish Driscoll, who were both U. S. 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.480 Navy pilots, and they had recently just graduated from the 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:27.400 then newly formed top gun program. Again Tom Cruise to 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:37.960 the Dangers own. Well, yeah, so these guys had graduated 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:39.960 with the program. They're now in the air. It's made 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:44.800 ten oh. And people may recognize the name Randy Cunningham 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.480 because he was a U. S. Congressman. Uh and in 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:52.920 two thousand and five he was not so happily for him, 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.680 convicted of taking millions in ribes and sentenced to eight 0:14:56.720 --> 0:15:00.560 years in prison. So if he was your congressman, I'm sorry, Yeah, 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:02.360 it's too bad for him, right, So I guess he 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:05.080 would have gotten out by now. I have not heard 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.960 anything about Randy Cunningham, to keep it that way. Yeah, 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:13.760 that's not surprising that we haven't heard anything from him. Well, 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:15.480 I hope it was smart enough to squirrel away some 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:20.120 of those millions of bribes. I have a feeling anyway, 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:25.440 pre bribe. Cunningham and Irish Driskell, we're both in a 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.000 F four Phantom on that day and they were in 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:32.840 a mission which was near Hannoi when they encountered several 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:37.080 Vietnamese People's Air Force aircraft, and it was a group 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.360 of it makes seventeens. As you can guess, a dog 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:45.240 fights ensued. All but one of the MiGs were taken out, 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:50.080 and then this fight takes out that takes place between 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:56.640 the remaining MiG and Cunningham and drisk All. Now Cunningham's 0:15:56.280 --> 0:16:00.360 F four Phantom. It had aired air missiles by the 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.000 other thing. But of course it's faster, but it can't 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:05.960 do well at slow speeds. Makes seventeens are better at 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.640 slow speeds, but it has no missiles. All it's got 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.240 is thirty seven caliber and another I can't remember. The 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:15.520 other lighter caliber gun is something like that. It's got candy, 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:18.480 so it's it's shooting guns, and I don't remember. I 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.720 don't think the f R Fantom had a cannon, didn't. 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.240 I don't believe it had any guns. I don't remember 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.120 that when I was reading. I think that it relied 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.360 a lot on its missiles, because a lot is made 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:31.800 out about the fact that in the early years of 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:36.160 the conflict, the Phantom was plagued with tons and tons 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:40.360 of issues of faulty air to air missiles, either not 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:45.600 launching or just launching and not tracking their targets there was. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:49.800 It was a giant fiasco for the Defense Department. So 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:53.480 I feel like it had the missiles, but I don't 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:54.880 remember off the top of my head, so I don't 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:57.520 want to commit to that because they're probably wrong. Yeah, 0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:59.160 I think it had like it was a fighter bomber. 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.440 I think essentially drop bombs and fire missiles, but I 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.280 don't think the head of cannon. But if we're wrong, 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:07.360 somebody will let us here. Yeah, if one of those 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.199 guys that flew one of those things will send us 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.879 and up yep. So what happens here though, is, of course, 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.240 the fight goes back and forth. The MiGs tries to 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.080 slow the fight down so we can do better. Cunningham 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.119 has to hit the afterburner or not the after We 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:20.760 had to hit the gas, so we go fast. So 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:22.719 this goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.520 until he's eventually able to lock on with a sidewinder 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.399 missile and take out this final MiG seventeen, which he 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:35.199 says he watched burst apart in flames and fall to 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.840 the ground. The ground, I'll just say the canopy, and 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.600 that wasn't right now, but it fell to earth below him. 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:48.280 He and his co pilot, though, wouldn't escape unscathed. Very 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.000 shortly after that, in that same flight, actually they would 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:54.440 be hit by a surface to air missile. They would 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.440 fly out over the South China Sea, where they would 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:01.879 bail out and then eventually be rescued. Of course, because 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.040 that's what happens to the hero who is taking out 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.800 the scourge of the North Vietnamese skies. Colonel too, if 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:13.080 you're lucky, that's what happens. Yeah, usually not actually yeah, no, 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:18.240 there's sharks and stuff. Well, Cunningham t tells US intelligence 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:22.000 that he saw the number three zero two zero painted 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:26.000 on that big seventeen and so military and US military 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:30.879 intelligence says, yes, you took out Colonel tomb Good job, buddy. 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.879 Not only did you just get upgraded to a status 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:37.040 because that was your your kill, but you took out 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:43.240 this bad guy. Yea, and Jo disappears from the war. Yeah, 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.520 so there you go. So yeah, my sort of doubt 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:47.720 his story about seeing that number on the nose of 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.159 the plane. But then if Tom did suddenly you know, 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.320 not show up anymore, I guess you got him, took 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:57.760 his toys and left. Basically years later, there is a 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:02.040 Hungarian man named I'm gonna I hate, I hate pronouncing 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:06.960 this guy's name, Dr ist von topp er Sev, and 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.920 he would be he would go to Vietnam to research 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:16.159 the pilots of the Vietnamese People's Air Force, supposedly, And 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.560 we'll get into the supposedly later. And I assume about 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:20.680 years later. You mean what Hungary it was still under 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.679 basically Soviet domination. It was still a communist state, I 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.240 believe while they were still a communist state. This appears 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:31.600 to from the reading that I've done, been before people 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.000 from the West were let into Vietnam, because people from 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.440 the West were held out of the country for many, 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:41.679 many decades. But eventually they are historians would be allowed 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:43.200 in and they would come in and ask the same 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:48.920 question as the Hungarian doctor, which is, hey, um, so, 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.360 who was Colonel tomb to which they would all get 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:57.760 the same answer of yeah, who are you talking about? 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.080 There's no record of this guy. You don't know what 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.240 you're what you're saying. And for a guy who is 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.560 supposedly as good of a pilot and as good at 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:12.119 taking down enemy, it seems really weird that he dropped 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:16.000 out of the records completely and entirely. You know, maybe 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:18.560 they said him on a super secret mission and they 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.080 had to erase his name from the whole record. Maybe 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:26.119 save that for theories, Okay, Okay, So yeah, so this 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:28.879 flying ace, this war hero, and and believe me, the 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.840 Vietnamese loved to celebrate their war heroes. He disappears. So 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.359 it brings up what is our mystery, which is a 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.640 why is he not in the record? And be if 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:44.800 he was a real person, who was he? So was 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.720 he so super secret? Because yeah, if war hero, you 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:49.760 think they'd be celebrating them and have statues of them 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:53.720 in all kinds of stuff. All right, So that's our mystery. 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:58.200 So let's get into the theories. Okay, but first let's 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:05.840 take a quick break. Support for today's show comes from 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.919 Grove Grobe is an e commerce company that I like 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:10.840 because if they make it easy for me to find 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.600 the best natural products, take care of myself, my home, 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.320 my cats, and to make sure I never run out 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:19.320 of my stuff. They've got a lot of really good products, 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:24.600 Mrs Myers, seventh Generation, Real Simple, Tom's, etcetera, etcetera. And 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.320 I really like the Mrs Myers because it doesn't make 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.560 me break out and it looks really good in my bathroom. 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:31.960 As I said, I really like Mrs Myers a lot. 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.960 There's also this really cool wandering detrigent that's concentrated. It 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.040 comes in the recyclable container, and I really like about 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.359 it is that is to concentrate, it causts less to ship, 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.000 and it's smaller, takes up less space in my house, 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:46.520 so it's really the best. Um. Another another great thing 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:49.159 about Grow is they deliver everything right to your door 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:51.400 when you want it. They offer free shipping and free 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:54.320 return to no questions asked, and they have Grow guides 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:57.800 which are always available to answer your questions or at 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:00.280 outams to your next order if you run out. So 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:03.080 sign up for Global Collaborative at Grove dot ceo. That's 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:06.800 Grow dot co slash sideways and you will receive a 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.679 thirty dollars Mrs Myers gift set for free with your 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:13.280 order of twenty bucks or more. That's Grove dot ceo, 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:18.919 not com slash sideways, Grove dot ceo sideways. You won't 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:30.160 regret it and we're back. Yeah. So theory number one, Yeah, 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:35.000 that's there's a theory. There's well, actually believe it or not. 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.560 I've got what four or five in here. Never mind 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:43.080 your ghost theory, secret agent theory, don't forget that secret 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:45.520 agent theory. Yeah. Actually, this, this one is actually all 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.600 over the internet, especially on like aviation sites and Vietnam 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:53.280 Veteran system particular theory. No, this particular mystery. Yeah, I 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:56.280 got a lot of good information. There's a ton of 0:22:56.359 --> 0:22:58.280 ton of information out there, although a lot of a 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:00.440 lot of the same information, but had a lot of 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.320 arguing because that's what forums are all about. Okay, So 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:08.240 theory number one is that Colonel tomb was in fact 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:14.359 a myth created accidentally by the US Signals Intelligence Group. 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:19.399 They got their signals crossed. Not good, not good for 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:23.399 SI to get their six crossed. So basically what it 0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:27.240 is is that the theories that he never never actually existed, 0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:30.679 and they made him up by accident. And there's a 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:35.000 couple of different ways that this could happen. Now, of course, 0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:37.600 as we talked about earlier, to be a flaw, and 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:40.280