1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,119 Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by the UFO 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: hitting on the one dollar bill. Instead, it's brought to 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: you by there's a new season of a really great podcast, 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: in the Dark. That's right, there's a new podcast. Uh, 5 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: it's back with the second season. In the first season 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: in the Darker in the Peabody for its in depth 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: coverage of the Jacob Weddling kidnapping. Season two, they're going 8 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: to explore a new story with life or death consequences. 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: In this case, it's four people who were killed in 10 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: a small town of Mississippi and one black man on 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: death row who has been tried six times for their murder. 12 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: You can find In the Dark now on Apple, Podcast, Stitcher, 13 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: or wherever else you might listen. Think You're so d 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: looking art. Hello, comrades, and welcome again to another episode 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve, as always, joined by 16 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: and Joe, and once again we've got a mystery for you. 17 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: Yeah this week, comrade, Well, this week we're going to 18 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: do another Vietnam War mystery and I think that unlike 19 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: the last one, most people are gonna like it. The 20 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: basic overview our our mystery is that during the Vietnam War. 21 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: A Vietnam People's Air Force pilot identified by U S 22 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: Intelligence as Win Tomb or maybe the name is actually Tuned, 23 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: but either way, Win was considered to be one of 24 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: the most proficient and deadliest pilots between the years of 25 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: nineteen and seventy two. He was the actually the Tom 26 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: Cruise of North Vietnam, Yes he was, and during that 27 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: time he took down thirteen US aircraft. Of course, after 28 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: the conflict ended, it was discovered that officially there was 29 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: no record of Tomb in the North Vietnamese UH system. 30 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: You know, they have no record of this guy, which 31 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: begged the question of well, why and who who was he? 32 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: So shall we get into the mystery? That was some 33 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: sort of spirit perhaps Now Tom, when okay, I love 34 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: it when we start off like this. To start at 35 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: the beginning. During the Vietnam War, the Vietnam People's Air 36 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: Force got help, of course from the Soviets, and that 37 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: help came in the form of aircraft and training on 38 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: how to fly and operate that aircraft. And initially the 39 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: Vietnamese were the North Vietnamese were given MiG seventeens and 40 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: then later they were given MiG twenty ones, which we're 41 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: not the latest and greatest in fighter plane technology, but 42 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 1: they were. I mean, the seventeens were kind of classic 43 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties cold war technology. You know, It's like the 44 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: Saber jet that we had. They looked like flying pipes. 45 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: Ye yeah, yeah, well if you think about it, So 46 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: the MiG seventeen, it's got it's got this weird open 47 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: nose cone thing going on, so instead of coming to 48 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: a nice point, it stops and it's open, and then 49 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: its wings or what you would consider a traditional airplane 50 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: wing to be, but they're slooped back and they have 51 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: a rounded edge to them. But then the Big twenty 52 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: one has actual pointy nose and more of the triangular 53 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: shaped wings. So it was more modern in that sense. 54 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,839 Speaker 1: But of course both planes are. They're very effective if 55 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: put into the right hands, and the Vietnamese had to 56 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,839 Speaker 1: use them because they were the planes that they had, 57 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: so they became very proficient with them, which was the 58 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: idea of the training. Now, there there were downfalls to 59 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: both planes. The Mix seventeen specifically, as Joe said, was 60 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: an older plane. It couldn't quite get up to Mock 61 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: one from what I understand, and also it had old 62 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: school hydraulic control or I take that back. It didn't 63 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: have hydraulic controls, which meant that when you were going 64 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: really fast, it was sluggish to respond because of course, 65 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: as we've talked about fly by wire, I got I 66 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: do this every time, I got it mixed up. But 67 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: you have to as hard as you can pull is 68 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: as much force as you're going to exert on the 69 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: mechanical linka exactly exactly, so that that slows them down 70 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: from high speed maneuvers, where the twenty ones are more 71 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: akin to the F four phantoms that the US were 72 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: flying at that time, which were considered you know, kind 73 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: of top of the line aircraft, at least fighter jets. 74 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: During the Vietnam Conflict, the U A signals Intelligence, which 75 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: is uses the acronym sick int, which just pronounces so well, 76 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: they tracked all of the pilots that they could, and 77 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: they did that by their call signs, because of course 78 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: they're eavesdropping on all of the radio communications. I mean, 79 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: that's what signals intelligence does. The other side is doing 80 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: a similar thing. It's just why you know, we actually 81 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: have you know, we actually have more discipline when it 82 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: comes to things like call signs. Apparently our pilots changed 83 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: their call sign every with every mission. Yeah, so you 84 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: might have you might have a nickname like Tom Cruise 85 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: and top Gun, but your actual call sign is not 86 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: going to be that nickname, and probably every time, yeah, 87 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: you're not gonna actually be they're not gonna be actually calling. Yeah, yeah, 88 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: exactly do they get to come up with them or 89 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: they I think they're assigned. Yeah, yeah, that's probably makes 90 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: more sense. It would be hard. It does make sense 91 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: because otherwise they know who's in the air and who's not. 92 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: You know, don't you don't want them knowing anything if 93 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: you can possibly help it. Well, but if you get 94 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: to pick your own, like every mission, it's like, all right, guys, 95 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: we're going out for a mission tomorrow. Everybody picked a 96 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: call sign and you can't be Archer again. Okay, yeah 97 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: that yeah, no, Well, but you know what's funny about 98 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: that is that we've apparently we've gotten much better about it. 99 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: But for a long time, during the Vietnam War, there 100 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: was a run that the US used to do every day, 101 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: the exact same course, at the exact same time, with 102 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: the exact same I mean to the minute, to the 103 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: point that the North Vietnamese knew exactly when they were 104 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: coming through and leverage that against them quite effectively and 105 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: took out a whole bunch of planes. And I can't 106 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: remember what operation that was in, but I mean, now 107 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: you it makes sense why we we switch it up 108 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: all the time. But then it apparently wasn't as big 109 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: of a deal. People didn't realize and how important that was. 110 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: We probably didn't think they had the capability, and all 111 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: of a sudden it turns out they acquired it on 112 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: the sly. Yeah. What happens here is, as we've said, 113 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: they're listening to the radio adder they're building histories and 114 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: identifying the different pilots, the U s intelligences of the 115 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: Vietnamese pilots, kind of building histories or dossiers of you know, 116 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: where they've been and what they've done right and what 117 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: they've done wrong, their their strengths awaknesses, and that allows 118 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: them to eventually become start tracking this one pilot in particular, 119 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: who we're talking about, which is Colonel tomb He had 120 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: taken out several US aircraft in the mid to late 121 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties and had become a bit of a boogeyman 122 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: for US pilots, and as the war would go on, 123 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: he would rack up more and more kills of US 124 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: aircraft and was considered a flying ace, which if you 125 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: don't know what a flying aces. To be considered an ace, 126 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: you have to generally speaking in this dirt. Depending on 127 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: the conflict, this can vary, but you have to have 128 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: taken out at least five enemy aircraft. If you take 129 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: out four, you're a good pilot, but you're not an ace. 130 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: These numbers, um seemed like a little low just to 131 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: the layman, right, So do we have an average of 132 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,119 Speaker 1: you know, how many flight how many aircraft and normal 133 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: pilot would take out in a conflict like this, Well, 134 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: there there's a lot of difficulty in that. It depends 135 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: on how target richer environment is. So in the Vietnam War, 136 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: in the beginning, the Vietnamese had about seven aircraft total 137 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: available to them, whereas the US had hundreds in the air. 138 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: So it's a target poor environment for the US and 139 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: a target rich environment for the Vietnamese. Now, as the 140 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: war would go on, the Vietnamese would get more more planes. 141 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: But again it's how many targets are available at any 142 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: one time for you to take down. So that's it's 143 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: it's a weird ballet. It's uh, you know, for them 144 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: typically are flying in formation and one big can come 145 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: over and just shoot an air to air missile. We're 146 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: gonna hit somebody. So it's kind of a shotgun kind 147 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: of thing. Really, I mean, I guess you're an ace, 148 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: but what do you do? You ran over, you know, 149 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: fire a missile with this group of as and hit 150 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: one of them. It's not the most you know, fantastic, 151 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: it's glorious according to Hollywood. But when it comes to 152 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: taking out your enemy, you did your job. Oh you 153 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: totally did. But uh And as far as like you know, 154 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: what's going on for air to eric kills these days, 155 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that there's nearly any of that going 156 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: on anymore. I mean, it doesn't seem like our planes 157 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: that they're talking these incredibly fast aircraft. It's kind of 158 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 1: hard to dog fight each other. And all I can 159 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: do is, like, you know, fire a missile at the guy, 160 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: and he's probably you can't even actually visually see him. 161 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: You can see on your radar or wherever. Okay, if 162 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: somebody over there click, you know, and so it's not 163 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: the dog fighting like you know they used to have 164 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: back in the good old days, shooting at each other 165 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: with you know, with machine guns and stuff like that. 166 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: I guess back in the World War two days they 167 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: would actually they would actually throw a hand gernades at 168 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: each other. They'd like try to fly over the they're 169 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: following fie paint white planes and stuff, and they like 170 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: actually just try to drop hand grenades. I say, one there, two, 171 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: I said to Okay, one, Okay, I was I was 172 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: asking this. I was like, I don't remember a whole 173 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: lot of biplane tomorrow. There probably was one or two, 174 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: but they didn't last didn't. So to answer my question, no, 175 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: we don't know what whatever is. Yeah, And because it 176 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: depends on the conflict, and I think it's I think 177 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: it's just been going down over time. Really, let's see 178 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: where was I? Um? Okay? Both? Well, So we're talking 179 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: about aces. So, like I said, you had to be 180 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: yet to take at least five enemy craft out to 181 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: be considered an ACE. And at the end of the war, 182 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: Tomb was recorded as having taken out thirteen US aircraft. 183 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: Now not all of those were airplanes with people in them. 184 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: There's something that is it's a oh god, it's a yeah, 185 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: it's a drone. There were two of them, and I 186 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: want to say they were called fireflies or fire plug 187 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: I can't remember which. And I read about them and 188 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: it didn't completely understand them. But I just want to 189 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: let you know that that's in there, so if anybody 190 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: goes out and starts reading about it, that is technically 191 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: an enemy or crafts. So we counted for the record. 192 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 1: Apparently the balloons count. I don't. I don't know, probably not. Yeah, 193 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: it's probably easy target, probably training targets for them. So 194 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: the there's interesting things here about Colonel tomb though, one 195 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: of which is that there were two images of his 196 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: aircraft that were circulated among US forces. The images, Just 197 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: to be clear, they were taken by other pilots, right. 198 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: I believe one of them was actually on the ground, 199 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: like somebody like somebody snapped a picture while it was 200 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: sitting on the ground. But I'm not I'm not a 201 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: positive because I couldn't find these images. I could find 202 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: images that were similar, but I couldn't find the same 203 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: ones with the same at least I don't think I 204 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: saw them with the same plane numbers, because the planes 205 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: had identifier numbers on him, as all aircraft do. And 206 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: the MiG seventeen had the number three zero two zero 207 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: on the nose, uh, and it had six stars on 208 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: the nose. And for people who aren't familiar with this, 209 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: the number of stars on the nose means the number 210 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: of kills. And then there was another image that was 211 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: a big twenty one that had the number four three 212 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: to six on the nose along with thirteen stars. So 213 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,599 Speaker 1: that's a lot of kills. But they're very two different aircraft. 214 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: And that's part of the confusion in this story because 215 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: that's not typically the way a pilot would operate. They 216 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: would fly a plane. They wouldn't fly multiple kinds of planes. No, 217 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: not usually, not not unless you know all the big 218 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: seventeens went away and then that it's time to move 219 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: Colonel tomb up to it's kind of desperate scenario, and 220 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: it and it represents the number of the aircraft took 221 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: down on the pilot right the stars. Typically that's not 222 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: the case. It's how many the pilot took down. Typically 223 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: it's the number that's pilot takes. So I mean, really, 224 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: what we're saying here is later this awesome pilot may 225 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: have been flying a better plane, right, it's possible. Yeah, 226 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: I wonder how that works. I assume that, like, say, 227 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: if you if you did fly, I got six kills 228 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: with you mixed you make seventeen and they were like, 229 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,599 Speaker 1: and then you graduate to one? Do they transfer the 230 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: the sex skills over? Yeah? I have a feeling that 231 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: I know the answer, but I'm gonna save that till later. 232 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: It seems just don't dry out the suspense. Seems like 233 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: it's only fair to transform over. You know, it seems 234 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: like that to me too. But but and then if not, 235 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: like maybe he did have the you know, twenty kills 236 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: to nineteen kills, yeah, six and yeah, let's jump back 237 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: to the official narrative here. By the way, what I've 238 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: been trying to run through is is kind of the 239 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: generally agreed upon official narrative of these things that are 240 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: in the story, and then when we get into theories 241 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: will parse into bits and pieces of it more deeply, 242 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: as year tend to do. But officially, Tom's career would 243 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: come to an end, and that date would officially be 244 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: May tenth, ninety two. On that day, Randy Duke Cunningham 245 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: and his co pilot Willie Irish Driscoll, who were both U. S. 246 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: Navy pilots, and they had recently just graduated from the 247 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: then newly formed top gun program. Again Tom Cruise to 248 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: the Dangers own. Well, yeah, so these guys had graduated 249 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: with the program. They're now in the air. It's made 250 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: ten oh. And people may recognize the name Randy Cunningham 251 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: because he was a U. S. Congressman. Uh and in 252 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: two thousand and five he was not so happily for him, 253 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: convicted of taking millions in ribes and sentenced to eight 254 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: years in prison. So if he was your congressman, I'm sorry, Yeah, 255 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: it's too bad for him, right, So I guess he 256 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: would have gotten out by now. I have not heard 257 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: anything about Randy Cunningham, to keep it that way. Yeah, 258 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: that's not surprising that we haven't heard anything from him. Well, 259 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: I hope it was smart enough to squirrel away some 260 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: of those millions of bribes. I have a feeling anyway, 261 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: pre bribe. Cunningham and Irish Driskell, we're both in a 262 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: F four Phantom on that day and they were in 263 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: a mission which was near Hannoi when they encountered several 264 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: Vietnamese People's Air Force aircraft, and it was a group 265 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: of it makes seventeens. As you can guess, a dog 266 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: fights ensued. All but one of the MiGs were taken out, 267 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: and then this fight takes out that takes place between 268 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: the remaining MiG and Cunningham and drisk All. Now Cunningham's 269 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: F four Phantom. It had aired air missiles by the 270 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: other thing. But of course it's faster, but it can't 271 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: do well at slow speeds. Makes seventeens are better at 272 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: slow speeds, but it has no missiles. All it's got 273 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: is thirty seven caliber and another I can't remember. The 274 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: other lighter caliber gun is something like that. It's got candy, 275 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: so it's it's shooting guns, and I don't remember. I 276 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: don't think the f R Fantom had a cannon, didn't. 277 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: I don't believe it had any guns. I don't remember 278 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: that when I was reading. I think that it relied 279 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: a lot on its missiles, because a lot is made 280 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: out about the fact that in the early years of 281 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: the conflict, the Phantom was plagued with tons and tons 282 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: of issues of faulty air to air missiles, either not 283 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: launching or just launching and not tracking their targets there was. 284 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: It was a giant fiasco for the Defense Department. So 285 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: I feel like it had the missiles, but I don't 286 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: remember off the top of my head, so I don't 287 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: want to commit to that because they're probably wrong. Yeah, 288 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: I think it had like it was a fighter bomber. 289 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: I think essentially drop bombs and fire missiles, but I 290 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: don't think the head of cannon. But if we're wrong, 291 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 1: somebody will let us here. Yeah, if one of those 292 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: guys that flew one of those things will send us 293 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: and up yep. So what happens here though, is, of course, 294 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: the fight goes back and forth. The MiGs tries to 295 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: slow the fight down so we can do better. Cunningham 296 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: has to hit the afterburner or not the after We 297 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: had to hit the gas, so we go fast. So 298 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,719 Speaker 1: this goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, 299 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: until he's eventually able to lock on with a sidewinder 300 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: missile and take out this final MiG seventeen, which he 301 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: says he watched burst apart in flames and fall to 302 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: the ground. The ground, I'll just say the canopy, and 303 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: that wasn't right now, but it fell to earth below him. 304 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: He and his co pilot, though, wouldn't escape unscathed. Very 305 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: shortly after that, in that same flight, actually they would 306 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: be hit by a surface to air missile. They would 307 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: fly out over the South China Sea, where they would 308 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: bail out and then eventually be rescued. Of course, because 309 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: that's what happens to the hero who is taking out 310 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: the scourge of the North Vietnamese skies. Colonel too, if 311 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: you're lucky, that's what happens. Yeah, usually not actually yeah, no, 312 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: there's sharks and stuff. Well, Cunningham t tells US intelligence 313 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: that he saw the number three zero two zero painted 314 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: on that big seventeen and so military and US military 315 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: intelligence says, yes, you took out Colonel tomb Good job, buddy. 316 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: Not only did you just get upgraded to a status 317 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: because that was your your kill, but you took out 318 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: this bad guy. Yea, and Jo disappears from the war. Yeah, 319 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: so there you go. So yeah, my sort of doubt 320 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: his story about seeing that number on the nose of 321 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: the plane. But then if Tom did suddenly you know, 322 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: not show up anymore, I guess you got him, took 323 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: his toys and left. Basically years later, there is a 324 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: Hungarian man named I'm gonna I hate, I hate pronouncing 325 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: this guy's name, Dr ist von topp er Sev, and 326 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: he would be he would go to Vietnam to research 327 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: the pilots of the Vietnamese People's Air Force, supposedly, And 328 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: we'll get into the supposedly later. And I assume about 329 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: years later. You mean what Hungary it was still under 330 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: basically Soviet domination. It was still a communist state, I 331 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: believe while they were still a communist state. This appears 332 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: to from the reading that I've done, been before people 333 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: from the West were let into Vietnam, because people from 334 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: the West were held out of the country for many, 335 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: many decades. But eventually they are historians would be allowed 336 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: in and they would come in and ask the same 337 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: question as the Hungarian doctor, which is, hey, um, so, 338 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: who was Colonel tomb to which they would all get 339 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: the same answer of yeah, who are you talking about? 340 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: There's no record of this guy. You don't know what 341 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: you're what you're saying. And for a guy who is 342 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: supposedly as good of a pilot and as good at 343 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: taking down enemy, it seems really weird that he dropped 344 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: out of the records completely and entirely. You know, maybe 345 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: they said him on a super secret mission and they 346 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: had to erase his name from the whole record. Maybe 347 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: save that for theories, Okay, Okay, So yeah, so this 348 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: flying ace, this war hero, and and believe me, the 349 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: Vietnamese loved to celebrate their war heroes. He disappears. So 350 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: it brings up what is our mystery, which is a 351 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: why is he not in the record? And be if 352 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: he was a real person, who was he? So was 353 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: he so super secret? Because yeah, if war hero, you 354 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: think they'd be celebrating them and have statues of them 355 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: in all kinds of stuff. All right, So that's our mystery. 356 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: So let's get into the theories. Okay, but first let's 357 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: take a quick break. Support for today's show comes from 358 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: Grove Grobe is an e commerce company that I like 359 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: because if they make it easy for me to find 360 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: the best natural products, take care of myself, my home, 361 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: my cats, and to make sure I never run out 362 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: of my stuff. They've got a lot of really good products, 363 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: Mrs Myers, seventh Generation, Real Simple, Tom's, etcetera, etcetera. And 364 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: I really like the Mrs Myers because it doesn't make 365 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: me break out and it looks really good in my bathroom. 366 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: As I said, I really like Mrs Myers a lot. 367 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: There's also this really cool wandering detrigent that's concentrated. It 368 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: comes in the recyclable container, and I really like about 369 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: it is that is to concentrate, it causts less to ship, 370 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: and it's smaller, takes up less space in my house, 371 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: so it's really the best. Um. Another another great thing 372 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: about Grow is they deliver everything right to your door 373 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: when you want it. They offer free shipping and free 374 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: return to no questions asked, and they have Grow guides 375 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: which are always available to answer your questions or at 376 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: outams to your next order if you run out. So 377 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: sign up for Global Collaborative at Grove dot ceo. That's 378 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: Grow dot co slash sideways and you will receive a 379 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: thirty dollars Mrs Myers gift set for free with your 380 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: order of twenty bucks or more. That's Grove dot ceo, 381 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: not com slash sideways, Grove dot ceo sideways. You won't 382 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: regret it and we're back. Yeah. So theory number one, Yeah, 383 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: that's there's a theory. There's well, actually believe it or not. 384 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: I've got what four or five in here. Never mind 385 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: your ghost theory, secret agent theory, don't forget that secret 386 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: agent theory. Yeah. Actually, this, this one is actually all 387 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: over the internet, especially on like aviation sites and Vietnam 388 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: Veteran system particular theory. No, this particular mystery. Yeah, I 389 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: got a lot of good information. There's a ton of 390 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: ton of information out there, although a lot of a 391 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: lot of the same information, but had a lot of 392 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: arguing because that's what forums are all about. Okay, So 393 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: theory number one is that Colonel tomb was in fact 394 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: a myth created accidentally by the US Signals Intelligence Group. 395 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: They got their signals crossed. Not good, not good for 396 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: SI to get their six crossed. So basically what it 397 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: is is that the theories that he never never actually existed, 398 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: and they made him up by accident. And there's a 399 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: couple of different ways that this could happen. Now, of course, 400 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: as we talked about earlier, to be a flaw, and 401 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: this is all backstory. I think we've covered some of this, 402 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: but sometimes people miss these bits. So I just want 403 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: to recover a little bit of territory, which is you 404 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: have to take down at least five enemy aircraft to 405 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: become a ACE, and the Vietnamese had dozen, over a 406 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: dozen aces, like we talked about, whereas the Americans only 407 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: had one ACE that was Randy cunning Am, an Irish driscal. 408 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 1: I really feel bad what Willie? That was his name? 409 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: Willie keep calling him Irish? I feel racist? Um, but 410 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: it's fun his name, not racism, but no, no. But 411 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: so the thing is is that it was the reason 412 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: that there were so many aces is for a US pilot, 413 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: you did a year of duty. That was your tour. 414 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: Was you spent a year in country and then you 415 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: would rotate back home and you would do training and 416 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: you'd be stationed somewhere by the way in that year. 417 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: You would not do three missions. No, no, nowhere, No, 418 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: not at all. But the thing was is that you 419 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: guys could ask to come to be stationed back in Vietnam, 420 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: and occasionally that happened, but the vast majority of them 421 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: did not. So it seems like it was pretty miserable 422 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: over there. For the most it was not. Well, nobody 423 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: really enjoys war. A few weirdos do, but you know 424 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: they're they're thankfully the minority. But the thing is is 425 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: that these guys is so they get about a year 426 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 1: to to try and rack up, you know, five kills. 427 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: Of course, for the North Vietnamese pilots their homes, they're 428 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: there for the whole war, so they have a lot 429 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: of flights and a lot of time to rack up 430 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: all these kills. So that's the reason that there's kind 431 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: of that imbalance in terms of the number of aces 432 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: from one side to the other. Another reason that there 433 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: would and this is a factor as to why there's 434 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: so many North Vietnamese aces, is ground based radar. Remember 435 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: that planes at that time. Today we're all used to 436 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: the fancy modern fighter craft we see in the movies, 437 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: and they've got radar built and they've got every kind 438 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: of device built in that they can to see around 439 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: them much farther than the pilot can just see with 440 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: the naked eye. Well, plus we've also got airborne radars 441 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: beyond there's kinds of things, but that is not so 442 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: much the case in the late sixties, in early seventies 443 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: and MiG seventeens didn't have anything built in, so they 444 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: were reliant upon what the naked eye could see as 445 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: well as ground based radar. And the US we knew 446 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: about the ground based radar. But the U. S forces 447 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: never actually went after those ground based radar installations as 448 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: in to take them out and handicap those MiG seventeens 449 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: because there were other nations helping. We talked about the 450 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: Soviets were there because they were helping with training and equipment, 451 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: and they were coming and they were going to those 452 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: radar installations and helping out. The Chinese were doing the 453 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: same thing because again Soviets and the Chinese are both 454 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: under communist governance, and the North Vietnamese they wanted to 455 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: unify their country and communism was the system they agreed 456 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 1: upon was the right one. So there together for human 457 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 1: it is. But this means that you help your buddy out. Well, 458 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: of course, but and that's why that one and that's 459 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: what they're trying to do all kinds of countries all 460 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: around the world, you know, helped them to become comedies. 461 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: And but yeah, and of course they didn't want to 462 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: bomb the radar stations because they might kill they might 463 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: kill Ivan, or they might kill the adviser, and that 464 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 1: just opens up all another can of worms of conflict. Well, 465 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: this has been this has been like you know, a 466 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: big bone of contention about Vietnam forever. Is that is 467 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: that our side was way too reticent about stuff like that. 468 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: I mean, we should have bombed those stations, taken out 469 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: those radars, you know. Yeah, I understand what you're saying 470 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: from the standpoint of to quote unquote when the war. 471 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: I understand that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we should have 472 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: done that, you know. And as if their Soviet squawky 473 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: just say, I'm sorry, you guys were in a war zone. 474 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: What did you expect? You know? Yeah? But of course, 475 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: I mean, and this is just you know, the old 476 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: saying goes, generals always fight the last war. And then 477 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: the previous war corps had been Korea. Remember what happened there? 478 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: You know, I was acting initially getting knocked on our heels. 479 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 1: We came back big time, invaded, and we're all really 480 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: on the verge of triumph in North Korea. And then 481 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,959 Speaker 1: the Chinese invaded, and suddenly we're talking about the war 482 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: got a lot bigger, and so, like I said, that, 483 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: that colored all the thinking about Vietnam, and it's it's 484 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: really a shame too, because you know, we could have 485 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: probably had a better outcome in Vietnam if we hadn't 486 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: had that sort of that tip for tat mentality and 487 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: that reticence about about attacking the North that they, by 488 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: the way, didn't feel towards us, They just didn't like us. Yeah, 489 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: so so okay, so so this is this is going on, 490 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: and this is one of the factors why the MiG 491 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: seven the MiGs were the effective, because they had that 492 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: other form of detection out there. Uh, there's some things 493 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: that also lean into the theory of this guy didn't exist. 494 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: The next on is that the name tune or tune 495 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: and by the way, the spelling on these is t 496 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: o mb toumb like a cryptotune or tuned to again 497 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: as in cartoon. Neither of those names are Vietnamese names. 498 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: They're not in the lexicon at all. There were there 499 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: were at least one or two pilots named Plon. But 500 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: let's tu a n transliteration plan which which maybe over 501 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: the rate it could come out sending kind of like tune, 502 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: you know. And so, but I don't think any of 503 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: those guys scored anywhere near thirteen kills, not that I'm 504 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: aware of. There's a there's a big list. You can 505 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: actually go on the internet and find this giant list. 506 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: I mean I remember Devin and I were talking about 507 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: the different the names and how similar they were as 508 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: you dropped down the list, but none of them really 509 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: seem to fit the moniker of this guy. Uh. Now, 510 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: there are people that believe that this is what happened, 511 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: is that U S. Signals Intelligence is listening and they 512 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: hear chatter of North Vietnamese pilots, and they hear a 513 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: name that they don't know, and they're not sure how 514 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: to interpret or write it down. How has it spelled 515 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: something like that, And so what they do is they 516 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: do their best and they write down the equivalent of 517 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: what they think it is, which is wrong. And this 518 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: happens several times, and suddenly this pilot named Tomb or 519 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: Tune is born out of a badly transcribed set of 520 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: conversations by ground control or by listening intelligence, the radio 521 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: intelligence guys. So it's it's a complete screw up that 522 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: just happened to line up. The other way is that 523 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: it could have happened, and we'll explain some I'll give 524 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: me a second here. And there's some examples of this. 525 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: Is there are times where they are trying to figure 526 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: out who's in the air and whoever it is just 527 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: isn't giving a name that they can use to assign 528 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: to them. And so what signals intelligence has been known 529 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: to do is to assign them a name, just make 530 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: one up out a whole cloth right there and say 531 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: that's Timmy. And then that operator that signed a name 532 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: like like you know, ends this tour goes back overseas. 533 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: Somebody looks at his log books later and doesn't realize 534 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: this right right, yeah, and doesn't realize that he just 535 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: assigned the name to him. Correct. He doesn't realize that 536 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: Timmy isn't a real pilot. Timmy is a moniker for 537 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: a made up name of somebody who doesn't They just 538 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: don't know who it is. And there are historical accountings 539 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: of this having happened in the past. If we look 540 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: back at World War two U S forces in Guadalcanal, 541 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: they started, um, they started calling, oh God, what is it? 542 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: What is it? What is what it? It was Japanese 543 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: pilots who would start running night night missions, and they 544 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: of course didn't know who they were, and they started 545 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: nickname aiming those pilots washer Machine Charlie. And that was 546 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: because they were flying two engine planes and those engines 547 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: were slightly out of sync. So if you think about 548 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: if you've ever been on a two prop plane, exactly 549 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: a two prop plane, it's just it's very consistent. But 550 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: when they're not, they do make kind of that bum 551 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: bum bum bum bum boo boom back and forth, rocking 552 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: washer machine noise, so that they nicknamed him washing machine Charlie. 553 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: In the European theater, there was bed check Charlie, who 554 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,719 Speaker 1: was German pilots who were known to go out just before, 555 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: just before or just after dusk and run night runs 556 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: as well, and the name was was given because it 557 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: was just after lights out these guys would show up, 558 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: and these guys were they the U S Forces hated 559 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: them because if you knew that bed Check Charlie or 560 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: washer Machine Charlie were coming, you just had to lay 561 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: there all night long. You didn't know if the bombs 562 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: were going to get you or if they were just 563 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: going to explode around or near or because they their 564 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: accuracy was crap, but it was it really struck a 565 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: note of fear in those men's on the ground. Yeah, 566 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: but that does seem like a better way to name 567 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: people that you don't know, instead of making up a 568 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, colonel name like, yeah, I mean it sounds 569 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: a little made up, right, um, and if it's Colonel 570 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: Tune then it makes even more more Even somebody was 571 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: being funny, yeah that it was like a play on 572 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: cartoon or whatever. But you know, assigning some name that 573 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: nobody could ever think, oh yeah, that's the real name 574 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: of that pilot, like washing machine Charlie, Like nobody's ever 575 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: gonna look at a record and be like, wow, yeah 576 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: it was a weird made washing machine Charlie's did the 577 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: did the Japanese have I didn't know washing machines were 578 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: in use? Yeah, so that just I mean, you know, 579 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: for me, that doesn't really follow. But yeah, yeah, it's 580 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: like and I don't think that if his name actually, 581 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: if they have signed a name tomb t O m B, 582 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: I wouldn't see them. I couldn't see them quite as 583 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: signing that to another pilot because you're kind of you're 584 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: kind of giving him, you know, you're signing this name 585 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,399 Speaker 1: that sounds pretty badass, yeah, you know, yeah, and we're 586 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: not going to us Yeah, pretty bad ass. So you know, 587 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: just like you know, you're not going to name some 588 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: other you know, Colonel Deaths or arg Yeah, you know, 589 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: or anything like that. You're you're not gonna be like, oh, 590 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: his this unknown guy the punisher, Yeah, exactly, you're not 591 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: gonna do that. You're gonna call him something, you know, 592 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: you're gonna do ride him. You're gotta something exactly, Colonel 593 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: Choopy or Colonel Sideways or something like that or not 594 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: that one that's pretty badass when actually it's pretty hokey. Yeah, okay, 595 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: I've met that colonel. I see what I'm saying it. 596 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: But at the same time, of course it's over the radio. 597 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 1: He's speaking foreign language, and you know, so Tomb could 598 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: have sounded like Tomb maybe I don't know. Yeah, no, 599 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of ways that you can 600 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: you can try and enunciate that to make it make sense, 601 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: but it doesn't make sense. That's so it's too close 602 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: to the real thing for us West, you know, English 603 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: speakers to just ascribe that to a name from another 604 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: language that we don't quite understand. The other problem with 605 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: this theory is the fact that, and we talked about 606 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,919 Speaker 1: this a little bit earlier, pilots didn't train and fly 607 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: a lot in different aircraft. If you were a big 608 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: seventeen pilot, the program, was you flew the MiG seventeen 609 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 1: to be the most proficient MiG seventeen pilot you could be, 610 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: not you flew a MiG seventeen, and oh, by the way, 611 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: we're also going to train you on a MiG twenty 612 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: one and maybe something else, and you'll just be kind 613 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: of an okay pilot overall, but not really good in 614 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: all any one of them. That that wasn't the way 615 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: it works. That's really true. It's like, because yeah, I mean, 616 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: it takes a long time to get really good at 617 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: an aircraft, and it's like, if you switch to the 618 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: twenty one, you're throwing away a lot of good experience. 619 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you're taking some of with you obviously, but 620 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: you're throwing a lot away too, So you know, I mean, no, 621 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I totally agree with that. I think in 622 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: kind of theory, for the sake of argument, you could say, 623 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, this guy's wracked up six seven kills in 624 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: this kind of crappy graduate and maybe and you know, 625 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: who knows, maybe he one day was like, oh yeah, 626 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: let me take that other one out for a spin, 627 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: and was equally good, and they were like, you can 628 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 1: have this awesome one if you think you can kill more. 629 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: It could have been I guess suppose in that case, 630 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: let me take it up to see if I can 631 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: kill a few American pilots. That he did, so okay, 632 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: I guess you get it, get on. But typically that 633 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: was not in the Soviets. I think we're running their 634 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: air force and Soviet doctrine at all. And if you 635 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: if you remember keep in mind though, it's it's the controls. 636 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: You're not going to be the same from one model 637 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: to the next. It's like getting into I'm just gonna 638 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: pick on Chevy. You get into the little itty bitty 639 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: Chevy card a little two seater that is a pregnant 640 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: roller skate, and then you jump up into their giant 641 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: s u V. The general basics are the same, but 642 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: things you're not exactly the same, and they're in different places, 643 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 1: and it's all gonna be a little different, and you're 644 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: gonna be really not that good in the big one 645 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,959 Speaker 1: when you just got out of the pregnant roller skate 646 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 1: one at yeah. Well, and and that's why I mean, 647 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, for the sake of Argiament, it's I 648 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: guess it's technically feasible, but highly unlikely. Ye though, I 649 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: guess I could see the kind of accidental They just 650 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: assigned that call name to any pilot they don't know 651 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 1: that kills somebody, you know, And then that would make 652 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: sense that it was kind of it was either plane 653 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: they didn't they oftentimes didn't know the call sign of 654 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: the pilots that were actually, you know, striking their aircraft 655 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: and they're just That would also explain why it was 656 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: tomb right, because they were like, oh craft, this unnamed 657 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: to you know, the tomb guy came again and took 658 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: down one of our air craft. Well but you know, 659 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: but you you you understand what I'm saying. I get it, 660 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: I get it. So that could be an alternate on 661 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 1: this that it was an accidental creation. It's a moniker 662 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: given to a pilot who scores a kill, but we 663 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: don't know who that pilot is, and it gets repeated 664 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: over and over, and as the beginning of the theory said, 665 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: then becomes when somebody else finds the log book a 666 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: year later, holy cow, this guy is a badass. Or 667 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: you know, actually, this is another theory that's out there 668 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: in the same hole. It was a myth thing and 669 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: I found this theory on twenty one century Socialism dot Com. 670 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: Yeah I did, for real. Yeah, I don't make this stuff. 671 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: That theory is that the Colonel Tuone was actually was 672 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: actually a creation of the U. S. Navy whose fancies 673 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 1: were and they created Colonel Tomb and created this big 674 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: legend and then had him killed as a big morale booster. 675 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: It's like that this legendary pilot and we killed him off. Yeah, 676 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: I I can see that. I can understand it. It 677 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: seems pretty weak, and it seems kind of hard to mean, 678 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: that's that would take a long time to build up, 679 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: especially when you consider how often guys are cycling in 680 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 1: and out of their tours of duty. I mean, you 681 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: would have to you'd have to let that run for 682 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: at least a year, if not too before you pull 683 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: the final lever and kill him off. Yeah, I know. 684 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: That's that's that's kind of the whole thing about about it. 685 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: I think I think twenty one century Socialism dot Com 686 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: would be point was that you know, here it is here, 687 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: here's the perfidious you know us once again, you know, 688 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: coming up with this big lie you know about Yeah, 689 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: I kinda I kind of suspect they probably made it 690 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: up or some commy made it up. I don't know 691 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: who knows. Yeah, that was a perfect lead into the 692 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:03,240 Speaker 1: next theory, because the next theory is that actually Colonel 693 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: tomb was a piece of propaganda, but he was a 694 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: piece of propaganda created by the vietname the North Vietnamese. Yeah, 695 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: kind of like carrots. Yeah, carrots, carrots. Well, I don't 696 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,399 Speaker 1: remember during which war it was, but it was right 697 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: when the US had come up with night vision technology, 698 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: radar technology. But they when people they just started doing 699 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: this propaganda thing in America where they were like, carrots 700 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,359 Speaker 1: will give you great vision, and that's not like really 701 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: actually true, but they they were trying to cover up 702 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: the fact that they had this advanced technology and that's 703 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: why they were being successful overseas during the war. So 704 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: they just kind of went with it. And now it's 705 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: like part of the guys have great vision because they 706 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 1: all eat carrots. Yeah, I remember talking about I remember 707 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 1: that when I was a kid. That was that was 708 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, the accepted wisdom is that 709 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,959 Speaker 1: carrots were good for your eyes. Yeah they're not. They're 710 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: not bad for your eyes. Carrots are not going to 711 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,919 Speaker 1: hurt you, actually give you like supervision, and you won't 712 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: go blind if you don't eat them, so you might 713 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 1: depends on how else are eating. Okay, don't don't listen 714 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: to that, poison girls. The theory is. The theory is 715 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: that indeed the North Vietnamese made this particular pilot up, 716 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,359 Speaker 1: as Joe would say, out of whole cloth. And they 717 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: did so because, as we've already established, we were listening 718 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: to them, and they knew we were listening to them, 719 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: so they said, hey, why don't we go ahead and 720 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,240 Speaker 1: make some crap up because nothing screws up the enemy 721 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 1: then a giant stinking pile of bold that we make 722 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 1: up out of nowhere. Well, and it's not wouldn't be 723 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 1: that hard. So on all these different runs, you know 724 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: you send us, one of the pilots is just named 725 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,319 Speaker 1: Colonel Tomb, you know, just that simple. Yeah, it looks 726 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 1: like Colonel Tomb is just everywhere. Well, and the other 727 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 1: thing that that they can do is they can and 728 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 1: what would be easy to help leverage this is that 729 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: there was always a commander of the squadron, and that 730 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: commander didn't always go up. But let's say that they 731 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: made the gag that if the commander is not actually 732 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 1: in the air physically. You say he's in the air, 733 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,240 Speaker 1: and you call him something that then is badly interpreted. 734 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: And that's again we're going back to this, you know, 735 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,720 Speaker 1: this interpretation of a name that is given. And maybe 736 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 1: they had a half dozen different names that they use 737 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: and Tomb just happened to be the one that stuck 738 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 1: for the US. Because it turns out Colonel Pinky wasn't 739 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 1: all that scary of a name. You know, it could 740 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 1: have been an inadvertent thing on the part of the 741 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: North Vietnamese. It might turn out the Colonel Tomb is 742 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: kind of you know, Vietnamese military slang for venereal disease 743 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,440 Speaker 1: set for example. So the pilots are out in their 744 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: bombing around or whatever, and you know, they're killing a 745 00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,879 Speaker 1: little time in their way there, and one him says, yeah, 746 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 1: it's like I'm getting another visit from got another visit 747 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: from Colonel Tomb, So you know, and so maybe that's it. 748 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: Maybe that's all it was. And that is the dirtiest 749 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: answer I have founded this story yet, and I like 750 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: it a lot. I was gonna say, maybe it was 751 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: something they were competing for, Like whoever on that rum 752 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: gets most kills gets to be called Colonel tomb for 753 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,879 Speaker 1: the next run. That's true, and then that helps also 754 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,280 Speaker 1: explain how they racked up so many kills under that moniker. 755 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: It's possible. I do have to say, though, there is 756 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:34,880 Speaker 1: a gigantic problem with this theory, and that is that 757 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: the North Vietnamese government, or the Vietnamese government in general, 758 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: because they're a unified country now, does not let any 759 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,880 Speaker 1: opportunity to promote the deeds of its patriots to pass 760 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 1: them by. And if this guy were as proficient and 761 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 1: good as the records in the stories say, then he 762 00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 1: should have had as Joe said, earlier statues erected. And 763 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: I and we've talked about this on another episode, and 764 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: you two know, is that I just got back from Vietnam. 765 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: I was in the North, I was in the South, 766 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: and I saw plaqueards and billboards accounting to the deeds 767 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 1: of everyday people during this conflict. And granted it was 768 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: the fifty year memorials or anniversary, so they were putting 769 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 1: out more of this, but very I mean, what we've 770 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: been considered little acts of heroism were made giant scale. 771 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: So this guy that is now on a giant scale 772 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: of heroism of beating back the Americans. There should have 773 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 1: been a lot of stuff. They wouldn't just pass the 774 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,480 Speaker 1: opportunity by to to tout, to to trot him out 775 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,959 Speaker 1: and say, look at our great pilot. Um. I don't 776 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,439 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I don't understand how that follows this theory, 777 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: because isn't this theory that he was total boogeyman made 778 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: up by the Vietnamese. It is, But if if he 779 00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 1: was made, it doesn't make sense that they would have 780 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 1: made him because they want They would gravitate, and they 781 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,959 Speaker 1: would grab, and they would they would elevate anybody who 782 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: was doing good on their side. So it seems weird 783 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:11,879 Speaker 1: that the architect of the scheme would at least get 784 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,959 Speaker 1: a note something to that effect. Ye, the other body 785 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 1: would have got recognition. The other problem I have with 786 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: this series too, is that you make that this this 787 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: big scary boogeyman to scare the pants off the American 788 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: pilots and stuff. You don't kill him off, right, and 789 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: they killed them off? Why would they do that? Well, 790 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,560 Speaker 1: I mean, they may not have killed them off. It 791 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: may have actually just gotten to a point where they 792 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: found out through their moles in the U. S. Intelligence 793 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 1: that the US thought they had actually gotten Colonel too, 794 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: because they had because he shot down the right number, 795 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,440 Speaker 1: because that was one of the planes that was identified 796 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,799 Speaker 1: as him. And they thought, all right, let's just let 797 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: us let them. This is too much, this has gotten 798 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: out of hand. Let's just let them. Maybe well, and 799 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 1: there's some pilots that are that were believed to be too, 800 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,319 Speaker 1: and this is we're kind of going off script here, 801 00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:57,879 Speaker 1: and that's fine because we do this all the time. 802 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,719 Speaker 1: There was so at least one, if not two other 803 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: pilots that for a long time were believed to have 804 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 1: been tomb and those guys were actually retired from the 805 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 1: pilot seat. They were taken out of the air by 806 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: the Vietnamese arm or military and said, listen, you were 807 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: too valuable to us. You have to train the next 808 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,680 Speaker 1: generation of pilots. And so then they became a trainer. 809 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,319 Speaker 1: And these guys there's I mean, if you look through 810 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: the records, you can find you know, this guy retired 811 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: after the war to hear and did this, and this 812 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 1: one did that. But again he we know where those 813 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,879 Speaker 1: guys were, and they're talked about. They didn't just disappear, 814 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,279 Speaker 1: so it just it seems weird that they would just 815 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 1: invent him and then let him go. And I guess 816 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 1: my problem with it is that if they did invent 817 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: him and then they let him die, what a better 818 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,919 Speaker 1: way to stick a finger in the bad guy's eye 819 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,400 Speaker 1: to then to say later on, oh, hey, by the way, 820 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, Colonel Tomb, he was total crap. We made 821 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: him up, and we're gonna now celebrate the fact that 822 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: we fooled you with this giant campaign of crap Sam 823 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:22,800 Speaker 1: Uncle Sam. Yeah, yeah, but well Uncle Sam must be 824 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: used to it by now. Um. Yeah. So I'm not 825 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,800 Speaker 1: buying this, Sari. And for the reason that they wouldn't 826 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: kill him off, Yeah, I just don't buy it, all right, 827 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 1: So it's it's a it's a bad TV plot line. Yeah, 828 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: anything else on this particular one devon cool? Okay, Well, 829 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 1: let's go on to theory number three, which is that 830 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,960 Speaker 1: Colonel Tomb was in fact real, but he was not 831 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: a Vietnamese pilot. In matter of fact, he was one 832 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: of their allies pilots. As we talked about earlier, both 833 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,840 Speaker 1: the Chinese and the Soviets were in country and helping 834 00:47:55,840 --> 00:48:02,720 Speaker 1: the North Vietnamese. And I mean, as with equipment and advisors. 835 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,120 Speaker 1: And we do know that in at least one other war, 836 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:11,000 Speaker 1: which was the Korean War, there were Soviet pilots fighting 837 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,560 Speaker 1: in that in the air. And we do know also 838 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:20,680 Speaker 1: that in the Vietnam conflict there were Soviet um Soviet 839 00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 1: guys running different battle stations and battalions on the ground. 840 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: So it's it's probable that this guy would have been 841 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,920 Speaker 1: and you know, from another country who was a neighbor 842 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: country that was an ally country. Of course, nobody's ever 843 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 1: come forward. Now, the Soviets, they're pretty big on coming 844 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:44,200 Speaker 1: forward and taken um credit for what they've done, so 845 00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: it seems funny that they didn't do it. The Chinese 846 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,600 Speaker 1: are a little less so, at least in the past. 847 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,040 Speaker 1: I assume that they were communicating air to air in 848 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,319 Speaker 1: Vietnamese correct. Yeah, as far as I'm aware it was, 849 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,720 Speaker 1: there was no there was no Slavic language in there, 850 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:03,440 Speaker 1: or no traditional Chinese or Mandarin in there, So as 851 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,440 Speaker 1: far as I'm aware, it was all in Vietnamese. So 852 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,680 Speaker 1: I and so I don't know. I mean, I'm assuming 853 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: that Chinese, a Chinese person would have an easier time 854 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: learning Vietnamese in a Russian, But I don't know, or 855 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:20,000 Speaker 1: at least speaking it without a heavy accent. But yeah, 856 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 1: I think that it is a similar foundation. Um. Actually, 857 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: I know they're a similar foundation because vietname, the Vietnamese language, 858 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:34,360 Speaker 1: and the Chinese language do a threadback like five hundred 859 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,799 Speaker 1: plus years ago before they split apart, and then Vietnamese 860 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,160 Speaker 1: do have Chinese characters as kind of decorative symbols to 861 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,720 Speaker 1: represent things, although from what I understand, they can't read 862 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: them because they read their language, not the Chinese language. 863 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, it is possible. It's possibly, what you're saying, 864 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,280 Speaker 1: more likely Chinese than Soviet. Yeah. But but just because 865 00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,239 Speaker 1: somebody's Soviet doesn't mean they can't learn to fluently eco 866 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 1: language other than their own. I'm just talking about I'm 867 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,959 Speaker 1: just talking about speaking it so well with so little 868 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,839 Speaker 1: accents that the guy, the guy listening to the other hand, 869 00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,879 Speaker 1: can't tell that you're a foreigner. You know. I would 870 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 1: just think the Chinese would have a better chance of 871 00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,279 Speaker 1: getting away with that than I don't know. But but 872 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,280 Speaker 1: the thing is is, again, nobody has ever come forward 873 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:24,040 Speaker 1: and made a claim you would I mean, unless they 874 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,440 Speaker 1: did indeed die in the conflict, But even then, you 875 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,680 Speaker 1: would think their government would say, oh, hey, uncle Sam, 876 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,520 Speaker 1: we pumped you. I mean, unless it was you know, 877 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,680 Speaker 1: Russia and they were, you know, coming out of this thing, 878 00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,560 Speaker 1: they were like, oh, well, maybe it doesn't really behoove 879 00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,200 Speaker 1: us for relations to admit that this guy who killed 880 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,759 Speaker 1: a bunch of their people was actually our guy. Maybe 881 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 1: it actually politically makes more sense for us to just 882 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,600 Speaker 1: keep that under wraps and not really you know, talk 883 00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,040 Speaker 1: about it, and that that would explain why both countries 884 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,120 Speaker 1: would then kind of sweeping under Vietnamese don't want to say, oh, yeah, 885 00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,360 Speaker 1: their best guy, he wasn't our guy, and like you're saying, 886 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,680 Speaker 1: the Soviets really don't want to bring light to China. 887 00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the politics are a thing that 888 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,840 Speaker 1: we have, but I mean, you know, that's just the 889 00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:10,319 Speaker 1: diplomacy is a thing that we have to take into 890 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,240 Speaker 1: consideration here as well, because you know, it's it's certainly 891 00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: possible that at that time in the history that they 892 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,320 Speaker 1: just thought no. I think that especially from the Soviet 893 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: point of view there, their long term plan has always 894 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:28,400 Speaker 1: been about you know, bringing American basically bringing American opinions 895 00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,160 Speaker 1: of themselves as low as possible, and it's been a 896 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,560 Speaker 1: long term project, and so a reality TV they're doing 897 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,880 Speaker 1: their job. Oh they're there. And look at our universities 898 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,719 Speaker 1: there is working well and so the U. And so 899 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,359 Speaker 1: the thing about it is is, from that point of view, 900 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:44,800 Speaker 1: what is it better to have the American public believe 901 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,280 Speaker 1: they got their butts kicked by a combination of the Soviets, 902 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,320 Speaker 1: Chinese and Vietnamese or they got their butts kicked by 903 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,520 Speaker 1: just the Vietnamese. What what serves your purposes better? Yeah, definitely, 904 00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,719 Speaker 1: just depends a long term plan. You're absolutely right. Yeah, okay, Oak, 905 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,720 Speaker 1: Let's go on to what is actually our last theory 906 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,399 Speaker 1: and the Yeah, we raced through the beginning and then 907 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,560 Speaker 1: we drug out through this. So the last theory is 908 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,040 Speaker 1: that Colonel Tomb was not a pilot, not a single 909 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:25,000 Speaker 1: pilot anyway, but instead multiple pilots, several different pilots. Yeah, 910 00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:29,480 Speaker 1: wrong script. So there there are quite a few, as 911 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:33,520 Speaker 1: we talked about before, viet North Vietnamese pilots who had 912 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: been considered aces or scored records to be aces, and 913 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,279 Speaker 1: I have three of them listed here because these are 914 00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:44,040 Speaker 1: kind of the top three contenders who may have been 915 00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:49,480 Speaker 1: mishmashed together to create Colonel Tomb. So there's Wind van 916 00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:53,279 Speaker 1: Cock who has nine kills, there's Wind van Bay with 917 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,880 Speaker 1: seven kills, and Wind Doc Sat with six kills. So 918 00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:02,279 Speaker 1: these three guys right here, or that is uh sixteen 919 00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 1: twenty two kills between three pilots right there, and they 920 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,160 Speaker 1: flew different planes, but it's possible that they may have 921 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:16,120 Speaker 1: been melded and mashed together. And the reason that some 922 00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,440 Speaker 1: of that is is if you remember those photos of 923 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,040 Speaker 1: the airplanes that I told you before had been circulated. 924 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,600 Speaker 1: So there's the the MiG seventeen number three zero two 925 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:29,040 Speaker 1: zero with the six stars, and then make the MiG 926 00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,279 Speaker 1: twenty one with number four three two six that had 927 00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:37,240 Speaker 1: thirteen stars on its nose. Well, I held this little 928 00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,680 Speaker 1: fact back when we talked about it in the beginning. 929 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:44,480 Speaker 1: But in a traditional sense, at least the way I 930 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,480 Speaker 1: think about it, I think most Westerners do, and especially 931 00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 1: because we watch movies and TV. The number of stars 932 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,160 Speaker 1: on the nose of a plane denotes the number of kills, 933 00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:59,040 Speaker 1: and those number of kills are to the soul pilot 934 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,680 Speaker 1: or like copilot team that fly that particular bird. Because yeah, 935 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,160 Speaker 1: in our military, the pilot or the or the team 936 00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:10,239 Speaker 1: get the same plane always, that's their plane. Well that 937 00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,440 Speaker 1: that's not the way that it worked in the Vietnam conflict, 938 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 1: because the Vietnamese People's air force a lot of planes 939 00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:23,360 Speaker 1: and a glut of pilots. So and this is kind 940 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:27,440 Speaker 1: of makes sense from a communist state of you of 941 00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, because we share everything, so it's everybody's and 942 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,600 Speaker 1: that means that everybody gets the victory. And so instead 943 00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:41,040 Speaker 1: of a single plane having a single pilot with X 944 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:45,600 Speaker 1: number of kills, you had a single plane with X 945 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,600 Speaker 1: number of kills, so three or four different pilots, three 946 00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:50,759 Speaker 1: or four or five, six different pilots, so each guy 947 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,880 Speaker 1: could have taken down one enemy aircraft and that plane 948 00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,359 Speaker 1: looks like it's flown by one seriously skilled pilot, and 949 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,640 Speaker 1: that's the their system worked. So suddenly you can see 950 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,719 Speaker 1: where the confusion of looking at the numbers on the 951 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:12,080 Speaker 1: actual nose cone and how that could be recorded to 952 00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,719 Speaker 1: the Western I this happens. So, yeah, we're hearing a 953 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:18,880 Speaker 1: lot about this Colonel tomb but we don't actually know 954 00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:20,880 Speaker 1: how many kills he's got. And then somebody up but 955 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:24,200 Speaker 1: he seems to be the most deadliest of them of 956 00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,880 Speaker 1: the ball, and then somebody spots us thing somewhere in 957 00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:30,400 Speaker 1: a photograph or wherever their teen stars, and thinks that 958 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,399 Speaker 1: must be the famous Colonel Tune. Yeah, me, whichever one 959 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,520 Speaker 1: it is, You're you're not wrong in saying Tune or 960 00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,359 Speaker 1: two must be the infamous tomb because oh my god, 961 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,400 Speaker 1: look at all those stars. Yeah. Is there a possibility 962 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,960 Speaker 1: that their code name, their call signs were actually assigned 963 00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,960 Speaker 1: to their planes, not the pilots themselves. I do not 964 00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,120 Speaker 1: know the answer to that, to be quite honest, I 965 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:55,200 Speaker 1: had not thought of that particular angle. I had had 966 00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:59,839 Speaker 1: the idea that it was possible, and this may not 967 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,879 Speaker 1: be right, but I'd had the idea that maybe when 968 00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:07,440 Speaker 1: a plane went down, they reassigned the number to another plane, 969 00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:11,399 Speaker 1: and then that plane continued on with you know, new 970 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,040 Speaker 1: with a new set of stars. But of course, if 971 00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:18,319 Speaker 1: you see this makes seventeen thirty with six stars, and 972 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,880 Speaker 1: then you see it with four stars, and then you 973 00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,520 Speaker 1: see it again with five, three stars, whatever, you could 974 00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,000 Speaker 1: start to think that the numbers are stacking up and 975 00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,440 Speaker 1: something's confusing. But I don't know. This is it's, by 976 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,520 Speaker 1: the way, total speculation. Well I guess guess, yeah, I 977 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,719 Speaker 1: mean I guess it just a little bit would The 978 00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:38,440 Speaker 1: reason that I would suggest that is, you know, they 979 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,160 Speaker 1: only had so many planes, but they also had like 980 00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,320 Speaker 1: a bunch of teams that went out in different planes. 981 00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,879 Speaker 1: And I almost wonder if they just always wrote, okay there, 982 00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:47,920 Speaker 1: all right. You know these two pilots, this pilot and 983 00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,680 Speaker 1: co pilot team are assigned to this call sign airplane, 984 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,440 Speaker 1: which makes it harder to track the actual pilots because 985 00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,959 Speaker 1: they knew that other people were listening. So it's they're 986 00:56:58,000 --> 00:56:59,880 Speaker 1: just tracking the planes at that point. And then you 987 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,520 Speaker 1: just are never saying who everybody who's on that mission, 988 00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,680 Speaker 1: and everybody who's on the ground, you know, knows who's 989 00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,280 Speaker 1: in what plane. I don't know anything. This is total speculation. 990 00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:13,560 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I like the idea, except that 991 00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:19,160 Speaker 1: I have read accounting that talk about the fact that 992 00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:24,760 Speaker 1: sometimes pilots would melt down in the seat when another 993 00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,160 Speaker 1: pilot would go down, and they would they would break 994 00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:31,160 Speaker 1: their their communications cycle and suddenly start using the proper 995 00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:35,920 Speaker 1: names and so but but that's still but but what 996 00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:37,880 Speaker 1: I what I'm getting at, though, is that I think 997 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:42,600 Speaker 1: that they started out using whatever they're assigned call sign was, 998 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:47,040 Speaker 1: and then using you know, your actual names. So but 999 00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,600 Speaker 1: not man, but that would still follow if Iceman was 1000 00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,200 Speaker 1: the plane and people are freaking out because ice Man's 1001 00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:55,520 Speaker 1: going down, and then suddenly they're talking about, oh my god, 1002 00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:00,160 Speaker 1: John's dead. Still follows right, because they're still freaking out out, 1003 00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:03,160 Speaker 1: they break character or break whatever protocol, and they're just 1004 00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:05,680 Speaker 1: talking about the person that was in that thing. That 1005 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:10,080 Speaker 1: actually the call sign was assigned to thee not necessarily 1006 00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,880 Speaker 1: that pilot. I don't know, don't I don't know I 1007 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:14,160 Speaker 1: would do it. If I had an air force, I 1008 00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,400 Speaker 1: would definitely just assigned call signs airplanes. I'm sure we'll 1009 00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,440 Speaker 1: get a lot of really angry emails about why that 1010 00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:25,320 Speaker 1: doesn't work. And Kim, Yeah, that's Kilmer. It's just that 1011 00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:27,120 Speaker 1: just is how I would do it if it were me. 1012 00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:32,480 Speaker 1: Because no track the planes, not the pilot. You know, 1013 00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:34,919 Speaker 1: it makes it harder for them to keep these sort 1014 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,400 Speaker 1: of logs of Okay, well you know Iceman is really 1015 00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:40,880 Speaker 1: crappy at this thing. Well actually, matter of fact, it 1016 00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,440 Speaker 1: turns out Iceman is just the plane. So yeah, and 1017 00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:47,720 Speaker 1: and and it's possible, Like I said, though, is that 1018 00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:52,000 Speaker 1: it maybe that it's it's that it's just these couple 1019 00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:56,200 Speaker 1: of guys that their numbers or their kills recorded by 1020 00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:59,640 Speaker 1: the North Vietnamese. You know, it's nine, seven and six. 1021 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,120 Speaker 1: He's particular gentleman that I just listed out. But of 1022 00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:07,280 Speaker 1: course on the U S side, those were all erroneously 1023 00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,800 Speaker 1: assigned over the Colonel Tomb, and so in the US 1024 00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,280 Speaker 1: books these guys are not as good. But then Tomb 1025 00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:18,200 Speaker 1: is taken, and I don't know, I really don't know. Yeah, 1026 00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,640 Speaker 1: it is really hard to say. I do have to say, though, 1027 00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,600 Speaker 1: there is one hitch that I came across in this 1028 00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,520 Speaker 1: entire story. By the way, this is kind of stepping 1029 00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,720 Speaker 1: outside of the theory section and onto Steve soapbox section, 1030 00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,000 Speaker 1: which I try not to do, but this one really 1031 00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:39,880 Speaker 1: made me mad, is I? In the In the telling 1032 00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:44,280 Speaker 1: of the story, we talked about the Hungarian doctor ist 1033 00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:48,040 Speaker 1: von top Sev. God, I'm butchering his name every time, 1034 00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:54,880 Speaker 1: and I apologize it, like, okay, anyway, the doctor is 1035 00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:59,200 Speaker 1: Stavan Well in everything that I had been reading for 1036 00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:02,280 Speaker 1: a long time, it talked about how the Hungarian doctor 1037 01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,560 Speaker 1: had gone and done the initial research and then followed 1038 01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:09,080 Speaker 1: by other people. But as we want to do, I said, well, 1039 01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:10,640 Speaker 1: I want to I want to learn some more about 1040 01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:12,440 Speaker 1: this guy. And I want to maybe read some of 1041 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,400 Speaker 1: his stuff and check him out. And I started following 1042 01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:19,280 Speaker 1: the path of him, and at first I started coming 1043 01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,240 Speaker 1: across these sites that were reviews of his books, and 1044 01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:26,360 Speaker 1: I got the feeling that maybe he curated them, because normally, 1045 01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:30,320 Speaker 1: when you get into a review site and you see 1046 01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:35,480 Speaker 1: other authors on there, they say, oh, doctor, the Hungarian 1047 01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,560 Speaker 1: Doctor is a great guy, blah blah blah, or the 1048 01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:42,240 Speaker 1: Hungarian Doctor is full of crap and here is why, 1049 01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:49,200 Speaker 1: and I've proved it. But instead these reviews said something like, uh, 1050 01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:54,240 Speaker 1: the Hungarian Doctor has got everything right in his book, 1051 01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,680 Speaker 1: and I got it all wrong in my book, and 1052 01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:01,560 Speaker 1: I am a horrible author and researcher and a giant 1053 01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:06,360 Speaker 1: pile of pooh as an author. Doctor, Well that's why 1054 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:08,960 Speaker 1: I thought, that's really funny. I think he's kind of 1055 01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:14,080 Speaker 1: curating this stuff. And he's also hugely prolific. I found 1056 01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:16,680 Speaker 1: at least a dozen books. It looks like he's putting 1057 01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,000 Speaker 1: out a book a year on a different kind of aircraft. 1058 01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:24,800 Speaker 1: Is apparently a pleasurist, right, Well, it appears that way 1059 01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:28,000 Speaker 1: because as I got onto stuff, I started reading, and 1060 01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,880 Speaker 1: there's one review that I found, uh, and it's on Amazon, 1061 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:36,280 Speaker 1: which is great, and it's his book about the Vietnam conflict. 1062 01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,640 Speaker 1: And in there's the ones that we sided as talking 1063 01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:43,360 Speaker 1: about Colonel tomb And basically what it said is that 1064 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:49,160 Speaker 1: he had taken and copied almost word for word, including 1065 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:53,080 Speaker 1: the front and rear covers of a book which in 1066 01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:57,280 Speaker 1: English is History of the People's Air Force of Vietnam. 1067 01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,600 Speaker 1: I can't pronounce it in the local dialect as I tried, 1068 01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:02,680 Speaker 1: and I just cut it out because it was really 1069 01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:08,040 Speaker 1: bad on my part. But basically he just straight up 1070 01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:12,919 Speaker 1: copied it and put it in English, and somehow that 1071 01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:18,320 Speaker 1: inserted him into the story. Sadly, it appears more and 1072 01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:22,280 Speaker 1: more these days. This is a common thing, the plagiarism. Um, 1073 01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,959 Speaker 1: have you what is the book? There's that book of 1074 01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,520 Speaker 1: out there called The Art of Not Giving An F. 1075 01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:34,400 Speaker 1: Have you guys seen this book? Okay, well, this book 1076 01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:37,000 Speaker 1: is out there. Well, I was at home talking to 1077 01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:38,640 Speaker 1: my wife, is like, oh my god, I can't believe 1078 01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:42,440 Speaker 1: I found this blatant thing of plagiarism. She's like, oh, dude, 1079 01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:44,560 Speaker 1: go on, look for that book, The Art of Not 1080 01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,600 Speaker 1: Giving an F and look for it on Amazon, and 1081 01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,880 Speaker 1: you'll find another version that hells almost an identical copy, 1082 01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:56,680 Speaker 1: almost an identical cover, and it's five bucks cheaper. So 1083 01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:59,960 Speaker 1: it appears that this is happening more and more and more, 1084 01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:04,000 Speaker 1: and somehow this guy ten twenty years ago did it 1085 01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:07,720 Speaker 1: and has become just he's just been swept up in 1086 01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:12,240 Speaker 1: the copy paste phenomena that is the Internet talking about 1087 01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,760 Speaker 1: stories like this. So I say that because pois and girls, 1088 01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,600 Speaker 1: you need to check your sources, because I almost was 1089 01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:21,560 Speaker 1: like and doctor the Hungarian doctors said, and then I 1090 01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,800 Speaker 1: found out my source was complete crap and it was 1091 01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,520 Speaker 1: not a good thing. Yeah, the Hungarian doctor might not 1092 01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:30,440 Speaker 1: have been wrong about any of this stuff. It's just 1093 01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:34,680 Speaker 1: that he just he never did the research copied at all, 1094 01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 1: so you can't really take credit. But ala Atlica is 1095 01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:40,160 Speaker 1: hopefully not leading astray. Yeah. Well, appears that others have 1096 01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,600 Speaker 1: gone and asked the same questions, so that it is 1097 01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:47,439 Speaker 1: still a valid mystery. The original author, yes, as well 1098 01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:51,200 Speaker 1: as Western historians have since followed and asked the question 1099 01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:53,040 Speaker 1: and tried to figure it out, So it is still 1100 01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:56,760 Speaker 1: truly we don't know. It is a puzzle, and yeah, 1101 01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,960 Speaker 1: people still are speculating about it. It's uh, I guess 1102 01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:03,280 Speaker 1: said Donna web pages that most people tended to look at. Yea. 1103 01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,120 Speaker 1: So at this point I want to know what the 1104 01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,360 Speaker 1: favorite theory for each of you. Well, Devin, you want 1105 01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:12,120 Speaker 1: to go first. Yeah, it was the airplanes favorite theory. 1106 01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,800 Speaker 1: The second to that would be that it's a it's 1107 01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:19,000 Speaker 1: a number of different pilots that just got lumped in together. 1108 01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:22,560 Speaker 1: I don't think there was the airplane because I don't 1109 01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:24,840 Speaker 1: think you'd want to name your plane Tomb. I don't 1110 01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:28,640 Speaker 1: think that's that's not conducive to good morale. But so 1111 01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:31,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with it was just a myth, the 1112 01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:35,440 Speaker 1: product of confusion among the second guys, and would maybe 1113 01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:37,800 Speaker 1: ate it along with it by the North Vietnamese A 1114 01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:40,280 Speaker 1: little bit too, could have been that it could have 1115 01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:41,600 Speaker 1: been one of those things where there was a little 1116 01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,960 Speaker 1: confusion and they're scratching their heads early on and going, wow, 1117 01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:48,040 Speaker 1: this is this Colonel Tomb. And of course there are sources, 1118 01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, because I'm sure there were agents, uh you know, 1119 01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:52,840 Speaker 1: I mean most of the guys doing the translating will 1120 01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,120 Speaker 1: probably Vietnamese, probably at least a few of them been 1121 01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:57,520 Speaker 1: formed to the North and they said, hey, there's just 1122 01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:01,080 Speaker 1: there's this scary guy named Colonel Tomb and then North 1123 01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:04,000 Speaker 1: is like, oh really, then he doesn't exist, but what 1124 01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,480 Speaker 1: the hell, We'll have a little fun with this. And 1125 01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:08,760 Speaker 1: it could have been a combination of those things. And 1126 01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:12,360 Speaker 1: I I really feel I kind of agree with you. 1127 01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:17,280 Speaker 1: I think that it is some combination of a myth, 1128 01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,800 Speaker 1: both on the part of the US and apart on 1129 01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,800 Speaker 1: the North Vietnamese. They don't know where it where it 1130 01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:26,479 Speaker 1: ends in that mix, but that's that's kind of where 1131 01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:30,439 Speaker 1: I think it's at. All. Right, Well, we're we're done 1132 01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:32,400 Speaker 1: with a fly over there, so we should probably get 1133 01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:35,960 Speaker 1: into the important details that I know everybody listens to 1134 01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,200 Speaker 1: the last couple of minutes to try and get a 1135 01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:39,920 Speaker 1: hold of, because this is what you love to hear 1136 01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:42,600 Speaker 1: from us, which is all of the how to find 1137 01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,840 Speaker 1: us stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, So how does somebody 1138 01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,200 Speaker 1: send us an email? Steve? Well, I'll tell you about that, 1139 01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:49,960 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna save that to the end, Joe, because 1140 01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:51,640 Speaker 1: that's the order is written on a piece of paper 1141 01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:55,040 Speaker 1: in front of me. I know, I'm I'm If it's 1142 01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:57,720 Speaker 1: not in order, I can't do it. So we of 1143 01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,080 Speaker 1: course are going to have links for this particular the 1144 01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:02,600 Speaker 1: story as well as all stories that we talked about 1145 01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:05,560 Speaker 1: on our website, and on that website you're gonna be 1146 01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:09,240 Speaker 1: able to download and stream the episode or any episode 1147 01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:12,640 Speaker 1: you'll also see on the website. On the right hand 1148 01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:16,360 Speaker 1: side there is an episode list which is in chronological order, 1149 01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:21,680 Speaker 1: as well as links to merch so t shirts, stickers, mugs, 1150 01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,320 Speaker 1: all that good stuff. That's all on our website, which 1151 01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:29,040 Speaker 1: is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. We are available for 1152 01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:32,439 Speaker 1: streaming a download just about everywhere that is out there. 1153 01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,760 Speaker 1: So if you're using Apple Podcasts, we're on there. If 1154 01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:40,240 Speaker 1: you're using Google Play, we're there. If you're using Stitcher, 1155 01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:45,080 Speaker 1: we're there. If you're on Stitcher Premium, which is really awesome, 1156 01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,760 Speaker 1: then we're there as well. Remember boys and girls, if 1157 01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:50,840 Speaker 1: you use stitch your premium, you will get the episodes 1158 01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:54,600 Speaker 1: four days early. You will also get them ad free 1159 01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:58,920 Speaker 1: and you will get bonus content. 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Speaking of pictures, 1169 01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:35,600 Speaker 1: we are also on Instagram where we are Thinking Sideways 1170 01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:39,320 Speaker 1: Podcast that is also going to be Devon putting. I 1171 01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:42,280 Speaker 1: was almost gonna say tweeting, but it is posting silly 1172 01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:47,360 Speaker 1: pictures and funny things. And we are also on Facebook 1173 01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:50,520 Speaker 1: where we have the Facebook group and the Facebook page, 1174 01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,960 Speaker 1: so you will like the page, you will join the group. 1175 01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,520 Speaker 1: To join the group, you have to answer the questions, 1176 01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:58,600 Speaker 1: at which point you'll get in, have all the fun 1177 01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,680 Speaker 1: discussions and meet all the other members who are who 1178 01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:04,000 Speaker 1: and they will become your new family. So you should 1179 01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:07,200 Speaker 1: join and join our new family. Yes, we are your 1180 01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:09,920 Speaker 1: only family. Yeah, they're better than your old family. You 1181 01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:14,520 Speaker 1: don't need them exactly. And as a family member, you're 1182 01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:16,720 Speaker 1: probably gonna want to get ahold of us directly, and 1183 01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,200 Speaker 1: you're more than welcome to do that by sending us 1184 01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:21,120 Speaker 1: an email. So if you send us an email at 1185 01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:25,559 Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com, you can send 1186 01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:30,839 Speaker 1: us emails with questions, with comments, with story suggestions, whatever, 1187 01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:33,080 Speaker 1: we'll get back to you. Sometimes it takes a little 1188 01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:35,400 Speaker 1: longer than others, especially with things that are going on, 1189 01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:38,280 Speaker 1: and we've been really busy lately, but we're still answering 1190 01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:40,880 Speaker 1: all those emails, So feel free to send us an 1191 01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:45,679 Speaker 1: email at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. And 1192 01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:50,080 Speaker 1: with all of that done, I think that we're done. Uh, 1193 01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:52,639 Speaker 1: that's the last of it. You want to make seventeen 1194 01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:54,360 Speaker 1: and you want to make twenty one? Which do you want? 1195 01:08:54,360 --> 01:09:01,120 Speaker 1: You guys, neither neither. Ya'll take a okay good because 1196 01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:03,639 Speaker 1: I'm afraid to fly. So I'm just gonna I'm gonna 1197 01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:05,400 Speaker 1: go to John Madden Way and I'm going to get 1198 01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:07,800 Speaker 1: on an amtrack. So we are all going to get 1199 01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,280 Speaker 1: out of here in our various forms of transport, and 1200 01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:13,040 Speaker 1: we will talk to you all next week to